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"Sakuga" trades the good for the noticeable

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Mar 18, 3:29 PM
#1

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https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/128177

This clip here from One Piece is one of the most liked clips ever on Sakugabooru. In the comments you can see people praising it highly. But this animation is more distracting than good. The identically shaped cubes, known as yutapon cubes, are a sakuga nerd inside joke to notice whenever it comes up, but do they look good? Do they heighten the believability or emotion of the scene? Do those flashy impact frames communicate any feeling? Does Dragon Ball Z style purple aura even make sense in One Piece's world and aesthetic, or is it just a way for the animator to show off? These questions are not addressed in the mountain of praise set upon this clip simply for the amount of techniques and movement on display, not the quality or meaning of that movement.
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Mar 18, 3:50 PM
#2

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What is "distracting" about it? I'm not a One Piece fan and don't care about the series, so I'm not sure what to make of the aura and how much that fits, but I do recall OP being highly inconsistent, with long stretches of subpar animation and bursts of more impressive animation from a lot of key animators over the years. So what is an example you would give for a good animation clip from OP? I think if you picked one, then that might help the discussion a bit. Just curious where you're coming from or what you'd consider to be good animation in the series. I recall some animation from Naruto that had many fans complaining but people on Sakugabooru liked it. I would guess many people on Sakugabooru are not too interested in OP other than for its animation, so whether it's "consistent" is probably not an issue for them. It's more exciting and interesting than plenty of OP animation I've seen, and I don't have a problem with yutapon cubes.
Mar 18, 4:09 PM
#3

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Reply to Gsarthotegga
What is "distracting" about it? I'm not a One Piece fan and don't care about the series, so I'm not sure what to make of the aura and how much that fits, but I do recall OP being highly inconsistent, with long stretches of subpar animation and bursts of more impressive animation from a lot of key animators over the years. So what is an example you would give for a good animation clip from OP? I think if you picked one, then that might help the discussion a bit. Just curious where you're coming from or what you'd consider to be good animation in the series. I recall some animation from Naruto that had many fans complaining but people on Sakugabooru liked it. I would guess many people on Sakugabooru are not too interested in OP other than for its animation, so whether it's "consistent" is probably not an issue for them. It's more exciting and interesting than plenty of OP animation I've seen, and I don't have a problem with yutapon cubes.
@Gsarthotegga I don't really see how it's interesting, it's just gaudy and flashy. One Piece is 1000 episodes and I haven't seen an episode of it in like 10 years, but I like this scene: https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/56889 It's got a fast, fun pace.

One Piece is not the point, I can use other examples. A great piece of animation like the Soul Eater first opening is exciting, it creates an emotional atmosphere, it shows you something you've never seen before. https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/232559

Something like this on the other hand: https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/43122 doesn't convey any character or emotion or aesthetic beauty, just creates awe at the mere fact that someone drew all those frames, never mind if it actually looks any good. It serves as a pat on the back to Yutaka Nakamura, and a pat on the back to anyone able to recognize his trademarks, making people feel good catching these little things. A scene designed around emphasizing the mystery of the characters abilities, or the tension they feel in the fight, or the magnificent grace of the characters quick thinking and attacks would not be directed and animated in such a flashy, insubstantial way. It'd look more like this: https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/114104
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Mar 18, 4:13 PM
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I kind of sympathize with the "distracting"/"doesn't fit" complaint, but if the end result looks so darn beautiful, I'm willing to forgive quite a lot.

And I don't mind animators "showing off" here and there. They're working ungodly hours for pennies, cranking out content after content with few real opportunities to "get creative." If they let loose a little, I want to support and appreciate that, even if it breaks the anime a bit.

As for sakuga booru, it's a community with extremely-specific interests, so they are not going to talk about things like the story or believability. There's a reason why these clips have no audio. Let them have their fun.
Mar 18, 4:16 PM
#5
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A thing I really dislike about it is the focus on these individual scenes at the cost of a greater whole. Instead of the goal being that the entire episode has consistent animation, all the resources are put into these set piece moments so they can be turned into memeable gifs on twitter to further advertise the show and the individual animators. These nakamura inspired fight scenes also all feel the same. None of them feel specific or special to to the individual show they are apart of. Back in the day an animators individual trademarks were never meant to stick out like a sore thumb or override the tone and style of the show itself, but to add flourishes to the animation to make it more interesting, more fun, and to push the boundaries of the anime style.
Mar 18, 4:22 PM
#6

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Reply to perseii
I kind of sympathize with the "distracting"/"doesn't fit" complaint, but if the end result looks so darn beautiful, I'm willing to forgive quite a lot.

And I don't mind animators "showing off" here and there. They're working ungodly hours for pennies, cranking out content after content with few real opportunities to "get creative." If they let loose a little, I want to support and appreciate that, even if it breaks the anime a bit.

As for sakuga booru, it's a community with extremely-specific interests, so they are not going to talk about things like the story or believability. There's a reason why these clips have no audio. Let them have their fun.
@perseii The problem is it’s not at all victimless. First of all artistically, the popularity of these kinds of share ready clips promotes shows breaking their own internal logic for the sake of making a viral cut. Secondly in terms of business practices, it’s now expected more than ever for popular action series to have these back breaking scenes. You think the animators are getting paid well for that? Not a chance. A show like Sakamoto days would have considered to have perfectly fine animation ten years ago, but now people are used to the insane level of frames in JJK, which was a result of seriously abusive work practices and under paying. People say Sakamoto says is hideous because of that comparison, but both shows have the same budget. That money is spread dangerously thin to make everyone’s favorite badass clips. It has very little to do with letting animators have fun. And whenever it does, the director should guide their fun towards the good of the final product. That’s the directors job
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Mar 18, 5:38 PM
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Reply to Wyatt
@perseii The problem is it’s not at all victimless. First of all artistically, the popularity of these kinds of share ready clips promotes shows breaking their own internal logic for the sake of making a viral cut. Secondly in terms of business practices, it’s now expected more than ever for popular action series to have these back breaking scenes. You think the animators are getting paid well for that? Not a chance. A show like Sakamoto days would have considered to have perfectly fine animation ten years ago, but now people are used to the insane level of frames in JJK, which was a result of seriously abusive work practices and under paying. People say Sakamoto says is hideous because of that comparison, but both shows have the same budget. That money is spread dangerously thin to make everyone’s favorite badass clips. It has very little to do with letting animators have fun. And whenever it does, the director should guide their fun towards the good of the final product. That’s the directors job
Wyatt said:
which was a result of seriously abusive work practices and under paying.
That's the entire industry though? I don't get what you are arguing in this context. MAPPA is not worse than most of the industry, they are just more famous due to the IPs they are adapting, and the amount of employees they have. Everything MAPPA has been accused of you can find similar stories everywhere.

