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#1
Dec 7, 2019 12:34 PM
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When I say manly, I mean in terms of character and ideals, not only physique. I hate pushovers. For example all the main characters from Jojo part 5 are 120% REAL MEN through their actions!

Personally I love them! Lot's of fun to watch some MANIME from time to time. I see them as an ideal to which to strive rather than an offensive portrayal of toxic masculinity. But... it seems most nowadays don't... what do you think? Why are people offended by cool characters?
 
#2
Dec 7, 2019 12:39 PM

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I like strong characters, whether they be male or female. Those are the types of characters that end up at or near the top of my most liked characters of the cast of a show.
 
#3
Dec 7, 2019 12:41 PM

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manly anime characters are a pleasure to watch no homo. no clue why someone might dislike them.
AnimeFreak-San said:
is this a male gender issure...human issue...mental illness perhaps?
 
#4
Dec 7, 2019 12:45 PM

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I like for my anime guys to be a bit more feminine,after all too much testosterone can be bad for you!
 
#5
Dec 7, 2019 12:51 PM
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Missaliensan said:
I like for my anime guys to be a bit more feminine,after all too much testosterone can be bad for you!

I don't mind the look. That is why I gave Jojo part 5 as an example. All the male characters there look like women but are the manliest characters in all of fiction, probably. I wouldn't mind a feminine look actually, it will be more interesting. It is the actions that matter and the way they carry themselves at the end of the day.
 
#6
Dec 7, 2019 12:52 PM

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I like masculine characters. Good role models for boys.
I really enjoy those "helicopter ride" memes
 
#7
Dec 7, 2019 1:21 PM

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Nope, in fact harem anime are in desperate need of them.


 
#8
Dec 7, 2019 1:31 PM

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Nah, they're often pretty cool

Just look as JoJo's characters, pure manliness
And then, God missed a step of his stairs
 
#9
Dec 7, 2019 1:34 PM

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nah dude i love them, i don’t think it’s toxic masculinity if it’s just a character who’s just STRONG and “MANLY”, there’s also male characters who aren’t and they can be just as good and just as much as a man as everyone else.

besides it’s impossible for my manlet self to even try achieving peak form like that why even stress getting offended about it
 
Dec 7, 2019 1:56 PM

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I wouldn't say manly characters are inherently toxic, no one really thinks that. It's more about how you portray that masculinity. Sometimes it can be in a positive way, sometimes in a negative, toxic way. JoJo is actually a pretty good example because most of the villains in that series fall into what I think of as toxic masculinity, whereas the heroes show a much more positive interpretation.

I don't think there's anything wrong with manliness inherently, as long as it's not getting in the way of your empathy.
 
Dec 7, 2019 1:58 PM

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I think they can be very funny and lift the mood sometimes, while on the other hand they can be inspiring or intimidating, and both are great!Love me some fair manly dudes from time to time lol
 
Dec 7, 2019 2:11 PM
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I can get behind a manly character. Though a manly character as a protagonist isn't something I'm itching for in my anime.
 
Dec 7, 2019 2:21 PM

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Manly men are the best, there is no comparison



 
Dec 7, 2019 2:25 PM

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Honestly i like the character to fit the story. Id hate a extremely manly male love interest in kimi ni todoke for example.

In the end everything in anime is just fantasy. Your waifus/husbandos arent real. Nothing mathers its entertainment and escapism. This is why mixing politics and anime is just so sad and pointless.
 
Dec 7, 2019 2:29 PM

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AkaneManiac said:
For example all the main characters from Jojo part 5 are 120% REAL MEN through their actions!


I agree, Trish is the manliest man out there
Everyone should read Tower of God.
 
Dec 7, 2019 2:36 PM

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As a left-wing soyboi who voted for both Trudeau and Obama at the same time when they were competing for the French election. I, Hillary Rotten Clinton, am deeply offended by muscles, chivalry and the very existence of non-faggy men. Boi I'm perpetually triggered by Drumpfy, Pootin and Bolsonazi.

