Yudina said: Zeroflamez said: I don't know what you mean by timeless. Our understanding of anime and art in general is always shifting, sometimes dramatically, and can be influenced by many things. In mediums much older than anime, new readings of old authors or filmmakers come out every year. New works put out by the author can recontextualize previous works, dramatic changes in social dynamics, structures, and just any kind of major historical events can shape the cultural zeitgeist in one direction or the other and influence our perceptions. Many masterpieces that we viewed today were not treated that way in the past, so even to make the claim that masterpieces are timeless is simply an ahistorical narrative. Even the designation of "masterpiece" is a relatively modern phenomenon, only really a concept we've adopted at the end of the 16th century.I don't understand what you mean by "Hasn't aged well". In my opinion the only thing that can actually not age well in Anime is the art and even that's subjective. Everything else in Anime is timeless in my opinion. Not even the people making anime would agree with the assessment that their anime are timeless. Just look at Makoto Shinkai. His second to most recent movie, Your Name, has an ending that is a complete refrain and reassessment of one of his prior movies, Five Centimeters per Second. The meaning is about as explicit as you will get from a director that they have reassessed their opinions on the kinds of movies they have made in the past, discarding them for something new. Yeah, the perceptions of people change, as well as opinions when it comes to fiction of any kind. That doesn't mean the Anime has aged. That means the persons beliefs, values, opinions and perceptions have aged. |
ZeroflamezDec 15, 2019 1:04 PM
Zeroflamez said: Society is not the equivalent of persons, and if society ages, so too does all of the material culture that rests within it; television shows, books, anime, etc. You can't reasonably extricate a piece of art from its material and historical conditions while applying a different standard to everything else that surrounds it. Doing so falls back on the weird idolatry with respect to art that is borne out of naivete and poor reading.Yeah, the perceptions of people change, as well as opinions when it comes to fiction of any kind. That doesn't mean the Anime has aged. That means the persons beliefs, values, opinions and perceptions have aged. Outside of the very obvious example of physical art degrading with the passage of time, new releases of an old anime with updated visual fidelity, updated editions of manuscripts and texts, numerous works of fiction change depending on period, new information, fresh eyes, and this has happened for years. The very fact that these things have to be updated demonstrably proves that people believe the product to be "old" and "aged," and thus needs a new sheen or veneer of contemporary aesthetics to please its audience. This doesn't even go into all of the major thematic/symbolic notions that wear over time or become disproven. And by the way, perception changes by people is proof of the age of a particular piece of art. Art that go through sweeping changes in public opinion are the ones that age the most, because they have borne the social/public discourse with which art is evaluated and judged. Art, in this sense, does not sit in a vacuum, but rather bears the wounds and praises of its influence/relationship with society at large. Only things that stand the test of time are "timeless," those that do not are functionally aged. |
YudinaDec 15, 2019 3:43 PM
| its not a masterpiece, but Mobile Fighter G Gundam is very good, but it aged bad, with a lot of cliché and predictable scenes that was new for the time |
TOOX said: Deep Space Nine's special effects kind of look comical at times from a 2019 lens.there are definitely masterpieces at the time that havent aged well in any medium though |
 It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
Yudina said: Zeroflamez said: Society is not the equivalent of persons, and if society ages, so too does all of the material culture that rests within it; television shows, books, anime, etc. You can't reasonably extricate a piece of art from its material and historical conditions while applying a different standard to everything else that surrounds it. Doing so falls back on the weird idolatry with respect to art that is borne out of naivete and poor reading.Yeah, the perceptions of people change, as well as opinions when it comes to fiction of any kind. That doesn't mean the Anime has aged. That means the persons beliefs, values, opinions and perceptions have aged. Outside of the very obvious example of physical art degrading with the passage of time, new releases of an old anime with updated visual fidelity, updated editions of manuscripts and texts, numerous works of fiction change depending on period, new information, fresh eyes, and this has happened for years. The very fact that these things have to be updated demonstrably proves that people believe the product to be "old" and "aged," and thus needs a new sheen or veneer of contemporary aesthetics to please its audience. This doesn't even go into all of the major thematic/symbolic notions that wear over time or become disproven. And by the way, perception changes by people is proof of the age of a particular piece of art. Art that go through sweeping changes in public opinion are the ones that age the most, because they have borne the social/public discourse with which art is evaluated and judged. Art, in this sense, does not sit in a vacuum, but rather bears the wounds and praises of its influence/relationship with society at large. Only things that stand the test of time are "timeless," those that do not are functionally aged. Perception changes do not prove the age of a piece of art. the opinions of people aren't a good indicator of much, because they can change quickly and in an instant or over time. People are what make up society, and people are not a collective mind. Everyone will not have the same opinions on things. A majority of people may enjoy the updated version. Many other people may not as well. Something that is deemed "age" by society does not mean the society as a whole shares this same sentiment. Others may relate more to the previous version or enjoy it more than the re visioned version. People's opinions are always changing on what's "aged" and what isn't. Of course information in Anime can become out dated like Historical and Scientific Information of older works but everything else is subjective. |