I do agree, just simply having fast pace blurs isn't what every action anime should be going for. It works for some shows though. Still the push for sakuga isn't causing abuse, lots of works, that have less than amazing productions are being pushed to the limit to compensate on time or talent.

Also kinda funny you posted this thread, considering the last one you posted.
BilboBaggins365Mar 18, 5:42 PM
Mar 18, 8:11 PM
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Reply to Wyatt
@Gsarthotegga I don't really see how it's interesting, it's just gaudy and flashy. One Piece is 1000 episodes and I haven't seen an episode of it in like 10 years, but I like this scene: https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/56889 It's got a fast, fun pace.

One Piece is not the point, I can use other examples. A great piece of animation like the Soul Eater first opening is exciting, it creates an emotional atmosphere, it shows you something you've never seen before. https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/232559

Something like this on the other hand: https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/43122 doesn't convey any character or emotion or aesthetic beauty, just creates awe at the mere fact that someone drew all those frames, never mind if it actually looks any good. It serves as a pat on the back to Yutaka Nakamura, and a pat on the back to anyone able to recognize his trademarks, making people feel good catching these little things. A scene designed around emphasizing the mystery of the characters abilities, or the tension they feel in the fight, or the magnificent grace of the characters quick thinking and attacks would not be directed and animated in such a flashy, insubstantial way. It'd look more like this: https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/114104
Wyatt said:
creates awe at the mere fact that someone drew all those frames

Animal Treasure Island has a scene like that. 😁
https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/230591
その目だれの目?
Mar 18, 8:41 PM
#9
lagom
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>or is it just a way for the animator to show off?

do you even know that sakuga means the animation style of an animator too? and there are animation styles that become so influential that other animators copy them like yutapon cubes here
Mar 18, 9:03 PM

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Reply to BilboBaggins365
Wyatt said:
which was a result of seriously abusive work practices and under paying.
That's the entire industry though? I don't get what you are arguing in this context. MAPPA is not worse than most of the industry, they are just more famous due to the IPs they are adapting, and the amount of employees they have. Everything MAPPA has been accused of you can find similar stories everywhere.

I do agree, just simply having fast pace blurs isn't what every action anime should be going for. It works for some shows though. Still the push for sakuga isn't causing abuse, lots of works, that have less than amazing productions are being pushed to the limit to compensate on time or talent.

Also kinda funny you posted this thread, considering the last one you posted.
@BilboBaggins365 Anime has had systemic problems with underpaying for decades. But the budgets are not going up, and the expectations for animator labor ARE. That's why an increase in these showy sakuga scenes does actually make it worse. If your boss pays you 50 cents for 4 hours of work, to animate a scene to the standard quality of an anime, then thats abusive. If your boss pays you 55 cents to work for 30 hours, to "make a scene like the one in Jujutsu Kaisen", that's worse.

Why is it funny I posted this thread considering the last one I posted.
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Mar 18, 9:05 PM

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Reply to Lucifrost
Wyatt said:
creates awe at the mere fact that someone drew all those frames

Animal Treasure Island has a scene like that. 😁
https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/230591
@Lucifrost This is a jovial, fun and kinetic scene. It's fantastic. Look at that low angle when the girl is falling and barely holding on. So suspenseful. Not at all like Nakamura stuff.
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Mar 18, 9:05 PM

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Reply to deg
>or is it just a way for the animator to show off?

do you even know that sakuga means the animation style of an animator too? and there are animation styles that become so influential that other animators copy them like yutapon cubes here
@deg I'm not sure what your point is here. Yutapon cubes are ugly and unimmersive, they serve mostly as a nerd in joke and as a way to save time.
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Mar 18, 9:24 PM

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Perhaps inconsequential is a more appropiate word than distracting in these cases

That first scene lasts 30 seconds and I agree it's got gaudy and flashy colors (and flashy isn't bad, bad taste in palette choice it's the problem) because it dresses up the fact not much happens. It's the typical "hype media" fight sequence, with no technique, no key personality details in the movement. You could even argue both characters are "inmobile" the whole sequence, one standing receiving the attack, the other lunging forward as if he's floating, in the style of an extremely sophisticated powerpoint presentation. The pretty after effects do not elevate what's happening behind, they are there just hide the lack of eventfulness.

The Luffy scene, on the other hand, it's a lot shorter, but many things are happening, there's a whole narrative and tells me a lot about the characters without having seen One Piece (I haven't but I know who he is anyway). My only complaint is the awkward cut between Luffy launching himself and the crash (as if it was done by different teams), but a scene with a lot of weight and character.
"Chimp in state of nature never jerks off, but in captivity he does, wat does this mean? In state of nature he’s too busy, to put plainly. He is concerned with mastering space: solving problem of life in and under trees, mastering what tools he can, mastering social relations in the jockeying for power and status. Deprived of this drive to development and self-increase he devolves to pointless masturbation, in captivity, where he senses he is in owned space and therefore the futility of all his efforts and all his actions."
Mar 18, 10:12 PM

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Reply to Wyatt
@perseii The problem is it’s not at all victimless. First of all artistically, the popularity of these kinds of share ready clips promotes shows breaking their own internal logic for the sake of making a viral cut. Secondly in terms of business practices, it’s now expected more than ever for popular action series to have these back breaking scenes. You think the animators are getting paid well for that? Not a chance. A show like Sakamoto days would have considered to have perfectly fine animation ten years ago, but now people are used to the insane level of frames in JJK, which was a result of seriously abusive work practices and under paying. People say Sakamoto says is hideous because of that comparison, but both shows have the same budget. That money is spread dangerously thin to make everyone’s favorite badass clips. It has very little to do with letting animators have fun. And whenever it does, the director should guide their fun towards the good of the final product. That’s the directors job
Wyatt said:
First of all artistically, the popularity of these kinds of share ready clips promotes shows breaking their own internal logic for the sake of making a viral cut.

