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Jan 22, 3:10 PM

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@Shirakawa_Megumi

Megumin, yes, this 'gender game' as is can only exist under the notion of traditional gender roles, given that it does exist in a culture permeated by traditional gender roles. Yes, the notions of rupture can only exist when there's something to be ruptured with. Wanting to lessen the coercivity of traditional gender roles or wanting to change them doesn't mean, however, that the 'gender game' doesn't or can't exist, it would only be a different one. In other words, being social constructs means they need to rely on society as it is as a matter of fact.

So, people can still claim for the abolition of traditional gender roles and recognize transgenderism as a valid identity/concern. One is in the realm of ideas (I want there to be no coercivity for gender roles) and the other in the realm of reality (Our society is still permeated by gender roles, people are still programmed according to it and there are people that feel the need to conform their identity to their expression).

Only because there's a link of coercivity between sex and expected gender expression, transgenderism is connected to sex. Were there no expectations on gender identity and gender expression based on sex, maybe there would be no mismatch. On the other hand, given that people were raised with traditional gender roles, they feel the need to conform to these roles to portray themselves to others, to be recognized by their gender. Why? Because we live in a gendered society.

Wanting to 'erase' traditional gender roles or the coercivity of biological sex would lead to either 1) the existence of no gender roles, in which people don't need to identify as anything because they don't need to conform; 2) gender roles being rendered so useless, there's no need to identify as anything; or 3) new gender roles not being based on sex, which is binary, and spreading them across a spectrum. Any of these could or not be the goal of some critics, depending on the school of thought. Because of this, you'll find my comments aren't the be all, end all on the matter.

Even so, saying that because people recognize the transgender cause today they can't advocate either for the non-coercivity of gender roles or for the abolishing of gender altogether is, honestly, a lapse in logic, because, as I said, one deals with an idea and the other with current society, with current people, with current problems.
Modified by Kosmonaut, Jan 22, 3:26 PM
 
Jan 22, 4:38 PM

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Kosmonaut said:

Even so, saying that because people recognize the transgender cause today they can't advocate either for the non-coercivity of gender roles or for the abolishing of gender altogether is, honestly, a lapse in logic, because, as I said, one deals with an idea and the other with current society, with current people, with current problems.


Okay...

So to sum up. The plan is something like that:

1. We deem traditional male/female roles as sexist and swear to destroy them

2. This will take time, so to patch up society for now, we will promote idea of transgenderism to make some allies and slowly erase society based on biological sex

3. The end goal is to destroy traditional male/female roles and society based on biological sex and instead of that make society where nobody has such thing as "gender role" meaning eliminating biological sex completely, making babies in incubators, and giving them to dull sexless human bodies.

I now understand. This all make sense.

However!

I'll say one more time, it's very bad and horrifying idea. There was already anime, which gave us lesson what would happen if these dangerous fantasies will win.

It's basic human nature to be different because of biological sex. It's not social construct, that's literally how we are made up. Roles which males and females are usually better at come all from our biological differences. And some people, somewhere like that "inviting" girl from Australia is actively day after day trying to manipulate everyone to start hating biological sex and join the church of woke.

One more time. It's very bad, very bad idea!

Because deep down in our human nature, we are sexual beings, and trying to ericate that means that whoever wants that is trying to destroy humanity. We sexual being ultimately yearn for opposite sex (with small exceptions of gays and lesbians, who are welcomed warmly as our allies if they are homoSEXual, because we fight for the same thing!). We yearn to snug into that wet, tight, beautiful dino manko as males! Girls wants to get lovely chinko! I can't accept people, who are actively trying to lead humanity to the end. Please, join our fight all you who agree with me!

俺の好きな番号は二六七八二九だ。

めぐみんを求めるのは犯罪なのだ?
 
Jan 22, 5:00 PM

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The reason why anime is so good is because it is not infested by western diversity PC garbage. I pray to god that immigration never happens to japan.
 
