| I haven't read the manga, but chatting with a friend who has, left me with this impression: they cut out a loooot of nuance from the source material. With that I absolutely do not mean to downplay the sexual assault displayed in the scene (and ugh @ Dakaretai, I remember that) but rather that in the manga (if I understand correctly) it is shown to be a result of miscommunication, that is quickly apologised about and therefore easier to swallow. Again I HAVE NOT READ THE MANGA so I can't confirm 100%. It is strange though because I find anime usually "fix" that sort of thing! It seems this film adaptation overall cut out a lot of stuff, unfortunately character development included. My friend mentions the manga gets across pretty well Aki's strong desire to change and become a better person, while... As someone who has not read the manga & lacks that knowledge, I don't think the film has really succeeded in expressing that! As you said, I just really don't like Aki now! It's a shame, but I feel they should have either made this movie longer, or tried to get a second season green-lit. As it is, I regard this movie as kind of shallow & just existing to please fans of the original material. |
| But all the clocks in the city Began to whirr and chime: 'O let not Time deceive you, You cannot conquer Time. |
| Well, there are degrees to sexual assault. There was no penetration here, and in the manga there's a panel where Haruki says things stopped "before we had sex". In the movie they instead added a dialogue of Haruki saying "in the end it was consensual", which might be a translation flop but regardless, they didn't alter the content of the manga, since there was clearly no penetration and Haruki was acting very mixed about wanting Akihiko to stop or not. Then he says "I would do anything for you" during the act, so it's not even like Akihiko was wrong to assume Haruki wanted him. Akihiko was very wrong in the way he initiated the sex, which he quickly regrets. It's only a few minutes in the movie and a couple pages in the manga before Akihiko wholly regrets it and is on the verge of crying. So the thing is, this wasn't traumatizing for Haruki. He must've been scared at first for sure, but after realizing what a mess Akihiko was, he was just super sad because he confessed to him at the worst possible moment "and was rejected". He very clearly says he's only upset because he got rejected. Plus, none of this was meaningless. The point of this whole plot is to show how toxic Akihiko's relationships get. In his relationship with Ugetsu, Akihiko was the "hopeless desperate", same role Haruki comes to terms with over the course of this movie. Then Akihiko manages to fix both of those relationships as it was shown in the movie and better yet in the manga. I understand where you're coming from, but I believe context matters here a lot, as well as the fact that the assault lasted a moment and there was no physical damage done. It became consensual as well, halfway through. Let's not forget that they also know each other for ages and the type of relationship they had, which contributes a lot to the way they both reacted. |
RojasebFeb 3, 2021 11:16 AM
| Yeah that part made me uncomfortable. The manga has a lot more dialogue and a lot more context, so the scene didn't stick out as much and felt more like an 'in-the-moment' action that Akihiko immediately regretted, and we get a more sincere apology from Akihiko right afterwards. The line "I'll do anything for you" was placed in a way that fit the scene better too. In the manga, when Haruki asks Akihiko to stop, it seemed more like he was just asking Akihiko to slow down. This is why when Akihiko says sorry, Haruki says, "That's not what you should be apologizing for... I said that I would do anything". Still doesn't make it right, Akihiko should've stopped the first time that Haruki told him to. But the scene made much more sense and seemed less like sexual assault in the manga. The movie makes the scene significantly more disturbing because of the lack in detail :// |
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nightshadekait said: The movie makes the scene significantly more disturbing because of the lack in detail :// I blame the horror movie music |
| I think it's more of a showcasing of how broken Aki's character was at that point. He was temp kicked out by Ugetsu, had to basically offer sex with girls in exchange for places to stay, and on top of all the alcohol and stress had Haru trying to pry into his situation. What I think is the biggest part of this, is that it's a direct contradiction to how Aki's character is talked about before. Like even in the beginning Haru talks about how Aki is like the jack of all trades and perfect at everything (but not a master at anything) yet here he is doing something clearly flawed, which shows how much his "relationship" with Ugetsu is breaking him down. Plus this is essentially the turning point in Aki's character, where he starts learning to move on from his past. In terms of the actual sexual assault itself, it's not like Haru was completely accepting of it, he did try to fight it off in the beginning (something that's actually rarely done with these kinds of scenes lmao). That