| Good day to ya’ll. I have observed that the harem genre is getting alot of hate because of how overly cliched and overly used it is on modern anime/manga. However, I do know that it has alot of good points too. This forum is mostly just me trying to get help from other people regarding their takes about the genre itself as a whole |
Y'all be good folks, Lolis are Beautiful Angels.  |
| I do not have any problems with the harem genre overall. Obviously, it depends on the anime, but I like the writing for many of characters in some harems and some could be pretty funny too. |
| I like harem anime, but generally prefer the chose a girl type end to them. The Mc picking one always further validates a genuine romance. Harem ends generally come off as poorly written fanfiction in most cases. The male lead in harem is important since they generally get the most screentime. I enjoyed some true harems too like dxd. Rance is goated. |
rohan121Feb 7, 7:28 PM
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| I love the harem genre almost entirely because of the community. Watching a bland guy have tons of attractive women falling all over him for no reason? Boring! Arguing for months with your friends about why your favorite girl is superior to all of theirs? Yes please! |
| Imagine if every harem lead guy was a Rance clone. |
| :v |
| Any genre can be good as long as you like the characters and/or the comedy. |
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| I don't think there's any rational arguments in favor of this sub-genre, nor that it needs them in the first place. Just be the raccoon you were meant to be, dig through the trash, and with a bright smile on your face declare that yes, it has always been a wish fulfillment fantasy that's only there for pandering to your emotional proclivities, what's anyone gonna do about it anyway? That, at least, I consider worthy of respect. |
| @spacecobra5 okay lol. Do you have anything of actual substance to say, or do you just enjoy acting like a smug twat. |
Reply to TheMechaManiac
Harem is hated because the Western world has been trained to hate on anything related to polygamy for well over a 1000 years now. Americans are the loudest in this regard because they also had the Mormon scare. Also, feminists who cry about the "male gaze" and literally any sign of nudity in media yet say nothing about all the skimpily-dressed women (some being schoolgirls, even) that go out on a nightly basis.
| @TheMechaManiac Well yes polygamy is an aberration and shouldn't even exist. I consider it as cheating. Also, notice how it is always a romance between one character and all the others but never between the other characters whereas a true polyamorous relationship needs all the individuals to be attracted to each others. ie: a trouple. |
| Don't worry, harem hate is just self-righteous moral high ground, so there's no need to take it seriously. |
| Some pretty dumb takes in this thread. There's some actually great ones but for the most part... the harem genre is very mid. That's where I think most of the "hate" comes from. Only the most impressively uninformed people think these shows actually have anything to do with muh polygamy. They're really nothing more than classic love triangle romcoms with a few extra love interests. Sure, there's an element of wish fulfillment there. Harem anime panders to that deeply disturbed subgroup of males who *gasp* ya know, like GIRLS. But seriously most of them aren't exactly explicit or dirty. Some of them are surprisingly wholesome and funny. But, most anime in general sucks and that applies to the harem genre too. Nothing to get your pantsu in a bunch about. |
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| >Thread named "In the Defense of Harem Genre" >zero actual arguments to defend the harem genre kakw |
| I would normally be considered a harem hater, but you know what? I'm gonna try for the actual defense here. Because I think there is a lot of potential in the genre that isn't really lived up to. Plus, I just don't feel like working and this thread just tickled my fancy lol. The most common criticism Ive heard against the genre itself is that it's just icky wish fulfillment, but 1) It doesn't have to be icky and 2) A majority of media is wish fulfillment in some way or another, that alone can't disqualify it from being taken seriously. When ya strip it down to its base elements, a harem is just a story with one central character and a buncha characters of the opposite gender who happen to be romantically interested in them. You can take that in a LOT of directions. CGDCT show with a subtle twinge of romance? Sure. Huge melodrama exploring the angst and inevitable disappointment of stupid teenagers in love? Yea, that can be a harem too. Comedic, raunchy romp where a buncha girls are vying for one man's dick for no reason other than for the lolz? Well, that's most of the harems, but you get what I mean. Theres a kind of versatility of concept that makes it tough to just dismiss harems as a whole. Why can't there be critically acclaimed harem anime? It's just a vague genre just like Action and Drama, there's nothing stopping some madlad from going hog wild and making some really cool art. Regardless of the ambition, regardless of the aforementioned direction taken, I think we can come up with a few rules for how to make a harem tick 1. Your characters have to be good No shit, right? It should go without saying. But when your setup is so dependent on character interaction, a weak link can be fatal. When you've got some basic, uninspired trope sitting there with no chance of getting the guy, it feels like they're transparent filler meant to pad out the runtime or sell merch to the one weirdo who latched onto them for some obscure psychological reason (no judgment, I've been there too). It breaks the immersion, making the pandering more obvious and frustrating. 2. Your characters have to be contenders By the nature of setup, not every member of the harem is going to have an equal chance of winning, but at the very least there shouldn't be a painfully obvious winner from the get-go and there shouldn't be anyone who obviously is disqualified for the running (unless you're gonna delegate them to a set/apparent supporting role outside the main harem dynamic). When you rock the former, you basically become a standard romance anime with dead weight dragged along preventing any compelling or meaningful development. When the later happens you end up with a similar situation as Rule #1 where you have this character who's obvious annoying filler. The audience should be able to realistically imagine the main character getting together with any of the harem members, even if its a stretch of the imagination. 