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#1
Jun 22, 9:01 PM
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Okay, so I know Isayama has said that he was going for more of a "Mist" ending and then changed it after the story became so popular. Most people understand this as him saying that at first he was going to make Eren finish the Rumbling, but I don't think so. I think that most things that played out were planned from the beginning and the Mist ending was going to be simply more character deaths and the extra 8 pages. Maybe Reiner, Annie, Gabi and more would've died, things like that, but everything just seems to have been written in a way that shows that it is in fact what he was always going to write. Do you guys have any proof that proves me otherwise? I'd love to know.

Some things that make me think this:
- In the Trost fight, after he saves Armin, Eren says: "Do you really think I'm going to die in a place like this?" while standing inside the mouth of a titan. That is, in fact, how he died.
- Mikasa saying "why does it have to end like this?" while in awe at the sight of everthing going on is something that really resonates with me, but I do feel like that was the only ending possible and Isayama had been planning it from the very beginning.
- The "See you later" line actually feels extremely "right". All of our characters are in the middle of an insane apocalyptic battle in an immeasurable scale and the seeing the line being said in the beginning of the story it just seems to fit very well with the setting the line is actually said in (I know that technically it comes from the dream, but same thing).
- The panels in which Mikasa severs Eren's head and kisses him seem to be the most carefully drawn panels ever created by Isayama and, to me, it visually looks like something that had been burning in the back of his mind for years that he finally got to draw in chapter 138.

Obviously details are always changed but the "Lelouch" ending is most likely the only ending he ever really considered and not something he pulled out of his ass at last minute. He probably could've executed it better but I don't think he changed the ending just before writing it after having it set in stone for sooooooo long.
 
#2
Jun 22, 11:14 PM
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Marley arc wasn't even planned from the start so these scenes were introduced without current ending in mind.
 
#3
Jun 23, 1:35 AM
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original mist ending was going to end with return to shiganshina with everyone dying and Marley attacking paradise.
The original ending after that was being foreshadowed since uprising and even in the final exhibition in 2019 and the draft for the "last panel" shown by isayama in 2018. He said that the man holding the baby is someone who surpassed his father (eren?). Watch the video/song kimi ga fusawashii from linked horizon. It foreshadowed the original ending and was released when chapter 120-121 was also released.
also, aot is influenced by norse mythology. Ymir is reborn as a child after the battle of ragnarok and even eren and historia are influenced by the characters from the eternal champion (also norse mythology). Isayama took inspiration from that book for many plot points after the basement reveal.
So many things pointed towards this ending up until chapter 135/136
Attack on Titan ended with chapter 123 and 130/131 is the epilogue
 
#4
Jun 23, 1:49 AM

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I pretty much expected the same. Except dialogues sounded juvenile.
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#5
Jun 23, 1:50 AM

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An ending that obliterates the foundation of the themes and characters. Sure, I'll believe it.
Modified by LordSozin, Jun 23, 6:36 AM
 
#6
Jun 23, 3:01 AM

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Isayama messed up in the last 10 or 15 chapters. He tried for a Code Geass type of ending but ended up with a mesh of Death Note and Code Geass ending which was a disgrace to the first 120 chapters.

 
 
#7
Jun 23, 6:28 AM
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AmadeusK525 said:
Okay, so I know Isayama has said that he was going for more of a "Mist" ending and then changed it after the story became so popular. Most people understand this as him saying that at first he was going to make Eren finish the Rumbling, but I don't think so. I think that most things that played out were planned from the beginning and the Mist ending was going to be simply more character deaths and the extra 8 pages. Maybe Reiner, Annie, Gabi and more would've died, things like that, but everything just seems to have been written in a way that shows that it is in fact what he was always going to write. Do you guys have any proof that proves me otherwise? I'd love to know.

Some things that make me think this:
- In the Trost fight, after he saves Armin, Eren says: "Do you really think I'm going to die in a place like this?" while standing inside the mouth of a titan. That is, in fact, how he died.
- Mikasa saying "why does it have to end like this?" while in awe at the sight of everthing going on is something that really resonates with me, but I do feel like that was the only ending possible and Isayama had been planning it from the very beginning.
- The "See you later" line actually feels extremely "right". All of our characters are in the middle of an insane apocalyptic battle in an immeasurable scale and the seeing the line being said in the beginning of the story it just seems to fit very well with the setting the line is actually said in (I know that technically it comes from the dream, but same thing).
- The panels in which Mikasa severs Eren's head and kisses him seem to be the most carefully drawn panels ever created by Isayama and, to me, it visually looks like something that had been burning in the back of his mind for years that he finally got to draw in chapter 138.

