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Feb 14, 2021 11:35 AM
#1
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Feb 2021
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Divisive Narrative Continues with CH137 Release (SPOILS CH91-CH137)

I'm surprised that for the last 30 chapters (War for Paradis Arc), the manga score continues to creep upwards.

At the beginning of the War for Paradis Arc, the score for the SnK manga was 8.54, which about matched the scores for each of the from season 1 to season 3.1 of the anime. Now the SnK manga has a score of 8.73.

In fact, the score has up-ticked from 8.72 to 8.73 since the release of CH137, a chapter that seems to have divided the fandom even further. CH137 is seemingly more divisive than early Marley & early WfP chapters. Early WfP chapters devoted a significant amount of time on an arc about Gabi that divided the fandom. And early Marley chapters, which according to the replies in the CH91 discussion post, ham-fistedly introduced new story elements which included story-telling that seemingly abandoned established characters, in favor of a completely different cast of characters.

I really believed that the score, at 8.72 the day before CH137's release, would tumble when I saw the number of replies that the CH137 Discussion post has received and how many of those replies communicated readers' displeasure of the chapter & where they believe the narrative seems to be headed in general.

So far my opinion of the narrative has stayed the same since the Marley Arc. I like the direction Isayama went with Eren's arc, I like that all the characters' decisions and behavior have remained consistent, the purposefulness of the story elements being introduced, and the coherence of the story-telling. The problems I with the writing are due to a lack of consistent pacing and a lack of character writing. From what I can tell, the average score that users have given to anime and manga is a 7, not 5. For me, Snk has earned a minimum of an 8 based on the body of Isayama's work thus far. Depending on the content of CH138 and CH139, I can see myself increasing the score I've given Snk from an 8, currently, to a 9.

I don't subscribe to theory that the increase is due to bots. I believe that for as many bots attempting to increase a score, that same number of bots attempt to decrease the score. In addition, it's easier for a high score to tumble downwards than it is for it to move upwards because there's only a slight difference between that high score it and the maximum possible score one can give.

My question:

What element(s) of narrative do you think is(are) causing the score to tick upwards rather than downwards, despite how divided readers' opinions are, concerning the direction that the story has headed?
qguffeyFeb 14, 2021 3:32 PM
Feb 14, 2021 12:38 PM
#2

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Nov 2008
940
Since the series is ending soon, many curious people are quite possibly catching up to the manga at the moment, basing their ratings on their reception of chapters like 96, 100, 104, 113, 119, 122 and 130.

Then there’s also the fact that many people were overwhelmed by chapter 137, embracing the (long-overdue, but also very suspicious) moments of relief their favorite characters have finally received.

Critics tend to be louder than Enthusiasts and this results in a crooked view of the overall reception of this chapter, or the entire Rumbling Arc (123-139) for that matter.

I don’t think the quality dropped after chapter 123 like many people do seem to think though. While the current Arc lacks a lot of the intrigue and plot-twists which AoT is loved for, it introduces a lot of new and amazing elements too.

I do get the hate for chapter 137, but I appreciate how Isayama is having us all look into the wrong direction with this one.
Feb 14, 2021 1:48 PM
#3

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Jan 2020
142
MironBiron said:
Since the series is ending soon, many curious people are quite possibly catching up to the manga at the moment, basing their ratings on their reception of chapters like 96, 100, 104, 113, 119, 122 and 130.

Then there’s also the fact that many people were overwhelmed by chapter 137, embracing the (long-overdue, but also very suspicious) moments of relief their favorite characters have finally received.

Critics tend to be louder than Enthusiasts and this results in a crooked view of the overall reception of this chapter, or the entire Rumbling Arc (123-139) for that matter.

I don’t think the quality dropped after chapter 123 like many people do seem to think though. While the current Arc lacks a lot of the intrigue and plot-twists which AoT is loved for, it introduces a lot of new and amazing elements too.

I do get the hate for chapter 137, but I appreciate how Isayama is having us all look into the wrong direction with this one.


