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#1
Jan 24, 12:18 AM

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TL;DR: Stories are not simple. Genres are not what makes stories good and enjoyable in themselves.

1- A preface:

This is a semi response to a video by a famous Anituber. It is also a good topic to talk about. I didn't know a proper title for this topic. Sorry about that.

The video i am referring:
https://youtu.be/VcUXQBzY0Wk

You dont need to watch it if you wish cause it is mainly not about the video. Just wanted to tell you my reason for creating this thread. I really dont know how to bring the ideas in my head to words. This will be hard for me to do.

Opinions are just like that, opinions. They are not facts. It is really hard to tell an opinion without being criticized. I dont know anything. I just a dude that tells his opinion. Sorry in advance. I tell my opinion because it is fun. I dont like to see how others disagree with or know that i am wrong by others. But even with those downsides, it is actually fun to share my opinion. What i am trying to say here is that take my opinion with grain of salt. It will be interesting to see how other think about this topic.

2-The topic: Lets talk about genres:

Stories, just like real life, are not simple. They are not about one thing. They might have multiple colors, themes, characters, and other stuff i am not aware of. Especially if there have to be interesting. It is really easy to make a story, but it just hard to make ten if not thousand of people be interested in actually watching or reading it while also be enjoying themselves for doing that.

Sport anime, specifically the best of them, are not only about the sport itself. Just like good stories, they are about characters, life, water, food, sadness, happiness, good relationships, dreams, and so on and so on, sniff.

Same thing with other genres. The saying that sport or Mecha or music anime are under-rated or under-watchef is kind of ..... I dont really know really, but it is something i wouldn't say. It feels like it is missing the point or not understanding the complexity of what makes stories good or even interesting. I belive any kind of story can be made good and interesting. It is to do that, it has to be more than simple one premise or one genre. Genres are just like that, containers or preferences.

I feel there is some common stuff that can be found in all interesting enjoyable stories. So it is not really logical to think Geners are part of that reason or commonalities that makes stories good. Yes everyone is different and interested in different things for different reasons. But i believe down to the core, all good enjoyable stories have same thing, maybe.


What do you think?



 
#2
Jan 24, 12:45 AM
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Genre is mainly used as a classifying something rather than telling you what it does.
Good Stories, for the most part, aren't good because of its genre, in fact, at some point, the genre becomes secondary and mainly used as a vector to tell the story.
Using Sports as an example, Ping Pong is about well Ping Pong except not really, the conflict and the genre is used as a vector to facilitate character and their subsequent development.
 
#3
Jan 24, 12:53 AM

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OccultNonScience said:

You said it better than me. Thank you.
 
#4
Jan 24, 12:59 AM

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I think Digibro hits on a few of the points you bring up on his subsequent video on mecha.
The genre is something of a vehicle for communicating all of the things we love about stories, but really once it gets you going it's a part of the chaff to leave behind.

Talking circles about genre may be senseless but there's also something to the chamber of discourse that is created around them. Many series are commenting and pivoting off of the best in their sphere(the isekai novel boom focused in Shōsetsuka ni Narō, the normalizing practices of Manga publications like Shounen Jump, etc), there are landmark works and directors who are always coming back to the same genres(like Tomino who recently says nothing meaningful can be spoken without war), etc.
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#5
Jan 24, 1:08 AM

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True. Genres are simply classifications of story to give people a general idea of what they are walking into. They aren't what define whether a story is good or bad.
I myself am a writer and I don't even think of what genres my stories fall in when I write them. It is only when actually presenting it to people that I finally question things like that.

That said, I do feel that sports anime are a bit underwatched because a lot of people just don't see the genre is same light as others.
I am not trying to say "sports anime are great" or "sports anime are bad" as that is upto people's personal opinions. But I would oppose the idea "sports anime CAN'T be good" as this is the notion a lot of people have for ignoring the genre. (I am not one to talk though as I've only watched two of them myself)

Modified by Abhay2333, Jan 24, 1:14 AM

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#6
Jan 24, 1:19 AM

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Abhay2333 said:
I am not trying to say "sports anime are great" or "sports anime are bad" as that is upto people's personal opinions. But I would oppose the idea "sports anime CAN'T be good" as this is the notion a lot of people have for ignoring the genre. (I am not one to talk though as I've only watched two of them myself)

You are bringing a good point there. I feel you are right. There are many who would oppose to wtaching/reading a story when a classification/genre is attached to them such as sport. Is a perspective i didnt talk about in my topic or didn't think about at the time. In that sense Digi might have good points. Maybe trying to make people break that notion amd try wtaching other anime.
 
