| 10/10 still my favorite till this day, it's kinda sad that there's barely any animes like monster |
| A very flawed show in which you need to overuse the suspension of disbelief a lot of times more than you should for a crime/psychological/drama anime, some episodes were almost like fillers, the Johan "supernatural" side wasnt compatible with the setting of the anime... Only Lunge felt like an admirable character. It was a very dissapointing show for me. |
| I haven't watched it. But I'm gonna put it on my ptw just because you guys talk so often about it |
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| One of the absolute best. Truly a one-of-a-kind masterpiece of the medium. |
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| I enjoyed the show, however I've also described the show as being as incredibly boring as it is intriguing. There are so many episodes of just one off characters just sitting there and talking and talking and talking. The characters are telling stories that reflect on the themes of the show and its all necessary, it's just not always easy to sit through. On the plus side, there is an interesting cat&mouse going on between tenma and yohan, and they we really do get to explore the themes of the show in a thought provoking way. It's the kind of show that gets better the more you think about it imo where at lot of other anime that I watch are really meant to be just taken at face value (most shonen series) |
| https://combosmooth.itch.io/ - I make free-to-play browser games for PC and I sell pixel art animation here |
| Monster is easily one of the best anime ever made. End of story. |
 This glorious signature image was created by @Mayumi! I am the Arbiter of Absolute Truth, and here is my wisdom: "Anime was always influenced by the West. This is not news. Shoujo is the superior genre primarily aimed at young people. Harem/isekai are lazy genres that refuse any meaningful innovation. There is no 'Golden Age.' There will always be top-shelf anime. You should be watching Carole & Tuesday." |
| I loved this Anime so much. It had the right pacing for me and the Story and Characters were awesome |
| Honestly, I don't remember the anime since I saw it when I was 12 or something, so I just rated it the same as the manga (which I read some years ago). lol It's been a favorite anime/manga ever since. It's hard to find other stories with this sort of intricate but well planned plot that (for me at least) is not super pretentious. Deathko said: Found it tedious. Was mostly plagued by Urasawa's overused narrative gimmicks. That and you hated Tenma? I ask because I remember you saying that in the trolley problem thread. It was my first experience with Urasawa's works, so that probably couldn't have bothered me. But what do you mean by that? I've seen someone say before that Johann is a less interesting character than the narrative sells him as, and I can agree with that. I still love what his presence represents for the development of the story, though. |
Sheklon said: Honestly, I don't remember the anime since I saw it when I was 12 or something, so I just rated it the same as the manga (which I read some years ago). lol It's been a favorite anime/manga ever since. It's hard to find other stories with this sort of intricate but well planned plot that (for me at least) is not super pretentious. Deathko said: Found it tedious. Was mostly plagued by Urasawa's overused narrative gimmicks. That and you hated Tenma? I ask because I remember you saying that in the trolley problem thread. It was my first experience with Urasawa's works, so that probably couldn't have bothered me. But what do you mean by that? I've seen someone say before that Johann is a less interesting character than the narrative sells him as, and I can agree with that. I still love what his presence represents for the development of the story, though. I think Tenma as a character gets a lot of development for 60+ eps, and just sits on his thumbs undoing it all in the last eps. That's part of my problem with Monster. If your MC is going to learn nothing from his adventure, maybe the adventure shouldn't be 64 eps long. My other problem with Monster is about the way Urasawa writes in itself, and there I have really nothing good to say. I loved Pluto. I think Urasawa can lay some pretty interesting and mature themes on top of his stories... I also think he's a terrible story teller. I know, I have Pluto in favs, but you'll see what I mean soon, and we'll even have the chance to talk about Johan. Urasawa has two story-telling gimmicks at his disposal, and he's totally unable to write an action scene. Lets take his first gimmick. How many gunshots in Monster? And how many gunshots happening ONSCREEN? Exactly, close to zero. Urasawa blesses us with an offscreen "suspense" gunshot every two chapters, it's just beyond ridiculous at this point. No, Tenma isn't going to get shot between ep 21 and 22 of