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Poll: Hoshiai no Sora Episode 8 Discussion


Nov 29, 2:29 AM

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jd2001z said:
Really loved this episode of Hoshiai no Sora.

Honestly, I found Mitsue a bit annoying and a jerk at first, but after a few episodes I started warming up to her. I think the reason she became a cynical was because the way her mom and the people online treated her and treated what she liked (art) as a whole. She didn't like how the team was working hard and enjoying what they liked when people around her brought her down because of what she liked. At least she's warming up to the team and helping them out a bit more now.

I also loved how they went through the LGBT+ part with Maki and Yuu. I think it's really great that they know about things like that at a young age, because when I was at that age, I used to say mean things about gay and trans people when I was actually gay myself, but didn't accept it. I may have cried a bit in this part. Also, I DEFINITELY was surprised to find out the friend of Maki's mom was trans, but I didn't really care if he was or wasn't. I don't think it matters if someone was born a boy or a girl, what matters is that they know who they are and what they want to be.

They also gave us more on the other families in the team, like with Yuu. For Yuu's mom, I don't really think that it's her fault she treated Yuu that way, but I know it's definitely wrong. Society (especially in Japan) has deemed people like Yuu as not "normal," and I think this is why their mom reacted that way. Maybe if she will listen to Yuu and understand that their happiness and more important then what society says about people like them, then maybe she wouldn be more understanding.

On the other hand, for Nao's mom, I think it's her fault, but I can't say for sure. From my viewpoint, it kinda seems like she wants Nao to get a lot of good things in life so that she can also have them. She didn't look like she cared about what her son liked, but cared more about what she herself liked. I think a lot of Asian parents are like that. They try to get their children to do what they want and ban the things they wouldn't like even if the children like it, and they want society to see their children as good and wonderful things so that they will be praised as the people who raised them. Again, I can't say for sure if this is the case for Nao's mom.

All in all, this episode is one of my favourite episodes in all the anime this season, and I can't wait to see how the rest will go.


Glad that someone has nearly exact same point of view as mine.

When an anime can bring out all those deeper analysis / discussion in each of their episodes (though one may not agree with one another), you KNEW the anime is doing a really good job because it actually make people THINK for once, and try to interpret all the things happened to each characters.

Let's face it, this is actually quite a rare thing you can see in nowaday anime industry. Most of the time you'd just see a bunch of people praising how cool the battle/ animation is on one particular episode, and how x episode makes them cry because some tragedies happened to y characters.
 
Nov 29, 2:36 AM

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Hatsuyuki said:
Ventus_S said:


Beasters seems like it's going to turn into your typical love polygon drama XD. With the setting of the story, even killing and violence could happen. Certainly interesting to dive in.

Babylon animation certainly will win, for story, so far it isn't as strong and impactful.

Never watched Chihayafuru previous season before so no opinion.

As another contender of AOTS (since you include sequel), highly recommend give Kono Oto Tomare S2 a go too if you like Stars Align.
The drama is a little less realistic but the execution and resolution of each of them are sooo good. It is your typical "everything goes from super bad to so sweet" type of drama.


I watch it, I don't see what makes the drama in Kono Oto Tomare less realistic than in this show though. Especially since I've been pretty harsh on this show's drama for a few episodes now. But yes, Kono Oto Tomare is very good, I do think the production values gives it a cheap look and that might be why people would be inclined to avoid it. Will definitely pick up the manga after the anime ends though.


Not saying the issues highlighted in Kono Oto Tomare is unrealistic, but rather the "resolution" of each drama is way too idealistic that makes it unrealistic.

Don't get me wrong, I really love how a drama resolved in an ideal/ fantasy-like resolution because that's why anime exist, and we like to see good things happened to the characters we like after all the hard work they put in, but let's face it, real life isn't this easy, and we have to admit that Kono Oto Tomare took the "idealistic fantasy approach" when they come to solving intense drama. (In real life those type of stuffs don't usually end well , you can't just resolve everything through music / hard work / power of friendship alone)
 
Nov 29, 3:53 AM

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This episode felt really out of place with all that happened. The sudden idea of introducing LGBT+ and the MC having being way too thoughtfull for his age. The way the guy acted showed he didn't even want to be a girl and yet for some reason it felt like it is being forced on him to try to be like that. The "bully" part was aslo the girl being an asshole and getting punished in return. This was a meh episode tbh.
"Even if it has good reviews, if I don't like it then it is shit"

-Some random anime character
 
Nov 29, 3:55 AM
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Ysad_Ziwezhan said:


Agree. Instead of having a teenager with super power we get one with super maturity and an attitude that could put to shame many many real adults.

