DO NOT discuss the source material beyond this episode. If you want to discuss future events or theories, please use separate threads.
DO NOT ask where to watch/download this episode or give links to copyrighted, non-fair use material.
DO NOT troll/bait/harass/abuse other users for liking or disliking the series/characters.
DO read the Anime Discussion Rules and Site & Forum Guidelines.
DO NOT ask where to watch/download this episode or give links to copyrighted, non-fair use material.
DO NOT troll/bait/harass/abuse other users for liking or disliking the series/characters.
DO read the Anime Discussion Rules and Site & Forum Guidelines.
vegeta8639 said: Well if you have reading comprehension, I don't know how you missed the part of my first post on here where I said: "This wouldn't actually work now for obvious reasons but I just thought of another way Rika could actually solve the Satoko's uncle situation with her new knowledge. " and went on to explain why it wouldn't work on current Satoko because blah blah blah so I'm stupid for suggesting it. And yea I have no fucking clue why you think Satoko would break if she found out her brother was alive and being treated by Irie rather than being missing or dead in a ditch somewhere. Regardless her "breaking" here would also have to be worse than her "breaking" from staying with her uncle to make it not worth a shot, and again worst case it would go poorly and Rika would start over again. I didn’t miss that part, I responded to it. “You know what Rika also feels from her perspective? What she knows from her perspective? That, like I told Mr. Konata pfp, Satoko would break if she heard that Satoshi was in a coma, and that he won't ever come save her from her hardships.” You can feign ignorance and keep acting stupid if you want, but at least do it with some class. No need to swear every other sentence to get your ill-constructed point across. I get that you don’t agree with my points of contention, no need to flame pal. [quote=MadaoPriest message=64116766] vegeta8639 said: Of course we both know that Satoko said farewell to her nii-nii in Gou, don't we? Or did you forget that scene? Yes? And Rika didn't see that scene making it completely and utterly irrelevant to her making this decision so I don't see why you're even bringing it up. It's like you seriously don't have theory of mind, this is fucking insane. Again, no need to swear your lungs off. You’re free to, but it really only adds doubt to any goodwill you might have in carrying a decent discussion. I brought the scene up to lead into my next paragraph, about how that scene helped inform Satoko’s actions throughout the rest of this route. Nothing more, nothing less. Just wanted to make sure you were on the same page as before I pressed on. Sorry if that offended your delicate nature bud. vegeta8639 said: You know this smug condescending rant might actually be convincing to someone who didn't watch the show or play the visual novel, to know that Rika understood Satoko SO well that she completely gave up on her every single time her uncle even came back until the second to last world where she managed to convince Satoko to ask for help on the phone to CWS causing the police to break in and arrest her uncle. If there's anybody who understands that Satoko might actually be strong enough to hear the truth, it should be post original series Rika since she was already wrong about Satoko being strong enough to stand up to her uncle. Meanwhile you're asserting that the reason for Rika not trying this plan is because she understands Satoko so perfectly that she knows it's not even worth a try, when both us and Rika know from the original story that she didn't understand Satoko as well as she thought. And if she does understand her better now, it would be tilting towards Satoko being strong enough to hear it. What you're saying would only make sense when applied to the pre Minagoroshi Rika, and even then you're just pulling the justification out of your ass. They didn't show Rika considering the idea in the show and deciding against it. You'd have to appeal to some really subtle writing in a show that's been extremely over the top and over explanatory for everything else so far. Improve your reading comprehension, maybe look up what "theory of mind" is and learn how to pay attention while watching a show before jumping into random arguments and accusing other people of not paying attention. I’m sorry if my assertions offended you to the degree where you can’t carry a decent discussion to save your life. Sadly, your frustrations and poor mannerisms do little to mitigate my efforts. Complain about my reading comprehension all you like, but first make sure to take a writing class. You clearly don’t know how to use commas, how to connect sentences in a way that carries your intentions, nor do you have the patience to respect the core argument of the one whose assertions you deny. By all rights, there’s no reason for me to respond to such low effort insults. Yet here I am, giving you the time of day. First off: “You know this smug condescending rant might actually be convincing to someone who didn't watch the show or play the visual novel, to know that Rika understood Satoko SO well that she completely gave up on her every single time her uncle even came back until the second to last world where she managed to convince Satoko to ask for help on the phone to CWS causing the police to break in and arrest her uncle.” This sentence? Please reconstruct it in a way where it’s actually readable, so that I may respond to it in a satisfactory manner. This isn’t an insult, just an appeal. You can ignore this if you’d like. “both us and Rika know from the original story that she didn't understand Satoko as well as she thought. And if she does understand her better now, it would be tilting towards Satoko being strong enough to hear it.” Sure, if Rika had immediately jumped from the end of the last series to this arc, I’d buy that argument. However, so far, Rika has little incentive to majorly break the flow of events in this arc. Because this arc? It’s one of the few ones they won in the original (until they didn’t, of course). Rika has begun to question how the changes she’s made - in the previous arcs in Gou/Sotsu - have just made things worse. So, seeing as she’s arrived at the arc where Keiichi proved to her that the power of love and friendship can prevail, she intends to see the course of events through as they originally happened. Satoko realises this, and so chooses to play into Rika’s misinformed idea of how to approach this arc. She could change things significantly, like telling Satoko about Satoshi, but when has she ever? And after despairing over how her changes - like Mion’s doll - have negatively impacted these redo arcs, why would she try to significantly alter a new route’s timeline? If any of my comments have - once again - offended you in some way, I’m sorry an actual discussion where your misguided ideas are prodded causes stress and anguish. You’re free to break off the discussion whenever. |
 |
NekoArc666 said: Who said that I knew this would happen since Gou? I did however know that all of the things you mentioned would happen because of the previous episode due to Satoko's absurdly good acting skills. There really wasn't much of a mystery there. Also Eua really doesn't impact the plot in any way in the middle of arcs and is only there to give generic reactions for certain events. Not everything in a Ryuukishi work is about the mystery. If that’s what you were referring to on its own, being singularly focused on “the mystery”, then I completely get what you mean with 90% being of little interest. To me, how the characters act, feel and respond to events that had only been inferred - or not shown at all - is of interest. If the mystery itself is the only interesting part for you, I’m sorry if I misinterpreted your comment. It’s a completely valid point. I respectfully disagree. In each scene she’s had with Teppei, there’s been clear discomfort, worry, self-reflection in Satoko’s mannerisms and behaviour, among many other narrative complexions; conveyed through the visual storytelling. Facial expressions, vocal inflections, Satoko waiting a few seconds before actually being able to hold Teppei’s hand - indicating Satoko slowly getting over her trauma depicted in both Gou and the original series - are all depictions of Satoko’s apparent trauma in Sotsu. Even the words she chooses around him can be seen as references to both past and future actions and consequences, such as Satoko asking Teppei if he’s willing to lay down his life for her. You don’t have to agree, but this is all apparent in the visual storytelling. NekoArc666 said: Now ironically, despite naming most of the things that happened this episode, you didn't even bother mentioning the actual interesting part of this episode: That Satoko's witch personality is losing control over Satoko's actual personality at the very end of the episode. I’m not sure you understand the meaning of the word “irony”, but I getchu. I thought I had ended my last example with: “And the fallout of said scene (pukeout)”, but it seems I didn’t. My bad! NekoArc666 said: Funnily enough though, even that scene wasn't too interesting since I already saw the leaks of Satoko's dual personality beforehand, I just didn't know that this was the episode where they reveal that information. I’m not sure how potential leaks beforehand make the scenes any less interesting. To me, a potential leak would deepen the intrigue, making me question whether or not some of my own ideas are compatible with what’s supposedly true - but hasn’t happened yet. I understand your point though! |
|
