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"Sakuga" trades the good for the noticeable

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Mar 20, 4:52 PM

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Feb 2016
13855
Reply to Gsarthotegga
@Lucifrost The ATI scene is great, and I'm trying to remember if Miyazaki ever animated a scene of that scale so well again. I don't remember anything quite like that in other Toei films that I saw. Some of his early animation and Ghibli kind of get there, but don't seem as playful or cramming in nearly so much action. Before Ghibli, Sherlock Hound had some decent group scenes, but I wasn't having the easiest time finding them when I was last looking, and they're simpler, anyway. The pirate ship is possibly the most dynamic space for something like this because of the vertical potential of the mast. A friend sent me this clip from Ramayana, which has pretty impressive animation for a large battlefield with many soldiers charging en masse, so that might be one to look into.

https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/66747
Gsarthotegga said:
The ATI scene is great, and I'm trying to remember if Miyazaki ever animated a scene of that scale so well again. I don't remember anything quite like that in other Toei films that I saw.

Orochi has my favorite battle scene, between Susanoo and the fire demon. Miyazaki didn't work one that movie though.
その目だれの目?
Mar 20, 5:54 PM

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Oct 2017
4745
Reply to 17999
@BilboBaggins365 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iExwO1v_V-s / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDEIPa9b3OU

You should give these videos a watch.

Also if you continue on in the paragraph of the article you posted and quoted from, it literally says, "The irony is that despite the fact that production costs are growing, Japanese animation workers regularly report that they are overworked, underpaid, and regularly face harassment in their jobs." So until we get more detailed information about where those added costs are going, I think OP's point stands. These budget increases may be because anime have ever worsening production schedules, meaning that companies have to hire more people halfway through to rush anime to completion, adding to their costs. So these budget increases may not actually be for a good or helpful reason at all. Plus the article is speaking to a supposed change that is only recently occurring, its to be seen if anything is actually changing for the better. These horrible practices have been occurring for decades, and the meagre increases in budgets we see every once in awhile are definitely not proportionate to the MASSIVE increase in the amount of work needing to be done.

When you ask, "compared to when". Between 1970 and 1995, the number of TV anime being created stayed pretty consistent, anywhere from 15-35. After 1995, the number of series began to rise exponentially. And by 2015, over 200 were being made every year! With a peak of 270. And the budgets and number of animators were never able to keep up. And despite all the profits, little of it is trickling down to the animators themselves.

https://imgur.com/43aqkIK
Wyatt said:
Salaries for animators have not gone up in proper proportion to the increase in work! But what you linked is a good point. Good to hear.
How do you define that? You would have to do a break down in how many cuts they were doing.

Wyatt said:
Not compared to the 70s, compared to ten years ago.
Dude A1 killed someone with overwork like 15 years ago.

Wyatt said:
Again, if Sakamoto Days had come out in 2015, no one would have complained about the animation.
Plenty of people complained about animation issues back in the day. You only think more people are complaining because there are just way more anime fans, online than a decade ago, so those complaints are more noticeable. I remember seeing the famous Pain and Naruto fight get torn to shreds.


17999 said:
Also if you continue on in the paragraph of the article you posted and quoted from, it literally says, "The irony is that despite the fact that production costs are growing, Japanese animation workers regularly report that they are overworked, underpaid, and regularly face harassment in their jobs.
Yeah....that doesn't refute anything I said. I didn't say anime was a worker's utopia, or that it was even decent or not that bad. I was disproving the argument that production costs never have risen. You are going off on something I never argued. My issue with OP, is that is he is claiming the industry was somehow better for animators, if anything the only thing I am saying is it always sucked.
17999 said:
I think OP's point stands.
This is all supposition however, I don’t think the changes in the industry have been that drastic, even if they were negative.

17999 said:
These budget increases may be because anime have ever worsening production schedules, meaning that companies have to hire more people halfway through to rush anime to completion, adding to their costs. So these budget increases may not actually be for a good or helpful reason at all
Well we don't know what the pay for individual shows are. I know CSM advertised itself as being higher paid and that production schedule, for that show, was better than usual. It's just a massive generalization, and hypotheticals. Unless you have industry connections, we don't actually know.

