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Apr 25, 1:21 PM
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This topic was born out of my Fullmetal Alchemist re-watch, speciffically something Maes Hughs said in response to Winry's worries that Ed and Al don't fill her in on their troubles that caught my eye

"Guys are creatures that express themselves more by their actions than with their words"

It got me thinking of something i've noticed when watching shounen vs shoujo anime

Most shounen anime tend to have a "show don't tell" aproach when it comes to character developement, adding subtle details in their behaviour and expressions that can sometimes be missed if one is not focused on that aspect of the story

While shoujo on the other hand tend to develope their characters with lots of exposition thru monologues, externalizing their emotions

I found it interesting how the 2 demographics reflect the differences in how men and women generally express themselve thru their storytelling styles

What are your thoughts on it? Which storytelling style do you prefere?

Personally i have a preference for shounen's style, i'm quite fascinated by human psychology and really enjoy trying to figure the characters out thru the subtle details scattered thruout a show, i also tend to express myself in what would be more typical of a guy more thru actions than words (maybe in part due to having more positive male rolemodels than female growing up)


Sorry i didn't compare seinen and josei as well, i haven't watched enough josei yet to be able to do so accurately
Apr 25, 1:27 PM
#2

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Television is devoid of any real intellectual content. Anime (like other forms of television) is almost devoid of any intellectual content. You are seriously delusional to think there is any "deep" intellectual meaning in anime/manga. There isn't any.
Apr 25, 1:45 PM
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DigiCat said:
Most shounen anime tend to have a "show don't tell" aproach

Uhhh... are you saying shounen characters don't spell out what they're thinking and feeling? And don't have extended internal monologues? I find that hard to believe.

I will say the shoujo anime I've seen do have more internal monologues, it feels like.

If we're just focusing on actions versus words, I'm fine with either, as long as they're not mind-numbingly simplistic. In fact, I want stories that skillfully interweave the two.
Apr 25, 2:19 PM
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inb4 someone triggers another gender war
Apr 25, 2:49 PM
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I agree with Hughes as far as real life is concerned, but as for there being a pattern in anime based on demographic categories.... hmm, can't say I've noticed. I did watch my fair share of shoujo and (battle) shonen and character growth tools like monologues, backstories and characters expressing themselves, describing their realisations and key development moments are present in both.

I kinda understand where you're coming from though, maybe it's more about the genres and that potentially some of them go in pair with shoujos more often than with shonen? Like, from the top of my head I would say "action" is a mostly shonen genre and not the focus of most shoujos that I can think of, and there certainly exist shows where fleshing out the characters is neglected and "actions speak louder than words" (ba dum tss). Just my two cents, haven't really gave this much thought before, so heads up for an interesting thread!
PhobossusApr 25, 2:56 PM
I see. Your only option is to revolutionize the world.
Apr 25, 3:05 PM
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fma was written by a women for girls only read it for the interesting looking male characters. any male reading or watching this shit is a homosexual drama club theater kid. something being "shounen" doesn't make it for men which is why things like black butler and kusuriya exist.
That quote is basically "women writing male characters" ie they just assume some random nonsense or stereotype that is romanticised for the female audience.
Apr 25, 5:52 PM
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Reply to Phobossus
I agree with Hughes as far as real life is concerned, but as for there being a pattern in anime based on demographic categories.... hmm, can't say I've noticed. I did watch my fair share of shoujo and (battle) shonen and character growth tools like monologues, backstories and characters expressing themselves, describing their realisations and key development moments are present in both.