Like I said, I understand the complaint, but I think it's a reasonable trade-off. It's still an accomplishment and it's pleasing to the eye, at the cost of visual consistency. If it breaks story consistency, yeah, I'd probably be less forgiving.

Wyatt said:
Secondly in terms of business practices, it’s now expected more than ever for popular action series to have these back breaking scenes.

Yes, people may be demanding more, better, "JJK level" animation from blockbuster anime these days, and that places an extra burden on the animators. But this "arms race" is a separate issue from the "distracting" issue, no? Animators will be asked to pull off superhuman feats all the same, and that has little to do with how exactly the animation looks.

I will admit that I haven't considered the scenario where animators are pressured (by the money-men or by themselves) to break their own art style, specifically to copy some other popular show: "Make this look exactly like that scene from JJK." That is a dumb idea and doesn't do anyone good, yes.
Mar 18, 10:22 PM

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Reply to Wyatt
@deg I'm not sure what your point is here. Yutapon cubes are ugly and unimmersive, they serve mostly as a nerd in joke and as a way to save time.
Wyatt said:
Yutapon cubes are ugly and unimmersive, they serve mostly as a nerd in joke and as a way to save time.

It seems to me that you mainly have a problem with Yutapon cubes period, not so much about how it fits into One Piece.

It's fine to not like certain animation styles and techniques, but I don't think you should characterize it as "distracting" or "damaging the emotions and believability of a scene." I personally don't see anything inherently bad about it. It's mostly a matter of personal taste by that point.
Mar 18, 10:55 PM

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Reply to perseii
Wyatt said:
Yutapon cubes are ugly and unimmersive, they serve mostly as a nerd in joke and as a way to save time.

It seems to me that you mainly have a problem with Yutapon cubes period, not so much about how it fits into One Piece.

It's fine to not like certain animation styles and techniques, but I don't think you should characterize it as "distracting" or "damaging the emotions and believability of a scene." I personally don't see anything inherently bad about it. It's mostly a matter of personal taste by that point.
@perseii It's inherently bad because it's ugly and because it's unrealistic. Obviously some unrealistic techniques are good, like squash and stretch. But this isn't unrealism for expression. It's just weird featureless cubes.
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Mar 18, 10:56 PM

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Reply to Rissenicus
Perhaps inconsequential is a more appropiate word than distracting in these cases

That first scene lasts 30 seconds and I agree it's got gaudy and flashy colors (and flashy isn't bad, bad taste in palette choice it's the problem) because it dresses up the fact not much happens. It's the typical "hype media" fight sequence, with no technique, no key personality details in the movement. You could even argue both characters are "inmobile" the whole sequence, one standing receiving the attack, the other lunging forward as if he's floating, in the style of an extremely sophisticated powerpoint presentation. The pretty after effects do not elevate what's happening behind, they are there just hide the lack of eventfulness.

The Luffy scene, on the other hand, it's a lot shorter, but many things are happening, there's a whole narrative and tells me a lot about the characters without having seen One Piece (I haven't but I know who he is anyway). My only complaint is the awkward cut between Luffy launching himself and the crash (as if it was done by different teams), but a scene with a lot of weight and character.
@Rissenicus These are very good points. But I think it is also distracting in addition to being inconsequential. Thank you for your analysis.
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Mar 18, 10:57 PM

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Reply to perseii
Wyatt said:
First of all artistically, the popularity of these kinds of share ready clips promotes shows breaking their own internal logic for the sake of making a viral cut.

Like I said, I understand the complaint, but I think it's a reasonable trade-off. It's still an accomplishment and it's pleasing to the eye, at the cost of visual consistency. If it breaks story consistency, yeah, I'd probably be less forgiving.

Wyatt said:
Secondly in terms of business practices, it’s now expected more than ever for popular action series to have these back breaking scenes.

Yes, people may be demanding more, better, "JJK level" animation from blockbuster anime these days, and that places an extra burden on the animators. But this "arms race" is a separate issue from the "distracting" issue, no? Animators will be asked to pull off superhuman feats all the same, and that has little to do with how exactly the animation looks.

I will admit that I haven't considered the scenario where animators are pressured (by the money-men or by themselves) to break their own art style, specifically to copy some other popular show: "Make this look exactly like that scene from JJK." That is a dumb idea and doesn't do anyone good, yes.
@perseii I don't think its pleasing to the eye at all. That's an important distinction for me.

"But this "arms race" is a separate issue from the "distracting" issue, no?" I only brought it up because you said let the animators have their fun. So I was saying, well that argument doesn't hold up because this isn't fun.
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Mar 18, 11:07 PM

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Reply to Wyatt
@perseii It's inherently bad because it's ugly and because it's unrealistic. Obviously some unrealistic techniques are good, like squash and stretch. But this isn't unrealism for expression. It's just weird featureless cubes.
Wyatt said:
It's inherently bad because it's ugly and because it's unrealistic.

Well, again, calling something ugly is an opinion and a matter of taste...

Obviously some unrealistic techniques are good, like squash and stretch. But this isn't unrealism for expression. It's just weird featureless cubes.

Oh? Why are squash-and-stretch good but "featureless cubes" bad? Why are featureless cubes not "unrealism for expression"?

Is it because it saves time? Why can't a technique save time but also be creative and expressive?
Mar 18, 11:18 PM

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Reply to Wyatt
@perseii I don't think its pleasing to the eye at all. That's an important distinction for me.

"But this "arms race" is a separate issue from the "distracting" issue, no?" I only brought it up because you said let the animators have their fun. So I was saying, well that argument doesn't hold up because this isn't fun.
Wyatt said:
I only brought it up because you said let the animators have their fun.

