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Poll: Mahouka Koukou no Yuutousei Episode 11 Discussion


#1
Sep 11, 2021 7:58 AM

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THIS IS AN ANIME ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS THE MANGA BEYOND THIS EPISODE.
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Well, it makes sense that Tatusya's teammates and freinds wants to keep the competition as safe as possible. There have been some incidents already...

On the other hand, it's kinda cool to see rivals fighting side by side with each other against a common enemy.
 
#2
Sep 11, 2021 7:58 AM

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I Two Syaorans from Tsubasa RESERVoir CHRoNiCLE and TRC!!!
 
#3
Sep 11, 2021 8:08 AM

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This episode is not particularly interesting.

Mikihiko and Leo are almost unrecognizable...
 
#4
Sep 11, 2021 9:53 AM
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Damm the boys team sure suffered quite the ambush. Still using the competition as a means to secure more money through cheating sure was a cunning move for no head dragon. Given what has happened so far its fair to see Miyuki be on edge about the sabotages not to mention the suspicion of Shizuku and co. While exhausting for them the little safety net of Eimi's plan was a nice show of support though. But the unexpected aid from Airi and her friends was a nice surprise. To players who had trained hard for this event having that determination trampled upon by criminals intent on making a profit is something that they can never allow. Overall a pretty fun ep that combined excellent tension with some decent action via Airi and co's brief defeat of the saboteurs. Though they may be rivals their assist of Miyuki and Honoka showed well that while victory is important so is fariness.
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#5
Sep 11, 2021 10:03 AM
黒の剣士

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Damn cool to see the girls working together to solve things without having to get Tatsuya involved. I’ve enjoyed the spin off a lot more than I thought I would.
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#6
Sep 11, 2021 10:05 AM

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Here we go again with the second-rate corrupted adults who try everything dirty to meet their goals. I like that they didn't emphasize the monolith event that much because we have already seen it from the first season of Mahouka.
ふっふーん、真姫ちゃんはゴージャスな衣装がよく似合うでしょ?
今から0を100にするのは無理だと思う。でも、もしかしたら1にすることはできるかも。
これから彼方ちゃんの一番の魅力…… 寝顔を特別に見放題にします……
演劇もスクールアイドルも、観に来てくれた人を楽しませて、感動させて、そして笑顔になってもらう為の表現の場、一緒なんだってことに。
こんな普通な私だけど、ううん、こんな普通な私だからこそ出来ることがあるんじゃないかと思って、
スクールアイドル、始めることにしました。

国立音ノ木坂学院浦の星女学院虹ヶ咲学園結ヶ丘女子高等学校
 
#7
Sep 11, 2021 11:05 AM

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They seriously rushed Chadsuya's game like that. I'm really disappointed and this pretty much ruined my enjoyment. Well, it's a spin-off for the third high girls so it's understandable.


“You yourself have to change first, or nothing will change for you!”
'
 
#8
Sep 11, 2021 11:42 AM
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I am going crazy l read the LN for this the girls protecting Tatsuya isn't mentioned in the LN right ??
 
 
#9
Sep 11, 2021 11:44 AM
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tetrix1993 said:
This episode is not particularly interesting.

Mikihiko and Leo are almost unrecognizable...


I can see Leo a bit but Mikihiko looks so different.
 
Sep 11, 2021 11:50 AM

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RedBellyPiranha said:
I am going crazy l read the LN for this the girls protecting Tatsuya isn't mentioned in the LN right ??


I don't know about the LN. But i know that many events in this series are different from how it happened in season 1.

Honestly, i think this spin off is a dumpster fire which gets worse and worse for each episode, it had a lot of potential, episode 1 was great, how did it go so horribly wrong afterwards?
 
 
Sep 11, 2021 12:18 PM
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SomeNewGuy said:
RedBellyPiranha said:
I am going crazy l read the LN for this the girls protecting Tatsuya isn't mentioned in the LN right ??


I don't know about the LN. But i know that many events in this series are different from how it happened in season 1.

Honestly, i think this spin off is a dumpster fire which gets worse and worse for each episode, it had a lot of potential, episode 1 was great, how did it go so horribly wrong afterwards?


Yes it just feels kinda shit ,l feel there was a lot of fan service which l am not a fan of the over sexualization of Honoka kinda pissed me .

I wish they had worked on moving the series forward , looking forward to the Reminisce Act l read the LN l enjoyed . I hope they don't sideline Honomi and Miya.
I really liked Honomi as a character in the Reminisce Act.
 
Sep 11, 2021 12:36 PM

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Too bad we did not get to see Tatsuya's match against Masaki. It was great seeing the girls from Third High helping Miyuki and the girls.

Looking forward to next week's Mirage Bat.
Modified by Leo, Sep 11, 2021 12:42 PM

 
Sep 11, 2021 2:14 PM
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Does any1 know the soundtrack at the end when tatsuya won?
 
Sep 11, 2021 2:26 PM

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I really wished to watch Monolith Code final event in this animations. Also I wonder what will they show us except that Mirage Bat event.



Edit: Added some words i forgot to.
 
Sep 11, 2021 4:55 PM
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Wow, so lame, I was soo excited to see HIM FINALLY go all out, and he does ONE move. Dudes the most OP character ever and he barely does anything but tweak people's gear. And I kept waiting for things to get serious with some BIG battles, and there was just some sabotage and then regular matches uhhh bummer lol
 
Sep 12, 2021 1:15 AM
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DKDiabloLicht said:
Wow, so lame, I was soo excited to see HIM FINALLY go all out, and he does ONE move. Dudes the most OP character ever and he barely does anything but tweak people's gear. And I kept waiting for things to get serious with some BIG battles, and there was just some sabotage and then regular matches uhhh bummer lol

He's not the main character of this spin-off and we've already seen the whole fight from his perspective in Rettousei. The season has been following a trend where we don't see things from his perspective; we barely get to see what he does in this spin-off. Everything he's done is only portrayed by the other girls talking about it.
 
Sep 12, 2021 1:34 AM
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Symons1m said:
Have been really busy with other stuff recently, so here's my belated reply.
no pressure mate, just reply as you feel led. I'm in no hurry.

Symons1m said:
I did mention the need of highly skilled anime producers for a reason. It’d have solved the inherent issue with the concept of combat you’re talking about.

As for your explanation on what makes a good fight, of course, I agree with you. But again, we need better anime producers to solve the issue.

Most of your problems originate from the work of the anime producers, so you're free to criticize the anime as much you want, as long as your complains are reasonable.
I'm serious here, a western standoff style fight would actually require less animation and more stills. Of course it would be better executed with more skilled crew but in the end even just copying the same style as The Good the Bad and the Ugly directly would still be a vast improvement over what we've got so far. In the end it's just that one decision that had poorly reflected in the show. I feel it's inconsiderate to blame that solely on the producers.

Symons1m said:
IMO something should only be adapted if it has something to gain from transitioning to a new medium. But that's my personal opinion, and the anime industry clearly doesn't work like that.

Of course, most people involved in various businesses don’t care about such things, so it's impossible for anime adaptations to be an exception, either.
It's interesting. Many people I've spoken to are fine with this. As long as they get anime they know they'll love then they don't care. But then suddenly the line is drawn with Live Action adaptations. All of a sudden it becomes obvious to people when a show has nothing to gain from transitioning between anime and live action.

Symons1m said:
At the end of the day, MAL does not really give a fair spectrum of opinions.

Yeah, that’s why you shouldn’t be relying on the comments here to form your opinion.
And that's also why I stated that effectively speaking this means I can't really assess the public opinion on mahouka. So I just won't.

Symons1m said:
In terms of storytelling the concept of an overpowered power fantasy protagonist is dumb. It's considered "low brow" storytelling.

Now that’s just your own subjective opinion, as you’re literally trying to restrict the freedom of creation by labeling it as you wish. You’re basically trying to impose your own rule as a fact, so I don’t feel the need to say much about it.
I'm not restricting anyone's freedom. There are inherent flaws with "low brow" storytelling, that's why it's looked down upon, but that doesn't mean stories that come out of that general formula are considered bad. But I'll give you a small essay just like I did with explaining fight story structure because I got time lmao.
At its most simplistic a story is a character with a goal/desire which is presented with an obstacle, in which the character shall fail to overcome it, and then change or grow in some way and finally overcome the obstacle. The essential aspects of a story is the fact that a character/dynamic should change as a result of the story from the end compared to the beginning. The more difficult the obstacle is to overcome, the more satisfying it is when that obstacle is eventually overcome.
The reason why writers look down on overpowered protagonists is because this inherent nature makes it impossible for them to truly be presented with an obstacle that they will struggle to overcome, and when they do, it is rarer still for them to be able to change as a result of this in any way. Tatsuya cannot grow and change because he is already a perfect protagonist. And that makes the story structure "low brow".

Symons1m said:
And I don't mean physically overpowered, but overpowered in his ability to effortlessly overcome any and all issues presented by the story.

This is 100% false, and even the extremely lacking anime shows you otherwise. It seems that your bias is really clouding your sense of judgement and observation.

I haven't noticed anything particularly "unorthodox" in Mahouka's story structure, however that's not to say it isn't. If you could provide some examples for what you consider "unorthodox" that would be much obliged.

As proved above, your bias is seriously affecting your perception of this series. I’ll give you a simple example that even you should be able to see as “unorthodox” – The Nine Schools Competition.

Yes, you saw it right. Now if you can’t see how it is “unorthodox”, I can’t help you with it. As someone who thinks and writes so much, it should be a piece of cake to figure it out after all.
You see when I disagree with you, I attempt to layout a proper counterargument with multiple examples that allow you to see how a particular concept relates to mahouka. You can't just disagree without providing any evidence or examples. I'm not going to suddenly understand because you said I'm wrong. This is something I have learnt time and time again in online debates. Never assume the person you're talking to knows what you are thinking of. It's not because I'm dumb or you're smart, different perspectives identify different things.
Consider this as well - perhaps I have experienced a wider variety of stories and therefore don't find the 9 schools unorthodox. Or perhaps I have a very different definition for what an "unorthodox" story is? We're never going to know unless you explain how you believe that 9 schools is unorthodox

Now going back to the overpowered stuff, I can provide many examples of where Tatsuya is able to effortlessly overcome problems presented to him by the story.
1-any fight he is involved in he wins. Every story beat that is resolved through combat is a predictable win for Tatsuya.
2-Tatsuya never fails in the anime. He has never set out to do something and failed.
3-Tatsuya physically defeating people results in a change of heart and resolves whatever immediate (or sometimes an entire arc's) situation he is facing. In the circumstances where this is not the case, he kills them instead, meaning that the situation is usually resolved nonetheless.
another interesting note might be this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bBlOSUfgfs
it's from 2015 and its view on Mahouka mostly coincides what I and many others have observed, but is definitely overly simplistic.

Symons1m said:
We have also yet to run into any morally grey "bad guys" in the story so far except for the Stars - in which case I would agree they are certainly not black and white, but in the...

And you might never run into morally grey “bad guys” if that’s how you see things (though it’s the fault of the anime too). Let me tell you one thing, the majority of people that appear in Mahouka are morally grey. Don't ever judge the characters of this series from how they're presented on the surface.
What am I supposed to judge them from then? As above if you want to disagree, please give some examples and points of reference that I could use to understand in what ways the LN differs from the anime. For all I know you could be talking complete BS. You haven't even provided any argument in support, just simply stated that I'm wrong.

Symons1m said:
And no, it's not the parasite but the humans they possess that are 'evil'. If you didn't get it even after the explanation given on them in Season 2, it shows your lack of observation and understanding.
It's been a while. No need to throw out insults.

