| Kinda bored so here's something to lose some brain cells. Quite a long time ago, I had a very civil discussion with a huge Madoka fan and at one point, this happened; Me:- "Madoka is certainly a dark show and is might also be a good subversion on general magical girl tropes (I haven't watched any magical girl Anime btw, just talking about how genre is generally viewed). But the ending kinda felt like an asspull. Madoka fan:- "I understand where you are coming from but there's actually a Buddhist philosophy incorporated in the ending... (Proceeds to back up their point talking about symbolism and how it retells a certain Buddhist story of Nirvana). Me, after reading all that:- "Woah! That's pretty cool. But I'm still not very convinced or, should I say it still looks like an asspull". Now thinking back, I'm kinda wondering how this similar points are also made in discussions about other acclaimed titles like "NGE & Death Note having heavy Christian symbolism" and few others times where people back up a show's writing quality with the amount of religious references/symbolisms it uses and I always think; does it really matter? Or is it not possible to grasp the underlying theme without any of that knowledge? My question is simple; Does an Anime/Manga that retells or uses a certain religious/spiritual story makes it a well written? |
R_2_RSep 26, 2022 11:28 PM
| simply having those elements doesn't mean that the story is well written, that has to come from the skill of the creator in expressing those ideas in regards to your madoka talk, the fan simply didn't know how to explain and chose to regurgitate something that didn't even matter in that specific talk. If I had to respond to your question I think that it's true that her wish came outta nowhere but what could have been done to fix the problems? we have some forshadowing seeing how madoka is a girl willing to sacrifice herself for the greater good and that wish was good enough, keep in mind that it didn't fix the universe dying, in the end there are wraiths and the magical girls still have to hunt them but at least they don't transform into witches. It can't be an asspull because the story was about magical girls and magic is almost infinite, a wish like that was good writing imo, like I said, the story has the MAGIC element so of course it'll look that big of an even, it's not like it was a realistic anime and some dude jumps 10 meters when in-universe he couldn't do it, just an example. I won't bother to talk about eva, it's probably the same thing, you just encountered some fans that are very simple minded |
CatalanoSep 27, 2022 2:27 AM
    |
| If it's interwoven, it can enhance a story, but if it's in knots, and bunches, it can be glaring. No story is well-written from symbolism. I agree with you on the Madoka ending, because it didn't foreshadow the right things. 'She's powerful, wow, she has lots of qi, or whatever, she's got some wacky powers' doesn't come close to 'she will literally become a god.' Would've been better (in my overwhelmingly, massively, greatly humble opinion) if a magical girl wished to end world hunger, or stop wars, or something in the same ball-park, and it failed. Kyubert may've mentioned it's not possible for something that world-changing, I haven't watched the show in 4 years, but it failing seems like more solid foreshadowing, if that was the case. Idk, maybe I was low IQ, high EQ, low T, high E, and failed to miss some obvious 'she will become a god' foreshadowing at 12:53 in episode 7. Obviously, religious symbolism can add a touch of grandness to a story, but if it's out of nowhere (like Madoka), or idrk (like Evangan), then it doesn't enhance anything. If Lillith was called 'Massive Woman With Vagina Forehead Eye' in Spanish, and the Third Impact was called the Third 'People Will Die' Event in Afrikaans, I wouldn't really care. |
| It won't grant a well-written story though. Just because "that" anime uses weird foreign word like from ancient roman or something, it doesn't guarantee a well-written story. |
 This's my profile This's my anime list This's my reviews 🌸Would you be my friend?. I'd love to have an online friend.🌸 |
| Not really. It's easy to use symbolism or make random references, to problem is fitting them naturally into a story. Another point is that the author may not even be aware of the deep meaning of the symbols they're using. I mean, it's possible to have a much deeper reading of a text than the author intended. Do we really know that the Madoka's creator was inspired by that particular point of Buddhism? Maybe the aesthetic was cool and the viewer is projecting stuff (like the crosses in Eva that mean nothing but fans over analyzed). Or maybe he was so involved with that religion, or it's just too common knowledge that it came out naturally without much thought - ideology - (similar to how we see characters coming back from apparent dead as an awesome power move, not considering any resemblance to Jesus or without having a Christian subtext). About Madoka's ending. I don't know about that Buddhism thing that fan told you. It's a interesting take, but IMO it seems pretty reasonable to become a God when you ask someone with endless power to have you defeat every enemy of the world in the past, present and future, no matter how strong they were/are/will be. Plus the magical context of their powers. And given all that Madoka went through with her friends and her selfless personality, her asking for something so wacky as this without thinking about the implications also seems in character. |
