which animation or sakuga do you prefer more is it from Trigger studio (Kanada School) or Kyoto Animation (fluid animation)?
which animation or sakuga do you prefer more is it from Trigger studio (Kanada School) or Kyoto Animation (fluid animation)?
| as you might know Trigger studio works particularly by Hiroyuki Imaishi is popular in the west and i think its because of their wacky or cartoony animation too that is actually called Kanada School style of animation that heavily emphasize on character deformation (off-model) with a lot of striking poses but usually do not have fluid animation so let me ask MAL since its an international community do you prefer Trigger/Kanada School style of sakuga animation or the more fluid sakuga animation with consistent on-model character art style/drawings by the likes of Kyoto Animation? some examples from Trigger/Kanada School https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/35212 https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/48897 https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/64255 as for kyoto animation well you do not need examples for that lol since fluid animation means fluid anyway and im sure a lot of people have seen some Kyoto Animation by now already too so ye sakuga is not just fluid animation but also the animation style of animators or the studio(?) too and thoughts overall? i selected this 2 studio alone since they are like the opposite of each other most of the time when it comes to animation or sakuga style and obviously im a Trigger studio fan |
| I heavily prefer fluid animation, what you describe as "Kanada school" always looks quite sloppy to me. |
| Well, in a vacuum I'd probably pick Imaishi/Trigger but these things don't exist in a vacuum, they just focus on different aspects which benefit different types of shows. If you simply exchange animation styles for existing Trigger/KyoAni shows the result would be bad on both sides. KyoAni's style is perfect for character driven drama since they're great at subtleties and nuances, at animaing facial expressions and body language and the likes. Which is perfect for the types of show they tend to make. Meanwhile the Trigger style is greta for fast-paced action and comedic timing and exaggerating situations. Which is all they want to do in most of their shows. So It's also a perfect fit for what they are trying to do. So I think in the end it's less a question of which style you prefer and more a question of whether you prefer slice of life or fast-paced action/comedy. Cause both studios have perfected their respective styles. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| I'll take the Trigger/Kanada school type of animation over the KyoAni one.I don´t need an anime to be perfectly pretty and on model if that means artistic identity will be sacrificed.I care more about an anime that looks unique,original and fun as opposed to something that´s conventionally pretty.If i wanted to stare at pretty moving pictures i can just do that with an artbook lol.I feel like Trigger actuallly takes advantage of the medium that anime is created in,which is,you know animation,by having cool sakuga moments. |
 |
| @Pullman So you think this scene from Kobayashi-san would've looked better in Trigger-style? https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/859474716373165770/73D075739FAEA21CEE4F49A81674A3B95FE2066B/ |
| They both work well and I have favourites from both catalogues, why should I choose? Also look at Little Witch Academia 2013 and tell me what is not fluid in it! (My point - your formulation creates a bias in the poll.) |
alshuJan 22, 2020 3:10 AM
alshu said: They both work well and I have favourites from both catalogues, why should I choose? Also look at Little Witch Academia 2013 and tell me what is not fluid in it! (My point - your formulation creates a bias in the poll.) Little Witch Academia 2013 just has more in-between animation because it has movie production quality already being just one TV episode and with tons of new animators in training and lots of budget from their government thats why i said usually fluid animation is not the emphasis of Kanda School or Trigger style and lol you said in the past that you only like fluid animation though when we talked about the sakuga of Fate Grand Order Babylonia episode 8 that got some Kanada School animation in it |
deg said: @Pullman true but even Kyoto Animation got comedy anime too like Lucky Star and Nichijou and despite their wacky/cartoony character designs they still do fluid animation most of the time especially on action heavy scenes Yeah but their comedy is very different from Trigger comedy, the characters are generally very laidback and not hyperactive like they are in Trigger and I'm sure a more motivated person than me could make a 30 minute video essay on all the ways in which their approaches to comedy differ and how their animation styles play into that. And sure, sometimes KyoAni animates action, but to me their shows are not that fun to watch when they focus on that because there's more to gripping and immersive action than just fluidity. Trigger knows that while KyoAni just seems content with throwing