#7
Jan 24, 1:23 AM

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Huss said:
Stories are not simple.

Well duuuh.

Huss said:
Genres are not what makes stories good and enjoyable

Certainly. This is the job of the author...the storyteller: to make the story compelling and meaningful.

But knowing the genres (and other info tags) of certain title tells you the themes and the setting. In some cases (especially with certain info tags) you can pretty much guess the narrative structure too.
People have strong preferences especially if we talk about entertainment so they have the right to be picky.

Huss said:
Sport anime, specifically the best of them, are not only about the sport itself.

This is my main problem with sport anime - it is rarely about the real sport, mostly some melodrama (+ fujobait of course) that has nothing to do the real experience that people practising it have.

Huss said:
The saying that sport or Mecha or music anime are under-rated or under-watchef is kind of ..... I dont really know really, but it is something i wouldn't say. It feels like it is missing the point or not understanding the complexity of what makes stories good or even interesting. I belive any kind of story can be made good and interesting.

I think you are missing the point why people don't watch and appreciate those. They don't care about good storytelling or meaningful messages. They care about hype trains, what is trendy right now and will this title give them "the feels". (I guess the last means intense melodrama and tearjerking.)

And to be fair most of the nowadays mecha titles try to tell stories that are absurdly stupid (just look at Egao no Daika or Granbelm) so even mecha fans like me get offended by them.
 
#8
Jan 24, 1:42 AM

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I agree with your overall point genres are not what makes the stories good it's the author.
But different people have preferences in different type of genres and the stories that they entail.
And there is nothing wrong with not watching anime from some genres that you don't prefer.
There is no point in forcing yourself to watching something you don't enjoy.
As much as I like Digibro the beginning of that video was extremely cringeworthy and obnoxious.
And I disagree with him not everyone has to like sports anime not everyone will enjoy sports anime.
Anime is entertainment people should watch whatever they find entertaining.

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#9
Jan 24, 1:57 AM

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Most people do not have taste, so they cannot seperate between stories.
They think there is nothing wrong with saying nothing about the things one love. Caring about something one love, means risking oneself for that love. The easiest way to do that is to debate about it or show insight into what makes it tick, even when faced with criticism or actually being wrong about it.
There is stronger engagement than mere entertainment.
 
Jan 24, 6:06 AM

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I see what you're saying. Genre just gives a very loose framwork and doesn't define a story as much as some people think. Therefore, the idea in that YouTube vid (going based on title, didn't watch) that people can be sleeping on certain genres and then trying to talk about all stories in that genre as if they share some super important link... Well, actually I do think people can sleep on genres. It could be said that I'm sleeping on sports anime because I don't watch them very often, if anything I avoid them, for various reasons. I am probably missing out on some great stories. But the point about speaking of a genre of anime as though they are one definite thing, and how that is an oversimplification and kind of meaningless... I think that has some weight.
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Jan 24, 12:46 PM
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Xstasy said:

As much as I like Digibro the beginning of that video was extremely cringeworthy and obnoxious


This mostly comes down to personal preference, but I thought it was hilarious. He's making fun of dumbfucks who refuse to try anything from an entire genre based on weak reasoning like "I don't like sports"

Xstasy said:

And I disagree with him not everyone has to like sports anime not everyone will enjoy sports anime


He never says that everyone has to like sports anime or that everyone will enjoy sports anime, he says that you shouldn't dismiss the sports genre when you haven't given it a chance. That doesn't mean you have to watch shows in that genre, it just means you shouldn't talk out of your ass about a genre that you haven't consumed much of.
Modified by CynicalMatt, Jan 24, 12:54 PM
 
Jan 24, 12:49 PM
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Huss said:
Genres are not what makes stories good and enjoyable in themselves.


This is common sense and does not need a discussion.
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Jan 24, 12:52 PM

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What/who the hell is Geners? I don't know such a thing. But why is OPs writing about Genres? What does Genres have to do with a Gener or Geners?
 
Jan 24, 1:11 PM

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CynicalMatt said:
Xstasy said:

As much as I like Digibro the beginning of that video was extremely cringeworthy and obnoxious


This mostly comes down to personal preference, but I thought it was hilarious. He's making fun of dumbfucks who refuse to try anything from an entire genre based on weak reasoning like "I don't like sports"

Xstasy said:

And I disagree with him not everyone has to like sports anime not everyone will enjoy sports anime


He never says that everyone has to like sports anime or that everyone will enjoy sports anime, he says that you shouldn't dismiss the sports genre when you haven't given it a chance. That doesn't mean you have to watch shows in that genre, it just means you shouldn't talk out of your ass about a genre that you haven't consumed much of.