your 64 eps long show, just stop with this Urasawa. He does the same thing in Pluto, where every important fight happens offscreen, and you're just told who tf won at the end. Like, c'mon, something about "show, don't tell'... His second gimmick relates to Johan. And unlike many people here, I do not consider Johan to be on par with Griffith, or a good villain. I don't even think he's a mediocre villain. He's quite probably one of the very worst literary villain I put my eyes on. ANd I'm sure you can already feel where I'm going with this. Remember "show, don't tell"? Well, Johan is entirely characterized by characters telling us what he is, not by Urasawa showing us. You'll get the same boring scene of random passerbys stuttering his name, eyes wide open in fear. Again. And again. And again. But what's the nastiest shit Johan does on screen? Play with kids? Look slightly challenged with his habit to smile 24/7? How is he such a praised character, it's beyond me. Legit any bad guy who talks in DBZ is a better antagonist than Johan, as far as I'm concerned. So here you have it, Urasawa summed up in three sentences. The dude really needs to either 1/ learn a third story telling gimmick or 2/ stop writing 10+ volumes manga. Pluto was nice. it was way too short for me to get extra annoyed at the awful story telling. |
DeathkoAug 9, 2022 4:39 AM
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| Currently watching, and it's amazing. The show is well-directed and has a detailed story with well-written characters. It's also not scared to kill off characters when needed, but also doesn't do it excessively. It ties different plot points and brings them back together. Might I remind you, I haven't even finished the show yet. But I must say, the pacing is a bit slow for my taste, so that deducts some points. 8/10 |
| Gintoki and Sugita's birthdays are 1 day apart. |
Deathko said: wdym "he learns nothing from his adventure"?I think Tenma has a character gets a lot of development for 60+ eps, and just sits on his thumbs undoing it all in the last eps. That's part of my problem with Monster. If your MC is going to learn nothing from his adventure Deathko said: well i can agree that the gunshot gimmick is one of the worst thing in his storytelling but how does all this gets it to mere 6/10?My other problem with Monster is about the way Urasawa writes in itself, and there I have really nothing good to say. I loved Pluto. I think Urasawa can lay some pretty interesting and mature themes on top of his stories... I also think he's a terrible story teller. I know, I have Pluto in favs, but you'll see what I mean soon, and we'll even have the chance to talk about Johan. Urasawa has two story-telling gimmicks at his disposal, and he's totally unable to write an action scene. Lets take his first gimmick. How many gunshots in Monster? And how many gunshots happening ONSCREEN? Exactly, close to zero. Urasawa blesses us with an offscreen "suspense" gunshot every two chapters, it's just beyond ridiculous at this point. No, Tenma isn't going to get shot between ep 21 and 22 of your 64 eps long show, just stop with this Urasawa. He does the same thing in Pluto, where every important fight happens offscreen, and you're just told who tf won at the end. Like, c'mon, something about "show, don't tell'... Deathko said: "what IS told" doesn't necessarily beget "what MUST be told".His second gimmick relates to Johan. And unlike many people here, I do not consider Johan to be on par with Griffith, or a good villain. I don't even think he's a mediocre villain. He's quite probably one of the very worst literary villain I put my eyes on. ANd I'm sure you can already feel where I'm going with this. Remember "show, don't tell"? Well, Johan is entirely characterized by characters telling us what he is, not by Urasawa showing us. |
TRC_Randy said: Well, what did he learn in these 64 eps? What changed about him? Isn't he the exact same person he was in ep1, at the end, when everything is said and done? And what's in there for us to relate to? I really don't see anything in that anime besides Trolley Problem: The Animation, since Sheklon mentionned it. Dude unknowingly pulls a lever that kills tons of innocents, then spends 60+ eps telling himself he'll def pull that lever the other way. I couldn't find any way to care, and considering the content of some of those eps, and how they're completely irrelevant to the story Urasawa is trying to tell... I was really bored, tbh.Deathko said: wdym "he learns nothing from his adventure"?I think Tenma has a character gets a lot of development for 60+ eps, and just sits on his thumbs undoing it all in the last eps. That's part of my problem with Monster. If your MC is going to learn nothing from his adventure Deathko said: well i can agree that the gunshot gimmick is one of the worst thing in his storytelling but how does all this gets it to mere 6/10?My other problem with Monster