| I'm not sure what I'm looking for posting this. I guess I'm just interested to hear other people's thoughts on the matter because I am way too invested in Riko, Reg and Nanachi's journey and their characters at this point and I have to sound off about Bondrewd. I just finished the movie and man, I was fucking SHAKING I was that angry at that piece of shit. Anyone that thinks Bondrewd has even the slightest hint of compassion or is any way redeemable needs their fucking head examined. Coldly, calculatedly fostering a child's love only because he needs that love to be "complete" before he can render her down into organs and use that love to replicate the bestowal of the Blessing for himself, just so he can dive further into the Abyss? And to do that ON TOP of what he already did to Mitty, Nanachi and all the other kids! This is holocaust levels of atrocity! Fuck that guy. Seriously. They should have blew up the Zoaholic and incinerated the entire host of Umbra hands methodically until only ash remained. I get that by being defeated he has "given up" on the Abyss and sees his defeat as a "passing of the torch", hence why he lets Riko & Co. proceed. I further get that Prushka's final moments were consumed with feeling for Riko & Co and her last wish was for reconciliation and a cease to the hostility. I further get that the lift to the 6th layer, the lab, the processing centre, etc, were all destroyed by Reg's blast. I even further get that if the 3 of them had tried to take him and all the Umbra hands down they might have failed and died. I mean they were pretty played out just taking down Bondrewd's main body. But...man, even knowing all that, it just feels bad that this absolute scab has escaped righteous justice. I know Made in Abyss isn't strictly about evil being punished. It's intentionally morally grey. It's about longing, desire, adventure, the call of the unknown and the relative value of life depending on who's looking at it but man...it still hurts. Not the best villain (i.e. very few people could honestly say they sympathise with his goals, unless you're a fucking psychopath) but certainly the most detestable villain I've come across in a long time. |
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| Didn't the manga author say he drew inspiration from Dark Souls? And main moral of that is how you cant really change shit but need to move forward nevertheless . So Bondrewd remaining alive and the MC's moving past that is pretty nice way to end this arc. I liked it and it made sense. |
| Hi! I'm so glad someone replied in such a way. Thanks very much philderr! I'm not quite as angry as I was when I posted this (well, I am, but I've had some days to let it settle) and you make some good points I'd like to reply to. philderr said: First, Bondrewd is most likely a psychopath. A sociopath knows what they are doing is morally/ethically wrong, to a psychopath, it all makes sense. Riko said that spreading out your consciousnesses with the Zaoholic can cause a user to going insane, and he has definitively done that. Bondrewd's methods probably make sense in his own warped way. That doesn't excuse anything, but sets the table. I have no doubt that the Zoaholic played it's part. Who knows how much is lost every time he split his consciousness? If all that remains are basic emotions (which could lead to his twisted form of love) and all consuming passions (from what I understand he was always a scientist, pushing the envelope by researching and developing new methods for exploring the Abyss or figuring out the uses for relics) then his actions become explainable if not condonable. philderr said: Purpose, purpose, purpose...that thought rattled around in my head. Then I started thinking. Did Bondrewd orchestrate this from early on? Did he condition Prushka to be Riko's white whistle? Bondrewd knew that a white whistle was needed to descend, a white whistle could only be used by the original owner, a white whistle needs to be created from a person that has a firm resolve to sacrifice everything for the intended user, and that Riko is not the original owner of her white whistle. Bondrewd also knew that Prushka's psyche had the ability to come back from a dark place (unlike Mitty), which may be evident as her thoughts as a pile of organs in a box as a cartridge. Would it be that her strong feelings for her "father" and want to go exploring with Riko (who Bondrewd urged her get to know) caused her to be created into a stone of reverberation? Who knows, but I do know that things usually don't happen by coincidence in this anime. Did Bondrewd perform a necessary evil by providing Riko with her white whistle? Is that a decision Riko could have made herself? This is a very interesting point and I hadn't considered it until you said it. I don't agree with it, though. I genuinely think his character took the view that the "sacrifice" (clearly murder, but Hitler thought he was saving the world too) of a few kids would be worth it if it let him uncover the mystery of the Abyss, and that the love he gave was expertly feigned (in the same way a mentally ill mother will love her child despite fabricating or inducing an illness in that child to garner the sympathy she desires) but ultimately fake. There might be something in the "white whistle" theory you've got there, but if he did consider setting things up like that, it was only as a "plan B" if he failed to acquire the Blessing or Riko & Co. defeated him. I still believe everything he did was ultimately for the selfish pursuit of knowledge and progress. philderr said: If he just needed to obtain the "Blessing", he could have done that through Prushka and himself and not needed to wait for Riko and company to show up at all. I think it's said that he needed to "die" to "complete" Prushka's love (afterall, grief be the mirror of love) which is why he led the Umbra hands into the monster nest and then let Riko & Co. take him down in his basic body. Only after that was Prushka "complete" enough to have the double curse forced on her, and leave the Blessing open to Bondrewd. philderr said: Does he need to live out his aspirations through others (thus explaining why he's been waiting for them)? Ultimately, I think this is the rationale for why he still lives and why he let Riko & Co. proceed without further hostility. With his "main body" which received the Blessing dead, the ambiguity over whether he could even use his own white whistle anymore (although, it