Symons1m said:
This shows once again that you simply don't get what's going on in Mahouka, and most of your thoughts and opinions about the series are based on misinterpretations and lack of understanding. So, you really aren't qualified enough to judge it in any way. At this point, you can only criticize yourself instead of the anime, much less the source material.
Now I really don't like how you've phrased my "not understanding". There's a difference between forgetting a detail and a failure of comprehension. This argument gives you the ability to write anything I say off as an inability to understand and therefore refuse to interact with any of my arguments. I'm not sure what you perceive this discussion to be, but in its current form this is not a debate but merely me presenting ideas and you rejecting them while refusing to provide any grounds or reason to do so. I'm not unqualified to judge it, you are merely unable to critically analyse my statements or your own.

Symons1m said:
In the end the overall plot of Mahouka and the individual story arcs I've seen so far have aspects of them that most definitely made it through the transition between LN and anime. Although the finer details were screwed over, the overarching plot details seem to me to be faithful to the LN and therefore worthy of criticism for both mediums of the story.
100% incorrect, and it’s nothing more than your own assumption. You just need to talk with some people who’ve actually read and understood the story of the LN to verify that Mahouka anime covers only the surface-level things and leaves out tons and tons of information. Not only so, it even alters various things in such a way that negatively affects the story. It has even fully skipped multiple volumes so far. Do you know that many Mahouka anime haters are actually its LN readers? Yeah, that's how much the anime is disappointing to them compared to the LN. It's not much of an exaggeration to say that anime-only viewers of Mahouka barely know about the series as a whole. The anime simply lacks that much in every aspect.

So don’t try to make up reasons to justify your bias-fueled criticism of the LN. You should limit your criticism to the anime if you want to be taken seriously. The more one reads the LN, the more they realize how lacking the anime is in comparison (as also proved by many people mentioning how their opinion on the series changed after reading the LN), so making your assumptions based on the extremely flawed anime adaptations is truly pointless.
Just because someone hates the same thing as me doesn't mean that they hate them for the same reasons or are even grounded in logic whatsoever. Unless you're going to directly quote someone, it would be really beneficial to the discussion to refrain from referencing an unquantifiable "majority opinion".
You see the irony here is that I am currently talking to someone who has read the LN but they refuse to give examples or provide any evidence for their claims, and so to me, a non-LN reader, You could literally be speaking another language and it would still have the same level of verifiability.
That is not to say I think myself correct. I apologise for phrasing the statement you've quoted so concretely. I wanted know to if this overarching plot was similar, you said no but I can't see how it physically wouldn't be the same. Even in some of the worst adaptations I have ever seen the overarching plot remained the same. Even in the live action Avatar movie, known as one of the worst adaptations of a cartoon/anime series of all time, the overarching plot remained the same. So if you want to disagree with basic storytelling adaptation conventions, then it would be incredibly convenient if you could provide some examples. I don't necessarily think you are wrong - you could well be right, but it doesn't even matter whether you are or not because you've done nothing other than state things without any logic or evidence.
As for bias, please grow up. Everyone has a level of bias surrounding works of art in some way. The only people pretending they are unbiased lack the self awareness to identify their own biases. I know I hate mahouka, that's why I am always careful to attempt to re-examine my arguments to make sure they remain rational despite this bias. Just because someone is biased doesn't make them wrong.

Symons1m said:
I'm going to say this. If you're going to use virtual waves then it's equivalent to using regular unscientific magic. It's like chucking the word mana onto any normal physical phenomena so you don't have to explain it.
My question would then be...

This is what happens when you don’t pay attention to what the other party mentions. Do you remember how I specifically stated that magic in Mahouka isn’t only based on real science, but programming too?
This is what you mentioned as reply:
this is me being a pedantic asshole - but programming is a science.

Yeah, I deliberately made a clear distinction between the two, so that you'd realize your mistake. I hope I don’t need to tell you how programming works, right?

Virtual waves that aren’t directly applied on the pillars can’t be protected by data reinforcement as far as I remember, as Magic in Mahouka is the process of directly affecting the target in some way. Data reinforcement safeguards something against a direct change through magic that was applied on the target or through some influence from the “outside”, so it can’t protect against something that has already bypassed that layer of defense.
Thank you for taking the time to explain what a virtual wave is.
But there is no such thing as a virtual wave in programming. Virtual in itself loosely means "simulated". It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with programming. Programming isn't "virtual" unless it's simulating something, or being expressed in terms of something real. Such as "the internet is virtual space" as in it is space that you can't see because it is space that exists only within computers.
Concepts like data storage and fortification directly translate to programming. But the concept of simulating real life phenomenon as magic is incredibly convoluted and nonsensical.
In what way is a virtual wave different to a real wave? How can a wave be "simulated" if it can physically affect things in real life? You literally said "Magic in Mahouka is the process of directly affecting the target in some way" in which virtual waves contradict this.
The way I interpreted "virtual waves" were as waves that don't exist or exist outside of our dimension which can then be transformed into real waves in order to affect something. Now if you consider the fact that you can create anything you want virtually and have it operate outside of the boundaries of real phenomenon, then that is essentially the same as unscientific magic. Simply writing it off as "it's programming" doesn't solve the problem like it did with data fortification.

This is all semantics, but it is interesting semantics. Although considering the overwhelming information disparity between us I'd forgive you for being frustrated or annoyed at my lack of knowledge.

Symons1m said:
Isn't Erica changing the weight rather than directly changing inertia?

Magicians can do both. I don't remember whether she was directly changing inertia, but I do know that she was manipulating inertia in some way.
From memory she was only changing the weight, which will directly affect inertia, so that is probably what you're thinking of.

Symons1m said:
But in my opinion that was beyond a lack of effort, that felt like it was animated purely off the storyboards.

Even you can see how bad the anime adaptation is, so I’m sincerely advising you again to keep your criticism to the anime. Our conversations have already made it evident that it's impossible to get a good idea about the LN (source material) from the anime.
I am still not so sure. You seem to have made up your mind before you even started this post, and all your statements have been made assuming that is objective fact that doesn't need to be proven or demonstrated.

still despite these setbacks I am confident there can be some proper discussion on the topic. Perhaps @malMaxi would have something to add to this as he has in fact read the LNs but is not labouring under the assumption that they are flawless literary works of art.
 
Sep 12, 2021 3:39 AM
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theGodde said:
I think the inherent issue with Miyuki (at least the anime) is that she doesn't have an established motivation to be "free spirited" or any actual goals/dreams outside of Tatsuya to pursue. Her only well-established motivation in the show is that she wants Tatsuya to acknowledge and appreciate her (In more ways than one). If there's one change that needs to be made it's that she needs more established motivations for her actions.

I agree on that sentiment. Would definitely love to see the main duo relationship established a bit better.

At the same time, however, do remember that your interest in Mahouka is tied to figuring out what is it about it that works for its audience (outside of obvious fetish pandering). I maintain that the specific character of Miyuki, who is simultaneously a classic refined priestess of good magic and a murderous jealous harpy, is one of the things that works.

We are on the same page insofar as that we both want to see a more specific and fleshed out image of Miyuki. I also understand that there wasn't enough for you in the show proper to get the image of Miyuki that i got. However, if you are serious about targeting the audience that enjoys Mahouka, than I do insist that you need to consider Miyuki from that exact angle. Because that is what works about her (at least, in my opinion), even the specific execution didn't get through to you personally.

I am pretty well versed in story convention and storytelling. The problem here was how I planned it. I had a very long form story planned out. The first "period" of the story would take place over 3 years, with each year being its own contained story as well. I had one basic plan for the first year which I knew wasn't going to cut it. So I just sat down, bit the bullet, and wrote the first volume with almost no planning. What I got was a poorly constructed oftentimes nonsensical mess of conflicting ideas. However they were all fresh, inspired ideas that I hadn't gotten when I was planning before. So I went back and completely rewrote the plan for the first year and a bit of the second year to take these new ideas into account. And so a very bland edgy action high school story morphed into a political thriller about the inherent ethics of culturally justified terrorism.
So I wouldn't say that it was all "useless fluff" that could be easily changed or thrown out, but that my story is an interconnected web of themes, ideas, character arcs, and plots. One small change can have a massive rippling effect throughout the story. For example, there was a plot hole that the main characters ended up in a place they shouldn't have been in order for the story to take place, so I thought about it and constructed a government conspiracy that required the characters to be in that place, which in turn required the entire "year 1" story arc to be redesigned to resolve this conspiracy. And as I went on more layers were added until it became a political thriller. This is what I would call functional perfectionism. Rather than allowing plot holes and character inconsistencies to remain unresolved, I continue to iron them out and deal with the resulting rippling effects within the story that massively extends the time and effort required to make this story a reality.

At this point, i'm probably beginning to run the risk of appearing disrespectful or condescending towards the work you already put in. So i'd like to say that this is really not my intention :). My words are simply a reaction to your explanation of your process, thus are separated from your actual work by at least three layers of communication, all of which can (and usually do) be distorting the intended message.
If i am getting anything wrong - feel free to correct me at any point.

I understand that you have this grand ambition for this great interconnected story centered on the themes of ethics, culture and terrorism. This sounds like a great set of themes providing a complex web of relationships and connections. Definitely worth exploring.

I understand that you wrote out the initial plan for the whole grand vision, but something didn't work within the first year section of the plan. So you decided to sit down, write it out and see how it all shakes out. This was the exactly right move ). From your explanation, i understand it was successful - you wrote the story itself and got a whole lot of new ideas for how to follow it up. A good question to ask yourself at this junction is whether you feel the first year story is complete, or if there is something that went unaddressed. Did you already release the story of a first year somewhere? If not - what's preventing you from doing so?

I understand that you feel the way the first volume turned out has really constrained you as an author. You are now struggling to get the story moving in the direction that interests you. From what i understand, the fact that a story about ethics, culture and terrorism is becoming more of a political thriller doesn't sit right with you. I understand you now find yourself in a position of having to write actual political power plays, which should never have been the focus to begin with. Is that perception correct?

I think Sasuke always wanted to have that connection with Naruto, but his own conflicting priorities superseded that.
That said, it's really impossible to tell where this could have gone without more insight from Kishimoto (rip). For now we can only look at it from the perspective of a show that lost its way and failed to reinvent itself.

I'd say Sasuke wanted to feel superior, to be challenged and to be proven right. I did not register any desire for actual companionship on his end. He got challenged, found himself losing, corrected his mistake.
Heck, now that i think of it, this actually puts Sasuke as the protagonist of the first section of the story. Naruto was the antagonist - the one forcing change.
As a result, when Sasuke departed, the story was left without a protagonist. Which is also why Kishimoto felt the need to introduce a whole slew of new protagonist candidates in the form of Konoha kids durnig Sasuke escape arc. And which is also why Shipuuden actually starts with Gaara, not Naruto.

I'm perfectly happy with that conclusion for now :D. Seems to reinforce my approach for analysing things. Whether Kishimoto chooses to confirm this or not in the future doesn't actually matter that much :)

I don't understand what you mean. Take Night Head 2041. It's supposed to be a show exploring the ethics of an oppressive regime - where it works and where it doesn't, as well as freedom of expression as a human right (a strong theme). However, because the execution is so terrible you could consider it "had a good premise but couldn't deliver", and I would agree. But at the same time it doesn't suddenly cease to have those themes. They remain there even when poorly communicated (perhaps just a little more difficult to find).

Well, Night Head is not a top 100 show (according to ratings, at least), so i'm not sure why it is an example :D. It is obviously true that execution is what keeps it from top 100.