@MironBiron, you give me hope, do you still think that there's a possibility that AOT will not end in all old enemies making peace with one another? Can you expand on the wrong and the right direction you're hinting at?
Feb 14, 2021 2:03 PM
#4

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Aug 2019
460
The score is going up because the manga was severely underrated. Many rated it low when the first season was airing and it had that popular to hate thing.

I mean, S3P2 has a 9.10 and The Final Season a 9.17
cAbaddonFeb 14, 2021 2:16 PM
Feb 14, 2021 3:07 PM
#5

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Nov 2008
940
SoranoCloud said:
Can you expand on the wrong and the right direction you're hinting at?

The wrong direction would be to approach the ending by anticipating a logical, straight forwarded outcome of The Alliance’s supposedly heroic battle against Eren Yaeger. Isayama currently has us looking into this direction more than ever after giving us a heroically appearing, clear-cut conclusion (filled with all the tropes associated with this kind of approach) in the previous chapter.

The right direction would be to listen to Armin’s words from Chapter 135 and conclude that this wasn’t about Eren versus The Alliance to begin with: This resistance is coming from Ymir. Eren on the other hand, in order to clear a path of freedom for his people, is (along with destroying almost all of humanity) trying to force Ymir into a position where she has to end Titanization / The Curse.

Eren’s way of reaching this goal is to have himself get defeated by The Alliance in order for the sunlight to trigger a Mindless Rumbling (a total disaster) which is only to be stopped if someone convinces Ymir to lift up The Curse. I suspect that stuff is about to get pretty dark in the next chapter.

Isayama was inspired by Guardians of the Galaxy while writing this Arc (according to an interview from 2018) and while it’s undoubtedly a superhero film, it is mostly a satirical, comedic and subversive work of fiction that criticizes its own genre by implementing its very tropes exhaustively. The last chapter makes for a much better read when you decide to read it as subversive bait that pleases one part of the fanbase while upsetting the other (with its deliberately anticlimactic, trope-filled writing), only to deliver a series of unexpected blows in its following two chapters.

Don’t forget that the man has told us less than two years ago that he’s progressing to a more nuanced approach to what he initially had in mind for the ending of Attack on Titan. And according to Isayama, for a work of fiction to become memorable, it needs to be able to phenomenally hurt someone.

The more naive and heroically straightforward the third-to-last chapter is, the more unexpected the final two will be. Trust me on this. A skilled writer like Isayama himself knows his tone, themes and references. Writing character interactions as cliche and shallow as Armin’s words to Bertolt from last chapter (or Zeke’s words to Grisha and Xaver) is extremely hard to do when you know your craft as well as Isayama does. It’s there to please one part of the fanbase, confuse the other, while having both of them look into a very simpleminded direction (a big, heroical win for The Alliance) in order to make that final series of twists rise in impact.

Also: Watch out for Mikasa in these final two chapters because she is coming.
Feb 14, 2021 3:17 PM
#6

Offline
Jan 2020
142
@MironBiron, thank a lot for taking your time to reply! Your theory is really interesting, and your trust in Isayama's skill is truly refreshing. I do hope he knows what he's doing.

I can't wait to see the next chapter, I have a goal in life for the next two months :)
Feb 14, 2021 3:37 PM
#7

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Oct 2020
2066
MironBiron said:
SoranoCloud said:
Can you expand on the wrong and the right direction you're hinting at?

The wrong direction would be to approach the ending by anticipating a logical, straight forwarded outcome of The Alliance’s supposedly heroic battle against Eren Yaeger. Isayama currently has us looking into this direction more than ever after giving us a heroically appearing, clear-cut conclusion (filled with all the tropes associated with this kind of approach) in the previous chapter.

The right direction would be to listen to Armin’s words from Chapter 135 and conclude that this wasn’t about Eren versus The Alliance to begin with: This resistance is coming from Ymir. Eren on the other hand, in order to clear a path of freedom for his people, is (along with destroying almost all of humanity) trying to force Ymir into a position where she has to end Titanization / The Curse.