was created from his own original body, so I think he probably could still use it), his lab destroyed and Prushka reincarnated as Riko's whistle, he figures it's time to pass the torch. I like to think that there was just enough sanity left in him to realise that what he had been doing was abominable and that if 3 kids, pure of heart, could make it this far then maybe he was wrong all along. philderr said: Third, Prushka and Bondrewd get to see dawn together on the surface with Prushka ok and Bondrewd dying due to being brought up from the lower layers. That would be the ultimate poetic justice ending. That would be justice indeed, but I was thinking I'd like to see him sacrifice himself to save Riko & Co. later on. Be that by going down to help them or doing something to save them on their return journey (if there is one). I have a suspicion that we'v seen the last of Bondrewed though. The rite of passage is done and the deeper levels await our treasured adeventures. Anyway man, I'm definitely going to watch it again (but I'll wait a while so I can watch the full thing, S1 > Movie) when I feel like I can be bothered to upset myself again, lol. There's a few parts that turn on the waterworks for me even though I know what's happening already. Thanks again for your great reply, dude. This is the first sensible discussion of an anime I've actually had on these boards. Hope to hear back if you have any more thoughts! |
CallMeHootOct 9, 2020 2:21 AM
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CallMeHoot said: I'm not sure what I'm looking for posting this. I guess I'm just interested to hear other people's thoughts on the matter because I am way too invested in Riko, Reg and Nanachi's journey and their characters at this point and I have to sound off about Bondrewd. I just finished the movie and man, I was fucking SHAKING I was that angry at that piece of shit. Anyone that thinks Bondrewd has even the slightest hint of compassion or is any way redeemable needs their fucking head examined. Coldly, calculatedly fostering a child's love only because he needs that love to be "complete" before he can render her down into organs and use that love to replicate the bestowal of the Blessing for himself, just so he can dive further into the Abyss? And to do that ON TOP of what he already did to Mitty, Nanachi and all the other kids! This is holocaust levels of atrocity! Fuck that guy. Seriously. They should have blew up the Zoaholic and incinerated the entire host of Umbra hands methodically until only ash remained. I get that by being defeated he has "given up" on the Abyss and sees his defeat as a "passing of the torch", hence why he lets Riko & Co. proceed. I further get that Prushka's final moments were consumed with feeling for Riko & Co and her last wish was for reconciliation and a cease to the hostility. I further get that the lift to the 6th layer, the lab, the processing centre, etc, were all destroyed by Reg's blast. I even further get that if the 3 of them had tried to take him and all the Umbra hands down they might have failed and died. I mean they were pretty played out just taking down Bondrewd's main body. But...man, even knowing all that, it just feels bad that this absolute scab has escaped righteous justice. I know Made in Abyss isn't strictly about evil being punished. It's intentionally morally grey. It's about longing, desire, adventure, the call of the unknown and the relative value of life depending on who's looking at it but man...it still hurts. Not the best villain (i.e. very few people could honestly say they sympathise with his goals, unless you're a fucking psychopath) but certainly the most detestable villain I've come across in a long time. Well I watched this movie and I am very much upset so much that I have this movie a well bad rating, he didn't die after all that bull shit of making kids suffer and turning them into disgusting things nah man the mangaka better do something later down in the in story that will make me feel like oh so he gets what he deserves cuz now I have a nasty taste in my mouth due to this movie |
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| Completely agreed. Yes, it was supposed to be science vs humanism theme, but this show overdid it with shock content so I can't stay in buddha mode and say - yeah, he had his own justified goals. SERIOUSLY. FUCK THIS GUY. |
| Sure he did some pretty fucked up things, but it was in the name of scientific progress and understanding of the Abyss with the ultimate goal of making it to the "bottom" by any means necessary. Sure the abyss may have twisted his mind and I don't agree with his methods, but in a general sense his goal was the same as theirs, hence why he let them pass through once they bested him. I felt like Bondrewd was a rather complex villain. It would've been cheesy if he was kind of reveling in the things he was doing, but it definitely was more of fascination and intrigue from a scientific standpoint and a dedication to do whatever it takes to reach his goal, no matter how morally reprehensible. In a way, they are carrying on his legacy, he's just the one that did the dirty work. I'm not rooting for him or anything, in fact I somewhat agree that he's a pretty twisted person, but honestly they wouldn't have made it if he didn't do what he did. That made it even more impactful for me. One other thing, I found it interesting how Bondrewd kind of mirrored real-life scientists that did extremely inhumane things in the name of science, and how science wouldn't be nearly as far along as it is today without their discoveries. |