17999 said:
ll. Plus the article is speaking to a supposed change that is only recently occurring, its to be seen if anything is actually changing for the better. These horrible practices have been occurring for decades, and the meagre increases in budgets we see every once in awhile are definitely not proportionate to the MASSIVE increase in the amount of work needing to be done.
Yeah but, again I never said anything about it being for the better, only that it is currently occurring and yeah it's pretty recent, in response to the massive amount of influx of streaming money.

17999 said:
When you ask, "compared to when". Between 1970 and 1995, the number of TV anime being created stayed pretty consistent, anywhere from 15-35. After 1995, the number of series began to rise exponentially.
Yeah but animators were regularly treated like shit back then too. What is the point? This claim wasn't about "overproduction". It was arguing that industry standards got worse, which I don't see proof of.
BilboBaggins365Mar 20, 7:38 PM
Mar 20, 8:40 PM

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Mar 2014
331
Reply to BilboBaggins365
Wyatt said:
Salaries for animators have not gone up in proper proportion to the increase in work! But what you linked is a good point. Good to hear.
How do you define that? You would have to do a break down in how many cuts they were doing.

Wyatt said:
Not compared to the 70s, compared to ten years ago.
Dude A1 killed someone with overwork like 15 years ago.

Wyatt said:
Again, if Sakamoto Days had come out in 2015, no one would have complained about the animation.
Plenty of people complained about animation issues back in the day. You only think more people are complaining because there are just way more anime fans, online than a decade ago, so those complaints are more noticeable. I remember seeing the famous Pain and Naruto fight get torn to shreds.


17999 said:
Also if you continue on in the paragraph of the article you posted and quoted from, it literally says, "The irony is that despite the fact that production costs are growing, Japanese animation workers regularly report that they are overworked, underpaid, and regularly face harassment in their jobs.
Yeah....that doesn't refute anything I said. I didn't say anime was a worker's utopia, or that it was even decent or not that bad. I was disproving the argument that production costs never have risen. You are going off on something I never argued. My issue with OP, is that is he is claiming the industry was somehow better for animators, if anything the only thing I am saying is it always sucked.
17999 said:
I think OP's point stands.
This is all supposition however, I don’t think the changes in the industry have been that drastic, even if they were negative.

17999 said:
These budget increases may be because anime have ever worsening production schedules, meaning that companies have to hire more people halfway through to rush anime to completion, adding to their costs. So these budget increases may not actually be for a good or helpful reason at all
Well we don't know what the pay for individual shows are. I know CSM advertised itself as being higher paid and that production schedule, for that show, was better than usual. It's just a massive generalization, and hypotheticals. Unless you have industry connections, we don't actually know.

17999 said:
ll. Plus the article is speaking to a supposed change that is only recently occurring, its to be seen if anything is actually changing for the better. These horrible practices have been occurring for decades, and the meagre increases in budgets we see every once in awhile are definitely not proportionate to the MASSIVE increase in the amount of work needing to be done.
Yeah but, again I never said anything about it being for the better, only that it is currently occurring and yeah it's pretty recent, in response to the massive amount of influx of streaming money.

17999 said:
When you ask, "compared to when". Between 1970 and 1995, the number of TV anime being created stayed pretty consistent, anywhere from 15-35. After 1995, the number of series began to rise exponentially.
Yeah but animators were regularly treated like shit back then too. What is the point? This claim wasn't about "overproduction". It was arguing that industry standards got worse, which I don't see proof of.
@BilboBaggins365 The Pain and Naruto fight is the opposite. It IS sakuga. People complained because it was hideous. It was a rightful complaining. Now it's considered amazing of course. There was no complaining about Black Bullet's animation at the time. But it doesn't look much better than sakamoto days!

The industry being bad 15 years ago has nothing to do sakuga culture making it worse.

"My issue with OP, is that is he is claiming the industry was somehow better for animators, if anything the only thing I am saying is it always sucked."
It always sucked.

