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Nov 30, 2020 11:56 AM

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Edginess could be part of it, but more than likely a big part of it is that most anime is bad. That's the same for most books, movies, video games, you name it. So, when someone has watched all the good anime (which there isn't a lot, especially if you're considering hundreds of thousands), the chances that even 10% will end up being higher than a 7 is very low if you're trying to be objective.
 
Nov 30, 2020 2:24 PM

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Opticflash said:
katsucats said:
What is "fair"? That seems to be a loaded word. To me, fairness is an ethical concept that only applies to living things. When we speak fair, we should ask "fair to what?" If I pay someone less for the same job, then it wouldn't be fair to that person, and personhood is important because the subject must be able to perceive the disadvantage. If I buy oranges on sale, then it could hardly be said that it isn't fair to the oranges. That wouldn't make sense on an intuitive value. So what are we not being fair to in this case? The anime?
Obviously I am using unfair in this case to mean unequal, unbalanced, or biased. I am referring primarily to the anime in this case but obviously not in the ethical or moral sense. The unfairness towards people would be in the visible list he produces. He is not wrong in doing so because he can use the scale in whatever way he likes.
In that limited sense of "fairness", being unfair is not a bad thing then. It's just a word choice used to make it sound like a bad thing. As for unequal or unbalanced, I suppose it's tautology to say that the weighting is unequal between the delta of different ratings. And as for biased, mathematically speaking, there is always a bias since the mean has to be greater than 0. If you mean biased as in subjective, the entire exercise of rating anime is biased.

Opticflash said:
katsucats said:
I think it makes good sense why one might want to be a bit more particular about anime he cares about over anime that he doesn't. Certainly, the difference between a masterpiece and something slightly less is much more personally significant than the difference between a shit sandwich and something similarly slightly less. What resolution that is lost on the lower end is gained on the higher end. And what matters here is priority. Not your priority, but the person keeping the list's priority.

It is inherently difficult to judge another person's lists. The only thing you know is that by some criteria, there is an ordering. Even in a linear scale, a person cannot know anyway how much the mean is valued, or the subjective judgment that accounts for the variance. The same difference in your list might be a 2-rating difference instead of a 1 just because another person is more decisive, and it makes no difference, as far as you're concerned, whether this difference in rating happens in the heart or the mind.
Of course it makes sense for him to do so, just as it makes sense for him to use a scale of 1-10 only for anime he deems "above average" in order to even better resolve the anime he likes; he could just as well take 1 as the center of a normal distribution. However if his most common rating is a 1 or 2, I would be naturally curious as to why. If he claims he just shoves "below average" anime in the 1 or 2 category, while giving more room to resolve anime he likes, then I would say "ok, that makes sense" and go about my day. If he claims he doesn't like anime in general, I would be curious as to why he bothers with anime.

Difficulty in judging a person's list is precisely the reason for asking the question "what's the meaning behind your list?" or "why did you give most anime a 1-4?" because it's an uncommon occurrence. Having a normal distribution, regardless of the variance, is uninteresting. What is more interesting is a non-symmetrical distribution skewed towards the lower end of the rating scale. Therefore I would naturally be curious enough to ask for the reason for their distribution.
Questioning is fair; however, in your previous posts, you said having a skewed rating is unfair (i.e. uneven), and that being uneven "defeats much of the purpose of" rating anime. That seems to be a statement, not a question.

Opticflash said:
katsucats said:
I personally find it unproductive to question another person's motives. Suppose the person in question rated 1 anime a 10 and 100 other anime 1's. Maybe he absolutely loved one anime and hated the others. In which case you ask, why does he even bother with a medium with such a low success rate. But that's not a decision for you to make. That's what he chose to do with his time, and it doesn't make his list less valid just because he hated every anime that he watched except one.

