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Jul 29, 2021 12:40 PM
#101
| I love DBZ. It's a big part of my childhood , it's definitely hard to recommend , because i assume everyone has already seen it |
Jul 29, 2021 4:54 PM
#102
| OG DB is good, although I genuinely don't remember much. Goku is a flat character though, there's nothing going for him and his growth is all over the place. DBZ is kinda bad, it was around that point where every arc villain was just a guy who wanted to destroy Earth. Not a fan of watching characters power up and defeat random villain #3924389275 who wants to destroy the earth or the universe for the 81281742109579017328th time. The characters do develop but imo, in comparison to a lot of series, the development is quite mediocre too. Krillin is pretty static, Roshi just doesn't exist in DBZ and shows back up in DBS and Piccolo had a good character arc but then vanished out of existence. Every time Akira Toriyama makes an interesting character (Tien, Krillin and Piccolo), they just fade out of existence. The character imbalance is one of the major flaws for this series. That, an plot wise, there's nothing too interesting. Frieza Saga might have had the strongest plot but that's about as much credit I can give this series for the plot department. And the author also has the need to force evil into every villain and then make them turn good, as if that reptitiveness constitutes for characterization. Buu would have been a much better antagonist if he didn't go through the whole evil stuff and Toriyama actually utilized him creatively. Pacing is also garbage but I guess that's why Kai exists. That's pretty much every complaint I can think of rn |
Jul 29, 2021 5:10 PM
#103
| Yeah, I kind of agree. A lot of the people who don't give it a chance are the ones who have seen all of the parodies and base their opinions of it on that. There was one guy in my friend group who would vehemently rail on it, saying how stupid it was, but then we took him to see Resurrection F and he ended up enjoying it. |
 This ground is soiled by those before me and their lies. I dare not look up for on me I feel their eyes |
Jul 29, 2021 5:45 PM
#104
| Still love the Dragon Ball Series and everything it represents to this day. Every villain doesn't need a tragic backstory and a deep raison d'etre for us to love them. Dragon Ball Z remembered that well. However, DBS could have taken some notes from Boruto so two heroes don't carry the entire show... |
Jul 29, 2021 6:05 PM
#105
Buggbot3000 said: OG DB is good, although I genuinely don't remember much. Goku is a flat character though, there's nothing going for him and his growth is all over the place. DBZ is kinda bad, it was around that point where every arc villain was just a guy who wanted to destroy Earth. Not a fan of watching characters power up and defeat random villain #3924389275 who wants to destroy the earth or the universe for the 81281742109579017328th time. The characters do develop but imo, in comparison to a lot of series, the development is quite mediocre too. Krillin is pretty static, Roshi just doesn't exist in DBZ and shows back up in DBS and Piccolo had a good character arc but then vanished out of existence. Every time Akira Toriyama makes an interesting character (Tien, Krillin and Piccolo), they just fade out of existence. The character imbalance is one of the major flaws for this series. That, an plot wise, there's nothing too interesting. Frieza Saga might have had the strongest plot but that's about as much credit I can give this series for the plot department. And the author also has the need to force evil into every villain and then make them turn good, as if that reptitiveness constitutes for characterization. Buu would have been a much better antagonist if he didn't go through the whole evil stuff and Toriyama actually utilized him creatively. Pacing is also garbage but I guess that's why Kai exists. That's pretty much every complaint I can think of rn i have to disagree the only villians in z whose goal was it to destroy earth was Buu. Cells original goal was to become a perfect being and then eventually wanted to blow up the planet. Frieza's goal was to get the dragon ball on Namek he wanted to expand his empire he only blew up planets that he would see as threat the only reason Frieza wanted to destroy Earth was to get revenge on Goku. I don't really see the issue with Goku because we follow his story from him being a child to getting married etc. Picollo actually has alot of development in multiple arcs such as namek,sayin, cell, buu arc,and picollo jr arc. Tien has 3 arcs in db and in the cell and sayin arc as well. Krillin had a major role in almost every arc besides buu arc. Rochi was relevant through out all of db he may not have got as much time in z but he was developed for a long time. The only characters that seemed to fade out was Launch, Chouzu, and Yamcha. But yamcha is still used a bit |
Jul 29, 2021 6:07 PM
#106
Mist878 said: Still love the Dragon Ball Series and everything it represents to this day. Every villain doesn't need a tragic backstory and a deep raison d'etre for us to love them. Dragon Ball Z remembered that well. However, DBS could have taken some notes from Boruto so two heroes don't carry the entire show... yeah im not a huge fan of dbs but i think it actually gave some characters in later arcs some screen time such as tournament of power and goku black arc |
Jul 29, 2021 6:36 PM
#107
soccer6131 said: Buggbot3000 said: OG DB is good, although I genuinely don't remember much. Goku is a flat character though, there's nothing going for him and his growth is all over the place. DBZ is kinda bad, it was around that point where every arc villain was just a guy who wanted to destroy Earth. Not a fan of watching characters power up and defeat random villain #3924389275 who wants to destroy the earth or the universe for the 81281742109579017328th time. The characters do develop but imo, in comparison to a lot of series, the development is quite mediocre too. Krillin is pretty static, Roshi just doesn't exist in DBZ and shows back up in DBS and Piccolo had a good character arc but then vanished out of existence. Every time Akira Toriyama makes an interesting character (Tien, Krillin and Piccolo), they just fade out of existence. The character imbalance is one of the major flaws for this series. That, an plot wise, there's nothing too interesting. Frieza Saga might have had the strongest plot but that's about as much credit I can give this series for the plot department. And the author also has the need to force evil into every villain and then make them turn good, as if that reptitiveness constitutes for characterization. Buu would have been a much better antagonist if he didn't go through the whole evil stuff and Toriyama actually utilized him creatively. Pacing is also garbage but I guess that's why Kai exists. That's pretty much every complaint I can think of rn i have to disagree the only villians in z whose goal was it to destroy earth was Buu. Cells original goal was to become a perfect being and then eventually wanted to blow up the planet. Frieza's goal was to get the dragon ball on Namek he wanted to expand his empire he only blew up planets that he would see as threat the only reason Frieza wanted to destroy Earth was to get revenge on Goku. I don't really see the issue with Goku because we follow his story from him being a child to getting married etc. Picollo actually has alot of development in multiple arcs such as namek,sayin, cell, buu arc,and picollo jr arc. Tien has 3 arcs in db and in the cell and sayin arc as well. Krillin had a major role in almost every arc besides buu arc. Rochi was relevant through out all of db he may not have got as much time in z but he was developed for a long time. The only characters that seemed to fade out was Launch, Chouzu, and Yamcha. But yamcha is still used a bit at the end of the day, all of these characters have the motive of destroying planets/universes. The issue with Goku is that his growth is unsteady and all over the place. Sure, whatever little development he has in OG DB is fine (going from a child to an adult isn't development lol, it's changing your ideals or maybe maturing emotionally or anything, goku remains the same when he's an adult). But in DBZ, you'd think that he wouldn't just give Cell a senzu bean and do all of those things. It's really offputting and dumb, especially everything he's went through. He goes from the guy he was in OG DB to a mindless fighting robot. His characterization is so painful, and I hate it. Tien, Krillin, Roshi and Piccolo are always overshadowed by Goku and Vegeta. Remember that time in the Saiyan Saga where these guys (excluding roshi) were just used as punching bags by the main villains, to let us know that they're big and bad and scary? The same thing happens in Frieza Saga, and then again in Cell Saga. It's so boring and repetitive, there's no new creativity with them. Again, writing wise they're like the best characters but in comparison to other anime, I think they fall behind a lot. And this is mainly because Goku ALWAYS has to be in the spotlight. If you want to bring up the Cell Saga, just remember what happened to Gohan in the arc after Cell. All of it is just really messy, and I think DBZ is one of my least favorite stories writing wise, the characters and the enjoyment factor are probably the only things saving it. That, and the fact that I watched this show a year ago, when my standards were really low. |