Chargecoulomb said: @Madaopriest Wouldn't the thought of her brother being treated for HS rather than assumed dead / left due to her bring more comfort to Satoko? Its up to interpretation but Satoko never expected Satoshi to come back. Her trying to protect this stuff in Minagoroshi was just her trying to preserve his memory. One of the reasons she takes Rikas 'betrayal' so badly, is because she assumes that like Satoshi, Rika will never come back to her. Knowing that Satoshi hadnt really abandoned her would really help Satoko. Because before looping she thinks that Satoshi left because of her. Rika would tell Satoko, but keep in mind, Rika is not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed. (and she has returned to being passive observer in Gou, rather than an active participant) It never occurred to her to use her invisible buddy to figure out who or what was killing her after all. Satoko has way more emotional maturity that what people give her credit for in the OG, Matsubiriyashi and Miotsukushi show this to an extent. Rikas faith in Satoko was misplaced before Minagoroshi. Hanyuu calls her out on this. Why doesn't Rika check up on Takano until Nekodamashi? Why does Rika give Keichii cryptic hints rather than being straight forward? Why does she let Tomitake disappear when she knows that this lowers her chances of beating Takano to a extremely low level? Because she's gone back to being a near Passive observer, who waits for Keichii to save Satoko for her. That is a seperate problem in itself, but that is why Rika doesn't even try to explain things to Satoko. The moment where Rika starts seriously suspecting Satoko is probably after Takano confessed and asked her for forgiveness. Gou already showed us that Teppei wanted to go to extents to please Satoko. Thus we put two and two together to understand that Satoko was taking advantage of him. We had already come up with this before Sotsu. Gou/Sotsu makes a specific point that Rika does NOT understand Satoko. Neither does Satoko really understand Rika. I explained most of my reasoning in my response to vegeta8639. But I’ll do my best to respond to the rest of your well formulated points. I used to personally think Satoko might feel some relief knowing her brother’s alive. But ever since the last few episodes of Gou happened, where she bids him farewell, my doubts have grown. I believe Rika might share your belief to some degree, but she also knows how powerful hope is since the end of the original work. Add the fact that she’s begun to question whether or not she should change too many fundamentals of these redo arcs - owing to their abysmal results - and we’ve got an indecisive and passive Rika; like you’ve observed. What won their victory in the original arc was hope. She initially didn’t trust Keiichi’s abilities, so this time, that’s the only thing she’ll rectify. She’ll completely give him the benefit of the doubt, trusting that Satoko will be able to hold out until they can save her. Interestingly enough, there are several scenes where Rika probes Satoko this episode, asking her questions about where she’s been, the CWC and even flashing some distrustful gazes. At one point she even seems to question whether or not the Satoko she knows would have sounded so genuinely gleeful; when saying that there was no trouble at home and that the CWC shouldn’t interfere - in front of the shrine. The reason why Rika becomes more of an observer with each Gou arc, is because each time she tries altering a repeat arc, she’s met with worse results than before. This culminates in her pondering over whether or not to kill herself, giving her friends the chance to find her before sundown; low odds and with nothing but hope in her heart. They won her over, giving her the motivation to become less of an observer in the Akasaka arc. For reasons we don’t yet know, she breaks in that arc. We can speculate, but I have nothing conclusive on my hands. Chargecoulomb said: Gou/Sotsu makes a specific point that Rika does NOT understand Satoko. Neither does Satoko really understand Rika. Definitely. They did know each other at one point, each others outer shells. But as time has passed, 100 years for the both of them, they’re slowly coming to terms with how little they truly get one another. Perhaps Satoko will give up on Rika, come the end? I’m really curious to see where Gou/Sotsu takes these two characters. |
|
| Satoko got my award for her as best at manipulation and actress Idk, I'm just gotta watch this season for the sake of being a fan and osts too |
"Everyone fails sometimes But dreams won't fade, dreams won't fade Let's chase them as many times as it takes and don't lose Because today after all is today and once you wake up, it'll be a new morning" ~Aqours~ |
Yea and I responded to your later response but before you responded to it, you wrote an entire message completely ignoring that part and explaining to me why it wouldn't work on current Satoko and how I'm stupid for suggesting it even though in the VERY FIRST post I was clear that it would NOT work on current Satoko and I'm just talking about Rika's perspective. And the issue with this is that you are now pretending that you did read it right all along so you do have reading comprehension, even though it's clear from your first reply to me that you did not. So concede that point and admit you completely misunderstood my first message when you wrote your reply or you're a dishonest coward. The messages are still there, anybody can see them. MadaoPriest said: You can feign ignorance and keep acting stupid if you want, but at least do it with some class. No need to swear every other sentence to get your ill-constructed point across. I get that you don’t agree with my points of contention, no need to flame pal. Bhahahahaha, I wrote a normal post not addressed to anyone in particular then you came out of the ether to call me stupid while misunderstanding my perfectly fine post, yet I'm the one "flaming" because I used the F word twice in that entire message, not even close to every other sentence. You're the one throwing insults for no reason then accusing me of flaming. What a joke XD MadaoPriest said: Again, no need to swear your lungs off. You’re free to, but it really only adds doubt to any goodwill you might have in carrying a decent discussion. I said "fucking" once in that paragraph and twice in the entire message. Just what are you on about? There is no rule on this site against general swearing. You're just deflecting because you know you're demonstrably wrong on the main points. Also you know what else might ruin any goodwill you have going into a discussion? Telling somebody they've been posting stupid comments every week in your first interaction with them. Oh yea that's what somebody looking for a cordial little discussion would do. F right off with that shit. And even then I was way nicer to you initially than I should have been but don't worry, I'm done making that mistake that now. MadaoPriest said: I brought the scene up to lead into my next paragraph, about how that scene helped inform Satoko’s actions throughout the rest of this route. Nothing more, nothing less. Yea that makes absolutely no sense in the context. From "Satoko would break if she learned the truth about Satoshi" to "Satoko said farewell to her nii-nii in Gou. Didn't you watch that scene???" as if that's in any way supporting your previous assertion which it's clearly not. MadaoPriest said: I’m sorry if my assertions offended you to the degree where you can’t carry a decent discussion to save your life. Sadly, your frustrations and poor mannerisms... Blah blah blah, keep bitching for another 10 minutes about my tone and writing style instead of addressing the argument. MadaoPriest said: This sentence? Please reconstruct it in a way where it’s actually readable, so that I may respond to it in a satisfactory manner. Sure thing bud. Rika think she know Satoko very well before Minagoroshi. Rika think Satoko too weak to stand up to her uncle so Rika instantly give up on current world every time Satoko uncle come back. At end of Minagoroshi Satoko finally stand up to her uncle and ask for help with support of everyone. Rika learn that she was wrong about Satoko be weak and should not give up on her. Therefore your assertion that Rika would think she understands Satoko SO WELL this time around, that she's too weak to hear the truth, even though just recently Rika was wrong about underestimating her in that exact way is just ridiculous. What late game Rika would probably think is something like: "Satoko has proven me wrong when I underestimated her before so I'm going to take a gamble by telling her the truth now and trusting that she's strong enough to hear it." MadaoPriest said: Sure, if Rika had immediately jumped from the end of the last series to this arc, I’d buy that argument. However, so far, Rika has little incentive to majorly break the flow of events in this arc. Because this arc? It’s one of the few ones they won in the original (until they didn’t, of course). Rika has begun to question how the changes she’s made - in the previous arcs in Gou/Sotsu - have just made things worse. Well I'm actually not sure how much memory Rika has of anything post Matsuribayashi at this point. She seemed to vaguely remember attending St. Lucia and not much else but you're appealing to the 2 failed arcs from Gou so I'll focus on that. In the first one she gave Keiichi some fortune cookie advice and left it at that, then was shocked when the world failed. By that point Rina was already dead yet Rika did nothing to even inquire about that situation. Her meddling too much was not the cause of that downfall by any metric. Seriously, let me set the beef aside for a minute here. You should play the extra Miotsukushi arc of the visual novel. It replaces Matsuribayashi (original last arc) and instead of everything except Takano's plot magically being solved, it has Rika team up with Keiichi to solve these problems. So Satoko's uncle comes back and Rika is VERY proactive against him there, they solve Rena's problem, some stuff with Shion happens etc. That's literally what I'm asking for here. Do something with your information. Go see how Rena's doing. Do something new and crazy about Satoko's uncle. All she did here was give Keiichi some fortune cookie advice when it was probably too late and told him to give Mion the doll, which she already did in Minagorishi. Then she's for some reason thrown into complete despair when those worlds inevitably fail. She's not even doing anything to stop Tomitake from getting killed (which he isn't here but she doesn't know that yet). So when you assert that I'm asking for something stupid or impossible here when a similar Higurashi story already exists, it is fucking annoying. Especially when you refuse to address the core point and spend 80% of the time tone policing me or writing thinly veiled insults which I guess are fine as long as you don't use the "fuck" word. Anyway to finish addressing your argument. There is just no reason why Rika would think her own meddling is causing the worlds to fail when she did almost nothing both times. She already did the doll thing before so it couldn't be that and she gave some advice to Keiichi. How could this possibly cause her to think she's doing TOO MUCH and so shouldn't do anything new with the uncle. I can acknowledge that maybe she thinks the uncle world will go well so she shouldn't mess with it too much but even in the original one they needed Rika to do stuff in order to make it work. Regardless in that case a line from her saying as much would be appreciated. |