A legitimate question that isn't ad hominem (i.e. attacking his character) would be whether he truly hates all the 1's the same, and whether, if there truly isn't any other anime occupying the other ratings, he could distribute them better to make a distinction. But the irony there is if he does that, then the scale is no longer linear, since he would have filled up 9 spots for anime that he relatively dislikes for the purposes of making a distinction, and 1 spot for anime he actually likes.

That's why the linearity does not matter at all.


What does unproductive mean? If they rated one anime a 10 and 100 others a 1, of course I'd be naturally curious as to why they would do so and so would most other people. Thus I would question whether they enjoy anime in general, and, if not, why they would bother with the medium. You seem to be under the impression that I am trying to invalidate other people's lists or else trying to tell them what they should be doing. No, I am merely asking a question or questions(s) to fundamentally better rationalize their list and understand their perspective or tastes. You're not an asshole or any less of a person because you gave most anime a 1-4. You're at 100% liberty in doing so and of course you're not wrong for it. What I am saying is "I'm curious. It appears that you don't like anime in general or else a harsh reviewer. Can you tell me the reason for your list or explain your perspective?"
That seems curious, especially since you previously implied that a skewed list has no or limited purpose. If it's merely a question, then of course there is no problem. If you're suggesting that they should not bother with anime because their ratings are low -- and while I'm not saying you necessarily are, you would not be the first person to do so -- then that's where we get into trouble criticizing the motivation of someone keeping such a list, which does not directly reflect on whether the list accurately models their feelings. Presumably, an accurate model is the purpose of a valid list, and if we could not answer the validity of the list by questioning motivations, it is, to me, uninteresting (although you may be interested in the person instead of the list).
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Nov 30, 2020 2:36 PM

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Srijan_Sukumar said:
Adampk said:
if the mean score is less than 4, there are 3 possibility
1) They are fakers or haters (less score to every anime whether watched or not, except for there favorites in hopes of increasing rating or trying to look more experienced or something like that)

2) They genuinely dislike or losing interest in anime medium but has a persistent personality or most of the anime the watched are dropped anime ( Its better for them if they stop watching anime and go and use their time in something else)

3) Incorrect rating (to vent out its not upto high expectation ) or some use of some weird self made scale of rating

please note - second option is a really unlikely scenario. U might have to find people with persistent personality (i dont think many are like that).
Most people don't actually know the calculation of mean score when they are faking.
HAVING BORED BY ANIME OVER YEARS TO BE THE REASON FOR A MEAN SCORE LOWER THAN 4 IS ACTUALLY A EXTRIMELY UNLIKELY SCENARIO

eg - A person has watched 50 anime and has a mean score of 3. He is into anime ( because why else would he watch 50 anime). So atleast there should be 1 show which is he consider 10/10. So according to mean score calculation rest 49 anime he can only give upto 2.8 for each at an average. This guy can only reduce his rating to 1 for the other anime to give some of the better liked anime more than 3 rating. I do know with no of anime increased the no of rating he can give also increases. But still why would he increare the no of anime if returns are so low.
basically the gist of it is a person with less than 3 mean rating would only like a max of 3-4 anime out of 50 anime watched if provided other series are rated extremely low like 1. Would a person like that continue to watch 50 more anime if the results are same or lower in the next 50 anime also ? ( I mean to maintain 3 rating from increasing in 100 watched anime.)
Its a extremely unlikely scenario, I don't know how such people could bear to continuing watching anime ( 4-5 gems and 90-95 worst than trash series. Do such people exist?)


Another reason for a score below 4 could be that person watched a lot of hentai and rated it low... I saw an account like this
Personally, I've found my own list drift between a mean of 4-6 depending on how many shit anime I've watched, and sometimes I watch a lot of shit anime in a row due to recommendations. Of course, as the number of anime watched increases, the variance should decrease, or at least the weight of any new anime decreases, so the mean becomes more stable over time. However, my mean could have gone below a 4 if I hadn't found anime that I liked.