Jan 22, 5:22 PM

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@Shirakawa_Megumi

No, Megumin, I said nothing like that and you know I said nothing like that, because you're not debating me, you're debating your 'perfect opponent' to whose arguments you already came up with the counterpoints.

You said this 'gender game' can't be played without traditional gender roles, I explained to you why. You said being a supporter of the transgender cause can't coexist in someone that wants no coercivity in gender roles or no gender roles at all, I explained how this doesn't hold up. I never said with which side I agree, if any at all. I never said anything about 'sexless bodies' or 'incubators', once again you conflate sex with gender. Advocating for no obligation of gender roles based on sex isn't getting rid of biological sex, it's getting rid of an obligation to conform to certain sets of culturally imposed behaviors just because of sex. Again, I never called anything sexist, at most I implied it was restricting.

The 'gender game' doesn't get rid of sexuality or expressions of sexuality, once again, it defines an obligatory way of being sexual based on biological sex as restricting. Sex as in physical interaction and sex as in set of reproductive organs are different things you're conflating.

Once more, I'm not denying biological differences between the sexes, nor tendencies to do certain things, I'm saying that the coercivity, obligation to abide to certain roles because of such differences is a social and cultural one that, ultimately, has barely anything to do with biological sex despite claiming to. Men can still be told to behave like a 'proper' man and women can still be told to behave like a 'proper' woman. What is a proper man/woman? If it were just having a certain biological sex, certainly no one would need to 'behave like a proper one', correct? You'd just have the 'proper' genitalia and that's it. It isn't like that though. Then, man or woman is an action, not an inherent state. Talking about gender roles isn't talking about biological sex, sexual intercourse or expressions of sexuality, therefore extrapolating to 'sexless bodies' and 'incubators' is at best biased and at worst dishonest.
Modified by Kosmonaut, Jan 22, 5:25 PM
 
Jan 22, 5:48 PM

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@Kosmonaut

I never said that you are my opponent. You are mystery to me. Truly the being I have big respect for, because I can't crack up your 存在. But I'm thankful you explained their plan to me.


No, I'm not "conflating" anything. The origins of sexuality are sexual organs and sex as in male/female. It's not restricting, it's just how it is.

Of course, the roles which male and female take and how they behave is product of society. But in most basic things, it's product of our sexuality. And what society produced was because of sexuality and sex (as in male/female) of member of such society.

I really don't understand why some people (I don't say you) take an oath to just destroy biological basis of human interactions. Why they try to "improve" society, by denying people to live as nature intended. The whole concept of neo-society and destroying everything is just sad to me.

" Advocating for no obligation of gender roles based on sex isn't getting rid of biological sex, it's getting rid of an obligation to conform to certain sets of culturally imposed behaviors. Again, I never called anything sexist, at most I implied it was restricting."

Okay and that. We for most part have that already! And I don't want to make society, where female must stay at home, produce dozen of offspring, while male is working. No, people have choice now and that's nice.

I don't understand, why people want to create this false world, where people are encouraged to pretend to be what they aren't and world where anything not ideal symmetrical between males and females is deemed bad and not acceptable.

No matter how much some people scream, males and females are different, and we should use these differences to make society better, not throw every person who says that to jail.

Just in other thread I saw some far left individual calling person racist, because he has sexual preferences for some races, but not other. All that fighting for right for people to "love like they want to" just for that. Just like when it comes to "gender game". I read many posts by transgender people on reddit trans subs, where they said that excluding transgender people from your dating pool is transphobic. They believe we, sex believers, shouldn't be allowed to have genital + correct level of hormones preference.

This makes me feel very worried about our future. I don't want to end in concentration camp, because Angela Merkel will sell heterosexuals to far left in exchange for third gas pipe connecting Russia to Germany.
俺の好きな番号は二六七八二九だ。

めぐみんを求めるのは犯罪なのだ?
 