Eren’s way of reaching this goal is to have himself get defeated by The Alliance in order for the sunlight to trigger a Mindless Rumbling (a total disaster) which is only to be stopped if someone convinces Ymir to lift up The Curse. I suspect that stuff is about to get pretty dark in the next chapter.

Isayama was inspired by Guardians of the Galaxy while writing this Arc (according to an interview from 2018) and while it’s undoubtedly a superhero film, it is mostly a satirical, comedic and subversive work of fiction that criticizes its own genre by implementing its very tropes exhaustively. The last chapter makes for a much better read when you decide to read it as subversive bait that pleases one part of the fanbase while upsetting the other (with its deliberately anticlimactic, trope-filled writing), only to deliver a series of unexpected blows in its following two chapters.

Don’t forget that the man has told us less than two years ago that he’s progressing to a more nuanced approach to what he initially had in mind for the ending of Attack on Titan. And according to Isayama, for a work of fiction to become memorable, it needs to be able to phenomenally hurt someone.

The more naive and heroically straightforward the third-to-last chapter is, the more unexpected the final two will be. Trust me on this. A skilled writer like Isayama himself knows his tone, themes and references. Writing character interactions as cliche and shallow as Armin’s words to Bertolt from last chapter (or Zeke’s words to Grisha and Xaver) is extremely hard to do when you know your craft as well as Isayama does. It’s there to please one part of the fanbase, confuse the other, while having both of them look into a very simpleminded direction (a big, heroical win for The Alliance) in order to make that final series of twists rise in impact.

Also: Watch out for Mikasa in these final two chapters because she is coming.
I always believed that even after everything, Mikasa is going to somehow ''betray'' the alliance in an attempt to save Eren which will result in her death. Instead of writing Mikasa as someone who finally lets go of Eren obsession, Isayama chooses to make it impossible for her and make it a tragic ending for her character. I never understood people who say Mikasa is a bad character because she lacks character development and can't grow because of Eren. It is precisely because of her attachment to Eren that she is a great character, and whether she lives or dies she will remain a strong one.
Feb 14, 2021 3:49 PM
#8

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Jun 2020
3749
Anime onlies getting impatient for the next episode and reading all the best chapters
Feb 14, 2021 6:46 PM
#9

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Sep 2019
2144
MironBiron said:
Since the series is ending soon, many curious people are quite possibly catching up to the manga at the moment, basing their ratings on their reception of chapters like 96, 100, 104, 113, 119, 122 and 130.

Then there’s also the fact that many people were overwhelmed by chapter 137, embracing the (long-overdue, but also very suspicious) moments of relief their favorite characters have finally received.

Critics tend to be louder than Enthusiasts and this results in a crooked view of the overall reception of this chapter, or the entire Rumbling Arc (123-139) for that matter.

I don’t think the quality dropped after chapter 123 like many people do seem to think though. While the current Arc lacks a lot of the intrigue and plot-twists which AoT is loved for, it introduces a lot of new and amazing elements too.

I do get the hate for chapter 137, but I appreciate how Isayama is having us all look into the wrong direction with this one.
too much positiveness. I might go see some evil narrative documentaries after reading it.
"I think I wanted to attack something. Like betraying people or hurting people. And, well, it's not exactly nice, but hurting the readers too... In all honestly, I feel that's what I really wanted to do. For me, as a reader, when I think, "this manga will remain in my heart," it means, for example, it phenomenally hurt me: It's those kinds of experiences I'm after." - Pajime Hisayama (My favourite hurting author).
Feb 14, 2021 7:25 PM

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Oct 2017
4020
MironBiron said:
Since the series is ending soon, many curious people are quite possibly catching up to the manga at the moment, basing their ratings on their reception of chapters like 96, 100, 104, 113, 119, 122 and 130.

Then there’s also the fact that many people were overwhelmed by chapter 137, embracing the (long-overdue, but also very suspicious) moments of relief their favorite characters have finally received.