Obviously details are always changed but the "Lelouch" ending is most likely the only ending he ever really considered and not something he pulled out of his ass at last minute. He probably could've executed it better but I don't think he changed the ending just before writing it after having it set in stone for sooooooo long.

Wow. How far some people go to defend this trash. It. Was. NOT Planned. Just accept it so you don't look like a clown who didn't pay any attention to story.
 
#8
Jun 23, 6:39 AM

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shyn_M21 said:
AmadeusK525 said:
Okay, so I know Isayama has said that he was going for more of a "Mist" ending and then changed it after the story became so popular. Most people understand this as him saying that at first he was going to make Eren finish the Rumbling, but I don't think so. I think that most things that played out were planned from the beginning and the Mist ending was going to be simply more character deaths and the extra 8 pages. Maybe Reiner, Annie, Gabi and more would've died, things like that, but everything just seems to have been written in a way that shows that it is in fact what he was always going to write. Do you guys have any proof that proves me otherwise? I'd love to know.

Some things that make me think this:
- In the Trost fight, after he saves Armin, Eren says: "Do you really think I'm going to die in a place like this?" while standing inside the mouth of a titan. That is, in fact, how he died.
- Mikasa saying "why does it have to end like this?" while in awe at the sight of everthing going on is something that really resonates with me, but I do feel like that was the only ending possible and Isayama had been planning it from the very beginning.
- The "See you later" line actually feels extremely "right". All of our characters are in the middle of an insane apocalyptic battle in an immeasurable scale and the seeing the line being said in the beginning of the story it just seems to fit very well with the setting the line is actually said in (I know that technically it comes from the dream, but same thing).
- The panels in which Mikasa severs Eren's head and kisses him seem to be the most carefully drawn panels ever created by Isayama and, to me, it visually looks like something that had been burning in the back of his mind for years that he finally got to draw in chapter 138.

Obviously details are always changed but the "Lelouch" ending is most likely the only ending he ever really considered and not something he pulled out of his ass at last minute. He probably could've executed it better but I don't think he changed the ending just before writing it after having it set in stone for sooooooo long.

Wow. How far some people go to defend this trash. It. Was. NOT Planned. Just accept it so you don't look like a clown who didn't pay any attention to story.


Even if you provide alibi of forced change to the ending of this damn manga, they won't believe it. Whether be past interviews, contradiction in the manga, or hell, even an admission of Editors direct interferences, these defenders won't bat an eye.

Let them be. They be advocating for genocide is good, people can be forgiven for committing atrocities, facism is good, master and slave relationship is good, forced and toxic relationship is good. They are truly the curse of this dumbass fandom along with the shippers. And Isyama bent the knee to them.
Modified by LordSozin, Jun 23, 6:45 AM
 
#9
Jun 23, 8:50 AM
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LordSozin said:
shyn_M21 said:

Wow. How far some people go to defend this trash. It. Was. NOT Planned. Just accept it so you don't look like a clown who didn't pay any attention to story.


Even if you provide alibi of forced change to the ending of this damn manga, they won't believe it. Whether be past interviews, contradiction in the manga, or hell, even an admission of Editors direct interferences, these defenders won't bat an eye.

Let them be. They be advocating for genocide is good, people can be forgiven for committing atrocities, facism is good, master and slave relationship is good, forced and toxic relationship is good. They are truly the curse of this dumbass fandom along with the shippers. And Isyama bent the knee to them.

I can't speak for the people defending the ending but the ending itself definitely doesn't advocate any of the things you specified.

Genocide is never presented in a good light. Eren himself disavows his actions and claims he can never be forgiven. Armin, when he thanks him for "becoming a mass murderer for our sake", states in the very next line it to have been an "error", and in the volume release its even been changed to "biggest mistake". Its clear, especially given the change, Isayama is clearly condemning genocide. I think its always been pretty clear Armin has been thankful for the sentiment and that Eren's motivations were in large part for his friends, and Armin is happy Eren isn't completely evil. Does that justify his actions? Of course not. Nothing about Armin thanking Eren makes him committing genocide redeemable.