"You would have to do a break down in how many cuts they were doing."
Frames, not cuts. And that's evident. The increase is clear. Look at an episode of one piece from last week compared to one from 2010. Or an episode of Solo Leveling compared to an episode of sword art online.
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Mar 21, 7:39 AM

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Apr 2020
3719
Anime looks cool, with smooth movement and a lot of stuff happening --> People like that.

Nobody is consulting 9 AniTuber opinions, after watching a great moment like this, like you just did. And nobody's thinking about "Sakuga-Insider"-Stuff, when watching this scene. It's not important to most people. We just sat on the couch, going: "Wow. That looks awesome."

It's not that deep, my boy.
I know there are a lot of Anime-Intellectuals out there, nowadays, writing essays about things like this, but I think it's important to realize what we're actually talking about: A great looking piece of Animation quality that people enjoyed, cause it looked cool. That's pretty much it.
Merve2LoveMar 21, 7:51 AM
Mar 21, 9:21 AM
Offline
Mar 2018
14
Reply to BilboBaggins365
Wyatt said:
Salaries for animators have not gone up in proper proportion to the increase in work! But what you linked is a good point. Good to hear.
How do you define that? You would have to do a break down in how many cuts they were doing.

Wyatt said:
Not compared to the 70s, compared to ten years ago.
Dude A1 killed someone with overwork like 15 years ago.

Wyatt said:
Again, if Sakamoto Days had come out in 2015, no one would have complained about the animation.
Plenty of people complained about animation issues back in the day. You only think more people are complaining because there are just way more anime fans, online than a decade ago, so those complaints are more noticeable. I remember seeing the famous Pain and Naruto fight get torn to shreds.


17999 said:
Also if you continue on in the paragraph of the article you posted and quoted from, it literally says, "The irony is that despite the fact that production costs are growing, Japanese animation workers regularly report that they are overworked, underpaid, and regularly face harassment in their jobs.
Yeah....that doesn't refute anything I said. I didn't say anime was a worker's utopia, or that it was even decent or not that bad. I was disproving the argument that production costs never have risen. You are going off on something I never argued. My issue with OP, is that is he is claiming the industry was somehow better for animators, if anything the only thing I am saying is it always sucked.
17999 said:
I think OP's point stands.
This is all supposition however, I don’t think the changes in the industry have been that drastic, even if they were negative.

17999 said:
These budget increases may be because anime have ever worsening production schedules, meaning that companies have to hire more people halfway through to rush anime to completion, adding to their costs. So these budget increases may not actually be for a good or helpful reason at all
Well we don't know what the pay for individual shows are. I know CSM advertised itself as being higher paid and that production schedule, for that show, was better than usual. It's just a massive generalization, and hypotheticals. Unless you have industry connections, we don't actually know.

17999 said:
ll. Plus the article is speaking to a supposed change that is only recently occurring, its to be seen if anything is actually changing for the better. These horrible practices have been occurring for decades, and the meagre increases in budgets we see every once in awhile are definitely not proportionate to the MASSIVE increase in the amount of work needing to be done.
Yeah but, again I never said anything about it being for the better, only that it is currently occurring and yeah it's pretty recent, in response to the massive amount of influx of streaming money.

17999 said:
When you ask, "compared to when". Between 1970 and 1995, the number of TV anime being created stayed pretty consistent, anywhere from 15-35. After 1995, the number of series began to rise exponentially.
Yeah but animators were regularly treated like shit back then too. What is the point? This claim wasn't about "overproduction". It was arguing that industry standards got worse, which I don't see proof of.
@BilboBaggins365
BilboBaggins365 said:
Yeah....that doesn't refute anything I said. I didn't say anime was a worker's utopia, or that it was even decent or not that bad. I was disproving the argument that production costs never have risen. You are going off on something I never argued. My issue with OP, is that is he is claiming the industry was somehow better for animators, if anything the only thing I am saying is it always sucked.


