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Aug 13, 8:09 AM
#51
Reply to ShinyLotus
@RobertBobert
"How is this different from any passionate fans of any genre?" -
As I said, it's far more impactful/noticeable, at least it was for me (I don't know what you meant by "this", but it should apply to most of the things I wrote). Also, since I was referring to the community as a whole, it's not specifically about the passionate fans, but also their absolute and relative numbers.
Please just don't use these kinds of ignorant phrases ... I also didn't headline your post with ~but they/others do it too!~ (although that would have been a perfect target) and instead added something that I think is important from my point of view.
"Not to mention that fans and the genre itself are two different things." -
I'm not sure where I supposedly mixed it up, but maybe that clears things up:
You wrote that attacks on battle shounen are popular because their community is an easy target. I added that conflict with that community (by voicing one's negative opinion of the genre) is also often motivated by their persistent recommendations; so perhaps the whole easy target theory may be a bit simplistic and less of a factor than some people think.
Also, I wanted to show how being "nice" (battle shounen fans at the same time do not have elitist fans) can sometimes be more infuriating than just brightly flaming banter (moe/idol fans hitting back) when discussing anime recommendations/taste.
"How is this different from any passionate fans of any genre?" -
As I said, it's far more impactful/noticeable, at least it was for me (I don't know what you meant by "this", but it should apply to most of the things I wrote). Also, since I was referring to the community as a whole, it's not specifically about the passionate fans, but also their absolute and relative numbers.
Please just don't use these kinds of ignorant phrases ... I also didn't headline your post with ~but they/others do it too!~ (although that would have been a perfect target) and instead added something that I think is important from my point of view.
"Not to mention that fans and the genre itself are two different things." -
I'm not sure where I supposedly mixed it up, but maybe that clears things up:
You wrote that attacks on battle shounen are popular because their community is an easy target. I added that conflict with that community (by voicing one's negative opinion of the genre) is also often motivated by their persistent recommendations; so perhaps the whole easy target theory may be a bit simplistic and less of a factor than some people think.
Also, I wanted to show how being "nice" (battle shounen fans at the same time do not have elitist fans) can sometimes be more infuriating than just brightly flaming banter (moe/idol fans hitting back) when discussing anime recommendations/taste.
@ShinyLotus What you're describing is no different from a normal situation where you're annoyed by passionate fans of things you don't like. Just because in your personal case it happens around battle shonen doesn't mean it's any different from being annoyed by the yuri fans or high school rom-com fans. Not to mention, obsessive fans are another thing that makes battle shonen a very easy target to attack. |
RobertBobertAug 13, 8:19 AM
Aug 13, 8:16 AM
#52
Reply to xqXpx
@BigBoyAdvance
I am 37 and my favorite animes are shounen and the number being a battle shounen HxX. And if you think that about DBZ you are talking nonsense.
DBZ doesn't compare in quality with many battle shounen, DBZ was great back then, now not so much.
I am 37 and my favorite animes are shounen and the number being a battle shounen HxX. And if you think that about DBZ you are talking nonsense.
DBZ doesn't compare in quality with many battle shounen, DBZ was great back then, now not so much.
Kek imagine having such shit taste is late 30s. Never mentally and intellectually surpassing the development of a teenager. |
Aug 13, 9:02 AM
#53
Reply to smilebit
@DigiCat not disagreeing with you there but typically the non shounen fan is looking to talk about other anime with the other person but when their recommendation is dismissed so quickly it leads to a biased dislike of that genre. Again, I don't think its one particular reason, it has to do with multiple factors and being that the genre is so huge and defended so vehemently makes it easy for people to get turned off. From the outside, it tends to look like a cult like behavior even though it's not the intention of the fanbase overall.
@smilebit In my experience i'd say it's pretty much 50/50 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
Aug 13, 9:10 AM
#54
Reply to RobertBobert
@ShinyLotus What you're describing is no different from a normal situation where you're annoyed by passionate fans of things you don't like. Just because in your personal case it happens around battle shonen doesn't mean it's any different from being annoyed by the yuri fans or high school rom-com fans. Not to mention, obsessive fans are another thing that makes battle shonen a very easy target to attack.
@RobertBobert "What you're describing is no different from a normal situation where you're annoyed by passionate fans of things you don't like. Just because in your personal [...]" >Well, it wasn't an experience/observation I had with all the other things [I didn't like; but also in general] in the same way. So of course I highlight it in the places where I saw it happen more often. Wait, are you surprised that someone is using their observations? ... What did you expect - surveys and web scraping projects with stats (although you can recommend something like that ... especially the second one sounds like fun)? Of course, other people have read/seen different reviews/discussions on the internet and talked to different people than I have. That's the reason we discuss here, to understand different perspectives and create a more nuanced knowledge of different opinions, at least that's what I thought. "Just because in your personal case it happens around battle shonen doesn't mean it's any different from being annoyed yuri fans or high school rom-com fans." - >How can you just state common characteristics of different communities (~your first post), and when someone else (well, me) does it, you just keep hitting them with ~every community does it/everyone experiences it~. I really don't understand your reasoning ... Just tell me if you haven't noticed the same thing I have, or if you think the communities are not really different. Maybe add a few examples or personal anecdotes. Or even give me statistics. But jumping back and forth between ~my opinion is valuable because it uses generalisations I agree with and points out trends~ and ~your opinion is rubbish because it uses generalisations I disagree with and ignores trends~ has become obnoxious. I thought it was just a hasty mistake but you keep on doing it. "Not to mention, obsessive fans are another thing that makes battle shonen a very easy target to attack." - >Is this an actual agreement with me (even though you attacked my basis) or what do you mean by "obsessed fans"? The fighting shounen fans? What kind of obsessed ones? Are we actually able to talk about the things that matter instead of trying to win nonsensical and artificial arguments (even if it was a disagreement I fully support this part of your post)? |
"I don't know everything, I only know what the internet knows." - Definitely not best girl. "To ask is a moment's shame. Not to, lifelong." - I quoted with a posed look. |
Aug 13, 9:20 AM
#55
Reply to ShinyLotus
@RobertBobert
"What you're describing is no different from a normal situation where you're annoyed by passionate fans of things you don't like. Just because in your personal [...]"