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Desireless said: It was a huge disappointment that they didn't kill him completely in the end, that they didn't destroy his zoaholic. I understand mangas that try to be "gray" about stuff, and not purely portray them as black/white, I really do. In fact, I prefer them. However, there is a line that cannot be crossed. And Bondrewd crossed it repeatedly, there is no "gray area" in what he did, and therefore, it came across as very forced that the author was trying to make this into a "gray" area by them not killing him completely and moving on. You simply cannot show one committing such horrendous acts, and then suddenly play it off like nothing. Lets not kid ourselves here, these kids have killed far less "evil" things so far in the story, whether it be for self protection or otherwise, and now suddenly they can't kill this vile creature? I have read some people arguing that he now most likely has "given up his mission", but seriously? How can the protagonists know for sure that he has, what if he were to take in a child and use them like he did with nanachi and prushka? How are they fine taking such a risk? What about Bondrewd warrented such understanding that they could let hime live? I felt disgusted. Has he been such a belivable and honest guy up until now that they suddenly think he has changed his ways and won't commit such atrocities anymore? Seems more like they think it is fine if he does, as long as they don't find out about them. And apparently, if he does, they'll just cry a little over the poor little thing and move on!! Ridiculous! Obviously I feel the same as you (I posted this thread afterall!) but after I've had a while to think about it, I'm starting to feel like the kids (Riko & Co.) had no choice really. Taking down Bondrewd once almost got them all killed, and even though his "combat" model was gone, it would still have been an almost impossible task to then go on to kill him again, then all the Umbra hands, then destroy the base. I mean they don't have infinite resources or time, afterall. I think there's supposed to be a sense of urgency there, i.e. more time spent fucking around = more chance Liza will be gone by the time they get to her. I don't think it was played off as nothing, though. He original self is gone, used to create his White Whistle which turned out to be useless (as only the original owner can use it - SPOILER), at least as far I'm aware. His "combat" clone is destroyed and his ability to penetrate the sixth layer is gone. As much of a piece of shit as he is, he's still and always was a scientist. If he genuinely believes that there's no point in continuing (which was the vibe I got from the ending) and that the mystery of unraveling the Abyss has been passed on to Riko & Co. then he's no longer a threat. I mean, he should still die a horrific, horrific death. There's a reason that the Soviets who liberated Auschwitz made the nazi's they captured dig their own graves before they shot them. There's a level of abomination that simply CANNOT be tolerated by any right thinking human being and what Bondrewd did meets that criteria and then some. That said, my main point (sorry for rambling, dude) stands I think. Riko & Co. are only kids, at the end of the day. And I think a "deal" with Bondrewd was the absolute best they could do, given the struggle they had defeating him once. |
CallMeHootNov 22, 2020 3:02 AM
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floofme said: CallMeHoot said: I mean, he should still die a horrific, horrific death. There's a reason that the Soviets who liberated Auschwitz made the nazi's they captured dig their own graves before they shot them. There's a level of abomination that simply CANNOT be tolerated by any right thinking human being and what Bondrewd did meets that criteria and then some. Meanwhile, USA let Shiro Ishii and other nazi scientists live happily after. Morality is relatable even in real world. But in the world of fiction, I care only about quality of writing and overall entertainment. Author put a lot of effort into Bondrewd's character, why would he destroy something that he created with lots of dedication? Bondrewd is charismatic, deep, unique villain unlike low-effort plot devices Mitty and Prushka that has no value as characters. Hell, I wouldn't mind an ending where Bondrewd kills Reg and Riko, they are worthless trash too. Well, you're entitled to your opinion, however incorrect it may be. There's nothing "deep" or "charismatic" about Bondrewd. He is a carbon copy "mad scientist" archtype. His morally repugnant actions are the only compelling feature about him. In any event, clearly we are diametrically opposed in our viewpoints rendering debate impossible. I won't engage with you further. EDIT:- "Morality is relative..." - fixed it for you. |
CallMeHootNov 22, 2020 3:36 AM
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Paulotronator said: It is common knowledge that these children aren't loved by anyone, nor anyone cares if they suddenly drop dead. By the act of the processing, Bondrewd, even if it was via a cruel act, gave some purpose to their existence. Isn't that what every human yearns for once he seriously walks down the path of reflecting about the world, a purpose? Who is Bondrewd to judge the value of a life? Would these orphan children be unloved their entire lives? No. As Nanachi and Mitty proved. Having a "belief", a "purpose" or doing something in the name of "progress" doesn't automatically give someone a free pass. Hitler genuinely believed he was making the world a better place by exterminating Jewish people. There is literally NO justification for the abhorrent actions he took. The situations where a human being can make a value judgement on the worth of another's life are incredibly small and the "Bondrewd situation" definitely doesn't cut it. Paulotronator said: Can we really blame him for making the actions essential for that necessary evil to be done? Yes. The abyss is a mystery. Who knows if his actions even WERE necessary? Honestly, I struggle to understand the train of thought that paints Bondrewd as this tragic figure who is only trying to do the best he can, etc, etc. It's garbage. He's cold. He's calculated. He's manipulative. He's mad. I could go point by point but I gotta to work. Thanks for your reply, but needless to say I disagree with just about everything you've said (which is fine, we're all adults here :P). |