money at action scenes to make them look 'pretty'. But 'pretty' is not always the most effective for action scenes. Kyokai no Kanata was a snoozefest despite having very fluidly animated action scenes and the scene from Kobayashi-san that the other guy linked looks nice, but it's still not an action anime and also happens to be one of KyoAni titles I liked less because it didn't play to their strengths and overall kinda lacked an identity, trying to do a bunch of different stuff at once (action, iyashikei, fanservice, yuri romance etc...) instead of their usual approach of really honing in on a few aspects and executing them to perfection. Gator said: @Pullman So you think this scene from Kobayashi-san would've looked better in Trigger-style? https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/859474716373165770/73D075739FAEA21CEE4F49A81674A3B95FE2066B/ I literally said 'these things don't exist in a vacuum' so this is a meaningless question as far as I'm concerned. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
deg said: Little Witch Academia 2013 just has more in-between animation because it has movie production quality already being just one TV episode and with tons of new animators in training and lots of budget from their government So this is the real reason behind the fluidity - not the technique/style. KyoAni has/had better production quality than Trigger. deg said: thats why i said usually fluid animation is not the emphasis of Kanda School or Trigger style Because they don't have the resources not because of style. deg said: and lol you said in the past that you only like fluid animation though when we talked about the sakuga of Fate Grand Order Babylonia episode 8 that got some Kanada School animation in it - Yes I like fluid sakuga...not only...just prefer having more of it. - So now you are calling every clunky animation "Kanada School"? As I said - bias. - F/GO not only had too little and too short good fight scenes but also an absurdly boring story...the main reason I dropped it. - Also in other words this "Kanada School" of yours worked better in Kill La Kill than in F/GO. |
| I like explosions. Explosions are cool. |
| MEA·MENTVLA·INGENS·EST |
| I don't think one is inherently better than the other, but Trigger's style is a lot more to my tastes. I still love the animation in KyoAni shows, but they're usually attached to stories or characters I find a lot less memorable for the same reason. |
| @alshu go check out Sakugabooru and look for Kai Ikarashi of Trigger that work on some action scenes on episode 8 of Fate Grand Order Babylonia, he is a new talent of the Kanada School as the sakuga community found out too and nah it just means that with more drawn frames then Kanada School can look fluid too duh i said usually Kanada School does not have fluid animation but it does not mean it will not have fluid animation, the other emphasis of Kanda School is off-model character drawings and striking poses and Yoh Yoshinari (director of Little Witch Academia) do that too so he can be considered in Kanada School its hard to talk to you since in the past you really absolutely believe that sakuga is just fluid animation rather than more of the good animation style of animators also i bet you do not have any source for your claim that Kyoto Animation have higher budget than Trigger anime shows lol EDIT: while i got info on the budget of Little Witch Academia 2013 here four studios that will each receive 38 million yen (about US$480,000) https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2012-06-06/gonzo-trigger-pierrot-madhouse-make-anime-mirai-2013 average anime budget is A typical show can cost as little as US$125,000 per episode. On occasion a very well-off production can go north of US$300,000 per episode, but that's pretty rare. https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/answerman/2015-09-08/.92622 |
degJan 22, 2020 3:53 AM
deg said: @Pullman i get what youre saying but disregarding any story or character traits/style then you do not have preference between the 2 opposite animation/sakuga style alone? i mean you cannot focus on the animation/sakuga aspect alone? Well, I did say that if I HAD to pick in a vacuum I'd pick Imaishi/Trigger. But mostly Imaishi as an individual animator, he's one of my favorites. But it really is difficult for me to decide. My two favorite animators are Hiroyuki Okiura and Shinya Ohira, and they basically sit on opposite ends of the spectrum. Okiura has a very realistic, subtle animation style focused on accurate physics and movement and proportions while Ohira is extremely stylized and exaggerated with lots of weird shapes and offmodel frames. I love animation because it has this whole spectrum of styles and they each have their time and place and picking between KyoAni and Trigger is a bit like asking me to pick between Ohira and Okiura. They both have some of my favorite animation of the medium. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Pullman said: Gator said: @Pullman So you think this scene from Kobayashi-san would've looked better in Trigger-style? https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/859474716373165770/73D075739FAEA21CEE4F49A81674A3B95FE2066B/ I literally said 'these things don't exist in a vacuum' so this is a meaningless question as far as I'm concerned. I have no idea what that sentence means, so forgive me my question. I'm surprised you don't have an opinion on that though, fair enough. |