| Not really. It's all about the execution of those elements and how their presence alongside other ones manage to result in an engaging and interesting experience throughout. Just having the ingredients for something that could be really interesting and good, doesn't mean that the final product turns out that way when put together. |
| Well, unless you're one of the Sakuga resource writers who for some reason value the show more for the expensive animation than for the story or character development. Building blocks don't make your show a good one. What makes it good is how strong and beautiful a house you build from them. |
 |
| The only thing that can grant make a show well written is if it has good writing. No more no less. Symbolism is only good as long as the way it is used is good. Madoka's ending being based on buddhism or whatever doesn't change the fact that eternal return is among the laziest endings possible for a story. |
 |
| Does [X] automatically grants a story or title as well-written? No. |
| Symbolism and references are meant to be supplementary to a narrative that's already fundamentally sound and well-written by itself, regardless of how simple or complex it is at the core. They're NOT meant to be something that is the main or sole dictation of a series being good or not. Unfortunately, a good number of shows, anime and non-anime, tend to fall victim to that. Symbolism, references, and deep idealism/philosophy will mean nothing, at least in my eyes, if the story fails fundamentally. |
 |
| No, symbolism is just an add-on to the already existing story. |
| Who are you and why do you show your hostility towards a complete stranger whom you've not once spoken with before. Are you seriously asking to get blocked? Well, if that's what your intent is; to tempt me into throwing hands with someone as lowly and insignificant as you, then i may grant your wish provided you articulate yourself a bit better when trying to spite a person of my wavelength. |
R_2_R said: I say yes (in most cases), but only because a story ambitious enough to include these references in an actually noticeable and recognizable way are typically rigorous and actually goo in other ways. So maybe not directly, but there's definitely a confounded facto that makes this often the case.Kinda bored so here's something to lose some brain cells. Quite a long time ago, I had a very civil discussion with a huge Madoka fan and at one point, this happened; Me:- "Madoka is certainly a dark show and is might also be a good subversion on general magical girl tropes (I haven't watched any magical girl Anime btw, just talking about how genre is generally viewed). But the ending kinda felt like an asspull. Madoka fan:- "I understand where you are coming from but there's actually a Buddhist philosophy incorporated in the ending... (Proceeds to back up their point talking about symbolism and how it retells a certain Buddhist story of Nirvana). Me, after reading all that:- "Woah! That's pretty cool. But I'm still not very convinced or, should I say it still looks like an asspull". Now thinking back, I'm kinda wondering how this similar points are also made in discussions about other acclaimed titles like "NGE & Death Note having heavy Christian symbolism" and few others times where people back up a show's writing quality with the amount of religious references/symbolisms it uses and I always think; does it really matter? Or is it not possible to grasp the underlying theme without any of that knowledge? My question is simple; Does an Anime/Manga that retells or uses a certain religious/spiritual story makes it a well written? |
Please sign up for MangAlert! It's a little project I made that I'd really like to see the light of day and some users. MangAlert! (please sign up!) GitHub Repo (please star!) |
| It's kind of funny reading your original post being about Madoka Magica's religious symbolism and then saying that Christian symbolism applies to specifically other anime. Madoka Magica is deeply immersed in Christian symbology and themes, and it significantly informs the plot. To your specific question. No, not really. Such symbolism has no real value in and of itself, but only insofar as it bolsters and helps elucidate the themes of the work to those who recognize the symbols. It's also important that the story be accessible to everybody, regardless of that symbolic content. So, the story shouldn't get 'much worse' for people who don't 'get' the references. Edited to put all the images in a spoiler tag. |