 |
MadaoPriest said: Yes, who knows, maybe it was.Hulio said: Well Madao, Satoko may already know Nii-Nii's state, but Rika doesn't know Satoko knows. Rika could try to solve something by revealing this stuff to Satoko, but would it do anything? Can't tell, probably not. What it would do however, is that it'd make an interesting scene, but I guess that would be too complicated to animate. "I guess it would be too complicated to animate." What kind of low effort jab is this? Maybe Ryuukishi's just weighed what's more important to depict over your sudden idea? Maybe he actually thought 5 steps ahead, realising that "wait, Rika wouldn't tell Satoko about Satoshi because she knows that would break her." You've been battling with Vegeta so much about "reading comprehension" I'm surprised to see you're saying this was "my" "sudden idea".God knows what R07 is thinking... or was thinking, but I'm pretty sure he's not considering your sudden idea of " the knowledge would break her". Why would that break her further? Because she lives with hope in her heart that he's still out there, that he'll come back home and save her in her time of need. Yes, why would that break her further?Hint 1: It didn't. (Hint: The scene where she says bye bye to nii-nii. Hint 2: Her Keiichi nii-nii psychosis at the end of this arc.) These are irrelevant when considering Rika's thought patterns.Again, it's only proactive and logical to someone like you; someone who clearly hasn't factored in Rika's in-depth understanding of who she believes Satoko still is. Funny how at the same time as Rika has deep "in-depth understanding" of Satoko, she also doesn't recognize/understand any changes in her.It takes her 7-8 (however many there were) times to die and fragments see for her to start questioning herself "Satoko is kinda suspicious, I need figure out something to see if that's true" Very logical. Very proactive. Yes, just like Rika herself.Start paying attention before you complain next time, please. You could do the same.Kilarn said: These might have been hinted towards, but they were never established in the original storyline.It is quite hinted in the Visual Novel and even in Gou that some key moments of the story are sufficient to avoid the tragedy: Keiichi giving the doll to Mion, Keiichi opening the door to Rena, avoid Oishi to investigate... Rika is trying her past solutions to break the loop, but the rules have changed, as the gamemaster. For the example the doll, How many times... in how many fragments did K1 give it to Mion instead of Rena? Once? If it was once then it was that one miraculous fragment where everything was working out. More than once? In that case those other cases lead to "tragedy" in the end (they were not fragments of "victory" like Matsuribayashi so they must have had a bad end.) The Tragedy what Rika/VN means is the Tragedy of the Syndrome, Non-Takano Tragedy. But as we know, they're more of a side quest in order to beat the game. Watadamashi is the same type as Matsuribayashi, so instead of telling K1 to give the doll to Mion, she should have done the same things as she did in Matsuri. PinkShibaInu said: Oh lord tell me about.MurukoHiiragi said: Satoko got my award for her as best at manipulation and actress Every time I hear this, I think you're all just joking or forcing a meme. What kind of stupid meme even is this? It just came outta nowhere and suddenly everyone is giving her an Oscar. Why is nobody giving Rika any awards for being 100 year old semi-alcoholic granny in a child's body maintaining the facade of the Nipaa~ Rika has been acting for a very long time by now. |
| Intelligent gets through situations which wise avoids. |
MadaoPriest said: I explained most of my reasoning in my response to vegeta8639. But I’ll do my best to respond to the rest of your well formulated points. I used to personally think Satoko might feel some relief knowing her brother’s alive. But ever since the last few episodes of Gou happened, where she bids him farewell, my doubts have grown. I believe Rika might share your belief to some degree, but she also knows how powerful hope is since the end of the original work. Add the fact that she’s begun to question whether or not she should change too many fundamentals of these redo arcs - owing to their abysmal results - and we’ve got an indecisive and passive Rika; like you’ve observed. What won their victory in the original arc was hope. She initially didn’t trust Keiichi’s abilities, so this time, that’s the only thing she’ll rectify. She’ll completely give him the benefit of the doubt, trusting that Satoko will be able to hold out until they can save her. Interestingly enough, there are several scenes where Rika probes Satoko this episode, asking her questions about where she’s been, the CWC and even flashing some distrustful gazes. At one point she even seems to question whether or not the Satoko she knows would have sounded so genuinely gleeful; when saying that there was no trouble at home and that the CWC shouldn’t interfere - in front of the shrine. The reason why Rika becomes more of an observer with each Gou arc, is because each time she tries altering a repeat arc, she’s met with worse results than before. This culminates in her pondering over whether or not to kill herself, giving her friends the chance to find her before sundown; low odds and with nothing but hope in her heart. They won her over, giving her the motivation to become less of an observer in the Akasaka arc. For reasons we don’t yet know, she breaks in that arc. We can speculate, but I have nothing conclusive on my hands. Chargecoulomb said: Gou/Sotsu makes a specific point that Rika does NOT understand Satoko. Neither does Satoko really understand Rika. Definitely. They did know each other at one point, each others outer shells. But as time has passed, 100 years for the both of them, they’re slowly coming to terms with how little they truly get one another. Perhaps Satoko will give up on Rika, come the end? I’m really curious to see where Gou/Sotsu takes these two characters. I get your persepective. Ill elaborate a bit about about my thoughts on Rikas passiveness. The thing with Rikas passiveness is that shes already been through Matsuribayashi, and she continually continues to ignore the events of that arc. She knows that just Keichii is no where near enough to defeat Takano. She needs all of her friends, literally all of them + Akasaka + Kasai + A ton of Luck + Outright reality messsup (Akasaka being a fighter even though Yui wasnt dead) + a specific Deus Ex Machina.. ... if she is ever to beat Takano. Even then instead of being forward with Keichii like in Miotsukiushi, she instead becomes cryptic and drops small scraps of hints and advice. Much of Miotsukushi and Matsuribayashi is built on the set up Hanyuu herself did in creating the fragment -> now that she is gone, Rika has to do extra legwork to make up for it, which ideally would look something like Miotsukushi. You need to look at that arc to see what a active Rika can really do. Its a night and day difference with Gou's Rika. All she tries are small alterations -> when she knows for certain that these are not enough for a victory. Tomitake is a special point because as soon as he dissapears that world is as well as lost. Theres also her missing the signs if Satokos physical abuse. Seriously compare Minagorshi deen Satoko to Tataridamashi Satoko. The latter looks pristine. She probably put it together at some later time, but the fact that she didnt notice it in the arc itself is atrocious. --- Im not saying that Rika should have told Satoko about Satoshi in the loops per se. She could have even told her right before they went to St Lucia. Until she found out from Eua, she still thought that Satoshi had run off and abandoned her. If Rika had told her during post Matsuri or even during her second and third semi-full loops. She might have stopped. I found this to be a problem in the OG Matsuribayashi as well, but you could make the excuse that Satoko was too young then, Rika should have 100 percent told her about his condition as she got older. This would be the perfect time to try if she unsure of how to proceed. She wouldnt have told Satoko before Minagoroshi, because she had given up before Keichii showed her that fate could be changed and stuff. Things were too hectic in Matsuribaysahi. If she was really throwing stuff at the wall to see what would stick, this seems lika good place to start. |
ChargecoulombAug 14, 2021 11:20 PM