Let's try thinking of it this way. It is not enough to just declare a theme, you also need to actually sell the viewer on it. Some viewers will be sold just by declaration of the theme - because they really love such a theme and will eat anything related to it straight up. For example, i'm a sucker for RPG city/economy building, so stuff like Shield Hero or more recent Genjitsu Yuusha is right up my alley, no questions asked :D. Same with shows that show off a society revolving around some fantasy tech (like the previously mentioned air skates show).

However, all of this only applies to shows with themes that click for me personally. Shows that declare other themes will need to actually work a little to get me on board.

For example, something like Yakusoku no Neverland (supposedly an underdog political survival) didn't click with me at all, whereas something like Kaiji (also underdog political survival) totally did. In fact, if pressed, i'd even say that, in my mind, Yakusoku no Neverland should have never tried to pretend at politicking and was actually harmed in the long run by doing so (at least, given the first season material that i'm familiar with).

As a result, Neverland anime was only able to pretend at having political themes due to massive viewer expectation that existed on the basis of its manga. Before the first episode of anime even aired, it was already said to have political themes, because the viewers expected to find them. Since i haven't read the manga, i didn't expect the political theme from Neverland to begin with. And then the show didn't do enough to get me on board. As a result, i view Neverland as an example of a failure to do a poltical theme.

Now that i think of it, it might be interesting to figure out how the manga managed to sell that theme to begin with. But that's a story for another time i guess :D

And that is what would make these moral dilemmas interesting. It would be a subversion of expectations to take a character we know and love, and sacrifice them for a bunch of nameless characters we have no attachment to. Its very inhuman sociopathic nature would make the situation inherently fascinating.
That said we can both agree that Tatsuya doesn't quite fit the mould of a soldier.

I'd say we have now finalized one solid improvement towards Mahouka: Miyuki needs to do more to push Tatsuya into various ethical dilemmas.
I still think Tatsuya being a military asset is an important point. However, i concede that this point is probably not fundamental to his character. It is mostly there to facilitate him getting into the situations involving life and death on massive scale.

you certainly like your obscure anime lmao.
As for "being an engineer", I meant it specifically in the kind of approach I was suggesting. The concept of starting from a known point of human civilisation and tracking every invention from then and how it would shape the culture and future innovation eventually resulting in a drastically different world. This is based on the fundamental understanding that innovation is driven by demand and priority. Wars and conflict escalate technology. Global catastrophes, financial collapses, and industry "fads" and conventions. Some new technology we have known about for years but never been able to put into to practice may become possible from a fictional technological leap. In the same way technology that we take for granted may never be pursued simply because there is no need or demand. That's the way an engineer would build a world.

So, applying it to Mahouka, i understand you want CADs to be fleshed out not just in terms of how they work, but also in terms of what demands resulted in appearance of that tech, how it is supplied etc.
The closest point of contrast that we have is still World Trigger. Would you say World Trigger did enough to show off the "engineering" of its trigger tech? If so, which specific moments sold you on WT's engineering?

indeed. Some cool concepts are made possible within the different technological and cultural climate of mahouka.

When i think of a modern ninja, i still think of a guy in military wear. What is it specificially about ninjas that we want to keep over the military? Also, where there are ninjas, there also must be samurai. Wouldn't you say that the military guys could fit the role of the modern samurai quite nicely?
 
Sep 12, 2021 4:02 AM
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@theGodde @Symons1m
I personally found the novel to be 7/10 at the start and downhill from there :D
But what interests me in your discussion is not that, but the notion of virtual waves.

Let's first say that programming, especially one having to deal with issues of security and such, does have to deal with waves. For example, a DDoS attack is very much a wave. There is, however, nothing virtual about it. It is a rather direct physical attack aimed at congesting the input ports of a specific server with actual physical signals, which then completely drown out the server's ability to process those signals.

Even leaving aside DDoS attacks, even direct physical waves have an impact on computer systems. A whole set of issues in something like space computing arise from having to deal with fluctuating waves of both solar and space radiation.

There is, however, one moment where "virtuality" comes in. The incoming signals have to be at least somewhat hard to process for the target server. To begin with, they have to be aimed at a very specific virtual port. Then, they need to conform to a very specific basic structure so as not to be outright discarded by the server. The server also can be running something like a Cloudflare, which is essentially a virtualization layer filtering out most of the "bad" signals.

In other words, if we are talking attacks from virtual space, it isn't enough to have a wave of signals. The signals also need to hit the target's perception layer, which is protected both by physical barriers and by virtual barriers. Therefore, a much weaker signal that is properly virtualized (f/ex a malicious intervention using stolen account passwords) can have a much greater effect than a full-on DDoS attack.

So we can view something like Miyuki vs gray-hair girl situation (forgot the name, lol) as Miyuki straight up overpowering the grey-haired girl, while the grey haired-girl is trying to poke holes in Miyuki's overall defense.

I am not automatically opposed to the "reality rewriting" idea. Sure, our world can be a virtual reality matrix and some of us are able to directly access memory pointers. Why not.

The thing that prevents Mahouka's magic from really working for me is that i do not understand where exactly specifically Miyuki's superiority comes from. She has better measurements, sure, but what exactly is being measured? Is it some sort of inner Ki? But why is then Tatsuya, capable of way more destruction than Miyuki, is unable to use that Ki? I understand that there is this whole "she needs to permit his use of power" thing, but it really wasn't ever properly communicated.

Ultimately, the idea of "rewriting reality" influences a great deal of the show's proceedings and has never been truly fleshed out. Which is what prevents the magic system from working for me personally. Contrast with something like Trion from World Trigger, which - while in conception being a somewhat boring and basic energy meter, albeit with a cool cube visualisation, - affords a much more interesting and engaging magic combat system. On another hand, contrast with something like Index, which also works with the reality rewriting idea, but does a lot more with it - separating such rewriting into several schools, several levels and showing off a generally much wider variety of moves and effects.

When all is said and done, the original Mahouka S1 Sports Festival, which mostly focused on cool effects and costumes, worked much better for me than the current show's sports festival, which is trying to explain the magic and utterly failing.
Modified by malMaxi, Sep 12, 2021 4:09 AM
 
 
Sep 12, 2021 4:47 AM
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malMaxi said:
I personally found the novel to be 7/10 at the start and downhill from there :D
But what interests me in your discussion is not that, but the notion of virtual waves.

[...]

The thing that prevents Mahouka's magic from really working for me is that i do not understand where exactly specifically Miyuki's superiority comes from. She has better measurements, sure, but what exactly is being measured? Is it some sort of inner Ki? But why is then Tatsuya, capable of way more destruction than Miyuki, is unable to use that Ki? I understand that there is this whole "she needs to permit his use of power" thing, but it really wasn't ever properly communicated.

Ultimately, the idea of "rewriting reality" influences a great deal of the show's proceedings and has never been truly fleshed out. Which is what prevents the magic system from working for me personally. Contrast with something like Trion from World Trigger, which - while in conception being a somewhat boring and basic energy meter, albeit with a cool cube visualisation, - affords a much more interesting and engaging magic combat system. On another hand, contrast with something like Index, which also works with the reality rewriting idea, but does a lot more with it - separating such rewriting into several schools, several levels and showing off a generally much wider variety of moves and effects.
very fascinating analysis.
I'll hold off any real comments on it till symon1m gives his reply, because he'll obviously have a lot of interesting objections to raise as a fan of the magic system. I'd say while World Trigger is a really good example of a solid power system (season 3 hype lets go!) Index is probably more relevant because the psychic abilities are far closer to what Mahouka is going for. I'm not so well versed in the actual magic system of Index, but from my limited experience of the first half of the first season of mainline Index it seemed to be pretty well quantified (but also a lot less convenient). Did watch most of Railgun S1 though so I'm adequately experienced with the psychic power system.

it'll be interesting to see how this particular rabbit hole turns out
 
Sep 12, 2021 5:22 AM

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Oh right, Monolith Code match, and where everything led to Yokohama disturbance. Its funny how the no-head dragon east japan branch leader face get shadowed while i am actually already watch the main one. But, considering their end fate, well, doesn't matter then with their shadowed face xd. Behind the screen while Godsuya and his team facing the Crimson Prince. Third High girl and First High girl cooperated to keep the fight fair and square out of the outer interference. Even though they were already know, Godsuya way above and beyond them, the determination always be good to be appreciated. So thats it. This is truly a new experience, and i am glad watching this, aside of every bad sound surrounding this mere spin-off.

The last two will be Mirage Bat, and its surrounding disturbance that way beyond ridiculous. But, lets everything set up, shall you?
Hide and seek is the best offline games on this fatamorgana-called-world-thing. Please comment nicely. I am newbie here.

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Sep 12, 2021 6:05 AM
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malMaxi said:
At the same time, however, do remember that your interest in Mahouka is tied to figuring out what is it about it that works for its audience (outside of obvious fetish pandering). I maintain that the specific character of Miyuki, who is simultaneously a classic refined priestess of good magic and a murderous jealous harpy, is one of the things that works.

We are on the same page insofar as that we both want to see a more specific and fleshed out image of Miyuki. I also understand that there wasn't enough for you in the show proper to get the image of Miyuki that i got. However, if you are serious about targeting the audience that enjoys Mahouka, than I do insist that you need to consider Miyuki from that exact angle. Because that is what works about her (at least, in my opinion), even the specific execution didn't get through to you personally.
Interesting.
It's hard to say whether your interpretation is the true LN interpretation, but you've given me enough parallels to events in the anime to make it certainly seem plausible. I'll keep that in mind.

malMaxi said:
At this point, i'm probably beginning to run the risk of appearing disrespectful or condescending towards the work you already put in. So i'd like to say that this is really not my intention :). My words are simply a reaction to your explanation of your process, thus are separated from your actual work by at least three layers of communication, all of which can (and usually do) be distorting the intended message.
If i am getting anything wrong - feel free to correct me at any point.

I understand that you have this grand ambition for this great interconnected story centered on the themes of ethics, culture and terrorism. This sounds like a great set of themes providing a complex web of relationships and connections. Definitely worth exploring.

I understand that you wrote out the initial plan for the whole grand vision, but something didn't work within the first year section of the plan. So you decided to sit down, write it out and see how it all shakes out. This was the exactly right move ). From your explanation, i understand it was successful - you wrote the story itself and got a whole lot of new ideas for how to follow it up. A good question to ask yourself at this junction is whether you feel the first year story is complete, or if there is something that went unaddressed. Did you already release the story of a first year somewhere? If not - what's preventing you from doing so?

I understand that you feel the way the first volume turned out has really constrained you as an author. You are now struggling to get the story moving in the direction that interests you. From what i understand, the fact that a story about ethics, culture and terrorism is becoming more of a political thriller doesn't sit right with you. I understand you now find yourself in a position of having to write actual political power plays, which should never have been the focus to begin with. Is that perception correct?

honestly looking back my own story has been pretty nonsensically tied in with the rest of the discussions. I can't remember why I initially brought it up, maybe I just wanted to vent from the frustration I was feeling at my writer's block at the time.
In all, I feel very positive about the change, but it came at a cost. I have to spend far too much time rewriting. When you're writing a story, I have learnt that anything I am unable to express on paper is probably not a fully formed idea. What I had when I started writing volume 1 was a broad sketch of what I wanted. What came out was pure creative improvisation. And looking back I think it was so cool to be able to discover a new way to conceptualise original story ideas. This improvisation has also brought up a question. What is the correct balance between improvisation and calculated planning? Should I simply focus on visualising the characters and then write from only the broad general notes I have on the story? Or should I spend much more time visualising what I'm going to write and then coming in with a strong plan?
It took me 3 volumes and well over 6 months to find the right balance. And that has been an incredibly frustrating process.

