Reply to ToG25thBaam
A lot of people shit on battle shonen to make themselves feel good as an "anime elitist" and make themselves feel more "mature" and "grown". I've seen so many comments talking about "battle shonen might be watchable if I was 12 years old" but they themselves are only in their late teens to young adult phase.
A lot of battle shonen are more than just kicks and punches, sadly some anime fans aren't mature enough to realize that adults can enjoy "kids" show too, even shows like Yu Gi Oh, Pokemon or Digimon.
A lot of battle shonen are more than just kicks and punches, sadly some anime fans aren't mature enough to realize that adults can enjoy "kids" show too, even shows like Yu Gi Oh, Pokemon or Digimon.
| @ToG25thBaam 100% one of the wisest things ever said on MAL |
Reply to Zorpanur
I believe it's because, ironically, the themes and message require deeper thought than some shows, no disrespect to other genres they're all well written they're themes just take centre stage more often than in battle Shonen. The themes can sometimes be veiled behind the fun characters and big fights. It's the smaller less important moments that present the themes until that themes takes the foreground in that respective arc or shows concluding fight. So the themes and story can be interpreted as childish by less attentive readers because the themes are more hidden before that and there often presented through metaphors and actions rather than words. I believe the fanbases can also play a part. Additionally it's that the more popular shows tend not to have themes as deep as others and tend to be overrun by the flashy animation that could take away from the story. I think anyone can enjoy battle Shonen they just need to find the right one and pay attention.
Zorpanur said: I believe it's because, ironically, the themes and message require deeper thought than some shows, no disrespect to other genres they're all well written they're themes just take centre stage more often than in battle Shonen. The themes can sometimes be veiled behind the fun characters and big fights. It's the smaller less important moments that present the themes until that themes takes the foreground in that respective arc or shows concluding fight. So the themes and story can be interpreted as childish by less attentive readers because the themes are more hidden before that and there often presented through metaphors and actions rather than words. I believe the fanbases can also play a part. Additionally it's that the more popular shows tend not to have themes as deep as others and tend to be overrun by the flashy animation that could take away from the story. I think anyone can enjoy battle Shonen they just need to find the right one and pay attention. Other ironic thing is how the arguments i'm seeing in this thread for battle shounen sound so much more mature than those against *cough cough mshfqtny said: It's mainly because these shows are rated and celebrated way too much than it deserves. And yes they are not deep. If you think they're deep then you're most probably 14 |
Reply to Guilmon1
@Zorpanur I don't think battle shonen is the most theme heavy genre and what you say about themes with metaphors and actions is just good stories in general but I agree with people not paying attention, a lot of battle shonens like MHA or JJK while not being the deepest stories ever and I can criticise a lot of things about them, around half of the criticisms towards MHA for example can be easily debunked by seeing people who say it haven't pay attention/think every shonen is exactly like naruto and from my understanding probable misunderstand Naruto too, there are genuine criticisms towards characters like Ochacko but people just say her entire character revolves around Deku and it's wrong, and she's probably the character I can criticise the most (still like her)
| @Guilmon1 I think battle shounen like every genre will have it's deeper stories and it's less deep ones, and true, just because there are critiques to make about a show doesn't take away it's depth |
Reply to SimplyBrazen
They're too repetitive. I wouldn't have a problem with battle shonen if magazines actually tried to create sth new once in a while instead of abusing the same themes. And it has no substance if you repeat the same plot with the same characters over and over again.
| @SimplyBrazen Seinen also has pretty repetitive themes (no disrespect to seinen tho i rlly like it) but usually it follows the formula of a ruthless killer with a tragic past that eventually learns to give up revenge and become a better person. Or something adjacent to that but less bloody (cuz the setting is not historical) |
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| @ShinyLotus It doesn't matter anymore, but thanks for responding. I have drawn my own conclusions and will not fall into the same trap again. |
| Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. |
Reply to DigiCat
Zorpanur said:
I believe it's because, ironically, the themes and message require deeper thought than some shows, no disrespect to other genres they're all well written they're themes just take centre stage more often than in battle Shonen. The themes can sometimes be veiled behind the fun characters and big fights. It's the smaller less important moments that present the themes until that themes takes the foreground in that respective arc or shows concluding fight. So the themes and story can be interpreted as childish by less attentive readers because the themes are more hidden before that and there often presented through metaphors and actions rather than words. I believe the fanbases can also play a part. Additionally it's that the more popular shows tend not to have themes as deep as others and tend to be overrun by the flashy animation that could take away from the story. I think anyone can enjoy battle Shonen they just need to find the right one and pay attention.
I believe it's because, ironically, the themes and message require deeper thought than some shows, no disrespect to other genres they're all well written they're themes just take centre stage more often than in battle Shonen. The themes can sometimes be veiled behind the fun characters and big fights. It's the smaller less important moments that present the themes until that themes takes the foreground in that respective arc or shows concluding fight. So the themes and story can be interpreted as childish by less attentive readers because the themes are more hidden before that and there often presented through metaphors and actions rather than words. I believe the fanbases can also play a part. Additionally it's that the more popular shows tend not to have themes as deep as others and tend to be overrun by the flashy animation that could take away from the story. I think anyone can enjoy battle Shonen they just need to find the right one and pay attention.