vegeta8639 said: … you are now pretending that you did read it right all along so you do have reading comprehension, even though it's clear from your first reply to me that you did not. ... The messages are still there, anybody can see them. I wrote a response to your ill-begotten opinion of my original observational investment. If you can’t trust a single word in that response, I don’t see why you make the effort to continuously insult the person you’re throwing a tantrum at. Perhaps your own communications skill is partially to blame? Perhaps a need for validation drives you to expand on the insults, less so the content of your responses? I wouldn’t know, but I would suggest you commit to some self reflection before denying the goodwill of others. I did read your message. I responded to it. You missed my response and then threw a tantrum about it, claiming that I neither read nor responded to your paragraph, yet I did. And when I brought up what I did? You confirmed that I did. Yes, these messages are still here for anyone to read. That goes for yours, too. vegeta8639 said: You're the one throwing insults for no reason then accusing me of flaming. What a joke XD I never said you had no reason to flame, nor did I assert that you were throwing insults for no reason. But you did choose to spice up your response with insults, unnecessary F-bombs and you’re still flaming. Me calling that out and urging you to mature a tee bit? Shouldn’t be an issue. You’re free to believe that my constructive criticism of your ill-mannered behaviour is “insults for no reason”, but you’d be incorrect. You’re just incapable of taking any criticism, it seems. And that’s alright! To each their own. vegeta8639 said: You're just deflecting because you know you're demonstrably wrong on the main points. Not really. Just responding to your points in a fair and concise manner, one befitting the play rules you’ve set up. vegeta8639 said: Also you know what else might ruin any goodwill you have going into a discussion? Telling somebody they've been posting stupid comments every week in your first interaction with them. Oh yea that's what somebody looking for a cordial little discussion would do. F right off with that shit. And even then I was way nicer to you initially than I should have been but don't worry, I'm done making that mistake that now. I’ll admit that the way I started this little feud wasn’t in good form, so to be the bigger man I’ll apologize for the insulting way I treated you initially. I’m sorry. You’re free to do as you like. vegeta8639 said: Yea that makes absolutely no sense in the context. From "Satoko would break if she learned the truth about Satoshi" to "Satoko said farewell to her nii-nii in Gou. Didn't you watch that scene???" as if that's in any way supporting your previous assertion which it's clearly not. If you’re going to publicly express your lack of understanding of the point I made, at least include the full context. It’s alright if you didn’t get it, I’ll explain again: In the short paragraph, I explained Rika’s reasoning and how she would approach the Satoko/Satoshi situation. Then, I followed that up with a disclaimer, explaining that unlike what Rika believes, Satoko’s changed. Then, I made an appeal to the one I responded to - you - to see if you remembered that scene. If it came off as rude, I apologize. vegeta8639 said: Blah blah blah, keep bitching for another 10 minutes about my tone and writing style instead of addressing the argument. I mean, I did address your argument as well. Don’t you have basic reading comprehension-... is something you’d probably say, but I’ll refrain from doing so. Though… it really took you 10 minutes to read that one portion of my response? Maybe you’re just a slow reader, but I don’t judge! vegeta8639 said: … your assertion that Rika would think she understands Satoko SO WELL this time around, that she's too weak to hear the truth, even though just recently Rika was wrong about underestimating her in that exact way is just ridiculous. What late game Rika would probably think is something like: "Satoko has proven me wrong when I underestimated her before so I'm going to take a gamble by telling her the truth now and trusting that she's strong enough to hear it." I never said Rika thinks Satoko’s “too weak” to hear it. Just that, in this situation, after having majorly changed previous arcs to no avail, Rika has no incentive to tell Satoko about Satoshi. Until we have a scene where we see Rika weigh what’s gained or lost as a result, I hardly see how we can make a clear judgement on this issue. In my view: While Satoko will probably find some relief in knowing of Satoshi’s survival, she’ll also be brought down immensely by the fact that he’ll most likely never recover from his illness. A happy Satoko would likely take this blow better than a depressed and mentally scarred Satoko. Whenever Satoko’s in danger, she screams for nii-nii to come save her. It’s the hope she carries in her heart during emotionally difficult situations. When she faces trauma. Imagine breaking that coping mechanism? I suppose one way to fix this would be to make Keiichi her new Nii-nii, which is definitely what Rika sets up in this redo arc, as well as in the original. Seeing as previous redo arcs failed horribly after she majorly changed things, even venting to Hanyuu about it, she’ll definitely choose to go with Keiichi again. Because last time? They won. Bringing Satoshi into the picture now? Might harm the prospects of letting Satoko forget about Satoshi, to find a new nii-nii in Keiichi. Which is what happens in the original work. vegeta8639 said: Well I'm actually not sure how much memory Rika has of anything post Matsuribayashi at this point. She seemed to vaguely remember attending St. Lucia and not much else but you're appealing to the 2 failed arcs from Gou so I'll focus on that. In the first one she gave Keiichi some fortune cookie advice and left it at that, then was shocked when the world failed. By that point Rina was already dead yet Rika did nothing to even inquire about that situation. Her meddling too much was not the cause of that downfall by any metric. You’re really quite something. Imagine having such a basic understanding of those events that you boil Rika’s actions down to “fortune cookie advice”. In the original work, a big reason why things went south so hard in Onikakushi-hen was because Keiichi’s paranoia about Rena and friends was left unchecked. This time, unlike the original, Rika decides to tell Keiichi to trust his friends beyond what his gut instinct tells him. This leads to him opening the door at the end of the route, swallowing his misguided feelings. Sadly, this time around, they weren’t misguided. I think you’re seriously confusing Tsumihoroboshi-hen - where Rena ACTUALLY goes crazy in the original - with Onikakushi-hen. Yes, major elements of Tsumihoroboshi-hen happen in Satoko’s version of this arc, but that’s because of Rena’s forced L5. Rika doesn’t know that Rena’s been spiked with the syringe, so she acts to change Onikakushi-hen, by trying to calm Keiichi’s nerves. How did you miss this? vegeta8639 said: Seriously, let me set the beef aside for a minute here. You should play the extra Miotsukushi arc of the visual novel. It replaces Matsuribayashi (original last arc) and instead of everything except Takano's plot magically being solved, it has Rika team up with Keiichi to solve these problems. So Satoko's uncle comes back and Rika is VERY proactive against him there, they solve Rena's problem, some stuff with Shion happens etc. That's literally what I'm asking for here. Do something with your information. Go see how Rena's doing. Do something new and crazy about Satoko's uncle. Go see how Rena’s doing? Again, based on what Rika’s experiencing, the first arc is just a repeat of Onikakushi-hen, where Keiichi is the mad one. She has no reason to suspect Rena, because Rena shows no signs of distress. Even so, she does go check on Rena at the trash heap. Nothing weird, she seems fine. Did you miss that scene too? vegeta8639 said: ...told him to give Mion the doll, which she already did in Minagorishi. Then she's for some reason thrown into complete despair when those worlds inevitably fail. She's not even doing anything to stop Tomitake from getting killed (which he isn't here but she doesn't know that yet). Minagoroshi isn’t the only arc where Rika tells Keiichi to give Mion the doll. But it is the only arc where she tells him to do so that ends in an actual victory of sorts. After the first arc failed, as a result of her intervention - from what she believes - she decides to go with the safe bet when the opportunity presents itself: Giving Mion the doll there results in victory. She’s tried majorly changing things once, now she goes back to following the set path. None worked, giving rise to her confusion in this arc as to how to approach it. vegeta8639 said: So when you assert that I'm asking for something stupid or impossible here when a similar Higurashi story already exists, it is fucking annoying. Especially when you refuse to address the core point and spend 80% of the time tone policing me or writing thinly veiled insults which I guess are fine as long as you don't use the "fuck" word. You keep claiming that I don’t address your core points, but I have. Time and time again. Just because I throw in a few comments in an effort to appeal to your basic human decency, it won’t change that fact. vegeta8639 said: I can acknowledge that maybe she thinks the uncle world will go well so she shouldn't mess with it too much but even in the original one they needed Rika to do stuff in order to make it work. Regardless in that case a line from her saying as much would be appreciated. Oh, I definitely don’t believe Rika has much faith in this uncle world either. She seems concerned about the entire arc with how to act and what to do. Should she meddle like in Redo Arc 1? Or tow the line like in Gou Arc 2? Doesn’t Satoko seem too chipper? Is her reasoning like in previous arcs? What’s different, what’s the same? Near the end, she swallows her concerns and tells Keiichi and co that she’ll happily have hope in her heart again. She stands her ground with Chie once more. She’ll fight for Satoko. Yes, it’s real shitty of Rika (from an outsider’s perspective) to be so passive and observant right now. No, I don’t think her actions here are out of character. |
|
Hulio said: God knows what R07 is thinking... or was thinking, but I'm pretty sure he's not considering your sudden idea of " the knowledge would break her". It all depends. Whenever Satoko’s in a major emotional bind - trauma apparent - she copes by calling for Nii-nii to come save her. In a world where Satoko’s already happy, I definitely think she’d have an easier time accepting that her brother’s in a coma, the final stage of Hinamizawa-syndrome and probably untreatable. In a state of emotional discomfort? I personally think it would break Satoko’s coping mechanism, meaning she’d have to confront reality. For good, and for worse. Of course it didn’t break Gou Satoko, she’s already gone through 100 years of memories, and tried countless times to convince Rika to not go to St. Lucia - dying over and over - all fruitlessly. I’m not arguing that it would break Satoko as she is now, not at all. But that, based on what I previously asserted, Rika might not be so odd to think so. It certainly - from her POV - would force her to confront reality. But perhaps now wouldn’t be… that great a time. |