| I prefer less fps but detailed character design with proper coloring and shading (if I need to choose between these things). So this fits into KyoAni too. Trigger tends to do the opposite (sacrificing almost all details and doing monotone coloring in exchange for animation ) and I don't really like it. I mean, it all depends on series too, but I'm not a fan of action anyway and I don't even remember liking other Trigger series than Kiznaiver. In the other hand, if I needed to pick between Trigger and Ufotable for example, I'd always take the Trigger |
rsc-plJan 22, 2020 4:39 AM
| Dub = fake crap. Always. |
| I love both studios and I think their styles perfectly complement the way they craft stories. I’d have to say that on a purely stylistic level that I like trigger a bit more |
 |
deg said: go check out Sakugabooru and look for Kai Ikarashi of Trigger that work on some action scenes on episode 8 of Fate Grand Order Babylonia, he is a new talent of the Kanada School as the sakuga community found out too - I am not reading that, only can guess that you are getting the "Kanada School" wrong. - Also I can guess it means "done cheaply and quickly but looking good". Than your poll question boils down to "Do you prefer minimalistic and abstract over rich and polished?" and the answer can be only one "It depends on the title and the interpretation.". deg said: it just means that with more drawn frames then Kanada School can look fluid too duh Than why you take that Kanada School is hereditary not fluid? deg said: its hard to talk to you since in the past you really absolutely believe that sakuga is just fluid animation rather than more of the good animation style of animators Putting words in my mouth won't auto-win this discussion tho. I never said that, I said "temporary increase of animation quality for dramatic purposes" Also I can get on the tangent that your average KyoAni show don't have a very complex scenes to animate, mainly daily life stuff like running up the stairs or wind playing with someone's hair. Only on rare occasion like in Nichijou of Full Metal Panic TSR the do more ambitious and weird stuff. deg said: also i bet you do not have any source for your claim that Kyoto Animation have higher budget than Trigger anime shows lol You tried that tactic in the F/GO topic too and it failed because I said resources not money. And when you have more in between it means that you have more resources. deg said: while i got info on the budget of Little Witch Academia 2013 here four studios that will each receive 38 million yen (about US$480,000) https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2012-06-06/gonzo-trigger-pierrot-madhouse-make-anime-mirai-2013 average anime budget is A typical show can cost as little as US$125,000 per episode. On occasion a very well-off production can go north of US$300,000 per episode, but that's pretty rare. https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/answerman/2015-09-08/.92622 So you are confirming that more fluid animation usually means more money? |
alshuJan 22, 2020 4:38 AM
deg said: @alshu meh as usual no use talking to you since you got your own definition and standards of things, you win this pointless argument but not the facts lol one anime from Trigger that have fluid animation already means they do not do Kanada School wtf I have the impression that you are hafl reading and half understanding those blogs than rushing here to show your deep knowledge. Just try to see with your eyes and think with your head. Don't take what those guys are posting at face value. You may missing some context. |
alshu said: deg said: @alshu meh as usual no use talking to you since you got your own definition and standards of things, you win this pointless argument but not the facts lol one anime from Trigger that have fluid animation already means they do not do Kanada School wtf I have the impression that you are hafl reading and half understanding those blogs and that run here to show you deep knowledge. Just try to see with your eyes and think with your head. Don't take what those guys are telling at face value. You may missing some context. oh ye those blogs says Imaishi, Yoshinari, Ikarashi, etc uses Kanada School style and they are from Trigger but nope i misunderstood that and their animation scenes do not confirm that Kanada School at all |
deg said: oh ye those blogs says Imaishi, Yoshinari, Ikarashi, etc uses Kanada School style and they are from Trigger but nope i misunderstood that Or you are missing what Kanada School means and how they are using it. |
alshu said: deg said: oh ye those blogs says Imaishi, Yoshinari, Ikarashi, etc uses Kanada School style and they are from Trigger but nope i misunderstood that Or you are missing what Kanada School means and how they are using it. ye those animation scenes they made do not confirm the meaning of Kanada School at all too wow |