Other ironic thing is how the arguments i'm seeing in this thread for battle shounen sound so much more mature than those against
*cough cough
mshfqtny said:
It's mainly because these shows are rated and celebrated way too much than it deserves. And yes they are not deep. If you think they're deep then you're most probably 14
It's mainly because these shows are rated and celebrated way too much than it deserves. And yes they are not deep. If you think they're deep then you're most probably 14
DigiCat said: you'll only like things that you wanna hear. That's how human brain works.Other ironic thing is how the arguments i'm seeing in this thread for battle shounen sound so much more mature than those against |
Reply to Kenzolo-folk
@epidemia78
those are fair criticisms to make about battle shounen but i also feel like you can say that about slice of life, harem/ecchi, romance, detective/mystery shows etc
those are fair criticisms to make about battle shounen but i also feel like you can say that about slice of life, harem/ecchi, romance, detective/mystery shows etc
| @Kenzolo-folk Harem is indeed quite a bad genre too, no argument there. |
This dance is the pinnacle of human achievement. |
Reply to mshfqtny
DigiCat said:
Other ironic thing is how the arguments i'm seeing in this thread for battle shounen sound so much more mature than those against
you'll only like things that you wanna hear. That's how human brain works.Other ironic thing is how the arguments i'm seeing in this thread for battle shounen sound so much more mature than those against
| @mshfqtny Oh really? Seems i said something you didn't want ot hear then :) |
| i have some problems if ginga eiyuu densetsu is my favorite anime and kimetsu no yaiba manga is one of my favorite battle shonen? btw watch doremi please. |
they see fights and screaming characters and immediately their first instinct is to think that it can't possibly be deep or have meaningful themes. i mean theres a reason a lot of people say their lives changed after watching shows like One Piece and Naruto. Just because it's packed full of fight scenes and is easy to market to a younger audience doesnt mean that it has no substance. A lot of the fight scenes are the characters challenging each other's philosophies or becoming a new version of themself (internally) but through the guise of easily digestible action. Naruto seems like a strange example to use since it's quite literally the most generic shonen out there, and any life lessons that could be gleaned from it are prevalent in every other shonen too, so there's nothing really complicated or meaningful about it. Tbh though a lot of criticisms about shonen are valid. Almost all of them follow the same formula and even the ones that try to think outside the box or do things differently on occasion like HxH still follow a ton of shonen tropes. |
| Shounen are like this. Most of the shounen are basically depend on characters instinct. Some are great and some are not. And it's just shounen, so it's ok.... |
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Reply to Early_Morning
they see fights and screaming characters and immediately their first instinct is to think that it can't possibly be deep or have meaningful themes. i mean theres a reason a lot of people say their lives changed after watching shows like One Piece and Naruto. Just because it's packed full of fight scenes and is easy to market to a younger audience doesnt mean that it has no substance. A lot of the fight scenes are the characters challenging each other's philosophies or becoming a new version of themself (internally) but through the guise of easily digestible action.
Naruto seems like a strange example to use since it's quite literally the most generic shonen out there, and any life lessons that could be gleaned from it are prevalent in every other shonen too, so there's nothing really complicated or meaningful about it.
Tbh though a lot of criticisms about shonen are valid. Almost all of them follow the same formula and even the ones that try to think outside the box or do things differently on occasion like HxH still follow a ton of shonen tropes.
| @Early_Morning I think conceptually Narutos themes may not be unique, but the execution of it is unlike anything ive ever seen in any other shounen. Other shounen may be better written than Naruto but nothing has really made me as reflective or emotional as Naruto has (one piece was pretty close.) I mention naruto because he is the only popular shounen character that really started with nothing and was frequently bullied. Like a total loner. You can't really find this in any other main character because usually they have a family (support group), and if they dont, they aren't suffering from severe bullying. I think a lot of people related to this aspect of him and to see him actually obtain his dreams was also fulfilling and uplifting for many people, which is definitely meaningfull. |
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| Yeah its definitely a bit annoying when their only gripe is that its all action and no substance when its clearly not the truth |
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Kenzolo-folk said: @SimplyBrazen Seinen also has pretty repetitive themes (no disrespect to seinen tho i rlly like it) but usually it follows the formula of a ruthless killer with a tragic past that eventually learns to give up revenge and become a better person. Or something adjacent to that but less bloody (cuz the setting is not historical) Nah, most seinen I've seen or read don't fit that formula. I think you just need to explore more. Especially since the best seinen stories never get adapted into anime. |
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Reply to SimplyBrazen
Kenzolo-folk said:
@SimplyBrazen
Seinen also has pretty repetitive themes (no disrespect to seinen tho i rlly like it) but usually it follows the formula of a ruthless killer with a tragic past that eventually learns to give up revenge and become a better person. Or something adjacent to that but less bloody (cuz the setting is not historical)
@SimplyBrazen
Seinen also has pretty repetitive themes (no disrespect to seinen tho i rlly like it) but usually it follows the formula of a ruthless killer with a tragic past that eventually learns to give up revenge and become a better person. Or something adjacent to that but less bloody (cuz the setting is not historical)
Nah, most seinen I've seen or read don't fit that formula. I think you just need to explore more. Especially since the best seinen stories never get adapted into anime.