Even if I'm wondering wether that kind of kid would really exist (it could if you have the right parents) I'm ok with it and the thing to remember is the makers of this show really and obviously (someone said "preachy") want to send an educative message (toward kids and toward adults it seems). It's not a "turn off you brain" kind of anime and I'm, again, ok with it.



Ysad_ZiwezhaniI share your sentiment. I can see how this show may come off as preachy for some. It's quite obvious that the author voicing his/her views on varies social issue through his/her characters, especially the mains. Such educational message may be too blatant for some to enjoy the show, and I am those others who find it okay and enjoy the show nevertheless.

spicychile said:

For a 14-year old, he seems a bit too wise to be believable.


yeah, I think so too at first, but when I think about it, it may have to do with him having to take more responsibility than most of his peer at a very young age. On top of having to worry financially and taking up family chores, he may be prejudiced against for having an abusive father and being in a single parent family, which could give him the ability to sympathize easily with people suffer from social prejudice, like Itsuki and Yuuta. Just like them he is an easy target of prejudice. His tough situation must have make him think through a lot about society in general, which shows in his mature respond to Yuuta. Now I think it is not unbelievable, more so that he has a person whom he consider part of his family being transgender, Shou(if not mistaken?) probably kind of served as a window to his knowledge on gender issue and have made him do a lot of thinking i bet.
Modified by sakurayou, Nov 29, 4:09 AM
 
Nov 29, 4:03 AM

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@Ventus_S let's start a honouring spree for this show, because as an Asian, I definitely feel A HECK LOT for this show, more than it being potential AOTS for the right reasons.

Beginning the episode proper, mothers are STILL bad influences on their own children IF the Asian Stigma (I've already said this multiple times for this show) still reeks...even in school as performance OUTWEIGHS fun and activity. That's the case with Nao, now that they ONLY RECENTLY got back in track, and his mother being a complain-queen SADLY IS THE NORM if their expectations go too low. So much for parents who want the best for their children, NEGLECTING their thoughts entirely.

Yuta's idea of crossdressing and LGBTQ...WOW I didn't think we'll get to that area quite soon. It runs in his family that the children are doing such weird stuff, but all this is commonplace for Maki??? He's experienced LGBT so early in his life through his mom and the transgender man (friend of his mom) whom he CONSIDERED family. In the context of the real world, people who pose as same-sex gender and such are ridiculed to oblivion, and it's a serious issue. It's not easy living a double life, but to overcome this is just saying too lightly and being uncalled for.

WHEW, the boys are DEFINITELY SURPRISED at the transformation of Izumi and Maki, and yep, they can pass off as girls. Mitsue as a decoy, it's easy to see that she has a history of being bullied before, and taking the brunt for both guys to one-up information on their competition. But her drawing is her form of escape, and she wants to escape BEING NORMAL (I'm mean, we're all wired to be unique, WHEN did normalcy ever creep onto us when we feel we have nothing to offer?).

As a practice challenge match before more competition, the boys vs. girls, that I'm happy. WHAT SCARES ME NOW, is Yuta's mom finding out that aside from the daughters, EVEN HE finds it NORMAL to crossdress, and his mom is definitely pissed off.

The insane family drama just keeps in going...
 
Nov 29, 4:51 AM
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It's official, I love this show. Love sitting thru the op and end credits songs, first time I've done this for a show on every episode. Love the fact they talk about issues most shows would never dare, not perfectly, but they look and touch upon them. With kindness, empathy and warmth 22 minutes can allow.
 
Nov 29, 4:54 AM

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RPWPA said:
The way the guy acted showed he didn't even want to be a girl and yet for some reason it felt like it is being forced on him to try to be like that.