The title of that video is literally "STOP SLEEPING ON SPORTS ANIME", and throughout the entirety of that video he is hyping and talking about how people should watch sports anime and calling people retarded for not liking sports anime which is just ridiculous and toxic.
Not wanting to watch sports anime because you don't like sports is a perfectly valid reason.
Nothing is more going to convince people to watch sports anime then throwing insults at them.
Gigguk video was far better

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Jan 24, 1:32 PM
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Xstasy said:
CynicalMatt said:


This mostly comes down to personal preference, but I thought it was hilarious. He's making fun of dumbfucks who refuse to try anything from an entire genre based on weak reasoning like "I don't like sports"



He never says that everyone has to like sports anime or that everyone will enjoy sports anime, he says that you shouldn't dismiss the sports genre when you haven't given it a chance. That doesn't mean you have to watch shows in that genre, it just means you shouldn't talk out of your ass about a genre that you haven't consumed much of.


The title of that video is literally "STOP SLEEPING ON SPORTS ANIME", and throughout the entirety of that video he is hyping and talking about how people should watch sports anime and calling people retarded for not liking sports anime which is just ridiculous and toxic.


I really feel you didn't understand the video. He isn't calling people retarded for not liking sports anime, he's calling them retarded for not even trying them and then talking about them/dismissing the entire genre.
 
Jan 24, 2:25 PM

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Yeah...of course genre don't decide if a show is good or not. They're meant to be a sort of little into as to what to expect in a series. If I see the mecha tag it's highly likely that show will have giant robots of some sort. But the reverse is also true. If you see the ecchi tag, and you tend not to like those, then that's there to help you avoid them.....Yet some people still watch and then complain about how an ecchi series has ecchi scenes in it.....but I'm not here to bitch about that....So are genre tags meant to inform you whether or not a show will be good? No. "isekai" isn't even used as a genre tag, yet people lump them together collectively as shit. But they can be a decent starting point when choosing what to watch. I'll also add the synopsis can also be completely useless when deciding what to watch at times too.
 
Jan 24, 4:01 PM

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He made a new video for the mecha genre hours ago... I don't know but this is really obvious to me a genre can't make an anime good/bad. This is pretty much like ignoring some anime just because art style and/or animation

And at least Sports and mecha anime have some fans. Idol anime are far more ignored in the community and it's obvious idol shows aren't just about music, dancing and stuff and more importantly is the growth and the interaction of characters. The same goes for anime targeted at females fujo-bait shows even myself trolling these type of shows but probably some of them are good
 
Jan 24, 4:25 PM

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CynicalMatt said:
He isn't calling people retarded for not liking sports anime

He is...he is joking tho...but...

CynicalMatt said:
he's calling them retarded for not even trying them and then talking about them/dismissing the entire genre.

- He presumes that people haven't watched any sport anime and skipping it without reason.
Not always the case tho.
- He presumes that people have never heard of those titles he lists...personally I have heard of them all (well mimus 2-3), have tried some episodes from some and even completed one of them.
- He presumes that everyone likes Haikyu. Pfff.
- His final sentence is "And watch more sport anime!"...not to give it fair chance or something.
His actual rant is against people who only watched + loked Haikyu and people genuinely disliking this genre are getting some flack in the process.
 
Jan 24, 9:51 PM
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CynicalMatt said:
he's calling them retarded for not even trying them and then talking about them/dismissing the entire genre.

alshu said:

- He presumes that people haven't watched any sport anime and skipping it without reason.
Not always the case tho.


Not exactly. He doesn't think that literally everyone does that, it's more like the video is talking about people like that.

alshu said:

- He presumes that people have never heard of those titles he lists...personally I have heard of them all (well mimus 2-3), have tried some episodes from some and even completed one of them.


I wouldn't really say he assumes that people have never heard of the shows he mentions. He just lists off a bunch of shows and gives a little blurb about each one to try and entice people to check them out if they haven't already.

alshu said:

- He presumes that everyone likes Haikyu. Pfff.


Again, he doesn't assume that literally everyone likes Haikyuu, he says that there are too many people who think Haikyuu is the pinnacle of the genre when they haven't even seen the super beloved classic sports shows.

alshu said:

- His final sentence is "And watch more sport anime!"...not to give it fair chance or something.


This is a misunderstanding I can see people having if they don't know of Digi and his opinions that well. He definitely doesn't expect people to watch shows they don't enjoy, he's just trying to convince people to check out more sports shows. Also, the part that comes before that, "So please... I beseech you, watch these shows. These are good shows." He's asking people to try them, not demanding they watch every show in its entirety.
Modified by CynicalMatt, Jan 24, 9:56 PM
 
Jan 25, 4:10 AM

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CynicalMatt said:

Not exactly...I wouldn't really say he assumes

Dude, I watched the video.