>Well, it wasn't an experience/observation I had with all the other things [I didn't like; but also in general] in the same way. So of course I highlight it in the places where I saw it happen more often.
Wait, are you surprised that someone is using their observations? ... What did you expect - surveys and web scraping projects with stats (although you can recommend something like that ... especially the second one sounds like fun)?
Of course, other people have read/seen different reviews/discussions on the internet and talked to different people than I have. That's the reason we discuss here, to understand different perspectives and create a more nuanced knowledge of different opinions, at least that's what I thought.
"Just because in your personal case it happens around battle shonen doesn't mean it's any different from being annoyed yuri fans or high school rom-com fans." -
>How can you just state common characteristics of different communities (~your first post), and when someone else (well, me) does it, you just keep hitting them with ~every community does it/everyone experiences it~. I really don't understand your reasoning ...
Just tell me if you haven't noticed the same thing I have, or if you think the communities are not really different. Maybe add a few examples or personal anecdotes. Or even give me statistics. But jumping back and forth between ~my opinion is valuable because it uses generalisations I agree with and points out trends~ and ~your opinion is rubbish because it uses generalisations I disagree with and ignores trends~ has become obnoxious. I thought it was just a hasty mistake but you keep on doing it.
"Not to mention, obsessive fans are another thing that makes battle shonen a very easy target to attack." -
>Is this an actual agreement with me (even though you attacked my basis) or what do you mean by "obsessed fans"? The fighting shounen fans? What kind of obsessed ones?
Are we actually able to talk about the things that matter instead of trying to win nonsensical and artificial arguments (even if it was a disagreement I fully support this part of your post)?
"What you're describing is no different from a normal situation where you're annoyed by passionate fans of things you don't like. Just because in your personal [...]"
>Well, it wasn't an experience/observation I had with all the other things [I didn't like; but also in general] in the same way. So of course I highlight it in the places where I saw it happen more often.
Wait, are you surprised that someone is using their observations? ... What did you expect - surveys and web scraping projects with stats (although you can recommend something like that ... especially the second one sounds like fun)?
Of course, other people have read/seen different reviews/discussions on the internet and talked to different people than I have. That's the reason we discuss here, to understand different perspectives and create a more nuanced knowledge of different opinions, at least that's what I thought.
"Just because in your personal case it happens around battle shonen doesn't mean it's any different from being annoyed yuri fans or high school rom-com fans." -
>How can you just state common characteristics of different communities (~your first post), and when someone else (well, me) does it, you just keep hitting them with ~every community does it/everyone experiences it~. I really don't understand your reasoning ...
Just tell me if you haven't noticed the same thing I have, or if you think the communities are not really different. Maybe add a few examples or personal anecdotes. Or even give me statistics. But jumping back and forth between ~my opinion is valuable because it uses generalisations I agree with and points out trends~ and ~your opinion is rubbish because it uses generalisations I disagree with and ignores trends~ has become obnoxious. I thought it was just a hasty mistake but you keep on doing it.
"Not to mention, obsessive fans are another thing that makes battle shonen a very easy target to attack." -
>Is this an actual agreement with me (even though you attacked my basis) or what do you mean by "obsessed fans"? The fighting shounen fans? What kind of obsessed ones?
Are we actually able to talk about the things that matter instead of trying to win nonsensical and artificial arguments (even if it was a disagreement I fully support this part of your post)?
@ShinyLotus I don’t understand whose words about observations you are quoting; there was nothing like that in my comment. I just want to show you that this is more a question of fans or haters as a social phenomenon than of any genres. If you like the genre, then you will like the advice of other fans and irritate the prejudices of haters, and vice versa if you don’t like it. This is a banal mechanism of the human psychology. Of course, each audience may still have characteristics such as the imagined rivalries between characters in the battle shonen fandom or the obsession with tags in the yuri fandom, but as far as I understand, we are talking about something else now. What I'm saying is that if fans of a genre have a bad reputation, whether deserved or not, it makes it much easier to attack the genre itself. For example, I often encounter situations where people, in response to the question “why do you think battle shonen is a bad genre?” can’t answer anything other than complaints about this or that habit of its fans. |
Aug 13, 9:23 AM
#56
Reply to RobertBobert
@LoveYourSmile You still haven't proven that I made some kind of generalization. Just continuing to desperately look for reasons to blame me for this, to give me a moralistic lecture about how it's okay to hate something. After this, your attempts to accuse me of a lack of arguments and no less desperate attempts to literally insist that should I agree with you are simply incredibly pathetic. If you simply have no other reasonable and mature topic to talk about, then just don't waste my time with these pathetic attempts to insult me just so you don't feel hurt by a pointless argument.
"touch the grass... too far for you... desperately... moralistic... desperate... pathetic... pathetic" Ok, now that you position is justified, I should retreat, ahaha. "Insult you"? How? "Generalization not proven?" I did that in my post above, with a literal quote from your original post. "Mature topic and waste of your time." Oh dear, you can't convey a respectful conversation at the age of 34. What maturity or precious time are you talking about. I literally pointed out to where you were wrong, twice. The hatred of random stranger on the Internet saying you are wrong is your typical level of manchild attempts to assert themselves through theatrical attacks on what they consider an easy victim. Hope you don't feel offended, as it's just your original phrase with a few words adjusted to reflect your behavior in this thread. |
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. |
Aug 13, 9:28 AM
#57
Reply to LoveYourSmile
"touch the grass... too far for you... desperately... moralistic... desperate... pathetic... pathetic"
Ok, now that you position is justified, I should retreat, ahaha.
"Insult you"? How?