Critics tend to be louder than Enthusiasts and this results in a crooked view of the overall reception of this chapter, or the entire Rumbling Arc (123-139) for that matter.

I don’t think the quality dropped after chapter 123 like many people do seem to think though. While the current Arc lacks a lot of the intrigue and plot-twists which AoT is loved for, it introduces a lot of new and amazing elements too.

I do get the hate for chapter 137, but I appreciate how Isayama is having us all look into the wrong direction with this one.


I mean I saw that he was going to have Eren lose with Armin winning for quite awhile since Marley. So I wouldn't say he had us looking in the wrong direction. The whole Guardians of the Galaxy quote has been out for awhile anyone who thought he was to have some Eren winning ending was delusional. What I didn't expect was how he had Armin win and I wouldn't act like that is a positive.

People can have whatever opinions they want as long as people are respectful. Though fans need to stop also getting defensive or delegitimizing opinions over the criticism. Lots of shows that have high ratings have had divisive opinions on how it ends. Since AOT is basically flesh mecha in terms of the plot you only have to look at EVA to see that. Regardless lots of people have this idea that they shouldn't score until the end and yeah even with the critique most people are okay with the direction of the series. Plus even for me who has been negative on this last arc I still gave it a 7 because it still was a mostly positive experience. Frustration with this last arc doesn't mean a negative score/opinion for the entire work.

Also to OP how did Eren's motivations stay consistent? One of you guys can explain it to me but this by far my biggest problem why did Eren attempt to kill his friends. That makes no sense and arcs like Paradise if anything added to the narrative. I don't really know what his character is supposed to be honestly outside of a plot device.

Still I will be surprised once this arc does get adapted if there isn't going to be a heated debate over the events of CH137,
BilboBaggins365Feb 14, 2021 7:35 PM
Feb 14, 2021 11:10 PM

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@chiearlymorning

It’s not copium though.
Feb 15, 2021 12:51 AM
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Feb 2021
119
BilboBaggins365 said:
Also to OP how did Eren's motivations stay consistent? One of you guys can explain it to me but this by far my biggest problem why did Eren attempt to kill his friends. That makes no sense and arcs like Paradise if anything added to the narrative. I don't really know what his character is supposed to be honestly outside of a plot device.

Still I will be surprised once this arc does get adapted if there isn't going to be a heated debate over the events of CH137,


Thanks for replying.

When I say 'consistent,' I mean that when characters makes certain decisions or behave a certain way, they don't come completely out of left field. Isayama does a good job of giving readers cues, whether it's prior events in the plot, prior dialogue, or a track record of prior behavior, that one can point to justify/or be used to explain or understand why characters make certain decisions or take certain actions. Though I will say that the unorthodox nature of Isayama's writing, where events are sometimes written out of order, restricts the number or lessens the prominence of the cues.

I expected Eren to be willing to attack his friends (or willing to let Ymir attack his friends) because of the hostility he's shown towards them since the start of the War for Paradis Arc...plus his willingness to commit such extreme violence...plus the commitment he's displayed throughout the story towards his stated intensions....plus his cryptic words when he pulled his friends into PATHS as they flew towards him.

Before CH137, the first 6 or 7 chapters of the Marley Arc had received some of the worst reviews ever on the chapter discussion forum polls up to that point. But I've barely seen manga readers criticize the plot when the anime released the episodes covering those chapters. If you read the anime episode discussion forums, you'd think that manga readers had always viewed that stretch of the manga as masterful writing. I have little doubt that this sort of response by manga readers will occur when the episode covering chapter 137 is released.
qguffeyFeb 15, 2021 12:54 AM
Feb 15, 2021 1:25 AM
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Apr 2018
403
AoT manga score has always been ridiculously underscored. It's only climbing up now since more people are adding it to their lists. Expect a huge spike after it's completed as well
Feb 15, 2021 3:52 AM

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940
BilboBaggins365 said:
I mean I saw that he was going to have Eren lose with Armin winning for quite awhile since Marley. So I wouldn't say he had us looking in the wrong direction.