The whole point of the episode is that he doesn't know what he wants to be, he has some interest in it and he reads some books but didn't feel like putting himself into a particular identity - despite the "world" telling him he should. Maki tells him that it's OK.

Maki has always been wayyyy to smart of his age from the very first episode, part of it is understandable given his background (And this episode explains why he was so perceptive of LGBT stuff) forced him to "grow up" and he essentially never had a normal childhood.

He still is pretty much a borderline sue, though.
 
Nov 29, 5:04 AM

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I see straight boys getting upset again..


This time it's because of two characters discussing gender identity. Like, why do you keep doing this to yourself..?


kuroneko99 said:
His friend acknowledged he is an ESPer.

His confidence, mastery of skill, precociousness and perception level are out of this world. As if the title of the show was hinting at it all along..



On another note, what are Toma and Maki doing with a copy of NICEMENS magazine..



Hmm..


 
Nov 29, 5:26 AM
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Too much stuff happening, doesn't feel right, but if someone feels they can relate they will enjoy the episode.
Liked the scouting but a lot of stuff seemed far-fetched specially Mitsue situation, big yikes.

 
Nov 29, 5:41 AM

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At first I thought it'd be your usual dramatic sports anime. I enjoyed it a lot but this is more real than I imagined. Really love the approach and aspect the anime is taking.
 
Nov 29, 6:22 AM

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MrParadise said:
Too much stuff happening, doesn't feel right, but if someone feels they can relate they will enjoy the episode.
Liked the scouting but a lot of stuff seemed far-fetched specially Mitsue situation, big yikes.


Umm how's Mitsue's situation farfetched?

Many Asian parents has the old thinking of art / music/ school sport are useless, and you should only focus on getting good grades and get a nice certificate and makes you easier to find a "normal" job that can make lots of money without too much risk.

Can't 100% blame them too because in their age , art/ music is really not valued much (hard to get stable income, low pay, overworked), and for sport unless you have insane talent and get scouted by elite sport focus schools from early age, it's highly unlikely you can use it as your life choice career.

Modified by Ventus_S, Nov 29, 6:26 AM
 
Nov 29, 6:24 AM

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I loved that scene where Mitsue was picking out which of the boys could pass as girl..



 
Nov 29, 6:25 AM

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this_shit_again said:
I loved that scene where Mitsue was picking out which of the boys could pass as girl..





Let's be real, most of the cute boys here can dress as girl without too much issue :P
Shingou is probably the only one not suited.
 
Nov 29, 6:43 AM

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KANLen09 said:

As a practice challenge match before more competition, the boys vs. girls, that I'm happy. WHAT SCARES ME NOW, is Yuta's mom finding out that aside from the daughters, EVEN HE finds it NORMAL to crossdress, and his mom is definitely pissed off.


I feel like that rather than her being pissed off about that, she's afraid of how society would view Yuu and her because people like Yuu aren't accepted yet in society. I think it's evident in the end when she started freaking out when she saw the clothes in the bag and didn't even ask Yuu for an explanation. I hope they'll be able to talk about it in the next episode, or at least before the anime ends, and that their mom will listen and be more understanding about it.
 
Nov 29, 6:53 AM

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jd2001z said:
KANLen09 said:

As a practice challenge match before more competition, the boys vs. girls, that I'm happy. WHAT SCARES ME NOW, is Yuta's mom finding out that aside from the daughters, EVEN HE finds it NORMAL to crossdress, and his mom is definitely pissed off.


I feel like that rather than her being pissed off about that, she's afraid of how society would view Yuu and her because people like Yuu aren't accepted yet in society. I think it's evident in the end when she started freaking out when she saw the clothes in the bag and didn't even ask Yuu for an explanation. I hope they'll be able to talk about it in the next episode, or at least before the anime ends, and that their mom will listen and be more understanding about it.


Honestly most of the family issues in this show probably won't be resolved. (And the reality is it really takes ALOT of time for things like this to calm down/ for parents to change/ accept/ understand, outsiders really can't do anything about it).

I am more worried about the episode count though. We have 4 episodes left, and we still need to address some of the main themes in the show:

1. Next episode would probably be tennis focus against the girls tennis club.

2. Maki's dad would bound to show up at last few episodes to cause some trouble , and either Toma or Maki would get into serious trouble.