Jul 29, 2021 6:59 PM
#108
Buggbot3000 said: soccer6131 said: Buggbot3000 said: OG DB is good, although I genuinely don't remember much. Goku is a flat character though, there's nothing going for him and his growth is all over the place. DBZ is kinda bad, it was around that point where every arc villain was just a guy who wanted to destroy Earth. Not a fan of watching characters power up and defeat random villain #3924389275 who wants to destroy the earth or the universe for the 81281742109579017328th time. The characters do develop but imo, in comparison to a lot of series, the development is quite mediocre too. Krillin is pretty static, Roshi just doesn't exist in DBZ and shows back up in DBS and Piccolo had a good character arc but then vanished out of existence. Every time Akira Toriyama makes an interesting character (Tien, Krillin and Piccolo), they just fade out of existence. The character imbalance is one of the major flaws for this series. That, an plot wise, there's nothing too interesting. Frieza Saga might have had the strongest plot but that's about as much credit I can give this series for the plot department. And the author also has the need to force evil into every villain and then make them turn good, as if that reptitiveness constitutes for characterization. Buu would have been a much better antagonist if he didn't go through the whole evil stuff and Toriyama actually utilized him creatively. Pacing is also garbage but I guess that's why Kai exists. That's pretty much every complaint I can think of rn i have to disagree the only villians in z whose goal was it to destroy earth was Buu. Cells original goal was to become a perfect being and then eventually wanted to blow up the planet. Frieza's goal was to get the dragon ball on Namek he wanted to expand his empire he only blew up planets that he would see as threat the only reason Frieza wanted to destroy Earth was to get revenge on Goku. I don't really see the issue with Goku because we follow his story from him being a child to getting married etc. Picollo actually has alot of development in multiple arcs such as namek,sayin, cell, buu arc,and picollo jr arc. Tien has 3 arcs in db and in the cell and sayin arc as well. Krillin had a major role in almost every arc besides buu arc. Rochi was relevant through out all of db he may not have got as much time in z but he was developed for a long time. The only characters that seemed to fade out was Launch, Chouzu, and Yamcha. But yamcha is still used a bit at the end of the day, all of these characters have the motive of destroying planets/universes. The issue with Goku is that his growth is unsteady and all over the place. Sure, whatever little development he has in OG DB is fine (going from a child to an adult isn't development lol, it's changing your ideals or maybe maturing emotionally or anything, goku remains the same when he's an adult). But in DBZ, you'd think that he wouldn't just give Cell a senzu bean and do all of those things. It's really offputting and dumb, especially everything he's went through. He goes from the guy he was in OG DB to a mindless fighting robot. His characterization is so painful, and I hate it. Tien, Krillin, Roshi and Piccolo are always overshadowed by Goku and Vegeta. Remember that time in the Saiyan Saga where these guys (excluding roshi) were just used as punching bags by the main villains, to let us know that they're big and bad and scary? The same thing happens in Frieza Saga, and then again in Cell Saga. It's so boring and repetitive, there's no new creativity with them. Again, writing wise they're like the best characters but in comparison to other anime, I think they fall behind a lot. And this is mainly because Goku ALWAYS has to be in the spotlight. If you want to bring up the Cell Saga, just remember what happened to Gohan in the arc after Cell. All of it is just really messy, and I think DBZ is one of my least favorite stories writing wise, the characters and the enjoyment factor are probably the only things saving it. That, and the fact that I watched this show a year ago, when my standards were really low. goku always believed in a fair fight that has always been a thing he did in og db he did it in cell games. Not all the villians in z and db have a plan to destroy the universe or planets. I would disagree about picollo and krillin being overshadowed by goku and vegeta. Sure they may have not been as strong as the main villians but they had importance to narritives of the story. The whole reason cell got to perfect form was because vegeta had to much arrogance nad krillin hesitated to kill android 18. Krillin fought against frieza to hold off until goku got there. He defeated a ginyu force member with gohan. Sure krillin was never a character to win a major battlee but he had plot significance. As for gohan after cell arc, gohan always wanted to be a scholar he didn't want to be a fighter like his dad. He fought cuz he had to not cuz he wanted to. However we got to see what he could of been if he followed down the path of his father. I think everyone would agree gohan would be cooler if he went down the same path as goku. but thats not what he really wanted he also steps up to be a father figure for goten. Picollo raised gohan in gokus absence. Sacrafices himself to protect gohan. He goes against 17 he fights buu and got absorbed which is why he lost, he fights frieza. Him and goku both took down raditz. |
Jul 30, 2021 7:35 AM
#109
soccer6131 said: Buggbot3000 said: soccer6131 said: Buggbot3000 said: OG DB is good, although I genuinely don't remember much. Goku is a flat character though, there's nothing going for him and his growth is all over the place. DBZ is kinda bad, it was around that point where every arc villain was just a guy who wanted to destroy Earth. Not a fan of watching characters power up and defeat random villain #3924389275 who wants to destroy the earth or the universe for the 81281742109579017328th time. The characters do develop but imo, in comparison to a lot of series, the development is quite mediocre too. Krillin is pretty static, Roshi just doesn't exist in DBZ and shows back up in DBS and Piccolo had a good character arc but then vanished out of existence. Every time Akira Toriyama makes an interesting character (Tien, Krillin and Piccolo), they just fade out of existence. The character imbalance is one of the major flaws for this series. That, an plot wise, there's nothing too interesting. Frieza Saga might have had the strongest plot but that's about as much credit I can give this series for the plot department. And the author also has the need to force evil into every villain and then make them turn good, as if that reptitiveness constitutes for characterization. Buu would have been a much better antagonist if he didn't go through the whole evil stuff and Toriyama actually utilized him creatively. Pacing is also garbage but I guess that's why Kai exists. That's pretty much every complaint I can think of rn i have to disagree the only villians in z whose goal was it to destroy earth was Buu. Cells original goal was to become a perfect being and then eventually wanted to blow up the planet. Frieza's goal was to get the dragon ball on Namek he wanted to expand his empire he only blew up planets that he would see as threat the only reason Frieza wanted to destroy Earth was to get revenge on Goku. I don't really see the issue with Goku because we follow his story from him being a child to getting married etc. Picollo actually has alot of development in multiple arcs such as namek,sayin, cell, buu arc,and picollo jr arc. Tien has 3 arcs in db and in the cell and sayin arc as well. Krillin had a major role in almost every arc besides buu arc. Rochi was relevant through out all of db he may not have got as much time in z but he was developed for a long time. The only characters that seemed to fade out was Launch, Chouzu, and Yamcha. But yamcha is still used a bit at the end of