| @SimplyBrazen Yeah ur right about that, I plan to read more seinen but I don’t have the time 🥲 |
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| It's still not that deep, as someone who likes the genre, unless you're Rurouni Kenshin, Hunter x Hunter, to a lesser extent YuYu Hakusho or anything by Kazuhiro Fujita, said philosophy is still very simple and ham-fisted, they're literally made so 14 year olds could understand it. Naruto is a poorly written mess and One Piece is good but nothing life-changing. People who think these shows are deep haven't watched anything but those shows, you watch or read Neon Genesis Evangelion, Serial Experiments Lain, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Monster, Oyasumi PunPun, Paranoia Agent, Boogiepop Phantom, Wolf's Rain, Ergo Proxy, Kino's Journey, Revolutionary Girl Utena, Oniisama e.. .Key the Metal Idol, even FUCKING Elfen Lied. Naruto looks like a children's book in comparison. |
AzafuseKingToraAug 14, 12:03 AM
Reply to ToG25thBaam
A lot of people shit on battle shonen to make themselves feel good as an "anime elitist" and make themselves feel more "mature" and "grown". I've seen so many comments talking about "battle shonen might be watchable if I was 12 years old" but they themselves are only in their late teens to young adult phase.
A lot of battle shonen are more than just kicks and punches, sadly some anime fans aren't mature enough to realize that adults can enjoy "kids" show too, even shows like Yu Gi Oh, Pokemon or Digimon.
A lot of battle shonen are more than just kicks and punches, sadly some anime fans aren't mature enough to realize that adults can enjoy "kids" show too, even shows like Yu Gi Oh, Pokemon or Digimon.
| @ToG25thBaam Wise words are wise, indeed. I agree with you. In most of cases, battle shounen haters treat hating on it as a badge of honor making them look "better", "more elite" than "plebian battle shounen enjoyers". It's silly, but it's even worse when you realize those people are mostly adults (or want to pose as such) still stuck in their late teen period of life, and argue with real teens on the Internet about whose cartoon is more valuable, or why shounen demographic is not as mature as seinen demographic (no shit, it's called "demographic" for a reason, lol). Speaking about maturity, I find it hilarious when seinen snobs thrash shounens in general, not only battle shounens, by criticizing every little thing from them. Take, for example, manga magazines and their covers. If seinen content is so mature and definitely not infantile, then why so many seinen manga magazines have literally coomer covers with real girls wearing bikini that have nothing to do with the manga titles serialized in said magazines? The same applies to anime. If Monster was released today and it was a shounen, I can imagine people complainig about its repetitiveness, slow pacing without any payoff, weak ending, bland characters. But hey, it's great, because it's not a shounen anime, and it's absolute cinema, because it ain't a battle shounen, lol. In other words, let's just watch what we like, without being overly judgemental when talking about other people who might, surprise surprise, like different type of anime content. |
| I watched enough of them to confidently say that I do not misunderstand the concept. It's just rarely any good. Xianxia do this whole shtick a lot better. It's because in Xianxia protagonists are allowed to kill and have sex. |
Reply to AzafuseKingTora
It's still not that deep, as someone who likes the genre, unless you're Rurouni Kenshin, Hunter x Hunter, to a lesser extent YuYu Hakusho or anything by Kazuhiro Fujita, said philosophy is still very simple and ham-fisted, they're literally made so 14 year olds could understand it. Naruto is a poorly written mess and One Piece is good but nothing life-changing.
People who think these shows are deep haven't watched anything but those shows, you watch or read Neon Genesis Evangelion, Serial Experiments Lain, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Monster, Oyasumi PunPun, Paranoia Agent, Boogiepop Phantom, Wolf's Rain, Ergo Proxy, Kino's Journey, Revolutionary Girl Utena, Oniisama e.. .Key the Metal Idol, even FUCKING Elfen Lied.
Naruto looks like a children's book in comparison.
People who think these shows are deep haven't watched anything but those shows, you watch or read Neon Genesis Evangelion, Serial Experiments Lain, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Monster, Oyasumi PunPun, Paranoia Agent, Boogiepop Phantom, Wolf's Rain, Ergo Proxy, Kino's Journey, Revolutionary Girl Utena, Oniisama e.. .Key the Metal Idol, even FUCKING Elfen Lied.
Naruto looks like a children's book in comparison.
| @AzafuseKingTora I wouldn't say simplifying a theme to make it more easily understandeble by teens or even kids makes it any less deep I've also watched NGE, Lain, Monster, Boogiepop, and although i do agree they have depth to them, they come off to me as trying too hard I don't know what Elfen Lied is doing there, that's just beyond edgy splatter misery porn If i had to give examples of seinen anime with, not more depth, but which show depth in a more mature way i guess, i'd say things like Oshi no Ko, Erases, Gankutsuou, Perfect Blue, Planetes, Psycho-Pass, Vinland saga, i haven't watched Utena series yet, but to give a couple shoujo examples Banana Fish and Orange come to mind But to each their own, everyone has different taste :) |
Reply to TransferUser
I watched enough of them to confidently say that I do not misunderstand the concept. It's just rarely any good.
Xianxia do this whole shtick a lot better. It's because in Xianxia protagonists are allowed to kill and have sex.