Did I, dare I to say, just went, full McIntoshi. Boi I sure did.
Logan Lerman is the love of my life. Someday we'll marry.
Asuna, Emilia and Zelda are the ultimate goddesses of everything that's good and pure.
Zack Fair, Mahiro Fuwa and Edward Elric are the best boys of all time.
Hagane no Renkinjutsushi is the best work of fiction ever recorded in human history.
Yuki Kajiura's music can cure and heal every disease ever known by men. Oblivious is her magnum opus.
Women are the scum of this earth, and I can assure you they're well aware of that.

One is a lie. The other ones are not. DEUS VULT!
 
Dec 7, 2019 2:42 PM

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Jokes aside. Gray Fullbuster, Zack Fair and Mahiro Fuwa are my rolemodels of masculinity.

One is the ultimate GARlord, the other one is the coolest dude in the game and the last one is never afraid to show afecfion to his bro.

Archer is meh compared to their greatness.
Logan Lerman is the love of my life. Someday we'll marry.
Asuna, Emilia and Zelda are the ultimate goddesses of everything that's good and pure.
Zack Fair, Mahiro Fuwa and Edward Elric are the best boys of all time.
Hagane no Renkinjutsushi is the best work of fiction ever recorded in human history.
Yuki Kajiura's music can cure and heal every disease ever known by men. Oblivious is her magnum opus.
Women are the scum of this earth, and I can assure you they're well aware of that.

One is a lie. The other ones are not. DEUS VULT!
 
Dec 7, 2019 2:43 PM

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No, that sounds dumb, all the complains about "toxic" stuff sound dumb in general

 
Dec 7, 2019 2:44 PM

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Well this genre is nice. Hokuto no Ken, Jojo, Grappler Baki, all those hard boiled OVAs from 80s-90s, damn it's so cool.
I guess those who get offended by this just have some SJW issues
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Dec 7, 2019 2:46 PM

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Nah, manly looking men.., they just look stupid and remind me of American DC superheroes, but, on the other hand, I also don't like the faggy looking Anime males.

Luckily, when I play my RPGs my party always only contains skinny edgy male Elf-priest with other edgy females, and I'm fine with that.
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Dec 7, 2019 5:09 PM

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If it's comedy, it can make sense, but if it's a story to be taken seriously, I don't like the "MANLINESS" meme, particularly when taken to impractical extremes just for the sake of an elaborate display. If it's to be taken seriously, it's stupid, nor is it particularly good in real life. If anything it's just satisfying a power fantasy, or satisfying a desire to "own the SJWs" or someshit like that. Done well, it can be comedic and possibly even gratifying, but frankly it's often relegated to the role of self-parody.

Now if we're just talking about decisive characters who get shit done, then sure, everyone enjoys those, but there's nothing inherently masculine about those qualities anyway.

As for having good male role model characters in a serious narrative -- particularly good mature male role-model characters -- there should be less of a focus on hamminess (and no gratuitous aggression at all), and more of a focus on ideas of steadiness, loyalty, and mental focus.
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Dec 7, 2019 5:41 PM

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Anything in anime that is not a cute girl offends me


What's the difference?
 
Dec 7, 2019 5:49 PM

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I don’t like GAR to begin with, so....
 
Dec 7, 2019 5:55 PM
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they are not necessarily toxic masculinity though

my favorite anime is Gurren Lagann and is also about how a boy becomes a man besides the power of human spirit stuff
 
Dec 7, 2019 6:02 PM
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GlennMagusHarvey said:
If it's comedy, it can make sense, but if it's a story to be taken seriously, I don't like the "MANLINESS" meme, particularly when taken to impractical extremes just for the sake of an elaborate display. If it's to be taken seriously, it's stupid, nor is it particularly good in real life. If anything it's just satisfying a power fantasy, or satisfying a desire to "own the SJWs" or someshit like that. Done well, it can be comedic and possibly even gratifying, but frankly it's often relegated to the role of self-parody.

Now if we're just talking about decisive characters who get shit done, then sure, everyone enjoys those, but there's nothing inherently masculine about those qualities anyway.


What manliness meme? Also, in the context of the anime/manga medium, most of the characters associated with being 'manly' are older than SJW culture (including JoJo, think the manga is fairly old but I am not sure), atleast the recent prominence of SJW/PC culture. So calling these works a reaction to SJWs is fairly unwarranted.