the day, all of these characters have the motive of destroying planets/universes. The issue with Goku is that his growth is unsteady and all over the place. Sure, whatever little development he has in OG DB is fine (going from a child to an adult isn't development lol, it's changing your ideals or maybe maturing emotionally or anything, goku remains the same when he's an adult). But in DBZ, you'd think that he wouldn't just give Cell a senzu bean and do all of those things. It's really offputting and dumb, especially everything he's went through. He goes from the guy he was in OG DB to a mindless fighting robot. His characterization is so painful, and I hate it. Tien, Krillin, Roshi and Piccolo are always overshadowed by Goku and Vegeta. Remember that time in the Saiyan Saga where these guys (excluding roshi) were just used as punching bags by the main villains, to let us know that they're big and bad and scary? The same thing happens in Frieza Saga, and then again in Cell Saga. It's so boring and repetitive, there's no new creativity with them. Again, writing wise they're like the best characters but in comparison to other anime, I think they fall behind a lot. And this is mainly because Goku ALWAYS has to be in the spotlight. If you want to bring up the Cell Saga, just remember what happened to Gohan in the arc after Cell. All of it is just really messy, and I think DBZ is one of my least favorite stories writing wise, the characters and the enjoyment factor are probably the only things saving it. That, and the fact that I watched this show a year ago, when my standards were really low. goku always believed in a fair fight that has always been a thing he did in og db he did it in cell games. Not all the villians in z and db have a plan to destroy the universe or planets. I would disagree about picollo and krillin being overshadowed by goku and vegeta. Sure they may have not been as strong as the main villians but they had importance to narritives of the story. The whole reason cell got to perfect form was because vegeta had to much arrogance nad krillin hesitated to kill android 18. Krillin fought against frieza to hold off until goku got there. He defeated a ginyu force member with gohan. Sure krillin was never a character to win a major battlee but he had plot significance. As for gohan after cell arc, gohan always wanted to be a scholar he didn't want to be a fighter like his dad. He fought cuz he had to not cuz he wanted to. However we got to see what he could of been if he followed down the path of his father. I think everyone would agree gohan would be cooler if he went down the same path as goku. but thats not what he really wanted he also steps up to be a father figure for goten. Picollo raised gohan in gokus absence. Sacrafices himself to protect gohan. He goes against 17 he fights buu and got absorbed which is why he lost, he fights frieza. Him and goku both took down raditz. A "fair fight" isn't throwing the fight itself and giving your enemy a major advantage. Especially after everything Goku went through in OG DB, the whole senzu bean thing is dumb. Narrative wise, Krillin and Piccolo simply just exist so Toriyama can show how powerful the enemy is. They're present within the story, sure, but after the midway point of an arc, they're just pushed to the side. As for Gohan, fair enough, but wasn't the only reason he lost because he got cocky and didn't want to end Buu in one instant? Isn't this the EXACT same thing that happens in the Cell Saga (I could be wrong but I swear that the reason why Goku had to do what he did was because Gohan just kept abusing Buu and then the detention thing happened)? Gohan hasn't even grown or learned from his mistakes either lmao, and the only reason this is the case is because Toriyama wanted Goku to get the spotlight once again. The characters just keep getting lazier and lazier after a certain point, it's not even funny. And by Buu Saga, Tien and Chiaotzu are pretty much just gone. But even putting character writing aside, these characters still lack in comparison to a lot of shows. With a show this long, you naturally have to expect some form of development, but a lot of it just boils down to villain becomes good guy. There's nothing really interesting about the way these characters change, because most of the time, it's always the same formula with a bit of other stuff sprinkled on. To appreciate characters, your audience has to see new and interesting perspectives. We've already seen Piccolo get a redemption arc, we don't need to see Vegeta, Buu, and even Frieza (DBS) to some extent go the same route. |
Jul 30, 2021 10:33 AM
#110
Buggbot3000 said: soccer6131 said: Buggbot3000 said: soccer6131 said: Buggbot3000 said: OG DB is good, although I genuinely don't remember much. Goku is a flat character though, there's nothing going for him and his growth is all over the place. DBZ is kinda bad, it was around that point where every arc villain was just a guy who wanted to destroy Earth. Not a fan of watching characters power up and defeat random villain #3924389275 who wants to destroy the earth or the universe for the 81281742109579017328th time. The characters do develop but imo, in comparison to a lot of series, the development is quite mediocre too. Krillin is pretty static, Roshi just doesn't exist in DBZ and shows back up in DBS and Piccolo had a good character arc but then vanished out of existence. Every time Akira Toriyama makes an interesting character (Tien, Krillin and Piccolo), they just fade out of existence. The character imbalance is one of the major flaws for this series. That, an plot wise, there's nothing too interesting. Frieza Saga might have had the strongest plot but that's about as much credit I can give this series for the plot department. And the author also has the need to force evil into every villain and then make them turn good, as if that reptitiveness constitutes for characterization. Buu would have been a much better antagonist if he didn't go through the whole evil stuff and Toriyama actually utilized him creatively. Pacing is also garbage but I guess that's why Kai exists. That's pretty much every complaint I can think of rn i have to disagree the only villians in z whose goal was it to destroy earth was Buu. Cells original goal was to become a perfect being and then eventually wanted to blow up the planet. Frieza's goal was to get the dragon ball on Namek he wanted to expand his empire he only blew up planets that he would see as threat the only reason Frieza wanted to destroy Earth was to get revenge on Goku. I don't really see the issue with Goku because we follow his story from him being a child to getting married etc. Picollo actually has alot of development in multiple arcs such as namek,sayin, cell, buu arc,and picollo jr arc. Tien has 3 arcs in db and in the cell and sayin arc as well. Krillin had a major role in almost every arc besides buu arc. Rochi was relevant through out all of db he may not have got as much time in z but he was developed for a long time. The only characters that seemed to fade out was Launch, Chouzu, and Yamcha. But yamcha is still used a bit at the end of the day, all of these characters have the motive of destroying planets/universes. The issue with Goku is that his growth is unsteady and all over the place. Sure, whatever little development he has in OG DB is fine (going from a child to an adult isn't development lol, it's changing your ideals or maybe maturing emotionally or anything, goku remains the same when he's an adult). But in DBZ, you'd think that he wouldn't just give Cell a senzu bean and do all of those things. It's really offputting and dumb, especially everything he's went through. He goes from the guy he was in OG DB to a mindless fighting robot. His characterization is so painful, and I hate it. Tien, Krillin, Roshi and Piccolo are always overshadowed by Goku and Vegeta. Remember that time in the Saiyan Saga where these guys (excluding roshi) were just used as punching bags by the main villains, to let us know that they're big and bad and scary? The same thing happens in Frieza Saga, and then again in Cell Saga. It's so boring and repetitive, there's no new creativity with them. Again, writing wise they're like the best characters but in comparison to other anime, I think they fall behind a lot. And this is mainly because Goku ALWAYS has to be in the spotlight. If you want to bring up the Cell Saga, just remember what happened to Gohan in the arc after Cell. All of it is just really messy, and I think DBZ is one of my least favorite stories writing wise, the characters and the enjoyment factor are probably the only things saving it. That, and the fact that I watched this show a year ago, when my standards were