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| I'd say that Bondrewd is a perfect example of how to do a villain. And if they had killed him and destroyed the Zoaholic then that would've been the most predictable and boring way possible to end the movie. This is why I watch Made in Abyss and not another anime. Because they're not afraid to do things like this. This ending is very bittersweet, which is very in-line with what Made in Abyss is all about. Bondrewd is pretty much the epitome of evil in this series. But he's not needlessly so. He's not just comically evil for the sake of being evil. He actually has quite a bit of depth. What I liked most about his character is the less focused things. Like for instance how he remembered all the names of people he had sacrificed, he even remembered details about them. Like how one wanted to be a princess. From what was portrayed, it very much felt like he genuinely cared about the children. But he still wanted to achieve his goals. He even went as far as to sacrifice himself for the white whistle as opposed to sacrificing another. And he would've kept doing it had it actually worked. He wanted Nanachi to work for him, but he never once actually forced her to work for him. You could argue that he manipulated her to do so. But any other villain would've just forced her with violence. He asks her to join him, and he is accepting if she were to refuse. Even going as far as letting her roam around free. He does the horrible things to children because he doesn't believe there to be another way. As mentioned earlier, if possible, he would've sacrificed himself instead. Also his departing words to Nanachi was great. Because I think he genuinely wants them to continue forward. They are living out his ambitions for him. Now none of this of course justifies what he did to all those children. But these are the reasons I can't hate him as a character. Because his writing is just so interesting. I believe that if you truly think everything about him is just evil then it seems like you missed a big part of his characterization in the series. He is evil yes, but he's not JUST evil. |
| Subarashii |
| There's an argument I always feel I need to make when I hear people say that he needed to be killed. Bondrewd is not evil, he is insane. An evil character knows an action is wrong and does it anyway because they want to do bad things. Bondrewd no longer has the capacity to understand morality. He does these things not because they are right or wrong, but simply because he sees it as the way forward. There is no justice or retribution for that, so at this point killing the remaining copies just has no purpose. The ones that remain are no longer capable of bringing about meaningful change, so trying to kill them all would just bring more hardships to our adventurers. |
Paulotronator said: Taking into accound Bondrewd is also called "the Novel", would it be too far fetched to suggest he was the one to discover how to make the White Whistles? The umbra hand are the ones who call him Bondrewd the Novel. Basically they just mean the one with the mask. They are all Bondrewd, but they all consider that one to be The Bondrewd |
| Also, the issue with him using his own white whistle isn't because of the rule about who owns it. The original Bondrewd sacrificed himself to make that whistle for his clones, it is theirs. The problem is that the relics don't view the copies as living beings anymore, and don't respond to them. This is also why they didn't have a reason to destroy Zoaholic, as it was now useless to them |
CallMeHoot said: I'm not sure what I'm looking for posting this. I guess I'm just interested to hear other people's thoughts on the matter because I am way too invested in Riko, Reg and Nanachi's journey and their characters at this point and I have to sound off about Bondrewd. I just finished the movie and man, I was fucking SHAKING I was that angry at that piece of shit. Anyone that thinks Bondrewd has even the slightest hint of compassion or is any way redeemable needs their fucking head examined. Coldly, calculatedly fostering a child's love only because he needs that love to be "complete" before he can render her down into organs and use that love to replicate the bestowal of the Blessing for himself, just so he can dive further into the Abyss? And to do that ON TOP of what he already did to Mitty, Nanachi and all the other kids! This is holocaust levels of atrocity! Fuck that guy. Seriously. They should have blew up the Zoaholic and incinerated the entire host of Umbra hands methodically until only ash remained. I get that by being defeated he has "given up" on the Abyss and sees his defeat as a "passing of the torch", hence why he lets Riko & Co. proceed. I further get that Prushka's final moments were consumed with feeling for Riko & Co and her last wish was for reconciliation and a cease to the hostility. I further get that the lift to the 6th layer, the lab, the processing centre, etc, were all destroyed by Reg's blast. I even further get that if the 3 of them had tried to take him and all the Umbra hands down they might have failed and died. I mean they were pretty played out just taking down Bondrewd's main body. But...man, even knowing all that, it just feels bad that this absolute scab has escaped righteous justice. I know Made in Abyss isn't strictly about evil being punished. It's intentionally morally grey. It's about longing, desire, adventure, the call of the unknown and the relative value of life depending on who's looking at it but man...it still hurts. Not the best villain (i.e. very few people could honestly say they sympathise with his goals, unless you're a fucking psychopath) but certainly the most detestable villain I've come across in a long time. He reminds me of people like Dr Mengele, and Shiro Ishii. They committed themselves to the pursuit of knowledge and achievement to the point of committing unspeakable evils. They also got away with it because the world needed to move on. Anyway, I think thats kinda the point. Its supposed to be bittersweet and a contrast. Both Riko and Bonedred want to explore and see new things... and that manifests in them differently. The irony is that it was Bonedreds desire to see novelty that gave Riko her white whistle and a truce with Bonedrewd. They literally only made peace because Bonedrewd wants to see what they're gonna do. Paulotronator said: Hum. Contraty to the popular feeling, I must say I absolutely loved Bondrewd. It was natural for it to happen, considering I have a very strong liking for characters like him (v.g Paul von Oberstein or Rossiu Adai), who aren't afraid to push a situation over the limits or even go beyond any moral barrier in order to achieve a greater good. Indeed, all of these three characters use very questionable means to reach their ends, but after a calm and reflexive analysis of the situation one can fin there was a way for them to act that could have achieved the same results as efficiently as it did (or it was intended to do). I do believe characters like them are truly the embodiment of the process of redemption. As it was noted by Schopenhauer and the Bible, there cannot be triumph without fight nor there can be salvation without passion. In other words, there cannot be redemption without sacrifice, salvation