As for the themes, I had a very loose structure for year 1. I had already decided on writing a long form story chronicling my protagonist from teenage-hood right up till his untimely death in his mid 30s/40, and using this protagonist to reimagine a series of cliche genre settings. First would be the "shounen battle high school" setting, where I wanted to envision how superpowers would be incorporated realistically into the military, government, morality, and daily life. Then following that a foreign civil war intervention, where I wanted to explore how superhuman powers would affect conflict and political struggles. Then finally I wanted to go full politics and demonstrate the inherent instability of concentrating powerful individuals solely in the armed forces - obviously in the form of a military coup.
So the fact that political thriller made itself into year 1 was actually a stroke of genius that I have my subconscious to thank. It would more accurately represent the themes of the main story going forwards and would provide an interesting element of foreshadowing to my planned final conclusion.

But lately my biggest issue has simply been the change in taste. As a teenager fresh out of High School I conceptualised this "battle shounen high school" trope subversion type story, but now I'd simply prefer to be telling a far more mature and contained story with higher stakes that just wouldn't be possible with a cast of immature teenagers in such a specific setting. This lack of motivation to tell the story I've planned has severely hampered its progress.
That said I think the planning is almost complete. I've got most of the characters' arcs pinned down for the entire first 3 years compromising the "battle shounen" - style setting. The plot for the first year is complete and I have the plot strands that begin in the first year that will extend further out, I simply have yet to weave them into a cohesive story for the second and third years. Everything is far more vivid in my mind than it was before. Watching a larger variety of anime and live action has given me more inspiration and general material to work with. It's all a matter of setting aside time during University to work on it, and having that passion and drive to put in the effort. So I guess this was just a rant that I needed to get out, some kind of inner demon I needed to exorcise to move on lmao. So just thanks for reading this, that's more than enough (although I'd be up for any advice you'd be willing to give on the matter).

malMaxi said:
I think Sasuke always wanted to have that connection with Naruto, but his own conflicting priorities superseded that.
That said, it's really impossible to tell where this could have gone without more insight from Kishimoto. For now we can only look at it from the perspective of a show that lost its way and failed to reinvent itself.

I'd say Sasuke wanted to feel superior, to be challenged and to be proven right. I did not register any desire for actual companionship on his end. He got challenged, found himself losing, corrected his mistake.
Heck, now that i think of it, this actually puts Sasuke as the protagonist of the first section of the story. Naruto was the antagonist - the one forcing change.
As a result, when Sasuke departed, the story was left without a protagonist. Which is also why Kishimoto felt the need to introduce a whole slew of new protagonist candidates in the form of Konoha kids durnig Sasuke escape arc. And which is also why Shipuuden actually starts with Gaara, not Naruto.

I'm perfectly happy with that conclusion for now :D. Seems to reinforce my approach for analysing things. Whether Kishimoto chooses to confirm this or not in the future doesn't actually matter that much :)
I got a very different picture of Sasuke. Although that said it was mostly from me trying to project the pre-shippuden Sasuke onto the post-shippuden edglord sasuke. I was so sure when watching that he was simply attempting to stifle his desire to return to the leaf and sacrificed it for the sake of his goal rather than actually becoming an entirely new person who totally rejected those desires. I'd say there's certainly a chance I was blinded by hopes and expectations.

malMaxi said:
I don't understand what you mean. Take Night Head 2041. It's supposed to be a show exploring the ethics of an oppressive regime - where it works and where it doesn't, as well as freedom of expression as a human right (a strong theme). However, because the execution is so terrible you could consider it "had a good premise but couldn't deliver", and I would agree. But at the same time it doesn't suddenly cease to have those themes. They remain there even when poorly communicated (perhaps just a little more difficult to find).

Well, Night Head is not a top 100 show (according to ratings, at least), so i'm not sure why it is an example :D. It is obviously true that execution is what keeps it from top 100.

Let's try thinking of it this way. It is not enough to just declare a theme, you also need to actually sell the viewer on it. Some viewers will be sold just by declaration of the theme - because they really love such a theme and will eat anything related to it straight up. For example, i'm a sucker for RPG city/economy building, so stuff like Shield Hero or more recent Genjitsu Yuusha is right up my alley, no questions asked :D. Same with shows that show off a society revolving around some fantasy tech (like the previously mentioned air skates show).

However, all of this only applies to shows with themes that click for me personally. Shows that declare other themes will need to actually work a little to get me on board.

For example, something like Yakusoku no Neverland (supposedly an underdog political survival) didn't click with me at all, whereas something like Kaiji (also underdog political survival) totally did. In fact, if pressed, i'd even say that, in my mind, Yakusoku no Neverland should have never tried to pretend at politicking and was actually harmed in the long run by doing so (at least, given the first season material that i'm familiar with).

As a result, Neverland anime was only able to pretend at having political themes due to massive viewer expectation that existed on the basis of its manga. Before the first episode of anime even aired, it was already said to have political themes, because the viewers expected to find them. Since i haven't read the manga, i didn't expect the political theme from Neverland to begin with. And then the show didn't do enough to get me on board. As a result, i view Neverland as an example of a failure to do a poltical theme.

Now that i think of it, it might be interesting to figure out how the manga managed to sell that theme to begin with. But that's a story for another time i guess :D

When you're talking about "selling" a theme, to me that just sounds like execution. I specifically referred to Night Head 2041 because I assumed we were talking about the priority in storytelling (theme > execution), and I wanted to point out that you can have a thematically complex and ambitious story that fails entirely because of execution, while a thematically desolate story can still succeed even without complex themes and ideas (such as Bleach).
As for Promised Neverland, I watched it with no expectations going in. I didn't see any political elements at all. It was just a good sci-fi survival thriller on the concept of "human cattle". The second they escaped for me the series was over. Even if you like what happens beyond the plot of season 1, they're essentially two different kinds of stories.
It's no more politically themed than Alien is politically themed.

malMaxi said:
And that is what would make these moral dilemmas interesting. It would be a subversion of expectations to take a character we know and love, and sacrifice them for a bunch of nameless characters we have no attachment to. Its very inhuman sociopathic nature would make the situation inherently fascinating.
That said we can both agree that Tatsuya doesn't quite fit the mould of a soldier.

I'd say we have now finalized one solid improvement towards Mahouka: Miyuki needs to do more to push Tatsuya into various ethical dilemmas.
I still think Tatsuya being a military asset is an important point. However, i concede that this point is probably not fundamental to his character. It is mostly there to facilitate him getting into the situations involving life and death on massive scale.
I think it could potentially work really well with Tatsuya's character if it wasn't for the school setting. Even if you had him being forced to go on missions, it wouldn't be able to tie into the story cohesively without completely separating itself from that setting and going in a new direction.

malMaxi said:
you certainly like your obscure anime lmao.
As for "being an engineer", I meant it specifically in the kind of approach I was suggesting. The concept of starting from a known point of human civilisation and tracking every invention from then and how it would shape the culture and future innovation eventually resulting in a drastically different world. This is based on the fundamental understanding that innovation is driven by demand and priority. Wars and conflict escalate technology. Global catastrophes, financial collapses, and industry "fads" and conventions. Some new technology we have known about for years but never been able to put into to practice may become possible from a fictional technological leap. In the same way technology that we take for granted may never be pursued simply because there is no need or demand. That's the way an engineer would build a world.

So, applying it to Mahouka, i understand you want CADs to be fleshed out not just in terms of how they work, but also in terms of what demands resulted in appearance of that tech, how it is supplied etc.
The closest point of contrast that we have is still World Trigger. Would you say World Trigger did enough to show off the "engineering" of its trigger tech? If so, which specific moments sold you on WT's engineering?
I don't think WT is a good example simply because the time frame that this new technology has been around is far, far less, and Border hoards that technology - it hasn't really made its way into civilian life as of yet. If we were to take a technologically revolutionary perspective over the large time-frame of Mahouka's segway from the world we know, it would likely become almost completely irreconcilable. And so in a sense there may have been a conscious choice to refrain from that in order to keep the audience/readers with a gateway into the mahouka world by giving them something familiar.

But going back to WT, what sold me on the system was how it had a base linear power system, but also a nonlinear realistic base power system where training, improvisation, and raw talent all come into play to create a world that feels like anything could happen. Anyone could fail and anyone could succeed. A world that doesn't depend on raw stats to decide outcomes feels unique and tangible, but also giving us points of comparison so that we can still understand when something other than stats are being used. The limits of incorporating alien technology into human technology was also acknowledged in an intelligent way. The human triggers are massively limited, and so what makes humanity so successful is their more modernised approach to combat and training, whereas the neighbours still work in clans and caste systems that focus on individual training rather than industrial mass production style training combined with a merit-based promotion system. Humanity has training regimes that are designed with cooperation in mind. Everyone learning from one another. Meanwhile the Neighbours restrict their training to specific castes and clans in order to ensure supremacy against rival clans - this hording of talent sometimes being vital to their very continued existence. The fact that the power system is so naturally incorporated into the world is an impressive feat.

indeed. Some cool concepts are made possible within the different technological and cultural climate of mahouka.

When i think of a modern ninja, i still think of a guy in military wear. What is it specificially about ninjas that we want to keep over the military? Also, where there are ninjas, there also must be samurai. Wouldn't you say that the military guys could fit the role of the modern samurai quite nicely?[/quote]I guess you could think of Samurai as SAS or Navy Seal style units trained in a very specific way and selected from a young age.
As for Ninjas, it'd be hard to say. IRL they weren't really combatants. They're more spies and terrorists. I guess you could think "generic ninja combined with James Bond" and that'd give a very basic idea of what the concept might look like.
 
Sep 12, 2021 1:07 PM

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It was to be expected that the spin-off would skip the match between Tatsuya and the Crimson Prince, apart from the finishing move, since this isn't from Tatsuya's POV. Aside from that, this episode was enjoyable, especially when we get to see Honoka's butt getting grabbed out of nowhere! =P

It was satisfying to see how the girls, with assistance from the trio from Third High, made sure that the sabotages were prevented and they had their fair share of the action.

With that out of the way, we can move on to Miyuki's turn at the Mirage Bat contest. I want to see her in that cute outfit of hers already. =3
 
 
Sep 12, 2021 2:04 PM

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The given information made sense, and simultaneously didn't. A large scale magic had been engaged, yet even the masterclass magic users there didn't recognise????, which gave me mixed receptions of the actions from the girls. I really want to question the original creators about this matter, whether they had run out of idea and the result was this nonsensical piece. Nevertheless, at least we could see how the harem cared for the MC.

My prediction of the end didn't age well, as there is too little time left. We have to settle with
Hope they do it well.
Modified by SgtBaitMan, Sep 13, 2021 8:03 AM
Location: Strawberry Fields, Graceland.
Help! I need somebody. Help! Not just anybody. Help! You know I need someone. Helppp!
 
Sep 12, 2021 2:42 PM

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What's up with every show going wildly off model this week?

Also text at 12:07 is in Russian for some reason, it even vaguely makes sense.
 
Sep 12, 2021 3:45 PM
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theGodde said:
In the end it's just that one decision that had poorly reflected in the show. I feel it's inconsiderate to blame that solely on the producers.

Who did you think make the decision if not the anime producers, the whole staff involved in the production of the anime? Anime producers can do so much more than you realize. It's pretty ease to notice once you start reading series with only decent popularity but great anime adaptations.