really low. goku always believed in a fair fight that has always been a thing he did in og db he did it in cell games. Not all the villians in z and db have a plan to destroy the universe or planets. I would disagree about picollo and krillin being overshadowed by goku and vegeta. Sure they may have not been as strong as the main villians but they had importance to narritives of the story. The whole reason cell got to perfect form was because vegeta had to much arrogance nad krillin hesitated to kill android 18. Krillin fought against frieza to hold off until goku got there. He defeated a ginyu force member with gohan. Sure krillin was never a character to win a major battlee but he had plot significance. As for gohan after cell arc, gohan always wanted to be a scholar he didn't want to be a fighter like his dad. He fought cuz he had to not cuz he wanted to. However we got to see what he could of been if he followed down the path of his father. I think everyone would agree gohan would be cooler if he went down the same path as goku. but thats not what he really wanted he also steps up to be a father figure for goten. Picollo raised gohan in gokus absence. Sacrafices himself to protect gohan. He goes against 17 he fights buu and got absorbed which is why he lost, he fights frieza. Him and goku both took down raditz. A "fair fight" isn't throwing the fight itself and giving your enemy a major advantage. Especially after everything Goku went through in OG DB, the whole senzu bean thing is dumb. Narrative wise, Krillin and Piccolo simply just exist so Toriyama can show how powerful the enemy is. They're present within the story, sure, but after the midway point of an arc, they're just pushed to the side. As for Gohan, fair enough, but wasn't the only reason he lost because he got cocky and didn't want to end Buu in one instant? Isn't this the EXACT same thing that happens in the Cell Saga (I could be wrong but I swear that the reason why Goku had to do what he did was because Gohan just kept abusing Buu and then the detention thing happened)? Gohan hasn't even grown or learned from his mistakes either lmao, and the only reason this is the case is because Toriyama wanted Goku to get the spotlight once again. The characters just keep getting lazier and lazier after a certain point, it's not even funny. And by Buu Saga, Tien and Chiaotzu are pretty much just gone. But even putting character writing aside, these characters still lack in comparison to a lot of shows. With a show this long, you naturally have to expect some form of development, but a lot of it just boils down to villain becomes good guy. There's nothing really interesting about the way these characters change, because most of the time, it's always the same formula with a bit of other stuff sprinkled on. To appreciate characters, your audience has to see new and interesting perspectives. We've already seen Piccolo get a redemption arc, we don't need to see Vegeta, Buu, and even Frieza (DBS) to some extent go the same route. how was goku throwing a senzu bean to cell to make it an unfair fight after he fought him. senzu beans only restore someon back to before injury andd covers stamina. saying a character get pushed away in a middle of an arc doesnt really mean much goku and vegeta are stronger than most people in Z. Picollo stays relevant due to him teaching gohan. In the buu arc he teaches goten and trunks how to fuse. And ill say it again tien and chiatzu had multiple arcs in the og db and early parts of z. Gohan also was fighting buu and winning but to defeat buu u have to destroy him on a molecular level. Buu then self destructs however no one is hurt by that. The issue was goten and trunks fusing to fight buu and not allowwing gohan to do it. Thats when gotenks gets absorbdd and problems begin for gohan In the fight before he absorbs them gohan takes goten trunks and picollo away from buus self destruction nothing gohan would have done could have prevented that. Picollo and Vegeta had very different redemption arcs. Picollo did it because he cared about gohan. Vegeta does really get redeemed until the buu arc. He was in denial in who he was because he could never beat goku. Vegeta didnt really care about earth i mean its pretty obvious when he allowed cell to become his perfect form. He also allowed to be controled by bahbadi to defeat goku. The only reason he becomes good is because of Trunks. He then sacrafics him self to defeat buu. Unless ur talking about fat buu who understands the value of life after protecting a dog. And the only reason he becomes good is because h expells the evil out of hhis body creating evil buu. Much like with what Kami did with himself and picollo. Frieza in super is still evil he just does things that beneefit him he only tournament of power to be resurected. |
MotherMisatoJul 30, 2021 10:38 AM
Jul 30, 2021 10:48 AM
#111
soccer6131 said: Buggbot3000 said: soccer6131 said: Buggbot3000 said: soccer6131 said: Buggbot3000 said: OG DB is good, although I genuinely don't remember much. Goku is a flat character though, there's nothing going for him and his growth is all over the place. DBZ is kinda bad, it was around that point where every arc villain was just a guy who wanted to destroy Earth. Not a fan of watching characters power up and defeat random villain #3924389275 who wants to destroy the earth or the universe for the 81281742109579017328th time. The characters do develop but imo, in comparison to a lot of series, the development is quite mediocre too. Krillin is pretty static, Roshi just doesn't exist in DBZ and shows back up in DBS and Piccolo had a good character arc but then vanished out of existence. Every time Akira Toriyama makes an interesting character (Tien, Krillin and Piccolo), they just fade out of existence. The character imbalance is one of the major flaws for this series. That, an plot wise, there's nothing too interesting. Frieza Saga might have had the strongest plot but that's about as much credit I can give this series for the plot department. And the author also has the need to force evil into every villain and then make them turn good, as if that reptitiveness constitutes for characterization. Buu would have been a much better antagonist if he didn't go through the whole evil stuff and Toriyama actually utilized him creatively. Pacing is also garbage but I guess that's why Kai exists. That's pretty much every complaint I can think of rn i have to disagree the only villians in z whose goal was it to destroy earth was Buu. Cells original goal was to become a perfect being and then eventually wanted to blow up the planet. Frieza's goal was to get the dragon ball on Namek he wanted to expand his empire he only blew up planets that he would see as threat the only reason Frieza wanted to destroy Earth was to get revenge on Goku. I don't really see the issue with Goku because we follow his story from him being a child to getting married etc. Picollo actually has alot of development in multiple arcs such as namek,sayin, cell, buu arc,and picollo jr arc. Tien has 3 arcs in db and in the cell and sayin arc as well. Krillin had a major role in almost every arc besides buu arc. Rochi was relevant through out all of db he may not have got as much time in z but he was developed for a long time. The only characters that seemed to fade out was Launch, Chouzu, and Yamcha. But yamcha is still used a bit at the end of the day, all of these characters have the motive of destroying planets/universes. The issue with Goku is that his growth is unsteady and all over the place. Sure, whatever little development he has in OG DB is fine (going from a child to an adult isn't development lol, it's changing your ideals or maybe maturing emotionally or anything, goku remains the same when he's an adult). But in DBZ, you'd think that he wouldn't just give Cell a senzu bean and do all of those things. It's really offputting and dumb, especially everything he's went through. He goes from the guy he was in OG DB to a mindless fighting robot. His characterization is so painful, and I hate it. Tien, Krillin, Roshi and Piccolo are always overshadowed by Goku and Vegeta. Remember that time in the Saiyan Saga where these guys (excluding roshi) were just used as punching bags by the main villains, to let us know that they're big and bad and scary? The same thing happens in Frieza Saga, and then again in Cell Saga. It's so boring and repetitive, there's no new creativity with them. Again, writing wise they're like the best characters but in comparison to other anime, I think they fall behind a lot. And this is mainly because Goku ALWAYS has to be in the spotlight. If you want to bring up the Cell Saga, just remember what happened to Gohan in the arc after Cell. All of