without expiation. Indeed, Bondrewd's actions are unspeakably atrocious. Even so, were those actions as bad as they seemed to be? It is said to us that Bondrewd used orphans/kids of the streets in order to make his cartridges. It is common knowledge that these children aren't loved by anyone, nor anyone cares if they suddenly drop dead. By the act of the processing, Bondrewd, even if it was via a cruel act, gave some purpose to their existence. Isn't that what every human yearns for once he seriously walks down the path of reflecting about the world, a purpose? The process of making cartridges can be called by some a process that undermines their dignity, but I say, taking into account the necessity of sacrifice for redemption, that their transubstantiation actually dignifies themselves, by serving for the most noble purpose that is the search for knowledge. Judging by the scenes showed to us of the infancy of Prushka, I do not really think he coldly and calculatedly fostered her love for him. Indeed, it all was ultimately another step in his pland, but then what good was there in memorizing the names of all the children if he didn't foster any sentiment towards them as well, together with chaining the stairs from where Prushka fell and almost died? It can be said it was done to protect a very valuable asset, but still it can't be done without caring for her at least a bit, since he only needed her innards anyway. We are told a fair amount of times that Bondrewd does everything calculatedly. Knowing that the possession of a White Whistle is indispensable in order to descend to the Sixth Layer, the sacrificing of Prushka was inevitable. By nurturing Prushka Bondrewd transformed the seemingly good for nothing offspring of an unnamed Umbra Hand into a very valuable relic, which made it possible for Riko to continue her adventure. We are also told that a White Whistle can only be made out of a human being. Taking into accound Bondrewd is also called "the Novel", would it be too far fetched to suggest he was the one to discover how to make the White Whistles? We can only imagine the amount of work that was put into the reaserch, let alone the count of bodies used in it. Can we really blame him for making the actions essential for that necessary evil to be done? After all, sooner or later Riko would have been pushed to make that decision too. As the Blessing and Reg's power aren't unlimited, there was no other way to continue the journey. To end this, let's assume Bondrewd did just shamelessly nurture Prushka into an instrument. But was it that really bad for Prushka? As I said earlier, she was destined to be discarded after her birth, but Bondrewd gave her a comfortable life, love (even if it was hollow) and most importantly, hope. Prushka's love for Bondrewd was considerable, even bordering on worship or idolatry. Even if Bondrewd's love for Prushka was no more than a farce, Prushka's love for Bondrewd was pure. I wouldn't call that instrumentalization as much as sublimation. Just as there can be no breakthroughs without sacrifices, there can be no dawn without darkness. Oberstein was committed the greater good, and was not obsessed with novelty to the point of following in the footsteps of Unit 731. Oberstein is the embodiment of the ideal of realpolitik, while Bonedrewd is all about knowledge for knowledge's sake to an evil extreme. |
| Am I the only one who thinks Bondrewed sincerely loves/loved his children, but due to the way the abyss warps someone's own reality he loves them in an incredibly warped way? These images show that he literally remembers the children's names and their dreams. Now I am not saying Bondrewed is redeemable. He is literally evil, but his complexity stems from his love being completely twisted. He genuinely loves his children including Nanachi, but the way he shows that love is inherently evil even when he doesn't even understand it is evil. He also wouldn't be able to transform when going up the abyss if he didn't love his children either. |
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tarrasques said: Calal-Chan said: Am I the only one who thinks Bondrewed sincerely loves/loved his children, but due to the way the abyss warps someone's own reality he loves them in an incredibly warped way? These images show that he literally remembers the children's names and their dreams. Now I am not saying Bondrewed is redeemable. He is literally evil, but his complexity stems from his love being completely twisted. He genuinely loves his children including Nanachi, but the way he shows that love is inherently evil even when he doesn't even understand it is evil. He also wouldn't be able to transform when going up the abyss if he didn't love his children either. [/spoiler] It's literally said by an author that Bondrewd loves all his kids, you can check his interviews. Western people are just dumb and think with cliches that's why there are so many cries about Bondrewd, unlike Japanese fandom where he is incredibly popular. Nice to see that I understood what the author was doing with his character. I felt it was all pretty reasonable because the reason Nanchi transformed was because of her love for Mitty and Mitty's love for her. That was why I thought that in order for Bondrewed to be able to transform he would need to have that same kind of similar bond. It honestly complicates his character a lot because from his viewpoint and even the world's viewpoint what he is doing isn't nearly as wrong as it would be in our world. Made in Abyss' laws don't follow the laws of our world. It makes him incredibly complex when on the surface he seems evil just to be evil. When he is in fact not evil just for evil's sake. Like in his last moments in the film when he raises his hand towards Nanachi and she pushes it away. It was clearly a weird version of love. His own version even when warped. |