CynicalMatt said:
Again, he doesn't assume that literally everyone likes Haikyuu,

Not literally everyone, but he was ranting about too may anitubers praising it being unique...which is more of a result of those youtubers trying to exploit it's popularity.

CynicalMatt said:
This is a misunderstanding I can see people having if they don't know of Digi

But I know Digi.
In this and in its next video (him don't caring about premises) he basically accuses people being prejudice...surprisingly he sometimes acts with prejudice just in different circumstances.
Like he should practice what he preaches.

Also he has the habit of start series. liking the beginning, putung them on hiatus, never complete them but still judging them by those good initial impressions...
In many cases those projects run out of steam few episodes in, thus he doesn't have anymore adequate judgement but still uses it.

CynicalMatt said:
"So please... I beseech you, watch these shows. These are good shows." He's asking people to try them, not demanding they watch every show in its entirety.

I guess the dramatic tone here is for laughs but "good show" is one thing and "personally enjoy certain show" is a very different and sometimes unrelated event.
For example I know that Eva is a good show, at least from technical aspect but it's totally unbearable for me...and I am a mecha fan, so I am not prejudice.
 
Jan 25, 11:41 AM
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alshu said:
CynicalMatt said:

Not exactly...I wouldn't really say he assumes

Dude, I watched the video.

Yeah, well it doesn't seem like you were paying attention.

alshu said:
CynicalMatt said:
Again, he doesn't assume that literally everyone likes Haikyuu,

Not literally everyone, but he was ranting about too may anitubers praising it being unique...which is more of a result of those youtubers trying to exploit it's popularity.


Yes, which is very different from "presuming everyone likes Haikyuu"

alshu said:
CynicalMatt said:
This is a misunderstanding I can see people having if they don't know of Digi

But I know Digi.
In this and in its next video (him don't caring about premises) he basically accuses people being prejudice...


No, you clearly don't know of his positions that well and you don't seem to understand what prejudice means either. In this video, his main point is that too many people talk shit about or dismiss the sports genre without giving it a chance and he criticizes people for saying things about the genre when they don't know anything about it. In the next video, he criticizes people who value premise too much because the premise has basically no bearing on whether a show will turn out to be good or not. None of that is "prejudiced"

alshu said:

Also he has the habit of start series. liking the beginning, putung them on hiatus, never complete them but still judging them by those good initial impressions...


I don't disagree with this, but usually in cases like that he preempts it by saying like "from what I've seen it's a good show. Or I've only seen a few episodes, but they were great."
I don't really have a problem with this personally.
 
Jan 25, 11:49 AM

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Xstasy said:
CynicalMatt said:


This mostly comes down to personal preference, but I thought it was hilarious. He's making fun of dumbfucks who refuse to try anything from an entire genre based on weak reasoning like "I don't like sports"



He never says that everyone has to like sports anime or that everyone will enjoy sports anime, he says that you shouldn't dismiss the sports genre when you haven't given it a chance. That doesn't mean you have to watch shows in that genre, it just means you shouldn't talk out of your ass about a genre that you haven't consumed much of.


The title of that video is literally "STOP SLEEPING ON SPORTS ANIME", and throughout the entirety of that video he is hyping and talking about how people should watch sports anime and calling people retarded for not liking sports anime which is just ridiculous and toxic.
Not wanting to watch sports anime because you don't like sports is a perfectly valid reason.
Nothing is more going to convince people to watch sports anime then throwing insults at them.
Gigguk video was far better

Don't compare Gigguk with that dumb fuck of an anituber. I absolutely hate Digibro. It's because of people like him, other good anitubers like Gigguk and Nux Taku also get trashed on. Both of them are classes apart. So obviously Gigguk's video would be miles better.

Anyways I haven't watched a lot of sports animes but I agree with you that genres don't define a good anime.

Fantasy is my favourite genre. Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood and the Smartphone isekai are both fantasy. So it's quite clear right.
Modified by biswa290701, Jan 25, 11:52 AM
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Jan 25, 12:21 PM

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OP, that was a lot of words to say, "Genres don't define a story".

And, like, yeah, obviously. But all things being equal, I'm going to choose something else over a sports anime, because it can have everything I might like about a sports anime, plus I'm interested in or can relate to or are inspired by the central premise.

All things being equal. I'm not saying I'll never see one - if one comes highly recommended, and I can interest myself in the premise, sure, I'll check that out! But until then, I'm going to go for the safer bets that my plan to watch list is already filled with.
 