In regard to people committing atrocities in general, I don't think that's justified either although I do think Isayama does a poorer job and showing this. Reiner's character arc is all about coming to terms with the horrible things he's done in his past and becoming a positive force for change, as well as overcoming his mental anguish. Reiner goes through so much pain because of his actions. I think that's retribution for what he's done. Annie doesn't really experience this same arc, at least not really as much as Reiner, which is a shame I agree, but I think Annie's actions in helping the alliance and fighting against the rumbling earn her at least some right to have a happy ending. Whether you think these characters do enough to be redeemed is up to the reader, but Isayama's message is that with enough effort these acts can be forgiven. I don't think this means Eren should be forgiven since he does very little to redeem himself at the end.

Facism is never justified. I don't think this should need explaining. The island of Paradis is shown in the last chapter as being divided. We see our characters who we know are morally sound like Hitch, the newpaper people and Sasha's dad (literally the most moral person in the story lmao) to be unhappy and uncomfortable with the current state of the island. But the ambassadors represent hope that the island can be redeemed through diplomacy.

Master and slave relationships again I don't think need to be explained why they aren't justified. Ymir's relationship with King Fritz is shown to be something she must overcome, and by seeing Mikasa overcome her connection with Eren she too is able to finally let go thus relieving the world of the titan curse. The extra pages between Mikasa and Ymir describe Ymir's love for Fritz as like "a long nightmare". I think its very clear the relationship between Ymir and King Fritz is inherently negative and is condemned.

I hope this makes sense. This doesn't really have anything to do with the manga ending being planned all along or not but I feel like its important to note the lengths the story itself goes to try and disavow some of the things you claim it or the fanbase to justify. If you disagree feel free to share your ideas.
 
Jun 23, 9:13 AM
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ShoriTora said:

Master and slave relationships again I don't think need to be explained why they aren't justified. Ymir's relationship with King Fritz is shown to be something she must overcome, and by seeing Mikasa overcome her connection with Eren she too is able to finally let go thus relieving the world of the titan curse. The extra pages between Mikasa and Ymir describe Ymir's love for Fritz as like "a long nightmare". I think its very clear the relationship between Ymir and King Fritz is inherently negative and is condemned.

"Fritz allowed Yimir to bear his children. They were the bond between them" or something. "There is the life created by you, there's me" thank you Yimir for being raped I guess.
 
 
Jun 23, 11:09 AM
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Wow you guys are just shitty people. I literally said in the original post that I'd love to know if there's proof against this and most people replied with offenses. I never said I loved the ending, I just said I think he wanted to do this all along. If you can't understand my original post you're the clown.

Anyway, for the people who did try and engage in the conversation without being assholes, thank you and:
Do you have an interview where he says the Marley Arc wasn't planned?
When did he say that the man in the supposed last panel was someone who had surpassed his father? This is the first time I'm hearing about this.
I hadn't heard the song before, but what exactly does it foreshadow? I don't understand, the lyrics seem pretty generic and broad to me.
Just because he's influenced by Norse Mythology it doesn't mean that he'd planned to retell a story exactly as it was but in a different context. Just because there's influences it's not proof that he had planned to do anything.
How do you know the original ending was Marley attacking Paradis in RtS?

It's crazy how I just wanted to share some thoughts and see what people had to add to them but this GREAT fandom decided to attack me and attack "the dumbass fandom". It goes to show how toxic people are.

Oh, by the way, didn't Isayama say in the latest interview on the Guidebook that the fates of Eren, Mikasa and Armin were planned from the beginning? That their whole Journey was planned?
 
Jun 23, 1:11 PM
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I refuse to believe that anyone in their right mind would end such good story (up until the last 10 chapters or so) like this. Then, release extra pages that are even worse.
 
Jun 23, 1:36 PM
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AmadeusK525 said:

Do you have an interview where he says the Marley Arc wasn't planned?

I can't find the link right now but that is from the latest editor interview. Editor says something about "sea scene" being the original ending before Marley arc was planned.
 
Jun 23, 1:42 PM
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I haven't read all the manga, but I got myself spoiled with the ending, so I will give my thoughts: Eren living was never an option and it was hinted to be like this. The AnR ending was never something that would become true.

Like I said, I haven't read the pages, so I don't know if the ending was poorly executed or not, but seeing how many complain, it probably was. Though I am not sure if it is rage because things didn't end as people hoped for or because of bad writing.

The hints were that Eren would go on a rampage and die, Armin being the one that would save the world. Did he save the world or not... we don't really know :-s


There is the love thing that feels forced and, to be honest, maybe the only hint from Eren was when he asked Mikasa what he is to her. Grisha found someone to love within the walls, but Eren didn't and they cycle continued.