3. You have to commit This is the most common blunder of the genre in my experience. I can't even count the amount of shows that have already broken Rule #2 and brought this obvious winner to the forefront only to sheepishly back away in the last few minutes, trying to shove everyone back into the status quo. It's so frustrating and really sinks in that your time invested in the anime was a waste. Don't get me wrong, the characters deciding to uphold the status quo and nobody "winning" is a viable option. But the characters have to logically get to that point and have some sense of agreement. Or, just lean into the namesake and make it an actual bonafide harem where everyone is a winner in a polyamorous relationship. Hell, anything but just going back to square one and leaving all this sexual tension sitting there ignored and unanswered. 4. You have to have a point besides selling merch Honestly this just goes for every anime as far as I'm concerned. I shouldn't be here as an audience member wondering why something was made. It doesn't have to be a grand point, it could be as simple as: "I wanna make the audience laugh" or "I want to draw sexy ladies". That kind of pointed drive is what distinguishes the shows people fondly look back on from the seasonal slop that will be consumed and forgotten within a few months. There's an oversaturation of harems and things that pretend to be harems but are too worried about the baggage associated with that kind of designation, and that makes it all the more disappointing when something comes into the game with no point outside of sales. Just make something you want to make, holy shit. Welp, I guess that's it. I feel like I ended up griping more about the problems I have with the genre rather than defending it, but thats ultimately a result of low quality standards outside of my control. I just want to reiterate as my final defense that harems aren't inherently bad, its just another idea that can be executed poorly or passionately as all ideas can be. On the bright side, the one rule that harems are more liable to follow is Rule #1. While its rare for all the characters to be good, its not uncommon to find a nice waifu while dredging through harem hell. So while you might not find a Top 10 favorite anime for your MAL, you could end up with a Top 10 favorite character which is a respectable consolation prize. |
| There isnt a need to defend any genre since any criticism is always a generalization that isnt true for everything. |
I feel most issues I have with the genre are just with how some of the tropes no longer appeal to me at all. Here's some things I think could be done to make them more appealing to me.
But I will say there are some things that I do think are done pretty well right now such as
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This post is brought to you by your local transfem gamer goblin. Will not tolerate bigotry and will fight against "anti-woke" sentiment to make the anime community a safer place.  |
| I think the difference between harem, and a "respectable" genre, is that in a respectable genre, you can make a really good anime just by doing that genre really well. "A really good super robot show" or "a really good slice of life show" or " a really good magic girl show" will be a good anime. But all the good harem anime are unusual in some way. The basic concept is not something which can really be "done well", you need to at least lowkey be going for something else. All of my favourite harem anime, for instance seem to either be utsuge adaptions or have large elements of parody. |
| Actually I don't hate the genre for those reasons at all. The reason harems are hated so much is: The entire point of having a bunch of girls drooped all over you is to have multiple choice zecks partners. But in harem animes the dude is usually some pathetic kid (usually with black hair and looks like he's 13) who acts all embarrassed and is too pathetic to bed one of the girls (usually) Since the entire concept revolves around courtship there's nothing else about such an anime to watch (not the setting, the PLOT, the fight scenes, nothing) Harem hentai on the other hand are fine. Got any recommendations? |
| I think one interesting thing is that pure harem shows are actually rare these days. Harems or certain aspects of them are present in other shows, be it Sword Art Online or Irregular at Magic High School. I think one reason is practicality. If the harem aspect falls flat, there are other elements the story can rely on to retain a viewer's interest. Another is that it is narratively easier to justify a woman or girl's attraction to the main character if they are a heroic individual. Additionally, an issue many harems have when it comes to readership retention because they can avoid unnecessary character drama. By substituting other dramatic elements such as danger more commonplace to the adventure and action genres, harems can avoid these pitfalls that ruined many other romantic works. In fact, I argue having an action adventure aspect to the series can add another layer of dimensionality to otherwise "cliche" heroines. Who doesn't want to see a girl kick ass? I think this is true if an author or artist is not particularly that keen on character design or overall skills; bad as it is, Rent A Girlfriend has some of the most stunning designs for its heroines, and it stands out for being particularly noxious for its character writing. Overall? Harems haven't gone away so much as they have been integrated into less niche genres that are just more profitable to produce and more exciting to watch. |
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| @CureEtude , You can take that in a LOT of directions. CGDCT show with a subtle twinge of romance? Sure. Huge melodrama exploring the angst and inevitable disappointment of stupid teenagers in love? Yea, that can be a harem too. Okay, that's a nice sentiment which I share, doesn't seem to work in reality though. Let me try and give a few examples. School Days plays around with the idea of exactly what kind of characters would it take to qualify for a harem cast member, and subverts the ever-present meme of farcical irresponsibility in, if not realistic, at least an authentic way, and everyone hates it. Domestic na Kanojo the TV anime, which has all the framing devices of a harem anyway, explores the catastrophic consequences of idiotic decisions made by hormonally possessed characters who never learn, among other things, and the vast majority of people I've spoken to hate it. Umi no Misaki, which is like one of the best harem manga I'm aware of, gleefully tramples over the more frustrating conventions of the sub-genre, and barely anyone even knows and cares about it. I like these stories, but I'm also keenly aware that my point of view is deviant and completely irrelevant. Also, isn't 'CGDCT show with a subtle twinge of romance' literally every other CGDCT show anyway. So while I may be talking outta my ass, evidence seem to suggest that unless the harem thing is played straight and in its more formulaic implementation, people tend to either largely ignore or be actively hostile to it. |
Reply to iThink
@CureEtude ,
Okay, that's a nice sentiment which I share, doesn't seem to work in reality though.
