Forum Settings
Forums
New
Pages (5) « First ... « 3 4 [5]
Apr 9, 5:30 PM

Offline
Jul 2013
9696
Shounen anime is very enjoyable to watch. I see no reason to hate on shounen fans.
Apr 9, 5:42 PM
Offline
Dec 2019
98
Reply to LuxuriousHeart
@Kira_Illusionist The only deflection is from you. You tried to pivot to culture when I pointed out sexism, that you initially implied didn't exist. That's a deflection tactic.

You're trying to use a group of people as some kind of gotcha, because you want to downplay sexism. Weird hill to die on. You're actually not beating the allegations this way. You're making me side-eye you even more. 👀
LuxuriousHeart said:
You tried to pivot to culture when I pointed out sexism, that you initially implied didn't exist.


That's called making comparisons to test the logic... If your logic says "Not liking an entire industry or medium, simply because of a stereotype of a group of people, is prejudice" hence by conclusion "Men not watching Shoujo is Sexism", then also by comparison "You who never watched a ____ industry film is racist towards ____ people"

That showed you how flawed your thinking was... By your thinking EVERYONE IS RACIST since everyone will have atleast 1 industry that they won't watch since life has limited time... Any logic that makes every person on planet racists or sexists is a flawed logic


Not understanding other people's choices and labelling them as bad people is THE ROOT CAUSE OF RACISM... Just because you don't understand Why men won't Shoujo, just because you don't understand why some people won't watch anime, just because you don't understand some people won't watch Telugu movies YOU labelled them as BAD PEOPLE... You already took 1 step forward to become a racist and I am trying to pull you back...

Just because people think differently than you, you label them as bad people.. That is Toxic mentality... Trump has this EXACT SAME MENTALITY...

If I showed our chat to any of my Indian friends, they would definetly label you as a racist towards Indian people, especially Telugu people
Apr 9, 5:49 PM
Offline
Dec 2019
98
Reply to LuxuriousHeart
@Kira_Illusionist So do people in every country. News at 5.
LuxuriousHeart said:
So do people in every country


What are you even referencing here???
Apr 9, 5:53 PM

Offline
Apr 2017
2443
Reply to Kira_Illusionist
@LuxuriousHeart

BEFORE continuing.... Are open to have an honest, open mined, GOOD FAITH conversation???

If yes, then let's start over from the beginning... Please answer it without deflecting

What is the evidence for sexism if Men avoid Shoujo???
@Kira_Illusionist the answer is a long one, so I'll start from the beginning at the point I was making.

My point doesn't apply to people new to anime or people that don't know a lot about it. My point applies to seasoned anime fans. People who have watched over 200 anime series. If nothing from the feminine demographic is there, you're subconsciously avoiding it. There's a reason for it. Especially because when you recommend based on their taste, they make up some other arbitrary reason for not watching it. And it's hypocritical. Even the Shounen only girlies do it as well. It's a process that goes:
- "Can we have more female protagonists?"
- *points to Shoujo and Josei*
- "No thx! ^_^ I don't like romance!"
- *points out that Shoujo is not just romance*
- "Yeah, but I like action series! ^_^" (despite them watching anime like: Frieren, Apothecary Diaries, Haikyuu, Oshi no Ko, Death Note, etc)
- *recommends action, and only action, Shoujo series*
- "Yeah, but I need the female lead to have this type of character: must be flawed because Mary Sues are bad, yet having flaws is unbearable to watch. Must be a girl boss and not an awkward lover, because awkward losers are unbearable. Yet they must be awkward losers so that we can relate to them, and really the girl boss characters are just not relatable, therefore they are terrible. And can they be a 5'11" short queen and a very skinny woman that's thiccc with three cs?"

That's when it gets frustrating. They'll contradict what they actually want... And even when they don't, they'll habe just very high standards. They'll want every Shoujo to be a Berserk level masterpiece before they even decide to read it, yet will read a 5/10 Shounen. Those standards are simply not there with Shounen. They're just not. And even male characters don't have those harsh standards. If Grittith were a woman, she would be one of the most hated anime characters. Because Griffith is a guy, he has a defense force. "Griffith did nothing wrong!"