"Generalization not proven?" I did that in my post above, with a literal quote from your original post.
"Mature topic and waste of your time." Oh dear, you can't convey a respectful conversation at the age of 34. What maturity or precious time are you talking about. I literally pointed out to where you were wrong, twice.
The hatred of random stranger on the Internet saying you are wrong is your typical level of manchild attempts to assert themselves through theatrical attacks on what they consider an easy victim.
Hope you don't feel offended, as it's just your original phrase with a few words adjusted to reflect your behavior in this thread.
Ok, now that you position is justified, I should retreat, ahaha.
"Insult you"? How?
"Generalization not proven?" I did that in my post above, with a literal quote from your original post.
"Mature topic and waste of your time." Oh dear, you can't convey a respectful conversation at the age of 34. What maturity or precious time are you talking about. I literally pointed out to where you were wrong, twice.
The hatred of random stranger on the Internet saying you are wrong is your typical level of manchild attempts to assert themselves through theatrical attacks on what they consider an easy victim.
Hope you don't feel offended, as it's just your original phrase with a few words adjusted to reflect your behavior in this thread.
@LoveYourSmile oh, are you finally finished? Great, have a great week! |
Aug 13, 9:47 AM
#58
A lot of people shit on battle shonen to make themselves feel good as an "anime elitist" and make themselves feel more "mature" and "grown". I've seen so many comments talking about "battle shonen might be watchable if I was 12 years old" but they themselves are only in their late teens to young adult phase. A lot of battle shonen are more than just kicks and punches, sadly some anime fans aren't mature enough to realize that adults can enjoy "kids" show too, even shows like Yu Gi Oh, Pokemon or Digimon. |
Honobono Log - best slice of life short -------------------------------------------- most kawaii loli overlord ---------------------------- Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control |
Aug 13, 9:47 AM
#59
Kenzolo-folk said: Just because it's packed full of fight scenes and is easy to market to a younger audience doesnt mean that it has no substance. Some people don't like "shounen" fights with shouting and stuff, even when they have "substance." And it's "easy to market to a younger audience" because it's literally made for a younger audience. Whatever "substance" is being discussed and conveyed, it's mainly aimed at children. Some people don't like that either. Whether that's "fair" or not is a matter of opinion; don't we all have "dealbreakers" that we hate seeing in an anime, no matter the quality of the rest of the anime? |
Aug 13, 9:48 AM
#60
Yet anıother thread turned into a mess by RobertBobert's passive aggressive trolling techniques. Well it wasn't a good thread anyway. |
Aug 13, 9:51 AM
#61
Reply to ToG25thBaam
A lot of people shit on battle shonen to make themselves feel good as an "anime elitist" and make themselves feel more "mature" and "grown". I've seen so many comments talking about "battle shonen might be watchable if I was 12 years old" but they themselves are only in their late teens to young adult phase.
A lot of battle shonen are more than just kicks and punches, sadly some anime fans aren't mature enough to realize that adults can enjoy "kids" show too, even shows like Yu Gi Oh, Pokemon or Digimon.
A lot of battle shonen are more than just kicks and punches, sadly some anime fans aren't mature enough to realize that adults can enjoy "kids" show too, even shows like Yu Gi Oh, Pokemon or Digimon.
@ToG25thBaam Ironically a lot of battle shonen fans are elitist when it comes to their favorites and easily shit on other battle shonens. |
Aug 13, 9:53 AM
#62
Reply to perseii
Kenzolo-folk said:
Just because it's packed full of fight scenes and is easy to market to a younger audience doesnt mean that it has no substance.
Just because it's packed full of fight scenes and is easy to market to a younger audience doesnt mean that it has no substance.
Some people don't like "shounen" fights with shouting and stuff, even when they have "substance."
And it's "easy to market to a younger audience" because it's literally made for a younger audience. Whatever "substance" is being discussed and conveyed, it's mainly aimed at children. Some people don't like that either.
Whether that's "fair" or not is a matter of opinion; don't we all have "dealbreakers" that we hate seeing in an anime, no matter the quality of the rest of the anime?
@perseii When people confuse the issue of taste with the issue of quality, it is most annoying to me. Especially when it’s not just a matter of taste, but simply a dislike for something because of a different target audience. For example, when you constantly see fans of all-female content attacking genres for the male demographic, or when fans of the male demographic complain about content for the female demographic. @ToG25thBaam Actually, that's what I was talking about. It's especially funny when people take teen anime and unironically start complaining about how it's aimed at teenagers. That is, in their understanding, creating content for teenagers is so bad that even teen show from all sides, should be ashamed of it. |
Aug 13, 9:55 AM
#63
Reply to JoeChip
Yet anıother thread turned into a mess by RobertBobert's passive aggressive trolling techniques. Well it wasn't a good thread anyway.
@JoeChip I didn't know that passive-aggressive trolling is when people obsessively try to push their scarecrow onto you, and then literally start insulting you when you vocally disagree with it. Right up to the unironic start of reproaches that you did not agree with them. |
RobertBobertAug 13, 10:11 AM
Aug 13, 10:19 AM
#64
Reply to RobertBobert
@perseii When people confuse the issue of taste with the issue of quality, it is most annoying to me. Especially when it’s not just a matter of taste, but simply a dislike for something because of a different target audience. For example, when you constantly see fans of all-female content attacking genres for the male demographic, or when fans of the male demographic complain about content for the female demographic.
@ToG25thBaam Actually, that's what I was talking about. It's especially funny when people take teen anime and unironically start complaining about how it's aimed at teenagers. That is, in their understanding, creating content for teenagers is so bad that even teen show from all sides, should be ashamed of it.
@ToG25thBaam Actually, that's what I was talking about. It's especially funny when people take teen anime and unironically start complaining about how it's aimed at teenagers. That is, in their understanding, creating content for teenagers is so bad that even teen show from all sides, should be ashamed of it.