The reason why writers look down on overpowered protagonists is because this inherent nature makes it impossible for them to truly...

Mahouka doesn’t have the issue you’re talking about, so there’s no point in mentioning it here. The problem with your understanding is that Tatsuya wasn’t an inherently overpowered person. That honor goes to his “truly” overpowered sister. You think Tatsuya is overpowered? Yeah, it’s true in a way, but then people like Miyuki, Ninja guy, their family head, etc. are also overpowered in their own way. Not to mention, the reason he even became as overpowered as he does, is because of his intelligence and character development that he experienced when he was younger. If someone else was born with the same abilities as him, there’s a pretty good chance that they’d be only a mid-tier individual at best. He’s an expert at making others utilize their abilities to the best extent, as you can see from the Nine Schools Competition, so it goes without saying that he did the same to make himself as strong as he is now. Moreover, Tatsuya isn’t overpowered just because the author wanted to have a really strong character, but also because the story itself won’t exist if he didn’t have the potential to be so overpowered. His power literally makes the story move forward. So the overpowered protagonist here doesn’t make the story structure “low brow”.

The only reason you don’t realize the things I mentioned is because of the extremely flawed anime adaptations. It once again proves my point that it’s impossible to make an informed opinion about the series as a whole, as the “information” required to be able to make such an opinion is lacking in the first place. You really need to keep your criticism to the anime adaptations after all.

Consider this as well - perhaps I have experienced a wider variety of stories and therefore don't find the 9 schools unorthodox. Or perhaps I have a very different definition for what an "unorthodox" story is? We're never going to know unless you explain how you believe that 9 schools is unorthodox.

As someone who has most likely read more Japanese stuff than you, I can tell you that it’s at least “unorthodox” for a series from Japan if you have any idea about their culture and usual storytelling. Also, even if you have a different definition for “unorthodox”, it won’t change the fact that it is actually “unorthodox”.

Let’s talk about the Nine Schools Competition that I mentioned. 1) The protagonist doesn’t belong to a minor or former champion school that is trying to attain glory on a national level. Instead, you got a school that is the strongest one out there 2) The participants don’t have a blood-boiling goal to become the best in the country in the event they’re participating or in their field of expertise, and instead multiple of them are already elites at world-level 3) The protagonist side isn’t the one showing sportsmanship and suffering from cheating maneuvers of other schools. Instead, they’re the ones tricking the other schools with various “plays”, despite the fact that they’re already the “strongest” and have won two Nine School Competitions consecutively in the past two years. Basically, various major clichés are avoided one after another.

I think that’s enough to show how just the Nine Schools Competition alone is “unorthodox”. As a bonus, let me tell you that Miyuki is also an “unorthodox” bro-con, unlike what you’d think from watching the anime. Skipping volumes and making her many of her thoughts, opinions, and conversations non-existent ended up hiding her true personality from the anime-only viewers, just as is the case with most other characters. Many readers were taken aback when they first read a certain arc.

Now going back to the overpowered stuff, I can provide many examples of where Tatsuya is able to effortlessly overcome problems presented to him by the story.

Remember, you specifically mentioned that he is able to overcome “all” problems “effortlessly”. Now, an LN reader would immediately notice how you’re wrong.

1.He wins his fights because he has been training and improving himself since he was really young. His training was so harsh and deadly that most people can't even consider doing the same things. Being predictable isn’t a negative thing here because it’d be unreasonable and ridiculous otherwise. After all, the people you see him winning are mostly low-tier individuals. You wanting an unpredictable fight between superman and your neighbor would be nonsensical, right? Moreover, in the anime, he has only faced three high-tiered individuals. First time, he had magic compatibility advantage, second time, he survived because the opponent wasn’t mentally fit to serve in their role, and it was literally mentioned that he could have died if the opponent didn’t hesitate. Third time, he managed to defeat the opponent only because of his sister and some help from his friends.

It can’t be more obvious that you’re just misinterpreting things. Though again, it’s mainly the fault of the anime that leaves out too much information. This, once again, proves that you really, really can’t judge the series based on the anime.

2.He has never set out to do something and failed precisely because he never tries to do anything that he’s unable to. Simple as that. It’s like hoping for someone very proficient in mathematics to make an error in solving the same problems that they’ve practiced to solve perfectly any time. The chances for your wish to be realized would naturally be very, very low in such a case. You might not get the impression from watching the anime, but he’s a very practical guy who ignores everything that is out of his reach, unless something forces him to get involved. Remember how he mentioned that he didn’t pursue the parasite, despite realizing their threat, just so that his normal life is not influenced? Yeah, even the anime showed a glimpse into this side of him. Not to mention, he failed to deal with the parasite during his first confrontation with it, and literally stated how it was a disgrace for him. He failed precisely because he tried to deal with something he wasn’t prepared to handle. His preparations have been the reason behind his success in his endeavors after all.

3.Tatsuya defeating someone doesn’t result as a change of heart for others. You just never saw or learned about their positive side, so it causes you to misinterpret things. What really affected their way of thinking "a bit" is his performance during various occasions. For example, the first guy who supposedly had a change of heart according to you, keeps having a negative opinion of him and finds his existence as annoying as before. The only reason he supported his participation in the competition was because of his loyalty to the Student Council President and to his school, as he’s a really serious guy who knows how to make the right choice for the greater good. The reason behind his earlier opposition was because of the fact that Course 2 students are genuinely unfit for the role in the disciplinary committee. The speed of magic activation makes it nearly impossible for Course 2 students to deal with the troubles caused by Course 1 students. It was also mentioned later on that the reason why he was so harsh on Course 2 students was also because of the mental stress and frustration caused by the antics of the Student Council President. It was an actual issue that the Disciplinary Committee chief was thinking of seriously but couldn’t do anything about, because of their friendship and the Student Council President’s family situation. So as you can see, him beating them physically is hardly the reason for their change of heart, and it isn’t even changed that much anyway.

Once again, the immense lack of information in the anime leads you to misinterpret things, and proves my point that you should limit your criticism to the anime.

another interesting note might be this video

Saw the video expecting I’m going to see something worthwhile, but it turned out that the guy’s just mentioning his interpretation of things that are based on the extremely flawed anime alone. And guess what? I already agree with such opinions since long ago. However, it doesn’t change the fact that his opinions are only true for the anime.

What am I supposed to judge them from then?

You see, that’s the issue that you deliberately ignored to push your argument forward, even when I already showed you how the anime is making significant things in the LN nonexistent in the adaptation. I’ve already mentioned that the anime only shows the surface-level things, so you can’t notice their true character from that alone. Let me give you a simple example in any case. Mikihiko, the nice guy that appears the most normal out of the bunch, might have “violated” Mizuki to achieve his goal if he came across her a year earlier than his enrollment in the school. It should be enough to show you how these people are “morally grey”.

I'm not unqualified to judge it, you are merely unable to critically analyse my statements or your own.

It's not just a simple matter of your ability to begin with. Yes, you’re naturally unqualified to judge it when you don’t even have enough information to do so, or when you find fault in other things without even confirming whether what you remember is right. You misremembering things isn’t good enough to be an excuse if you use the very points you misremember as a solid criticism here.

Although the finer details were screwed over, the overarching plot details seem to me to be faithful to the LN and therefore worthy of criticism for both mediums of the story.

I mentioned that you’re wrong about “overarching plot details being faithful in the anime”. People don’t even get the opportunity to understand the Yotsuba well enough in the anime, so it’s literally impossible for what you said to be true. Furthermore, the anime has also skipped a very important volume. Information about the Yotsuba and the story shown in the said volume provide critical details about the overarching plot, so the transition isn’t really faithful as you claimed.

As for bias, please...

I’d honestly not care about your bias if it wasn’t so obvious. You literally see, interpret, misremember, and assume things in a way that’s convenient for your arguments, over and over again, so it’s practically unavoidable to bring up your heavy bias that you admitted to yourself.

But there is no such thing as a virtual wave in programming.

Whoever said that virtual wave is a thing in programming? I mentioned it because programming is used in the spell to generate virtual waves.

In what way is a virtual wave different to a...

Virtual waves don’t change anything on their own, but are used as a medium to trigger some kind of vibration in the target. Virtual waves are based on information manipulation, while real waves are based on physics manipulation. Virtual waves don’t contradict anything because they themselves aren’t causing any change to the target, and only serve as a means for the programmed magic. Since data reinforcement doesn’t prevent from non-magical changes, or magic that’s not applied on the target directly, it can’t prevent a virtual wave from becoming real, as the change is happening to the virtual wave itself. Again, since the programmed vibration affects the target as a real/natural vibration, it can’t be stopped by data reinforcement.
I also mentioned that magic is a process of overwriting reality previously, so I naturally expected you to get that the change mentioned there is brought about by magic. Guess it’s my fault for not mentioning the same basic things again that you should be clear about by now. It really makes me wonder how you even considered criticizing the magic system when you’re not much better than a novice when it comes to Mahouka’s magic system. (thanks to the anime, of course)

Now if you consider the fact that you can create anything...

Not everything can be created virtually, similar to how being able to manipulate something doesn’t mean you can do “anything” with it. Everything requires enough talent, magic power, and appropriate spells. Shiori’s processing ability is extremely outstanding, so using such means in a really limited way is obviously no issue for her. I don’t remember the details about it, or I’d have given you an even better explanation.

This is all semantics, but it is interesting semantics. Although considering the overwhelming information disparity between us I'd forgive you for being frustrated or annoyed at my lack of knowledge.

No kidding, it's like I'm giving you free lessons on Mahouka. Most people would be frustrated when they have to tell you so many things, just to give you a basic understanding of them. However, as the anime is a major reason behind your utter ignorance, it really can’t be helped. It only goes to show how much the anime adaptation lacks compared to the source material. I’ll be repeating myself, but it couldn’t be more obvious that it's truly ridiculous to form your opinion on this series as a whole by watching the anime alone.

I am still not so sure. You...

Well, as a LN reader it’s pretty obvious to me, but I get why an anime-only might have their doubts. (though having doubts and stubbornly sticking to one’s views due to some questionable "reason" are two very different things)
The anime is extremely inferior to the source material, much more than a usual anime adaptation is, due to the tremendous amount of missing information, details, etc. So, one might find it hard to believe that an anime adaptation made with the wrong ideas and questionable intentions could end up becoming so lacking compared to the source material.

Modified by Symons1m, Sep 12, 2021 4:30 PM
 
 
Sep 13, 2021 1:24 AM
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Symons1m said:
theGodde said:
In the end it's just that one decision that had poorly reflected in the show. I feel it's inconsiderate to blame that solely on the producers.

Who did you think make the decision if not the anime producers, the whole staff involved in the production of the anime? Anime producers can do so much more than you realize. It's pretty ease to notice once you start reading series with only decent popularity but great anime adaptations.
Yes the producers had the final say but that doesn't mean they made that particular decision. I know just how powerful anime producers are, and how they are far more directly involved than live action producers, who usually exist as a detached entity that randomly restricts and dictates the hardworking directors' efforts with no real logical basis or reason.
That said, since the producers are directly involved, it's harder to pin down which decisions are theirs - in live action you can physically see producer interference because it doesn't feel natural within the show. I personally don't like the idea of having an involved producer - you end up getting a frankenstein vision of the director and the producer rather than the singular strong vision of a talented director. However a cohesive team who is all on the same page operating from the same vision will be more effective than a single talented director who is lording above everyone, so each have their advantages.

Symons1m said:
The reason why writers look down on overpowered protagonists is because this inherent nature makes it impossible for them to truly...