Jan 25, 3:41 PM

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CynicalMatt said:

Yeah, well it doesn't seem like you were paying attention.

Or you are reading between the lines more than the author wanted to say.

CynicalMatt said:
Yes, which is very different from "presuming everyone likes Haikyuu"

How about "everyone which opinion is important to Digi (like colleagues) not some MAL randos"?

CynicalMatt said:
No, you clearly don't know of his positions

Maybe...but he is not serious 90% of the time so...

CynicalMatt said:
you don't seem to understand what prejudice means either

Go check in the dictionary and tell me that it's not about judging something in advance without enough information...I will be surprised.

CynicalMatt said:
In this video, his main point is that too many people talk shit about or dismiss the sports genre without giving it a chance and he criticizes people for saying things about the genre when they don't know anything about it.

And this is not prejudice?

CynicalMatt said:
In the next video, he criticizes people who value premise too much because the premise has basically no bearing on whether a show will turn out to be good or not.

The "pre" is a hint here.

CynicalMatt said:
None of that is "prejudiced"

What term you would prefer, "bias"?


CynicalMatt said:
but usually in cases like that he preempts it by saying like "from what I've seen it's a good show.

If he comments on certain show, yes he does that (in some cases he forgets tho...like genuinely forgets), but when comparing to other shows or taking decisions...
Also a lot of sport shows from this list and from the mecha list (the third video from this series) he haven't watched to the end. Warning or not, this "those are good shows" is not entirely based on fair judgment.

CynicalMatt said:

I don't really have a problem with this personally.

Good for you than.
 
Jan 25, 4:31 PM
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I mean, he has a point there. Even if you don't like (specific) sports, you still could enjoy some sports anime because of some other elements. The characters, the animation, whatever.

But preferences for certain genres, settings and even narrow taste like specifuc sports exists. Simply because there exist tenthousands of anime out there and since you don't have the time to try everything out, you become very selective.

For example I like sports like ice skating, dancing, archery. Even if I dont do them myself, I think they are looking very elegant. That's an important reason why I liked to watch Yuri on Ice, Welcome to the Ballroom and Tsurune. Sometimes I watched other sports too, but only the characters and animation dragged me in and I still wasn't THAT much into it, like watching sports I actually like much more than others.

Also not about sports, but I have to say I just never liked most SciFi settings that are too technogicalized or take place in space etc too much. I give the genre that it has very good anime like Ghost in the Shell and I give the genre that it has interesting philosophical questions about humanity and how we will deal with technology too etc.
Do I feel comfortable with and really passionated about the typical Cyberpunk settings or too much technology? Well, absolutely not. One reason is because I, as a person, just see my technological devices as nothing more than useful tools and don't like it at all, when my environment is too technological, while some nerds are really into technology and actually have a passion for this and then might love such settings more than I do too.


That one he mentioned at 6.30, that sounds actually very interesting. Thx for the video. ^^

One sports anime I didn't enjoy for the sports at all but fully for the character drama, was Stars Align tho.

I scrolled through his list and he also continued that: https://youtu.be/gCrJ7JqGmkk
Well, it really depends on how much you value a premise or setting before you start it.
And yes, when I was a teenager, I also was like: "Must watch this, I like the fantasy setting", but it really doesn't mean I'm less picky about my favorite genres and settings. I'm even more picky, if I love genres and the more I've seen from it, the more I know where it could aim to.
I love and hate fantasy, I love and hate horror, I love and hate battle shounen, I love and hate romances and especially GL / BL stuff.

I understand the appeal of trying something new too. Hell I was like: "We should go and see the northern lights this winter" after we watched A Place Further Than The Universe. And we actually did.
But I was dragged in for the drama and the setting for the adventure in first place. It wasn't an "off-putting" setting at all.

Sometimes I might like SciFi or sports, but it is normal that people have preferences and won't watch everything with equal passion and since this is my hobby, I stop as soon as I feel like I was forcing myself since three episodes through it or something.

I don't want to consume too much either (or too much at the same time), so often I'll be naturally stucked with stuff I have at least some kind of preference for.
So I sometimes devide my ptw and dropped-list. Sometimes I make my ptw-list much smaller, because I wanna be left with stuff I wanted to watch badly since a long time and stuff I could get myself really emotionally invested in for quite a long time.
Not hurrying to the next, because you have to try a lot of different anime genres, premises and settings.

It's just really more about priorities and deciding what you want to watch next. If I hsve to choose between pure Cyberpunk SciFi then or something I'm more interested in, I'll pick the second one.
Modified by Maneki-Mew, Jan 25, 5:43 PM
 
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