Of course, whether the sexism is conscious or not. Who knows? Some people might not even recognize it. There's a guy I like on Twitter. He's known for having a very large Manga collection. Even he self reflected. He used to say "demographics don't matter", yet he would subconsciously avoid Shoujo and Josei. He realized it when he actually analyzed his collection. He made a conscious effort to look up Shoujo and Josei. And even still, he prefers Shounen and Seinen. However, now he's not writing off Shoujo and Josei as a automatically bad.

As for the car analogy above. The worst car I ever owned was a BMW, a German car. It wasn't good at all, and it was expensive to fix. We had to eventually just let it go. And good riddance. For such an expensive car, it was a piece of 💩.
Apr 9, 6:12 PM
Offline
Dec 2019
98
Reply to LuxuriousHeart
@Kira_Illusionist When did I suggest that either were likable. I simply said that they were all flawed. The male leads aren't victims. They're trash as well. A lot of people like flawed characters. Only, it seems that people tolerate guys being trash more than girls. Look at Eren vs Gabi. They're basically the same character. Ironically, Gabi changed for the better while Eren went out guns blazing. Yet and still, Gabi is very hated while Eren has hard-core defenders. "Eren did nothing wrong!" And "Griffith did nothing wrong!" Yet they hate Lucy, Sakura, Gabi, Hachi, etc. 🙃
@LuxuriousHeart

LuxuriousHeart said:
The male leads aren't victims


Female leads hurt male leads by lying, manipulation, leading on etc etc.. Your subjective opinion of "Male leads aren't victims" is irrelevant... Female leads that hurt male leads are the overwhelming majority of Shoujo female leads... Female leads hurting male leads is the norm... These are just facts... Having 10 female leads that are nice out of 1000 female leads is just depressing... 1% in any analysis will be just counted as error and the 99% will be just quoted as 100%...

100% of the female leads are just unlikeable and not worthy to root for... Ya there are some 10-20 female leads that might not fit into this... If you value Female Protagonists/Leads in your anime, then just avoid Shoujo, they just don't have it

Any exceptions you wanna give, please give them from Shoujo ANIME (not manga) from 2020 onwards... I am asking this because the last 5 years of Shoujo anime will have the highest bearing of Shoujo reputation in people's eyes
Apr 9, 6:21 PM
Offline
Dec 2019
98
Reply to LuxuriousHeart
@Kira_Illusionist the answer is a long one, so I'll start from the beginning at the point I was making.

My point doesn't apply to people new to anime or people that don't know a lot about it. My point applies to seasoned anime fans. People who have watched over 200 anime series. If nothing from the feminine demographic is there, you're subconsciously avoiding it. There's a reason for it. Especially because when you recommend based on their taste, they make up some other arbitrary reason for not watching it. And it's hypocritical. Even the Shounen only girlies do it as well. It's a process that goes:
- "Can we have more female protagonists?"
- *points to Shoujo and Josei*
- "No thx! ^_^ I don't like romance!"
- *points out that Shoujo is not just romance*
- "Yeah, but I like action series! ^_^" (despite them watching anime like: Frieren, Apothecary Diaries, Haikyuu, Oshi no Ko, Death Note, etc)
- *recommends action, and only action, Shoujo series*
- "Yeah, but I need the female lead to have this type of character: must be flawed because Mary Sues are bad, yet having flaws is unbearable to watch. Must be a girl boss and not an awkward lover, because awkward losers are unbearable. Yet they must be awkward losers so that we can relate to them, and really the girl boss characters are just not relatable, therefore they are terrible. And can they be a 5'11" short queen and a very skinny woman that's thiccc with three cs?"