|
Chargecoulomb said: I get your persepective. Ill elaborate a bit about about my thoughts on Rikas passiveness. The thing with Rikas passiveness is that shes already been through Matsuribayashi, and she continually continues to ignore the events of that arc. She knows that just Keichii is no where near enough to defeat Takano. She needs all of her friends, literally all of them + Akasaka + Kasai + A ton of Luck + Outright reality messsup (Akasaka being a fighter even though Yui wasnt dead) + a specific Deus Ex Machina.. ... if she is ever to beat Takano. Even then instead of being forward with Keichii like in Miotsukiushi, she instead becomes cryptic and drops small scraps of hints and advice. Much of Miotsukushi and Matsuribayashi is built on the set up Hanyuu herself did in creating the fragment -> now that she is gone, Rika has to do extra legwork to make up for it, which ideally would look something like Miotsukushi. You need to look at that arc to see what a active Rika can really do. Its a night and day difference with Gou's Rika. All she tries are small alterations -> when she knows for certain that these are not enough for a victory. Tomitake is a special point because as soon as he dissapears that world is as well as lost. Theres also her missing the signs if Satokos physical abuse. Seriously compare Minagorshi deen Satoko to Tataridamashi Satoko. The latter looks pristine. She probably put it together at some later time, but the fact that she didnt notice it in the arc itself is atrocious. --- Im not saying that Rika should have told Satoko about Satoshi in the loops per se. She could have even told her right before they went to St Lucia. Until she found out from Eua, she still thought that Satoshi had run off and abandoned her. If Rika had told her during post Matsuri or even during her second and third semi-full loops. She might have stopped. I found this to be a problem in the OG Matsuribayashi as well, but you could make the excuse that Satoko was too young then, Rika should have 100 percent told her about his condition as she got older. This would be the perfect time to try if she unsure of how to proceed. She wouldnt have told Satoko before Minagoroshi, because she had given up before Keichii showed her that fate could be changed and stuff. Things were too hectic in Matsuribaysahi. If she was really throwing stuff at the wall to see what would stick, this seems lika good place to start. I think I understand where you’re coming from, though there's a few reservations of mine I have to present. I don’t see how Rika continually ignores the events of Matsuribayashi. In fact, it’s because of Matsuribayashi and its ideal conclusion that she’s so emotionally distraught by this arc. Because she knows it took a hundred years to reach that point. She talks with Hanyuu about this, how to proceed, what to do… and then Hanyuu disappears. She’s lost, alone, dreading 100 more years of misery just to reach a new happy end - one that could be snatched from her at a moment’s notice. She has trouble remembering much of what happens after St. Lucia, but we know why at this point. “All she tries are small alterations.” In Gou Arc 1, she has the impression that this is plainly Onikakushi-hen once more. In that arc, Keiichi snapped as a result of having little faith in his friends, growing increasingly paranoid. So, to rectify this - after checking to see if Rena’s crazy at the trash heap - she urges Keiichi to trust his friends immediately this time around. Hoping that this helps open his heart to Rena - which it does - she goes to confirm it. Happy end? Not really, because behind the scenes, Satoko’s helped recreate Tsumibohoroshi-hen to some degree. Rena was always the perfect candidate for a first outing with the L5 syringe, because you can hardly spot when she’s lying to herself. Sadly, unbeknownst to Rika, the Arc had Tsumobohoroshi-hen Rena. In Gou Arc 2, she takes two steps back. Thinking that Arc 1’s result came from changing too much (perhaps), she takes a safe bet: Urge Keiichi to give Mion the doll when the opportunity presents itself, repeating the safe bet victory from Minagoroshi-hen. This ends horribly as well, with Keiichi repeating getting stuck in some dead end flags she knows are dead ends. What she doesn’t know is that Tomitake’s disappearance doesn’t mean he’s dead - though she does question why his body wasn’t found yet or why Kimiyoshi’s gone. Before she can investigate these things further for future routes, Mion - in a surprise twist of events - murders her. Something she doesn’t remember after the fact due to Satoko’s memory wipe conditions. I also believe there’s plenty of evidence to suggest that Rika is observing Satoko with cautious gazes along this route, perhaps even spotting that she doesn’t actually seem to be that hurt. Satoko even outright tells her there’s no problem this time around outside the shrine, with glee rather than trepidation. This gives Rika more clout to focus on, but that’s ultimately upended when Satoko has her fake puke out moment. That’s when Rika’s heart wins out over her concerns. At least that’s how I view it. I completely get all your reservations and points in the second half of your response. Ideally, Rika would do as you say. Unfortunately, at least in accordance with my reasoning, unexpected circumstances forced Rika’s hand - or rather, heart - here. |
|
MadaoPriest said: I wrote a response to your ill-begotten opinion of my original observational investment. If you can’t trust a single word in that response, I don’t see why you make the effort to continuously insult the person you’re throwing a tantrum at. No you are obfuscating right now. The response I'm talking about was to my ORIGINAL POST which wasn't addressed to anyone and you in that response you basically said: "lolz you're stupid, that wouldn't work on current Satoko because we saw in Gou she doesn't care about Satoshi anymore." Even though I'm that first post I made it clear it "obviously" wouldn't work on current Satoko but it would make sense from Rika's perspective which went completely over your head and it's why I initially said you have no reading comprehension. Also you insulted me first and have kept insulting every since message but then bitch about how I keep insulting you. Such a bitch move. MadaoPriest said: I never said you had no reason to flame, nor did I assert that you were throwing insults for no reason. But you did choose to spice up your response with insults, unnecessary F-bombs and you’re still flaming. Oh so you acknowledge I do have a reason for my insults because you started it but the problem is that I'm using naughty words XD Maybe don't dish it out if you can't take it? MadaoPriest said: I’ll admit that the way I started this little feud wasn’t in good form, so to be the bigger man I’ll apologize for the insulting way I treated you initially. I’m sorry. You’re free to do as you like. Thing is, even my first response to you after that was fine. I said "Jesus fuck" at the situation because I literally just got done explaining the exact same thing to another person who didn't know how to read and then calmly explained my position. And in your reply to that you kept being smugly condescending and throwing thinly veiled insults which you think are fine because you don't use the "Fuck" word but instead use "stupid", "illogical" "you need to see a doctor". And at that point I just went "fuck it, this person isn't interested in having a cordial conversation" so I stop being polite and charitable to anything you say. You're supposedly apologizing now but at the same time you're still here complaining that I insulted you as if you didn't start it and then kept doing it which makes me question your motives/sincerity. Maybe if you can go one message without sneaking in insults or attacking my character instead of the argument, I'll consider resetting as well. MadaoPriest said: If you’re going to publicly express your lack of understanding of the point I made, at least include the full context. This is the full context bro: "You know what Rika also feels from her perspective? What she knows from her perspective? That, like I told Mr. Konata pfp, Satoko would break if she heard that Satoshi was in a coma, and that he won't ever come save her from her hardships. Of course we both know that Satoko said farewell to her nii-nii in Gou, don't we? Or did you forget that scene?" So from "Rika believes Satoko would break if she learned the truth" to "scene where Satoko said goodbye to Nii-nii". I didn't leave any context out. It literally goes from one thought to a complete non sequitur. MadaoPriest said: I explained Rika’s reasoning and how she would approach the Satoko/Satoshi situation. Then, I followed that up with a disclaimer, explaining that unlike what Rika believes, Satoko’s changed. Then, I made an appeal to the one I responded to - you - to see if you remembered that scene. If it came off as rude, I apologize. If I'm being as charitable as possible, you are now saying that it was NOT meant as evidence for the claim right before it but instead as a: "Btw here's this other thing too". If that's the case then fine, but you still phrased it in an extremely misleading fashion. I didn't consider that part rude, I considered it as a: "There's the undeniable proof right before your eyes." which is weird since we are now agreeing that it's a non sequitur. So if that's your new position I obviously have no problem with the second claim but do you at least acknowledge it was phrased extremely awkwardly in that context? If yes then okay, the sky is blue, water is wet, puppies are cute. Lets talk about our initial disagreement instead. MadaoPriest said: vegeta8639 said: Blah blah blah, keep bitching for another 10 minutes about my tone and writing style instead of addressing the argument. I mean, I did address your argument as well. Yea you did and I addressed your response to my argument later. But before that you wrote another long paragraph bitching about my tone and writing style so I said: "Okay we get it, I use the F word a lot and am being rude, lets move on to the argument" in response to