Another thing that could defend the way Eren is in the end is the fact that he is a different person after he gets in contact with the memories past the basement reveal. He tells Reiner to forget what he said in the past, so that over there shows his past ambitions are not the same anymore.


Many, many other things can be said about how the story played out and I don't want to tell either blindly defend or totally disagree with the ending. Not everyone's story is ending perfectly and there is no reason why to believe that Eren should have made the right choices.


In the end, what Levi told Floch during Erwin's death is probably true in our case too: we wanted Eren to become a demon :(


 
Jun 23, 8:56 PM
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Literally in an interview, Isayama said that he decided to write the final arc the way he did because he got married. He also said that he was writing with sort of a blurry end goal in mind and became overconfident in his skill so he wrote an awful ending thinking that he could have managed it. I don't believe he had planned this from the beginning.
 
Jun 24, 2:56 AM
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engich said:
ShoriTora said:

Master and slave relationships again I don't think need to be explained why they aren't justified. Ymir's relationship with King Fritz is shown to be something she must overcome, and by seeing Mikasa overcome her connection with Eren she too is able to finally let go thus relieving the world of the titan curse. The extra pages between Mikasa and Ymir describe Ymir's love for Fritz as like "a long nightmare". I think its very clear the relationship between Ymir and King Fritz is inherently negative and is condemned.

"Fritz allowed Yimir to bear his children. They were the bond between them" or something. "There is the life created by you, there's me" thank you Yimir for being raped I guess.

Where are those quotes from? I don't really get your point without context behind them
 
Jun 24, 3:52 AM
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ShoriTora said:

Where are those quotes from? I don't really get your point without context behind them

The first one is from guidebook and the second is Mikasa quote from extra pages.
 
 
Jun 24, 5:30 AM
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@AmadeusK525

the end has no build up or preparation it was changed last minute, there is also a lot of retcons, for example, the author dedicated two entire arcs to show the development of Eren where he learned that he must believe in himself and that his decision matters and he must take responsibility for his actions this living breathing nature of AOT was demonstrated in chasing Annie in the forest arc and the uprising arc, the end undermined all that to a linear story where Eren basically has no choice and was a slave to a predetermined path WTF, and you seriously want to convince this is what Isayama has planned to throw his story in the trash, did I also mentioned that EreMikasa, Eren and King Fritz has no development in the story?!, not to mention that these disgusting romance glorifies rape and abuse, did I also mention that in the guidebook Historia's bully became her friend while in previous chapters Historia stated explicitly that she had no friends but animals in her childhood WTF, why would Eren lie for third of the story following a trash 80% rumbling if the island got destroyed in the end???!!!, look how AOT is advertised by publishers it's advertised as a romance story this is diverging away from its original themes about war, racism, corruption and cruelty, this should be considered as an absolute failure by everyone.

there are many theories behind this ending, it's quite obvious that we may get a sequel within 5 years after season 4 finishes airing so you may want to reserve your judgment.
 
Jun 24, 8:35 AM
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engich said:
ShoriTora said:

Where are those quotes from? I don't really get your point without context behind them

The first one is from guidebook and the second is Mikasa quote from extra pages.

Ah thank you. I don't think the children one really changes much, "allowed" sounds bad and I hope that's just a mistranslation but I think the idea is that despite the horrible relationship between Ymir and Fritz the children and what they signify is kinda a bright spot in their relationship. Despite the "long nightmare" she had to go through the children represent the chance for life to continue, linking back to the whole idea that children can continue to fight and continue the dreams of the next generation like we see through the child in the final pages. While that doesn't exactly work out with her direct descendants, given they literally eat her, we see the royal family develop into a force for positive change through Historia and the possibility for diplomacy can be realised. In regards to Mikasa, through the lives Ymir's children and their children etc we come to this outcome, where the titan curse has been released and the diplomacy is more viable. Of course we see in the extra pages war is inevitable, but through the descendant of Mikasa and the lasting memory of the tree, beauty persists and the possibility for one day achieving that freedom remains, and even with that seeming near impossible with war being inevitable, that dream is worth sacrificing lives for as we've seen through the whole story.