Xianxia do this whole shtick a lot better. It's because in Xianxia protagonists are allowed to kill and have sex.
| @TransferUser Hmm... i'm pretty sure Goku has killed villains on screen in Dragon Ball (even though not all of them are permenant), and although this happens understandebly off screen, Goku has 2 kids... i don't think the stalk brought them to him |
| I can't see them as being misunderstood. Just because it's popular doesn't mean everybody will like it. Other popular categorizations like isekai also get shit on by people who don't like them. It's easy, just don't mind them, if you like it then that's that. |
| People shit on generic battle shonen because they are generic. It's the plain white bread of anime, most people start out with a battle shonen and learn the tropes very early on. This makes it very easy to get tired when you check the metaphorical menu and see white bread again. The fanbases around battle shonen are so loud and obnoxious that you actually can't avoid them if you interact with the anime community at all online. I don't see slice of life or sports anime enjoyers going around talking about how their character can relax better than your character or play sports better than your character, but you can bet money that a battle shonen fan will show up uninvited to tell you how their character "solos the verse". Also powerscalers are the absolute worst. |
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| I have mixed feelings about battle shounen. Many of them are great but many of them are also crap. |
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| "does anyone else see a lot of users shit on shounen for no apparent reason?" - >Well ... the fact that they don't like the genre, and sometimes additionally its popularity, is often a very obvious reason. So: not really. "they see fights and screaming characters and immediately their first instinct is to think that it can't possibly be deep or have meaningful themes." - >So we're talking about people who have never actually watched anything and still rant about the shows? I'd say this is more common at the gore/sexuality (nudity, rape, incest, underage)/visual quality area as nomination criteria. I would place being a Battle Shounen somewhere in the middle (along with at least CGDCT/moe) and also with a big gap to the top group. "i mean theres a reason a lot of people say their lives changed after watching shows like One Piece and Naruto." >You shit on shows because you don't like something ... and I don't understand how other people's opinions should influence your own in this regard. "Just because it's packed full of fight scenes and is easy to market to a younger audience [doesnt mean that it has no substance.]" >It's nice that they're trying to reach a younger audience ... but that still doesn't influence the tastes of others and won't stop them from shitting on something. And if it's marketed to a younger audience, but older people are still recommending it to other older people, that could also be an indicator of why some people feel irritated and shit on it. "Just because it's packed full of fight scenes [and is easy to market to a younger audience] doesnt mean that it has no substance." >It doesn't (in a direct logical sense). Although I would classify basically every battle shounen I've seen as having more substance if many of the fight scenes were cut out. Having little substance per time is ultimately very similar to having no substance in the context of an anime (so packing it with fight scenes for younger people may hurt the anime in some instances). "A lot of the fight scenes are the characters challenging each other's philosophies or becoming a new version of themself (internally)" >If the philosophies are perceived as boring by someone, it has no meaning for them either. I would also like to refer to my previous point. >A little side note: Becoming a new version of yourself is nothing important to mention. For most series, it doesn't matter if characters change or stay the same as long as they are well written. Maybe that's the case for some anime with a long running time, but not in general. In any case, it's more of a preference and some people may not like it when characters overcome themselves too often. #### My impression, as someone who gives most battle shounen mediocre scores is that this might also explain others' shitting (and maybe my own ... I don't really know what your idea of shitting is; I often frame/present my opinion as absolute because it's the only one I have ... some people confuse such criticism with some kind of objective statement of quality for everyone and not just for me.): (1) Often I've read/watched reviews/analyses and found that I didn't really miss the themes, but ignored them because they were too boring or I didn't like the presentation (focus, pacing, length, etc.). If the content doesn't reach me, it has no value (~I didn't see any substance). Ultimately, there is a deep content in almost every genre. But it has to reach you in some way for you to consider it as such. Otherwise, the whole CGDCT genre would be called a deep genre with substance, because it portrays non-stop everyday philosophies hidden behind a caricature of naive girls. (2) When I liked a particular theme of a battle shounen that I otherwise didn't (HxH; Gon's worldview/morality that leads him to see Neferpitou as an enemy after she [spoiler] and blames himself - only blames and hates her after she heals Komugi), it seemed like most positive reviews/analyses of that anime missed the point too, like I did at first. So if some of you feel that the themes are harder to recognize because they are hidden in actions and fights... hiding your message from the audience is not necessarily good, especially when it's not just an add-on, but the whole theme of the moment. Not only will everyone miss it, but that means it's often not emotionally touching because you have to get to it by investing energy first. If you combine this with my point 3 as well you are in deep trouble. Remember: something that doesn't reach you the right way is essentially meaningless to you. Even if you realize something at random later, it probably won't really touch you, so it's like an anime character saying they like carrots. Not very substantial. (3) Some things like MHA have left me so numb with simplistic dialog, motivations and fighting that I don't even remember anything of value (watched ~3 seasons). Even if this series has something to offer, my impression that there was no substance will remain. |
| "I don't know everything, I only know what the internet knows." - Definitely not best girl. "To ask is a moment's shame. Not to, lifelong." - I quoted with a posed look. |
Reply to AzafuseKingTora
It's still not that deep, as someone who likes the genre, unless you're Rurouni Kenshin, Hunter x Hunter, to a lesser extent YuYu Hakusho or anything by Kazuhiro Fujita, said philosophy is still very simple and ham-fisted, they're literally made so 14 year olds could understand it. Naruto is a poorly written mess and One Piece is good but nothing life-changing.
People who think these shows are deep haven't watched anything but those shows, you watch or read Neon Genesis Evangelion, Serial Experiments Lain, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Monster, Oyasumi PunPun, Paranoia Agent, Boogiepop Phantom, Wolf's Rain, Ergo Proxy, Kino's Journey, Revolutionary Girl Utena, Oniisama e.. .Key the Metal Idol, even FUCKING Elfen Lied.
Naruto looks like a children's book in comparison.