Let me try and give a few examples.
School Days plays around with the idea of exactly what kind of characters would it take to qualify for a harem cast member, and subverts the ever-present meme of farcical irresponsibility in, if not realistic, at least an authentic way, and everyone hates it.
Domestic na Kanojo the TV anime, which has all the framing devices of a harem anyway, explores the catastrophic consequences of idiotic decisions made by hormonally possessed characters who never learn, among other things, and the vast majority of people I've spoken to hate it.
Umi no Misaki, which is like one of the best harem manga I'm aware of, gleefully tramples over the more frustrating conventions of the sub-genre, and barely anyone even knows and cares about it.
I like these stories, but I'm also keenly aware that my point of view is deviant and completely irrelevant.
Also, isn't 'CGDCT show with a subtle twinge of romance' literally every other CGDCT show anyway.
So while I may be talking outta my ass, evidence seem to suggest that unless the harem thing is played straight and in its more formulaic implementation, people tend to either largely ignore or be actively hostile to it.
You can take that in a LOT of directions. CGDCT show with a subtle twinge of romance? Sure. Huge melodrama exploring the angst and inevitable disappointment of stupid teenagers in love? Yea, that can be a harem too.
Okay, that's a nice sentiment which I share, doesn't seem to work in reality though.
Let me try and give a few examples.
School Days plays around with the idea of exactly what kind of characters would it take to qualify for a harem cast member, and subverts the ever-present meme of farcical irresponsibility in, if not realistic, at least an authentic way, and everyone hates it.
Domestic na Kanojo the TV anime, which has all the framing devices of a harem anyway, explores the catastrophic consequences of idiotic decisions made by hormonally possessed characters who never learn, among other things, and the vast majority of people I've spoken to hate it.
Umi no Misaki, which is like one of the best harem manga I'm aware of, gleefully tramples over the more frustrating conventions of the sub-genre, and barely anyone even knows and cares about it.
I like these stories, but I'm also keenly aware that my point of view is deviant and completely irrelevant.
Also, isn't 'CGDCT show with a subtle twinge of romance' literally every other CGDCT show anyway.
So while I may be talking outta my ass, evidence seem to suggest that unless the harem thing is played straight and in its more formulaic implementation, people tend to either largely ignore or be actively hostile to it.
| @iThink That's fair tbh. I guess those examples are moreso extremes to illustrate the versatility and make my boring, nihilistic point of "Any art can be good" more palatable. You are right that it's a theoretical sentiment that hasn't really panned out historically, I'd just be really excited to see it actually work lol. Also, I wouldn't say that every other CGDCT show would fit into the harem format like we discussing. Most CGDCT opt to skip the male MC entirely and just have the subtle twinge of romance blossom between the girls. And even when they do that, most CGDCT pair their girls off rather than having all of them interested in a central character. Personally, I think those are all-around good decisions, but again, that section is mostly just giving examples of direction to be taken and how vague the definition of 'harem' really is. I wasn't trying to say that those shows would be better than a bread-and-butter, formulaic harem like we are used to. |
Reply to CureEtude
@iThink
That's fair tbh. I guess those examples are moreso extremes to illustrate the versatility and make my boring, nihilistic point of "Any art can be good" more palatable. You are right that it's a theoretical sentiment that hasn't really panned out historically, I'd just be really excited to see it actually work lol.