Basically my point is I think this is kind of an Armin thanking Eren situation where they aren't being thanked for their actions or what happened to them but what they did them for or in this case what it ended up achieving. Ymir's horrible experiences are made to be a worthy sacrifice in the increasing possibility for continuing life and the goal of freedom. I guess in comparing Ymir and Mikasa so closely you could claim Mikasa's love for Eren and the other guy in the extra pages (probably Jean lets be honest Isayama didn't make him look similar for no reason, its intended that you assume it to be Jean) but I think particularly in Jean's case we know him to be a good person and that Mikasa has made the decision to get together with him so I don't think Isayama's point is to present Mikasa as a slave as Ymir was, but that she's been able to free herself from the Ackerman curse and the possibility of sharing Ymir's fate while still perpetuating life that will continue the fight for freedom that the past generations fought for.

I realise this has kinda rolled into the whole theme of freedom but I think thats kinda needed and that the whole fight for freedom really is what the final chapter is centred around. I hope this makes sense
 
Jun 24, 11:01 AM
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ShoriTora said:
Ah thank you. I don't think the children one really changes much, "allowed" sounds bad and I hope that's just a mistranslation but I think the idea is that despite the horrible relationship between Ymir and Fritz the children and what they signify is kinda a bright spot in their relationship. Despite the "long nightmare" she had to go through the children represent the chance for life to continue, linking back to the whole idea that children can continue to fight and continue the dreams of the next generation like we see through the child in the final pages

Yimir didn't care about her children her whole life. Just look at her face every time she holds a child lol. "You was rapes but at least your child will be a bright spot". I get it, good message I guess.

Children can continue to fight? Have you read the manga where almost every second character talked about "getting children out of the forest" and came to that conclusion?

ShoriTora said:
we see the royal family develop into a force for positive change through Historia and the possibility for diplomacy can be realised

Positive change because Eren gaslighted her to fuck her childhood bully who later became "childhood friend" in guidebook? Diplomacy when Historia says that Eren was right and one side of the conflict should be wiped out? Diplomacy when Paradis is carped bombed to dust in like ~70 years?

ShoriTora said:
but through the descendant of Mikasa and the lasting memory of the tree, beauty persists and the possibility for one day achieving that freedom remains, and even with that seeming near impossible with war being inevitable, that dream is worth sacrificing lives for as we've seen through the whole story.

Yep, the dream of saving your ~7 friends is worth committing world genocide I get it buddy.

ShoriTora said:
Basically my point is I think this is kind of an Armin thanking Eren situation where they aren't being thanked for their actions or what happened to them but what they did them for or in this case what it ended up achieving

You think Armin is the only problem? Reread the chapter, Eren is presented as some sort of "tragic hero" after 80% world genocide. Every single alliance member didn't care about whole world. They thanked Eren because he made them world heroes and keeped their families alive. "What a man you are...", " I wanted to talk to him", Annie cries and says "He told us to live long lives". Eren is a hero for committing genocide for his friends and that's exactly how the narrative treats him in the end.

ShoriTora said:
I realise this has kinda rolled into the whole theme of freedom but I think thats kinda needed and that the whole fight for freedom really is what the final chapter is centred around. I hope this makes sense

Whole freedom fight subolot was retconed the moment Eren's friends were confirmed to be his only goal. He didn't care about anything but his friends. He didn't care that Paradis will be nuked later together with his friends children and grandchildren.

Just one question. Are you an r/aor subreddit user because you surely sound like one.
 
Jun 24, 11:09 AM
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its a reverse Mist ending anyway

Mist ending or AnR ending - the main character killed his love ones
reverse Mist ending or AnR ending - his love ones killed the main character
 
Jun 24, 10:14 PM
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I personally like the ending. I have my problems with it but overall I thought it was solid.

I didn't hate what Eren's motivations turned out to be. This was a character that was kept in the dark for the majority of the series since post time skip and I would have been fine if it had gone either routes as I was incredibly neutral on Eren being the ultimate symbol of freedom or Eren being a tragic character who was ready to sacrifice his own freedom to save his friends which is exactly what he accomplished.

I actually like the fact the fact that a lot of things were left ambiguous. I did want an explanation for every single detail. That would be robbing the viewers of endless hours of theory crafting and speculation and I live for that sort of stuff. You could make the argument that he left too many things ambiguous but I like what we got here.

I didn't hate that Ymir was in "love" with King Fritz. It was meant to be taken as toxic and horrible and a consequence of Stockholm Syndrome. She wanted to be free of this "love" which is what Eren accomplished.