I didn't quite say that. I said let animators break their art style a bit to express themselves and flex their creative muscles. I think that would be better than completely denying the animators from ever deviating from the established style guide. Maybe this is just wishful thinking.

I did say "let them have their fun," but I was talking about the sakuga nerds over at sakuga booru. If they find joy in analyzing and gushing over technical aspects, let them.
Mar 18, 11:25 PM

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Reply to perseii
Wyatt said:
It's inherently bad because it's ugly and because it's unrealistic.

Well, again, calling something ugly is an opinion and a matter of taste...

Obviously some unrealistic techniques are good, like squash and stretch. But this isn't unrealism for expression. It's just weird featureless cubes.

Oh? Why are squash-and-stretch good but "featureless cubes" bad? Why are featureless cubes not "unrealism for expression"?

Is it because it saves time? Why can't a technique save time but also be creative and expressive?
@perseii Featureless cubes don't express anything, that's why! Calling something ugly is a matter of taste, sure, but not more than anything else.
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Mar 18, 11:26 PM

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Reply to perseii
Wyatt said:
I only brought it up because you said let the animators have their fun.

I didn't quite say that. I said let animators break their art style a bit to express themselves and flex their creative muscles. I think that would be better than completely denying the animators from ever deviating from the established style guide. Maybe this is just wishful thinking.

I did say "let them have their fun," but I was talking about the sakuga nerds over at sakuga booru. If they find joy in analyzing and gushing over technical aspects, let them.
@perseii
"
I didn't quite say that. I said let animators break their art style a bit to express themselves and flex their creative muscles. I think that would be better than completely denying the animators from ever deviating from the established style guide. Maybe this is just wishful thinking."

There's a middle ground between that and showboating IMO. Yoshinori Kanada cared a lot about personal expression, but he always did it in fun, exciting ways that improved the experience of watching the show.
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Mar 19, 12:08 AM

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Reply to Wyatt
@perseii Featureless cubes don't express anything, that's why! Calling something ugly is a matter of taste, sure, but not more than anything else.
Wyatt said:
Featureless cubes don't express anything, that's why!

They're expressing chunks of ground and buildings breaking apart on a large scale in a satisfying way... What are they supposed to be expressing??

I don't know much or particularly care about this technique, but I still don't understand what could be inherently bad or lacking about this. I liked seeing it in Kekkai Sensen and Mob Psycho... I'll leave it at that.
Mar 19, 3:34 AM

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Not sure Wyatt you are talking about.
Mar 19, 3:53 AM
lagom
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Reply to Wyatt
@deg I'm not sure what your point is here. Yutapon cubes are ugly and unimmersive, they serve mostly as a nerd in joke and as a way to save time.
@Wyatt

>nerd in joke

thats just your belief on the matter while the sakuga community calls it artistic animation style
Mar 19, 9:36 AM
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can't believe you complain a one piece sakuga clip and it's not vincent chansard's. that dude has a knack of doing too much IMO. he makes his sequence move too fast too chaotic and doesn't guide the eye as much as the prominent "sakuga" animators/directors that can impact a scene.

what you're pointing out are techniques; they're there to visualize an effect a sense of speed and impact. one piece has let itself evolve into many other artstyles that its hard to pinpoint if it fits on one piece when one piece actually looked awful for a number of eps just to release it on TV.

also i think you're confused, most of the animator's job, they're called on to make these kinds of cuts, they know their work and would get lots of notes and corrections if they ever deviate from the assigned work. That's not the fault of the animator if it is what was intended.

yutapon cubes are an animation technique to simplify debris to make it easier to draw them, it's a style as much as a light flare to depict a sword is sharp or a smear to depict a quick motion. it gives a sense of secondary action of the severity of hitting the floor/wall.
Mar 19, 9:38 AM

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amazing how they can animate random jumping but can't draw good looking husbandos
Mar 19, 2:08 PM
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Reply to perseii
Wyatt said:
Featureless cubes don't express anything, that's why!

They're expressing chunks of ground and buildings breaking apart on a large scale in a satisfying way... What are they supposed to be expressing??

I don't know much or particularly care about this technique, but I still don't understand what could be inherently bad or lacking about this. I liked seeing it in Kekkai Sensen and Mob Psycho... I'll leave it at that.
@perseii I think apart of the problem is that there was much more value in things being immersive back then. There would be deviations in style or crazy upticks in animation, but they weren't distracting or calling attention to themselves in a way that took you out of the experience. This modern obsession with sakuga and these sorts of scenes often breaks that immersion.

I think OP would agree with me on this too. Animation techniques to make the animation process easier on animators are totally fine, as long as the goal is to cover them up as much as possible, so they aren't noticed by the viewer. The issue with Yutapon cubes is that they're used so animators don't have to animate debris anymore, and they're incredibly noticeable to the viewer. Yutapon cubes are utilized purely to create as much schizophrenic movement as possible.
Mar 19, 6:55 PM

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Reply to Wyatt
@BilboBaggins365 Anime has had systemic problems with underpaying for decades. But the budgets are not going up, and the expectations for animator labor ARE. That's why an increase in these showy sakuga scenes does actually make it worse. If your boss pays you 50 cents for 4 hours of work, to animate a scene to the standard quality of an anime, then thats abusive. If your boss pays you 55 cents to work for 30 hours, to "make a scene like the one in Jujutsu Kaisen", that's worse.

Why is it funny I posted this thread considering the last one I posted.
@Wyatt
Wyatt said:
Anime has had systemic problems with underpaying for decades. But the budgets are not going up,
This is incorrect

https://www.cartoonbrew.com/business/sony-wants-to-produce-more-animation-content-but-hampered-by-animator-shortage-high-costs-242893.html#:~:text=Crunchyroll%20president%20Rahul%20Purini%2C%20however,animators%20in%20the%20anime%20industry.

"Crunchyroll president Rahul Purini, however, said that producing anime has become more expensive in the last few years, with costs ballooning 40-60% due to growing budgets in Japan and a limited number of animators in the anime industry."