I kinda understand where you're coming from though, maybe it's more about the genres and that potentially some of them go in pair with shoujos more often than with shonen? Like, from the top of my head I would say "action" is a mostly shonen genre and not the focus of most shoujos that I can think of, and there certainly exist shows where fleshing out the characters is neglected and "actions speak louder than words" (ba dum tss). Just my two cents, haven't really gave this much thought before, so heads up for an interesting thread!
@Phobossus Not to say monologues and backstories being told never happen in shounen, but they do tend to have a different vibe than shoujo, at least imo

I wouldn't say genre has as much of an impact as demographic

You used action as an example, i'd say even between a shounen action like say My Hero Academia and a shoujo action like Pretty Cure there's differences in how the characters are fleshed out, if we're looking at something specifically in the action genre, how the battles are layed out, what elements of it are the focal point

There's of course also exeptions, shounen that are more reminiscent of shoujo in style and viceversa, i'd say Whistle (shounen) and Banana Fish (shoujo) are good examples of this, though Banana Fish reminds me more of a seinen than shonen but you get my point
Apr 25, 6:00 PM
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Reply to Zarutaku
inb4 someone triggers another gender war
@Zarutaku honestly, same. I don't want another thread locked.


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Apr 25, 6:04 PM
#9

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Women and men like different things. I generally favor shounen/seinen. It is rarer for me to like a shoujo though few exceptions exist. Some shoujo gets male directors that can make it more appealing to men like Sailor Moon and Old Cardcaptor Sakura.

It is pretty easy to tell male vs female catered anime.

Tall pretty boys usually means the audience is shoujo/josei/broad audience

A focus on variably breasted women is shounen/seinen

Shoujo/josei carry most lgbt stuff

Shounen/Seinen typicaply involves a hero's journey format

The biggest difference between the 2 is how love interests are handled

In shoujo the guy is always the hot #1 where he never has to prove himself over others.

Men like the format like Mario bros where the unlikely hero gets the girl.


Apr 25, 6:13 PM

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Reply to zoomerReviewer
fma was written by a women for girls only read it for the interesting looking male characters. any male reading or watching this shit is a homosexual drama club theater kid. something being "shounen" doesn't make it for men which is why things like black butler and kusuriya exist.
That quote is basically "women writing male characters" ie they just assume some random nonsense or stereotype that is romanticised for the female audience.
@zoomerReviewer Wow what a man of culture! 🙄

Well you did open up another interesting aspect of writing so i'll entertain you with it

Yes men and women are of course writing from different perspectives, even if they're writing for the opposite demographic

A man is never going to 100% understand the neuances of being a woman just like a woman is never going to 100% understand the neuances of being a man, and that is going to reflect in their writing, hence why some subtle details of female behaviour might be missing in female characters written by men and viceversa with male characters written by women, however that does not make each any less well written

There's also anime that seemingly make no sense being part of a certain demographic, as you mentioned Black Butler, i'd add Vanitas to the mix, Kusuriya i'd say although it has become massively popular among a female audience it was originally intended, maybe not with specifically a male target audience in mind, but it's quite neutral having bothe elements that would appeal to men and women, obviously we have Jinshi, but have you seen the courtisanes?
Apr 25, 6:16 PM

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Reply to zoomerReviewer
fma was written by a women for girls only read it for the interesting looking male characters. any male reading or watching this shit is a homosexual drama club theater kid. something being "shounen" doesn't make it for men which is why things like black butler and kusuriya exist.
That quote is basically "women writing male characters" ie they just assume some random nonsense or stereotype that is romanticised for the female audience.
@zoomerReviewer
You are right about that. That quote was essentially a women writing what her idealized man would say. That being said I think fma did benefit from being a mass appeal series like frieren. The source was written by a woman, but the anime director was a man. That is a common theme of shoujo popular with men. Also, I think the concept of brotherhood hit well with the male audience considering the concept of bros has a positive connotation with most people.
I consider Apocrypha diaries and black butler to be full on shoujo.
Apr 25, 6:20 PM

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Reply to MoonBunny9297
@Zarutaku honestly, same. I don't want another thread locked.
@MoonBunny9297 I don't see how a thread about how storytelling styles can differ between demographics would start a gender war, but then again human stupidity has never failed to impress me, so i guess 🤞 the dumbdumbs don't show up and wreck stuff
Apr 25, 6:40 PM

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Reply to rohan121
@zoomerReviewer
You are right about that. That quote was essentially a women writing what her idealized man would say. That being said I think fma did benefit from being a mass appeal series like frieren. The source was written by a woman, but the anime director was a man. That is a common theme of shoujo popular with men. Also, I think the concept of brotherhood hit well with the male audience considering the concept of bros has a positive connotation with most people.
I consider Apocrypha diaries and black butler to be full on shoujo.
rohan121 said:
That quote was essentially a women writing what her idealized man would say

Agree to disagree i guess

Why is the concept of a man being open about how their minds work "idealized"?