that part since I didn't want to go over it again. Also it just brought home my earlier point that you keep constantly deflecting by focusing on tone rather than the substance. MadaoPriest said: I never said Rika thinks Satoko’s “too weak” to hear it. Just that, in this situation, after having majorly changed previous arcs to no avail, Rika has no incentive to tell Satoko about Satoshi. Yea I'm pretty sure you just changed your argument from "Rika KNOWS it wouldn't work so she won't bother trying" to "Rika doesn't know whether it would work or not but she thinks there's no need to try since things should work out anyway." The first one falls flat on its face in how unimaginably wrong it is, the second one is maybe true but doesn't necessarily even contradict my original point. Has this seriously devolved to: >Hey here's this thing Rika could do that might work. >Yea it might work but she's not doing it because she doesn't think she needs to. If that's the case then what the FUCK are we arguing about??? If you had lead with that I would have just gone: "Yea sure. It's just an idea that came into my head. I just wish Rika would be more proactive in these worlds rather than doing next to nothing and then acting depressed when it fails as if the situation is hopeless." and this would have been over days ago. So if you don't want to defend the position anymore that my idea was "stupid" and wouldn't possibly work and Rika knows it wouldn't possibly work because she knows Satoko so well, you need to acknowledge that your stated position has changed drastically from what you initially said. Or if you want to keep defending that position, defend it since that's not what you're doing now. My position was never that it would be a perfect solution and that Satoko would accept the news with a smile on her face. I'm saying it might help her away from he uncle and would probably be better than the alternative of letting her stay with him desperately trying to defend Satoshi's room. And if it fails miserably and Satoko's head explodes, you reset worlds again and it's whatvs. At least worth a shot. MadaoPriest said: You’re really quite something. Imagine having such a basic understanding of those events that you boil Rika’s actions down to “fortune cookie advice”. In the original work, a big reason why things went south so hard in Onikakushi-hen was because Keiichi’s paranoia about Rena and friends was left unchecked.....Rika doesn’t know that Rena’s been spiked with the syringe, so she acts to change Onikakushi-hen, by trying to calm Keiichi’s nerves. How did you miss this? From what I understand from the novels, Rina is a problem for Rena in EVERY SINGLE WORLD. That means that in every single world you should be checking to see how Rena's doing and make sure she solves it without killing her. Yea you can make all these excuses about how Rika thought Keiichi was the only problem because we've seen the Onikakushi arc and know Rena was (probably) fine in it but thinking logically, why couldn't both of them have issues in the same world? Actually I'll make my position even more extreme. There is NO EXCUSE for Rika missing Rena's symptoms since Rena literally stopped going to club to bury that body. Even without investigating anything, that should have let Rika know: "Ah fuck, Rena must have killed somebody." but yet she's just surprised Pikachu face when that world goes to shit. Yea no shot, that arc (Rika) was written horribly. MadaoPriest said: Go see how Rena’s doing? Again, based on what Rika’s experiencing, the first arc is just a repeat of Onikakushi-hen, where Keiichi is the mad one. She has no reason to suspect Rena, because Rena shows no signs of distress. Even so, she does go check on Rena at the trash heap. Nothing weird, she seems fine. Did you miss that scene too? Rina is a problem in every world, so yes you should check on Rena in every world to see how that's progressing. Just like you need to stop Tomitake from getting killed in EVERY WORLD. In the worlds where Rena's "fine", Rina is presumably still leeching money from her father (unless the yakuza killed her) which means the situation would blow over eventually. You could only make that excuse in a world where Satoko's uncle comes back meaning Rina's dead. And Rena was for sure showing signs of distress such as missing club which should be an instant red flag. MadaoPriest said: She’s tried majorly changing things once, now she goes back to following the set path. None worked, giving rise to her confusion in this arc as to how to approach it. The "set path" for Onikakushi is Keiichi killing Rena and Mion then clawing his throat out. How could Rika possibly think her intervention was responsible for fucking that world up? MadaoPriest said: vegeta8639 said: Especially when you refuse to address the core point and spend 80% of the time tone policing me or writing thinly veiled insults which I guess are fine as long as you don't use the "fuck" word. You keep claiming that I don’t address your core points, but I have. Time and time again. Just because I throw in a few comments in an effort to appeal to your basic human decency, it won’t change that fact. Okay, let me rephrase that. You spend 80% of the time tone policing me or slipping in thinly veiled insults instead of addressing the argument. MadaoPriest said: Oh, I definitely don’t believe Rika has much faith in this uncle world either. She seems concerned about the entire arc with how to act and what to do. Oh my fucking God. In that case my plan is exactly the type of thing she should be considering. Her current behavior only makes sense if she's hoping Keiichi will fix everything like last time in which case I could understand her not wanting to do literally anything different than in Minagoroshi. MadaoPriest said: Yes, it’s real shitty of Rika (from an outsider’s perspective) to be so passive and observant right now. No, I don’t think her actions here are out of character. They are in character for the old Rika who's just living through each world, not doing anything, expecting it to end in disaster no matter what. But the lesson it literally took her 100 years to learn is that she needs to be proactive and have hope and trust her friends to change the world and reach a happy ending. So I don't like it. It's like she's regressed as a character. |
|
MadaoPriest said: Chargecoulomb said: I get your persepective. Ill elaborate a bit about about my thoughts on Rikas passiveness. The thing with Rikas passiveness is that shes already been through Matsuribayashi, and she continually continues to ignore the events of that arc. She knows that just Keichii is no where near enough to defeat Takano. She needs all of her friends, literally all of them + Akasaka + Kasai + A ton of Luck + Outright reality messsup (Akasaka being a fighter even though Yui wasnt dead) + a specific Deus Ex Machina.. ... if she is ever to beat Takano. Even then instead of being forward with Keichii like in Miotsukiushi, she instead becomes cryptic and drops small scraps of hints and advice. Much of Miotsukushi and Matsuribayashi is built on the set up Hanyuu herself did in creating the fragment -> now that she is gone, Rika has to do extra legwork to make up for it, which ideally would look something like Miotsukushi. You need to look at that arc to see what a active Rika can really do. Its a night and day difference with Gou's Rika. All she tries are small alterations -> when she knows for certain that these are not enough for a victory. Tomitake is a special point because as soon as he dissapears that world is as well as lost. Theres also her missing the signs if Satokos physical abuse. Seriously compare Minagorshi deen Satoko to Tataridamashi Satoko. The latter looks pristine. She probably put it together at some later time, but the fact that she didnt notice it in the arc itself is atrocious. --- Im not saying that Rika should have told Satoko about Satoshi in the loops per se. She could have even told her right before they went to St Lucia. Until she found out from Eua, she still thought that Satoshi had run off and abandoned her. If Rika had told her during post Matsuri or even during her second and third semi-full loops. She might have stopped. I found this to be a problem in the OG Matsuribayashi as well, but you could make the excuse that Satoko was too young then, Rika should have 100 percent told her about his condition as she got older. This would be the perfect time to try if she unsure of how to proceed. She wouldnt have told Satoko before Minagoroshi, because she had given up before Keichii showed her that fate could be changed and stuff. Things were too hectic in Matsuribaysahi. If she was really throwing stuff at the wall to see what would stick, this seems lika good place to start. I think I understand where you’re coming from, though there's a few reservations of mine I have to present. I don’t see how Rika continually ignores the events of Matsuribayashi. In fact, it’s because of Matsuribayashi and its ideal conclusion that she’s so emotionally distraught by this arc. Because she knows it took a hundred years to reach that point. She talks with Hanyuu about this, how to proceed, what to do… and then Hanyuu disappears. She’s lost, alone, dreading 100 more years of misery just to reach a new happy end - one that could be snatched from her at a moment’s notice. She has trouble remembering much of what happens after St. Lucia, but we know why at this point. “All she tries are small alterations.” In Gou Arc 1, she has the impression that this is plainly Onikakushi-hen once more. In that arc, Keiichi snapped as a result of having little faith in his friends, growing increasingly paranoid. So, to rectify this - after checking to see if Rena’s crazy at the trash heap - she urges Keiichi to trust his friends immediately this time around. Hoping that this helps open his heart to Rena - which it does - she goes to confirm it. Happy end? Not really, because behind the scenes, Satoko’s helped recreate Tsumibohoroshi-hen to some degree. Rena was always the perfect candidate for a first outing with the L5 syringe, because you can hardly spot when she’s lying to herself. Sadly, unbeknownst to Rika, the Arc had Tsumobohoroshi-hen Rena. In Gou Arc 2, she takes two steps back. Thinking that Arc 1’s result came from