is about the way Urasawa writes in itself, and there I have really nothing good to say. I loved Pluto. I think Urasawa can lay some pretty interesting and mature themes on top of his stories... I also think he's a terrible story teller. I know, I have Pluto in favs, but you'll see what I mean soon, and we'll even have the chance to talk about Johan. Urasawa has two story-telling gimmicks at his disposal, and he's totally unable to write an action scene. Lets take his first gimmick. How many gunshots in Monster? And how many gunshots happening ONSCREEN? Exactly, close to zero. Urasawa blesses us with an offscreen "suspense" gunshot every two chapters, it's just beyond ridiculous at this point. No, Tenma isn't going to get shot between ep 21 and 22 of your 64 eps long show, just stop with this Urasawa. He does the same thing in Pluto, where every important fight happens offscreen, and you're just told who tf won at the end. Like, c'mon, something about "show, don't tell'... Deathko said: "what IS told" doesn't necessarily beget "what MUST be told".His second gimmick relates to Johan. And unlike many people here, I do not consider Johan to be on par with Griffith, or a good villain. I don't even think he's a mediocre villain. He's quite probably one of the very worst literary villain I put my eyes on. ANd I'm sure you can already feel where I'm going with this. Remember "show, don't tell"? Well, Johan is entirely characterized by characters telling us what he is, not by Urasawa showing us. The whole midsection (and I mean, a solid chunck of 40+ eps) was just people going from A to B, with no relevance to anything. Maybe Urasawa was trying to say something about how evil is a conscious choice people make and not an heritage of their environment, but when the (multiples, and repeated) flashbacks explaining wtf happened started rolling, I was on autopilot since a while. To sum it up, there's not a single thing I cared for in this show, except that friendly german dude, I remember him being quite a good and relatable character. 6 is generous, I really don't think there was anything "fine" about the way that story is told, it's a dumpster fire as far as I'm concerned |
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| I haven't watched the Monster, hope that I like it because I am a doctor too! |
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Deathko said: why MUST he change tho?Well, what did he learn in these 64 eps? What changed about him? Isn't he the exact same person he was in ep1, at the end, when everything is said and done? Really, i don't like responding to a question with a question but this question of yours is really one that rises another one. Deathko said: to the fact that his belief is seriously tested by Johan?And what's in there for us to relate to? Deathko said: bruh, who's this "dude"? Wdym he "unknowingly pulls a lever that kills tons of innocents"?I really don't see anything in that anime besides Trolley Problem: The Animation, since Sheklon mentionned it. Dude unknowingly pulls a lever that kills tons of innocents Deathko said: "enjoyment" is simply PART of anime which i understand your painful experience but it's still not enough to justify 6/10. I've seen TONS of anime that bored me yet they still got 7/10 or above.then spends 60+ eps telling himself he'll def pull that lever the other way. I couldn't find any way to care, and considering the content of some of those eps, and how they're completely irrelevant to the story Urasawa is trying to tell... I was really bored, tbh. Deathko said: like which characters and where are they aimlessly going to and fro?The whole midsection (and I mean, a solid chunck of 40+ eps) was just people going from A to B, with no relevance to anything. Deathko said: Monster is mainly about human nature; the good (human) side and the bad (Monster) side and the worst side of a Monster is one that doesn't value human lives which is what Johan's character (seemingly) embodies and how Tenma would begin falling into the same hole if he, a doctor who saves lives starts pulling trigger, paradoxically taking lives instead.Maybe Urasawa was trying to say something about how evil is a conscious choice people make and not an heritage of their environment, but when the (multiples, and repeated) flashbacks explaining wtf happened started rolling, I was on autopilot since a while. The constant flashbacks were quite irritating tho ngl. |
| It's pretty good. But it doesn't have enough thematic or aesthetic interest to be great. It takes the lazy answer of 'realism' far too often. |