RobertBobert said: Especially when it’s not just a matter of taste, but simply a dislike for something because of a different target audience. I'd say the line is pretty blurry, if it exists at all. It's valid to criticize something that just happens to be a common or integral part of a genre. If I dislike shouting during fights, "but shounen fights always have shouting" is not that great of a defense; I still don't like it and think it's lame. (hypothetically speaking; I do like Demon Slayer) As for going out of our way to attack fans of the other genre... yeah, it's pointless and ridiculous, but we just can't help ourselves, can we. I do my best to just keep my mouth shut in those arguments. |
perseiiAug 13, 10:22 AM
Aug 13, 10:29 AM
#65
Reply to perseii
RobertBobert said:
Especially when it’s not just a matter of taste, but simply a dislike for something because of a different target audience.
Especially when it’s not just a matter of taste, but simply a dislike for something because of a different target audience.
I'd say the line is pretty blurry, if it exists at all.
It's valid to criticize something that just happens to be a common or integral part of a genre. If I dislike shouting during fights, "but shounen fights always have shouting" is not that great of a defense; I still don't like it and think it's lame. (hypothetically speaking; I do like Demon Slayer)
As for going out of our way to attack fans of the other genre... yeah, it's pointless and ridiculous, but we just can't help ourselves, can we. I do my best to just keep my mouth shut in those arguments.
@perseii This is a slightly different point, I think. It's okay to say "I don't like rom-coms because romantic humor annoy me." But when you say “I'm annoyed by romantic humor, so rom-coms are an objectively bad genre where there are no good shows,” it becomes a very strange statement. But unfortunately, quite a lot of people are guided by this principle. From yuri fans who hate battle shonens and harems due to the focus on male MC, to shoujo haters who unironically don't understand why the female ideal of a handsome male character is so different from the male one. Many people simply cannot distance themselves from their own POV and look at some aspect of media or life in general from a conditionally neutral position. |
Aug 13, 10:48 AM
#66
Well it´s allot like the anime´s I enjoy people say nothing ever happens at all, It´s boring and just sucks ass "Yeah becuse I love watching anime with blank pictures". So if people say battle shounen is just fights and screaming with no deep story or anything meaningful well let them think that then enjoy the damn anime you want to enjoy. Or maybe learn to not shit and piss on anime just because you don´t like them. But we are talking humans here all they do is spew shit and hate on everything and nothing. So just ignore the shit. |
Aug 13, 10:50 AM
#67
Reply to perseii
Kenzolo-folk said:
Just because it's packed full of fight scenes and is easy to market to a younger audience doesnt mean that it has no substance.
Just because it's packed full of fight scenes and is easy to market to a younger audience doesnt mean that it has no substance.
Some people don't like "shounen" fights with shouting and stuff, even when they have "substance."
And it's "easy to market to a younger audience" because it's literally made for a younger audience. Whatever "substance" is being discussed and conveyed, it's mainly aimed at children. Some people don't like that either.
Whether that's "fair" or not is a matter of opinion; don't we all have "dealbreakers" that we hate seeing in an anime, no matter the quality of the rest of the anime?
@perseii It’s completely understandable if someone dislikes battle shounen, I’m talking about when people go out of their way to say it’s brainless trash. I also don’t believe in the idea that just because the themes are aimed at children that it can’t be deep either, although it’s rlly hard to pull this off (I think avatar the last airbender does it well) |
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Aug 13, 10:55 AM
#68
Reply to Kenzolo-folk
@perseii
It’s completely understandable if someone dislikes battle shounen, I’m talking about when people go out of their way to say it’s brainless trash. I also don’t believe in the idea that just because the themes are aimed at children that it can’t be deep either, although it’s rlly hard to pull this off (I think avatar the last airbender does it well)
It’s completely understandable if someone dislikes battle shounen, I’m talking about when people go out of their way to say it’s brainless trash. I also don’t believe in the idea that just because the themes are aimed at children that it can’t be deep either, although it’s rlly hard to pull this off (I think avatar the last airbender does it well)
@Kenzolo-folk If even the defenders of children's shows allow themselves to say “this is a show for children, it doesn’t have to be smart,” then what about the haters? Although I agree that people who measure quality by the age of the target audience are quite unbearable. Suffice it to remember how part of the fandom obsessively tried to declare AoT seinen in order not to admit that the show they adored was aimed at teenagers. |
Aug 13, 11:09 AM
#69
Reply to RobertBobert
@Kenzolo-folk If even the defenders of children's shows allow themselves to say “this is a show for children, it doesn’t have to be smart,” then what about the haters? Although I agree that people who measure quality by the age of the target audience are quite unbearable. Suffice it to remember how part of the fandom obsessively tried to declare AoT seinen in order not to admit that the show they adored was aimed at teenagers.
@RobertBobert I don’t think people wanted aot to be seinen because they didn’t want to believe it was aimed at teenagers. I can see why someone would think it better fits seinen because it was already experiencing a lot of censorship by its anime, and it stopped following the typical battle shounen format. There’s sexual assault, torture scenes, dismemberment, yk stuff that isn’t rlly typical for battle shounen. |
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Aug 13, 11:11 AM
#70
Style > Substance You can allege that shounen has substance (big doubt), but the presentation style (=all the screaming) makes it unwatchable. And yes, you can include Attack on Titan in that, even though I used to like the first 3 seasons. |
This dance is the pinnacle of human achievement. |
Aug 13, 11:12 AM
#71
Reply to Kenzolo-folk
@RobertBobert
I don’t think people wanted aot to be seinen because they didn’t want to believe it was aimed at teenagers. I can see why someone would think it better fits seinen because it was already experiencing a lot of censorship by its anime, and it stopped following the typical battle shounen format. There’s sexual assault, torture scenes, dismemberment, yk stuff that isn’t rlly typical for battle shounen.