I didn't hate the scene where Reiner was sniffing the letter. I know a lot of people felt like it was an insulating way to end his character arc but I didn't see it way. To me, his arc ended with the convo he had with his mom and now he's allowed to be the older version of Reiner that everyone of his comrades had initially grown attached to.

I LOVED the way Yams concluded Zeke's arc. It was perfect for me and why I defend chapter 137 despite its faults. The convo he had with Armin in Paths is incredibly we written and everything about him in that chapter makes up my favourite moment in this entire finale.

I like the way a lot of the themes were handled especially surrounding about the inevitability of war and peace never being an eternal constant. The world is a cruel place but it's also beautiful and so it's up to us to find meaning in a world designed to crush any semblance of it. Just enjoy life and a lot of the beautiful little things that make you happy before it gets inevitably taken away.

There are definitely things about the ending that I disliked but I really think a lot of the hate that we see now won't be as prevalent when the anime olies experience this. I feel like this is the kind of ending that will play out better in the anime and people will eventually come around to accepting the ending once the dust settles and the storm subsides.
 
 
Jun 25, 12:40 AM

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JosephSaber40 said:
@AmadeusK525

the end has no build up or preparation it was changed last minute, there is also a lot of retcons, for example, the author dedicated two entire arcs to show the development of Eren where he learned that he must believe in himself and that his decision matters and he must take responsibility for his actions this living breathing nature of AOT was demonstrated in chasing Annie in the forest arc and the uprising arc, the end undermined all that to a linear story where Eren basically has no choice and was a slave to a predetermined path WTF, and you seriously want to convince this is what Isayama has planned to throw his story in the trash, did I also mentioned that EreMikasa, Eren and King Fritz has no development in the story?!, not to mention that these disgusting romance glorifies rape and abuse, did I also mention that in the guidebook Historia's bully became her friend while in previous chapters Historia stated explicitly that she had no friends but animals in her childhood WTF, why would Eren lie for third of the story following a trash 80% rumbling if the island got destroyed in the end???!!!, look how AOT is advertised by publishers it's advertised as a romance story this is diverging away from its original themes about war, racism, corruption and cruelty, this should be considered as an absolute failure by everyone.

there are many theories behind this ending, it's quite obvious that we may get a sequel within 5 years after season 4 finishes airing so you may want to reserve your judgment.


It isn’t a romance story. It’s bad. But it’s incredibly bad to reduce it to being a romance story. Racism was terribly explored during marley and wfp. Everybody outside Paradis were painted as one dimensional monsters.
Corruption.. where? Corruption is barely talked about after uprising.
War? Laughable since it was only there to demonstrate the strength of Marley?

Post timeskip AoT has been laughable in all regards and people are only realizing this now because their rose colored glasses are off.

The Historia complaint is dumb. You complain about her marrying her childhood bully and then want her to get impregnated by a mentally ill genocidal maniac? I laugh.

I do agree Eren being a slave to fate is bad but then again the themes of nature vs nurture is debated throughout the story. Was Eren born that way or was he made into a freedom hungry monster?
 
Jun 25, 8:01 AM
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engich said:

Yimir didn't care about her children her whole life. Just look at her face every time she holds a child lol. "You was rapes but at least your child will be a bright spot". I get it, good message I guess.

Children can continue to fight? Have you read the manga where almost every second character talked about "getting children out of the forest" and came to that conclusion?

In regards to Ymir I don't think going by her "face" is very convincing. I would argue Ymir crying with her children when she imagines King Fritz dying is a sign that she would've wanted to be with her kids if she wasn't so deluded into loving King Fritz.

The theme of getting children out of the forest, while a crucial one, I would argue is just as prevalent as the whole generational conflict. We see in Erwin's speech, one of the most iconic moments in the series, Erwin and the scouts sacrifice themselves and "trust the meanings of [their] lives to the next generation." You could argue that to be equally as important as the theme of getting children out of the forest. The ending could both be a bleak ending with a child in the forest, still subjected to war, or a hopeful ending, knowing the alliance did everything they can and through the symbol of the tree there's possibility for change. I think both interpretations are valid.

engich said:

Positive change because Eren gaslighted her to fuck her childhood bully who later became "childhood friend" in guidebook? Diplomacy when Historia says that Eren was right and one side of the conflict should be wiped out? Diplomacy when Paradis is carped bombed to dust in like ~70 years?

The whole childhood friend in the guidebook is dumb I agree, but Eren never forced her to have a child. Given that we know Eren didn't have a child, we can assume "What would you think about me having a child" from 130 is Historia telling Eren. Historia decided to have a child.