Mahouka doesn’t have the issue you’re talking about, so there’s no point in mentioning it here. The problem with your understanding is that Tatsuya wasn’t an inherently overpowered person. That honor goes to his “truly” overpowered sister. You think Tatsuya is overpowered? Yeah, it’s true in a way, but then people like Miyuki, Ninja guy, their family head, etc. are also overpowered in their own way. Not to mention, the reason he even became as overpowered as he does, is because of his intelligence and character development that he experienced when he was younger. If someone else was born with the same abilities as him, there’s a pretty good chance that they’d be only a mid-tier individual at best. He’s an expert at making others utilize their abilities to the best extent, as you can see from the Nine Schools Competition, so it goes without saying that he did the same to make himself as strong as he is now. Moreover, Tatsuya isn’t overpowered just because the author wanted to have a really strong character, but also because the story itself won’t exist if he didn’t have the potential to be so overpowered. His power literally makes the story move forward. So the overpowered protagonist here doesn’t make the story structure “low brow”.

The only reason you don’t realize the things I mentioned is because of the extremely flawed anime adaptations. It once again proves my point that it’s impossible to make an informed opinion about the series as a whole, as the “information” required to be able to make such an opinion is lacking in the first place. You really need to keep your criticism to the anime adaptations after all.
The problem you are experiencing here is that you are viewing character development from within the limits of the story. Is Saitama less overpowered because he trained really hard offscreen to get there?
The story covered by the anime adaptation so far occurs after his character development. I would agree that if Tatsuya started as a fairly normal person and became who he is now, that particular story covering his transformation might have a Tatsuya who is not overpowered. However that is not the story we are discussing now, we are discussing the anime adaptation and the volumes it is adapting from the LN. In these stories Tatsuya is overpowered. You even admitted "Yeah, it's true in a way" after you said "Mahouka doesn't have the issue you're talking about".

Now it makes a lot of sense that you are unable to comprehend the sheer extent to which Tatsuya is overpowered, if you consider that it is necessary for the story. I would however disagree with even this. Consider the fact that all of the stories thus far begin outside of Tatsuya. Blanche is attempting to provoke the inequality in the school and that is driving the story. The 9 schools competition would have occurred with or without Tatsuya, and the crime gang that was rigging it would have done so with or without him. The Chinese spies/terrorists would have broken into the school even if Tatsuya hadn't of submitted valuable research documents into it. The stars would have pursued the parasite into Japan and come into contact with the clans through Mayumi and other members even if Tatsuya wasn't there. Yes, Tatsuya is driving the story, however that doesn't mean he is indispensable for the story. Anyone could have replaced his individual actions and the story would still have progressed just fine. Please try to understand my perspective and why I am questioning all your statements rather than taking them at face value. I'm not some unperceiving fool, I simply don't like taking things at face value - and in this case I think I've made my point.

Symons1m said:
Consider this as well - perhaps I have experienced a wider variety of stories and therefore don't find the 9 schools unorthodox. Or perhaps I have a very different definition for what an "unorthodox" story is? We're never going to know unless you explain how you believe that 9 schools is unorthodox.
As someone who has most likely read more Japanese stuff than you, I can tell you that it’s at least “unorthodox” for a series from Japan if you have any idea about their culture and usual storytelling. Also, even if you have a different definition for “unorthodox”, it won’t change the fact that it is actually “unorthodox”.

Let’s talk about the Nine Schools Competition that I mentioned. 1) The protagonist doesn’t belong to a minor or former champion school that is trying to attain glory on a national level. Instead, you got a school that is the strongest one out there 2) The participants don’t have a blood-boiling goal to become the best in the country in the event they’re participating or in their field of expertise, and instead multiple of them are already elites at world-level 3) The protagonist side isn’t the one showing sportsmanship and suffering from cheating maneuvers of other schools. Instead, they’re the ones tricking the other schools with various “plays”, despite the fact that they’re already the “strongest” and have won two Nine School Competitions consecutively in the past two years. Basically, various major clichés are avoided one after another.

I think that’s enough to show how just the Nine Schools Competition alone is “unorthodox”. As a bonus, let me tell you that Miyuki is also an “unorthodox” bro-con, unlike what you’d think from watching the anime. Skipping volumes and making her many of her thoughts, opinions, and conversations non-existent ended up hiding her true personality from the anime-only viewers, just as is the case with most other characters. Many readers were taken aback when they first read a certain arc.
After speaking to both you and malMaxi I will cede that Miyuki is an unorthodox character. She certainly isn't in the anime, but the descriptions of her from the LN paint her as a very original and unique character.

That said, I would contest your claim the 9 schools is unorthodox simply because it doesn't use specific cliches. Being different =/= not being cliche. Just because you don't use cliches doesn't make you unorthodox. I would say that "returning champions" is also a common sports storyline. And the way in was handled in order to handicap the returning champions with sabotage is pretty common with this kind of story arc (it's the most uncreative way to go about it, but it makes sense considering we don't have time to set up each sportsperson's strengths and weaknesses).
Also having Tatsuya essentially function as a "magic coach" and indirectly winning through other characters is also a common sports trope. There's a lot of stories that explore a character indirectly through the actions of another. Take the Mighty Ducks as an iconic sports movie in the west - the protagonist is the coach. I would also assume that all the sportswomen have goals and arcs that are resolved during/through the competition. Overall it's pretty conventional. I dunno how many sports anime/manga/LNs you've read, but this is pretty normal stuff to me. The only significant differences would be how it blends a detective story with the main sports story, and how Tatsuya is both a "coach" figure and later becomes a player. I wouldn't exactly call genre blending unconventional, but it's certainly not cliche.
If you've got any other examples from within the LN story covered by the anime, chances are they will go the same way.

Symons1m said:
Now going back to the overpowered stuff, I can provide many examples of where Tatsuya is able to effortlessly overcome problems presented to him by the story.

Remember, you specifically mentioned that he is able to overcome “all” problems “effortlessly”. Now, an LN reader would immediately notice how you’re wrong.

1.He wins his fights because he has been training and improving himself since he was really young. His training was so harsh and deadly that most people can't even consider doing the same things. Being predictable isn’t a negative thing here because it’d be unreasonable and ridiculous otherwise. After all, the people you see him winning are mostly low-tier individuals. You wanting an unpredictable fight between superman and your neighbor would be nonsensical, right? Moreover, in the anime, he has only faced three high-tiered individuals. First time, he had magic compatibility advantage, second time, he survived because the opponent wasn’t mentally fit to serve in their role, and it was literally mentioned that he could have died if the opponent didn’t hesitate. Third time, he managed to defeat the opponent only because of his sister and some help from his friends.
Now this is where your limited understanding of story conventions come into play once again.
First of all, Tatsuya is already OP by the beginning of the story. We aren't shown his origin training/journey and even if we were, he would only be a balanced protagonist during that journey. Once he completed that journey he would then be OP from there on out. Just like how Naruto is OP during the story of his son Boruto because most of the enemies they face cannot withstand Naruto's godlike power earned through the ridiculous power scaling of shippuden. Naruto is not somehow balanced because he went through that journey, he is still OP in Boruto.
Being predictable in fight outcomes is almost always negative. One Punch Man exists solely to make fun of that.
But the fact that you still believe this despite my long explanation of how to avoid this issue does irritate me.
Since Tatsuya is so powerful and therefore cannot lose for the entire series being shown so far, there is an inherent problem with the tension. Only a gullible audience could believe that Tatsuya could ever lose the upper hand against an opponent so many magnitudes weaker than him. In fact, considering his abilities it brings up the question of whether it's even possible for him to truly lose. However that doesn't mean that the fight cannot have tension.
This goes back to the stakes - if you have stakes that are not necessarily based on the direct outcome of the fight (ie: physically defeating the opponent) but instead on HOW they go about winning, suddenly this brings tension back. Let's say Tatsuya can't just beat him, but has to beat him while not allowing his opponent to know the true extent of his power, because then his identity is revealed. This not only gives Tatsuya another stake in the fight - protecting his secret identity - but also makes the fight challenging for even Tatsuya.
I would say that is is entirely possible for superman to have an unpredictable fight against a regular unpowered human. Lex Luthor is superman's arch nemesis, is unpowered, and rarely fights Superman hand-to-hand.

As for the 3 people you mentioned, I'm not sure if you knew, but I was specifically mentioning only the story covered by the anime. Anything beyond that I am not taking into consideration. Therefore I think I can identify 2/3 of those people, so it would be appreciated if you could specify who they are as then I could adequately explain to you how their fights lacked tension/the correct setup to make Tatsuya struggle/be presented as capable of loosing. But I'm assuming you're referring to the guy from third high who he duels during the 9 schools arc as the one who Tatsuya won thanks to a compatibility advantage, and the leader of the stars as the one who wasn't in her right mind but could have beat Tatsuya if she was more resilient and better trained. I'll respond to them if you confirm, as I have learnt that my assumptions can often be wrong.
There's no viable excuse for why Tatsuya hasn't been properly challenged. Like I said before, there are ways to make Tatsuya struggle in a fight without reducing the power gap between him and his foes.

Symons1m said:
2.He has never set out to do something and failed precisely because he never tries to do anything that he’s unable to. Simple as that. It’s like hoping for someone very proficient in mathematics to make an error in solving the same problems that they’ve practiced to solve perfectly any time. The chances for your wish to be realized would naturally be very, very low in such a case. You might not get the impression from watching the anime, but he’s a very practical guy who ignores everything that is out of his reach, unless something forces him to get involved. Remember how he mentioned that he didn’t pursue the parasite, despite realizing their threat, just so that his normal life is not influenced? Yeah, even the anime showed a glimpse into this side of him. Not to mention, he failed to deal with the parasite during his first confrontation with it, and literally stated how it was a disgrace for him. He failed precisely because he tried to deal with something he wasn’t prepared to handle. His preparations have been the reason behind his success in his endeavours after all.
That isn't an excuse. Once again you are thinking within the constraints of the world. Every story beat, every world building element, is a choice made by the author. If the author chose to write Tatsuya in a way that he never challenges himself, that is patently bad writing. But even then the story could present him with more situations where he has no choice but to overextend and challenge himself. Yet it does not. Why would a skilled mathematician only attempts equations they are already comfortable with? If you follow that career it's because you want to challenge yourself. And in the same way when you watch a series, you want to see a protagonist who is challenged, because it is always more satisfying when they eventually succeed despite that.

Symons1m said:
3.Tatsuya defeating someone doesn’t result as a change of heart for others. You just never saw or learned about their positive side, so it causes you to misinterpret things. What really affected their way of thinking "a bit" is his performance during various occasions. For example, the first guy who supposedly had a change of heart according to you, keeps having a negative opinion of him and finds his existence as annoying as before. The only reason he supported his participation in the competition was because of his loyalty to the Student Council President and to his school, as he’s a really serious guy who knows how to make the right choice for the greater good. The reason behind his earlier opposition was because of the fact that Course 2 students are genuinely unfit for the role in the disciplinary committee. The speed of magic activation makes it nearly impossible for Course 2 students to deal with the troubles caused by Course 1 students. It was also mentioned later on that the reason why he was so harsh on Course 2 students was also because of the mental stress and frustration caused by the antics of the Student Council President. It was an actual issue that the Disciplinary Committee chief was thinking of seriously but couldn’t do anything about, because of their friendship and the Student Council President’s family situation. So as you can see, him beating them physically is hardly the reason for their change of heart, and it isn’t even changed that much anyway.
I am not a toxic contrarian. Here you have presented a pretty compelling case. I can see this being totally feasible considering he just doesn't really say/do anything after the fight in the anime.