I would disagree that one must have at least a 10 in 50 anime. For the longest time, I didn't give 10s. The point of a list is to preserve ranking (i.e. ordering), and one could do this by comparing to a favorite, or deviating from the mean. In the case of the latter, if I give a 10, I'd be decreeing that there should be no significantly better anime within some confidence interval, and that's quite a hasty thing to say for someone who has only seen 50 anime.

Mathematically speaking, if someone has a mean less than 3.0 over 50 anime, then he has 11 anime that he could give a 10 with the rest being 1s. Not 3-4. That's more than 20%, and whether a 1 in 5 masterpiece ratio makes anime "worth it" is up to you.
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Nov 30, 2020 2:58 PM

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katsucats said:
In that limited sense of "fairness", being unfair is not a bad thing then. It's just a word choice used to make it sound like a bad thing. As for unequal or unbalanced, I suppose it's tautology to say that the weighting is unequal between the delta of different ratings. And as for biased, mathematically speaking, there is always a bias since the mean has to be greater than 0. If you mean biased as in subjective, the entire exercise of rating anime is biased.


Of course. I was using fairness in the sense that the deltas are unequal between above average anime and below average anime in one's view, not that it's a despicable move for them assign weightings in that manner.

katsucats said:
Questioning is fair; however, in your previous posts, you said having a skewed rating is unfair (i.e. uneven), and that being uneven "defeats much of the purpose of" rating anime. That seems to be a statement, not a question.

That seems curious, especially since you previously implied that a skewed list has no or limited purpose. If it's merely a question, then of course there is no problem. If you're suggesting that they should not bother with anime because their ratings are low -- and while I'm not saying you necessarily are, you would not be the first person to do so -- then that's where we get into trouble criticizing the motivation of someone keeping such a list, which does not directly reflect on whether the list accurately models their feelings. Presumably, an accurate model is the purpose of a valid list, and if we could not answer the validity of the list by questioning motivations, it is, to me, uninteresting (although you may be interested in the person instead of the list).


The reason for the "defeats much of the purpose of" remark is that it propagates towards the statistics that we can observe on the anime page. If everyone used a distribution where "below average" anime are shoved into the same one or two scores, it makes it more difficult for people to distinguish the "not to terribly bad" anime from the "this is absolute garbage" anime according to the mean score and consensus for that anime. Of course this isn't a real problem on the grand scheme because the common MAL user has a relatively normal distribution for their scores. A few people utilizing a different scaling system wouldn't affect much.

I'm not suggesting that they should not bother with anime at all. As you put it, I'm merely asking a question (out of curiosity).
 
Nov 30, 2020 3:08 PM

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katsucats said:
Srijan_Sukumar said:


Another reason for a score below 4 could be that person watched a lot of hentai and rated it low... I saw an account like this
Personally, I've found my own list drift between a mean of 4-6 depending on how many shit anime I've watched, and sometimes I watch a lot of shit anime in a row due to recommendations. Of course, as the number of anime watched increases, the variance should decrease, or at least the weight of any new anime decreases, so the mean becomes more stable over time. However, my mean could have gone below a 4 if I hadn't found anime that I liked.

I would disagree that one must have at least a 10 in 50 anime. For the longest time, I didn't give 10s. The point of a list is to preserve ranking (i.e. ordering), and one could do this by comparing to a favorite, or deviating from the mean. In the case of the latter, if I give a 10, I'd be decreeing that there should be no significantly better anime within some confidence interval, and that's quite a hasty thing to say for someone who has only seen 50 anime.

Mathematically speaking, if someone has a mean less than 3.0 over 50 anime, then he has 11 anime that he could give a 10 with the rest being 1s. Not 3-4. That's more than 20%, and whether a 1 in 5 masterpiece ratio makes anime "worth it" is up to you.


first of all the eg i gave was a hypothetical scenario and it was for normal people who don't do biased in rating ( for people whose reason are getting bored throughout years)
when i mentioned 3-4 anime out of 50, i was talking about a normal person who rates normally based on rating scale (who consider 6-10 rating as enjoyable and 1-5 as horrible). Do u thing a person who rates only 10 and 1 rating isnt using some sort of weird self made rating scale.