it is just really messy, and I think DBZ is one of my least favorite stories writing wise, the characters and the enjoyment factor are probably the only things saving it. That, and the fact that I watched this show a year ago, when my standards were really low. goku always believed in a fair fight that has always been a thing he did in og db he did it in cell games. Not all the villians in z and db have a plan to destroy the universe or planets. I would disagree about picollo and krillin being overshadowed by goku and vegeta. Sure they may have not been as strong as the main villians but they had importance to narritives of the story. The whole reason cell got to perfect form was because vegeta had to much arrogance nad krillin hesitated to kill android 18. Krillin fought against frieza to hold off until goku got there. He defeated a ginyu force member with gohan. Sure krillin was never a character to win a major battlee but he had plot significance. As for gohan after cell arc, gohan always wanted to be a scholar he didn't want to be a fighter like his dad. He fought cuz he had to not cuz he wanted to. However we got to see what he could of been if he followed down the path of his father. I think everyone would agree gohan would be cooler if he went down the same path as goku. but thats not what he really wanted he also steps up to be a father figure for goten. Picollo raised gohan in gokus absence. Sacrafices himself to protect gohan. He goes against 17 he fights buu and got absorbed which is why he lost, he fights frieza. Him and goku both took down raditz. A "fair fight" isn't throwing the fight itself and giving your enemy a major advantage. Especially after everything Goku went through in OG DB, the whole senzu bean thing is dumb. Narrative wise, Krillin and Piccolo simply just exist so Toriyama can show how powerful the enemy is. They're present within the story, sure, but after the midway point of an arc, they're just pushed to the side. As for Gohan, fair enough, but wasn't the only reason he lost because he got cocky and didn't want to end Buu in one instant? Isn't this the EXACT same thing that happens in the Cell Saga (I could be wrong but I swear that the reason why Goku had to do what he did was because Gohan just kept abusing Buu and then the detention thing happened)? Gohan hasn't even grown or learned from his mistakes either lmao, and the only reason this is the case is because Toriyama wanted Goku to get the spotlight once again. The characters just keep getting lazier and lazier after a certain point, it's not even funny. And by Buu Saga, Tien and Chiaotzu are pretty much just gone. But even putting character writing aside, these characters still lack in comparison to a lot of shows. With a show this long, you naturally have to expect some form of development, but a lot of it just boils down to villain becomes good guy. There's nothing really interesting about the way these characters change, because most of the time, it's always the same formula with a bit of other stuff sprinkled on. To appreciate characters, your audience has to see new and interesting perspectives. We've already seen Piccolo get a redemption arc, we don't need to see Vegeta, Buu, and even Frieza (DBS) to some extent go the same route. how was goku throwing a senzu bean to cell to make it an unfair fight after he fought him. saying a character get pushed away in a middle of an arc doesnt really mean much goku and vegeta are stronger than most people in Z. Picollo stays relevant due to him teaching gohan. In the buu arc he teaches goten and trunks how to fuse. And ill say it again tien and chiatzu had multiple arcs in the og db and early parts of z. Gohan also was fighting buu and winning but to defeat buu u have to destroy him on a molecular level. Buu then self destructs however no one is hurt by that. The issue was goten and trunks fusing to fight buu and not allowwing gohan to do it. Thats when gotenks gets absorbdd and problems begin for gohan In the fight before he absorbs them gohan takes goten trunks and picollo away from buus self destruction nothing gohan would have done could have prevented that. Picollo and Vegeta had very different redemption arcs. Picollo did it because he cared about gohan. Vegeta does really get redeemed until the buu arc. He was in denial in who he was because he could never beat goku. Vegeta didnt really care about earth i mean its pretty obvious when he allowed cell to become his perfect form. He also allowed to be controled by bahbadi to defeat goku. The only reason he becomes good is because of Trunks. He then sacrafics him self to defeat buu. Unless ur talking about fat buu who understands the value of life after protecting a dog. And the only reason he becomes good is because h expells the evil out of hhis body creating evil buu. Much like with what Kami did with himself and picollo. Frieza in super is still evil he just does things that beneefit him he only tournament of power to be resurected. ok I'm just gonna say it right now, none of this changes the fact that the DB characters are shallow in comparison to other series. Everyone knows that Goku becomes flat after OG DB, and squeezing out what little actions he does in DBZ does not constitute as actual development. Vegeta, Krillin and Piccolo are decent but there are so many other characters I can name that are better than these guys. That's mainly because characters from modern (and even older shonen like Jojo and One Piece) have richer characterization and they tend to change their ways of thinking (not from a literal bad to good perspective, but perhaps more complex) or even just mature in an interesting way. When put up against this, DBS Goku is pretty much the same as OG DB Goku, in fact he probably even regressed. Goku's still the same manchild, Vegeta is still always losing to Goku and being angry at stuff (although he has some neat characterization in DBS) and Krillin has went from Goku's rival to just this friend. DB being an action shonen means that every character needs to be somewhat near in strength, it can't just have two characters being miles ahead of the others. Things like these cause the side characters to fall out of the loop (Tien, Chiaotzu, Launch, Yamcha etc. are gone forever, please stop acting like they made the most out of what little screentime they had to begin with and were well developed) and a lot of it is because Toriyama didn't want to find a way to keep them powerful. Yamcha is literally reduced to a joke character, and the others just don't exist. I find it funny that you're defending the shows characters when they're nothing special and likely not a reason why this show is "underrated", I feel like even DBZ fans only enjoy DBZ for the mindless fights and random laser beams. |
Jul 30, 2021 12:30 PM
#112
Buggbot3000 said: soccer6131 said: Buggbot3000 said: soccer6131 said: Buggbot3000 said: soccer6131 said: Buggbot3000 said: OG DB is good, although I genuinely don't remember much. Goku is a flat character though, there's nothing going for him and his growth is all over the place. DBZ is kinda bad, it was around that point where every arc villain was just a guy who wanted to destroy Earth. Not a fan of watching characters power up and defeat random villain #3924389275 who wants to destroy the earth or the universe for the 81281742109579017328th time. The characters do develop but imo, in comparison to a lot of series, the development is quite mediocre too. Krillin is pretty static, Roshi just doesn't exist in DBZ and shows back up in DBS and Piccolo had a good character arc but then vanished out of existence. Every time Akira Toriyama makes an interesting character (Tien, Krillin and Piccolo), they just fade out of existence. The character imbalance is one of the major flaws for this series. That, an plot wise, there's nothing too interesting. Frieza Saga might have had the strongest plot but that's about as much credit I can give this series for the plot department. And the author also has the need to force evil into every villain and then make them turn good, as if that reptitiveness constitutes for characterization. Buu would have been a much better antagonist if he didn't go through the whole evil stuff and Toriyama actually utilized him creatively. Pacing is also garbage but I guess that's why Kai exists. That's pretty much every complaint I can think of rn i have to disagree the only villians in z whose goal was it to destroy earth was Buu. Cells original goal was to become a perfect being and then eventually wanted to blow up the planet. Frieza's goal was to get the dragon ball on Namek he wanted to expand his empire he only blew up planets that he would see as threat the only reason Frieza wanted to destroy Earth was