CR did an interview with MAPPA, with CSM's production was being promoted too, and they tried to the market the fact they were increasing new animator wages beyond what more famous studios, including the more well regarded Kyo Ani were paying. Of course, is that enough, considering the time animators work? No. This is just incorrect though. Production costs absolutely are rising.

Wyatt said:
and the expectations for animator labor ARE.
Compared to when? Like the 70s? Sure. Though, tons of older anime have very impressive, sakuga, more impressive than that clip, and they were treated also like shit. The industry has been using animators as cheap labor since Tezuka.

Plus while digital art isn't just easier than paper art, there are a lot of conveniences that animators in the 80s didn't have access too. I don't know if animation is easier, however, I think it's hard to say it's harder either from the past. Like I am not an animator, if you have someone who did say that I would listen to it. I just know, as someone who picked up sketching a year ago, for fun. I think digital is easier, though drawing by hand I think does test your skills more.
Mar 19, 7:57 PM

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Reply to BilboBaggins365
@Wyatt
Wyatt said:
Anime has had systemic problems with underpaying for decades. But the budgets are not going up,
This is incorrect

https://www.cartoonbrew.com/business/sony-wants-to-produce-more-animation-content-but-hampered-by-animator-shortage-high-costs-242893.html#:~:text=Crunchyroll%20president%20Rahul%20Purini%2C%20however,animators%20in%20the%20anime%20industry.

"Crunchyroll president Rahul Purini, however, said that producing anime has become more expensive in the last few years, with costs ballooning 40-60% due to growing budgets in Japan and a limited number of animators in the anime industry."

CR did an interview with MAPPA, with CSM's production was being promoted too, and they tried to the market the fact they were increasing new animator wages beyond what more famous studios, including the more well regarded Kyo Ani were paying. Of course, is that enough, considering the time animators work? No. This is just incorrect though. Production costs absolutely are rising.

Wyatt said:
and the expectations for animator labor ARE.
Compared to when? Like the 70s? Sure. Though, tons of older anime have very impressive, sakuga, more impressive than that clip, and they were treated also like shit. The industry has been using animators as cheap labor since Tezuka.

Plus while digital art isn't just easier than paper art, there are a lot of conveniences that animators in the 80s didn't have access too. I don't know if animation is easier, however, I think it's hard to say it's harder either from the past. Like I am not an animator, if you have someone who did say that I would listen to it. I just know, as someone who picked up sketching a year ago, for fun. I think digital is easier, though drawing by hand I think does test your skills more.
@BilboBaggins365
Salaries for animators have not gone up in proper proportion to the increase in work! But what you linked is a good point. Good to hear.

Not compared to the 70s, compared to ten years ago. Shonen action series were not covered in fight scenes with this many frames and this many digital effects in 2015. Again, if Sakamoto Days had come out in 2015, no one would have complained about the animation. Shows from the 70s have very impressive animation, yes, far far greater than crap like the clip I posted, but it's not a matter of what's impressive but what's laborious. Also the labor aspect was never the point of the thread, just a rebuttal to someone who had made the case that the artistic failure of bad animation should be forgiven as a gift to the animators.

Digital being easier is a good point.
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Mar 19, 7:57 PM

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can't believe you complain a one piece sakuga clip and it's not vincent chansard's. that dude has a knack of doing too much IMO. he makes his sequence move too fast too chaotic and doesn't guide the eye as much as the prominent "sakuga" animators/directors that can impact a scene.

what you're pointing out are techniques; they're there to visualize an effect a sense of speed and impact. one piece has let itself evolve into many other artstyles that its hard to pinpoint if it fits on one piece when one piece actually looked awful for a number of eps just to release it on TV.

also i think you're confused, most of the animator's job, they're called on to make these kinds of cuts, they know their work and would get lots of notes and corrections if they ever deviate from the assigned work. That's not the fault of the animator if it is what was intended.

yutapon cubes are an animation technique to simplify debris to make it easier to draw them, it's a style as much as a light flare to depict a sword is sharp or a smear to depict a quick motion. it gives a sense of secondary action of the severity of hitting the floor/wall.
@Plopop Light flares depicting swords as sharp are unobtrusive and look good. Yutapon cubes are super noticeable and ugly. There are good animation techniques and bad ones.
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Mar 19, 8:24 PM

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What is "distracting" about it? I'm not a One Piece fan and don't care about the series, so I'm not sure what to make of the aura and how much that fits, but I do recall OP being highly inconsistent, with long stretches of subpar animation and bursts of more impressive animation from a lot of key animators over the years. So what is an example you would give for a good animation clip from OP? I think if you picked one, then that might help the discussion a bit. Just curious where you're coming from or what you'd consider to be good animation in the series. I recall some animation from Naruto that had many fans complaining but people on Sakugabooru liked it. I would guess many people on Sakugabooru are not too interested in OP other than for its animation, so whether it's "consistent" is probably not an issue for them. It's more exciting and interesting than plenty of OP animation I've seen, and I don't have a problem with yutapon cubes.
@Gsarthotegga I don't think that one is distracting, I have seen far more "distracting" videos from One Piece like this one https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/234269 which is a video I hate, I would say the problem with OP's clip is that nothing is happening beyond aura, shaking and many impact frames in parts where it doesn't make sense and that's basically the entire video until like the 30 seconds mark, it's what some people would call "forced animation", but sakoogah "experts" on Sakugabooru rate it over 3000 in score which is just insane to me, it's a very simple scene.
Mar 19, 8:24 PM

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@perseii I think apart of the problem is that there was much more value in things being immersive back then. There would be deviations in style or crazy upticks in animation, but they weren't distracting or calling attention to themselves in a way that took you out of the experience. This modern obsession with sakuga and these sorts of scenes often breaks that immersion.

I think OP would agree with me on this too. Animation techniques to make the animation process easier on animators are totally fine, as long as the goal is to cover them up as much as possible, so they aren't noticed by the viewer. The issue with Yutapon cubes is that they're used so animators don't have to animate debris anymore, and they're incredibly noticeable to the viewer. Yutapon cubes are utilized purely to create as much schizophrenic movement as possible.
17999 said:
I think apart of the problem is that there was much more value in things being immersive back then

I wasn't around "back then," so I can't really say one way or another. But I will be thinking about this as I slowly try more of the "older anime."