Jan 22, 6:18 PM

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I've never seen this kind of argument to begin with well aside from it being not targeted to appeal to gays which is true that is a different genre for that.
 
Jan 22, 7:26 PM

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The "yaoi rape" argument is retarded. The guy getting dominated clearly wants it. The body language clearly contradict all of the pleas to stop. How do people not see this?

Also, yaoi guys are actually far more realistic than most would care to admit. The unrealistic aspects tend to be positive points more than anything.
 
Jan 23, 2:24 AM

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shirakawa_megumi said:
MySweetLucifer said:
@deadoptimist I just read Yaoi, Doujins and BL for fun, I don't take them seriously. I absolutely agree with most of what you written their. But peoples are allowed to enjoy whatever the fuck they want in fiction.


I was discussing a lot on Reddit. People literally believe, that doujinshi has to obey real life (what more important US (America fuck yeah!!!)) laws. For them every doujin which has girl below US age of consent, which is 18 in most cases (there are some states with 16, but it's often only for people below 21, 22+16 jail), was literal rape. Doesn't matter that girls were consenting and happy. No, it's rape, because our real life laws says so.

And of course everyone is pedophile, because word pedophile lost it's meaning long ago, and people use it for "crime of having sexual contact with person below age of consent", so for US people fucking 17 year old if you like even just 25, means "pedophilia".

Oh, poor Americans. They always freak out, when they learn that in Europe 14-16 are legal.

And of course, that same Reddit has enormous amounts of girls, who just wait to hit 18 to be thots online and even more people who wait to see them. Because it's now fine, she is adult and now switch was switched to "okay to lewd".

Japan, stay strong, don't let hypocritical west to destroy your cultural heritage. Make wildest shit possible, to fight this regressives and puritans.

敵を殺せ。勝利だ!


Yeah, the pedo-paranoia is really sad tho. 18 as the age of consent is really retarded. I think this makes life even more depressive for teens of all kinds.
I'm glad that I live in Germany tho. But it's 14-16 and 16-18 which is pretty retarded again.
This is pure madness to consider a 14 year old to be a kid.
"Yesterday I wasn't allowed to do that dirty stuff, but today it's magically allowed."
 
Jan 23, 2:42 AM

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SynthwaveCrusade said:
as long as fujoshi's aren't sending death threats I'm all g
Yeah bcs only fujo sends death threats to ppl.

Many fanatic fans actually sending death threats to producer, singers, authors and the like. Even the recent Darling in The Franxx fans -_-

It's more about the person's personality regardless of where they stood.

There is always be toxic fans in any fandom, sadly.
OTP: Kid x Law | Katsuki x Izuku | Erwin x Levi | Hide x Kaneki | Sanada x Yukimura | Guren x Shinya | See more!

» My doujinshi collection
» Favorite Boku no Hero Academia doujinshi
 
Jan 23, 3:09 AM

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MySweetLucifer said:
shirakawa_megumi said:


I was discussing a lot on Reddit. People literally believe, that doujinshi has to obey real life (what more important US (America fuck yeah!!!)) laws. For them every doujin which has girl below US age of consent, which is 18 in most cases (there are some states with 16, but it's often only for people below 21, 22+16 jail), was literal rape. Doesn't matter that girls were consenting and happy. No, it's rape, because our real life laws says so.

And of course everyone is pedophile, because word pedophile lost it's meaning long ago, and people use it for "crime of having sexual contact with person below age of consent", so for US people fucking 17 year old if you like even just 25, means "pedophilia".

Oh, poor Americans. They always freak out, when they learn that in Europe 14-16 are legal.

And of course, that same Reddit has enormous amounts of girls, who just wait to hit 18 to be thots online and even more people who wait to see them. Because it's now fine, she is adult and now switch was switched to "okay to lewd".

Japan, stay strong, don't let hypocritical west to destroy your cultural heritage. Make wildest shit possible, to fight this regressives and puritans.