I'd understand if it was coming from a character that was Ed and Al's age being a bit unrealistic, but Hughs is a mature adult, and a father on top of that, i wouldn't say it's idealized that he'd give advice to a kid/teen he's looking out for the same way he'd give to his own daughter if she were in that situation, of course personality traits also play a role, and given we're talking about Hughs, the doting father, i wouldn't say he was out of character to tell Winry that

And of course the concepts i mentioned starting the thread reflect the majority, not all

Not all men express themsels thru actions and not all women thru words, it's the same concept as demographics, be it a bit more complex
Apr 25, 7:00 PM
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I think it depends on what mood you're into. Shonen usually has more in-depth story lines and rivalries, yet when it tries to go for a more laid-back approach it usually fails. Whereas shojo usually isn't as in depth with a storyline, but I feel there are a lot better pulling off comedy and more laid back situations. In my opinion.
Apr 25, 7:14 PM

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Reply to rohan121
@zoomerReviewer
You are right about that. That quote was essentially a women writing what her idealized man would say. That being said I think fma did benefit from being a mass appeal series like frieren. The source was written by a woman, but the anime director was a man. That is a common theme of shoujo popular with men. Also, I think the concept of brotherhood hit well with the male audience considering the concept of bros has a positive connotation with most people.
I consider Apocrypha diaries and black butler to be full on shoujo.
@rohan121 But they're not Shoujo...
Apr 25, 7:19 PM

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Reply to LuxuriousHeart
@rohan121 But they're not Shoujo...
@LuxuriousHeart
Both are written by women, and see a large female audience.
Apr 25, 7:20 PM

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It's more of the drawing style for me. Shoujo easily pulls you into the world. With some of the panels, you can almost picture an iMAX 3d effect of the panels jumping out at you. Shoujo emphasizes the emotional impact of scenes. Screen tones, eyes being the windows to the soul, even drawing styles can shift in a manga to portray tonal shift. Panels flow into each other.

With Shounen and Seinen, it's rather boxy and straight forward. Not as much emotional depth to the story.
Apr 25, 7:21 PM

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@LuxuriousHeart
Both are written by women, and see a large female audience.
@rohan121 they're still aimed at men. Winx was written by a man, believe it or not, but it's obviously aimed at girls.
Apr 25, 7:29 PM

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I don't think shounen is more on the show don't tell aspect at all. i thought most of them like to externalise their emotions out loud with more direct actions on them. Show don't tell is more like showing the characters emotions through subtleties small nuances and body languages which I dont think most shounen do that. While shoujo anime shows more concern on their feelings rather than the actions. So they tend to internalize their feelings carefully and gently thus you would see more of the internalized monologues. In other words they are more introspective and less reckless or abrasive like most shounen do. And again shounen shows could also have monologues just like any demographic. One key different between them when it comes to the monologues is that shounen's ones tend to focus what kind of action they would take while shoujo mostly on what they feel at that moment.
                                                                   




Apr 25, 8:24 PM

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DigiCat said:
While shoujo on the other hand tend to develope their characters with lots of exposition thru monologues, externalizing their emotions

A lot of visual novels do that, including those like Clannad and Fate that target a male audience.
その目だれの目?
Apr 25, 8:26 PM

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Reply to rohan121
Women and men like different things. I generally favor shounen/seinen. It is rarer for me to like a shoujo though few exceptions exist. Some shoujo gets male directors that can make it more appealing to men like Sailor Moon and Old Cardcaptor Sakura.

It is pretty easy to tell male vs female catered anime.

Tall pretty boys usually means the audience is shoujo/josei/broad audience

A focus on variably breasted women is shounen/seinen

Shoujo/josei carry most lgbt stuff

Shounen/Seinen typicaply involves a hero's journey format

The biggest difference between the 2 is how love interests are handled

In shoujo the guy is always the hot #1 where he never has to prove himself over others.