I see Isayama still has you looking into the wrong direction though.

This wasn’t about Eren losing or winning in the first place, but considering the fact that we’re all still talking about that, Isayama’s diversion strategy did its job quite well.

I love this man.
Feb 15, 2021 4:36 AM
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Feb 2021
119
MironBiron said:
BilboBaggins365 said:
I mean I saw that he was going to have Eren lose with Armin winning for quite awhile since Marley. So I wouldn't say he had us looking in the wrong direction.

I see Isayama still has you looking into the wrong direction though.

This wasn’t about Eren losing or winning in the first place, but considering the fact that we’re all still talking about that, Isayama’s diversion strategy did its job quite well.

I love this man.


Yeah....there's no one who would be able to confirm for readers the amount of people living outside of the island, which is the whole point of the rumbling--to make sure only Paradisians exist in the world.

Because of that, I'm thinking the ending will have nothing to do with whether or not the rumbling is "successful" or not.

But I'm stumped on what the ending conflict will be then, specifically....
Feb 15, 2021 11:10 AM

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MironBiron said:
BilboBaggins365 said:
I mean I saw that he was going to have Eren lose with Armin winning for quite awhile since Marley. So I wouldn't say he had us looking in the wrong direction.

I see Isayama still has you looking into the wrong direction though.

This wasn’t about Eren losing or winning in the first place, but considering the fact that we’re all still talking about that, Isayama’s diversion strategy did its job quite well.

I love this man.


Why because Eren wanted them to stop him? I mean if he goes with that then there are more things he has to explain in a short amount of time. It's kinda like the Code Geass ending. Honestly it would help fix some stuff but then in some ways it kinda undermines Eren's development to some degree if he was just doing this predetermined instead of his own will. That probably is the likely ending though.

qguffey said:
BilboBaggins365 said:
Also to OP how did Eren's motivations stay consistent? One of you guys can explain it to me but this by far my biggest problem why did Eren attempt to kill his friends. That makes no sense and arcs like Paradise if anything added to the narrative. I don't really know what his character is supposed to be honestly outside of a plot device.

Still I will be surprised once this arc does get adapted if there isn't going to be a heated debate over the events of CH137,


Thanks for replying.

When I say 'consistent,' I mean that when characters makes certain decisions or behave a certain way, they don't come completely out of left field. Isayama does a good job of giving readers cues, whether it's prior events in the plot, prior dialogue, or a track record of prior behavior, that one can point to justify/or be used to explain or understand why characters make certain decisions or take certain actions. Though I will say that the unorthodox nature of Isayama's writing, where events are sometimes written out of order, restricts the number or lessens the prominence of the cues.

I expected Eren to be willing to attack his friends (or willing to let Ymir attack his friends) because of the hostility he's shown towards them since the start of the War for Paradis Arc...plus his willingness to commit such extreme violence...plus the commitment he's displayed throughout the story towards his stated intensions....plus his cryptic words when he pulled his friends into PATHS as they flew towards him.

Before CH137, the first 6 or 7 chapters of the Marley Arc had received some of the worst reviews ever on the chapter discussion forum polls up to that point. But I've barely seen manga readers criticize the plot when the anime released the episodes covering those chapters. If you read the anime episode discussion forums, you'd think that manga readers had always viewed that stretch of the manga as masterful writing. I have little doubt that this sort of response by manga readers will occur when the episode covering chapter 137 is released.



First the War for Paradise arc hammered home Eren's love for his friends. Sure it wasn't in a linear time frame and between say the railroad scene and the current events things could have changed but here is the problem there is nothing established or developed in his current state that would explain his new found hostility. I am not saying he couldn't have changed I am saying it wasn't properly built up to. Outside of his own personal freedom the second most valuable thing that Eren saw was his friends.

Now valuing his freedom over his friends lives maybe Historia and their child's freedom over them could that have happened sure. The thing is that should have been a massive moral struggle for Eren but we don't see any development of this maybe outside of Eren's short Paths flashbacks.