3. National , they need to win at least 1 game, that's at least another episode dedicated to tennis.

4. Yuta situation might be worse than it seems. Worst case scenario his mom transfer him to other school.

Come to think of it I don't even think we might be able to see them in national because I feel like so much shit would go wrong before that... We'll see how it goes...
 
Nov 29, 7:17 AM

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Ventus_S said:
jd2001z said:


I feel like that rather than her being pissed off about that, she's afraid of how society would view Yuu and her because people like Yuu aren't accepted yet in society. I think it's evident in the end when she started freaking out when she saw the clothes in the bag and didn't even ask Yuu for an explanation. I hope they'll be able to talk about it in the next episode, or at least before the anime ends, and that their mom will listen and be more understanding about it.


Honestly most of the family issues in this show probably won't be resolved. (And the reality is it really takes ALOT of time for things like this to calm down/ for parents to change/ accept/ understand, outsiders really can't do anything about it).

I am more worried about the episode count though. We have 4 episodes left, and we still need to address some of the main themes in the show:

1. Next episode would probably be tennis focus against the girls tennis club.

2. Maki's dad would bound to show up at last few episodes to cause some trouble , and either Toma or Maki would get into serious trouble.

3. National , they need to win at least 1 game, that's at least another episode dedicated to tennis.

4. Yuta situation might be worse than it seems. Worst case scenario his mom transfer him to other school.

Come to think of it I don't even think we might be able to see them in national because I feel like so much shit would go wrong before that... We'll see how it goes...


I agree that they might not be able to wrap everything up in the next four episodes, but I think it'd be better that way. I mean it in a sense that it will be more realistic. In most anime I've seen, or actually almost every kind of media, the drama is resolved by the end of the media, and I think it's made the world think that in fiction, there should always be a happy ending, when there shouldn't. With an anime like this, it would be more realistic to show that not everything can be fixed and that anything can still can happen. It'd also be better because it might turn out bad if they rushed everything to make a conclusive ending for the show. It'd be better with an open ending, especially if they're planning to make a second season.

Ventus_S said:

4. Yuta situation might be worse than it seems. Worst case scenario his mom transfer him to other school.


Why would their mom transfer them to another school? It wouldn't exactly help at all when it comes to trying to change being part of the LGBT. The worst case scenario is actually sending them to a mental institution for conversion therapy or something. There are some parents that would do that when they think that being part of the LGBT is a mental illness. But we don't exactly know yet why Yuu's mom reacted way, so we can't know for sure.
Modified by jd2001z, Nov 29, 8:46 AM
 
Nov 29, 7:26 AM

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This was really good! So the one who complained was Nao's mother. She is of the kind who only cares about good grades as if they are everything, and she doesn't care about how her son feels because she knows what's "best." Then there's Mitsue, who loves drawing, but has her aspirations and dreams trampled over by her own mother. Possibly because they don't really have much money, and it seems to be harsh to live out of your art, even in Japan. I loved her scene with Sakurai-sensei though, it was pretty heartfelt, and it humanized her a lot. Her drawings were also good! And she was a jerk to those girls, but she was only trying to buy them some time, and it was scary, and I appreciate her even more now.

Then there's Yuuta. Maki really is an open and sensitive person, and I guess we have Shou-san to thank for this. He was there for Maki and his mother, and he even opened up to Maki about his pain, his worries, and how life got better for him. Yuuta doesn't know if he identifies as a girl, but he feels pressured to choose because this world makes you feel like everything has to be black or white. I'm sure his talk with Maki helped him a lot though, but I'm worried a bit after that confrontation with his mother. Good thing his sisters don't seem to be as prejudiced as she is, so he isn't really alone there. And I bet it took courage to even suggest dressing up as girls to the team too. He and Maki looked great though. xD
 
Nov 29, 10:03 AM
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So Japanese parents are fucked beyond belief huh?
 
Nov 29, 11:40 AM

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Love this episode, Yuta realizing what he really is as well as Mitsue realizing if she is stupid or not. Aside from getting excited on the practice match, the last scene where Yuta got caught excites me too.
 
Nov 29, 12:57 PM

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SAMe19 said:
So Japanese parents are fucked beyond belief huh?