deg said: ye those animation scenes they made do not confirm the meaning of Kanada School at all too wow Than I will ask again, why your poll question is suggesting that Kanada School means hereditary not fluid animation? Basically Trigger can make fluid animation with this "Kanada School" thingy - LWA 2013 is proof and maybe Promare which we still have to watch. |
alshuJan 22, 2020 4:43 AM
alshu said: deg said: ye those animation scenes they made do not confirm the meaning of Kanada School at all too wow Than I will ask again, why your poll question is suggesting that Kanada School means hereditary not fluid animation? i said usually since that is how Kanada School animators like the Trigger animators do their animation scenes usually big emphasis on usually go check out some MAD videos of Kanada School some of them have explanations on what the style means too this is probably my last reply to you here since its pointless since i bet you will say you will not bother doing that at all since you got your own definition and standards of things again alshu said: Basically Trigger can make fluid animation with this "Kanada School" thingy - LWA 2013 is proof and maybe Promare which we still have to watch. i already seen Promare it does not have fluid animation for the most part unlike the whole episode of LWA 2013 |
degJan 22, 2020 4:49 AM
deg said: i said usually And since they use it mainly for cheap/low resource TV animation this means that it's great for it...but it doesn't mean that in can't be fluid like your poll question is suggesting. And how about Trigger movies vs KyoAni movies? deg said: i bet you will say you will not bother doing that You never bothered to change the poll question too. Just read it! It sounds like "Do you prefer raw or refined?" even without knowing who Trigger and KyoAni are. deg said: at all since you got your own definition and standards of things again Which standards and definitions I changed this time? Just curious. |
| @alshu meh how can you be so skeptical of Kanada School when you do not know what the hell is it? you do not even want to do your own research and link me to a better reliable source that defines it better than what i learned? lol give me a break already and stop replying with none sense for the sake of being skeptical |
I am not sceptical. I just commenting on you implying stuff about it that sound illogical. deg said: you do not even want to do your own research and link me to a better reliable source that defines it better than what i learned? Why doing your job instead of you? deg said: stop replying Not until you change the question or at least admit it's biased. |
alshu said: I am not sceptical. I just comment on you implying stuff about it that sound illogical. deg said: you do not even want to do your own research and link me to a better reliable source that defines it better than what i learned? Why doing your job instead of you? deg said: stop replying Not until you change the question or at least admit it's biased. here quick google im only replying to you for the sake of people reading this thread particularly the last posts The Kanada School The concept can be a hard one to define, but if the Telecom school would favor a more stable form, even frame rates and realistic treatment of weight and effects, the Kanada school would favor deformation, unusual frame rates and flashy, geometric effects liberally used. Obviously not every animator is going to have the same approach, as everyone is an individual and an aggregation of influences - many seemingly Kaneda-school animators were just as influenced by Kazuhide Tomonaga, to say nothing of the plethora of other animation out there in the world - and the style has infiltrated the vocabulary of anime to such a degree that almost everyone could be called a Kaneda-school animator to an extent. You can see Kaneda touches almost everywhere now. An upside to the overproliferation of programs right now is that the sheer volume seems to give young animators room to play a little, and there are still people appearing on the scene who seem to be carrying on that playful spirit. http://www.pelleas.net/aniTOP/index.php/the_kanada_school |
| I love both, but I think I appreciate fluid type more. Mostly fluid type from Production I.G school that they have been honing since Patlabor and Ghost in the Shell days. |
| Kyoto Animation without any doubt !!! 100% sure :D |
 |
Pfff and I said something against that? Like where is the non-fluid part? deg said: and the style has infiltrated the vocabulary of anime to such a degree that almost everyone could be called a Kaneda-school animator to an extent And I totally remember KyoAni doing stuff described here in some scenes too. Apparently they switch styles depending on the situation. Now read the title of your own topic, identify the bias and remove it...or not...I don't really care. |