Also, I think assertiveness is often associated with masculinity, which is something a fair amount of people will like to see more of.

Also, could you maybe elaborate on why you seem to believe that representations of masculinity is relegated to comedy? Or are you just referring to extreme cases?
 
Dec 7, 2019 7:04 PM

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No, nothing wrong with badasses, but I don't care for sausage fests or heavy shounen-ai undertones.
"I am Holo the wisewolf, I know that there are things in this world that I do not know, that is what makes me wise."
-Holo (Spice & Wolf)
 
Dec 7, 2019 7:11 PM
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I prefer them over more feminine characters, I just find them annoying
 
Dec 7, 2019 7:24 PM

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Why would they offend me? And what the hell is "toxic masculinity"? I don't understand this topic at all. lmao
 
Dec 7, 2019 7:26 PM

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I like tomboys and femme fatales, so it can actually be a turn-on in certain situations.
 
Dec 7, 2019 8:46 PM

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Nah Kamina is definitely pretty inspirational and I’d say in shows where there are questions about this, there are often either female characters who are also strong (Jojo, GL) or the traits have a purpose in the story (Berserk).
Even then out of my top five favorite (badass) characters, 4/5 are female: Revy (Black Lagoon), Balalika (Black Lagoon), The Major (Ghost in the Shell: SAC), Ryuko (Kill la Kill), and Wolfwood (Trigun). That’s not in order and there are definitely others from Code Geass and other anime and manga (Alice in Borderland) but overall I’d say it evens out pretty fairly.
 
Dec 7, 2019 8:50 PM

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No, I deeply respect Dark Schneider, man among men (except for when he cowtows to Noko).
 
Dec 7, 2019 10:35 PM

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SunnySelenophile said:
GlennMagusHarvey said:
If it's comedy, it can make sense, but if it's a story to be taken seriously, I don't like the "MANLINESS" meme, particularly when taken to impractical extremes just for the sake of an elaborate display. If it's to be taken seriously, it's stupid, nor is it particularly good in real life. If anything it's just satisfying a power fantasy, or satisfying a desire to "own the SJWs" or someshit like that. Done well, it can be comedic and possibly even gratifying, but frankly it's often relegated to the role of self-parody.

Now if we're just talking about decisive characters who get shit done, then sure, everyone enjoys those, but there's nothing inherently masculine about those qualities anyway.


What manliness meme? Also, in the context of the anime/manga medium, most of the characters associated with being 'manly' are older than SJW culture (including JoJo, think the manga is fairly old but I am not sure), atleast the recent prominence of SJW/PC culture. So calling these works a reaction to SJWs is fairly unwarranted.

Also, I think assertiveness is often associated with masculinity, which is something a fair amount of people will like to see more of.

Also, could you maybe elaborate on why you seem to believe that representations of masculinity is relegated to comedy? Or are you just referring to extreme cases?
The meme wherein "manliness"/masculinity (in a heavily stereotypical sense)/"GAR"/etc. is glorified to the point of ridiculousness. It can be fun for comedy but it can't be taken seriously.

The characters/shows that get meme status are more likely to be the extreme cases, but more generally, I find that approaching characters/shows with the mindset of "I'm here for the meme" detracts from my appreciation of the actual character/show.

Regarding the "reaction to SJWs" I was referring to how people's making a big deal about "manly" characters are better than "fags"/"pussies"/etc. is partly related to that. It's been around for longer than this latest spat (heck it's been around since people started hating on Shinji), but some people cite said spat as part of their reasoning for such a preference, hence my comment. The other part of that comment refers to the desire to have the character exhibit a strong sense of agency as a result of one's desire for how the story should go. It's a natural thing to feel, so I don't begrudge people simply for feeling it, but I also don't think that you can get as much of a variety of a stories if all you have is hypercompetent badasses getting shit done all the time.
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Dec 7, 2019 10:41 PM

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no i am offended by weak minded characters
 
Dec 8, 2019 12:34 AM

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Manly men are not as relatable as boneless jerks from all these popular bullshit ecchi/harem/romcoms. Fanboys feel uncomfortable seeing all that masculinity and generosity, thus become offended

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Dec 8, 2019 1:27 AM

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I only love manly anime characters if they have chiseled bodies I can admire and imagine squeezing.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but it's probably going to involve frogs. I freakin' hate those things."
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Dec 8, 2019 1:38 AM

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I mean kinda depends what you mean by manly actions. Like if someone says masculine anime I just think GAR.