Men like the format like Mario bros where the unlikely hero gets the girl.


rohan121 said:
Some shoujo gets male directors that can make it more appealing to men like Sailor Moon and Old Cardcaptor Sakura.

One of my favorite shoujo mangaka is Shinji Wada, a male.
その目だれの目?
Apr 25, 8:28 PM

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There is nothing to overthink here. Women are simply very verbal and like to talk a lot. Men don't and are fine with remaining silent and not responding to everything.
Apr 25, 8:32 PM

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Reply to DigiCat
@MoonBunny9297 I don't see how a thread about how storytelling styles can differ between demographics would start a gender war, but then again human stupidity has never failed to impress me, so i guess 🤞 the dumbdumbs don't show up and wreck stuff
@DigiCat Ah, hello! I enjoy shounen and shoujo equally. I believe both demographics have their strengths, what matters is the writing and execution.


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Apr 25, 8:38 PM

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I don't have much to comment on this topic besides saying I like both. I may have a slight preference for shoujo, but I'm happy to watch a good shounen show too.
Apr 25, 8:43 PM

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Reply to LuxuriousHeart
@rohan121 they're still aimed at men. Winx was written by a man, believe it or not, but it's obviously aimed at girls.
@LuxuriousHeart Yes, the creator of Winx is a man.


Code Lyoko, we'll reset it all
Code Lyoko, be there when you call
Code Lyoko, we will stand real tall
Code Lyoko, stronger after all
Apr 25, 9:21 PM

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Reply to Valyrian1124
There is nothing to overthink here. Women are simply very verbal and like to talk a lot. Men don't and are fine with remaining silent and not responding to everything.
@Valyrian1124 Based on what you are saying, I am glad that you managed to avoid a lot of the men I had to deal with who never stop yapping about themselves, some on this very forum.
Apr 26, 3:34 AM

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Reply to LuxuriousHeart
It's more of the drawing style for me. Shoujo easily pulls you into the world. With some of the panels, you can almost picture an iMAX 3d effect of the panels jumping out at you. Shoujo emphasizes the emotional impact of scenes. Screen tones, eyes being the windows to the soul, even drawing styles can shift in a manga to portray tonal shift. Panels flow into each other.

With Shounen and Seinen, it's rather boxy and straight forward. Not as much emotional depth to the story.
@LuxuriousHeart That is an interesting detail you pointed out about "eyes being the window of the soul", i've noticed that a lot in shoujo anime too with how it's scenes are directed, there's a lot of focus on the expressiveness of the eyes

I wouldn't say shounen/seinen are less deep for not using that as much though, they just have different ways of showing that emotional depth
Apr 26, 3:58 AM

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Reply to VivaceRex
I don't think shounen is more on the show don't tell aspect at all. i thought most of them like to externalise their emotions out loud with more direct actions on them. Show don't tell is more like showing the characters emotions through subtleties small nuances and body languages which I dont think most shounen do that. While shoujo anime shows more concern on their feelings rather than the actions. So they tend to internalize their feelings carefully and gently thus you would see more of the internalized monologues. In other words they are more introspective and less reckless or abrasive like most shounen do. And again shounen shows could also have monologues just like any demographic. One key different between them when it comes to the monologues is that shounen's ones tend to focus what kind of action they would take while shoujo mostly on what they feel at that moment.
@VivaceRex Agree to disagree on this

With shounen yes there are the flashy and direct actions, there is the loud screaming in battle, but i've found in many series there's also the subtlety in bodylanguage, and like i said at the start of the thread, it can get lost in the loud aesthetic most shounen (especially battle shounen) have, but that doesn't mean it's not there

With shoujo, you mentioned how internal monologues are used to be more introspective in it's storytelling, while yes that is true, internal monologues are still expressed in words when it comes to anime/manga, even though the other characters are only seeing the subtle bodylanguage and expressions, we the audience are getting that exposition thru the character's words to her/himself