Yudina said: I pretty much disagree with almost all you say, and that's easy because you don't back anything up with examples or rationales. Necromancer and Hikkis, well, mid-value art. But Riefenstahl? Her camera work and scene construction are among the most influential in cinematic history, look no further than Star Wars to see her legacy. "Riefenstahl esthetics" became a trope, rightfully so. Does it matter that movies such as Triumph des Willens, Das Blaue Licht, and Olympia were funded as nazi propaganda and especially Triumph is pretty much one big Fuehrer show? No. You confuse the things pictured with the way they are pictured. The very fact we discuss her work 90 years later still shows the relevance, and that they aged damn well. Actually, I hardly can think of many movies which aged better.Riefenstahl's films which served as propaganda for Germany certainly do not age well (...) art lives in a public space and is therefore subject to change over time as society and understanding of art changes. |
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deg said: What you said isn’t even about Devilman aging poorly it’s just a statement on the industry and the community as a whole in the last few years. Devilman is still just as good as it was last Winter. Devilman Crybaby comes to mind but its just the nature of fast pace and overproduction of new entertainment now a days, fans can barely remember the old shows from last season even lol just because there is new anime to watch like every 3-4 months |
inim said: I'm not sure how you can say I don't have examples when you list multiple ones that I used. And for the record, your labeling of them as "mid-value" art belies the truth of age. Maybe you just don't know your science fiction history? Neuromancer swept the science fiction awards in the year that it was released, winning the PKD/Hugo/Nebula, essentially the first to do so. Classics of science fiction like Dune don't have that kind of resume, yet Dune has aged significantly better than Neuromancer whereas the cyberpunk genre that Neuromancer belonged to diminished in the years afterwards as none of their concerns really came to light. I pretty much disagree with almost all you say, and that's easy because you don't back anything up with examples or rationales. Necromancer and Hikkis, well, mid-value art. But Riefenstahl? Her camera work and scene construction are among the most influential in cinematic history, look no further than Star Wars to see her legacy. "Riefenstahl esthetics" became a trope, rightfully so. Does it matter that movies such as Triumph des Willens, Das Blaue Licht, and Olympia were funded as nazi propaganda and especially Triumph is pretty much one big Fuehrer show? No. You confuse the things pictured with the way they are pictured. The very fact we discuss her work 90 years later still shows the relevance, and that they aged damn well. Actually, I hardly can think of many movies which aged better. Anyway, I used relatively easier examples because I don't think anyone really needs to hear about Melville and Schubert on this board. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Sue me. I'm also not certain what really needs to be backed up when I say that art lives in a public space. Maybe just read theory? Iono. I don't doubt that Riefensthal's aesthetics and technical abilities are still held in high regard, but my point is that age has numerous dimensions and is not limited to simply formal characteristics. Hence why I said "we are not talking about age in this sense as some material condition." The idea that we discuss something today even though it was "90 years ago" is also pretty silly, because we discuss plenty of things that are aged and much older but still maintain some relevance. Just because something has aged doesn't mean it's no longer significant or valuable, simply that it addresses things that have not come to pass or are simply out of vogue. e: Maybe in film history it's long, but I think in many ways the idea that ninety years is a long time is just a phenomenon of cinematic history. I'm also not convinced by the idea that people having an influence really contributes to whether or not they're aged, or good for that matter. Half of the great German/Austrian writers (Hesse, Mann, Kafka) all praised Robert Walser as an influence in their writing. Walser sucks. His works also do not hold up in the same way the people he's influenced has. Anyway, there are also plenty of times people find themselves outdone on a formal level. I love Mahler, and his works are amazing, but certainly many of his influences appear less formidable today, be it his influence or otherwise. The famous Mahler orchestrations of Beethoven for instance are incredibly aged, least because their sounds and effects are dramatically unnoticeable compared to with regular recordings today. inim said: I don't think so. Just because something that's "pictured" stays the same