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Calal-Chan said: It honestly complicates his character a lot because from his viewpoint and even the world's viewpoint what he is doing isn't nearly as wrong as it would be in our world. Made in Abyss' laws don't follow the laws of our world. I'm not so sure that our moral condemnation of Bondrewd is due to our inherent values being all that different from people in that world. Rather, it's just that as objective viewers, we're privy to information and facts that the average person in that world is not, and similarly, we can draw more objective moral lines in the sand since we're immune from that world's cultural and societal influences. I think that even in the Made In Abyss world, Bondewd's experiments, if seen first-hand, would most likely be considered abhorrent by the majority of people. For example, even one of Bondrewd's henchmen questioned the morality of sacrificing the orphans back in the final episode of season one, and Ouzen, who acts in morally ambiguous ways at times herself, seems to regard him with at best, a respectful disgust. Those opinions, plus the viewpoint of the three main characters (that his actions are unforgivable) probably give us a good baseline about morality in this world. Consequently, I assume that those in the upper world would probably be horrified if they were forced to actually see the specifics of what's taking place in those experiments. At the same time, in the upper world, nobody seems to notice or care that hundreds of orphans and poor people have disappeared. This probably reflects very skewed class dynamics, where those without a proper place in society, in terms of economics or family, are seen as disposable. We also know, for example, that there is toxic pollution in the slums of the upper world, further reflecting an unfair, stratified society. Bondrewd himself seems to share this idea, since he remarks at one point that nobody will miss the victims of the experiments. The luckiest orphans, in the end, are forced to be cave raiders, an extremely dangerous job that while prestigious, mainly benefits society at large, at the risk of the raider's safety. The unlucky ones, well, we already know. Assuming that the higher ranking cave raiders have at least some idea of what's going on at the bottom of the fifth layer, they're probably able to compartmentalize the morality of the experiments in their heads due to not actually seeing them first hand (which is only a step removed from those in the upper world who see the orphans disappear and don't really question it). We can use Ouzen's disgusted acceptance of Bondrewd as a baseline for this assumption, because if even she thinks it's fucked up, can you imagine what the average raider would think? In any case, there's a sort of moral abstraction that allows these experiments to go on in the name of progress, since the victims are unknown, have little value to society, and their grim fates are unseen. In other words, it's not that the actions are morally acceptable, it's that they're easy to turn a blind eye to. This dynamic, in my view, mirrors very closely what happens in our world, where many of the riches of civilization are built on the suffering of others, from slaves, to overworked employees, to pollution, to war casualties, to slaughtered animals, and the majority of people use moral abstraction to ignore or compartmentalize the sacrifices that they all benefit from. The white whistles seem to embody this type of sacrifice, represented by the fact that they can only achieve their status by having a loved one willingly die for them. Along those lines, each white whistle that we know of has made other sacrifices in the name of progress, Ouzen taking all those wedges into her body and separating herself from the normal world, and Lyza first having to travel into the abyss while pregnant, and then forgoing the raising of her daughter in order to see the netherworld (which subsequently led to new discoveries about the abyss). They all carry these burdens so that society at large doesn't have to. Bondrewd, then, is the epitome of this, as someone who has sacrificed even his own humanity in the name of progress. The twisted form of love he feels towards his experiment subjects probably represents this better than anything. Rather than being indifferent, he accepts the kids' humanity and feels affection for them, and then throws their lives away anyway without batting an eye. To respond to the initial topic, killing Bondrewd would definitely be cathartic for many viewers because it would check that box of "good beats evil". However, it wouldn't really make sense considering this theme of sacrifice. His atrocities, after all, are the only thing allowing Riko and co. to continue their adventure. By proxy, then, Riko is benefitting from those atrocities, and considering that, you can't really say that her hands are clean. She, like the other white whistles, and her society as a whole, is benefitting from immoral sacrifice. I think that the acceptance of this fact, plus Prushka's ultimate desire for her father and the three main characters to get along, is what made Riko decide to forgo revenge in the end, and it's the decision that makes the most sense. Wouldn't it be ultimately worse to kill Bondrewd despite all of this, just to make people feel warm and fuzzy inside? I think so. |
the7thfloorApr 10, 2021 7:13 PM
| yes, bondrewd seems like a great villain and one of the best I've seen. |
 a wise user of MAL said: Just to clarify, adaptations should absolutely stand on their own |
the7thfloor said: Calal-Chan said: It honestly complicates his character a lot because from his viewpoint and even the world's viewpoint what he is doing isn't nearly as wrong as it would be in our world. Made in Abyss' laws don't follow the laws of our world. I'm not so sure that our moral condemnation of Bondrewd is due to our inherent values being all that different from people in that world. Rather, it's just that as objective viewers, we're privy to information and facts that the average person in that world is not, and similarly, we can draw more objective moral lines in the sand since we're immune from that world's cultural and societal influences. I think that even in the Made In Abyss world, Bondewd's experiments, if seen first-hand, would most likely be considered abhorrent by the majority of people. For example, even one of Bondrewd's henchmen questioned the morality of sacrificing the orphans back in the final episode of season one, and Ouzen, who acts in morally ambiguous ways at times herself, seems to regard him with at best, a respectful disgust. Those opinions, plus the viewpoint of the three main characters (that his actions are unforgivable) probably give us a good baseline about morality in this world. Consequently, I assume that those in the upper world would probably be horrified if they were forced to actually see the specifics of what's taking place in those experiments. At the same time, in the upper world, nobody seems to notice or