People who think these shows are deep haven't watched anything but those shows, you watch or read Neon Genesis Evangelion, Serial Experiments Lain, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Monster, Oyasumi PunPun, Paranoia Agent, Boogiepop Phantom, Wolf's Rain, Ergo Proxy, Kino's Journey, Revolutionary Girl Utena, Oniisama e.. .Key the Metal Idol, even FUCKING Elfen Lied.
Naruto looks like a children's book in comparison.
| @AzafuseKingTora I’ve watched all the deep shows you listed except a few and the thing that gives the impression of deep for them is how depressing the overall atmosphere is of their shows and how they don’t shy away from really gruesome topics. Elfen lied? Tbh I challenge you to give me one deep or meaningful thing that came out that mess. I hate elfen lied with a passion 😂. I can say with complete sincerity that it’s nowhere near as deep as naruto gets. Ur looking at one piece and naruto VERY surface level. Just because the overrall vibe is colorful and hopeful does not mean it isn’t as deep as the shows you listed. Kung fu panda ffs is deeper than more than half of it And children books can be deep 🤦♀️ |
Kenzolo-folkAug 14, 5:55 AM
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DigiCat said: i'm pretty sure Goku has killed villains on screen in Dragon Ball (even though not all of them are permenant) Who did he kill? He really struggled before he got to "kill" Frieza and then the guy didn't even die for real. The mindset is different. In Battle anime the protagonist might get to kill someone, but it's usually after a long struggle or having the opponent exposed as irredeemably evil. And then when characters die they might be brought back in some fashion anyway. In Xianxia life is cheap. The protagonists do not struggle to kill a bunch of random clowns and they certainly do not struggle to kill their enemies, who might not even be all that evil. Dragon Ball was copying Xianxia with most of its tropes, but toned down for a younger audience. Incidentally, most Battle anime tend to copy Xianxia in some capacity. It's just that Battle anime take so damn long to tell their story that they never really get to the point that Xianxia get to, which is why Goku in his strongest form is a pathetic weakling compared to Xianxia protagonists in their strongest form. The stories not taking forever to tell is another reason I prefer Xianxia. |
Reply to TransferUser
DigiCat said:
i'm pretty sure Goku has killed villains on screen in Dragon Ball (even though not all of them are permenant)
i'm pretty sure Goku has killed villains on screen in Dragon Ball (even though not all of them are permenant)
Who did he kill?
He really struggled before he got to "kill" Frieza and then the guy didn't even die for real.
The mindset is different. In Battle anime the protagonist might get to kill someone, but it's usually after a long struggle or having the opponent exposed as irredeemably evil. And then when characters die they might be brought back in some fashion anyway.
In Xianxia life is cheap. The protagonists do not struggle to kill a bunch of random clowns and they certainly do not struggle to kill their enemies, who might not even be all that evil.
Dragon Ball was copying Xianxia with most of its tropes, but toned down for a younger audience. Incidentally, most Battle anime tend to copy Xianxia in some capacity. It's just that Battle anime take so damn long to tell their story that they never really get to the point that Xianxia get to, which is why Goku in his strongest form is a pathetic weakling compared to Xianxia protagonists in their strongest form. The stories not taking forever to tell is another reason I prefer Xianxia.
| @TransferUser TransferUser said: He really struggled before he got to "kill" Frieza Yes, that's pretty normal when you have a moral compass |
Reply to TransferUser
DigiCat said:
i'm pretty sure Goku has killed villains on screen in Dragon Ball (even though not all of them are permenant)
i'm pretty sure Goku has killed villains on screen in Dragon Ball (even though not all of them are permenant)
Who did he kill?
He really struggled before he got to "kill" Frieza and then the guy didn't even die for real.
The mindset is different. In Battle anime the protagonist might get to kill someone, but it's usually after a long struggle or having the opponent exposed as irredeemably evil. And then when characters die they might be brought back in some fashion anyway.
In Xianxia life is cheap. The protagonists do not struggle to kill a bunch of random clowns and they certainly do not struggle to kill their enemies, who might not even be all that evil.
Dragon Ball was copying Xianxia with most of its tropes, but toned down for a younger audience. Incidentally, most Battle anime tend to copy Xianxia in some capacity. It's just that Battle anime take so damn long to tell their story that they never really get to the point that Xianxia get to, which is why Goku in his strongest form is a pathetic weakling compared to Xianxia protagonists in their strongest form. The stories not taking forever to tell is another reason I prefer Xianxia.
| @TransferUser You don’t think it’s pretty edgy and irresponsible of creators to support protagonists of teenage stories to kill? |
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Reply to Guilmon1
@desusama powerscaling is a joke, the only fun thing about it is seeing how much nonsense people say, no there isn't a difference between how fast you are while traveling and when you are fighting...