alshu said: Pfff and I said something against that? Like where is the non-fluid part? deg said: and the style has infiltrated the vocabulary of anime to such a degree that almost everyone could be called a Kaneda-school animator to an extent And I totally remember KyoAni doing stuff described here in some scenes too. Now read the title of your own topic, identify the bias and remove it...or not...I don't really care. the blogger mention stable/even frame rates vs the Kanada School which is unusual frame rates and other sakuga experts said its synonymous to none fluid animation and it shows on the examples of Imaishi animation scenes alone read the whole paragraph since you are out of context on what you are quoting plus it says to an extent but there are animators today that can be describe with those animation style alone like the main Trigger animators |
deg said: the blogger mention stable/even frame rates vs the Kanada School which is unusual frame rates Which doesn't mean non-fluid animation. You can even get better fluidity with changing frame rate. deg said: other sakuga experts said its synonymous to none fluid animation OK, I guess they use it in a negative sense...but KyoAni are also doing it. deg said: and it shows on the examples of Imaishi animation scenes alone Which doesn't mean that all his projects are choppy. Like look at his Gainax projects. deg said: read the whole paragraph since you are out of context on what you are quoting plus it says to an extent but there are animators today that can be describe with those animation style alone like the main Trigger animators - What was out of context? Next it says "You can see Kaneda touches almost everywhere now." thus everybody is using some aspects of this. - Nothing about Trigger in your quote. |
alshuJan 22, 2020 6:20 AM
| @alshu look at examples of Imaishis animation and tell me if most of them have fluid animation then Sakuga pt.4 - Hiroyuki Imaishi: Kanada-School to the Max https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQrvmNz6STE now give examples of Kanada School animation from Kyoto Animation but even if you find one does it define most of their anime work? lol wtf again the Trigger main animators do Kanada School heavily if not always and it shows on their anime works the problem with your thinking is you are looking for outliers or exceptions to the rule |
| Overall, I think Kanada school has a higher ceiling, but a lower floor. Fluid animation is usually consistent in quality and I find myself liking most kyoani shows about the same. But I absolutely love Gurren Lagann and Kill la Kill especially for their insane animation but despise Panty and Stocking and Re:Cutie Honey for their animation despite being very similar. Overall, if done at its best, Kanada style is superior, but it is a coin flip whether I will like it more than fluid animation. |
| Hunter x Hunter is a 1/10 |
deg said: look at examples of Imaishis animation and tell me if most of them have fluid animation then I can totally cherry pick stuff that is better than any KyoAni...I guess. deg said: Sakuga pt.4 - Hiroyuki Imaishi: Kanada-School to the Max Can't watch this now. Not from this PC. I guess someone cherry picked them for you. deg said: now give examples of Kanada School animation from Kyoto Animation So I should go trough their whole catalogue, cut the scenes, compile a video and upload it to YT...naaah. I think I saw some examples in Dragon Maid and Nichijou and those scenes were totally fluid without "Telecom's" help. deg said: but even if you find one does it define most of their anime work? Do you think the people answering your poll will be familiar with their entire work? No, they will see only (fluid animation) and will react. "Of course I prefer more fluid animation!". deg said: again the Trigger main animators do Kanada School heavily if not always and it shows on their anime works Also their projects are not that glossy and refined for economical reasons not because you can't do good stuff with the "Kanada School" MacGuffin...no matter what professionals immediately think about shows done with it. deg said: the problem with your thinking is you are looking for outliers or exceptions to the rule Or maybe your are generalizing a bit too much? Anyway reformulating your poll question can avoid such confusing: - By removing Kanada School and fluid: now need to educated us about animator jargon. - Or by removing the names of studios. |
| @alshu lol you cannot even give one example of Kanada School from Kyoto Animation then while i given you a whole video about Imaishi and Kanada School that has example animation form Imaishi too im sharing what i learned here thats all but if you got better knowledge to say with more reliable sources then post them because you have none of those things so far this whole debate with you is so useless im out unless you give better reply |
But I gave you...whatever. And your examples are borrowed from some else...you are the pride of the sakuga society. deg said: im sharing what i learned here thats all but if you got better knowledge And it took me about 10 post to squeeze from you more than "Trigger = trash, KyoAni = best" and you are still uncomfortable with the fact that Kanada School can be used for fluid animation too. deg said: to say with more reliable sources then post them because you have none of those things so far Kind of slow at quoting them tho. - Am I asking too much for editing a bit the poll question? - Am I going against what Kanada School is? Only against your interpretaion what it is used for. |