Oh yeah, I was never implying that you were saying that the anime industry was a utopia and without issues. OPs point was never that production costs have never risen in the entire 70 year history of anime. His point is that budget increases are rare, and until recently, anime budgets weren't budging much, especially in proportion to the massive increase in workload. Which is what he meant by, "the budgets aren't going up". Because of the way funding anime works, the budgets for most anime are capped. Okada documents this in the video I sent. "For example, Okada said that if a Chinese company offered to pay for an entire $10 million budget, the production committee would turn their investment into $50,000 chunks across 20 different projects. In other words, to maintain control and profits, the Japanese companies on anime production committees are incentivized to use the surplus from foreign investment to fund other projects instead of increasing an individual title's budget." Things can suck more or less. We know the anime industry is chronically short of animators. We know the industry until very recently was pumping out an inhumanly high number of new titles. We know that the animation process in some ways is becoming more complex, involving more moving parts. And we know that because of sakuga, there are higher expectations on animators for these specific moments.

BilboBaggins365 said:
I don’t think the changes in the industry have been that drastic, even if they were negative.


You don't think the average number of tv anime going from 30 in 1995 to 200+ 15 years later is drastic? Especially knowing that even though anime are making record profits, little of that is going to helping the animators or budgets of individual shows? That the number of animators needed for these projects isn't keeping up?

BilboBaggins365 said:
Well we don't know what the pay for individual shows are. I know CSM advertised itself as being higher paid and that production schedule, for that show, was better than usual. It's just a massive generalization, and hypotheticals. Unless you have industry connections, we don't actually know.


Its true, I don't know the exact budgets for every show. BUT, we do have an industry insider talking about this stuff. Toshio Okada, whom I quoted earlier and who's in a video I sent in my previous message. As I mentioned earlier, he says that budgets for anime are capped. That if somebody invests in a show, instead of that money going into an individual anime, its spread out into 20, ensuring that as little money goes to the production of each individual anime as possible, to maximize profits.

BilboBaggins365 said:
Yeah but, again I never said anything about it being for the better, only that it is currently occurring and yeah it's pretty recent, in response to the massive amount of influx of streaming money.


Well if it isn't for the better, then things are getting worse, no? Wages and budgets are supposed to increase, especially in proportion to the work being done, if they aren't that's a negative thing as time goes on. And until we know that the increase you highlighted is actually helpful, I do still think the point stands.

BilboBaggins365 said:
Yeah but animators were regularly treated like shit back then too. What is the point? This claim wasn't about "overproduction". It was arguing that industry standards got worse, which I don't see proof of.


Of course they were. But again, you can be more or less treated like shit. I think an animator in the 80s working on a few projects would look at the production schedules and amount of shows needing to be worked on by modern animators in horror. Overproduction is absolutely central to the idea of industry standards getting worse. If the number of shows needing to get made increases 6 fold, without the necessary number of animators, and the necessary funds...everybody suffers more.
17999Mar 21, 10:45 AM
Mar 21, 9:25 AM
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Mar 2018
14
Reply to DesuMaiden
I don't really care about the animation quality of anime. It is kinda ridiculous to even debate about this on the Internet. What exactly is there to discuss about animation?
@DesuMaiden Well it is an animated medium...no?
Mar 21, 9:43 AM

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Jun 2015
2661
It often has those bright crosses for some reason
DeagoMar 21, 9:48 AM
Mar 21, 10:00 AM

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Jul 2015
13141
My different problem with sakuga was when second season of Jujutsu Kaisen came out, specifically during Sukuna vs. Mahoraga fight. In terms of animation it was amazing, but that's not where my problem is.
During the whole 10 minutes of screentime this fight took, the story was on complete standstill and nothing besides sakuga happened. It was equivalent of pod racing scene from Star Wars Phantom Menace.

Mar 21, 10:56 AM
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Mar 2018
14
Reply to Piromysl
My different problem with sakuga was when second season of Jujutsu Kaisen came out, specifically during Sukuna vs. Mahoraga fight. In terms of animation it was amazing, but that's not where my problem is.
During the whole 10 minutes of screentime this fight took, the story was on complete standstill and nothing besides sakuga happened. It was equivalent of pod racing scene from Star Wars Phantom Menace.
@Piromysl That podracing scene is AMAZING. Its both fun and showcases a bunch about Anakins character, Qui Gon hoisting anakin onto his shoulder when he wins is also really beautiful. The fight in JJK I heard was really great too. The fight is the climax of an insane arc right? Makes sense no?
Mar 21, 4:08 PM

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Oct 2017
4745
Reply to 17999
@BilboBaggins365
BilboBaggins365 said:
Yeah....that doesn't refute anything I said. I didn't say anime was a worker's utopia, or that it was even decent or not that bad. I was disproving the argument that production costs never have risen. You are going off on something I never argued. My issue with OP, is that is he is claiming the industry was somehow better for animators, if anything the only thing I am saying is it always sucked.