| @Guilmon1 There are people who take it very seriously and are very, very loud about it. It's tragic. |
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| no way shippuuden and one piece have substance, this is way too funny. Bro could have actually used good examples yet he picked the exact opposite of deep battle shounen with substance. |
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JaniSIr said: Style > Substance The most stylish and substantial response in the entire thread remains unnoticed. Now let's look for "depth" in battle shonen. |
| Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. |
Reply to Kenzolo-folk
@AzafuseKingTora
I’ve watched all the deep shows you listed except a few and the thing that gives the impression of deep for them is how depressing the overall atmosphere is of their shows and how they don’t shy away from really gruesome topics. Elfen lied? Tbh I challenge you to give me one deep or meaningful thing that came out that mess. I hate elfen lied with a passion 😂. I can say with complete sincerity that it’s nowhere near as deep as naruto gets. Ur looking at one piece and naruto VERY surface level. Just because the overrall vibe is colorful and hopeful does not mean it isn’t as deep as the shows you listed. Kung fu panda ffs is deeper than more than half of it
And children books can be deep 🤦♀️
I’ve watched all the deep shows you listed except a few and the thing that gives the impression of deep for them is how depressing the overall atmosphere is of their shows and how they don’t shy away from really gruesome topics. Elfen lied? Tbh I challenge you to give me one deep or meaningful thing that came out that mess. I hate elfen lied with a passion 😂. I can say with complete sincerity that it’s nowhere near as deep as naruto gets. Ur looking at one piece and naruto VERY surface level. Just because the overrall vibe is colorful and hopeful does not mean it isn’t as deep as the shows you listed. Kung fu panda ffs is deeper than more than half of it
And children books can be deep 🤦♀️
| @Kenzolo-folk Yes, Kung Fu Panda is deeper than Naruto. |
| Yeah, it kind of sucks cause i have a soft spot for battle shonen. But i guess people just view it as childish and something they "Grew out of". |
| My waifu is the most wonderful waifu. Mai Valentine. |
Kenzolo-folk said: irresponsible of creators to support protagonists of teenage stories to kill It's just a story, relax. Or do you take issue with.... 2001, Noir 2003, Gunslinger Girl 2004, Elfen Lied 2006, Death Note 2006, Code Geass 2006, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni 2006, Black Lagoon 2008, Golgo 13 2010, Katanagatari 2012, Jormungand 2014, Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei 2015, Overlord 2016, Drifters 2017, Youjo Senki 2024, Sokushi Cheat ga Saikyou Sugite, Isekai no Yatsura ga Marude Aite ni Naranai n desu ga Man, 2006 really was a good year for anime. |
Reply to AzafuseKingTora
@Kenzolo-folk Yes, Kung Fu Panda is deeper than Naruto.
| @AzafuseKingTora Funnily enough they’re kinda the same story |
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Reply to LoveYourSmile
JaniSIr said:
Style > Substance
Style > Substance
The most stylish and substantial response in the entire thread remains unnoticed. Now let's look for "depth" in battle shonen.
| @LoveYourSmile At least somebody appreciates the truth. |
This dance is the pinnacle of human achievement. |
Reply to TransferUser
Kenzolo-folk said:
irresponsible of creators to support protagonists of teenage stories to kill
irresponsible of creators to support protagonists of teenage stories to kill
It's just a story, relax.
Or do you take issue with....
2001, Noir
2003, Gunslinger Girl
2004, Elfen Lied
2006, Death Note
2006, Code Geass
2006, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni
2006, Black Lagoon
2008, Golgo 13
2010, Katanagatari
2012, Jormungand
2014, Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei
2015, Overlord
2016, Drifters
2017, Youjo Senki
2024, Sokushi Cheat ga Saikyou Sugite, Isekai no Yatsura ga Marude Aite ni Naranai n desu ga
Man, 2006 really was a good year for anime.
| @TransferUser A few of those managed to make it believable... But then there is the entire mecha genre, that's borderline unwatchable because of the age of the characters. And no, Code Geass is not an exception, that's in the totally ridiculous category, even if I have it favorited. |
This dance is the pinnacle of human achievement. |
Reply to TransferUser
Kenzolo-folk said:
irresponsible of creators to support protagonists of teenage stories to kill
irresponsible of creators to support protagonists of teenage stories to kill
It's just a story, relax.
Or do you take issue with....
2001, Noir
2003, Gunslinger Girl
2004, Elfen Lied
2006, Death Note
2006, Code Geass
2006, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni
2006, Black Lagoon
2008, Golgo 13
2010, Katanagatari
2012, Jormungand
2014, Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei
2015, Overlord
2016, Drifters
2017, Youjo Senki
2024, Sokushi Cheat ga Saikyou Sugite, Isekai no Yatsura ga Marude Aite ni Naranai n desu ga
Man, 2006 really was a good year for anime.
| @TransferUser Most of those aren’t even shounen. |
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Reply to Kenzolo-folk
| @Kenzolo-folk And I do not know why you all argue about it. If someone (in this case, TransferUser) doesn't like an anime because it's too forgiving in terms of death, that doesn't change based on who the anime was made for. |
| "I don't know everything, I only know what the internet knows." - Definitely not best girl. "To ask is a moment's shame. Not to, lifelong." - I quoted with a posed look. |
Reply to ShinyLotus
@Kenzolo-folk And I do not know why you all argue about it.
If someone (in this case, TransferUser) doesn't like an anime because it's too forgiving in terms of death, that doesn't change based on who the anime was made for.
If someone (in this case, TransferUser) doesn't like an anime because it's too forgiving in terms of death, that doesn't change based on who the anime was made for.
| @ShinyLotus I’m just confused by their argument, if their preference is more death in a show that’s fine but how is a shounen objectively bad just because the teenagers aren’t killing everyone on sight |
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Reply to ShinyLotus
"does anyone else see a lot of users shit on shounen for no apparent reason?" -
>Well ... the fact that they don't like the genre, and sometimes additionally its popularity, is often a very obvious reason. So: not really.