Modified by Adampk, Nov 30, 2020 3:33 PM
 
 
Nov 30, 2020 3:44 PM

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Opticflash said:
katsucats said:
In that limited sense of "fairness", being unfair is not a bad thing then. It's just a word choice used to make it sound like a bad thing. As for unequal or unbalanced, I suppose it's tautology to say that the weighting is unequal between the delta of different ratings. And as for biased, mathematically speaking, there is always a bias since the mean has to be greater than 0. If you mean biased as in subjective, the entire exercise of rating anime is biased.
Of course. I was using fairness in the sense that the deltas are unequal between above average anime and below average anime in one's view, not that it's a despicable move for them assign weightings in that manner.
Okay.

Opticflash said:
katsucats said:
Questioning is fair; however, in your previous posts, you said having a skewed rating is unfair (i.e. uneven), and that being uneven "defeats much of the purpose of" rating anime. That seems to be a statement, not a question.

That seems curious, especially since you previously implied that a skewed list has no or limited purpose. If it's merely a question, then of course there is no problem. If you're suggesting that they should not bother with anime because their ratings are low -- and while I'm not saying you necessarily are, you would not be the first person to do so -- then that's where we get into trouble criticizing the motivation of someone keeping such a list, which does not directly reflect on whether the list accurately models their feelings. Presumably, an accurate model is the purpose of a valid list, and if we could not answer the validity of the list by questioning motivations, it is, to me, uninteresting (although you may be interested in the person instead of the list).
The reason for the "defeats much of the purpose of" remark is that it propagates towards the statistics that we can observe on the anime page. If everyone used a distribution where "below average" anime are shoved into the same one or two scores, it makes it more difficult for people to distinguish the "not to terribly bad" anime from the "this is absolute garbage" anime according to the mean score and consensus for that anime. Of course this isn't a real problem on the grand scheme because the common MAL user has a relatively normal distribution for their scores. A few people utilizing a different scaling system wouldn't affect much.
As you said, this conflates the individual with the population. The point of the site rank is to reflect a mean of the population, and of course that already accounts for the noise or variance. If everyone miraculously rated the same way, regardless of the system, then the site rank would ironically make more sense than it does now, since there would be less noise. The formula could then be changed to reflect this reality, for example exponentiating the raw scores to retrieve the linear scores at a lower resolution, although that doesn't matter since the average over a large number of users takes back much of the resolution it loses.

This would be a rather simple process...


Regardless, defeating the purpose of the site rank is not defeating the purpose of the list, and I would say that the listing feature is the priority, whereas the site rank is just an auxiliary feature that enhances the list experience. It doesn't matter at all that the site rank is compromised.

Opticflash said:
I'm not suggesting that they should not bother with anime at all. As you put it, I'm merely asking a question (out of curiosity).
Okay. Thanks for the clarification.
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Nov 30, 2020 4:02 PM

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Adampk said:
katsucats said:
Personally, I've found my own list drift between a mean of 4-6 depending on how many shit anime I've watched, and sometimes I watch a lot of shit anime in a row due to recommendations. Of course, as the number of anime watched increases, the variance should decrease, or at least the weight of any new anime decreases, so the mean becomes more stable over time. However, my mean could have gone below a 4 if I hadn't found anime that I liked.

I would disagree that one must have at least a 10 in 50 anime. For the longest time, I didn't give 10s. The point of a list is to preserve ranking (i.e. ordering), and one could do this by comparing to a favorite, or deviating from the mean. In the case of the latter, if I give a 10, I'd be decreeing that there should be no significantly better anime within some confidence interval, and that's quite a hasty thing to say for someone who has only seen 50 anime.