to get revenge on Goku. I don't really see the issue with Goku because we follow his story from him being a child to getting married etc. Picollo actually has alot of development in multiple arcs such as namek,sayin, cell, buu arc,and picollo jr arc. Tien has 3 arcs in db and in the cell and sayin arc as well. Krillin had a major role in almost every arc besides buu arc. Rochi was relevant through out all of db he may not have got as much time in z but he was developed for a long time. The only characters that seemed to fade out was Launch, Chouzu, and Yamcha. But yamcha is still used a bit at the end of the day, all of these characters have the motive of destroying planets/universes. The issue with Goku is that his growth is unsteady and all over the place. Sure, whatever little development he has in OG DB is fine (going from a child to an adult isn't development lol, it's changing your ideals or maybe maturing emotionally or anything, goku remains the same when he's an adult). But in DBZ, you'd think that he wouldn't just give Cell a senzu bean and do all of those things. It's really offputting and dumb, especially everything he's went through. He goes from the guy he was in OG DB to a mindless fighting robot. His characterization is so painful, and I hate it. Tien, Krillin, Roshi and Piccolo are always overshadowed by Goku and Vegeta. Remember that time in the Saiyan Saga where these guys (excluding roshi) were just used as punching bags by the main villains, to let us know that they're big and bad and scary? The same thing happens in Frieza Saga, and then again in Cell Saga. It's so boring and repetitive, there's no new creativity with them. Again, writing wise they're like the best characters but in comparison to other anime, I think they fall behind a lot. And this is mainly because Goku ALWAYS has to be in the spotlight. If you want to bring up the Cell Saga, just remember what happened to Gohan in the arc after Cell. All of it is just really messy, and I think DBZ is one of my least favorite stories writing wise, the characters and the enjoyment factor are probably the only things saving it. That, and the fact that I watched this show a year ago, when my standards were really low. goku always believed in a fair fight that has always been a thing he did in og db he did it in cell games. Not all the villians in z and db have a plan to destroy the universe or planets. I would disagree about picollo and krillin being overshadowed by goku and vegeta. Sure they may have not been as strong as the main villians but they had importance to narritives of the story. The whole reason cell got to perfect form was because vegeta had to much arrogance nad krillin hesitated to kill android 18. Krillin fought against frieza to hold off until goku got there. He defeated a ginyu force member with gohan. Sure krillin was never a character to win a major battlee but he had plot significance. As for gohan after cell arc, gohan always wanted to be a scholar he didn't want to be a fighter like his dad. He fought cuz he had to not cuz he wanted to. However we got to see what he could of been if he followed down the path of his father. I think everyone would agree gohan would be cooler if he went down the same path as goku. but thats not what he really wanted he also steps up to be a father figure for goten. Picollo raised gohan in gokus absence. Sacrafices himself to protect gohan. He goes against 17 he fights buu and got absorbed which is why he lost, he fights frieza. Him and goku both took down raditz. A "fair fight" isn't throwing the fight itself and giving your enemy a major advantage. Especially after everything Goku went through in OG DB, the whole senzu bean thing is dumb. Narrative wise, Krillin and Piccolo simply just exist so Toriyama can show how powerful the enemy is. They're present within the story, sure, but after the midway point of an arc, they're just pushed to the side. As for Gohan, fair enough, but wasn't the only reason he lost because he got cocky and didn't want to end Buu in one instant? Isn't this the EXACT same thing that happens in the Cell Saga (I could be wrong but I swear that the reason why Goku had to do what he did was because Gohan just kept abusing Buu and then the detention thing happened)? Gohan hasn't even grown or learned from his mistakes either lmao, and the only reason this is the case is because Toriyama wanted Goku to get the spotlight once again. The characters just keep getting lazier and lazier after a certain point, it's not even funny. And by Buu Saga, Tien and Chiaotzu are pretty much just gone. But even putting character writing aside, these characters still lack in comparison to a lot of shows. With a show this long, you naturally have to expect some form of development, but a lot of it just boils down to villain becomes good guy. There's nothing really interesting about the way these characters change, because most of the time, it's always the same formula with a bit of other stuff sprinkled on. To appreciate characters, your audience has to see new and interesting perspectives. We've already seen Piccolo get a redemption arc, we don't need to see Vegeta, Buu, and even Frieza (DBS) to some extent go the same route. how was goku throwing a senzu bean to cell to make it an unfair fight after he fought him. saying a character get pushed away in a middle of an arc doesnt really mean much goku and vegeta are stronger than most people in Z. Picollo stays relevant due to him teaching gohan. In the buu arc he teaches goten and trunks how to fuse. And ill say it again tien and chiatzu had multiple arcs in the og db and early parts of z. Gohan also was fighting buu and winning but to defeat buu u have to destroy him on a molecular level. Buu then self destructs however no one is hurt by that. The issue was goten and trunks fusing to fight buu and not allowwing gohan to do it. Thats when gotenks gets absorbdd and problems begin for gohan In the fight before he absorbs them gohan takes goten trunks and picollo away from buus self destruction nothing gohan would have done could have prevented that. Picollo and Vegeta had very different redemption arcs. Picollo did it because he cared about gohan. Vegeta does really get redeemed until the buu arc. He was in denial in who he was because he could never beat goku. Vegeta didnt really care about earth i mean its pretty obvious when he allowed cell to become his perfect form. He also allowed to be controled by bahbadi to defeat goku. The only reason he becomes good is because of Trunks. He then sacrafics him self to defeat buu. Unless ur talking about fat buu who understands the value of life after protecting a dog. And the only reason he becomes good is because h expells the evil out of hhis body creating evil buu. Much like with what Kami did with himself and picollo. Frieza in super is still evil he just does things that beneefit him he only tournament of power to be resurected. ok I'm just gonna say it right now, none of this changes the fact that the DB characters are shallow in comparison to other series. Everyone knows that Goku becomes flat after OG DB, and squeezing out what little actions he does in DBZ does not constitute as actual development. Vegeta, Krillin and Piccolo are decent but there are so many other characters I can name that are better than these guys. That's mainly because characters from modern (and even older shonen like Jojo and One Piece) have richer characterization and they tend to change their ways of thinking (not from a literal bad to good perspective, but perhaps more complex) or even just mature in an interesting way. When put up against this, DBS Goku is pretty much the same as OG DB Goku, in fact he probably even regressed. Goku's still the same manchild, Vegeta is still always losing to Goku and being angry at stuff (although he has some neat characterization in DBS) and Krillin has went from Goku's rival to just this friend. DB being an action shonen means that every character needs to be somewhat near in strength, it can't just have two characters being miles ahead of the others. Things like these cause the side characters to fall out of the loop (Tien, Chiaotzu, Launch, Yamcha etc. are gone forever, please stop acting like they made the most out of what little screentime they had to begin with and were well developed) and a lot of it is because Toriyama didn't want to find a way to keep them powerful. Yamcha is literally reduced to a joke character, and the others just don't exist. I find it funny that you're defending the shows characters when they're nothing special and likely not a reason why this show is "underrated", I feel like even DBZ fans only enjoy DBZ for the mindless fights and random laser beams. vegeta beat goku when