And Historia actually condemned genocide, saying again in 130 "Not everyone outside the walls is our enemy." She cooperates in keeping the secret but she never agrees with it, and is shown to be burdened by it in the War for Paradis arc. I don't know where you're getting the idea that she says Eren is right because after 130 we don't see her again canonically until 107 when her pregnancy is revealed and she doesn't have any other lines of dialogue for the rest of the series I don't think, which I think is a missed opportunity as well but that's irrelevant to my point.

Also I said diplomacy can be realised, not that it will be. Of course war is inevitable, despite temporary peace, but those steps towards trying to create peace are important regardless. Also I think its important to note that Paradis is never "destroyed" imo. The fact Mikasa's descendant is able still alive long after Paradis is attacked is proof that some kind of civilisation still exists on the island. I think that's important to distinguish. The fact that life continues and there's still a chance for peace and freedom means the past lives can still have meaning, again linking back to Erwin's speech.

engich said:
ShoriTora said:
but through the descendant of Mikasa and the lasting memory of the tree, beauty persists and the possibility for one day achieving that freedom remains, and even with that seeming near impossible with war being inevitable, that dream is worth sacrificing lives for as we've seen through the whole story.

Yep, the dream of saving your ~7 friends is worth committing world genocide I get it buddy.

I mean that just isn't what I said lmao, I was referring to freedom when I referenced that dream, as I said in that exact same sentence.

engich said:

You think Armin is the only problem? Reread the chapter, Eren is presented as some sort of "tragic hero" after 80% world genocide. Every single alliance member didn't care about whole world. They thanked Eren because he made them world heroes and keeped their families alive. "What a man you are...", " I wanted to talk to him", Annie cries and says "He told us to live long lives". Eren is a hero for committing genocide for his friends and that's exactly how the narrative treats him in the end.

In the official kodansha translations no one says "What a man you are", the closest there is is Reiner says "You really are a...". Jean calls him "conscientious", meaning he was trying to do the right thing, but as we've already established him trying to do good but we also know through Annie also saying things like "I never asked for this" none of them wanted genocide or condone it. The only one that stood out to me as weird was Connie saying "he said even my mum would go back", but again he's not condoning or calling Eren a hero. The titan curse being lifted is something Mikasa achieved by freeing Ymir.

engich said:

Whole freedom fight subolot was retconed the moment Eren's friends were confirmed to be his only goal. He didn't care about anything but his friends. He didn't care that Paradis will be nuked later together with his friends children and grandchildren.

Eren’s not only motivated by his friends, he’s shown to be just as motivated by freedom, we see this both when he says “Even if I didn’t know that you’d stop me in the end I think I still would have flattened this world” and, despite not knowing why, the rumbling because, as his father told him, “you are free”. The way I see it Eren is aware that the future is almost impossible to change, but still tries to regardless, being both that suicidal blockhead and the attack titan that both strive ahead for freedom. Also its well established Eren can’t see beyond his own life, being the last attack titan, and while he doesn’t want to leave paradis’s future to chance he trusts in his friends to achieve that freedom he failed to find. I think this is all summed up pretty well in “I don’t know what happens after I die but I know you can make it to the other side of the walls. Humanity will be saved by you, Armin”. Armin is saving both the world from Eren but from conflict. These words hold particular significance being Eren’s last. Of course Armin isn’t able to fully achieve this freedom but I don’t think that’s necessarily a problem, and links back to the whole generational thing from the beginning.

engich said:

Just one question. Are you an r/aor subreddit user because you surely sound like one.

I don't use reddit lmao that place is awful.

 
Jun 25, 3:46 PM
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Posts: 108
ShoriTora said:
In regards to Ymir I don't think going by her "face" is very convincing. I would argue Ymir crying with her children when she imagines King Fritz dying is a sign that she would've wanted to be with her kids if she wasn't so deluded into loving King Fritz.

Yimir loved Fritz for 2000 years (much more if we consider that time in paths is different from real world) and doomed all her ancestors to be treated as devils. Such a good mother.
ShoriTora said:
The theme of getting children out of the forest, while a crucial one, I would argue is just as prevalent as the whole generational conflict. We see in Erwin's speech, one of the most iconic moments in the series, Erwin and the scouts sacrifice themselves and "trust the meanings of [their] lives to the next generation." You could argue that to be equally as important as the theme of getting children out of the forest. The ending could both be a bleak ending with a child in the forest, still subjected to war, or a hopeful ending, knowing the alliance did everything they can and through the symbol of the tree there's possibility for change. I think both interpretations are valid.