That is more what i meant by show don't tell, there's many instances where a shounen character might have an internal monologue going thru their head but we don't hear it and are seeing things the same way other characters do

Then yes, shounen is also characterized by other monologues as you mentioned about the action, about the power systems, about the stratagies, which makes sense in a way, i mean, irl, are you more likely to hear a guy monologue about all the technical aspects of his new car or about his feelings? Same thing viceversa for women
Apr 26, 4:13 AM

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Reply to Lucifrost
DigiCat said:
While shoujo on the other hand tend to develope their characters with lots of exposition thru monologues, externalizing their emotions

A lot of visual novels do that, including those like Clannad and Fate that target a male audience.
@Lucifrost True, but also true visual novels are a different medium, i'd say exposition thru words is essential in a VN

A VN is a videogame genre, and videogame character tend to be a lot less expressive with simpler designs than say anime/manga as along with storytelling the main focus is also gameplay, so exposition thru words i'd say is key for a game that's goal is "choose your own story"

RPGs similarly rely on heavy exposition though more on the technical side than the emotional one

Then yes the new PS5 games have very detailed visulas all filmed in motion capture, but it's still quite different how the characters interact and express themselves from how a CGI show would look
Apr 26, 8:35 AM

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Reply to DigiCat
@Lucifrost True, but also true visual novels are a different medium, i'd say exposition thru words is essential in a VN

A VN is a videogame genre, and videogame character tend to be a lot less expressive with simpler designs than say anime/manga as along with storytelling the main focus is also gameplay, so exposition thru words i'd say is key for a game that's goal is "choose your own story"

RPGs similarly rely on heavy exposition though more on the technical side than the emotional one

Then yes the new PS5 games have very detailed visulas all filmed in motion capture, but it's still quite different how the characters interact and express themselves from how a CGI show would look
DigiCat said:
A VN is a videogame genre, and videogame character tend to be a lot less expressive with simpler designs than say anime/manga as along with storytelling the main focus is also gameplay, so exposition thru words i'd say is key for a game that's goal is "choose your own story"

Yes, but their anime adaptations often use the same forms of expression.
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Apr 26, 9:07 AM

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Reply to Lucifrost
DigiCat said:
A VN is a videogame genre, and videogame character tend to be a lot less expressive with simpler designs than say anime/manga as along with storytelling the main focus is also gameplay, so exposition thru words i'd say is key for a game that's goal is "choose your own story"

Yes, but their anime adaptations often use the same forms of expression.
@Lucifrost True, but they're in fact adapted from VNs which use that storytelling style, i'd say it's natural for an adaptation to follow as closely as possible the style of it's source material
Apr 26, 2:27 PM

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@NS2D Horror is a genre that lends itself to Shoujo. Horror and psychological
Apr 27, 4:56 AM

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The more emotional josei story telling is not that bad, but there's usually a point where it becomes utterly unrelatable, and I have no idea what the characters are yapping about.
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Apr 27, 11:14 AM

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Reply to rohan121
@zoomerReviewer
You are right about that. That quote was essentially a women writing what her idealized man would say. That being said I think fma did benefit from being a mass appeal series like frieren. The source was written by a woman, but the anime director was a man. That is a common theme of shoujo popular with men. Also, I think the concept of brotherhood hit well with the male audience considering the concept of bros has a positive connotation with most people.
I consider Apocrypha diaries and black butler to be full on shoujo.
@rohan121 This makes a lot of sense, especially with how Edward grows to 6 foot near the end of the series to finalise his character arc and make him a fully idealised perfected male.

Even if it’s feminine, the story has a lot of action and cool magical sht so young males will still be into it. Obviously not as hype as big 3 or smth like AoT/Death Note though
MalawaApr 27, 11:22 AM
Apr 27, 11:47 AM

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Reply to Malawa
@rohan121 This makes a lot of sense, especially with how Edward grows to 6 foot near the end of the series to finalise his character arc and make him a fully idealised perfected male.