Oh yeah, I was never implying that you were saying that the anime industry was a utopia and without issues. OPs point was never that production costs have never risen in the entire 70 year history of anime. His point is that budget increases are rare, and until recently, anime budgets weren't budging much, especially in proportion to the massive increase in workload. Which is what he meant by, "the budgets aren't going up". Because of the way funding anime works, the budgets for most anime are capped. Okada documents this in the video I sent. "For example, Okada said that if a Chinese company offered to pay for an entire $10 million budget, the production committee would turn their investment into $50,000 chunks across 20 different projects. In other words, to maintain control and profits, the Japanese companies on anime production committees are incentivized to use the surplus from foreign investment to fund other projects instead of increasing an individual title's budget." Things can suck more or less. We know the anime industry is chronically short of animators. We know the industry until very recently was pumping out an inhumanly high number of new titles. We know that the animation process in some ways is becoming more complex, involving more moving parts. And we know that because of sakuga, there are higher expectations on animators for these specific moments.

BilboBaggins365 said:
I don’t think the changes in the industry have been that drastic, even if they were negative.


You don't think the average number of tv anime going from 30 in 1995 to 200+ 15 years later is drastic? Especially knowing that even though anime are making record profits, little of that is going to helping the animators or budgets of individual shows? That the number of animators needed for these projects isn't keeping up?

BilboBaggins365 said:
Well we don't know what the pay for individual shows are. I know CSM advertised itself as being higher paid and that production schedule, for that show, was better than usual. It's just a massive generalization, and hypotheticals. Unless you have industry connections, we don't actually know.


Its true, I don't know the exact budgets for every show. BUT, we do have an industry insider talking about this stuff. Toshio Okada, whom I quoted earlier and who's in a video I sent in my previous message. As I mentioned earlier, he says that budgets for anime are capped. That if somebody invests in a show, instead of that money going into an individual anime, its spread out into 20, ensuring that as little money goes to the production of each individual anime as possible, to maximize profits.

BilboBaggins365 said:
Yeah but, again I never said anything about it being for the better, only that it is currently occurring and yeah it's pretty recent, in response to the massive amount of influx of streaming money.


Well if it isn't for the better, then things are getting worse, no? Wages and budgets are supposed to increase, especially in proportion to the work being done, if they aren't that's a negative thing as time goes on. And until we know that the increase you highlighted is actually helpful, I do still think the point stands.

BilboBaggins365 said:
Yeah but animators were regularly treated like shit back then too. What is the point? This claim wasn't about "overproduction". It was arguing that industry standards got worse, which I don't see proof of.


Of course they were. But again, you can be more or less treated like shit. I think an animator in the 80s working on a few projects would look at the production schedules and amount of shows needing to be worked on by modern animators in horror. Overproduction is absolutely central to the idea of industry standards getting worse. If the number of shows needing to get made increases 6 fold, without the necessary number of animators, and the necessary funds...everybody suffers more.
17999 said:
In other words, to maintain control and profits, the Japanese companies on anime production committees are incentivized to use the surplus from foreign investment to fund other projects instead of increasing an individual title's budget."
Yeah however, individual projects are going up. They are siphoning more of that money to also yes green light more projects than ever before, however, that doesn't mean individual projects aren't going up either. If MAPPA is spending more on individual animators that has to come from somewhere, is it enough? No, however, again while I don't doubt a lot of the profits are just going to other projects, that doesn't mean production costs aren't going up. At the very least, compared to 2015, the cost to license individual episodes of anime has gone up by like 100k. Is all that money going back to production? Probably not? Is none of it going back to production well that isn't true either.