Symons1m said:
What am I supposed to judge them from then?

You see, that’s the issue that you deliberately ignored to push your argument forward, even when I already showed you how the anime is making significant things in the LN nonexistent in the adaptation. I’ve already mentioned that the anime only shows the surface-level things, so you can’t notice their true character from that alone. Let me give you a simple example in any case. Mikihiko, the nice guy that appears the most normal out of the bunch, might have “violated” Mizuki to achieve his goal if he came across her a year earlier than his enrollment in the school. It should be enough to show you how these people are “morally grey”.
I'm not unqualified to judge it, you are merely unable to critically analyse my statements or your own.

It's not just a simple matter of your ability to begin with. Yes, you’re naturally unqualified to judge it when you don’t even have enough information to do so, or when you find fault in other things without even confirming whether what you remember is right. You misremembering things isn’t good enough to be an excuse if you use the very points you misremember as a solid criticism here.
The process by which we are conducting this conversation will inevitably lead to this kinds of mistakes. My very limited knowledge of the LNs and your limited understanding of story structure and writing conventions have both led to their share of poorly founded arguments. But I would disagree that there can be no progress or common consensus because of it.

Now coming back to the conversation at hand, what you have described is certainly an improvement over the anime, however that isn't true "morally greyness" in terms of a functional story. I would define a morally grey character as a character that actively makes "morally good" and "morally bad" decisions during the runtime of the show. They could also make decisions that are "morally ambiguous". However simply having done morally grey things in that characters' backstory does not make them morally grey. That said, the story itself can be morally grey if it takes us back and examines the character during that point in time.
A good example of this is Trigun. Vash the Stampede is not morally grey at the beginning of the story. He is a completely morally pure character. When his violent backstory is revealed, that does not retroactively make him morally grey, because his previous actions were still entirely morally pure. However that does makes any era of the character's life where they committed these acts morally grey.

Symons1m said:
Although the finer details were screwed over, the overarching plot details seem to me to be faithful to the LN and therefore worthy of criticism for both mediums of the story.

I mentioned that you’re wrong about “overarching plot details being faithful in the anime”. People don’t even get the opportunity to understand the Yotsuba well enough in the anime, so it’s literally impossible for what you said to be true. Furthermore, the anime has also skipped a very important volume. Information about the Yotsuba and the story shown in the said volume provide critical details about the overarching plot, so the transition isn’t really faithful as you claimed.
I appreciate you showing examples in order to prove your point, but I'm not quite sure if you understand what I'm saying.
So far, every single piece of evidence you have pointed out has accurately revealed that the anime is missing a lot of information, some of it very important. But you have not yet provided any proof that what aspects of the overarching plot that actually are there happen to be incorrect or inaccurate.

Symons1m said:
As for bias, please...
I’d honestly not care about your bias if it wasn’t so obvious. You literally see, interpret, misremember, and assume things in a way that’s convenient for your arguments, over and over again, so it’s practically unavoidable to bring up your heavy bias that you admitted to yourself.
How about this. I haven't heard a single criticism of the LNs from you. You have never admitted a single flaw that it contains. It's not the fact that you're unable to spot flaws in the LN, but the fact that you intentionally frame every discussion as if the LN is a perfect flawless work of art that presents a clear, obvious bias.
That's why this bias catcalling is so dumb. Even if you haven't noticed it, I have, and that's why I constantly question you every time you make an unsupported statement. What matters here isn't that we need to accuse one another of bias in a series of immature bickering, but that we are both aware of it and can filter it out of our statements to obtain a closer, more accurate picture of the subject matter. If we were both fans then this conversation wouldn't nearly be as diverse and in-depth as it is, and if we were both critics then our conversations would turn out just like malMaxi's and mine, where we end up with an incomplete view of the anime and LNs.

Symons1m said:
But there is no such thing as a virtual wave in programming.

Whoever said that virtual wave is a thing in programming? I mentioned it because programming is used in the spell to generate virtual waves.
When I said that virtual waves make no sense, you only replied with
Yeah, I deliberately made a clear distinction between the two, so that you'd realize your mistake. I hope I don’t need to tell you how programming works, right?
You intentionally insulted my comprehension and intelligence and now you've realised that in doing so you massively oversimplified your argument to the point where it was misleading and bordering incorrect. You never mentioned that virtual waves are generated through programming based spells. You legit said in more refined terms "hurr durr do you even program bruh?"

Symons1m said:
In what way is a virtual wave different to a...

Virtual waves don’t change anything on their own, but are used as a medium to trigger some kind of vibration in the target. Virtual waves are based on information manipulation, while real waves are based on physics manipulation. Virtual waves don’t contradict anything because they themselves aren’t causing any change to the target, and only serve as a means for the programmed magic. Since data reinforcement doesn’t prevent from non-magical changes, or magic that’s not applied on the target directly, it can’t prevent a virtual wave from becoming real, as the change is happening to the virtual wave itself. Again, since the programmed vibration affects the target as a real/natural vibration, it can’t be stopped by data reinforcement.
I also mentioned that magic is a process of overwriting reality previously, so I naturally expected you to get that the change mentioned there is brought about by magic. Guess it’s my fault for not mentioning the same basic things again that you should be clear about by now. It really makes me wonder how you even considered criticizing the magic system when you’re not much better than a novice when it comes to Mahouka’s magic system. (thanks to the anime, of course)
There's no point responding to this when malMaxi already came up with a far better criticism of virtual waves than I could provide.
However saying that "magic overwrites reality" is about as specific as the statement "the laws of physics govern reality", and doesn't mean someone will instantly comprehend all the laws of physics.

Symons1m said:
Now if you consider the fact that you can create anything...

Not everything can be created virtually, similar to how being able to manipulate something doesn’t mean you can do “anything” with it. Everything requires enough talent, magic power, and appropriate spells. Shiori’s processing ability is extremely outstanding, so using such means in a really limited way is obviously no issue for her. I don’t remember the details about it, or I’d have given you an even better explanation.
thanks for trying to explain it even if you couldn't figure out all the specific details.

Symons1m said:
I am still not so sure. You...

Well, as a LN reader it’s pretty obvious to me, but I get why an anime-only might have their doubts. (though having doubts and stubbornly sticking to one’s views due to some questionable "reason" are two very different things)
The anime is extremely inferior to the source material, much more than a usual anime adaptation is, due to the tremendous amount of missing information, details, etc. So, one might find it hard to believe that an anime adaptation made with the wrong ideas and questionable intentions could end up becoming so lacking compared to the source material.
I have witnessed some adaptations that transcend even Mahouka. The latest Disney Artemis Fowl live action adaptation being the absolute worst adaptation of a story I have ever witnessed. It's a dumpster fire beyond dumpster fires. Mahouka is certainly bad. However it's at the point where it's still enjoyable to a lot of people, and does follow the original story. Perhaps because of the lack of anime that ever try and rewrite their source material (an absence that is a good thing for the fans), you may not realise just how much of the source material actually is retained in the anime.
 
Sep 13, 2021 2:09 AM

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At least it ended good for class 1 xD
 
Sep 13, 2021 8:44 AM
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theGodde said:
"Yeah, it's true in a way" after you said "Mahouka doesn't have the issue you're talking about".

You’re deliberately misinterpreting things, right? Because you want our discussion to drag on and on? (as also hinted by a part of your previous reply)
If not, please excuse me, but you’re likely suffering from an issue that has something to do with selective perception. It was obvious that I was talking about the issues you related with having an overpowered protagonist, instead of stating that Mahouka doesn’t have an overpowered protagonist. In fact, it couldn't be more obvious considering what I mentioned there.
I mean, no one in their right mind would deny it, let alone an LN reader like me.

The story covered by the anime adaptation so far occurs after his character development. I would agree that if Tatsuya started as a fairly normal person and became who he is now, that particular story covering his transformation might have a Tatsuya who is not overpowered. However that is not the story we are discussing now, we are discussing the anime adaptation and the volumes it is adapting from the LN.

And I've already agreed that the anime has its problems. The main issue is that you can't use it alone as the basis to judge the original story, and I've given you multiple examples to prove the point as well. How something so simple is difficult for you to understand is beyond me. I welcome your constructive criticism about the anime, but not your ill-informed opinions on the series as a whole for reasons that should be pretty obvious at this point.

Now it makes a lot of sense that you are unable to comprehend the sheer extent to which Tatsuya is overpowered.

It's funny that an anime-only, who literally admitted that he lacks knowledge from the LN, is trying to claim that I’m unable to comprehend the sheer extent to which Tatsuya is overpowered. Please stop believing that your personal assumptions are truer than the knowledge from the LN.

I would however disagree with even this. Consider the fact that all of the stories thus far begin outside of Tatsuya.

Of course, you'd disagree, no surprises there. This is what happens when you only base your opinions on what you get to see in the anime. Yes, the things like the blanche incident and terrorists attack would have still happened, but it’d be no different from the previous invasions (which happened in the past) that are not driving the “actual” story and instead only adding more to the background information and setting of the world in Mahouka. Moreover, the Stars wouldn’t have come to Japan pursuing parasites because Tatsuya is literally the reason parasites even appeared, and they’re very critical to the story. Your lack of understanding about such things shows once again here. The very fact that the appearance of parasites only happened because of him alone is enough to prove that he is indispensable to the story. Also, no. No one else could have replaced his individual action that caused parasites to appear. Someone like Tatsuya would have to exist for it to happen, which is the very definition of being indispensable. What we're seeing, is the story from the perspective of the said person as he just happened to also be labeled as the protagonist. It's likely because the author wanted to challenge themselves by writing a story about people that don't follow the norms, as implied by their own words, instead of using the extremely overused trope of "weak to strong" that is present in most Japanese series since long, long ago. MCs being as overpowered as Tatsuya, from the very first volume of the series, was something very rare for a LN from 2000s after all.

Of course, doing something different than usual would naturally invite criticisms from those with inflexible mindset, and such is the case with you it seems.

I simply don't like taking things at face value - and in this case I think I've made my point.

If you don’t like taking things at face value, you should at least stop relying on the anime to make your self-convinced claims. The most you can do is ask questions related to your doubts, and not outright criticize things based on what you saw in something that has been repeatedly mentioned and proved to be extremely flawed.

If you've got any other examples from within the LN story covered by the anime, chances are they will go the same way.

First of all, to claim that something isn't unorthodox, you'd have to compare other series from Japan at the time (2000s). It's only natural that with time, many things that weren't or aren't common enough to be called a trope will become part of common tropes sooner or later. As such, you can't deny the validity of what I said without any factual proof that shows that the said tropes were also commonly used back then in Japanese series.
I’m well aware of the tropes you mentioned, and I never claimed that it doesn’t use any tropes at all (as it's nearly impossible at this point when so many things are treated as tropes). I was mainly talking about the mixture of all the three things I mentioned (that is, a tournament with all of the three things combined), instead of looking at them individually, as it’s very obvious that you’d find them in many series separately. In case it wasn't clear for you, I hope you get my point now. If you can prove that the mixture of the three things is not “unorthodox” for a Japanese series, go ahead and prove it. Unless you do so, my point still remains true that the combination of the tropes present in the Nine Schools Competition is “unorthodox”, even now. I don’t need to mention anything else if you don’t even have any basis to deny the validity of my very first example.

First of all, Tatsuya is already OP by the beginning of the story. We aren't shown his origin training/journey and even if we were, he would only be a balanced protagonist during that journey.