doesn't mean that it doesn't wear with time and most of the time, it does. You seem overly concerned with the idea that something that ages loses value, but that's not even necessarily the case. You confuse the things pictured with the way they are pictured. Translations are the perfect example of this. A lot of the older translations, especially of epic poems, were done with whatever poetic styles were popular at the time. That's why even though the source material didn't rhyme, Alexander Pope used heroic couplets and iambic pentameter for the Homeric poems. We know now today that such a translation, even though it's still valuable, is relatively dated. The original Greek simply doesn't have that kind of meter. The translation itself has not changed, Pope is long gone, and it may not even be outclassed by some contemporary translations, but it is dated with the mark of the English poetry tradition of Pope's time. |
YudinaDec 16, 2019 9:01 AM
Zeroflamez said: You make it sound like everyone needs to agree that something has aged in order for it to be aged, which is ridiculous. Age has always been a construct and the line between old, middle aged, infertile, elderly, so on and so forth has been different to different people and different time periods. That doesn't stop people from acknowledging that the concept exists.Perception changes do not prove the age of a piece of art. the opinions of people aren't a good indicator of much, because they can change quickly and in an instant or over time. People are what make up society, and people are not a collective mind. Everyone will not have the same opinions on things. A majority of people may enjoy the updated version. Many other people may not as well. Something that is deemed "age" by society does not mean the society as a whole shares this same sentiment. Others may relate more to the previous version or enjoy it more than the re visioned version. People's opinions are always changing on what's "aged" and what isn't. Of course information in Anime can become out dated like Historical and Scientific Information of older works but everything else is subjective. And yes, things do become "aged" or "new" depending on context and new periods. I'm not really sure what's so hard to get about art having dynamic periods of rebirth and fame coupled with decline and obscurity. Plenty of artists were completely discredited at the time of their lives, heralded as masters years later, and vice versa. |
YudinaDec 16, 2019 7:54 AM
Yudina said: Zeroflamez said: You make it sound like everyone needs to agree that something has aged in order for it to be aged, which is ridiculous. Age has always been a construct and the line between old, middle aged, infertile, elderly, so on and so forth has been different to different people and different time periods. That doesn't stop people from acknowledging that the concept exists.Perception changes do not prove the age of a piece of art. the opinions of people aren't a good indicator of much, because they can change quickly and in an instant or over time. People are what make up society, and people are not a collective mind. Everyone will not have the same opinions on things. A majority of people may enjoy the updated version. Many other people may not as well. Something that is deemed "age" by society does not mean the society as a whole shares this same sentiment. Others may relate more to the previous version or enjoy it more than the re visioned version. People's opinions are always changing on what's "aged" and what isn't. Of course information in Anime can become out dated like Historical and Scientific Information of older works but everything else is subjective. And yes, things do become "aged" or "new" depending on context and new periods. I'm not really sure what's so hard to get about art having dynamic periods of rebirth and fame coupled with decline and obscurity. Plenty of artists were completely discredited at the time of their lives, heralded as masters years later, and vice versa. It's still all perceptive. The artist got credited later on was because people years later had seen something in it that the public could not years ago. Their art is still physically the same, nothing changed about it. People's perceptions and opinions on things are always changing. That's why I can't agree with art itself aging. It can objectively age(date of creation) but to say the content itself aged is completely subjective and is perceptive to the individual. People are always finding new things within old works that others deem as aged. |
Zeroflamez said: That isn't really true. Not all art stays physically the same and content is changed to re-release for modern audiences. Again, just look at re-releases of older shows in anime, BD versions after decades, so on and so forth. Literature is a better example of this, since it is often the case that works of literature do not have a definitive version. And again, translations often show considerable aging as we better understand language, uncover new information, so on and so forth. Music is this case as well, since composers may have multiple versions of the same score. Rachmaninoff, Beethoven, and many others composers for concertos have different cadenzas depending on performance. Which one is the original? The first one? The last? It's still all perceptive. The artist got credited later on was because people years later had seen something in it that the public could not years ago. Their art is still physically the same, nothing changed about it. People's perceptions and opinions on things are always changing. That's why I can't agree with art itself aging. It can objectively age(date of creation) but to say the content itself aged is completely subjective and is perceptive to the