changing too much (perhaps), she takes a safe bet: Urge Keiichi to give Mion the doll when the opportunity presents itself, repeating the safe bet victory from Minagoroshi-hen. This ends horribly as well, with Keiichi repeating getting stuck in some dead end flags she knows are dead ends. What she doesn’t know is that Tomitake’s disappearance doesn’t mean he’s dead - though she does question why his body wasn’t found yet or why Kimiyoshi’s gone. Before she can investigate these things further for future routes, Mion - in a surprise twist of events - murders her. Something she doesn’t remember after the fact due to Satoko’s memory wipe conditions. It makes sense for Rika to save her friends based on what she knows about each specific kakera and how they play out. What doesnt make sense is letting everything else go to hell, as far as we and her know according to the old "rules". Being the Rika that has escaped fate in the original loops, she knows all their rules and who the culprit is, something she didnt know till Matsuribayashi. She even declares she knows those, it isnt something we assume. So it doesnt make sense when she lets Tomitake walk to his death with only a headpat.It doesnt make sense to not do anything about Takano.Why?What reason is there? I would get it if Satoko or Eua had blocked her memories of the OG's details but she remembers everything. And the excuse everyone throws around, that Rika wasnt proactive in the OG either and had surrendered to fate doesnt hold either because that was before Matsuri, BEFORE she even had an idea of how, why and by who she is killed. I am not sure where those cautious gazes were. All I saw in Sotsu was Rika getting gaslighted by a overly sus Satoko and not think twice about the bullshit Satoko of all people just said. |
Si1verR0se said: The intro scene in ep2 was supposed to be after Onidmashi?ssjokg said: It makes sense for Rika to save her friends based on what she knows about each specific kakera and how they play out. What doesnt make sense is letting everything else go to hell, as far as we and her know according to the old "rules". Being the Rika that has escaped fate in the original loops, she knows all their rules and who the culprit is, something she didnt know till Matsuribayashi. She even declares she knows those, it isnt something we assume. So it doesnt make sense when she lets Tomitake walk to his death with only a headpat.It doesnt make sense to not do anything about Takano.Why?What reason is there? I would get it if Satoko or Eua had blocked her memories of the OG's details but she remembers everything. And the excuse everyone throws around, that Rika wasnt proactive in the OG either and had surrendered to fate doesnt hold either because that was before Matsuri, BEFORE she even had an idea of how, why and by who she is killed. I am not sure where those cautious gazes were. All I saw in Sotsu was Rika getting gaslighted by a overly sus Satoko and not think twice about the bullshit Satoko of all people just said. You forget another thing: Unlike in OG she can't risk it, because Hanyu isn't there and it's not Hanyu's power that keep her in a loop. So acting that passive is just very OOC, especially considering "I'll bring our future back, I'll do everything for this" that she said in 2nd episode(which supposed to be after the Onidamashi, but passione said "fuck it, we need to give something to old fans" and screwed a bit of pacing). Like, you don't know how many times you can die, you don't know why it's happening, yet you do know who is(or in this case was) the reason behind your death, and you do know what to do to prevent "tragedy" to happen. Yet you decide to: give Keichi too vague "hint" in the LAST DAY before the tragedy(he should've already been at L4 here if it was Onikakushi world, mind you) in Onidamashi. To tell Keichi give the doll to Mion, but didn't tell him and Shion to not go to Saiguden, and insted INSULTING HIM THE NEXT DAY(and I must say, Mion killing Rika after such a shitty act is deserved). And you keep bitching about "it doesn't make any sense! Why is this happening, I've done everything I could!!!" Bullshit Anyway, you forgot the reason that she gets mad at him for telling her the kitties story...which was her own creation. I am not angry at all about whatever she did at St Lucia. But holy fuck her actions AND the lack of them really pisses me off. |
| Gosh darn it, these recaps are annoying as hell. |
MadaoPriest said: Hulio said: God knows what R07 is thinking... or was thinking, but I'm pretty sure he's not considering your sudden idea of " the knowledge would break her". It all depends. Whenever Satoko’s in a major emotional bind - trauma apparent - she copes by calling for Nii-nii to come save her. In a world where Satoko’s already happy, I definitely think she’d have an easier time accepting that her brother’s in a coma, the final stage of Hinamizawa-syndrome and probably untreatable. In a state of emotional discomfort? I personally think it would break Satoko’s coping mechanism, meaning she’d have to confront reality. For good, and for worse. Of course it didn’t break Gou Satoko, she’s already gone through 100 years of memories, and tried countless times to convince Rika to not go to St. Lucia - dying over and over - all fruitlessly. I’m not arguing that it would break Satoko as she is now, not at all. But that, based on what I previously asserted, Rika might not be so odd to think so. It certainly - from her POV - would force her to confront reality. But perhaps now wouldn’t be… that great a time. Yeah, it depends. But aside of the Tatari arcs, isn't she being seemingly happy in general? Not to talk about, post Matsuri older Satoko.. And yes the biggest reason it definitely didn't break Satoko must have been seeing all the fragments, but nonetheless, it didn't break her. There is 0 evidence it would break her, and 1 flimsy proof it wouldn't. Regardless of everything, it's possible it never (or atleast in most fragments) would have broken her - but that's as far as that argument goes. It's still a fact that Rika isn't doing anything, not trying and probably not even thinking. If she had, let's say "supernatural" understanding of Satoko's being, she wouldn't only know it wouldn't break her (as it didn't), but would also notice the obvious changes in her behaviour. - Which is something she obviously doesn't have. There's more point to argue that she actually doesn't even know her. Namiszon said: These aren't even recaps good sir.Gosh darn it, these recaps are annoying as hell. Just imagine having actual recaps... |
| Intelligent gets through situations which wise avoids. |
| I like how Satoko's entire plan hinges on Rika never having a proper conversation with Teppei which would expose the fact that Satoko is a looper, a plan which wouldn't yield any significant progress toward Satoko's room temp IQ plan to stay with Rika. There is no reason why Rika would still keep up her facade at this point of the story and not just confront Teppei immediately if she even cares. It's like watching a show where two loopers face off against each other to see who's the more incompetent one. Like the rest of the series, everything is bent backward to emulate every memorable scene in the original even if it makes zero fucking sense under the context of the new story. There is nothing wrong with liking the show but I have no idea how anyone with more braincells than Satoko and Rika combined can still think that this show has consistent and good writing. |
Si1verR0se said: WECE said: Actually Lambda Delta is actually Satoko and Ryukishi07 stated that her similarity to Takano was nothing more than a red herring used to throw off readers who read Higurashi first. So can you give us the exact interview where Ryukishi stated that, please? I havent heard about this interview either. @WECE care to post a link? If it is the case, its kinda weird for Lambda to say that she doesnt know how Higurashi ends, and how she hasnt met Featherine. and other bits of contradicting info. This might all be a marketing trick in the end. Get new fans -> Throw in Eua -> Push new Fans to read Umineko -> Make Vague references to Ciconia -> New Fans read Ciconia. -> Ryu gets money. |
ChargecoulombAug 16, 2021 10:55 PM
WECE said: I Found it on this Link : (On Trivia Section) https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/Lambdadelta This Link is also relevant for further info : (Also On Trivia Section) https://07th-expansion.fandom.com/wiki/Lambdadelta Theres this "he stated that Lambdadelta and Takano aren't necessarily as connected .." But what about Satoko? The wording is a bit weird. 'Necessarily as connected' so there is a connection? But it is not as strong. It does fit with Lambda and Takano. Takano is not Lambda. Takano is a peice that Lambda favours. Because Takano embodies all the qualities that Lambda likes. She is the one who uses her in Hotarubi after all. What he says here is that The relationship between Lambda and Takano is not the same as Bern and Rika. Which is true. Bern and Rika have a stronger connection because Bern is a collection of dead Rikas. Lambda is a passing witch, who liked Takano so she gave her certainty (and maybe also borrowed her appearance) Later in the interview Ryu talks about appearances. I hate to break it to you but Satoko and Lambda have two different hair colors.... so yeah. Child Miyo Takano sprites look light years closer to Lambda than Satoko does.    I dont think even Ryuukishi knows what hes talking about. |
ChargecoulombAug 16, 2021 11:22 PM
WECE said: Chargecoulomb said: I havent heard about this interview either. @WECE care to post a link? If it is the case, its kinda weird for Lambda to say that she doesnt know how Higurashi ends, and how she hasnt met Featherine. and other bits of contradicting info. This might all be a marketing trick in the end. Get new fans -> Throw in Eua -> Push new Fans to read Umineko -> Make Vague references to Ciconia -> New Fans read Ciconia. -> Ryu gets money. This probably because Satoko lost inher last duel which makes her time loop in world without Rika... (And probably lost some of her memory) Well.. still waiting Sotsu's Ending to answer these question which makes Sotsu more interesting lol I updated my last post with it. Even with all the stuff against it. I wouldnt be suprised if Lambda ends up being Satoko. Ryuukishi can always retroactively change cannon, although whether thats a good idea or not. I dunno. |