ScionOfCyanSep 29, 2022 12:56 AM
 |
| In fact, given what I have heard about the "Christian symbolism" in NGE (which I have not watched), it's all kind of just thrown in there at random, and doesn't inform the work at large. Which would mean that Madoka Magica is miles more 'Christian' than NGE is or ever will be. But I might be wrong about NGE, I haven't watched it after all. After I watch it I might have a different opinion. |
|
| >Does spiritual symbolism and/or references automatically grants a story or title as well-written? No, if it's meaningless or solely for the purpose of aesthetic looking then it doesn't grant one to be well-written. |
 |
| Just because one piece have nika from greek mythology doesn't mean it's good, simple as that. |
| . |
My take on this aspect of Sayaka is a little odd and very involved so it will definitely take a full essay to build up the structure that underpins all my thoughts. |
ScionOfCyanSep 29, 2022 1:28 PM
|
| depends on how literate the viewer is. the average viewer now just don't know how to read book and interpret details. this comes from both sides, the author and the audience. so no, symbolism and references are good if they are used in such a way to propel the story, not the try to add meat to a plot. on the other hand, don't expect the average person to appreciate a museum. art can be misunderstood. |
 Maybe watching, maybe reading, probably living |
| @JustOscar the key word in the context of Madoka Magica and too good to be true is ‘redemption’ Stories are representational and what Madoka Magica’s ending primarily represents is the religious person’s optimism in the possibility of and successful mechanisms for redemption. That’s why the oboe solo is played 2 times. Once at the end, and once in foreshadowing when Madoka tells mom she knows Sayaka is doing the wrong thing but wants to find out how to save her anyhow. The most prominent ‘anti-Christian pseudo-religions’ nowadays have no such mechanism: violate the creed, and that’s it, you’re done, no forgiveness will be granted to you for the rest of your life (consider being ‘cancelled’). |
ScionOfCyanSep 30, 2022 9:07 AM
|
I'm already here. There are no more brain cells to lose. |
I may make you feel but I can't make you think.  |
R_2_R said: My question is simple; Does an Anime/Manga that retells or uses a certain religious/spiritual story makes it a well written? Not always, and I dare to say: in most of cases it doesn't make it either well written or deeper than usual anime story. In many cases it's used as a convenient device to give simple and naive story sort of "elitistic element", so something that pseudointellectual anime fans might use to show how "superior" they are towards "common anime watchers". Same goes with few other themes, like military theme in example. Don't get me wrong: well written religious, spiritual, militaristic, philosophical etc. etc. story might be great and visibly better than regular anime or manga. However it doesn't mean that such well written stories dominate in the world of anime and manga. |
| No why would it. Imagery, references and symbolism are devoid of meaning unless they are given that within context. |
KumiveneellaSep 30, 2022 10:10 PM
Recynon said: This is an interesting way of putting it and I think potentially has a lot of truth to it.Well let me put it this way: maybe the people supposedly without faith would never believe in the "too bad to be true" scenario that Madoka Magica sets up in the first place. You can say that the entire premise is kind of like a reverse miracle, or a negative miracle to begin with. So negating that setup with another all-encompassing, abrupt solution just doesn't do it for me. At the risk of starting a religious debate... it's kind of like how you'd first have to buy in that God condemns everyone to death (at best, or Hell depending on your denomination) as a default state. Personally I’m very receptive to and often very much enjoy stories that plunge characters in dark places. It rather goes hand in hand with caring deeply about the possibility of redemption that one would also be particularly critical or focused on one’s own ‘sins’ (see the Biblical notion of original sin). Whereas more ‘secular’ views are often more optimistic about fundamental human nature (Locke & Hobbes). That self-flagellating albino Dan Brown creates in his book The Da Vinci Code comes to mind. That’s kind of how I imagine non-Christians think about Christians who take the ideas of fire and brimstone seriously. Everything you said fits perfectly under that model. |
|