individual. People are always finding new things within old works that others deem as aged. Your point would really only hold merit if there was one objective version of the original and we could perfect understand the intent of the author, but neither of those are true. The art in and of itself is not a timeless artifact. By your logic, we would have to argue that all art is timeless, which would be preposterous. It would defeat the purpose of delineating between classics and period pieces, because there'd be nothing separating art works that survive contemporaneously and pieces that remain in the context of its historical moment. There's something valuable and important about works that age; I think people are way too naive to simply say the art "never ages" simply because the contents have never changed. It conflates the notion of content and meaning as the same. Age has little to do with content. Again, you seem to be under the impression that when people talk about a work of art as "aged," it has some kind of objective meaning. That just isn't really the case. You're repurposing how people are using aging and essentially inventing an impossible strawman to defend against. e: It's also worth mentioning that by your logic, we should never be allowed to say that a work is novel for its time. Beethoven's Grosse Fuge would be "timeless" and the fact that the score never changed, it could not have possibly been a revolutionary piece of music. Words that we use to describe aesthetic achievements are often couched, often subconsciously, with notions of time. If we rob ourselves of the usage of time as a metric with which to measure art, we really remove an entire dimension from the picture. |
YudinaDec 16, 2019 12:50 PM
Yudina said: You confuse rapid name dropping with examples. There was no example actually dealing with Riefenstahl on a content basis, just more unrelated stuff I again partly disagree with. Neither Hesse, Mann, Kafka, Walser, Beethoven, Pope, Mahler, Melville, nor Schubert matter here. Just bragging with your education isn't helping your point. You can drop red herringsnames faster than I can deal with them, so I deal with none. Also please note that I'm a middle aged German, so discussing Pope isn't getting you anywhere. And having read several works of Hesse, Mann, Kafka, and Walser in the original, I could have you for breakfast w/r to German literature.inim said: I'm not sure how you can say I don't have examples when you list multiple ones that I used.I pretty much disagree with almost all you say, and that's easy because you don't back anything up with examples or rationales. Riefenstahl didn't just age well because of her undeniable impact on cinematic history and techniques. I happen to have watched dozens of propaganda flicks from many nations, it's a hobby of mine. Her's still work today. The other point is it's getting nowhere to reduce her to propaganda, movies like Tiefland and Das Blaue Licht aren't even from that genre. And Olympia, which I consider her best work, was an internationally marketed smash hit in it's day. And while it has short scenes showing Adolf Hitler, who as head of state and government had a proper role in the opening/closing ceremonies, those few minutes could easily be cut without losing anything. That is actually part of the genius of her propaganda. Just watch a few Riefenstahl films, and you may agree. Or not. "Aged well" is an expression of individual taste just like any other subjective expression of like and dislike. Second, many individual aspects lead to the individual assesment of "aged well". See my discussion of Barefoot Gen, which for me stands as the best expression of the 1980s anti-nuclear arms race movement (I was part of) in movie. My own social and personal history determines my take, as I don't primarily see it as a movie about Hiroshima. The other thing is the current time, figure there was a revival of some music style. Immediately old songs in that style would grow in popularity. So not only the time of creation and age/taste of the viewer play a role, also the instance something is looked at again. Fun example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP88FUL7d_8 I'll leave it here, to avoid being bombarded by more name dropping. Summary: "Aged well" is just an opinion about a work of art like any other, pretending objectivity is the same blunder as with other opinions about art. |
inimDec 17, 2019 1:54 AM
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inim said: Except the Neuromancer example is extremely pertinent. You just wrote it off because you don't like it, or perhaps have nothing of value to say, but the very era that you profess to have grown up in the latter part of your post was the same era that held it with high esteem, and the era you live in now has found it wanting. It's not my fault if you didn't understand the example, but don't accuse me of name dropping just because you don't know the context of it.You confuse rapid name dropping with examples. inim said: I find it funny that people who state they read the original think they just naturally have an advantage in literary discussion, but given that you don't really answer the actual relevant point of influence that you you yourself discuss, I highly doubt you'd have much to offer. You being a middle age German doesn't naturally make you well read on Mann, Hesse, and Kafka. And if you were going to eat me alive for saying Walser's influence did little to show he was a good author, you'd have done it by now. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯Also please note that I'm a middle aged German, so discussing Pope isn't getting you anywhere. And having read several works of Hesse, Mann, Kafka, and Walser in the original, I could have you for breakfast w/r to German literature. inim said: That's fine. All I care about is to establish that the concept exists. Whether you think it's objective or not is not really of any concern to me.I'll leave it here, to avoid being bombarded by more name dropping. Summary: "Aged well" is just an opinion about a work of art like any other, pretending objectivity is the same blunder as with other opinions about art. I'm not interested in responding to your other points, namely about films, because they're all driven by much deeper personal experiences that I'm not privy to. They're takes. They seem fine. You've also already expressed that you think age is an expression of taste which, again, is fine. I was never in this thread to discuss some "objective" metric of taste and age, but merely that it exists as a defensible concept. Whether it's social or individual doesn't negate that it's a thing. That's something you and some other person have hefted on me out of some misunderstanding/misreading. Before you keep calling things you can't really discuss red herrings, maybe you should next time figure out what it is I'm trying to say next time. Just a thought. Ciao. |
YudinaDec 17, 2019 4:45 AM
Yudina said: The part you don't get is that I will not react to your pretentious name dropping. None of it has anything to do with the subject discussed (anime aging well or not). It's just part of your thought process, in which I'm not interested. Only in what it produces on the discussed subject - which was pretty much nothing.inim said: Except the Neuromancer example is extremely pertinent. (...) Walser's influence did little to show he was a good author (more unrelated stuff cut)You confuse rapid name dropping with examples. Yudina said: It's not my job to interpret your circumlocutory thought process to be "allowed" to answer.maybe you should next time figure out what it is I'm trying to say next time. |
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inim said: The part that you don't get was that I compared Neuromancer with Serial Experiments Lain, and Welcome to the N.H.K in the post you quoted, both of which you hand waved away, again, as "mid-value" art. But you picked out Riefhenstahl because it was something you actually had something to say about it. Which, is fine, people have more hobbies than just anime.The part you don't get is that I will not react to your pretentious name dropping. None of it has anything to do with the subject discussed (anime aging well or not). It's just part of your thought process, in which I'm not interested. Only in what it produces on the discussed subject - which was pretty much nothing. But don't try to hide behind the fact that you walked into a conversation misunderstanding something and then accuse me of not staying topical when my original post is much more vastly concerned with anime than whatever you're accusing me of. You wanted to broaden the scope of discussion outside of anime, not me. Again, it's fine to admit you just didn't have anything of merit to say. It's not a crime. Don't hide behind your teutonic heritage to mask the fact you can't discuss literary topics that are out of your comfort zone. inim said: Ok boomer.It's not my job to interpret your circumlocutory thought process to be "allowed" to answer. |
Yudina said: That desperately out of arguments? Anyway, close, no cigar. I'm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Xinim said: Ok boomer.It's not my job to interpret your circumlocutory thought process to be "allowed" to answer. |
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| I feel like the joke I had already made in this thread was just ripped out from under me I knew it was a bad idea to cave to the demands and rework it to be technically correct |
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Manaban said: Oh shit you already said it lmfao I'm so sorry.I feel like the joke I had already made in this thread was just ripped out from under me I knew it was a bad idea to cave to the demands and rework it to be technically correct inim said: I mean the real irony is that you once again ignore the actual meat of the post, but I guess the state of glorious teutonic culture in a post-Riefenstahl world is useless pedantry to mask the intellectual vacuum within. ;[That desperately out of arguments? Anyway, close, no cigar. I'm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_X Long live Beethoven. ;_; |
YudinaDec 17, 2019 7:30 AM
Yudina said: Again it's not my job to reply to all parts of a convoluted braindump. If you don't want parts of it commented, why you write them first hand?I mean the real irony is that you once again ignore the actual meat of the post |
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inim said: If you think me just talking about how art ages in a historical/social context is a brain dump then maybe all that reading of German literature that you said you'd eat me for breakfast with didn't actually do anything for you lolAgain it's not my job to reply to all parts of a convoluted braindump. If you don't want parts of it commented, why you write them first hand? And you literally said I veered off course and talked about non-anime topics, but the vast majority of my posts up until you showed up referenced anime as examples. You could have picked out any of them to discuss, but you were the one who decided to go with the propagandist that you watch with a heated passion. Who's the one throwing around red herrings now? |
| I feel like a masterpiece should be timeless hence the name classic. There definitely are some anime that were regarded as outstanding or even a masterpiece in its prime but if it can't bear the wheels of time it isn't really a true masterpiece |
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