care that hundreds of orphans and poor people have disappeared. This probably reflects very skewed class dynamics, where those without a proper place in society, in terms of economics or family, are seen as disposable. We also know, for example, that there is toxic pollution in the slums of the upper world, further reflecting an unfair, stratified society. Bondrewd himself seems to share this idea, since he remarks at one point that nobody will miss the victims of the experiments. The luckiest orphans, in the end, are forced to be cave raiders, an extremely dangerous job that while prestigious, mainly benefits society at large, at the risk of the raider's safety. The unlucky ones, well, we already know. Assuming that the higher ranking cave raiders have at least some idea of what's going on at the bottom of the fifth layer, they're probably able to compartmentalize the morality of the experiments in their heads due to not actually seeing them first hand (which is only a step removed from those in the upper world who see the orphans disappear and don't really question it). We can use Ouzen's disgusted acceptance of Bondrewd as a baseline for this assumption, because if even she thinks it's fucked up, can you imagine what the average raider would think? In any case, there's a sort of moral abstraction that allows these experiments to go on in the name of progress, since the victims are unknown, have little value to society, and their grim fates are unseen. In other words, it's not that the actions are morally acceptable, it's that they're easy to turn a blind eye to. This dynamic, in my view, mirrors very closely what happens in our world, where many of the riches of civilization are built on the suffering of others, from slaves, to overworked employees, to pollution, to war casualties, to slaughtered animals, and the majority of people use moral abstraction to ignore or compartmentalize the sacrifices that they all benefit from. The white whistles seem to embody this type of sacrifice, represented by the fact that they can only achieve their status by having a loved one willingly die for them. Along those lines, each white whistle that we know of has made other sacrifices in the name of progress, Ouzen taking all those wedges into her body and separating herself from the normal world, and Lyza first having to travel into the abyss while pregnant, and then forgoing the raising of her daughter in order to see the netherworld (which subsequently led to new discoveries about the abyss). They all carry these burdens so that society at large doesn't have to. Bondrewd, then, is the epitome of this, as someone who has sacrificed even his own humanity in the name of progress. The twisted form of love he feels towards his experiment subjects probably represents this better than anything. Rather than being indifferent, he accepts the kids' humanity and feels affection for them, and then throws their lives away anyway without batting an eye. To respond to the initial topic, killing Bondrewd would definitely be cathartic for many viewers because it would check that box of "good beats evil". However, it wouldn't really make sense considering this theme of sacrifice. His atrocities, after all, are the only thing allowing Riko and co. to continue their adventure. By proxy, then, Riko is benefitting from those atrocities, and considering that, you can't really say that her hands are clean. She, like the other white whistles, and her society as a whole, is benefitting from immoral sacrifice. I think that the acceptance of this fact, plus Prushka's ultimate desire for her father and the three main characters to get along, is what made Riko decide to forgo revenge in the end, and it's the decision that makes the most sense. Wouldn't it be ultimately worse to kill Bondrewd despite all of this, just to make people feel warm and fuzzy inside? I think so. Sorry that my response is going to be a lot shorter, but that is all very interesting for sure. I love that this movie has made people think in a lot of different ways. It is a good sign when a story can be interpreted in a whole bunch of different ways. And I do agree killing him would have been cathartic for many, but as you said it might have worse for the story, and honestly made in abyss isn't suppose to be cathartic. |
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Calal-Chan said: Sorry that my response is going to be a lot shorter, but that is all very interesting for sure. I love that this movie has made people think in a lot of different ways. It is a good sign when a story can be interpreted in a whole bunch of different ways. No worries, my post was a bit of a self-serving ramble anyway. And I definitely agree. This story's world really captures people's imaginations and leads to some very interesting discussions. |
charliechuckle said: The movie tries to show Bondrewd, or whatever as a gate keeper. Then at the end, we find out he was the trial needed to pass in order to get to the sixth level. Bondrewd explains that the only way to make a white whistle was to have a sacrifice. It seems like he designed everything for this very purpose of creating a white whistle for her journey. #1) By accepting the white whistle means you accepted the sacrifice. Just like every white whistle before this. Anyone traveling beyond to and beyond the 6th floor is basically a terrible inhuman person. Even Bondrewd admitted this when he suggested himself as a sacrifice. So, in my opinion, every character in this anime is trash. I'm OK with it, because it mirrors reality. #2) The only correct solution would be to abandon your greed, figure out a way to travel without a white whistle, etc. That decision would make this a boring anime, and isn't allowed to happen. I also think the white whistle will be used for more future "irrational" obstacles. Don't expect it to make logical sense. The white whistle has plot armor/attack stats beyond your rational thinking. I think the movie said it had to be a willing sacrifice, so technically you can't force someone to become a white whistle. Even Nanachi was surprised because Prushka hadn't even known Riko for that long. I'm sure throughout the history of this world people have been manipulated into the sacrifice (much in the same way Bondrewd manipulated his daughter and the other kids) but more often it was probably consensual, like it was part of the culture of their world to do so. The theory of Bondrewd setting this up is interesting though, because whoever wanted Riko to go down knew she couldn't use her mom's whistle so there had to be a sacrifice with a strong enough bond somewhere. Maybe it could've been Nanachi too, I doubt Reg was meant for that purpose since he'll probably have to protect her even more as they go deeper. |