he went majin vegeta, also do expect vegeta to become stronger than goku perminatly. like that is never gonna happen lol. You also act like bulma isnt well written or that future trunks wasnt well written. Tien is even in the tournament of power. Launch is the only character who was done bad by toriyama. Not gonna lie OP is hella boring in repetitve i dropped that at ep 200. Any character in that show regardless of how well you believe they were written will always be held back by how repetitive their story is.Goku developed a lot through og db and even in z. He understands he cannot beat everyone i mean a good example is raditz, buu, cell, tien. Before you say well he beat buu goku did not beat buu because he was stronger he beat buu because of the spirit bomb and vegeta holding buu off. Goku realizes people are stronger than him and when they are he swallows his own pride to do the greater good. They were gonna bring goku back after cell using the namek dragon balls but goku tells them not to so earth will stay safe. Also power scaling for z fighters is pretty accurate. Do you expect humans to be on par with one of the strongest races. Sayins could have conqured earth easily before goku who is also a sayin showed up to fight vegeta and. nappa the earth would have been wiped out. Power scaling for humans is pretty fair considering how strong the rest of the universe is. Goku was pretty strong from the onset. Tien Launch, and yammcha were all developed characters. Dont lie they may become less important in z but they were important in characters in og db. As for jojo dont they get a new cast every season or so lol. Its an awful example to use considering how the show works. I havent watched jojo but i do know they get a different cast every season or so. DBZ and DB balance their characters pretty well considering how large the cast is. Most DB and DBZ fans enjoy thee characters and fights. The fights are meaningless if there wasnt importance for the characters. Frieza v Goku was an important fight, Vegeta v Goku is an important fight, Gohan v Cell, Majin Vegeta v Buu, Goku v Buu, Picollo v Goku, Tien v Goku, Tien vs Yamcha, Tien vs Tao Pai Pai ,Krillin v Goku, Raditz v Picollo and Goku. These are mmore than the fight its about what leads up to the fight why they are fighting which makes it important. You can watch GOH for fight scenes without meaning and barley get any enjoyment because there isnt really a reason why. But DBZ and DB fights have meaning. |
Aug 2, 2021 10:21 PM
#113
soccer6131 said: I know what you are gonna say no its one of the most popular anime's of all time one of the biggest franchises ever and yes you would be correct however, a lot of modern anime watchers see this show and dismiss it as being a bad anime with a lot of overhype and mischaracterize the show to a point where they think DBZ and DB fans don't watch a lot of anime and just have basic taste. They also compare this to modern shonen and label the anime as generic however what they see as generic is what has happened due to many people copying the formula Dragon Ball had popularized and revolutionized. I see alot of people talk about how the story is very basic and characters lack depth besides vegeta or picollo which to me seems very inaccurate when you take into account db because you see a majority of those characters grow up and develop in their own right and villains in Z are iconic characters . They might not get as much screen time in Z but they had a whole show dedicated towards them. As for story being basic I don't see an issue with a linear story because its executed well and has a good cast behind it. I'm not saying DB and DBZ isn't popular or isnt even extremely hyped but i think people downplay it to a point so people geniunly the grandfather of modern shonen is bad I totally agree with you. My brother watches Isekai anime and compares them to DBZ |
Aug 2, 2021 10:23 PM
#114
soccer6131 said: Buggbot3000 said: soccer6131 said: Buggbot3000 said: soccer6131 said: Buggbot3000 said: soccer6131 said: Buggbot3000 said: OG DB is good, although I genuinely don't remember much. Goku is a flat character though, there's nothing going for him and his growth is all over the place. DBZ is kinda bad, it was around that point where every arc villain was just a guy who wanted to destroy Earth. Not a fan of watching characters power up and defeat random villain #3924389275 who wants to destroy the earth or the universe for the 81281742109579017328th time. The characters do develop but imo, in comparison to a lot of series, the development is quite mediocre too. Krillin is pretty static, Roshi just doesn't exist in DBZ and shows back up in DBS and Piccolo had a good character arc but then vanished out of existence. Every time Akira Toriyama makes an interesting character (Tien, Krillin and Piccolo), they just fade out of existence. The character imbalance is one of the major flaws for this series. That, an plot wise, there's nothing too interesting. Frieza Saga might have had the strongest plot but that's about as much credit I can give this series for the plot department. And the author also has the need to force evil into every villain and then make them turn good, as if that reptitiveness constitutes for characterization. Buu would have been a much better antagonist if he didn't go through the whole evil stuff and Toriyama actually utilized him creatively. Pacing is also garbage but I guess that's why Kai exists. That's pretty much every complaint I can think of rn i have to disagree the only villians in z whose goal was it to destroy earth was Buu. Cells original goal was to become a perfect being and then eventually wanted to blow up the planet. Frieza's goal was to get the dragon ball on Namek he wanted to expand his empire he only blew up planets that he would see as threat the only reason Frieza wanted to destroy Earth was to get revenge on Goku. I don't really see the issue with Goku because we follow his story from him being a child to getting married etc. Picollo actually has alot of development in multiple arcs such as namek,sayin, cell, buu arc,and picollo jr arc. Tien has 3 arcs in db and in the cell and sayin arc as well. Krillin had a major role in almost every arc besides buu arc. Rochi was relevant through out all of db he may not have got as much time in z but he was developed for a long time. The only characters that seemed to fade out was Launch, Chouzu, and Yamcha. But yamcha is still used a bit at the end of the day, all of these characters have the motive of destroying planets/universes. The issue with Goku is that his growth is unsteady and all over the place. Sure, whatever little development he has in OG DB is fine (going from a child to an adult isn't development lol, it's changing your ideals or maybe maturing emotionally or anything, goku remains the same when he's an adult). But in DBZ, you'd think that he wouldn't just give Cell a senzu bean and do all of those things. It's really offputting and dumb, especially everything he's went through. He goes from the guy he was in OG DB to a mindless fighting robot. His characterization is so painful, and I hate it. Tien, Krillin, Roshi and Piccolo are always overshadowed by Goku and Vegeta. Remember that time in the Saiyan Saga where these guys (excluding roshi) were just used as punching bags by the main villains, to let us know that they're big and bad and scary? The same thing happens in Frieza Saga, and then again in Cell Saga. It's so boring and repetitive, there's no new creativity with them. Again, writing wise they're like the best characters but in comparison to other anime, I think they fall behind a lot. And this is mainly because Goku ALWAYS has to be in the spotlight. If you want to bring up the Cell Saga, just remember what happened to Gohan in the arc after Cell. All of it is just really messy, and I think DBZ is one of my least favorite stories writing wise, the characters and the enjoyment factor are probably the only things saving it. That, and the fact that I watched this show a year ago, when my standards were really low. goku always believed in a fair fight that has always been a thing he did in og db he did it in cell games. Not all the villians in z and db have a plan to destroy the universe or planets. I would disagree about picollo and krillin being overshadowed by goku and vegeta. Sure they may have not been as strong as the main villians but they had importance to narritives of the story. The whole reason cell got to perfect form was because vegeta had to much arrogance nad krillin hesitated to kill android 18. Krillin fought against frieza to hold off until goku got there. He defeated a ginyu force member with gohan. Sure krillin was never a character to win a major