That's when it gets frustrating. They'll contradict what they actually want... And even when they don't, they'll habe just very high standards. They'll want every Shoujo to be a Berserk level masterpiece before they even decide to read it, yet will read a 5/10 Shounen. Those standards are simply not there with Shounen. They're just not. And even male characters don't have those harsh standards. If Grittith were a woman, she would be one of the most hated anime characters. Because Griffith is a guy, he has a defense force. "Griffith did nothing wrong!"

Of course, whether the sexism is conscious or not. Who knows? Some people might not even recognize it. There's a guy I like on Twitter. He's known for having a very large Manga collection. Even he self reflected. He used to say "demographics don't matter", yet he would subconsciously avoid Shoujo and Josei. He realized it when he actually analyzed his collection. He made a conscious effort to look up Shoujo and Josei. And even still, he prefers Shounen and Seinen. However, now he's not writing off Shoujo and Josei as a automatically bad.

As for the car analogy above. The worst car I ever owned was a BMW, a German car. It wasn't good at all, and it was expensive to fix. We had to eventually just let it go. And good riddance. For such an expensive car, it was a piece of 💩.
@LuxuriousHeart
LuxuriousHeart said:
The worst car I ever owned was a BMW, a German car. It wasn't good at all, and it was expensive to fix. We had to eventually just let it go. And good riddance. For such an expensive car, it was a piece of 💩


What do you wanna say by this relating to my car anology??? What was the point???
Apr 9, 6:29 PM

Offline
Jan 2013
257
Reply to Kira_Illusionist
@LuxuriousHeart Maid sama, Boys over flowers, Ooku, Fruits basket, Kimi ni todoke , Nana are ALL OLD!!

Maid sama Male lead is a jerk, but he is still more liked than the Female lead... How unlikeable should the Female lead be of people liked a Jerk more than her??? same with Boys over flowers the jerk male lead is more liked than the female lead....

You don't see the toxicity of Nana female leads and how they played with all the male leads' feelings is beyond me... I heard in the manga one of the male leads died, ya any sane man will kill themselves if they loved Nana leads...

Toxic and weird Yandere is the fanservice... "Out of options, Satoko makes a desperate gamble: under the pretense of love at first sight, she asks him to marry her." from the synopsis... The female lead is a liar, manipulator who takes advantage of Male lead's feelings towards her and you are suggesting that she is a likeable female lead??? Lying and manipulation doesn't count as hurting in your book????

I am talking about Shoujo as a whole and you bring these weird exceptions which are not exceptions at all... I do have a Shoujo list of like 10 anime which has likeable female leads... But 10 anime out of 1000's Shoujo anime means Shoujo as a whole has unlikeable female leads

Now I understand why you are saying that I am deflecting because you are the one deflecting... You are the one who doesn't give straight answer to my questions, you are the one who doesn't admit that your logic will make you a racist so you keep on deflecting... You just laughed it off since you didn't have any answer

Stop deflecting and answer this... elaborate on how "I don't like Shoujo so I won't watch it" equals "EVERYTHING made by women and for women is TERRIBLE"

Again, you need to
@Kira_Illusionist
Kira_Illusionist said:
Maid sama, Boys over flowers, Ooku, Fruits basket, Kimi ni todoke , Nana are ALL OLD!!

I don't really get what difference it makes how old a shoujo in this discussion. It isn't like men/boys avoiding shoujo is a recent thing.

If the point is that modern shoujo sucks for men, they can just watch "old" shoujo. If it's because they can be bothered to search for stuff that didn't released very recently, then I want to point that Fruits Basket had an anime re-release from 2019 to 2021 and Ooku manga finished in 2020 and the anime aired in 2023.

I also don't get why so much focus is on bad female main characters. If the female mc are unlikeable, men can just focus on shoujo like Natsume Yuujinchou that has male mc and no real female mc. There are interest stacks in this site about shoujo with male mc, it isn't exactly a rarity.

Kira_Illusionist said:
"Out of options, Satoko makes a desperate gamble: under the pretense of love at first sight, she asks him to marry her." from the synopsis... The female lead is a liar, manipulator who takes advantage of Male lead's feelings towards her and you are suggesting that she is a likeable female lead??? Lying and manipulation doesn't count as hurting in your book????