I don’t think people wanted aot to be seinen because they didn’t want to believe it was aimed at teenagers. I can see why someone would think it better fits seinen because it was already experiencing a lot of censorship by its anime, and it stopped following the typical battle shounen format. There’s sexual assault, torture scenes, dismemberment, yk stuff that isn’t rlly typical for battle shounen.
@Kenzolo-folk In theory, yes. But I have literally seen people who hated shonen and thus tried to defend the show in their own eyes. Especially when the show's haters used the typical "it's battle shonen, so it's a bad show" against AoT. This is a classic example of how people waste time in useless arguments due to addiction to labels. |
Aug 13, 11:25 AM
#72
Reply to RobertBobert
@Kenzolo-folk In theory, yes. But I have literally seen people who hated shonen and thus tried to defend the show in their own eyes. Especially when the show's haters used the typical "it's battle shonen, so it's a bad show" against AoT. This is a classic example of how people waste time in useless arguments due to addiction to labels.
@RobertBobert That's so dumb... An actual seinen "battle shounen" would be something like this https://myanimelist.net/anime/6758/Tatakau_Shisho__The_Book_of_Bantorra It has more or less all the tropes, but like stylistically it's so much different than AoT. |
This dance is the pinnacle of human achievement. |
Aug 13, 11:30 AM
#73
Reply to JaniSIr
@RobertBobert That's so dumb...
An actual seinen "battle shounen" would be something like this https://myanimelist.net/anime/6758/Tatakau_Shisho__The_Book_of_Bantorra
It has more or less all the tropes, but like stylistically it's so much different than AoT.
An actual seinen "battle shounen" would be something like this https://myanimelist.net/anime/6758/Tatakau_Shisho__The_Book_of_Bantorra
It has more or less all the tropes, but like stylistically it's so much different than AoT.
@JaniSIr I didn't quite understand what you were trying to say, but essentially these things arise because people first create a very forced stereotype of what battle shonen is, and then fall into the trap when a show contradicts such expectations. |
Aug 13, 11:30 AM
#74
Power of friendship & fighting people to solve problems sounds so cool as a kid... Now it sounds stupid when you are an adult... |
" Kindness can sometimes lead you to trouble. " |
Aug 13, 11:39 AM
#75
Reply to BigBoyAdvance
Kek imagine having such shit taste is late 30s. Never mentally and intellectually surpassing the development of a teenager.
@BigBoyAdvance this guy said "women expire at 18" btw ur preference for "women" hasnt gone past the development of a teenager |
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Aug 13, 11:47 AM
#76
If some people don't like battle shounen , it's fine but they have to say why they don't like it other than that i can't take them seriously |
What you see is what you get , Sorry my English is not the best . |
Aug 13, 11:51 AM
#77
Reply to Kenzolo-folk
@BigBoyAdvance
this guy said "women expire at 18" btw
ur preference for "women" hasnt gone past the development of a teenager
this guy said "women expire at 18" btw
ur preference for "women" hasnt gone past the development of a teenager
@Kenzolo-folk I was wrong. Women expire at 16, not 18. |
Aug 13, 11:52 AM
#78
Reply to RobertBobert
@JaniSIr I didn't quite understand what you were trying to say, but essentially these things arise because people first create a very forced stereotype of what battle shonen is, and then fall into the trap when a show contradicts such expectations.
@RobertBobert Basically the point is that Attack on Titan actually is a pretty standard shounen, except it had an above average story until season 4 ruined everything retroactively, but that's a different discussion... I linked a "battle shounen", that's tagged seinen. It literally has a "power of friendship" ending, but stylistically it's so different from AoT, that there is no way anyone could reasonably argue that AoT is not a shounen. |
This dance is the pinnacle of human achievement. |
Aug 13, 11:52 AM
#79
I'm 44 and I watch a lot of shounen and battle shounen. I enjoy them, like the characters, usually has good animation and is fun. And yes they can have depth. And yes they don't too. Doesn't make them less enjoyable or good. Unless of course the writing is trash. But that's a different matter then it having fight scenes |
Aug 13, 11:59 AM
#80
Reply to JaniSIr
@RobertBobert Basically the point is that Attack on Titan actually is a pretty standard shounen, except it had an above average story until season 4 ruined everything retroactively, but that's a different discussion...
I linked a "battle shounen", that's tagged seinen. It literally has a "power of friendship" ending, but stylistically it's so different from AoT, that there is no way anyone could reasonably argue that AoT is not a shounen.
I linked a "battle shounen", that's tagged seinen. It literally has a "power of friendship" ending, but stylistically it's so different from AoT, that there is no way anyone could reasonably argue that AoT is not a shounen.
@JaniSIr Well, it's again a matter of labels and expectations. Remember the infamous stereotype that blushing means romance and how many people complained about the non-existent lolicon in Spy x Family just because Anya was blushing when Lloyd finally accepted her as his daughter. |
Aug 13, 12:05 PM
#81
Reply to RobertBobert
@ShinyLotus I don’t understand whose words about observations you are quoting; there was nothing like that in my comment. I just want to show you that this is more a question of fans or haters as a social phenomenon than of any genres. If you like the genre, then you will like the advice of other fans and irritate the prejudices of haters, and vice versa if you don’t like it. This is a banal mechanism of the human psychology. Of course, each audience may still have characteristics such as the imagined rivalries between characters in the battle shonen fandom or the obsession with tags in the yuri fandom, but as far as I understand, we are talking about something else now.
What I'm saying is that if fans of a genre have a bad reputation, whether deserved or not, it makes it much easier to attack the genre itself. For example, I often encounter situations where people, in response to the question “why do you think battle shonen is a bad genre?” can’t answer anything other than complaints about this or that habit of its fans.
What I'm saying is that if fans of a genre have a bad reputation, whether deserved or not, it makes it much easier to attack the genre itself. For example, I often encounter situations where people, in response to the question “why do you think battle shonen is a bad genre?” can’t answer anything other than complaints about this or that habit of its fans.