17999 said:
The issue with Yutapon cubes is that they're used so animators don't have to animate debris anymore, and they're incredibly noticeable to the viewer.

I'm not too sure that "noticeable" equals "not good." Why shouldn't a piece of animation stand out? Is it also a problem when the music stands out a lot, for example?

Also, animating debris "accurately" sounds like a huge amount of work for what is often a background detail that only stays on screen for a split-second. Maybe they used to force themselves to do it "accurately" "back then"? But I imagine not everyone could pull off an Akira...
Mar 19, 8:49 PM

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@Gsarthotegga I don't think that one is distracting, I have seen far more "distracting" videos from One Piece like this one https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/234269 which is a video I hate, I would say the problem with OP's clip is that nothing is happening beyond aura, shaking and many impact frames in parts where it doesn't make sense and that's basically the entire video until like the 30 seconds mark, it's what some people would call "forced animation", but sakoogah "experts" on Sakugabooru rate it over 3000 in score which is just insane to me, it's a very simple scene.
@Ionliosite2 That clip is hilarious and certainly a better fit for the word distracting, along with chaotic. Must be some Looney Tunes influence. lmao, the eyes stretching out of the skull XD. Well, I wouldn't rate the clip in the first post high either, but I do think it is refreshing to see some movement, which is more than I can expect for most anime coming out. Although maybe the problem isn't animation as much as what the animators are expected to animate. I'd be curious to see what it looked like in the manga, unless this was original. Although I would guess they're taking a lot more liberties with One Piece now if Zhang is allowed to go crazy.

Mar 19, 8:52 PM
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@Wyatt
Wyatt said:
Anime has had systemic problems with underpaying for decades. But the budgets are not going up,
This is incorrect

https://www.cartoonbrew.com/business/sony-wants-to-produce-more-animation-content-but-hampered-by-animator-shortage-high-costs-242893.html#:~:text=Crunchyroll%20president%20Rahul%20Purini%2C%20however,animators%20in%20the%20anime%20industry.

"Crunchyroll president Rahul Purini, however, said that producing anime has become more expensive in the last few years, with costs ballooning 40-60% due to growing budgets in Japan and a limited number of animators in the anime industry."

CR did an interview with MAPPA, with CSM's production was being promoted too, and they tried to the market the fact they were increasing new animator wages beyond what more famous studios, including the more well regarded Kyo Ani were paying. Of course, is that enough, considering the time animators work? No. This is just incorrect though. Production costs absolutely are rising.

Wyatt said:
and the expectations for animator labor ARE.
Compared to when? Like the 70s? Sure. Though, tons of older anime have very impressive, sakuga, more impressive than that clip, and they were treated also like shit. The industry has been using animators as cheap labor since Tezuka.

Plus while digital art isn't just easier than paper art, there are a lot of conveniences that animators in the 80s didn't have access too. I don't know if animation is easier, however, I think it's hard to say it's harder either from the past. Like I am not an animator, if you have someone who did say that I would listen to it. I just know, as someone who picked up sketching a year ago, for fun. I think digital is easier, though drawing by hand I think does test your skills more.
@BilboBaggins365 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iExwO1v_V-s / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDEIPa9b3OU

You should give these videos a watch.

Also if you continue on in the paragraph of the article you posted and quoted from, it literally says, "The irony is that despite the fact that production costs are growing, Japanese animation workers regularly report that they are overworked, underpaid, and regularly face harassment in their jobs." So until we get more detailed information about where those added costs are going, I think OP's point stands. These budget increases may be because anime have ever worsening production schedules, meaning that companies have to hire more people halfway through to rush anime to completion, adding to their costs. So these budget increases may not actually be for a good or helpful reason at all. Plus the article is speaking to a supposed change that is only recently occurring, its to be seen if anything is actually changing for the better. These horrible practices have been occurring for decades, and the meagre increases in budgets we see every once in awhile are definitely not proportionate to the MASSIVE increase in the amount of work needing to be done.

When you ask, "compared to when". Between 1970 and 1995, the number of TV anime being created stayed pretty consistent, anywhere from 15-35. After 1995, the number of series began to rise exponentially. And by 2015, over 200 were being made every year! With a peak of 270. And the budgets and number of animators were never able to keep up. And despite all the profits, little of it is trickling down to the animators themselves.

https://imgur.com/43aqkIK
17999Mar 19, 10:34 PM
Mar 19, 9:26 PM

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Reading through this thread's made me realize why I find sakuga in most modern anime so boring. I love animation but the way it's executed in a lot of modern action productions really does focus on flashiness over fitting the scene. I wouldn't call it distracting but a lot of animators seem to just copy whatever shiny sakuga techniques they spent time practicing without taking into consideration the impact they'll have on the story the scene is trying to tell. Like you said, there seems to be an emphasis on pure animation skill rather than the application of that skill into the greater scene.

I think individual animators having a trademark is fun, though. I also like yutapon cubes, there's just something satisfying about seeing cubes animated lol
Mar 19, 9:54 PM

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Reply to erotardation
Reading through this thread's made me realize why I find sakuga in most modern anime so boring. I love animation but the way it's executed in a lot of modern action productions really does focus on flashiness over fitting the scene. I wouldn't call it distracting but a lot of animators seem to just copy whatever shiny sakuga techniques they spent time practicing without taking into consideration the impact they'll have on the story the scene is trying to tell. Like you said, there seems to be an emphasis on pure animation skill rather than the application of that skill into the greater scene.

I think individual animators having a trademark is fun, though. I also like yutapon cubes, there's just something satisfying about seeing cubes animated lol
@erotardation Thank you!!!! Who are your favorite animators?