Mathematically speaking, if someone has a mean less than 3.0 over 50 anime, then he has 11 anime that he could give a 10 with the rest being 1s. Not 3-4. That's more than 20%, and whether a 1 in 5 masterpiece ratio makes anime "worth it" is up to you.


first of all the eg i gave was a hypothetical scenario and it was for normal people who don't do biased in rating ( for people whose reason are getting bored throughout years)
when i mentioned 3-4 anime out of 50, i was talking about a normal person who rates normally based on rating scale (who consider 6-10 rating as enjoyable and 1-5 as horrible). Do u thing a person who rates only 10 and 1 rating isnt using some sort of weird self made rating scale.

That's rather dubious, since giving you benefit of the doubt, keep in mind that a mean of 3 does not mean a median of 3 or even a mode of 3. In other words, it doesn't mean that there are an equal amount of anime above or below 3, nor does it even mean that 3 is the most popular rating. In fact, the normal distribution is assumed to be the underlying distribution if the number of samples approach infinite. It does not mean anyone will rate with bins that fall onto the PDF. Furthermore, it highly depends on the variance even if it does. Consider that under standard normal, 95% falls within +/-2, and nobody really rates everything between 3 and 7 either.

However, you did say
Adampk said:
the gist of it is a person with less than 3 mean rating would only like a max of 3-4 anime out of 50 anime watched if provided other series are rated extremely low like 1
Adampk said:
Its a extremely unlikely scenario, I don't know how such people could bear to continuing watching anime ( 4-5 gems and 90-95 worst than trash series. Do such people exist?)
So it does appear you are talking about the extreme case, since it would be odd to even consider that only anime rated 10/10 are anime a person "likes". I would assume that's any anime rated over 5/10 or perhaps 6/10.
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Dec 1, 2020 12:44 AM
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Is 4 really that low, considering 5 is somewhat of a medium out of a total score of 10? They are not giving out 1s, so that's saying something.

I think the intentional or unintentional point they are trying to make, assuming they are not being edgy, is that there are a lot of mediocre anime out there. They are often decently produced, but easily forgettable. You don't want to say it's complete garbage, but only good for killing time, and to add a notch to your belt.

Let's be real here, once you past a certain point of watching anime, reading manga/novels, you can't seem to recall anything worthy of note at the drop of a hat, and sometimes the plots of several stories seem to mash together when you try to recall anything specific. Very few stories actually stand out unless it's realy good, or there's some personal/nostalgia value.



 
Dec 1, 2020 12:53 AM
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I'm not among them.

"Let's appreciate Life!"
 
Dec 1, 2020 2:06 PM

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Lots of people want to show BDE on MAL so they never drop awful shows that they’ve started and will rate them 1s or other low scores. Others have just really “high standards” and their only 10/10 show will be LoGH while everything else is a 7 and below.

I’m actually more interested in people that have completed hundreds of anime with a mean score above 8 especially if they watch seasonal anime. To me it just shows low standards because usually the more anime you watch the faster it becomes tiresome to watch generic isekai, shounen, and other stories with repetitive tropes and you eventually rate them more harshly.

Personally I usually dont bother watching most airing seasonal anime anymore because I cant see myself rating most of them higher than 4s upon completion so I dont even give them a shot or a 3 episode rule. Which is what I used to do when I started watching anime and is the main reason why my mean score is just under 7. If I was to nitpick the best of the best and have less anime completed my mean score would be way higher.
 
 
Dec 1, 2020 6:20 PM
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chiraxxz said:
I believe that if a person has an average rating less than 7 then they don't like many animes either because they have watched too many or they just like a few. In any case, if your average rating is less than 7 then that means you only like a few animes so there is no point in watching a ton of them, just stick to the mainstream ones.