But i guess i'm not fan in general? If i'm thinking of something that might get considered rly masculine like glorifying fighting to death for honor (Vagabond), war (Kingdom) or being overly protective.. such actions and mindsets just feel stupid to me like please have more intelligence. I don't want none of that "man must do.." "man must be.." stuff. Not that either one of these examples is bad manga, i have enjoyed both, but their characters and their actions frustrated me a lot.

Still I'm not sure if that's what you are going for with the masculinity cause i think there is many ideas of what that masculinity is.


 
Dec 8, 2019 9:04 AM
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GlennMagusHarvey said:

The meme wherein "manliness"/masculinity (in a heavily stereotypical sense)/"GAR"/etc. is glorified to the point of ridiculousness. It can be fun for comedy but it can't be taken seriously.

The characters/shows that get meme status are more likely to be the extreme cases, but more generally, I find that approaching characters/shows with the mindset of "I'm here for the meme" detracts from my appreciation of the actual character/show.

Regarding the "reaction to SJWs" I was referring to how people's making a big deal about "manly" characters are better than "fags"/"pussies"/etc. is partly related to that. It's been around for longer than this latest spat (heck it's been around since people started hating on Shinji), but some people cite said spat as part of their reasoning for such a preference, hence my comment. The other part of that comment refers to the desire to have the character exhibit a strong sense of agency as a result of one's desire for how the story should go. It's a natural thing to feel, so I don't begrudge people simply for feeling it, but I also don't think that you can get as much of a variety of a stories if all you have is hypercompetent badasses getting shit done all the time.


Thanks for the feedback. And yeah, in that context I agree. The excessive display of it is not particularly good, similar to how forced displays of any kind of politics in TV shows can be jarring. Some kind of moderation would be good, but the issue I have, and probably others like me, is that masculine traits are not often shown. Hence the reaction and preference for 'manly' because they are outnumbered massively. It doesn't help that's lots of MC's are kept blank for the purpose of self-insertion, mostly with regards to light/web novels adaptations.
 
Dec 8, 2019 9:08 AM

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I have never heard of anyone being "offended" by a character that is too cool/manly. I view manly characters as inspiring.
"You don't need a reason to live, you just live"
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Dec 8, 2019 9:14 AM

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Well, I have a staunch hatred towards masculinity in real life, so I'm not a big fan of manly guys in anime.

I prefer feminine guys, like Nao from "Free!."
 
Dec 8, 2019 9:16 AM

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AkaneManiac said:
When I say manly, I mean in terms of character and ideals, not only physique. I hate pushovers. For example all the main characters from Jojo part 5 are 120% REAL MEN through their actions!

Personally I love them! Lot's of fun to watch some MANIME from time to time. I see them as an ideal to which to strive rather than an offensive portrayal of toxic masculinity. But... it seems most nowadays don't... what do you think? Why are people offended by cool characters?
Well, I don't watch Jojo so I can't comment on them, but what exactly do you mean by "manly characters" can you give some examples of who you consider manly or some characteristics of "manliness"? The definition of manliness differs from person to person.
 
Dec 8, 2019 9:28 AM
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SithSteel said:
AkaneManiac said:
When I say manly, I mean in terms of character and ideals, not only physique. I hate pushovers. For example all the main characters from Jojo part 5 are 120% REAL MEN through their actions!

Personally I love them! Lot's of fun to watch some MANIME from time to time. I see them as an ideal to which to strive rather than an offensive portrayal of toxic masculinity. But... it seems most nowadays don't... what do you think? Why are people offended by cool characters?
Well, I don't watch Jojo so I can't comment on them, but what exactly do you mean by "manly characters" can you give some examples of who you consider manly or some characteristics of "manliness"? The definition of manliness differs from person to person.