| Currently, over two years on, it remains sitting far and away as the series I got furthest into before dropping (somewhere around the mid-20s episode mark). And my primary qualms are not about slow pacing or anything like that. Not only do I not dislike slower pacing and even extremely slow paced endeavors (slower than Monster) - I prefer them. And I can watch dozens, hundreds, a thousand or more episodes of a series if I were truly invested in what was transpiring on screen, which for me starts with the central main characters and their role in the story, their internal struggles, relation to one another, relatability to me, etc. My gripe is that I don't find the characters compelling (Tenma is a bland protagonist), but even moreso, rather than the fault lying with even Tenma or any other individual character, I just outright dislike the storytelling structure of constantly, every other episode shifting to side characters and what resembles a side plot. Yes, I'm not dense and understand that it all has ultimate relevance in some way, shape, or form and connects narratively and/or thematically, but that doesn't raise the enjoyability factor for me and I have a great distaste for this kind of quasi-episodic or faux-episodic-esque storytelling approach. As a major and longtime thriller and horror fan, and someone who would also like to see more of an increase in serious police and crime drama subgenre anime, I found the first 13 episodes fantastic. I also find the art style comfortable and fitting just right. I think this is the first and only anime series I've ever watched before or since that I actually think would benefit (or let's say more specifically, I would enjoy more) with a fewer number of episodes. Usually I'm always complaining about the exact opposite problem. The first dozen or 13 episodes, whatever it was, were absolutely needed and essential. Then I got tired of the aforementioned ADHD-style format. Maybe if you had those first episodes and then another 20 or 30. I may have watched it through if I knew it had an episode count in the 40s versus the 70s with that narrative method. Actually, it's a bit humorous to me that I am such a big thriller and horror fan and yet some of the only series I've officially dropped (I don't usually count series where I watched like one episode or even just a few minutes of the first episode to test the waters) are thrillers and/or horrors (Monster, Shinsekai Yori, and Ghost Hunt) and also some of my lowest rated completed series are as well (Another, Satsuriku no Tenshi, Babylon, Umineko, Terra Formars, etc.) Probably it's a result of the fact that because I love the genres so much and grew up absorbing them, I'm extra hard on and unforgiving with them as I know how glorious they can be when executed properly. |
| havent really had an interest to watch it for a few reasons, it's length, it being older in a boxed video format, can't find it anywhere above 480p, and from what i've heard its 70 ep of the same thing |
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Deathko said: Sheklon said: Honestly, I don't remember the anime since I saw it when I was 12 or something, so I just rated it the same as the manga (which I read some years ago). lol It's been a favorite anime/manga ever since. It's hard to find other stories with this sort of intricate but well planned plot that (for me at least) is not super pretentious. That and you hated Tenma? I ask because I remember you saying that in the trolley problem thread. It was my first experience with Urasawa's works, so that probably couldn't have bothered me. But what do you mean by that? I've seen someone say before that Johann is a less interesting character than the narrative sells him as, and I can agree with that. I still love what his presence represents for the development of the story, though. I think Tenma as a character gets a lot of development for 60+ eps, and just sits on his thumbs undoing it all in the last eps. That's part of my problem with Monster. If your MC is going to learn nothing from his adventure, maybe the adventure shouldn't be 64 eps long. My other problem with Monster is about the way Urasawa writes in itself, and there I have really nothing good to say. I loved Pluto. I think Urasawa can lay some pretty interesting and mature themes on top of his stories... I also think he's a terrible story teller. I know, I have Pluto in favs, but you'll see what I mean soon, and we'll even have the chance to talk about Johan. Urasawa has two story-telling gimmicks at his disposal, and he's totally unable to write an action scene. Lets take his first gimmick. How many gunshots in Monster? And how many gunshots happening ONSCREEN? Exactly, close to zero. Urasawa blesses us with an offscreen "suspense" gunshot every two chapters, it's just beyond ridiculous at this point. No, Tenma isn't going to get shot between ep 21 and 22 of your 64 eps long show, just stop with this Urasawa. He does the same thing in Pluto, where every important fight happens offscreen, and you're just told who tf won at the end. Like, c'mon, something about "show, don't tell'... His second gimmick relates to Johan. And unlike many people here, I do not consider Johan to be on par with Griffith, or a good villain. I don't even think he's a mediocre