battlee but he had plot significance. As for gohan after cell arc, gohan always wanted to be a scholar he didn't want to be a fighter like his dad. He fought cuz he had to not cuz he wanted to. However we got to see what he could of been if he followed down the path of his father. I think everyone would agree gohan would be cooler if he went down the same path as goku. but thats not what he really wanted he also steps up to be a father figure for goten. Picollo raised gohan in gokus absence. Sacrafices himself to protect gohan. He goes against 17 he fights buu and got absorbed which is why he lost, he fights frieza. Him and goku both took down raditz. A "fair fight" isn't throwing the fight itself and giving your enemy a major advantage. Especially after everything Goku went through in OG DB, the whole senzu bean thing is dumb. Narrative wise, Krillin and Piccolo simply just exist so Toriyama can show how powerful the enemy is. They're present within the story, sure, but after the midway point of an arc, they're just pushed to the side. As for Gohan, fair enough, but wasn't the only reason he lost because he got cocky and didn't want to end Buu in one instant? Isn't this the EXACT same thing that happens in the Cell Saga (I could be wrong but I swear that the reason why Goku had to do what he did was because Gohan just kept abusing Buu and then the detention thing happened)? Gohan hasn't even grown or learned from his mistakes either lmao, and the only reason this is the case is because Toriyama wanted Goku to get the spotlight once again. The characters just keep getting lazier and lazier after a certain point, it's not even funny. And by Buu Saga, Tien and Chiaotzu are pretty much just gone. But even putting character writing aside, these characters still lack in comparison to a lot of shows. With a show this long, you naturally have to expect some form of development, but a lot of it just boils down to villain becomes good guy. There's nothing really interesting about the way these characters change, because most of the time, it's always the same formula with a bit of other stuff sprinkled on. To appreciate characters, your audience has to see new and interesting perspectives. We've already seen Piccolo get a redemption arc, we don't need to see Vegeta, Buu, and even Frieza (DBS) to some extent go the same route. how was goku throwing a senzu bean to cell to make it an unfair fight after he fought him. saying a character get pushed away in a middle of an arc doesnt really mean much goku and vegeta are stronger than most people in Z. Picollo stays relevant due to him teaching gohan. In the buu arc he teaches goten and trunks how to fuse. And ill say it again tien and chiatzu had multiple arcs in the og db and early parts of z. Gohan also was fighting buu and winning but to defeat buu u have to destroy him on a molecular level. Buu then self destructs however no one is hurt by that. The issue was goten and trunks fusing to fight buu and not allowwing gohan to do it. Thats when gotenks gets absorbdd and problems begin for gohan In the fight before he absorbs them gohan takes goten trunks and picollo away from buus self destruction nothing gohan would have done could have prevented that. Picollo and Vegeta had very different redemption arcs. Picollo did it because he cared about gohan. Vegeta does really get redeemed until the buu arc. He was in denial in who he was because he could never beat goku. Vegeta didnt really care about earth i mean its pretty obvious when he allowed cell to become his perfect form. He also allowed to be controled by bahbadi to defeat goku. The only reason he becomes good is because of Trunks. He then sacrafics him self to defeat buu. Unless ur talking about fat buu who understands the value of life after protecting a dog. And the only reason he becomes good is because h expells the evil out of hhis body creating evil buu. Much like with what Kami did with himself and picollo. Frieza in super is still evil he just does things that beneefit him he only tournament of power to be resurected. ok I'm just gonna say it right now, none of this changes the fact that the DB characters are shallow in comparison to other series. Everyone knows that Goku becomes flat after OG DB, and squeezing out what little actions he does in DBZ does not constitute as actual development. Vegeta, Krillin and Piccolo are decent but there are so many other characters I can name that are better than these guys. That's mainly because characters from modern (and even older shonen like Jojo and One Piece) have richer characterization and they tend to change their ways of thinking (not from a literal bad to good perspective, but perhaps more complex) or even just mature in an interesting way. When put up against this, DBS Goku is pretty much the same as OG DB Goku, in fact he probably even regressed. Goku's still the same manchild, Vegeta is still always losing to Goku and being angry at stuff (although he has some neat characterization in DBS) and Krillin has went from Goku's rival to just this friend. DB being an action shonen means that every character needs to be somewhat near in strength, it can't just have two characters being miles ahead of the others. Things like these cause the side characters to fall out of the loop (Tien, Chiaotzu, Launch, Yamcha etc. are gone forever, please stop acting like they made the most out of what little screentime they had to begin with and were well developed) and a lot of it is because Toriyama didn't want to find a way to keep them powerful. Yamcha is literally reduced to a joke character, and the others just don't exist. I find it funny that you're defending the shows characters when they're nothing special and likely not a reason why this show is "underrated", I feel like even DBZ fans only enjoy DBZ for the mindless fights and random laser beams. vegeta beat goku when he went majin vegeta, also do expect vegeta to become stronger than goku perminatly. like that is never gonna happen lol. You also act like bulma isnt well written or that future trunks wasnt well written. Tien is even in the tournament of power. Launch is the only character who was done bad by toriyama. Not gonna lie OP is hella boring in repetitve i dropped that at ep 200. Any character in that show regardless of how well you believe they were written will always be held back by how repetitive their story is.Goku developed a lot through og db and even in z. He understands he cannot beat everyone i mean a good example is raditz, buu, cell, tien. Before you say well he beat buu goku did not beat buu because he was stronger he beat buu because of the spirit bomb and vegeta holding buu off. Goku realizes people are stronger than him and when they are he swallows his own pride to do the greater good. They were gonna bring goku back after cell using the namek dragon balls but goku tells them not to so earth will stay safe. Also power scaling for z fighters is pretty accurate. Do you expect humans to be on par with one of the strongest races. Sayins could have conqured earth easily before goku who is also a sayin showed up to fight vegeta and. nappa the earth would have been wiped out. Power scaling for humans is pretty fair considering how strong the rest of the universe is. Goku was pretty strong from the onset. Tien Launch, and yammcha were all developed characters. Dont lie they may become less important in z but they were important in characters in og db. As for jojo dont they get a new cast every season or so lol. Its an awful example to use considering how the show works. I havent watched jojo but i do know they get a different cast every season or so. DBZ and DB balance their characters pretty well considering how large the cast is. Most DB and DBZ fans enjoy thee characters and fights. The fights are meaningless if there wasnt importance for the characters. Frieza v Goku was an important fight, Vegeta v Goku is an important fight, Gohan v Cell, Majin Vegeta v Buu, Goku v Buu, Picollo v Goku, Tien v Goku, Tien vs Yamcha, Tien vs Tao Pai Pai ,Krillin v Goku, Raditz v Picollo and Goku. These are mmore than the fight its about what leads up to the fight why they are fighting which makes it important. You can watch GOH for fight scenes without meaning and barley get any enjoyment because there isnt really a reason why. But DBZ and DB fights have meaning. Now you can say that Vegeta has finally got justice during his fight against granolah. (: |
May 25, 2022 8:21 AM
#115
| I agree with this. But due to the fact that idiots sit on this site, who, apart from their noses, can’t see any further and watch the series with their ass, DBZ has a score of 8.15, although it should be at least 9.00. |
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