Also, I wouldn't say that every other CGDCT show would fit into the harem format like we discussing. Most CGDCT opt to skip the male MC entirely and just have the subtle twinge of romance blossom between the girls. And even when they do that, most CGDCT pair their girls off rather than having all of them interested in a central character. Personally, I think those are all-around good decisions, but again, that section is mostly just giving examples of direction to be taken and how vague the definition of 'harem' really is. I wasn't trying to say that those shows would be better than a bread-and-butter, formulaic harem like we are used to.
That's fair tbh. I guess those examples are moreso extremes to illustrate the versatility and make my boring, nihilistic point of "Any art can be good" more palatable. You are right that it's a theoretical sentiment that hasn't really panned out historically, I'd just be really excited to see it actually work lol.
Also, I wouldn't say that every other CGDCT show would fit into the harem format like we discussing. Most CGDCT opt to skip the male MC entirely and just have the subtle twinge of romance blossom between the girls. And even when they do that, most CGDCT pair their girls off rather than having all of them interested in a central character. Personally, I think those are all-around good decisions, but again, that section is mostly just giving examples of direction to be taken and how vague the definition of 'harem' really is. I wasn't trying to say that those shows would be better than a bread-and-butter, formulaic harem like we are used to.
| @CureEtude fair enough, thanks for a good talk. |
| I think the main issue people have with harems is that the protagonist is often a very one-dimensional insert that is so shy and gets nervous so easily it is hard to imagine him getting a girlfriend never mind an entire harem. Therefore, the way girls fall over him seems unbelievable. That plus many harem shows follow a very formulaic structure and rely heavily on anime tropes makes it off putting to a significant number of people. I would also imagine that as these girls fall for the guy so easily one could view they don't actually have agency and are just there to fulfil a fantasy or provide cheap fanservice to the audience. This won't go down well with certain people. Now I am not saying it is wrong to like harem but feel those are the main reasons I believe why people would dislike such shows. |
| With harem anime, it mainly comes down to the handling of the characters for me. Make them too shallow and/or sexually aggressive to the point where they're pushing into sexual assault territory, I get turned off by them. Give them enough dimension as far as personality and their relationship dynamics go, I could find myself caring for them. At least as far as recent entries in the genre go, High School DxD and the Quintessential Quintuplets were harems I grew to care for with the effort they put into fleshing out their characters and the chemistry between them. |
| harem is only good in fiction or fantasy but in real life better stick to one lover for less problems |
| Need it be defended? I mean sure there's objectification of women, that's the principle of the entirety of erotica media — okay it's true in a select few harem shows, perhaps. Or not, idk? Ecchi harem is a very prominent relationship in genre relationships in anime I feel like If people are put off by that it's totally okay. I personally like harem anime when it's in older anime cuz then it is historical and I can distanciate myself from it being too new, so morally relevant or close to me @deg I believe that with clear communications and expectations you can make a threesome throuple or smth work, a polycule basically. It's rather common in the trans community I think? I'd like to be part of a polycule >.> |
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| @EmiliaHoarfrost jealousy is gonna be a problem in most cases i think like me im kinda possessive but ye if youre open minded enough it can work |
Reply to rohan121
I like harem anime, but generally prefer the chose a girl type end to them. The Mc picking one always further validates a genuine romance. Harem ends generally come off as poorly written fanfiction in most cases. The male lead in harem is important since they generally get the most screentime. I enjoyed some true harems too like dxd. Rance is goated.
| @rohan121 The majority of all harems with end with the MC choosing the main girl or no resolution. Actual harem endings are extremely rare. |
| Don't really watch harem myself, (the only one I've seen is maybe toraburu if that even counts? or monster musume oissha-san something something) but I do think harem does have one really likable quality that I rarely see brought up. That is, it provides an "escape route" to love polygons. In regular romance, it is as common as a leaf in a forest for multiple people to be interested in one person. Often authors go out of their way to create such situations, I suppose because its more dramatic that way. But conversely, it means that in romance someone is always going to be a loser, if there's 1 guy and 5 suitors 4 of them are going to eat shit by the end. Of course its not the end of the world or anything, some of them may even find love with someone else (though the more you build up someone as "the suitor" the harder it is to have them suddenly lose all attachment in what they believed and just date someone else, it makes everything feel cheap, more likely that character is just going to be misrable for the rest of the series). But in any case, I personally don't like the inevitable "suffer porn" that results from romance polygons with one person having their dreams crushed after the other. Harems subvert that, because all the girls can be winners. Of course, the price for this is that harems are way less dramatic, and usually a bit trashy, its all just a childish fantasy where everyone can be happy. But there are worse fantasies out there, for what its worth I do think there is some appeal in the fantasy of a harem. |
| harem tries to insert itself in comedy genre so i would always try to watch it. it's a bit of pain if you're on the losing side though lol |
| When I want to watch something of absolutely no substance I put on a harem anime. |
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