敵を殺せ。勝利だ!


Yeah, the pedo-paranoia is really sad tho. 18 as the age of consent is really retarded. I think this makes life even more depressive for teens of all kinds.
I'm glad that I live in Germany tho. But it's 14-16 and 16-18 which is pretty retarded again.
This is pure madness to consider a 14 year old to be a kid.
"Yesterday I wasn't allowed to do that dirty stuff, but today it's magically allowed."


I read German penal code, paragraphs who de facto define age of consent.

It's 16 without restrictions, 14-15 can potentially be crime, if person above 21 will use immaturity of such person to get into sexual contact. However it's not prosecuted by stated and case can be dismissed. I was talking some time ago with other German person, who said the same thing, if both parties consent, then won't be a problem.

But sure I can understand 14 is kinda low, but 16-17? US people freak out that anybody would dare to think that these sexually mature people are sexually attractive to someone above 18.


Section 176
Sexual abuse of children

(1) Whoever performs sexual acts on a person under 14 years of age (child) or has the child perform sexual acts on them incurs a penalty of imprisonment for a term of between six months and 10 years.


Section 182
Sexual abuse of juveniles

(3) A person over 21 years of age who abuses a person under 16 years of age by

1. performing sexual acts on that person or having that person perform sexual acts on them or

2. causing that person to perform sexual acts on a third person or to have a third person perform sexual acts on that person,

and thereby exploits the victim’s lack of capacity for sexual self-determination, incurs a penalty of imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years or a fine.

(4) The attempt is punishable.

(5) In the cases under subsection (3), the offence is prosecuted only upon request, unless the prosecuting authority deems there to be a special public interest in prosecution which calls for ex officio intervention.

(6) In the cases under subsections (1) to (3), the court may dispense with imposing a penalty pursuant to these provisions if, having regard to the conduct of the person against whom the offence was committed, the wrongfulness of the act is minor.

From https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p1633
俺の好きな番号は二六七八二九だ。

めぐみんを求めるのは犯罪なのだ?
 
Jan 23, 4:37 AM

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Shicchi said:
SynthwaveCrusade said:
as long as fujoshi's aren't sending death threats I'm all g
Yeah bcs only fujo sends death threats to ppl.

Many fanatic fans actually sending death threats to producer, singers, authors and the like. Even the recent Darling in The Franxx fans -_-

It's more about the person's personality regardless of where they stood.

There is always be toxic fans in any fandom, sadly.


yes but this thread is about gay representation and Fujoshi, that's why I say fujoshi not fanatical fans.
Yare Yare Cuban Missile Crisis Daze
 
Jan 24, 10:41 PM

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Xstasy said:
Yaoi manga is created by the women for the women, gay manga is called Bara.
Many gay people don't like the way relationships are portrayed in yaoi, they often criticize the fetishization and rapey aspect of it.
They feel like it gives a negative image to gay people by promoting and reinforcing negative stereotypes like promiscuity.
Most people in general don't like rapey romances and find them off putting and disturbing.


Took the words right outta my mouth
I don’t really care what you like, as long as you know how things work in fiction=/=how things really work in real life
 
Jan 25, 3:50 AM

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There will be people that like it, there will be people that don't mind other people liking it, and there will be people that don't like it.

We can't force people to change their preferences lmao. Extremists exist on both ends, though. Even so, you can't do anything about that.



"Emotion always has its roots in the unconscious
and manifests itself in the body."
 
Jan 25, 4:20 AM

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I, a heterosexual white male have to say:

just be gay
 
Jan 25, 4:29 PM

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Let the people who are actually part of that group represent themselves. Like on the yaoi issue, let actual gay people say what they think and represent themselves because not every gay person thinks that yaoi is bad and not every gay person thinks that yaoi is bad. Because everybody those people have there own different opinions about it.
my is only four things. anime, school, sleep and roaming the internet.
 
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