and Haru was still upset at the whole situation afterwards (though I guess that was more of Aki not wanting to share his problems with him than anything). Aki clearly came to his senses before any penetration happened, and he clearly regretted it straight away. Plus, Haru has known him for a long time, which is probs why he was more understanding that that wasn't Aki's true character and everything else is well put out here Rojaseb said: Well, there are degrees to sexual assault. There was no penetration here, and in the manga there's a panel where Haruki says things stopped "before we had sex". In the movie they instead added a dialogue of Haruki saying "in the end it was consensual", which might be a translation flop but regardless, they didn't alter the content of the manga, since there was clearly no penetration and Haruki was acting very mixed about wanting Akihiko to stop or not. Then he says "I would do anything for you" during the act, so it's not even like Akihiko was wrong to assume Haruki wanted him. Akihiko was very wrong in the way he initiated the sex, which he quickly regrets. It's only a few minutes in the movie and a couple pages in the manga before Akihiko wholly regrets it and is on the verge of crying. So the thing is, this wasn't traumatizing for Haruki. He must've been scared at first for sure, but after realizing what a mess Akihiko was, he was just super sad because he confessed to him at the worst possible moment "and was rejected". He very clearly says he's only upset because he got rejected. Plus, none of this was meaningless. The point of this whole plot is to show how toxic Akihiko's relationships get. In his relationship with Ugetsu, Akihiko was the "hopeless desperate", same role Haruki comes to terms with over the course of this movie. Then Akihiko manages to fix both of those relationships as it was shown in the movie and better yet in the manga. I understand where you're coming from, but I believe context matters here a lot, as well as the fact that the assault lasted a moment and there was no physical damage done. It became consensual as well, halfway through. Let's not forget that they also know each other for ages and the type of relationship they had, which contributes a lot to the way they both reacted. so if anything, I think for a sexual assault scene Given actually does it pretty well, in that it goes well with the present themes/characters without being portrayed as just some pandering to fetishes |
 'On-Hold' is another way for a completionist to say 'Dropped' |
| I just watched the movie and I'm disappointed. Even Given ended up using the same trope that makes me dislike BL otherwise. I have the exact same opinion as you, just glad that someone else noticed it too. I don't buy the excuse that it's "consensual" or Aki was at his limit and that's why he did it - like you might be going through something tough but that should never be an excuse to sexually assault someone who's trying to help you. |
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CrimsonKing25 said: I’ve been going back and forth with putting out this discussion because I wasn’t sure how people would react and if MAL would take it down because of the subject matter. But the more I think about it, the more I really want to put my thoughts out and see how it’s perceived. So here we go. This story arc in particular, while popular, does have some Given fans who feel mixed about it, especially the apartment scene with Aki and Haru. Myself included. Let’s not beat around the bush, what Aki did to Haru was sexual assault. Seeing that in the manga and the anime made me realize just how bad this story arc and romance was written. In what world would a person who was sexually assaulted be with the person who did that to them? It’s also concerning that a lot of people are brushing that aside and are happy that Aki and Haru are together. Again, in what world is it a happy ending that victim of sexual assault would end up with the perpetrator? As a gay man, I do love reading BL/Shounen ai for fun. I don’t go reading them for validation and most of the stories I’ve read are good with some ridiculous ones mixed in and I enjoy them. There is one BL trope where I draw the line and that is sexual assault/rape. For example, Dakaretai has the main love interest rape the main character and that is the start of their ‘relationship’ and I absolutely hated it. With Aki assaulting Haru, it fell into that trope and I was extremely disappointed that Natsuki would write that when Mafuyu and Ritsuka have the healthiest type of relationship. There could’ve been a different way for Aki and Haru to be together without that happening to Haru. If anything, it makes me dislike Aki for his behavior. It also doesn’t help that while Aki did apologize, it still feels strange to have them together after what he did. I can’t say I didn’t enjoy the movie but I also can’t say I liked Aki and Haru as a couple after what happened in the apartment scene. I truly believe that their story deserved better than what they got. I do like Given, I really do. Even though I had gripes with the Aki/Haru arc, there were still parts of the arc I did like but it's not my favorite arc. So, I am interested in hearing people’s thoughts on that scene. I know people who do like them and those who don’t. This scene in particular draws out a lot of thoughts and I am genuinely interested in hearing other’s thoughts. You are right on the spot. That scene made me cringe and it looks out of place. Why are so many BL manga and anime where the seme (top) sexually assault or rape the uke (bottom) and then the uke falls in love with his executioner? The story would have been better with just an attempt of seduction without that assault. |