17999 said:
Of course they were. But again, you can be more or less treated like shit. I think an animator in the 80s working on a few projects would look at the production schedules and amount of shows needing to be worked on by modern animators in horror. Overproduction is absolutely central to the idea of industry standards getting worse. If the number of shows needing to get made increases 6 fold, without the necessary number of animators, and the necessary funds...everybody suffers more.
Well one that is why I asked, what date did he think was better, and OP gave me a date that was around the time A1 killed someone. At the end of the day, those few projects they were working on, often went all year, which no one is doing anymore now. Plus some of those OVAs, were pretty intensive compared to an average isekai title. Mecha back then was the big trend and that is much harder to animate than typical fantasy stuff. We don't actually know what their hours were, at least I don't have a source for such things.

17999 said:
Well if it isn't for the better, then things are getting worse, no? Wages and budgets are supposed to increase, especially in proportion to the work being done, if they aren't that's a negative thing as time goes on. And until we know that the increase you highlighted is actually helpful, I do still think the point stands.
Japan in general has had a problem with stagnant wages. What the anime industry is dealing with is pretty true in all industries over there.

Wyatt said:
The Pain and Naruto fight is the opposite. It IS sakuga. People complained because it was hideous. It was a rightful complaining. Now it's considered amazing of course. There was no complaining about Black Bullet's animation at the time. But it doesn't look much better than sakamoto days!
Rightful is a subjective value. Not everyone agrees with your idea that this form of animation is distracting, which I agree with before we get into that.

Secondly lots of people don't care about Sakamoto Days either, the show has been largely successful, just because some people online aren't happy with it doesn't mean it's not doing well. Plus didn't a lot of those comments come from Japanese fans? You have no idea what probably a lot of the comments were like from fans back then for older shows.

Wyatt said:
rames, not cuts. And that's evident. The increase is clear. Look at an episode of one piece from last week compared to one from 2010. Or an episode of Solo Leveling compared to an episode of sword art online.
Yeah fair my terminology is all over the place and not right. That said, OP wasn't a top tier animated series. You could compare FLCL to an average Silver Link isekai and make the same comment Retro fans do it all the time, by arguing all modern anime is shit based off some cherry picked examples? So which is it? The fact OP is trying to step up its animation doesn't indicate the industry is becoming more demanding for sakuga as a whole.


Wyatt said:
The industry being bad 15 years ago has nothing to do sakuga culture making it worse.
Well A1 has yet to kill another person working on Kaguya Sama Love is War or 86 at least.
Apr 1, 11:59 AM
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Mar 2018
14
Reply to BilboBaggins365
17999 said:
In other words, to maintain control and profits, the Japanese companies on anime production committees are incentivized to use the surplus from foreign investment to fund other projects instead of increasing an individual title's budget."
Yeah however, individual projects are going up. They are siphoning more of that money to also yes green light more projects than ever before, however, that doesn't mean individual projects aren't going up either. If MAPPA is spending more on individual animators that has to come from somewhere, is it enough? No, however, again while I don't doubt a lot of the profits are just going to other projects, that doesn't mean production costs aren't going up. At the very least, compared to 2015, the cost to license individual episodes of anime has gone up by like 100k. Is all that money going back to production? Probably not? Is none of it going back to production well that isn't true either.

17999 said:
Of course they were. But again, you can be more or less treated like shit. I think an animator in the 80s working on a few projects would look at the production schedules and amount of shows needing to be worked on by modern animators in horror. Overproduction is absolutely central to the idea of industry standards getting worse. If the number of shows needing to get made increases 6 fold, without the necessary number of animators, and the necessary funds...everybody suffers more.
Well one that is why I asked, what date did he think was better, and OP gave me a date that was around the time A1 killed someone. At the end of the day, those few projects they were working on, often went all year, which no one is doing anymore now. Plus some of those OVAs, were pretty intensive compared to an average isekai title. Mecha back then was the big trend and that is much harder to animate than typical fantasy stuff. We don't actually know what their hours were, at least I don't have a source for such things.

17999 said:
Well if it isn't for the better, then things are getting worse, no? Wages and budgets are supposed to increase, especially in proportion to the work being done, if they aren't that's a negative thing as time goes on. And until we know that the increase you highlighted is actually helpful, I do still think the point stands.
Japan in general has had a problem with stagnant wages. What the anime industry is dealing with is pretty true in all industries over there.