This is Hotaru no Yomeiri, right? Sure, lying and manipulation isn't right, but let's not ignore that lying happened because her life was in risk, with ML being the among the villains, and the manipulation goes on because ML is psycho who would kill her if she didn't tread lightly.

And if most men find women who lies and manipulate completely unlikeable that they can't get over it to enjoy a story, then what about Mirai Nikki? Fmc Yuno is yandere and mmc Yukiteru is a pathetic boy who is scared, but dependent on Yuno and easily forgives her despite her actions crossing the line into manipulation and violence. Mirai Nikki is a shounen and it was very popular and the anime is still in #36 in the "most popular" list. Yuno is a favorite of over 28,000 members and many, if not most of them, are men.

Not that all shoujo fmc are like Satoko in the first place. If you point to two shoujo manga with a unlikeable fmc and someone else points to two with a likeable one, then which one is the majority? You'd need to check many shoujo to know.

Shoujo isn't a genre, it isn't a style, it's just the main market of the magazine it was published in. There are trends, yes, but there's diversity too, just like shounen. And if we're talking about manga too, since you pointed out a shoujo manga, then it's even easier to find the diversity.
Apr 9, 6:47 PM

Offline
Jan 2013
257
Reply to Kira_Illusionist
@LuxuriousHeart

LuxuriousHeart said:
The male leads aren't victims


Female leads hurt male leads by lying, manipulation, leading on etc etc.. Your subjective opinion of "Male leads aren't victims" is irrelevant... Female leads that hurt male leads are the overwhelming majority of Shoujo female leads... Female leads hurting male leads is the norm... These are just facts... Having 10 female leads that are nice out of 1000 female leads is just depressing... 1% in any analysis will be just counted as error and the 99% will be just quoted as 100%...

100% of the female leads are just unlikeable and not worthy to root for... Ya there are some 10-20 female leads that might not fit into this... If you value Female Protagonists/Leads in your anime, then just avoid Shoujo, they just don't have it

Any exceptions you wanna give, please give them from Shoujo ANIME (not manga) from 2020 onwards... I am asking this because the last 5 years of Shoujo anime will have the highest bearing of Shoujo reputation in people's eyes
@Kira_Illusionist
Kira_Illusionist said:
Having 10 female leads that are nice out of 1000 female leads is just depressing... 1% in any analysis will be just counted as error and the 99% will be just quoted as 100%...

Have you watched/read a 1000 shoujo with female leads for that statistics to be realistic? If you haven't, can you point out to a study that did, listed the series considered in the analysis and defined what is toxic female lead?

Kira_Illusionist said:
Any exceptions you wanna give, please give them from Shoujo ANIME (not manga) from 2020 onwards... I am asking this because the last 5 years of Shoujo anime will have the highest bearing of Shoujo reputation in people's eyes

You used a manga to point out a bad female lead. And, honestly, judging shoujo for its last 5 years while the evaluation of shounen includes older series is unfair. Specially considering shoujo releases a lot less anime per year than shounen.

And before you complain that I'm not pointing out any series in shoujo defenses, it's because I don't watch many anime nowadays and I'm not really updated on the releases so I can't think of anything on the top of my mind. But I already pointed out in another post that the last season of Fruit Basket aired in 2021 so it's inside your requirements.
Apr 9, 6:55 PM

Offline
Mar 2018
265
Kira_Illusionist said:
@LuxuriousHeart

BEFORE continuing.... Are open to have an honest, open mined, GOOD FAITH conversation???

If yes, then let's start over from the beginning... Please answer it without deflecting

What is the evidence for sexism if Men avoid Shoujo???

it's not about "sexism" necessarily it's that their taste is fucking dogshit. you are operating under this weird assumption that shonen is popular because it is better written when that's complete nonsense. it's popular because casuals like watching fights with pretty colors and shonen is heavily fighting skewed.