Well, this is how you get a society with very low crime rate compare to U.S.
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Japan/United-States/Crime

Freedom has its cost too. Those "messed up" parents are what produce the more controlled and discipline children.

Like seriously it all depend on how you look at things.
Nothing in this world is perfect, and there's no right or wrong answer.
 
Nov 29, 1:35 PM
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The boys all have issues with their parents
 
Nov 29, 2:21 PM

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I keep seeing people in this discussion board commenting on how sudden and out of place the LGBTQ+ scene was compared to the rest of the show, but like, this isn't the first time Yu's identity and sexuality have been addressed? This is literally a continuation from an earlier episode between maki and yu. I felt that writing-wise it flowed quite well. Say what you will about maki being a mary sue, but the throughline transition from 'we need to spy on our future rivals' -> 'only girls gather around rival character during training, we'll stand out' -> 'cross-dressing as a solution' -> 'yu and maki crossdress' -> 'yu ask maki on his perspective on the situation and further opens up on his insecurities relating to the situation'.

Is it really that out of place that the LGBTQ+ kid with 2 sisters whose interested in exploring his gender would learn how to add makeup and dress up like a girl? How is it weird for him to want to seek an opinion from a guy who he already knows is pretty liberal about sexuality based on previous conversations? The foundations for this conversation were already there, it's just that this episode they finally had an organic way incorporate it.

Furthermore, It's really not that hamfisted. This scene just stands out more from other scenes in this series and other shows because LGBTQ+ topics are rarely so openly and matter of factly discussed. It's a case of the viewer not being desensitized to the topic rather than the scene itself being out of place.

It's a drama and slice of life anime, what do you expect characters to do, other than talk about their feelings? What does it matter if instead of there being romantic melodrama about teenage crushes we have drama regarding gender and sexuality? It's the same theme of 'exploring oneself' and 'coming of age' we see in other anime.

If we can have 2 whole seasons about a depressed shogi player who agonizes over whether Shogi is something he enjoys or needs to live, then I think one scene with a teen asking his friend "hey, is it weird if I don't know what I really what I want to be as a person?" is pretty subtle in comparison. I'm almost inclined to call this a double-standard.

If you watch enough of the same kind of media and get used to the mainstream, any deviation from the norm will stand out. The messages in this show are hardly any more hamfisted or out of place than the theme of 'friendship' is in shounen.

It's pretty obvious this show is out to explore the relationship between children and their parents, whether it be a parents response to their child (in the case of Yu tentatively being NB and his mother imposing the gender of a boy on him; the hinted at anger issues with Toma and his mother's ire for it) or a child's response to their parents (Maki's response to his father's abuse; the pathological liar's response to his helicopter mother).

This show doesn't need the narrow perspective of life that, you, as an individual, believe to be realistic. Most times, rather than not, parents are flawed. It can range from something as small as parents ridiculing or scorning their child's hobbies and career paths (as with the artist girl) to extreme and unhinged abuse (as seen with Itsuki). Granted a majority are likely not as extreme as the latter, but what does it matter? This is anime. It's fiction. That's the great thing about it. As a medium, it can bring together interesting concepts and put them together. If the show wants to focus on parental issues and identity shaping in teens rather than the usual romance tumblings of youth, what it to you? Those aspects are as much an important aspect of people's youths as the societies they participated in.
 
Nov 29, 3:12 PM
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I think Maki’s explanation of his mother’s FTM friend and Yu’s responses to it were the glue for this episode.

Clearly the knee jerk reaction to Yu’s mother at the end could be looked upon as scornful, but don’t overlook her feelings and her experience just because she is impulsive and inept at conveying them to Yu. That was to make a cliff hanger end. Her thoughts on life matter just as much as her sons. Hence the anguish Maki spoke of his moms friend earlier on outing to family, usually those closest to you. It can be tough, but you can make it through!

The second plot line of Mitsue struggling with bully’s both online and in person and her parents disapproval of drawing. Again, parental expectations that clash with a child’s wishes and dreams. It can really be a big struggle for many.