Waves02 said: This is why as a lesbian I should just keep watching yuri and read lesbian books rather . This anime was never for you in the first place. What even made you watch it? You are not the target audience. |
Waves02 said: chi4ko said: This anime was never for you in the first place. What even made you watch it? You are not the target audience. So what is the target audience? Straight women who fetishize relationships between gay men? By your logic I wouldn't watch shoujo either because it has straight relationships. That's not my target audience either. You do realize that there are people who watch all genres of anime? (Or almost all. I wouldn't touch ecchi, harem or hentai with a thousand foot pole.) Anyway, if you want to watch a decent gay movie, watch Moonlight, not this crap anime that depicts sexual assault in a positive light. The problem with BL is that most of it is highly homophobic. I watched the Given series thinking Maybe This Time they won't pull this shit, but they did. The series was perfect, but the movie destroyed everything the series stood for. I arrived at this movie with the understanding that we'll see how the HEALTHY relationship between Mafuyu and Uenoyama is developing, rather than witnessing sexual assault and for that SA to be brushed off like it was nothing, ending in Haru accept to be in a relationship with his ABUSER. You seem like the type on a crusade for removing 'problematic' content. Why even watch anime in the first place? It's full of 'problematic' stuff, like boob grabs played for laughs, sexualised loli, villains sounding 'gay' (males using very feminine speech) etc. If you're not immune to it, then it's not the right medium for you. You'll always get triggered. Nobody who watches hentai gets assblasted that hentai shows have consent issues - the audience knows what to expect. Nobody who watches hentai rallies to remove certain content and shame people for liking it. Yet here you are totally oblivious to the genre conventions and imposing your worldview onto others, as if it was the only one correct. Cultural imperialism much? The BL genre was never supposed to be 'wholesome family entertainment' (one of the first BL manga was 'Kaze to Ki no Uta' - a story full of controversial elements, like rape) - maybe studying the imdb parental guide (https://m.imdb.com/title/tt11802992/parentalguide?ref_=m_tt_stry_pg) before watching anything would help you decide which titles to avoid. Why are you so fixated on what's 'healthy' in anime in the first place? You are not a child, who needs to be shown uplifting and moralising things on the TV to develop properly. Reading posts like yours I can sort of understand why things like the infamous 4Kids anime censorship came to be. Waves02 said: As a member of the LGB community I have the right to criticize media supposedly depicting us. I do this with yuri as well, obviously. Do you capischi? What right? You're not Japanese. You are not the target audience either. You probably haven't even paid to watch 'given' in one way or another. Your 'right' to criticise BL is on the same level as my 'right' to criticise slasher films, which I have 0 interest in watching and know nothing about. You self-identifying as whatever group doesn't make your opinion about entertainment products any more relevant than anybody else's. |
| I never had a problem with the scene and I actually thought that it was vital because it showed how lost and broken Aki was. He absolutely hated himself. Slept around with anyone. It was all in all self-destructive. Also, he didn't follow through because he was utterly disgusted with himself. If Aki had acted as if nothing had happened later on - that would have been problematic but he does everything he can do become a better person. I know a lot more yuri and yaoi stories which are a lot more problematic then this scene. At least here it had a purpose and also it was never romanticized and made to look like it was totally okay. It wasn't and the way it was framed showed exactly how this scene was meant to be understood. |