@RobertBobert "I don’t understand whose words about observations you are quoting; there was nothing like that in my comment." Welcome back ... let's just ignore everything except from our first posts and the current ones yet that we are back to a normal conversation. (Little explanation: "[...] your personal case it happens around battle shonen [...]" --> Looking back I am no longer sure what you meant by this. But since I stated my obervations throughout the posts and only added a personal anecdote to reinforce those by my own experience in my first post, "personal case" was the same as "my observations" to me. But I could have realised that you would not make the same conclusion as me since we were not on the same wavelength.) "I just want to show you that this is more a question of fans or haters as a social phenomenon than of any genres" I will add that the opinion that Battle Shounens e.g. have no substance is more/mostly because of the genre itself (/the shows that represent it), while the community set-up is the reason why many people feel motivated to articulate that opinion as well (or do it in a furious way). btw: I never doubted that and my first reply to you did too. I was talking about another social phenomenon regarding the motivation of haters as I felt your first statement was a bit too nice towards battle shounen fans (not wrong but one-sided; also not your fault as the topic itself was worded in a way that led to that kind of response)... as if they are not the reason for anything at all and were just victims of complacent teenagers. "If you like the genre, then you will like the advice of other fans and irritate the prejudices of haters, and vice versa if you don’t like it." - >It would be better if more people realised that you have to figure out what elements of the anime evoked your feelings, rather than trying to figure out what feelings everyone should have when presented with each element. One of the main problems with talking to people with different tastes is often that they try to argue on the basis of the second approach. And I absolutely stand by my position (based on my observations XD) that battle shounen fans are the biggest offenders in this regard. They may not act like their genre is objectively the best, but that doesn't help when they still try to push it on you because theme X is supposed to make you happy and they assume you just missed it the first 7 times, while idol fans, for example, do their best to instead label everyone an uncultured pig not worthy of their waifus because they realised that you disliked the "objectivly" best themes in anime, so you actually stay away instead of wasting your time since they're very good at telling you it's not for you. But it seems like you don't have the same impression that this trend exists ... ? "Of course, each audience may still have characteristics such as the imagined rivalries between characters in the battle shonen fandom or the obsession with tags in the yuri fandom, but as far as I understand, we are talking about something else now." - >Yes. Aside from my first post and this one, I was just defending my original post to you, with no new information (other than rephrasing the first post in case it was misunderstood). That's my impression. "What I'm saying is that if fans of a genre have a bad reputation, whether deserved or not, it makes it much easier to attack the genre itself." - >It's funny that I never thought it was easy to attack Battle Shounens. But that may be because I'm more interested in reaching out and understanding their fans' position than attacking them in the sense of winning an argument. I actually get very frustrated when I don't understand why, for example, how HxH should have the best character development instead of feeling good because the other side is talking nonsense from my point of view. (To be fair: I enjoy the banter sometimes too ... but that's just a sideshow). "What I'm saying is that if fans of a genre have a bad reputation [...]" - >Wait a minute… battle shounen fans have a bad reputation? I thought that was just MHA... seems like I focus too much on recommendations/reviews/analysis compared to the drama show (not that I'm motivated to change that). "[...] can’t answer anything other than complaints about this or that habit of its fans." >As long as they don't try to rate a single series based on it (~using it as an answer as to why they hate the genre or even a single series, rather than writing reviews for others to rely on), it seems valid ... hating Battle Shounens for creating Battle Shounen fans seems very obvious to me XD but thats probably not what you meant Also, it may seem unfair to the anime itself, but it is what it is. I also can't clearly distinguish between my feelings about HxH's character development and my frustration with those I disagree with or don't understand in that regard. btw: what is 'this' ... I never know what you are referring to when you use that word. Consider me very stupid if you use that word again so you can explain it in detail. |
"I don't know everything, I only know what the internet knows." - Definitely not best girl. "To ask is a moment's shame. Not to, lifelong." - I quoted with a posed look. |
Aug 13, 12:16 PM
#82
I believe it's because, ironically, the themes and message require deeper thought than some shows, no disrespect to other genres they're all well written they're themes just take centre stage more often than in battle Shonen. The themes can sometimes be veiled behind the fun characters and big fights. It's the smaller less important moments that present the themes until that themes takes the foreground in that respective arc or shows concluding fight. So the themes and story can be interpreted as childish by less attentive readers because the themes are more hidden before that and there often presented through metaphors and actions rather than words. I believe the fanbases can also play a part. Additionally it's that the more popular shows tend not to have themes as deep as others and tend to be overrun by the flashy animation that could take away from the story. I think anyone can enjoy battle Shonen they just need to find the right one and pay attention. |
ZorpanurAug 13, 1:07 PM
You know the British Empire was pretty cool, we definitely peaked with it. |
Aug 13, 12:19 PM
#83
It's mainly because these shows are rated and celebrated way too much than it deserves. And yes they are not deep. If you think they're deep then you're most probably 14. Kenzolo-folk said: Not some of them but almost all of them. This is the problem. Their philosophies are strictly centered on things like power of friendship. Which has gotten way too boring.A lot of the fight scenes are the characters challenging each other's philosophies or becoming a new version of themself (internally) |
Aug 13, 12:25 PM
#84
Reply to RobertBobert
@JaniSIr Well, it's again a matter of labels and expectations. Remember the infamous stereotype that blushing means romance and how many people complained about the non-existent lolicon in Spy x Family just because Anya was blushing when Lloyd finally accepted her as his daughter.
@RobertBobert No, and I wish it was 1 minute ago when I didn't know that was a thing. |
This dance is the pinnacle of human achievement. |
Aug 13, 12:28 PM
#85
Reply to JaniSIr
@RobertBobert No, and I wish it was 1 minute ago when I didn't know that was a thing.