villain. He's quite probably one of the very worst literary villain I put my eyes on. ANd I'm sure you can already feel where I'm going with this. Remember "show, don't tell"? Well, Johan is entirely characterized by characters telling us what he is, not by Urasawa showing us. You'll get the same boring scene of random passerbys stuttering his name, eyes wide open in fear. Again. And again. And again. But what's the nastiest shit Johan does on screen? Play with kids? Look slightly challenged with his habit to smile 24/7? How is he such a praised character, it's beyond me. Legit any bad guy who talks in DBZ is a better antagonist than Johan, as far as I'm concerned. So here you have it, Urasawa summed up in three sentences. The dude really needs to either 1/ learn a third story telling gimmick or 2/ stop writing 10+ volumes manga. Pluto was nice. it was way too short for me to get extra annoyed at the awful story telling. I see, thank you for the reply. A lot of your issues with Urasawa seem indeed to be with how he keeps telling instead of showing, and probably the pacing. Something that might also influence his works (I've read some of Pluto and Vagabond too, but I couldn't buy all the volumes here) is how he seems to use fiction mainly as ground to discuss his themes, which might be why the come off as "too much realism" as another person said in this thread. In a way, his fiction is basically an essay with thesis, antithesis and synthesis on the topics that he wanted to discuss, and through that interpretation it does seem like his synthesis on Monster was mostly unaffected by the antithesis (i.e. Tenma remained the same in the end). If you expect some quality change or something relevant to be achieved narratively, it could be disappointing. But as for me, I'm not so adamant on the whole "show, don't tell" thing. Some of the best works of Brazilian literature use lot of "telling", but done by interesting narrators, and I think this can work if done right. An author such as Machado de Assis uses a lot of narrative ellipses (timeskips and "off-screen" events) as well as using limited narrators, an intrinsic part of what makes the story compelling. An example is how Dom Casmurro is first an intimate story about the MC's life, and only secondly a love story about him and Capitu. We see their relationship develop from childhood until his death through his first person narrator lens, only to learn in the end that he was cucked by his best friend (lol). Or was he? This book is often used at schools as solid example of unreliable narration, because you don't get any true, fatal evidence that an affair existed other than some odd coincidences and the MC's own suspicion. Basically, what I'm saying here is that I don't mind consuming the content of the story through dialogue and words rather than through actions, probably due to a different background (although I generally agree that showing fits much better in a visual medium such as anime/manga), as long as the arguments being put forth are compelling and/or I feel like I'm given some perspectives to think about or subjects to explore. In that sense, I think Monster with its slow paced narrative, that focus on the human aspect of themes rather than the concrete actions, gives the viewer a lot of space to insert their thoughts and experience it as something similar to a conversation/discussion with the author, except the author is giving you the arguments and you're just responding to them in your mind without a feedback cycle. I guess this is why it works for some and for others it doesn't, since it depends first on your level of knowledge and experience with the theme (someone who has already exhausted the topic of morality and crime would likely be bored), and it also relies a lot on the viewer/reader's imaginative power to fill in the gaps of the narrative (say, to imagine what could be so horrible that a monster would do, and assume that's what Johan could have done). It also plays with contrast on purpose at times, of course. Seeing Johann being mostly kind and timid on screen while learning about his involvement in abhorrent off-screen events is what appeals to that traditional oral telling habit of hearing about something horrible that happened in your town, and the culprit happens to be the nice kid on the corner street who you'd never have thought to be so inhumane. (I don't think I'm taking this off my ass because I do remember "monsters are just humans" being a main underlying idea of it.) Anyway, it's interesting to hear different thoughts and you and other commenters here helped me understand better the reasoning for not liking the show, so thank you. :) I definitely wouldn't deny the pacing issues and the exposition problems brought here either, I especially agree with your comment about firearm training. lmao. Edit: @Deathko sorry for the late reply, I had read your post before, but didn't find much time to login lately. Don't worry, there is too much literature out there for one person to know it all. Hadn't heard of your French example either, but it sounds interesting! I definitely agree that Griffith is a more interesting character all in all, because we see him actually participating and he definitely looks unsettling on-screen, even his appearance was a good design choice for passing the idea of an ambiguous person whose mind is hard to read etc. |