Even if it’s feminine, the story has a lot of action and cool magical sht so young males will still be into it. Obviously not as hype as big 3 or smth like AoT/Death Note though
Malawa said:
not as hype as big 3 or smth like AoT/Death Note though


If that was the case FMA wouldn't be at top of MAL for such a long time and instead we would have a hype anime like "big 3 or smth like AoT/Death Note".
Apr 27, 11:48 AM

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NS2D said:
While shounen can have some truly spectacular backgrounds and grand super detailed battle scenes like Berserk


Berserk is seinen, not shounen, duh.
Apr 27, 2:55 PM

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I'm not sure I would differentiate shounen and shoujo storytelling style like that, but by your definition I like shounen style a bit more in anime. I love a good character exploration through monologues, but I prefer them in manga or books.
Apr 27, 3:49 PM

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Malawa said:
not as hype as big 3 or smth like AoT/Death Note though


If that was the case FMA wouldn't be at top of MAL for such a long time and instead we would have a hype anime like "big 3 or smth like AoT/Death Note".
@JoeChip We all know FMA:B fans deliberately review bombed other series and alt spammed FMA:B. Other fanbases just didn’t do that nearly as much and besides AoT/Death Note are more popular on MALA, One Piece manga has higher rating and has more sales than FMA along with big 3 + AoT etc.

But that’s not what I’m arguing. None of these metrics have anything to do with hype. What I’m saying FMA:B is just one of those series you watch because it’s well written throughout, it just doesn’t have crazy hype scenes or mystery bait (not that this is necessarily good) like other popular shonen.
Apr 28, 9:45 AM

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Yea, shonen go for overcoming one's struggles, usually during teen years, usually with plenty of action and NAKAMAAAAA power.

Shoujo go deeper on feelings, romance or relationship mechanics. They can be very emotional and very touching. Even a hybrid like Akatsuki no Yona does it better than your average shonen, and it delivers so well it's very enjoyable and memorable.

I've always found it easier to remember shoujo stories than shonen stories. There's not much to remember from shonen apart from the crucial battle with the very long build-up.

To be fair, there can be other fine elements to remember in shonen series, but world building or character depth are not unique to them...
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Apr 28, 10:53 AM

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I'm all for IT'S OVER 9000!!!type of show xD
All jokes aside,i enjoy them both equally
Or maybe Shounen just a bit more because of the way it portrays the characters compared to Shoujo
Apr 28, 11:38 AM

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Reply to Malawa
@JoeChip We all know FMA:B fans deliberately review bombed other series and alt spammed FMA:B. Other fanbases just didn’t do that nearly as much and besides AoT/Death Note are more popular on MALA, One Piece manga has higher rating and has more sales than FMA along with big 3 + AoT etc.

But that’s not what I’m arguing. None of these metrics have anything to do with hype. What I’m saying FMA:B is just one of those series you watch because it’s well written throughout, it just doesn’t have crazy hype scenes or mystery bait (not that this is necessarily good) like other popular shonen.
@Malawa

I would argue the truth behind the father of the brothers and his connection to the big reveal was enough to be called "mystery bait" but whatever.
Apr 28, 11:39 AM

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Reply to Eldinis
Yea, shonen go for overcoming one's struggles, usually during teen years, usually with plenty of action and NAKAMAAAAA power.

Shoujo go deeper on feelings, romance or relationship mechanics. They can be very emotional and very touching. Even a hybrid like Akatsuki no Yona does it better than your average shonen, and it delivers so well it's very enjoyable and memorable.

I've always found it easier to remember shoujo stories than shonen stories. There's not much to remember from shonen apart from the crucial battle with the very long build-up.

To be fair, there can be other fine elements to remember in shonen series, but world building or character depth are not unique to them...
@Eldinis

Unlike what you think not all shounen are battle shounen.
Apr 28, 11:44 AM

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Reply to JoeChip
@Eldinis

Unlike what you think not all shounen are battle shounen.
@JoeChip I never said the battle was outward.
Today, may Mercy find you.
מצא אותךתן ורחמים יהיום, מי יי.
Apr 28, 11:55 AM

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Reply to Eldinis
@JoeChip I never said the battle was outward.
@Eldinis

Uh-huh nice coping.........

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