I mean these guys:

Despite how they look they are TRUE men through their actions!
Manly, by being assertive, collected, intelligent, protecting the weak, have a code of honor, and striving for justice. Stuff like that.
 
Dec 8, 2019 9:35 AM

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SunnySelenophile said:
GlennMagusHarvey said:

The meme wherein "manliness"/masculinity (in a heavily stereotypical sense)/"GAR"/etc. is glorified to the point of ridiculousness. It can be fun for comedy but it can't be taken seriously.

The characters/shows that get meme status are more likely to be the extreme cases, but more generally, I find that approaching characters/shows with the mindset of "I'm here for the meme" detracts from my appreciation of the actual character/show.

Regarding the "reaction to SJWs" I was referring to how people's making a big deal about "manly" characters are better than "fags"/"pussies"/etc. is partly related to that. It's been around for longer than this latest spat (heck it's been around since people started hating on Shinji), but some people cite said spat as part of their reasoning for such a preference, hence my comment. The other part of that comment refers to the desire to have the character exhibit a strong sense of agency as a result of one's desire for how the story should go. It's a natural thing to feel, so I don't begrudge people simply for feeling it, but I also don't think that you can get as much of a variety of a stories if all you have is hypercompetent badasses getting shit done all the time.


Thanks for the feedback. And yeah, in that context I agree. The excessive display of it is not particularly good, similar to how forced displays of any kind of politics in TV shows can be jarring. Some kind of moderation would be good, but the issue I have, and probably others like me, is that masculine traits are not often shown. Hence the reaction and preference for 'manly' because they are outnumbered massively. It doesn't help that's lots of MC's are kept blank for the purpose of self-insertion, mostly with regards to light/web novels adaptations.
Well, particularly with regard to the harem shows, like you say they're written in a certain way arguably for a reason, likely self-insertion, but asking to replace that with a "manlier" MC is basically just asking to replace one fantasy with another, and it's not magically better or worse as some of the overblown commentary about the decline of manliness or what may suggest it is.

What exactly are you referring to by "masculine traits"? Asking since I'm aware this term is not always consistently defined, and a variety of traits sorta get variably lumped together under this one banner depending on who you talk to.

FWIW as a serious point I think it makes more sense to ask the question of how much we have good male (and for that matter, also female) role models in anime. Because if there's some "masculine" character type worth glorifying, it ought to be something like (as I said eariler) a man who is characterized by level-headedness, loyalty to a romantic partner, firm in his principles, etc. -- rather than a man with overflowing pecs who says cheesy lines and sexes all the chicks. Some people like the latter, obviously, but to demand more of the latter in the name of "we need more manliness in anime!" is really just demanding a different fantasy to replace one that a person doesn't like as much.
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Dec 8, 2019 9:42 AM

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AkaneManiac said:
When I say manly, I mean in terms of character and ideals, not only physique.
I'm not sure what exactly is supposed to be "manly" when it comes to ideals but on a general note I'm not a fan of physically bulky characters, they don't offend me in any way, I just don't find them attractive in the slightest unless they have a soft side
 
Dec 8, 2019 9:52 AM

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I'm not really a fan of classic masculinity stereotypes and all that stuff. I mean they can be fun in the right show (either those that take themselves not too seriously, or those that take themselves so seriously that it's already funny again, like Baki for example), but in general my views on gender roles and stereotypes just don't really align very much with the traditional views on masculinity so it's hard to answer the question without knowing that you define as 'manliness'.

For example, even tho it's not anime, many of my male friends hated Newt Scamander from the Harry Potter prequel 'Fantastic Beasts' for being a pussy or 'autistic' and whatnot because he's socially awkward, basically for not being manly or masculine enough in the traditional way of action-ish movies and therefore not fun to watch. But my opinion is more along the lines of this video and I really liked his character
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4kuR1gyOeQ

Or for a more anime related example I tend to like the male chars in josei and shoujo romances way more than the male chars in shounen and seinen romances. So I think it's safe to say that I generally don't really like the male stereotypes that are used to cater to male viewers. But it's all very context and execution-dependent.