So even by your definition of consistent no there was no proper build up to Eren killing his friends. It did come out of left field. The only solution to this would be as I said above Eren was forced into it through Paths knowing his friends would be victorious (the whole Armin is who will save the world comment). Which fine that does clear up this big problem if he goes through with that. Still this does undermine some of his big choices because it now wasn't of his own will more so Paths just guiding him to the ideal choice. I guess some people will that but IDK if I am such a fan of how influential that would end up being on his decisions. Though it does fix one of my big problems so I will take it.

Finally I mean IDC about how others viewed Marley I enjoyed it. Though even still Marley had tons more chapters to flesh everything out. We only have two and it's not going to fix every problem with the last arc or lingering problems from before.
BilboBaggins365Feb 15, 2021 11:21 AM
Feb 15, 2021 12:43 PM

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940
BilboBaggins365 said:
Why because Eren wanted them to stop him?

Nope. There’s much more to it. Read my other post in this thread.

There might only be two chapters left, but this shit is far from over.
Feb 15, 2021 2:04 PM
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Feb 2021
119
BilboBaggins365 said:
First the War for Paradise arc hammered home Eren's love for his friends. Sure it wasn't in a linear time frame and between say the railroad scene and the current events things could have changed but here is the problem there is nothing established or developed in his current state that would explain his new found hostility. I am not saying he couldn't have changed I am saying it wasn't properly built up to. Outside of his own personal freedom the second most valuable thing that Eren saw was his friends.
Now valuing his freedom over his friends lives maybe Historia and their child's freedom over them could that have happened sure. The thing is that should have been a massive moral struggle for Eren but we don't see any development of this maybe outside of Eren's short Paths flashbacks.
So even by your definition of consistent no there was no proper build up to Eren killing his friends. It did come out of left field. The only solution to this would be as I said above Eren was forced into it through Paths knowing his friends would be victorious (the whole Armin is who will save the world comment). Which fine that does clear up this big problem if he goes through with that. Still this does undermine some of his big choices because it now wasn't of his own will more so Paths just guiding him to the ideal choice. I guess some people will that but IDK if I am such a fan of how influential that would end up being on his decisions. Though it does fix one of my big problems so I will take it.
Finally I mean IDC about how others viewed Marley I enjoyed it. Though even still Marley had tons more chapters to flesh everything out. We only have two and it's not going to fix every problem with the last arc or lingering problems from before.
I agree that cues in of themselves shouldn't be a stand-in for proper character development (I believe a lack of character writing is a blemish on this overall narrative), but at a certain point cues, if there are enough of them, will make you not completely blindsided...like with Mikasa being a princess: there was barely any dialogue emphasizing her wrist or any visual cues...this particular example isn't about a character's decisions (it's just from the top of my head)...I'm just pointing out that it's important to give readers something they can hold on to that will allow them to better make sense of events later on in the story instead of those events being jarring.

Reading your first paragraph, I was actually thinking about pointing out PATHS and future memories as subtle cue. But you covered that in your 3rd paragraph. I'm more accepting of that cue. It would be so ironic that Eren seems to be so guided by PATHS and future memories that he feels that he has no other choice but to make certain decisions, all the while he is claiming that he's free.

My comment about Marley arc was just say that I believe that the problems readers have with CH137 will hardly be mentioned in the anime discussion for the episode that covers it (just like it was for the Marley arc chapters).
qguffeyFeb 15, 2021 2:17 PM
Feb 15, 2021 3:52 PM

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MironBiron said:
BilboBaggins365 said:
Why because Eren wanted them to stop him?

Nope. There’s much more to it. Read my other post in this thread.

There might only be two chapters left, but this shit is far from over.


Well reading it I guess I suppose if it went that route it would also fix the motivation angle. I would have to go back over her backstory again or just wait until the anime animates it I suppose.

Regardless I am just going to wait until the next chapter until I say more about the conclusion. Ultimately I still find it to be somewhat anticlimactic but at least this way the characters at least resolve in a somewhat satisfying way in that conclusion or the one I stated.

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