@JaniSIr This is just one of the countless cases where people fail to look beyond stereotypes due to ignorance or simply narrow thinking. For example, I've seen a lot of times where people are surprised that two female characters aren't a couple just because THEY ARE ROOMMATES. |
Aug 13, 12:32 PM
#86
Reply to RobertBobert
@JaniSIr This is just one of the countless cases where people fail to look beyond stereotypes due to ignorance or simply narrow thinking. For example, I've seen a lot of times where people are surprised that two female characters aren't a couple just because THEY ARE ROOMMATES.
@RobertBobert It was quite a shocker when I learned that like 90% of shows labelled yuri by the fandom don't actually have any romance in it... But like Attack on Titan has exactly as much shouting as I'd expect from a shounen, so I don't see how does this apply here. |
This dance is the pinnacle of human achievement. |
Aug 13, 12:35 PM
#87
Reply to LoveYourSmile
"touch the grass... too far for you... desperately... moralistic... desperate... pathetic... pathetic"
Ok, now that you position is justified, I should retreat, ahaha.
"Insult you"? How?
"Generalization not proven?" I did that in my post above, with a literal quote from your original post.
"Mature topic and waste of your time." Oh dear, you can't convey a respectful conversation at the age of 34. What maturity or precious time are you talking about. I literally pointed out to where you were wrong, twice.
The hatred of random stranger on the Internet saying you are wrong is your typical level of manchild attempts to assert themselves through theatrical attacks on what they consider an easy victim.
Hope you don't feel offended, as it's just your original phrase with a few words adjusted to reflect your behavior in this thread.
Ok, now that you position is justified, I should retreat, ahaha.
"Insult you"? How?
"Generalization not proven?" I did that in my post above, with a literal quote from your original post.
"Mature topic and waste of your time." Oh dear, you can't convey a respectful conversation at the age of 34. What maturity or precious time are you talking about. I literally pointed out to where you were wrong, twice.
The hatred of random stranger on the Internet saying you are wrong is your typical level of manchild attempts to assert themselves through theatrical attacks on what they consider an easy victim.
Hope you don't feel offended, as it's just your original phrase with a few words adjusted to reflect your behavior in this thread.
@LoveYourSmile (1) RobertBobert didn't refer to the battle shounen haters by 'typical' but to the attributes of a teens attempt to ... is like a typical teen attempting to != is typically a teens attempt to (However, his statement was clearly framed as a generalization.) (2) I also replied to RobertBobert for similar reasons to you, but I also think you don't need to focus so much on generalizations of others as an argument. It's normal to use generalizing language to express that you feel something is often the case (either relatively or absolutely). As long as you don't use it as a basis for false logical conclusions, but just to express your point of view, it's not a big problem. Just reply how your impression is different, or ask how big of a case it really is (in numbers/comparisons to other phenomena). You can rant later if it was actually an overly simplistic worldview that you completely disagree with... just don't assume it is the case based on a single post that has nothing to do with you. [Please refer from accusing me that I chose a side and therefore agree/disagree with one of you entirely. It was just this that irritated me.] |
"I don't know everything, I only know what the internet knows." - Definitely not best girl. "To ask is a moment's shame. Not to, lifelong." - I quoted with a posed look. |
Aug 13, 12:36 PM
#88
Reply to JaniSIr
@RobertBobert It was quite a shocker when I learned that like 90% of shows labelled yuri by the fandom don't actually have any romance in it...
But like Attack on Titan has exactly as much shouting as I'd expect from a shounen, so I don't see how does this apply here.
But like Attack on Titan has exactly as much shouting as I'd expect from a shounen, so I don't see how does this apply here.
@JaniSIr You'll be surprised to find out how much hentai from before the second half of the 90s now hardly even crosses the border of strong ecchi, lmao. But that's another conversation. It's about stereotypes and expectations. People have so embraced the idea that any shonen is a kids' show for teens, and in the Western sense of teen shows, that when shonen contradicts this, it shocks them so much that they try to call it seinen. |
Aug 13, 12:47 PM
#89
Aug 13, 12:51 PM
#90
Reply to Kenzolo-folk
@perseii
It’s completely understandable if someone dislikes battle shounen, I’m talking about when people go out of their way to say it’s brainless trash. I also don’t believe in the idea that just because the themes are aimed at children that it can’t be deep either, although it’s rlly hard to pull this off (I think avatar the last airbender does it well)
It’s completely understandable if someone dislikes battle shounen, I’m talking about when people go out of their way to say it’s brainless trash. I also don’t believe in the idea that just because the themes are aimed at children that it can’t be deep either, although it’s rlly hard to pull this off (I think avatar the last airbender does it well)
Kenzolo-folk said: I’m talking about when people go out of their way to say it’s brainless trash. That happens everywhere really, outside of shounen and outside of anime. The questions of "why do people make blanket statements" and "why do people go out of their way to trash other people's opinions" are really discussions about the internet in general and beyond the scope of this thread, I think... Kenzolo-folk said: I also don’t believe in the idea that just because the themes are aimed at children that it can’t be deep either Sure, it can be "deep," but it often isn't, is it? If the defense against "shounen isn't that deep" is "some of them are deep," that's not a very good defense. Then they can just say, "well, everything else isn't deep, so shounen is still mostly trash." If some people think that an anime is trash because it's for children and isn't deep, then they probably won't (ever) like or tolerate battle shounen. Battle shounen should be celebrated for what it is, for the qualities it does have; if some people don't like those, then that's their call. |
Aug 13, 12:53 PM
#91
Reply to RobertBobert
@JaniSIr You'll be surprised to find out how much hentai from before the second half of the 90s now hardly even crosses the border of strong ecchi, lmao. But that's another conversation.
It's about stereotypes and expectations. People have so embraced the idea that any shonen is a kids' show for teens, and in the Western sense of teen shows, that when shonen contradicts this, it shocks them so much that they try to call it seinen.
It's about stereotypes and expectations. People have so embraced the idea that any shonen is a kids' show for teens, and in the Western sense of teen shows, that when shonen contradicts this, it shocks them so much that they try to call it seinen.