Alright, I've seen enough to get that you simply dislike the concept of OP protagonists itself, if you aren't only using it as an excuse here.
Getting back to the point, it’s ridiculous how you’re trying to claim that becoming really strong due to hard work, efforts, and potential is a still a negative thing, just because the series doesn't continue to satisfy your wish to watch a trope that has been used way, way more than the OP protagonist one. You’re trying to claim that power is the only way to determine whether a character is balanced, which is simply nonsense. So long as the protagonist is restricted in some way that disallows him from using his powers freely, and he keeps striving to improve and challenge himself in one way or another, he still remains a balanced protagonist, no matter how OP he is. If you didn't notice what I mentioned in the previous sentence, I don't need to tell you the obvious reason, right? I'm really getting fed up of telling you the same thing repeatedly, all because you just don't want to give up on the negativity you have for the series.

Being predictable in fight outcomes is almost always negative.

Just your subjective opinion, as many people clearly think otherwise, so no need to talk about it. Some people consider it a negative thing, some people consider it a positive thing, and some people enjoy both predictable and non-predictable fights. It all depends on an individual, so while it might close to a fact to you, it isn't so for others.

But the fact that you still believe this despite my long explanation of how to avoid this issue does irritate me.

The feeling is mutual here, and for much better reasons than yours.

I would say that is is entirely possible for superman to have an unpredictable fight against a…

Yes, anything is entirely possible so long as it’s not related to Mahouka where only the things you claim are the truth, despite only having superficial knowledge. Not to mention, I'm talking about 'your' neighbor to begin with, and it was pretty obvious what I meant by it. How can you ever complain about me bringing up your bias when you reply in such a way? If you want me to seriously believe that it wasn't an intentional misinterpretation, you most likely have some issue that you've not shared with us.

As for the 3 people you mentioned, I'm not sure if you knew, but I was specifically mentioning only the story covered by the anime.

The characters I was talking about were - GAA’s special commando, Lina, Parasite.

There's no viable excuse for why Tatsuya hasn't been properly challenged. Like I said before, there are ways to make Tatsuya struggle in a fight without reducing the power gap between him and his foes.

What are you even talking about? The guy from third high and the parasite are literal examples of how you can make Tatsuya struggle in a fight without reducing the power gap between him and his foes. Pay attention to what you’re watching instead of criticizing things just for the sake of it.

If the author chose to write Tatsuya in a way that he never challenges himself, that is patently bad writing. But even then the story could present him with more situations where he has no choice but to overextend and challenge himself. Yet it does not. Why would a skilled mathematician only attempts equations they are already comfortable with? If you follow that career it's because you want to challenge yourself.

Why does it seem that you haven’t even watched the anime properly (skimmed through it) and have only come here to get some attention? The anime literally shows how he challenges himself (against Lina and Parasite), even if not by choice. If you don't get the impression (which you clearly didn't, or you'd not have mentioned it), it's about time you accept that the anime is useless if anyone wants to seriously judge the series. Don't be obstinate when you clearly see the issues yourself.
About the mathematician thing, you really have some serious problem that makes you think that only your opinion is right and anything else is not possible. I’ve personally met people who’re really great in what they do, but don’t try to seek challenges, as they’re already satisfied with their life. You might have a different opinion, but countles people prefer stability over challenges. Like I mentioned previously, stop claiming that your own personal views and ideals are universal facts. After all, not all people think the same way you do. Please notice already that the world doesn’t work in accordance with your opinions.

You also seem to have a misconception that a person could only face challenges based on their power alone, when the truth is that Tatsuya has been challenging himself mentally in the field of magic engineering since the very beginning of the series (and even before that, chronologically), so you failing to notice it means one of the two things, if not both - 1) You lack enough comprehension ability, 2) Mahouka anime is a very unreliable source to form your opinion on the source material. Also, since the anime has only covered the beginning phase of the series using the entire Season 1 (the reason why he didn’t come across truly challenging opponents, as he was just a big fish in a little pond), you’d naturally have to wait for future adaptations to see the things you’re talking about. Starting Visitor Arc, we get to see him facing challenges based on powers that even someone like you would be able to notice. So, stop blaming others and read the novel if you’ve no patience to wait for the following seasons in order to form an informed opinion. Otherwise, keep your criticism to the anime alone.

And in the same way when you watch a series, you want to see a protagonist who is challenged, because it is always more satisfying when they eventually succeed despite that.

Yeah, this is obviously a 100% subjective opinion. You've made it very clear at this point that your real issue is that the things in Mahouka just doesn't suit your taste, and not that it's anywhere as flawed as you claim it to be based on your insufficient knowledge.You're obviously only talking about the preference of people who're more interested in seeing the protagonist challenged. If you have any objections, try to prove how the satisfaction factor is not subjective.

I am not a toxic contrarian.

I'm not so sure, considering how you’re only agreeing because of the fact that you don’t have anything to say otherwise in this case. Because, just as you mentioned yourself, he doesn’t really say/do anything after the fight in the anime, so you simply don’t want to take a gamble by making pure assumptions based on nothing. Basically, you're only doing service to yourself by not contradicting it. (though I'd not be surprised if you come up with something now just to refute what I said)

I would define a morally grey character as a character that actively makes "morally good" and "morally bad" decisions during the runtime of the show.

Just another case of subjective opinion that doesn't have much to do with what we were talking about. You do realize that you thinking otherwise doesn’t change the fact that he is “morally grey”, right? Also, Vash’s example doesn’t apply here. Even when he met Tatsuya for the first time, he was trying to figure out the secret behind his strength with an aggressive mentality, showing how he isn’t really a morally pure, ‘good’ guy.

But you have not yet provided any proof that what aspects of the overarching plot that actually are there happen to be incorrect or inaccurate.

Before I mention anything, I’d first have to know what aspects of the overarching plot did you come to know after watching the anime. Mention it clearly in your reply to this quote. Besides, it was you who made up the 'incorrect aspects of the overarching plot' thing yourself for the sake of your argument to begin with. All I did was mention that the transition is unfaithful (that is, lacking and thus unreliable), unlike your claim.

How about this. I haven't heard a single criticism of the LNs from you. You have never admitted a single flaw that it contains. It's not the fact that you're unable to spot flaws in the LN, but...

Isn't the reason obvious? It’s because I'm not even getting the opportunity to talk about such things when I've to write such long replies just to make you understand the basic things. If you mention something that is actually wrong with the LN, I’d gladly accept your constructive criticism and have a discussion on it. The problem with you is that you only mention the things that you severely lack the knowledge on due to how the anime adaptations are produced, so I’d naturally have to point it out that things are different in the LN. Otherwise, what's the point of a LN reader joining the discussion if they don't even correct your misunderstandings based on the anime? It's one of the most basic things that any LN reader does. I never mentioned that there’s no room for improvement in the LN, and that it's perfect, but simply tried to show that the LN does a far better job than its anime adaptations. It’s obviously not bias, but an actual fact based on knowledge from the source material, which allows me to see and judge things differently from an anime-only like you. Your vision is restricted by the impression you got from the anime, while I can judge things better as I’ve a wider perspective due to having enough knowledge from both the mediums. Simple as that.

When I said that virtual waves make no sense, you only replied with

I admit that I was in the wrong for not making it clear enough, despite knowing very well that you barely understand the magic system.

You intentionally insulted my comprehension and intelligence and now you've realised that in doing so you massively oversimplified your argument to the point where it was misleading and bordering incorrect.

Actually, it’s just the opposite. I ended up having an inflated opinion of your mental capability after reading your discussions with malMaxi. It’s why I thought that you could easily get what I mean, even if it was an oversimplified reply. But now that I think about it, just having some knowledge on technical things is far from enough to assume that you’re intelligent, so it was my mistake for making such an assumption.

There's no point responding to this when malMaxi already came up with a far better criticism of virtual waves than I could provide.

malMaxi is only attempting to look at it from another perspective (based on our present technology). So, I don’t see any ‘far better criticism’ of the virtual waves that are based on the magic technology of Mahouka. Are you sure that you're not just misinterpreting things once again?

However saying that "magic overwrites reality" is about as specific as the statement "the laws of physics govern reality", and doesn't mean someone will instantly comprehend all the laws of physics.

You really need to learn from ‘A’? I’ll only tell you once so don't forget it later on. Magic allows you to trigger various changes, though limited by your talent, magic power, spells, efforts, equipments, etc. This process is called overwriting reality with magic. I kept it simple and to the point, so I hope you get it now. It’s tiring to repeat the same basic things again and again after all.

thanks for trying to explain it even if you couldn't figure out all the specific details.

No problem, just be sure to pay attention to the things I mention in our discussions. It seems that I have a better memory than you, but don't expect me to remember each and every detail. You’re having trouble remembering just the little things you see in the anime, so you should be able to easily imagine how difficult it'd be to remember everything in the LN that has a hundred times more details.

I have witnessed some adaptations that transcend even Mahouka.

Never mentioned that there couldn’t be worse cases than Mahouka, so that’s beside the point. Moreover, it’s impossible for you to “really” understand how bad the anime adaptation is in comparison to the original story, as you severely lack the knowledge to make the comparison in the first place.

you may not realise just how much of the source material actually is retained in the anime.

Regardless, it’s a fact that I’m in a much better position to analyze how much the source material is retained in the anime. Not to mention, two whole volumes significant to the story have been completely skipped which immediately shows that there’s a huge issue with the retention of the source material. On the other hand, you’re only relying on guesswork and assumptions here.

Modified by Symons1m, Sep 13, 2021 12:31 PM
 
Sep 13, 2021 3:24 PM

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Posts: 858
Loved the eps, and im a little torn over this retelling but im happy to roll with it as its not retelling, we get to see story from a different perspective. But reduce hte monolith rookie event down to that single snap. Cant say Im happy. It was an epic battle in the original, so they better start upping there game in the next eps else I will not be pleased!

Only you know what you've seen, heard, and felt. Someone else's opinion is irrelevant. It belongs to you.
 
 
Sep 13, 2021 8:54 PM

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Posts: 96
"Why would you Third High students...?" "The Nine School Competition is all about...blah blah blah..."

This is one of the tropes I HATE. Without ANY EVIDENCE, assuming your rival will accept the Win NO MATTER WHAT.
 
Sep 14, 2021 4:55 AM
I pay for this

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Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 5997
I cant help but literally just see the same stuff from a slightly different perspective. I know its the way intended but still, bothers me a bit
 
Sep 14, 2021 7:59 AM

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Posts: 11400
oh is that the legendary small time thanos snap from Tatsuya? lolz!
that's CLEVAH! (lolz Korg)
3/5.


 
Sep 18, 2021 10:05 AM

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Posts: 12827
Nice the girls took care of those guys and it ends with Tatsuya's legendary snap.
 
Oct 18, 2021 10:40 AM

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Posts: 1645
Eimi operation suuccessfully. They can secure dangerous area. That snap still remain power of godsuya
 
Nov 27, 2021 1:53 AM
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Posts: 905
Symons1m said:
It's funny that an anime-only, who literally admitted that he lacks knowledge from the LN, is trying to claim that I’m unable to comprehend the sheer extent to which Tatsuya is overpowered. Please stop believing that your personal assumptions are truer than the knowledge from the LN.
it seems I have an apology to make
I did genuinely believe it was possible to deconstruct the source material based off the breadcrumbs of a flawed adaptation

however I then watched the Cowboy Bebop Live Action. That abomination truly convinced me it was entirely possible for an adaptation to completely miss every single character beat, tonal state, character dynamic, cohesive plot point, and even basic logic.
I will retract all criticisms of the LN until the (improbable) event that I read it.

Thank you for putting up with my BS up till now
 

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