alshu said: - Am I asking too much for editing a bit the poll question? - Am I going against what Kanada School is? Only against your interpretaion what it is used for. you want me to make the question which do you prefer none fluid animation or fluid animation obviously people will choose fluid animation easily wtf thats why im pointing out there is a sakuga animation style that do not always emphasize on fluid animation and that is Kanada School now give reliable sources to your claim like Kyoto Animation have better budget thats why they have more fluid animation most of the time you really like to focus on outliers lol so let me ask you do Kyoto Animation anime usually have fluid animation? yes right? do Trigger Studio anime usually have none fluid animation? yes but then why people still love their animation in particular then? its because of the Kanada School they do |
deg said: you want me to make the question which do you prefer none fluid animation or fluid animation obviously people will choose fluid animation easily Your current question is exactly that. I proposed two options: - Leave only the studios. - You can reformulate in the vain of "Classic fixed framerate animation vs variable rate compensating with creatively drawn frames and dynamic storyboarding?" deg said: now give reliable sources to your claim like Kyoto Animation have better budget thats why they have more fluid animation most of the time Now give reliable sources they don't...I am joking. For the N-th time dude! I don't talk about money. Just having more in betweeners means that the studio has more resources. Like has more animators, gives them more time, works on few projects, whatever...I don't know and I don't care but it's a fact that their project look more labour-consuming. deg said: do Kyoto Animation anime usually have fluid animation? yes right? From what I remember - yes. deg said: do Trigger Studio anime usually have none fluid animation? They are better than some other studios tho, I can say better than average. Also they usually animate some very complex scenes so it's a bit unfair comparison. deg said: yes but then why people still love their animation in particular then? Because people are remembering the continuity of those scenes - thus the storyboarding decisions, not the actual animation. Also see "they usually animate some very complex scenes" thus something to be remembered not a girl running down the stairs with a mixer in her hands. deg said: its because of the Kanada School they do And above I guessed that it should be something "done cheaply and quickly but looking good" and you disagree... |
alshuJan 22, 2020 7:52 AM
| @alshu err nah see i usually see comments that Trigger Studio animation is cheap or not fluid thats why im sharing what i know why its like that >I don't know and I don't care but it's a fact that their project look more labour-consuming. lol paraphrasing that is like this im not saying they have bigger budget but they are labor consuming, do you even know that Kyoto Animation does not overwork their animators? Kyoto Animation is known for decent wages and no overworking of their staff, Kyoto Animation is an ideal anime studio and you do not care ok then people here should not care about your posts then since you got no reliable information to share at all |
Maybe they are automatically comparing it to what Gainax used to be? And I admit SSSS.Gridman was trash...at least from my point of view - clunky 3D animation, non-existent 2D animation. deg said: do you even know that Kyoto Animation does not overwork their animators? Yes I know and I am not saying anything against it - even suggested that they give them more time and schedule less projects. deg said: Kyoto Animation is known for decent wages and no overworking of their staff, Kyoto Animation is an ideal anime studio Tragedy aside I stopped liking their shows lately - even dropped Dragon Maind after 9 episodes and Violet Evergarden after two. deg said: and you do not care ok This has nothing to do with out discussion. They get quality - who cares how? deg said: then people here should not care about your posts They don't anyway. deg said: since you got no reliable information to share at all And you giving somehow unrelatable interpretation of such information are better? |
alshuJan 22, 2020 10:01 AM
| The passion Kyoto Animation pour in their refined art, fluid animation and above all, selection of keyframes is incredible. I saw some video clips of their animators working on Violet Evergarden and my admiration for them only grew exponentially since then. Trigger doesn't even come close. I used to consider SHAFT being pretty close to Kyoto Animation but not anymore. Kyoto Animation is a benchmark that other studios should aspire to reach. There is no competition. |
| Stay Home and Wash Your Hands. Protect Yourself. Protect Your Loved Ones. Protect Your Community and Help Defeat Coronavirus. |
| Trigger is cool and I like their works...but I prefer the eye candy of KyoAni. :D Their shows are just beautiful! |
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