| Madoka is this story with tons of elements that ‘go down more smoothly’ if you grew up in a traditional religious matrix. One great example is the way Sayaka responds when she learns the truth of the Soul Gems. Somebody upthread (I think it was Recynon actually) mentioned how with their upbringing Sayaka’s response makes no sense to them. And I can see how somebody could think that. But with my more traditional upbringing and the ideas about the nature of souls, their instantiation into the body, and what souls represent in my culture Sayaka’s response makes 100% sense. And when I saw Recynon’s initial comment I thought about trying to explain that and realized I probably couldn’t. It’s like, just this big cultural disconnect in how one sees the world. For both of us it’s ‘obvious.’ So for Recynon Sayaka is an extremely poorly written character, and for me I feel Sayaka is literally the best-written character I have seen in anime. Is there a way to ‘bridge that gap?’ If there is, I don’t know what it would be. |
|
ScionOfCyan said: My take on this aspect of Sayaka is a little odd and very involved so it will definitely take a full essay to build up the structure that underpins all my thoughts. Ig, the sci-fi element was there to engage viewers who're not familiar with all the religious elements, because it wasn't until it kicked in at 9th or so episode, that I actually got interested to proceed any further. Until then, I only thought I'm just watching a dark show with magical girls in it and I haven't caught any of these religious symbols you've been pointing out because I'm not familiar with any of it. And to people who pointed it about, yeah, it's not really a happy ending. I just blurted it out because I kinda remember coming out of the show with some positive feeling (It's been more than a year I've watched this and the movie, so I kinda forgot many details about the show). |
R_2_R said: Yeah that makes sense. It’s really interesting to me how people can ‘see’ two different things when it’s the same thing. Consciousness is crazy ScionOfCyan said: My take on this aspect of Sayaka is a little odd and very involved so it will definitely take a full essay to build up the structure that underpins all my thoughts. Ig, the sci-fi element was there to engage viewers who're not familiar with all the religious elements, because it wasn't until it kicked in at 9th or so episode, that I actually got interested to proceed any further. Until then, I only thought I'm just watching a dark show with magical girls in it and I haven't caught any of these religious symbols you've been pointing out because I'm not familiar with any of it. And to people who pointed it about, yeah, it's not really a happy ending. I just blurted it out because I kinda remember coming out of the show with some positive feeling (It's been more than a year I've watched this and the movie, so I kinda forgot many details about the show). |
|
| The answer is a no, but it is an addition. it's the bonus, not the reward. the desert, not the main course. In madoka's case there are a lot of other reasons why it is well written which would take WAY too long to fully explain, so I will just say this... the story of madoka hasn't even ended yet. rebellion is a direct sequel and there is a movie coming that takes place after it. you say yourself that the ending makes sense in theory, so calling it an asspull is objectively wrong, now that said, I do see why it wouldn't be satisfying. but them again, it's not really the ending, it could have been, but it's not. |
| Also available at: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK8spdL1M_J-z0vO2C7jPLw Why You Should Watch Akudama Drive: https://youtu.be/Yw0r52wRjgA An AMV I that I spend way too much time on: A Love Letter To Anime「AMV」: https://youtu.be/YQyqxFM2m9Q My referral code to a website/app that gives you free money (a few cents a day) by using a few megabytes of your internet for file sharing. We both get a bonus if you use my link: https://r.honeygain.me/ARSHIA7942 |
| "Does an Anime/Manga that retells or uses a certain religious/spiritual story makes it a well written?" Not necessarily. It has to do sth with it like maybe through foreshadowing by showing them those symbols/references HIDING the meaning behind which'll only make sense after figuring out what they are and/or what they mean. If, they show the symbols and has no meaning whatsoever no matter how much you try to make sense then there's nothing well written about it. It just adds to the show's style but not the writing. |
| Considering everyone gave a pretty similar answer, "It doesn't matter if it has no depth/meaning to it". How exactly can you tell if a particular symbolism doesn't have a meaning and on what basis (any examples, if you can add)? |
| No, it just depends how it’s done. If it’s done well it’s one way to add extra layers to a story but if poorly done it actually subtracts from it by lacking originality. |
| @Recynon it doesn’t really matter if one has no exposure or has copious exposure and chooses to reject the worldview. It all redounds to the same thing. One’s worldview and beliefs have a significant impact on how they interpret anything they perceive. However, I did make assumptions based on the fact that it didn’t sound to me like you understand these ideas well. Since my implicit condescension in that regard led you to such a long response, I apologize for my forwardness. I tend to be blunt on the internet. I could write essays and essays on minutiae of Sayaka’s character, and probably eventually will, in the future. I can ping you when I finish them, if you like. Unfortunately I don’t feel driven to continue a discussion on the points you’ve raised in this thread at this point in time. I’m sorry if that’s disappointing. |