Seriously now? While I also question means under like 5, 4.70 or even lower ... wow, 7 as a mean is actually quite high, if you have already seen a fair amount of anime. You also don't have to enjoy and like almost everything. So no, I don't only enjoy only a few anime, but the medium as a whole is my favorite. It still doesn't mean that I have to enjoy everything.
Sticking to the mainstream does help even less. For example the "big shounen"-mainstream stuff is written for primarily teenage boys, which I'm not you can see lol I love some of them a lot (mostly not the really mainstream ones tho), but most of these series aren't really for me and they are often really annoying to me.
 
Dec 1, 2020 8:58 PM

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chiraxxz said:
I believe that if a person has an average rating less than 7 then they don't like many animes either because they have watched too many or they just like a few. In any case, if your average rating is less than 7 then that means you only like a few animes so there is no point in watching a ton of them, just stick to the mainstream ones.


The opposite is true. If you have specific tastes then you have to put in a lot of effort to find shows you will like. You can't just expect to watch Re Zero, Demon Slayer, MHA etc and be blown away.
Modified by Haunt-bot, Dec 1, 2020 9:51 PM
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Dec 1, 2020 9:47 PM

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Haunt-bot said:
chiraxxz said:
I believe that if a person has an average rating less than 7 then they don't like many animes either because they have watched too many or they just like a few. In any case, if your average rating is less than 7 then that means you only like a few animes so there is no point in watching a ton of them, just stick to the mainstream ones.


The opposite is true. If you have specific tastes then yuo have to put in a lot of effort to find shows you will like. You can't just expect to watch Re Zero, Demon Slayer, MHA etc and be blown away.
I agree with this on some level. Let me take it further and say that a person with a mean above a 7 probably dropped anime on the first criticism, has a horrible completion rate, didn't care enough to explore different genres or works in the medium, didn't care enough about the community to watch things that are being discussed, didn't care enough about the minute details between different anime that he did like to spread out the ratings -- in short, he hates anime.

Okay, I'm half kidding. But only half.
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Dec 1, 2020 9:57 PM
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I don't really give a shit about my ratings/listing in general, so with that in mind I'm tempted to just flip everything to 1 because I think it'd piss people like OP off

 
Dec 1, 2020 10:00 PM

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Manaban said:
I don't really give a shit about my ratings/listing in general, so with that in mind I'm tempted to just flip everything to 1 because I think it'd piss people like OP off


Do it. Do iiiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttttttt.
 
Dec 1, 2020 10:01 PM
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Opticflash said:
Manaban said:
I don't really give a shit about my ratings/listing in general, so with that in mind I'm tempted to just flip everything to 1 because I think it'd piss people like OP off


Do it. Do iiiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttttttt.

Well now I'm not gonna if you're gonna be like that about it >:(

 
Dec 2, 2020 9:48 AM
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katsucats said:
Haunt-bot said:


The opposite is true. If you have specific tastes then yuo have to put in a lot of effort to find shows you will like. You can't just expect to watch Re Zero, Demon Slayer, MHA etc and be blown away.
I agree with this on some level. Let me take it further and say that a person with a mean above a 7 probably dropped anime on the first criticism, has a horrible completion rate, didn't care enough to explore different genres or works in the medium, didn't care enough about the community to watch things that are being discussed, didn't care enough about the minute details between different anime that he did like to spread out the ratings -- in short, he hates anime.

Okay, I'm half kidding. But only half.

I mean, on half joking, it's more likely to not care about anime as a medium, if you actually care about the community and what's in trend there, too much. These people might use anime more as a springboard to find a community to fit in. I often tried to watch stuff that was / is discussed heavily in the overall community and really didn't like 80 % of it tbh...
Modified by _Maneki-Neko_, Dec 2, 2020 10:09 AM
 
Dec 2, 2020 9:54 AM

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High standards demand.‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎
 
Dec 5, 2020 12:37 AM

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Or both. But honestly it's just that most anime are garbage though
 
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