Like just look through your own list man, you sit here whining about shoujo but you don't even watch good anime and clearly have the taste of a 14 year old
getting jummed
Apr 9, 7:03 PM

Offline
Apr 2017
2443
Reply to Sen1793
@Kira_Illusionist
Kira_Illusionist said:
Maid sama, Boys over flowers, Ooku, Fruits basket, Kimi ni todoke , Nana are ALL OLD!!

I don't really get what difference it makes how old a shoujo in this discussion. It isn't like men/boys avoiding shoujo is a recent thing.

If the point is that modern shoujo sucks for men, they can just watch "old" shoujo. If it's because they can be bothered to search for stuff that didn't released very recently, then I want to point that Fruits Basket had an anime re-release from 2019 to 2021 and Ooku manga finished in 2020 and the anime aired in 2023.

I also don't get why so much focus is on bad female main characters. If the female mc are unlikeable, men can just focus on shoujo like Natsume Yuujinchou that has male mc and no real female mc. There are interest stacks in this site about shoujo with male mc, it isn't exactly a rarity.

Kira_Illusionist said:
"Out of options, Satoko makes a desperate gamble: under the pretense of love at first sight, she asks him to marry her." from the synopsis... The female lead is a liar, manipulator who takes advantage of Male lead's feelings towards her and you are suggesting that she is a likeable female lead??? Lying and manipulation doesn't count as hurting in your book????

This is Hotaru no Yomeiri, right? Sure, lying and manipulation isn't right, but let's not ignore that lying happened because her life was in risk, with ML being the among the villains, and the manipulation goes on because ML is psycho who would kill her if she didn't tread lightly.

And if most men find women who lies and manipulate completely unlikeable that they can't get over it to enjoy a story, then what about Mirai Nikki? Fmc Yuno is yandere and mmc Yukiteru is a pathetic boy who is scared, but dependent on Yuno and easily forgives her despite her actions crossing the line into manipulation and violence. Mirai Nikki is a shounen and it was very popular and the anime is still in #36 in the "most popular" list. Yuno is a favorite of over 28,000 members and many, if not most of them, are men.

Not that all shoujo fmc are like Satoko in the first place. If you point to two shoujo manga with a unlikeable fmc and someone else points to two with a likeable one, then which one is the majority? You'd need to check many shoujo to know.

Shoujo isn't a genre, it isn't a style, it's just the main market of the magazine it was published in. There are trends, yes, but there's diversity too, just like shounen. And if we're talking about manga too, since you pointed out a shoujo manga, then it's even easier to find the diversity.
@Sen1793 This is a larger part of the problem. They add new things and use any excuse to not watch Shoujo. They have a million standards for Shoujo that isn't there for the other demographics. If Apothecary Diaries was a Josei, they wouldn't read it.

The Mirai Nikki thing is something I'm confused about. Female characters get hated for being like a male character or just being a regular high school girl. Yet outright evil psychopaths that just demolish and dominate men are given that "step on me mommy! 🥵" treatment. It's so bizarre...
Pages (5) « First ... « 3 4 [5]

More topics from this board

» Controversies that overshadowed the anime itself

TheBlockernator - Jun 7

49 by thewiru »»
2 minutes ago

» Were the 20s able to create a new anime classic so far?

RobertBobert - 11 hours ago

23 by RudeRedis »»
29 minutes ago

» Mahou Shoujo Battle Royale (Round of 16) ( 1 2 3 4 )

TheMinkalex - Jun 4

196 by Lucifrost »»
37 minutes ago

» Good anime that just weren't given a fair shot because of their artstyle or other design choices? ( 1 2 )

TheBlockernator - Jun 11

52 by Deathko »»
48 minutes ago

» your opinions on english DUBS ( 1 2 )

FERASO - Jun 11

94 by KatanaCast »»
48 minutes ago
It’s time to ditch the text file.
Keep track of your anime easily by creating your own list.
Sign Up Login