SheklonAug 13, 2022 4:04 PM
| its my 2nd fav series of all time. so yeah, i love it. people complain about the pacing but imo the pacing is perfect with the atmosphere of the entire show. psychological series without cringe are very rare, thankfully it wasn't. and not to mention, even side characters who appear for 1-2 ep are more well written than 95% anime characters. literally the best character writing ever. also the message of the overall series is great and meaningful. |
Blueberry173Aug 9, 2022 9:04 PM
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| @Sheklon I'll have to admit that my spanish/portuguese literature knowledge is lacking. Like... Really lacking. But I see what you mean, and I agree that "show, don't tell" is not an absolute rule. In fact, it's not a rule in many genres, especially horror, and I feel maybe (I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt here) that's what Urasawa was going for with Johan? Anyway, I don't think it worked that much. I'll come back to Griffith vs Johan... I feel Griffith is a lot more usnettling. You're not left guessing how he's screwing people, but why, and that makes him more relatable, because he's definitely a human being like the viewer, not some... Monster. I generally dislike the whole semantic game that consists of putting walls between bad people and us by using dehumanizing words. "Monsters" and "lunatics" and "terrorists"... I believe it's mostly a way to avoid the discomfort of relating to these people, and Monster kinda strikes that chord hard, with the surnatural fear Johan inspires. Anyway, to go back to actual books, Jacques the fatalist and his master, the first (?) french novel, is actually about two dudes telling stories that keep getting interrupted and postponed... While the narrator does the same thing with the story itself. Good read, fun times. Lots of telling. ;). |
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| Don't kill me, please. I feel I am not in a position to debate. I didn't love Monster, it got a 6 on my list and it's one of the entries with that score I like the least. I felt the plot walked in circles and the ending was not satisfying. |
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| pretty good, nice study on evil and all that kinda slow, but i dont have adhd so i dont mind |
| One of my favorites kinda slow paced at first but I didn't had any problem with it since I like slowpaced anime |
| Definitely one of my favorite works of all time, and for sure my favorite from Madhouse, even though animation today is aged. I watched the anime already expecting something amazing and, even so, that didn't minimize the surprise even during the first episode. In each of the chapters, reflections and new social portraits appeared on the plane of each of the characters, in front of that noir-realistic portrait of a society marked by a historical context and a plot that slowly made its discourse more and more worthwhile. One interesting thing from my experience is that when I come across works like this (usually my favorites), I tend to copy multiple quotes and paste into a notepad, noting the relevant topics and messages for future rewatches or comments. And, in the case of Monster, there were about 80 relevant topics, socially speaking, addressed. More than its 74 episodes. It is a work that has a lot to teach the viewer, so to speak, and with a wonderful density of problems and illustrations. |
| It's good but way too slow with some phases where I was bored to say the least and the ending didn't really deliver completely considering all the buildup beforehand (the pacing didn't make me hate the medium though like Hunter x Hunter's Chimera Ant arc or JoJo's Stardust Crusaders part). It's definitely better than the majority of other anime out there with many interesting ideas present, but not good enough to be close to one of my favorites nowadays. One thing's for sure, I'll never be able to rewatch this. Madhouse did do a solid job with adapting this Urasawa manga though. |
animejasAug 17, 2022 9:02 PM
| Good shit but not a masterpiece imho, and nowhere near a favorite of mine. The adaptation had an impressive sense of atmosphere and tone thanks to the aesthetics and soundtrack. However, the story felt quite dragged at times and I didn't feel like the ending was as satisfying a conclusion as most people make it out to be. It's still better than most of the stuff I've watched nowadays. |
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