Gintoki wasn't handled well in this movie

Jay_Burson-510 said:
I mean it was still heartbreaking either way even if Gintoki was not the one who actively killed Takasugi.


Also I think you meant the Silver Soul Arc in your last statement. I think I heard others just call the episodes after episode 8 of Kouhen-sen to be "After Silver Soul Arc" even technically it is still a part of the Silver Soul Arc. Regardless, you are still kinda wrong about calling it the narrative finale since Utsuro was still alive, the Odd Jobs was still split apart, Takasugi's character arc wasn't done yet, and the status quo was not yet still fully realized without Gintoki. It isn't comparable to how Naruto ended where the Naruto vs Sasuke fight was the narrative finale and everything after that is the epilogue because the end of the SS arc still leaves a bit of wiggle room to further develop some key details in the After SS arc while the last naruto movie was just about how Naruto is going forward with his life.

Jay_Burson-510 said:
Look I don't know what your on about here. I can see why you don't think Gintama The Final is on par with the SA arc and with good reason to it. But your take about Gintoki is hella wrong in more than one aspects.

First, having Gintoki suffer to another psychological state of sadness and void is redundant to his character. He already suffered numerous times with various shits before like with his origin, Shoyo's death, the 13th Yaemon's sacrifice, Otose being seemingly dead, remembering his trauma because of Oboro, Nobunnobu's death, Utsuro's reveal, and Utsuro escaping. You can see through this moments some level of Gintoki's maturity in accepting his past and learning to face the said obstacles. When Takasugi dies, he despairs but understands that this doesn't mean he should stay sad too long because other people need him right now, like Shoyo the guy both of them adored.

Second, he is not alone anymore. Unlike when Shoyo first died, he didn't suddenly leave the war and ended up lost in Edo. At this point of the movie, he has made enough connections with others. People that need him and people that he needs. He is not a void anymore. This brings us to the my third point;

Third, this topic was brought about by Utsuro himself at the climax of their fight and was answered by Gintoki. As to quote Utsuro, "If you kill you master for your friends, and then kill your friend for your master, what will that leave you with? Nothing. You'll be nothing but a hollow void." Gintoki then responded to this with saying, "I... will never be empty inside. What I wanted to protect is right here with me." This not only furthered my point that Gintoki is now mature enough to accept his death but also the fact that, especially while watching the rest of the Utsuro fight, Gintoki is prepared to accept Takasugi's feelings and carry on his will. He values him so much as a friend, as a comrade, as a rival, and as a fellow disciple and that him becoming nothing is disrespectful to Takasugi's life. He understands what he needs to do. This gives us an image of Gintoki's psyche and how he will choose to respond to it.

Fourth, the whole theme of the movie is about moving on and letting go of the past. Gintoki in this movie is shown to be his most emotionally vulnerable in the entire series, which is one of my favorite aspects of this movie. He acknowledges the fact that he has to defeat Utsuro, his past if he ever wants to face Shinpachi and Kagura with a straight face ever again. The opening of their infiltration of the tower showcases us Gintoki's acceptance of Shoyo's death and his desire for his friends. This is in stark contrast to Takasugi whereas he is incapable of ever letting go of the past wanting to burn every bridge he made to the others in Kihetai, maybe out of guilt, out of responsibility or a mix of both who knows. He is the embodiment of someone attached to the past Gintoki accepting Takasugi's death is thematically correct as this is Gintoki accepting the pains of his past and by his will and Takasugi's encouragement, will live on.

Fifth, Gintoki still thinks about his death and everything that happened after the fact. A quote from Shinpachi, "But when I saw Gin's slightly sad smile, I started to fully realise the significance of the things we'd regained and the things we'd lost." We could also see it from Gintoki often seemingly melancholic. He is not showcasing any grave signs of depression but he is still saddened by it. Being able to joke around and goof does not mean he was not affected, but at the same time it does not mean he was not thankful for a lot of things. In Gintoki's eyes, Shoyo and Takasugi's deaths were well delivered, unlike how Shoyo died before. It gives him grief but it is not traumatic nor life breaking as he was able to give those two one final somewhat proper send offs. And in addition to that, he knows that their wills, their souls will never die as long as his silver soul remembers them. One last quote from Utsuro that also drives home what this movie tells about the idea of humanity, "Humans are hollow being. But because they know that, they take root in the hearts of others, never fading, even after death, continue to live forever, is it?"


I know Gintama the Final is not that perfect and flawed in a handful of regards but I view those as miniscule and it delivers so hard on the main story and properly concludes the story, further recontextualizing my view of the series is what makes this a masterpiece to me. (Though I really will not call this a "Masterpiece of a movie" since this is basically just the third act of a the final Gintama arc, removing the expositions and inciting incident making this movie hard to be judged as a movie.) I can understand not liking this movie but, as far as I can tell from your post, you clearly did not fully understand the movie. Also you can't say the movie did a poor job explaining it cause come on, they were super on the nose with it.

Jay_Burson-510 said:
I mean it was still heartbreaking either way even if Gintoki was not the one who actively killed Takasugi.