|
JustOscar said: ScionOfCyan said: Madoka is this story with tons of elements that ‘go down more smoothly’ if you grew up in a traditional religious matrix. One great example is the way Sayaka responds when she learns the truth of the Soul Gems. Somebody upthread (I think it was Recynon actually) mentioned how with their upbringing Sayaka’s response makes no sense to them. And I can see how somebody could think that. But with my more traditional upbringing and the ideas about the nature of souls, their instantiation into the body, and what souls represent in my culture Sayaka’s response makes 100% sense. And when I saw Recynon’s initial comment I thought about trying to explain that and realized I probably couldn’t. It’s like, just this big cultural disconnect in how one sees the world. For both of us it’s ‘obvious.’ So for Recynon Sayaka is an extremely poorly written character, and for me I feel Sayaka is literally the best-written character I have seen in anime. Is there a way to ‘bridge that gap?’ If there is, I don’t know what it would be. Yes, this is exactly it. I may have poisoned the well by saying it was necessarily 'religious' or 'Christian' in nature. I think this sense of a 'self' that is somehow independent of the body in some fundamental way tends to be the default way humans process the world across history. And this rationalist or Enlightenment way of thinking which makes people feel confused about Sayaka's behavior is a relatively recent phenomenon. Or perhaps, it has appeared time and again throughout history and cultures which have that way of thinking were outcompeted by cultures that don't. I checked Urobuchi's age and he's almost 50 now. Certain cultural aspects have changed dramatically in a way that affects how millenials and younger see the world, but Urobuchi appears to (at least in this instance) assume 'the old view' as basically an axiom of how everybody sees the world. And I see the world that way, just as he does. |
|
| Evangelion basically just thrown in Christian symbolism solely because they sound cool. So no. |
 |
ScionOfCyan said: Yes, this is exactly it. I may have poisoned the well by saying it was necessarily 'religious' or 'Christian' in nature. I think this sense of a 'self' that is somehow independent of the body in some fundamental way tends to be the default way humans process the world across history. And this rationalist or Enlightenment way of thinking which makes people feel confused about Sayaka's behavior is a relatively recent phenomenon. Or perhaps, it has appeared time and again throughout history and cultures which have that way of thinking were outcompeted by cultures that don't. I checked Urobuchi's age and he's almost 50 now. Certain cultural aspects have changed dramatically in a way that affects how millenials and younger see the world, but Urobuchi appears to (at least in this instance) assume 'the old view' as basically an axiom of how everybody sees the world. And I see the world that way, just as he does. |
ScionOfCyanOct 1, 2022 1:45 PM
|
Recynon said: @ScionOfCyan Sure, and if you want, you can continue the discussion in my profile comments. Okay, I'll keep you in mind to ping on this in the future. A lot of the analytical thought I have done on aspects of this story but haven't put into words yet will relate to some of these ideas mentioned. I'd prefer to put in the work to make those thoughts well-written and compact. If I stream of consciousness it out right now I won't be satisfied that I presented the picture well. |
|
| Absolutely not. In fact, in my opinion, it seems like the person you was trying too hard to read between the lines of Madoka for a symbol that does not meaningfully exist, or at best, shows no signs of having been put there intentionally by the writers to make any sort of point. I also find it really funny that you bring up the symbolism in NGE because the authors have outright stated that they had put the Christian symbolism there to make it look cool and nothing more. In fact, I think they even went as far as to say that had they known how popular NGE would've gotten, they would've thought twice about including it. |
ParataxicalisOct 1, 2022 3:58 PM
More topics from this board
Poll: » Bare feet or pantyhoses?Absurdo_N - 9 hours ago |
21 |
by Ex-Aid
»»
3 minutes ago |
|
» Credit cards companies are forcing the Hentai industryDije - 11 hours ago |
45 |
by traed
»»
4 minutes ago |
|
» Early-mid 2000s anime – what are your thoughts?Haneken2086 - 5 hours ago |
5 |
by Ex-Aid
»»
4 minutes ago |
|
» Things you are jealous of in animeIpreferEcchi - Apr 20 |
43 |
by Jutrio
»»
11 minutes ago |
|
Poll: » Interest and hobbies change with timenishant0 - 9 hours ago |
31 |
by Jutrio
»»
13 minutes ago |