| Anime only here. I think the scene itself was portrayed reasonably well — it felt genuinely awful, and my heart broke at Haruki emphasizing he was fine with everything Akihiko needed so long as ‘he wasn’t still there in the morning’, and then also when he ran away crying. And then the next scene treats it like a comical lovers’ spat and plays Haruki’s distress off for a laugh. And then when Haruki comes home and Akihiko is still there, he initially reacts angrily but then eventually lets up on Akihiko... and then the assault is never addressed again and the show proceeds to develop their relationship as if it never happened — as if it were some mere rejection or something! I don’t have any issues with media taking on uncomfortable topics like sexual assault... provided they actually think about what they’re doing with the topic and are doing it for a genuine reason. While I can’t tell if the movie cut important character development here (the pacing was obviously rushed in general), it was very disappointing to see it just get essentially shrugged off — it felt like it was there for no reason and just made me want to punch Akihiko’s smug face for daring to continue freeloading off Haruki after that. Honestly, I don’t even know if I have a problem with Akihiko/Haruki getting together after that scene so much as there has to be development there. There should at least be some sort of redemption arc here where Akihiko works hard to try to earn Haruki’s forgiveness (not that Haruki has to give it or that it should even necessarily be given). Akihiko should have to come to terms with that awful, awful action and the breaking of Haruki’s trust he committed — otherwise you’re just shrugging off assault. And if you’re gonna do that, don’t put the assault there in the first place. There’s better ways to show Akihiko’s fractured mental state/broken relationships than that — certainly many ones that don’t involve the audience getting a violent hatred of the character. |
| Oh god, how did the TERs find their way into this thread? Anyway, the scene was very conflicting for me. What he did was sexual assault. What he did was unforgivable. Him being drunk, him being upset, him being used to meaningless sex, none of that excuses what he did. I can understand from a character standpoint why he did it. I don’t think it was necessary for the writing, and I was pretty disappointed, because one of the things I enjoyed about this series was that there WASN’T sexual assault like so many other BL series. The most I can say is at least it wasn’t romanticized here like it is in so many others. But I genuinely don’t know how Haruki could get with Akihiko after that. I genuinely do not understand how you can still love someone after that and even end up entering a relationship with them, let alone a healthy one (as it seems to end up being in the manga, from what I’ve seen). I mean, he said, “I told you I’d do anything. In the end, it was basically consensual.” That… irks me. I don’t think the writer thought this through at all. What, so was he happy the dude was basically about to do it but just sad that it wasn’t for the right reasons? Idk, I don’t understand sexual attraction, so there’s no way I’m gonna understand this. So yeah, regardless of it being used to show that Akihiko hit a low, I’m still going to do my general thing of deducting a point as I do in these situations. Did it make sense in the writing? Yes. Was it necessary to the story? I don’t think so. |
SuranaMar 5, 2022 12:37 PM
| "It's a tragic misunderstanding that could have been easily avoided if he just finished his sentence in time!" — Richard Watterson (The Amazing World of Gumball) |
| This movie has ruined Akihiko for me. Just wtf... Haru deserves someone better who will treat him right and isn't a freeloader! |
Floral_soapNov 17, 2022 12:47 AM
| Got around to watching Given (only initially started watching episode one years ago), excited that the movie was touching more on Haruki and Akihiko's relationship and that scene disappointed me too. Haru truly deserved better. Akihiko could've been written in a way where he still hurts Haruki without the SA... I'm also in the agreement that the SA trope in MxM relationships is bad, or at least I'm a person who doesn't enjoy problematic content so to me it rubbed me the wrong way. I never really liked BL anime that had that, which is quite a lot. Am I allowed to somehow dissociate that scene and just reimagine that it didn't happen? Gosh. Also did not expect blatant transphobia is this thread. Please ignore Waves02 if transphobia is a trigger to you. Any one who identifies with being trans, you are valid. <3 |
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| I think that scene achieved what it was meant to: creating uncomfortable atmosphere and showing what consequences miscommunication can sometimes bring + showing what mental state both characters were in. I'm surprised why someone would fixate on it so much, it's not the end of the world, jeez. If the guy I loved suddenly did that to me and under the similar circumstances, I'd also be conflicted but, at the end of the day, I wouldn't even care lol and some people here are condemning Haruki and their entire relationship for all eternity because of that one little incident, which is baffling. Rojaseb said: Exactly. People can't seem to comprehend that, for whatever reason. So the thing is, this wasn't traumatizing for Haruki. He must've been scared at first for sure, but after realizing what a mess Akihiko was, he was just super sad because he confessed to him at the worst possible moment "and was rejected". He very clearly says he's only upset because he got rejected. chi4ko said: And, hopefully, it won't ever turn into that.The BL genre was never supposed to be 'wholesome family entertainment' |
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