ChargecoulombAug 16, 2021 11:26 PM
WECE said: Chargecoulomb said: Theres this "he stated that Lambdadelta and Takano aren't necessarily as connected .." But what about Satoko? The wording is a bit weird. 'Necessarily as connected' so there is a connection? But it is not as strong. It does fit with Lambda and Takano. Takano is not Lambda. Takano is a peice that Lambda favours. Because Takano embodies all the qualities that Lambda likes. She is the one who uses her in Hotarubi after all. What he says here is that The relationship between Lambda and Takano is not the same as Bern and Rika. Which is true. Bern and Rika have a stronger connection because Bern is a collection of dead Rikas. Lambda is a passing witch, who liked Takano so she gave her certainty (and maybe also borrowed her appearance) This might implies that Takano Serves as Red Herring (To Misguide us to think that LambdaDelta is Takano) Satoko also already see all Timeloop that Rika has experienced which is why Satoko find Takano Amusing and she used Takano for her favor. (By Stealing The Parasite) Satoko as Witch of Certainty is shown how she is able to kill herself just to reach her ideal scenario. And Satoko sudden Personality change is actually not sudden... (Because she has seen all of Rika's Timeloop which is takes eternity to accomplish) You missed my point. Lambda was never Takano. Kinda weird that you would somehow become a witch and then would give yourself certainty to become a witch. If it's Satoko, it's weird that she would mess with Takano, because without her, Rika and Bern wouldn't have become witches. Witches interact with Kakera non linearly. So it kinda could be possible. But why would you mess with your own basis for existence? |
ChargecoulombAug 16, 2021 11:42 PM
WECE said: And I didn't said that Takano is LambdaDelta lol... I only said that Ryukishi07 tries to Misguide readers to think that... In the last episode (Sotsu Eps 8) Eua said that Satoko is turning into a Witch probably because she does something that Human won't do which is Doing Absurd Thing to ensure her Certainty... Rika probably also becoming a witch because she clinging to the Miracle that most human would already desperate in those situations... Satoko sudden outburst (When she shouting "Nii Nii") in latest episode maybe implies that her Humanity side tries to Oppose her Witch side. But this is just my theory... Gonna wait for other episode of Sotsu... Lol Lets start with what Eua says. Witch has a different meaning in Higurashi when compared to Umineko. The term appeared in Higu before it did in Umineko. 'Witch' in Higu is something akin to a good / capable looper, rather than a meta being. Rika calls herself a witch as well. Bernkastel already exists in Higurashi. She already conversed with Rika as a seperate being in Matsuri. And they went their seperate ways in Saikoroshi. Its unlikely this Rika will become Bernkastel as well, having two Berns seems to be stretching it. Crack theory - Since Higurashi exists as a story in the world of Umineko. Heck Battler has read it, and Maria watches it. Bern and Lambda could simply be taking names and appearances from a piece of fiction that Battler is familliar with. Heck even the Mii~ Nipa~ could be Bern reminding Battler how Rika escsped from her fate. From the way Bern and Lambda talk about it... its not that hard to assume. |
ChargecoulombAug 17, 2021 1:46 AM
WECE said: Thanks, now I realized that Lambda is actually Satoshi.Actually Lambda Delta is actually Satoko and Ryukishi07 stated that her similarity to Takano was nothing more than a red herring used to throw off readers who read Higurashi first. FYI : Lambda Delta represents 34 which also true for Takano and Satoko's Name More Info : https://www.reddit.com/r/Higurashinonakakoroni/comments/lsdzlp/satokos_name_34/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body Chargecoulomb said: Satoshi was in Coma so he doesn't know how it ends, also haven't seen Featherine... Damn this is starting to make perfect sense.If it is the case, its kinda weird for Lambda to say that she doesnt know how Higurashi ends, and how she hasnt met Featherine. and other bits of contradicting info. WECE said: Sooo, what happens to Saikoroshi?So Rika might Ascended or Reincarnated into Frederica Berncastel (Reincarnated doesn't implies Linear Timeline - You might wanna Read Manga "Spirit Circle" to understand what I Meant) WECE said: GouSotsu definitely doesn't deserve a higher score. But what comes to further adaptations, I doubt that's a problem either. Atleast don't give us Passione Umineko pls.I tried to protect Gou&Sotsu because It actually is really good and also Umineko Might get Readapted into Anime again if Gou&Sotsu get High Review Score :'( |
| Intelligent gets through situations which wise avoids. |
| It really is "interesting" to see how not only have Gou/Sotsu entirely destroyed Satoko's character, but also turned Teppei of all people into the most sympathetic one... |
luinthoronAug 18, 2021 10:57 AM
 |
Keirik said: Another week, another episode that's 99% recycled shit with like two lines of new information. This anime genuinely thinks it's interesting enough to make me watch the same thing three times |
 |
| I thought this episode would be boring. It actually brought up a lot of emotions from inside us. Who would've thought that Teppei Houjou actually can become a family man if he wants to. Look at him wearing a pink apron with flowery pattern. He is so cute. Keiichi dreamed about Satoko? I wonder if it was a vision from a different world. Rena's reaction to it is as always so cute, though. Hauuuu~~ The heartwrenching thing is how Satoko lied and acted to both sides. She lied to her uncle that she was bullied by the whole village, including her friends and Chie-sensei, and she also acted in front of her friends as if she was actually bullied by her uncle. It's so excruciating. And the scene of Satoko went "frenzy" kept making me shivered just like before, only for different reasons. Before, it was because of the thought of her actually being bullied by her uncle, but now it was because of how far she would lie and act to make her uncle the enemy of the whole village. |
 |
| Okay I'm ready to fast forward to the end of Gou where Satoko gets caught now. I've seen all I need to see of it was Satoko all along. I can't dislike her anymore than I do now. |
 |
| It's really quite interesting how adding just one more point of view can completely switch the roles of villain and good guy in a story. We know from Umineko. I'd say that at this point it's clearly a game between Satoko as TotallyNotFeatherine's pawn, and Rika, yet unclear whose pawn she is. I wouldn't be surprised if it's just Featherine playing against herself for the lulz, given the similarity between Hanyuu and her. |
abystoma2Sep 2, 2021 4:35 AM
You all need to watch Nami. |
| Wtf was with her rolling on the floor like that, it was hilarious but then again should they really be trying to make us laugh right now...? I'm starting to be convinced that whoever made this has only seen those 'all higurashi deaths' compilations on youtube, and never seen the OG anime or read higurashi or umineko's VNs. When I'm watching Gou/Sotsu I can almost hear the director's thought process of 'cute lolis laughing and going crazy, higurashi fans love this shit right?'. It's dumb and shallow. Starting to get annoyed with Eua, apart from the witch comment all she does is sit there and laugh, it was exciting to see her at first but she's not exactly adding anything of substance anymore Also I really hope this isn't Lambda's origin story because that wouldn't make any logical sense lol Edit: after a rewatch I feel like Rika is starting to catch on at this point. Her facial expression during Satoko's freakout didn't seem sympathetic at all, unlike everyone else's |
iiKrinaSep 4, 2021 6:59 PM
 |
iiKrina said: You are truly amusing child of man.Starting to get annoyed with Eua, apart from the witch comment all she does is sit there and laugh, it was exciting to see her at first but she's not exactly adding anything of substance anymore Edit: after a rewatch I feel like Rika is starting to catch on at this point. Her facial expression during Satoko's freakout didn't seem sympathetic at all, unlike everyone else's Iirc someone pointed out how Rika's expression was pretty much the same in Tatarigoroshi aswell.Anyways, if I were repeating the same thing for hundred times, I guess I would lose my sympathetic expressions aswell. I doubt she really catched up anything at this point yet, after all, she's still gonna die 5 times before she's gonna trap her. |
| Intelligent gets through situations which wise avoids. |
Si1verR0se said: Now this idiots completely butchered Lambda, sheesh. How does Umineko fans still loving this shit? I don't like it at all. And even at the time of creating umineko Lambda was literally a little takano she even had the same design. I think ryukishi later thought "oh this idea could be cooler and gou+Sotsu was made" |
| The way they just set up the manipulation is just soo funny but so unsettling. Its giving me mixed feelings. |
 Behold of my awesomeness~ controversial and/or sensitive topics likely devolve into the same repetitive, derogatory, abusive, and harassing comments can no longer be posted. But my feels. |
More topics from this board
Poll: » Higurashi no Naku Koro ni Sotsu Episode 15 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )Stark700 - Sep 30, 2021 |
412 |
by Drinzen
»»
Feb 22, 4:37 AM |
|
Poll: » Higurashi no Naku Koro ni Sotsu Episode 14 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )Stark700 - Sep 23, 2021 |
395 |
by Drinzen
»»
Feb 22, 4:12 AM |
|
Poll: » Higurashi no Naku Koro ni Sotsu Episode 13 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 )Stark700 - Sep 16, 2021 |
215 |
by Drinzen
»»
Feb 22, 4:03 AM |
|
Poll: » Higurashi no Naku Koro ni Sotsu Episode 7 Discussion ( 1 2 3 )Stark700 - Aug 5, 2021 |
121 |
by Drinzen
»»
Feb 22, 3:05 AM |
|
Poll: » Higurashi no Naku Koro ni Sotsu Episode 4 Discussion ( 1 2 3 )Stark700 - Jul 15, 2021 |
124 |
by xxdaisiesxx
»»
Jan 17, 1:44 PM |