"they see fights and screaming characters and immediately their first instinct is to think that it can't possibly be deep or have meaningful themes." -
>So we're talking about people who have never actually watched anything and still rant about the shows? I'd say this is more common at the gore/sexuality (nudity, rape, incest, underage)/visual quality area as nomination criteria. I would place being a Battle Shounen somewhere in the middle (along with at least CGDCT/moe) and also with a big gap to the top group.
"i mean theres a reason a lot of people say their lives changed after watching shows like One Piece and Naruto."
>You shit on shows because you don't like something ... and I don't understand how other people's opinions should influence your own in this regard.
"Just because it's packed full of fight scenes and is easy to market to a younger audience [doesnt mean that it has no substance.]"
>It's nice that they're trying to reach a younger audience ... but that still doesn't influence the tastes of others and won't stop them from shitting on something. And if it's marketed to a younger audience, but older people are still recommending it to other older people, that could also be an indicator of why some people feel irritated and shit on it.
"Just because it's packed full of fight scenes [and is easy to market to a younger audience] doesnt mean that it has no substance."
>It doesn't (in a direct logical sense). Although I would classify basically every battle shounen I've seen as having more substance if many of the fight scenes were cut out. Having little substance per time is ultimately very similar to having no substance in the context of an anime (so packing it with fight scenes for younger people may hurt the anime in some instances).
"A lot of the fight scenes are the characters challenging each other's philosophies or becoming a new version of themself (internally)"
>If the philosophies are perceived as boring by someone, it has no meaning for them either. I would also like to refer to my previous point.
>A little side note: Becoming a new version of yourself is nothing important to mention. For most series, it doesn't matter if characters change or stay the same as long as they are well written. Maybe that's the case for some anime with a long running time, but not in general. In any case, it's more of a preference and some people may not like it when characters overcome themselves too often.
####
My impression, as someone who gives most battle shounen mediocre scores is that this might also explain others' shitting (and maybe my own ... I don't really know what your idea of shitting is; I often frame/present my opinion as absolute because it's the only one I have ... some people confuse such criticism with some kind of objective statement of quality for everyone and not just for me.):
(1) Often I've read/watched reviews/analyses and found that I didn't really miss the themes, but ignored them because they were too boring or I didn't like the presentation (focus, pacing, length, etc.). If the content doesn't reach me, it has no value (~I didn't see any substance).
Ultimately, there is a deep content in almost every genre. But it has to reach you in some way for you to consider it as such. Otherwise, the whole CGDCT genre would be called a deep genre with substance, because it portrays non-stop everyday philosophies hidden behind a caricature of naive girls.
(2) When I liked a particular theme of a battle shounen that I otherwise didn't (HxH; Gon's worldview/morality that leads him to see Neferpitou as an enemy after she [spoiler] and blames himself - only blames and hates her after she heals Komugi), it seemed like most positive reviews/analyses of that anime missed the point too, like I did at first. So if some of you feel that the themes are harder to recognize because they are hidden in actions and fights... hiding your message from the audience is not necessarily good, especially when it's not just an add-on, but the whole theme of the moment. Not only will everyone miss it, but that means it's often not emotionally touching because you have to get to it by investing energy first. If you combine this with my point 3 as well you are in deep trouble.
Remember: something that doesn't reach you the right way is essentially meaningless to you. Even if you realize something at random later, it probably won't really touch you, so it's like an anime character saying they like carrots. Not very substantial.
(3) Some things like MHA have left me so numb with simplistic dialog, motivations and fighting that I don't even remember anything of value (watched ~3 seasons). Even if this series has something to offer, my impression that there was no substance will remain.
>Well ... the fact that they don't like the genre, and sometimes additionally its popularity, is often a very obvious reason. So: not really.
"they see fights and screaming characters and immediately their first instinct is to think that it can't possibly be deep or have meaningful themes." -
>So we're talking about people who have never actually watched anything and still rant about the shows? I'd say this is more common at the gore/sexuality (nudity, rape, incest, underage)/visual quality area as nomination criteria. I would place being a Battle Shounen somewhere in the middle (along with at least CGDCT/moe) and also with a big gap to the top group.
"i mean theres a reason a lot of people say their lives changed after watching shows like One Piece and Naruto."
>You shit on shows because you don't like something ... and I don't understand how other people's opinions should influence your own in this regard.
"Just because it's packed full of fight scenes and is easy to market to a younger audience [doesnt mean that it has no substance.]"
>It's nice that they're trying to reach a younger audience ... but that still doesn't influence the tastes of others and won't stop them from shitting on something. And if it's marketed to a younger audience, but older people are still recommending it to other older people, that could also be an indicator of why some people feel irritated and shit on it.
"Just because it's packed full of fight scenes [and is easy to market to a younger audience] doesnt mean that it has no substance."
>It doesn't (in a direct logical sense). Although I would classify basically every battle shounen I've seen as having more substance if many of the fight scenes were cut out. Having little substance per time is ultimately very similar to having no substance in the context of an anime (so packing it with fight scenes for younger people may hurt the anime in some instances).
"A lot of the fight scenes are the characters challenging each other's philosophies or becoming a new version of themself (internally)"
>If the philosophies are perceived as boring by someone, it has no meaning for them either. I would also like to refer to my previous point.
>A little side note: Becoming a new version of yourself is nothing important to mention. For most series, it doesn't matter if characters change or stay the same as long as they are well written. Maybe that's the case for some anime with a long running time, but not in general. In any case, it's more of a preference and some people may not like it when characters overcome themselves too often.