Jualemwas said: Best character lol better than annoying stupid reg and stupid fmc, nachika annoying too but better than both of mc, i just stay because I curious about abbys and the other white whistle Amazing contribution mate, but...no. |
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| My conclusion regarding this topic is this |
See, this is a perfectly appropriate response. You recognise the reality of the situation, but have your own opinion. I mean, it's a sick opinion, but you gotta be allowed to state it :) |
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| @CallMeHoot Tbf at first i thought the same thing as you, I hated bondrewd. I didn't like his character. But after thinking about it more, I feel like that's precisely what makes his character great. (In some ways I can find his resemblance with Johan Liebert from "Monster" but its better if I don't discuss about Johan here since there may be spoilers.) You aren't supposed to feel remorse or sympathy towards him (unless you're messed up in the head XD). He isn't someone who deserves to be forgiven. But the thing is , he isn't evil, at least by his logic. There's no evil intentions behind his actions,no malice, he does not do what he does because he's a sadist or likes to torture the kids. He's a psychopath, an insane and messed up antagonist . His passion for discovering the secrets of the abyss took over his morality and humanity. Further the fact that he clearly remembers everyone's names is very interesting. Perhaps he respects them in his own weird way. Although this doesn't justify what he did in any way. I also have no idea whether his love for prushka was genuine or not, it's up to the viewers interpretation. I feel like a really good analogy is the train problem (it's probably not the correct name) where you have 2 rail tracks, one of them has 5 adults chained to it while the other has 1 child. The train's coming, the switch to change the tracks is in your hand. --Who do you kill ? Normally a human being wouldn't even be able to choose, it's just too much of a moral dilemma. But what about an A.I? Logically it's more likely that it'll choose to kill the child right? Obviously 5 lives > 1 life. That's what bondrewd is. Guided by his messed up and twisted logic, not by right and wrong. The sole reason you hate him , we hate him, is basically because we still have our humanity intact. So finally as a fictional character, bondrewd was entertaining. That's all. Liking him doesn't mean I agree with his principles or I liked watching "those" scenes. ( I actually had to pause multiple times to catch my breath lol, I even almost puked once). Also the fact that a single character can be the cause of such detailed discussions among the fan base with people defending both sides is a well written character at least according to me. I mean take a look just at this thread - each reply is like the size of an essay ffs lmao. That's all , hope you have a good day. ^-^ |
Youbamii said: CallMeHoot said: I'm not sure what I'm looking for posting this. I guess I'm just interested to hear other people's thoughts on the matter because I am way too invested in Riko, Reg and Nanachi's journey and their characters at this point and I have to sound off about Bondrewd. I just finished the movie and man, I was fucking SHAKING I was that angry at that piece of shit. Anyone that thinks Bondrewd has even the slightest hint of compassion or is any way redeemable needs their fucking head examined. Coldly, calculatedly fostering a child's love only because he needs that love to be "complete" before he can render her down into organs and use that love to replicate the bestowal of the Blessing for himself, just so he can dive further into the Abyss? And to do that ON TOP of what he already did to Mitty, Nanachi and all the other kids! This is holocaust levels of atrocity! Fuck that guy. Seriously. They should have blew up the Zoaholic and incinerated the entire host of Umbra hands methodically until only ash remained. I get that by being defeated he has "given up" on the Abyss and sees his defeat as a "passing of the torch", hence why he lets Riko & Co. proceed. I further get that Prushka's final moments were consumed with feeling for Riko & Co and her last wish was for reconciliation and a cease to the hostility. I further get that the lift to the 6th layer, the lab, the processing centre, etc, were all destroyed by Reg's blast. I even further get that if the 3 of them had tried to take him and all the Umbra hands down they might have failed and died. I mean they were pretty played out just taking down Bondrewd's main body. But...man, even knowing all that, it just feels bad that this absolute scab has escaped righteous justice. I know Made in Abyss isn't strictly about evil being punished. It's intentionally morally grey. It's about longing, desire, adventure, the call of the unknown and the relative value of life depending on who's looking at it but man...it still hurts. Not the best villain (i.e. very few people could honestly say they sympathise with his goals, unless you're a fucking psychopath) but certainly the most detestable villain I've come across in a long time. Well I watched this movie and I am very much upset so much that I have this movie a well bad rating, he didn't die after all that bull shit of making kids suffer and turning them into disgusting things nah man the mangaka better do something later down in the in story that will make me feel like oh so he gets what he deserves cuz now I have a nasty taste in my mouth due to this movie FrostLich said: Completely agreed. Yes, it was supposed to be science vs humanism theme, but this show overdid it with shock content so I can't stay in buddha mode and say - yeah, he had his own justified goals. SERIOUSLY. FUCK THIS GUY. Thank you, I thought I was going to go crazy seeing people praise this movie as if its the second coming of christ. The pacing and decisions they made honestly ruined the movie for me, I was expecting season 1 levels of story telling and what I got was a shitty cliched movie I'm shocked by this honestly |
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