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Mar 19, 9:58 PM

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@Gsarthotegga I don't think that one is distracting, I have seen far more "distracting" videos from One Piece like this one https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/234269 which is a video I hate, I would say the problem with OP's clip is that nothing is happening beyond aura, shaking and many impact frames in parts where it doesn't make sense and that's basically the entire video until like the 30 seconds mark, it's what some people would call "forced animation", but sakoogah "experts" on Sakugabooru rate it over 3000 in score which is just insane to me, it's a very simple scene.
@Ionliosite2 Damn, I almost forgot this scene. Yeah, not a fan for sure.
Mar 19, 10:01 PM

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@Gsarthotegga I don't think that one is distracting, I have seen far more "distracting" videos from One Piece like this one https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/234269 which is a video I hate, I would say the problem with OP's clip is that nothing is happening beyond aura, shaking and many impact frames in parts where it doesn't make sense and that's basically the entire video until like the 30 seconds mark, it's what some people would call "forced animation", but sakoogah "experts" on Sakugabooru rate it over 3000 in score which is just insane to me, it's a very simple scene.
@Ionliosite2 Forced animation, yeah. That clip from one piece you linked I'm actually more okay with since it's trying to express the surrealism of the reality-warping power luffy is tapping into. I don't like basically any animation I've seen in recent One piece. (Huge fan of the manga, haven't touched the anime since 2013 aside from sakugabooru clips of the new stuff)
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Mar 19, 10:27 PM

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Definitely don't like how there is more effects than movements here. I don't like how it looks like he jumps the important frame. The timing impact in the scene feels off, the build up still is too long, Zoro moves (specially the cut) are way faster than its effects but it is inconsistent. It does not show Zoro movements, he is running and dodging but it is not shown. The cut is also not shown. The distance he is running gets a extension when camera needs to move faster than him to focus on the enemy.
Also his aura is ahead of him when he is running, but in the cut it is delayed and explodes with a delay from the cut. It is also weird the scene that would be a nice still has movement.
It is not really impact, it is the opposite.

But I like how the yutapon cubes exagerate that his sword moves are slicing everything in the scenario, if he could just show Zoro swinging it.

ps: Notice how in this clip he does impact and sword movements, it feels more impactful because he holds during it, not after https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/170540 the smoke is slower, the characters are faster.
Sasori56483Mar 19, 10:32 PM
Mar 19, 10:36 PM

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Reply to Wyatt
@erotardation Thank you!!!! Who are your favorite animators?

@Wyatt

Honestly, I don't think that much about the works by individual Japanese animators working in the industry. I just don't keep up much with sakuga circles. I should probably look more into that stuff, I do find sakuga really cool even with my criticisms about how some modern stuff is executed.

If I could bring up western animators though, I think some of my favorites would be Jonni Peppers and Aaron Long. Both have done a lot of animated projects entirely on their own and I think both of them have really unique artistic voices. Lewis Tarver/lewvvk has some really interesting work too. Also unironically enjoy Minus8's animations (not western but he's not japanese) for the style they're in, I really like his sfw stuff. As you can see I'm mostly drawn to animators mostly known for their work online lol

Back in the realm of Japanese animators, I think Takena Nagao is kinda amazing both as a guy and an animator(the stop motion's fun and his shorts are cheesy in the best way). Need to watch more of his stuff but he absolutely does not deserve to have some of the lowest rated entries on the website. Hiroyuki Imaishi is known for his directorial work but I enjoy what I've seen of his animations as well.
Mar 19, 10:39 PM
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Reply to erotardation
Reading through this thread's made me realize why I find sakuga in most modern anime so boring. I love animation but the way it's executed in a lot of modern action productions really does focus on flashiness over fitting the scene. I wouldn't call it distracting but a lot of animators seem to just copy whatever shiny sakuga techniques they spent time practicing without taking into consideration the impact they'll have on the story the scene is trying to tell. Like you said, there seems to be an emphasis on pure animation skill rather than the application of that skill into the greater scene.

I think individual animators having a trademark is fun, though. I also like yutapon cubes, there's just something satisfying about seeing cubes animated lol
@erotardation Great comment! Almost entirely agree.
Mar 19, 10:46 PM
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Definitely don't like how there is more effects than movements here. I don't like how it looks like he jumps the important frame. The timing impact in the scene feels off, the build up still is too long, Zoro moves (specially the cut) are way faster than its effects but it is inconsistent. It does not show Zoro movements, he is running and dodging but it is not shown. The cut is also not shown. The distance he is running gets a extension when camera needs to move faster than him to focus on the enemy.
Also his aura is ahead of him when he is running, but in the cut it is delayed and explodes with a delay from the cut. It is also weird the scene that would be a nice still has movement.
It is not really impact, it is the opposite.

But I like how the yutapon cubes exagerate that his sword moves are slicing everything in the scenario, if he could just show Zoro swinging it.

ps: Notice how in this clip he does impact and sword movements, it feels more impactful because he holds during it, not after https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/170540 the smoke is slower, the characters are faster.
@Sasori56483 Great comment. Yeah I really hate how hard animators lean on effects animation now. And I really dislike this wobbly floaty Nakamura style that's taken over. The characters turn into blobs without bones during these scenes, and not in the good fun way! All the moving background and moving camera stuff just makes me feel like I'm on a roller coaster too (and about to puke because of it). You also hit the nail on the head, the scene lacked any feeling of impact. Its a common problem with Nakamura and the people who copy his style.
Mar 19, 10:52 PM

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@Gsarthotegga I don't really see how it's interesting, it's just gaudy and flashy. One Piece is 1000 episodes and I haven't seen an episode of it in like 10 years, but I like this scene: https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/56889 It's got a fast, fun pace.