Wyatt said:
The Pain and Naruto fight is the opposite. It IS sakuga. People complained because it was hideous. It was a rightful complaining. Now it's considered amazing of course. There was no complaining about Black Bullet's animation at the time. But it doesn't look much better than sakamoto days!
Rightful is a subjective value. Not everyone agrees with your idea that this form of animation is distracting, which I agree with before we get into that.

Secondly lots of people don't care about Sakamoto Days either, the show has been largely successful, just because some people online aren't happy with it doesn't mean it's not doing well. Plus didn't a lot of those comments come from Japanese fans? You have no idea what probably a lot of the comments were like from fans back then for older shows.

Wyatt said:
rames, not cuts. And that's evident. The increase is clear. Look at an episode of one piece from last week compared to one from 2010. Or an episode of Solo Leveling compared to an episode of sword art online.
Yeah fair my terminology is all over the place and not right. That said, OP wasn't a top tier animated series. You could compare FLCL to an average Silver Link isekai and make the same comment Retro fans do it all the time, by arguing all modern anime is shit based off some cherry picked examples? So which is it? The fact OP is trying to step up its animation doesn't indicate the industry is becoming more demanding for sakuga as a whole.


Wyatt said:
The industry being bad 15 years ago has nothing to do sakuga culture making it worse.
Well A1 has yet to kill another person working on Kaguya Sama Love is War or 86 at least.
@BilboBaggins365
BilboBaggins365 said:
Yeah however, individual projects are going up. They are siphoning more of that money to also yes green light more projects than ever before, however, that doesn't mean individual projects aren't going up either. If MAPPA is spending more on individual animators that has to come from somewhere, is it enough? No, however, again while I don't doubt a lot of the profits are just going to other projects, that doesn't mean production costs aren't going up. At the very least, compared to 2015, the cost to license individual episodes of anime has gone up by like 100k. Is all that money going back to production? Probably not? Is none of it going back to production well that isn't true either.


As I said, I'd have to see more information on where those added costs are going in order to make a determination. These increases could actually be helpful, or be a bad sign. Also yeah again, I don't think OP's point was that budgets have never increased ever. But that the industry is extremely reticent to change its business practices and that budget increases are extremely rare. That despite all the new complicated technology being introduced, number of shows, and work needing to be done...budgets aren't keeping up even a little bit.

BilboBaggins365 said:
Plus some of those OVAs, were pretty intensive compared to an average isekai title. Mecha back then was the big trend and that is much harder to animate than typical fantasy stuff. We don't actually know what their hours were, at least I don't have a source for such things.


OVA's were also given very generous production schedules. I can't say I know the exact hours either. But you can agree with the idea that you can be treated better or worse, yes? I'm sure people who've been in the industry for 60 years would eagerly point out better or worse periods.

BilboBaggins365 said:
Japan in general has had a problem with stagnant wages. What the anime industry is dealing with is pretty true in all industries over there.


So you agree that things are getting worse?
Apr 1, 12:22 PM

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Jul 2013
9696
I don't really care about sakuga. I just watch the cool anime clips on Youtube.
Apr 1, 12:59 PM

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11835
I remember reacting negatively to many of these clips through the Wano arc. I don't mind the idea of "showing off", but I don't really think that a fight should look like this because there are LOTS of distractors, the view is confusing, and the fight losses a lot of impact and physicality (ironic since it abuses impact frames), which is worse because Zoro is a swordfighter and you don't feel the slays with all this lightning and aura overexposure.
Apr 1, 9:47 PM

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Oct 2017
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Reply to 17999
@BilboBaggins365
BilboBaggins365 said:
Yeah however, individual projects are going up. They are siphoning more of that money to also yes green light more projects than ever before, however, that doesn't mean individual projects aren't going up either. If MAPPA is spending more on individual animators that has to come from somewhere, is it enough? No, however, again while I don't doubt a lot of the profits are just going to other projects, that doesn't mean production costs aren't going up. At the very least, compared to 2015, the cost to license individual episodes of anime has gone up by like 100k. Is all that money going back to production? Probably not? Is none of it going back to production well that isn't true either.