####
My impression, as someone who gives most battle shounen mediocre scores is that this might also explain others' shitting (and maybe my own ... I don't really know what your idea of shitting is; I often frame/present my opinion as absolute because it's the only one I have ... some people confuse such criticism with some kind of objective statement of quality for everyone and not just for me.):
(1) Often I've read/watched reviews/analyses and found that I didn't really miss the themes, but ignored them because they were too boring or I didn't like the presentation (focus, pacing, length, etc.). If the content doesn't reach me, it has no value (~I didn't see any substance).
Ultimately, there is a deep content in almost every genre. But it has to reach you in some way for you to consider it as such. Otherwise, the whole CGDCT genre would be called a deep genre with substance, because it portrays non-stop everyday philosophies hidden behind a caricature of naive girls.
(2) When I liked a particular theme of a battle shounen that I otherwise didn't (HxH; Gon's worldview/morality that leads him to see Neferpitou as an enemy after she [spoiler] and blames himself - only blames and hates her after she heals Komugi), it seemed like most positive reviews/analyses of that anime missed the point too, like I did at first. So if some of you feel that the themes are harder to recognize because they are hidden in actions and fights... hiding your message from the audience is not necessarily good, especially when it's not just an add-on, but the whole theme of the moment. Not only will everyone miss it, but that means it's often not emotionally touching because you have to get to it by investing energy first. If you combine this with my point 3 as well you are in deep trouble.
Remember: something that doesn't reach you the right way is essentially meaningless to you. Even if you realize something at random later, it probably won't really touch you, so it's like an anime character saying they like carrots. Not very substantial.
(3) Some things like MHA have left me so numb with simplistic dialog, motivations and fighting that I don't even remember anything of value (watched ~3 seasons). Even if this series has something to offer, my impression that there was no substance will remain.
| @ShinyLotus “we're talking about people who have never actually watched anything and still rant about the shows? I'd say this is more common at the gore/sexuality (nudity, rape, incest, underage)/visual quality area as nomination criteria. I would place being a Battle Shounen somewhere in the middle (along with at least CGDCT/moe) and also with a big gap to the top group.” >ywah that’s true altho I’ve seen quite a few who have completed many shounen “You shit on shows because you don't like something ... and I don't understand how other people's opinions should influence your own in this regard“ >they don’t actually, I’m just pointing out something I’ve noticed 👀 “It doesn't (in a direct logical sense). Although I would classify basically every battle shounen I've seen as having more substance if many of the fight scenes were cut out. Having little substance per time is ultimately very similar to having no substance in the context of an anime (so packing it with fight scenes for younger people may hurt the anime in some instances” >that’s fair, although some of them wouldn’t be as impactful if there wasn’t a fight scene (kakashi vs obito for instance) “For most series, it doesn't matter if characters change or stay the same as long as they are well written. Maybe that's the case for some anime with a long running time, but not in general. In any case, it's more of a preference and some people may not like it when characters overcome themselves too often” >I heavily disagree, people like seeing development in characters so that the story seems like it has stakes and all the events that’s happened thus far were actually important. If a character (especially the main character) stays the exact same throughout the entire series, especially notably long series like battle shounen then I don’t think most people are satisfied by this type of writing. I don’t expect shounen to be meaningful to everyone, but discrediting its ability to make people change something about themselves or give them a positive outlook about something is undoubtably meaningful. Some shows have absoloutely no meaning at all, (elfen lord for instance) some things just happen for the sake of happening and there’s no actual commentary to be made about it. Not saying that’s necessary, but there are definitely objectively “meaningful” shows, it just comes down to whether that meaning resonated with you or not if that makes sense. For example I don’t resonate with denji’s downbad characterization but I can understand it’s meaningful because he wants to be controlled because he’s always had to make decisions for himself considering his horrible childhood |
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Reply to Kenzolo-folk
@ShinyLotus
I’m just confused by their argument, if their preference is more death in a show that’s fine but how is a shounen objectively bad just because the teenagers aren’t killing everyone on sight
I’m just confused by their argument, if their preference is more death in a show that’s fine but how is a shounen objectively bad just because the teenagers aren’t killing everyone on sight
| @Kenzolo-folk First of all, expressing your opinion (like he did) about what is good or bad does not mean that it is objectively good/bad, but that you have your own absolute opinion about whether it is good/bad. It's possible to think that one's absolute opinion is also absolute for everyone else (~objectively true), but TransferUser never said so. He just explained that he gave it many tries to be sure he didn't disliked it out of a misunderstanding. Secondly, almost every post in this thread isn't about why people don't see any substance in Battle Shounen, why people shit on Battle Shounen, or answering the topic's question, and instead it's just about stating tastes or talking about other people's tastes (or some other sideshow argument). Probably because many do not understand that only the video and audio itself are objective substance while actually talking about subjective substance (whether a topic and how it is presented is worthy of being considered deep or "real" substance beyond the audio/video is a question answered by your tastes). So there's nothing special about TransferUser simply voicing his dislike of Battle Shounen. But he is one of many to ignore the topic. That I agree with. |
| "I don't know everything, I only know what the internet knows." - Definitely not best girl. "To ask is a moment's shame. Not to, lifelong." - I quoted with a posed look. |
Reply to Kenzolo-folk
| @Kenzolo-folk But Kung Fu Panda is better executed |
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