@RobertBobert If people didn't expect Attack on Titan to be for teens, then we must have been watching very different shows. |
This dance is the pinnacle of human achievement. |
Aug 13, 12:56 PM
#92
Reply to JaniSIr
@RobertBobert If people didn't expect Attack on Titan to be for teens, then we must have been watching very different shows.
@JaniSIr As it turned out, many people really didn’t know this. Because AoT didn't have the expected colored spiky hair, lectures on the power of friendship, etc. Plus as usual a lot of shonen haters actually watched shows like this and were just looking for excuses as to why they were watching it. Likewise, many people cannot believe for a long time that some show is shoujo due to the lack of romance, lmao. |
Aug 13, 1:09 PM
#93
Reply to Zorpanur
I believe it's because, ironically, the themes and message require deeper thought than some shows, no disrespect to other genres they're all well written they're themes just take centre stage more often than in battle Shonen. The themes can sometimes be veiled behind the fun characters and big fights. It's the smaller less important moments that present the themes until that themes takes the foreground in that respective arc or shows concluding fight. So the themes and story can be interpreted as childish by less attentive readers because the themes are more hidden before that and there often presented through metaphors and actions rather than words. I believe the fanbases can also play a part. Additionally it's that the more popular shows tend not to have themes as deep as others and tend to be overrun by the flashy animation that could take away from the story. I think anyone can enjoy battle Shonen they just need to find the right one and pay attention.
@Zorpanur I don't think battle shonen is the most theme heavy genre and what you say about themes with metaphors and actions is just good stories in general but I agree with people not paying attention, a lot of battle shonens like MHA or JJK while not being the deepest stories ever and I can criticise a lot of things about them, around half of the criticisms towards MHA for example can be easily debunked by seeing people who say it haven't pay attention/think every shonen is exactly like naruto and from my understanding probable misunderstand Naruto too, there are genuine criticisms towards characters like Ochacko but people just say her entire character revolves around Deku and it's wrong, and she's probably the character I can criticise the most (still like her) |
Aug 13, 1:14 PM
#94
Reply to epidemia78
nope sorry, battle shounen is the worst genre. It's so childish, repetitive and annoying. And it just goes on and on forever without ever getting to the point. Boy, I sure do hate me some battle shounen.
@epidemia78 Yeah, those points are totally limited to just shounen stuff. |
Aug 13, 1:14 PM
#95
Reply to Guilmon1
@Zorpanur I don't think battle shonen is the most theme heavy genre and what you say about themes with metaphors and actions is just good stories in general but I agree with people not paying attention, a lot of battle shonens like MHA or JJK while not being the deepest stories ever and I can criticise a lot of things about them, around half of the criticisms towards MHA for example can be easily debunked by seeing people who say it haven't pay attention/think every shonen is exactly like naruto and from my understanding probable misunderstand Naruto too, there are genuine criticisms towards characters like Ochacko but people just say her entire character revolves around Deku and it's wrong, and she's probably the character I can criticise the most (still like her)
@Guilmon1 I absolutely agree MHA and JJK are both good shows but they do have quite a few problems same goes for other Shonen. It's definitely not the most heavily themed but the themes are definitely mature enough if you watch the right ones. Battle Shonen is by no means the pinnacle of story telling and anime probably but they're still damn good. |
You know the British Empire was pretty cool, we definitely peaked with it. |
Aug 13, 1:17 PM
#96
Reply to epidemia78
nope sorry, battle shounen is the worst genre. It's so childish, repetitive and annoying. And it just goes on and on forever without ever getting to the point. Boy, I sure do hate me some battle shounen.
@epidemia78 those are fair criticisms to make about battle shounen but i also feel like you can say that about slice of life, harem/ecchi, romance, detective/mystery shows etc |
Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
Aug 13, 1:17 PM
#97
Reply to FanofAction
@epidemia78 Yeah, those points are totally limited to just shounen stuff.
@FanofAction most other genres arent given enough seasons to become repetitive. Battle shounen just eats up all the anime funding which could be spent elsewhere telling a story that the author isnt just pulling from his ass to jerk around the audience with fake deaths and other garbage like that. |
Aug 13, 1:23 PM
#98
Reply to epidemia78
@FanofAction
most other genres arent given enough seasons to become repetitive. Battle shounen just eats up all the anime funding which could be spent elsewhere telling a story that the author isnt just pulling from his ass to jerk around the audience with fake deaths and other garbage like that.
most other genres arent given enough seasons to become repetitive. Battle shounen just eats up all the anime funding which could be spent elsewhere telling a story that the author isnt just pulling from his ass to jerk around the audience with fake deaths and other garbage like that.
@epidemia78 Maybe they don't have the length factor, but that doesn't change the fact that other genres as a whole are littered with repetitive, childish and annoying things as well. |
Aug 13, 1:24 PM
#99
Reply to Zorpanur
@Guilmon1 I absolutely agree MHA and JJK are both good shows but they do have quite a few problems same goes for other Shonen. It's definitely not the most heavily themed but the themes are definitely mature enough if you watch the right ones. Battle Shonen is by no means the pinnacle of story telling and anime probably but they're still damn good.
@Zorpanur agree, I see how many people discredit them for being for children and then pay 0 attention to the story to prove their point... And as someone who loves digimon, Pokémon and many other children's stories outside of anime it's frustrating |
Aug 13, 1:23 PM
#100
Reply to Zorpanur
@Guilmon1 I absolutely agree MHA and JJK are both good shows but they do have quite a few problems same goes for other Shonen. It's definitely not the most heavily themed but the themes are definitely mature enough if you watch the right ones. Battle Shonen is by no means the pinnacle of story telling and anime probably but they're still damn good.
@Zorpanur agree, I see how many people discredit them for being for children and then pay 0 attention to the story to prove their point... And as someone who loves digimon, Pokémon and many other children's stories outside of anime it's frustrating |
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