As I said, I'd have to see more information on where those added costs are going in order to make a determination. These increases could actually be helpful, or be a bad sign. Also yeah again, I don't think OP's point was that budgets have never increased ever. But that the industry is extremely reticent to change its business practices and that budget increases are extremely rare. That despite all the new complicated technology being introduced, number of shows, and work needing to be done...budgets aren't keeping up even a little bit.

BilboBaggins365 said:
Plus some of those OVAs, were pretty intensive compared to an average isekai title. Mecha back then was the big trend and that is much harder to animate than typical fantasy stuff. We don't actually know what their hours were, at least I don't have a source for such things.


OVA's were also given very generous production schedules. I can't say I know the exact hours either. But you can agree with the idea that you can be treated better or worse, yes? I'm sure people who've been in the industry for 60 years would eagerly point out better or worse periods.

BilboBaggins365 said:
Japan in general has had a problem with stagnant wages. What the anime industry is dealing with is pretty true in all industries over there.


So you agree that things are getting worse?
17999 said:
But that the industry is extremely reticent to change its business practices and that budget increases are extremely rare.
Yes however, that is true of the past too. The reason why American animation studios, outsourced to Japan, during the 80s was they were known for cheap production costs. If anything, people have pivoted away from Japan, and gone to other places that are even cheaper.

17999 said:
That despite all the new complicated technology being introduced, number of shows, and work needing to be done...budgets aren't keeping up even a little bit.
It's not a claim you or I could actually make though and frankly it probably does depend on the studio and production/production committee.


17999 said:
OVA's were also given very generous production schedules.
Sure, they also feature way better animation than a lot of shows today too.

If you go off the production schedule of NGE, it's not much different than a series like Chainsaw Man. Those are two big anime for their respective decades.

17999 said:
So you agree that things are getting worse?
I agree that anime industry was always exploitive, still unfortunately is exploitive and that Japan, as a state, unlike what the Weebs think, has a lot of issues they are going to be dealing with in the future (as we all do) . I don't think I ever made a claim the anime industry is good, or that it's trending upward.

I just said I think saying the industry is now worse than even a decade ago, is a loaded take. That is it? Maybe there are slight budget differences, maybe the industry is getting increasingly overtaxed, however, at the end of the day, the timeline OP gave me for when the industry was better, was when Madhouse was operating a sweatshop just like MAPPA, and A1 was killing people with overwork.
Apr 2, 3:20 PM
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Mar 2018
14
Reply to BilboBaggins365
17999 said:
But that the industry is extremely reticent to change its business practices and that budget increases are extremely rare.
Yes however, that is true of the past too. The reason why American animation studios, outsourced to Japan, during the 80s was they were known for cheap production costs. If anything, people have pivoted away from Japan, and gone to other places that are even cheaper.

17999 said:
That despite all the new complicated technology being introduced, number of shows, and work needing to be done...budgets aren't keeping up even a little bit.
It's not a claim you or I could actually make though and frankly it probably does depend on the studio and production/production committee.


17999 said:
OVA's were also given very generous production schedules.
Sure, they also feature way better animation than a lot of shows today too.

If you go off the production schedule of NGE, it's not much different than a series like Chainsaw Man. Those are two big anime for their respective decades.

17999 said:
So you agree that things are getting worse?
I agree that anime industry was always exploitive, still unfortunately is exploitive and that Japan, as a state, unlike what the Weebs think, has a lot of issues they are going to be dealing with in the future (as we all do) . I don't think I ever made a claim the anime industry is good, or that it's trending upward.

I just said I think saying the industry is now worse than even a decade ago, is a loaded take. That is it? Maybe there are slight budget differences, maybe the industry is getting increasingly overtaxed, however, at the end of the day, the timeline OP gave me for when the industry was better, was when Madhouse was operating a sweatshop just like MAPPA, and A1 was killing people with overwork.
@BilboBaggins365 Totally get you. Thanks for the convo!
Apr 3, 5:02 PM

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Jul 2013
9696
Well I like looking at the Sakuga clips on Sakugabooru.
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