You've literally read the story with the message about burdening the next generations then. Good for you I guess. Grisha, Karina, and Mr. Leonhart are perfect parents then probably.
ShoriTora said:
The whole childhood friend in the guidebook is dumb I agree, but Eren never forced her to have a child. Given that we know Eren didn't have a child, we can assume "What would you think about me having a child" from 130 is Historia telling Eren. Historia decided to have a child.
And Historia actually condemned genocide, saying again in 130 "Not everyone outside the walls is our enemy." She cooperates in keeping the secret but she never agrees with it, and is shown to be burdened by it in the War for Paradis arc. I don't know where you're getting the idea that she says Eren is right because after 130 we don't see her again canonically until 107 when her pregnancy is revealed and she doesn't have any other lines of dialogue for the rest of the series I don't think, which I think is a missed opportunity as well but that's irrelevant to my point.
Also I said diplomacy can be realised, not that it will be. Of course war is inevitable, despite temporary peace, but those steps towards trying to create peace are important regardless. Also I think its important to note that Paradis is never "destroyed" imo. The fact Mikasa's descendant is able still alive long after Paradis is attacked is proof that some kind of civilisation still exists on the island. I think that's important to distinguish. The fact that life continues and there's still a chance for peace and freedom means the past lives can still have meaning, again linking back to Erwin's speech.


He did. Eren needed Zeke for his plan so he lied to Historia that he will rumble whole world to save Paradis. Historia as Paradis queen in the end agreed with his plan. But his actual plan was to make his friends heroes so he pretty much pushed her to be fucked by her bully. Sorry if it breaks your uwu Eren interpretation.

Did you skip pages or just speedread? Or what do you mean by "I don't know where you're getting the idea that she says Eren is right because after 130 we don't see her again canonically until 107 when her pregnancy is revealed and she doesn't have any other lines of dialogue for the rest of the series I don't think, which I think is a missed opportunity as well but that's irrelevant to my point."?

Historia is literally in chapter 139 saying that Eren is right and one side of the conflict should be wiped out?
ShoriTora said:
I mean that just isn't what I said lmao, I was referring to freedom when I referenced that dream, as I said in that exact same sentence.

Eren's main goal is to save his friends btw. So he fought for his ~7 friends. Everyting else is secondary.
ShoriTora said:
In the official kodansha translations no one says "What a man you are", the closest there is is Reiner says "You really are a...". Jean calls him "conscientious", meaning he was trying to do the right thing, but as we've already established him trying to do good but we also know through Annie also saying things like "I never asked for this" none of them wanted genocide or condone it. The only one that stood out to me as weird was Connie saying "he said even my mum would go back", but again he's not condoning or calling Eren a hero. The titan curse being lifted is something Mikasa achieved by freeing Ymir.

Learn to read between the lines buddy. Eren is made a hero by the narrative. Every alliance member mourns him after his genocide. Pieck goes from "perish nightmare" to "i want to talk to him" after it turns out that he genocided the world for them.
ShoriTora said:
Eren’s not only motivated by his friends, he’s shown to be just as motivated by freedom, we see this both when he says “Even if I didn’t know that you’d stop me in the end I think I still would have flattened this world” and, despite not knowing why, the rumbling because, as his father told him, “you are free”. The way I see it Eren is aware that the future is almost impossible to change, but still tries to regardless, being both that suicidal blockhead and the attack titan that both strive ahead for freedom. Also its well established Eren can’t see beyond his own life, being the last attack titan, and while he doesn’t want to leave paradis’s future to chance he trusts in his friends to achieve that freedom he failed to find. I think this is all summed up pretty well in “I don’t know what happens after I die but I know you can make it to the other side of the walls. Humanity will be saved by you, Armin”. Armin is saving both the world from Eren but from conflict. These words hold particular significance being Eren’s last. Of course Armin isn’t able to fully achieve this freedom but I don’t think that’s necessarily a problem, and links back to the whole generational thing from the beginning.

"Eren's true intention is to give his friends a way to live a long life". Sorry but Isayama disagrees with you.

Armin saves only the outside world. Paradis is carped bombed.
ShoriTora said:
I don't use reddit lmao that place is awful.

They will like your takes. Maybe you should join them.
 

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