Also I think you meant the Silver Soul Arc in your last statement. I think I heard others just call the episodes after episode 8 of Kouhan-sen to be "After Silver Soul Arc" even technically it is still a part of the Silver Soul Arc. Regardless, you are still kinda wrong about calling it the narrative finale since Utsuro was still alive, the Odd Jobs was still split apart, Takasugi's character arc wasn't done yet, and the status quo was not yet still fully realized without Gintoki. It isn't comparable to how Naruto ended where the Naruto vs Sasuke fight was the narrative finale and everything after that is the epilogue because the end of the SS arc still leaves a bit of wiggle room to further develop some key details in the After SS arc while the last naruto movie was just about how Naruto is going forward with his life.

RandomPerson9348 said:

You are not wrong, but I think my idea of what I meant was not brought across properly.

Rakuyou Decisive Battle is indeed the narratively complete finale of Gintama. You must remember that Utsuro is a last minute addition compared to the rest of the cast. All major character and story arcs which were built from episode 1 actually merge and find an ending in Rakuyou Decisive Battle. Everything after that is Sorachi ironing out any remaining wrinkles in the story and giving it a smoother landing.

I guess a simpler way to see it is if you have seen Breaking Bad. Rakuyou is the Ozymandias of Gintama. SSA is Granite State and Felina.

All character arcs and problems being sorted out isn't the end of a story. A story ends when everything it has been building up to, finds a conclusion, even if it is rocky. And this can be 150 pages before the end of a book. The rest of it will still be the "Epilogue" of the story, in a sense. It's the same with Gintama. The 300 episodes' main plot has always been about the conflict between Gintoki and Takasugi, which ends in RDB.

Just like you said in your main reply, the Finale is about moving on. So if the finale is about moving on, then SSA is about the universe giving our heroes a chance to do so. After everything has ended, their teacher returns to allow Gintoki and Takasugi to finally find a way to have peace in their lives. It is, as I said, the victory lap.

I can't really think of a way to simplify what I mean. I hope you can understand now that I've tried to.

Lucifrost said:
Nothing was handled well in this movie.

Jay_Burson-510 said:

Ah. I see what you mean. Sorry for misunderstanding it. Still kinda leaves a bad taste for my mouth since Rakuyou is the worst season of Gintama for me (still pretty high though regardless in score). I mean Oboro felt like a discarded rag by the end and really didn't feel like he was given that great of a send off. Honestly felt like the same shit that's happening right now with Levi.

RandomPerson9348 said:

I also think that Rakuyou was weak, which is why SSA is necessary. But at the same time, SSA is also very weak in its first half.

I did not like how the stakes were heightened to the Earth being destroyed. It moved away from the slightly serious tonal shift after Shogun Assassination, and seemed a bit comical in that it became a parody of itself for a while. I don't think Gintama should be about the world ending.

I like the parts after the time skip though. The second half course corrects the series back to its smaller and personal routes. That was very much needed, and thank god Final delivers.

RandomPerson9348 said:

I also think that Rakuyou was weak, which is why SSA is necessary. But at the same time, SSA is also very weak in its first half.

I did not like how the stakes were heightened to the Earth being destroyed. It moved away from the slightly serious tonal shift after Shogun Assassination, and seemed a bit comical in that it became a parody of itself for a while. I don't think Gintama should be about the world ending.

I like the parts after the time skip though. The second half course corrects the series back to its smaller and personal routes. That was very much needed, and thank god Final delivers.

Sanjay63773 said:


I will be honest, I didn't like Sliver soul arc as a whole including the movie. They really destroyed what made Gintama so memorable in the first place. It's his ability to shift the tone from serious to comedy without feeling too jarring which many shonen struggle to nail perfectly. This aspect was completely thrown out of the window in the sliver soul arc, hence, it becomes its biggest issue.

Sanjay63773 said:


I will be honest, I didn't like Sliver soul arc as a whole including the movie. They really destroyed what made Gintama so memorable in the first place. It's his ability to shift the tone from serious to comedy without feeling too jarring which many shonen struggle to nail perfectly. This aspect was completely thrown out of the window in the sliver soul arc, hence, it becomes its biggest issue.

Jay_Burson-510 said:

Gotta admit though. Episode 2 of SSA part 1 is funny as shit, literally.

The main crime I have with part 1 is the Hata and Elizabeth episode. It was just weird. Probably the worst in the series in fact. I didn't really mind the world ending plot since it felt looney enough to fit the Gintama world and the comedy didn't really bother me, at least until the midpoint of the season. The weakest part for me is that halfway through the pacing dies down a bit, which like you said was properly fixed in part 2. The first three episodes where great then after the Shinsengumi's introduction, it became a bit inconsistent in quality in terms of pacing and comedic timing. Not to mention the retconning of Hedoro

RandomPerson9348 said:

My problem isn't really the comedy. I still love every second of it with a bias.

It honestly is just the higher stakes. Gintama's serious arcs are so powerful because the comedy and slice of life is so good. It honestly feels like someone is attacking your family when something bad happens to a character we know.

Raising the stakes to the world ending just made it go the way of a generic shounen, which I think Sorachi understood quite quickly, given how short the SS Arc is in comparison to the other big ones. And then he made the decision of having a time skip and reverting to smaller stakes.