One Piece is not the point, I can use other examples. A great piece of animation like the Soul Eater first opening is exciting, it creates an emotional atmosphere, it shows you something you've never seen before. https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/232559

Something like this on the other hand: https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/43122 doesn't convey any character or emotion or aesthetic beauty, just creates awe at the mere fact that someone drew all those frames, never mind if it actually looks any good. It serves as a pat on the back to Yutaka Nakamura, and a pat on the back to anyone able to recognize his trademarks, making people feel good catching these little things. A scene designed around emphasizing the mystery of the characters abilities, or the tension they feel in the fight, or the magnificent grace of the characters quick thinking and attacks would not be directed and animated in such a flashy, insubstantial way. It'd look more like this: https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/114104
@Wyatt As someone else was saying, yutapon cubes are simply meant as a different way of showing explosions and debris, instead of little bits of sand, chunks, dust, etc. It allows time saving and a relatively active explosion. I think they work well sometimes, but it does get a little tiresome to see it used so often and not using more distinct debris styles. I'd say the use of yutapon is more appealing in that OP clip than the MHA Nakamura one because the explosion at the end of MHA has far more uniform shapes and is kind of rough because so many are going everywhere. I don't like the yutapon cut there. There are a number of ways I'd prefer the outcome of that fight to be depicted. In the OP clip, the shapes are more varied (different sizes, squares, rectangles, etc.), less busy, and more controlled in the composition. Though I can see the argument for them feeling tacked on and not doing much aside from a quick go-to for making the characters appear more powerful/dominant, sure.

Yutapon can be overused, too heavy, rough. I generally feel it helps when they are more supportive and subtle by comparison:

https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/276308
https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/236056

Here's a more "active" one, and the choice feels quite natural to me:

https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/227508

I have to agree on Soul Eater, as it's nice to see that kind of background animation (simulated camera through the town). Nowadays we hardly get anything close other than 3D stuff like Ufotable's Demon Slayer, which can be a step up from average but pales compared to a lot of famous examples.

lmao, I also prefer the Zhang clip to the one you linked at the start. It has more of a purpose in how it's conveyed, though I reckon most anime fans will feel it's going way overboard.
Mar 19, 10:58 PM

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@BilboBaggins365
Salaries for animators have not gone up in proper proportion to the increase in work! But what you linked is a good point. Good to hear.

Not compared to the 70s, compared to ten years ago. Shonen action series were not covered in fight scenes with this many frames and this many digital effects in 2015. Again, if Sakamoto Days had come out in 2015, no one would have complained about the animation. Shows from the 70s have very impressive animation, yes, far far greater than crap like the clip I posted, but it's not a matter of what's impressive but what's laborious. Also the labor aspect was never the point of the thread, just a rebuttal to someone who had made the case that the artistic failure of bad animation should be forgiven as a gift to the animators.

Digital being easier is a good point.
Wyatt said:
Shows from the 70s have very impressive animation, yes, far far greater than crap like the clip I posted

I don't know of a single series like that. Movies aren't much better, as Animal Treasure Island from 1971 was the last one Toei put effort into.
その目だれの目?
Mar 19, 10:58 PM

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Reply to Gsarthotegga
@Wyatt As someone else was saying, yutapon cubes are simply meant as a different way of showing explosions and debris, instead of little bits of sand, chunks, dust, etc. It allows time saving and a relatively active explosion. I think they work well sometimes, but it does get a little tiresome to see it used so often and not using more distinct debris styles. I'd say the use of yutapon is more appealing in that OP clip than the MHA Nakamura one because the explosion at the end of MHA has far more uniform shapes and is kind of rough because so many are going everywhere. I don't like the yutapon cut there. There are a number of ways I'd prefer the outcome of that fight to be depicted. In the OP clip, the shapes are more varied (different sizes, squares, rectangles, etc.), less busy, and more controlled in the composition. Though I can see the argument for them feeling tacked on and not doing much aside from a quick go-to for making the characters appear more powerful/dominant, sure.

Yutapon can be overused, too heavy, rough. I generally feel it helps when they are more supportive and subtle by comparison:

https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/276308
https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/236056

Here's a more "active" one, and the choice feels quite natural to me:

https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/227508

I have to agree on Soul Eater, as it's nice to see that kind of background animation (simulated camera through the town). Nowadays we hardly get anything close other than 3D stuff like Ufotable's Demon Slayer, which can be a step up from average but pales compared to a lot of famous examples.

lmao, I also prefer the Zhang clip to the one you linked at the start. It has more of a purpose in how it's conveyed, though I reckon most anime fans will feel it's going way overboard.
@Gsarthotegga I can really dig the hero academia clip since as you said it's more subtle. The Space Dandy clip looks amazing. Your analysis is strong. That's what im always looking for. But yeah it's really the default for how debris is drawn and thats really a shame since it almost never works in my opinion. And it certainly almost never looks better than a more realistic style would. I'm not at all a stickler for realism, but in this case I think this has become a crutch in a way that has very few aesthetic benefits.
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Mar 19, 11:03 PM

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Wyatt said:
Shows from the 70s have very impressive animation, yes, far far greater than crap like the clip I posted

I don't know of a single series like that. Movies aren't much better, as Animal Treasure Island from 1971 was the last one Toei put effort into.
@Lucifrost Ashita no Joe and Gamba's Adventure have great scenes that look far better than the crappy clip I started the thread with. Here's an example: https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/43865
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Mar 19, 11:04 PM

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Reply to Wyatt
@erotardation Thank you!!!! Who are your favorite animators?

@Wyatt
I haven't watched any of the anime you're complaining about, but I've seen a couple by Ufotable and think they look cool. I'm most impressed by Heaven's Feel, directed by Tomonori Sudou.

I love Cencoroll too.
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Mar 20, 6:08 AM

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I don't really care about the animation quality of anime. It is kinda ridiculous to even debate about this on the Internet. What exactly is there to discuss about animation?
Mar 20, 4:24 PM

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Wyatt said:
Shows from the 70s have very impressive animation, yes, far far greater than crap like the clip I posted

I don't know of a single series like that. Movies aren't much better, as Animal Treasure Island from 1971 was the last one Toei put effort into.
@Lucifrost The ATI scene is great, and I'm trying to remember if Miyazaki ever animated a scene of that scale so well again. I don't remember anything quite like that in other Toei films that I saw. Some of his early animation and Ghibli kind of get there, but don't seem as playful or cramming in nearly so much action. Before Ghibli, Sherlock Hound had some decent group scenes, but I wasn't having the easiest time finding them when I was last looking, and they're simpler, anyway. The pirate ship is possibly the most dynamic space for something like this because of the vertical potential of the mast. A friend sent me this clip from Ramayana, which has pretty impressive animation for a large battlefield with many soldiers charging en masse, so that might be one to look into.

https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/66747
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