Aesthetic value can be recognized or experienced, but it cannot be conveyed to those who are incapable of grasping its sensations and perceptions. To quarrel on its behalf is always a blunder.
 
Dec 8, 2019 10:20 AM

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If we are talking about male characters we admire, while I don't know how manly they are, these come to mind:

Elias Ainsworth - Mahou Tsukai no Yome
Hiko Seijuurou - Rurouni Kenshin
Blanca - Banana Fish
Saotome Zenjuuro - Beelzebub
Oda Nobunaga - Drifters
Guin - Guin Saga
Sebas Tian - Overlord
 
Dec 8, 2019 12:42 PM
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GlennMagusHarvey said:

Well, particularly with regard to the harem shows, like you say they're written in a certain way arguably for a reason, likely self-insertion, but asking to replace that with a "manlier" MC is basically just asking to replace one fantasy with another, and it's not magically better or worse as some of the overblown commentary about the decline of manliness or what may suggest it is.

What exactly are you referring to by "masculine traits"? Asking since I'm aware this term is not always consistently defined, and a variety of traits sorta get variably lumped together under this one banner depending on who you talk to.

FWIW as a serious point I think it makes more sense to ask the question of how much we have good male (and for that matter, also female) role models in anime. Because if there's some "masculine" character type worth glorifying, it ought to be something like (as I said eariler) a man who is characterized by level-headedness, loyalty to a romantic partner, firm in his principles, etc. -- rather than a man with overflowing pecs who says cheesy lines and sexes all the chicks. Some people like the latter, obviously, but to demand more of the latter in the name of "we need more manliness in anime!" is really just demanding a different fantasy to replace one that a person doesn't like as much.


Agree on most of that.

On a side point, for shounen harem characters the dense, indecisive MC is basically a trope because these series typically do not show progress towards sex (usually seen as an endgame I think, unhealthy POV but off topic), as well as to prolong the series indefinitely, providing fuel for possible shipping wars which in turn keeps the manga/anime running. So I doubt the author are thinking "Let's make this MC as unmanly as possible".

With regards to masculine traits, I agree that it is fairly vague. I would say characters traits such as assertiveness, resilience, courage, ambition can be linked to masculinity, but are in no way male exclusive. Honestly I overall agree with you on the need for better role models, both male and female. The character traits of honesty, loyalty and stability are, or should be, desirable. It's not particularly marketable though.

Thank you for the discussion, I hadn't really thought about this in depth. I think we can categorise various traits as either masculine or feminine, and understand that neither of these are intrinsically good or bad. Both men and women show varying degrees of masculinity and femininity, and it's important to accept that. I think toxic masculinity is the collective viewpoint that men must have only masculine traits and act as such (vice versa as well).
 
Dec 8, 2019 12:45 PM
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"Toxic masculinity"
For the love of God someone blow up this planet
 
Dec 8, 2019 12:53 PM

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It doesn't really matter to me. Again it just comes down to the writing someone who is a pushover can be written well. Depends on the point of the character. JoJo characters are fun so I can't say I dislike those aspects but again just because someone is written as weak willed doesn't make their character bad. So context matters.

I will say this people have this idea of a character being assertive (something that is masculine) and really confuse what makes an assertive character good. Or what is good about an assertive person IRL. I see this a lot in female characters mainly in the West where assertive basically equals being abrasive. Characters like that I really don't like either male or female unless there is a reason and the author is aware it's a bad character trait. It's kinda of unfortunate for people who are trying to make more "strong" female characters since a lot of them are not written well.

Assertive people are appealing because of their get done attitude or confidence that reassures others and ability to endure a lot of struggles by being mentally strong. So traits like stoicism, valour, selflessness are more the ideals of I guess more masculine traits.
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Dec 8, 2019 1:06 PM

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I don’t like seeing men at all ...

.
 
Dec 11, 2019 11:16 PM
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>Most nowadays

No, a very loud minority of whiny manchildren who never grew mentally past the age of 10 and get upset when they see a mentally healthy male character who embodies everything they'll never be.

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