The point of the whole episode was summed up by Yu at the end. Maki has the gift to sense things. He also has the ability to come to the aid at just the right time. Regardless of the crappy situation he has been in growing up with parents like his. He is making the best of things along with the support of true friends and overflows with love back for his friends and those he calls close.

Great episode but don’t get stuck on gender / non gender identity and bullying because I think that was only the common day medium for what the whole story is really about. Look at all sides, even if you think they might be wrong. That might be a good summary. :)
Modified by idealtoy, Nov 29, 3:16 PM
 
Nov 29, 3:29 PM
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landofthekwt said:
The boys all have issues with their parents


Exactly
Along that line,

Here are a few thoughts to add to that,

Children have historically and frequently been at odds with parents during childhood and beyond. This is called growing up. That doesn’t make the parents automatically wrong. That doesn’t make the child always wrong either.

I’m sure not all Japanese parents are bad from a Western view. Don’t look at these examples and stereotype ALL Japanese family’s.

Coming of age is not always easy, and here in this sports anime are some examples.


Having said all that I absolutely adore Mitsue. I want to protect her.
 
Nov 29, 5:39 PM

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Croque_Monsieur said:
I keep seeing people in this discussion board commenting on how sudden and out of place the LGBTQ+ scene was compared to the rest of the show, but like, this isn't the first time Yu's identity and sexuality have been addressed? This is literally a continuation from an earlier episode between maki and yu. I felt that writing-wise it flowed quite well. Say what you will about maki being a mary sue, but the throughline transition from 'we need to spy on our future rivals' -> 'only girls gather around rival character during training, we'll stand out' -> 'cross-dressing as a solution' -> 'yu and maki crossdress' -> 'yu ask maki on his perspective on the situation and further opens up on his insecurities relating to the situation'.

Is it really that out of place that the LGBTQ+ kid with 2 sisters whose interested in exploring his gender would learn how to add makeup and dress up like a girl? How is it weird for him to want to seek an opinion from a guy who he already knows is pretty liberal about sexuality based on previous conversations? The foundations for this conversation were already there, it's just that this episode they finally had an organic way incorporate it.

Furthermore, It's really not that hamfisted. This scene just stands out more from other scenes in this series and other shows because LGBTQ+ topics are rarely so openly and matter of factly discussed. It's a case of the viewer not being desensitized to the topic rather than the scene itself being out of place.

It's a drama and slice of life anime, what do you expect characters to do, other than talk about their feelings? What does it matter if instead of there being romantic melodrama about teenage crushes we have drama regarding gender and sexuality? It's the same theme of 'exploring oneself' and 'coming of age' we see in other anime.

If we can have 2 whole seasons about a depressed shogi player who agonizes over whether Shogi is something he enjoys or needs to live, then I think one scene with a teen asking his friend "hey, is it weird if I don't know what I really what I want to be as a person?" is pretty subtle in comparison. I'm almost inclined to call this a double-standard.

If you watch enough of the same kind of media and get used to the mainstream, any deviation from the norm will stand out. The messages in this show are hardly any more hamfisted or out of place than the theme of 'friendship' is in shounen.

It's pretty obvious this show is out to explore the relationship between children and their parents, whether it be a parents response to their child (in the case of Yu tentatively being NB and his mother imposing the gender of a boy on him; the hinted at anger issues with Toma and his mother's ire for it) or a child's response to their parents (Maki's response to his father's abuse; the pathological liar's response to his helicopter mother).

This show doesn't need the narrow perspective of life that, you, as an individual, believe to be realistic. Most times, rather than not, parents are flawed. It can range from something as small as parents ridiculing or scorning their child's hobbies and career paths (as with the artist girl) to extreme and unhinged abuse (as seen with Itsuki). Granted a majority are likely not as extreme as the latter, but what does it matter? This is anime. It's fiction. That's the great thing about it. As a medium, it can bring together interesting concepts and put them together. If the show wants to focus on parental issues and identity shaping in teens rather than the usual romance tumblings of youth, what it to you? Those aspects are as much an important aspect of people's youths as the societies they participated in.


I agree with everything you just said, and you definitely worded it better than I could have. But I think there's a misunderstanding about Itsuki's mom. It wasn't exactly her fault that she poured the hot water on Itsuki when he was a baby. I'm not sure if someone has said in here before, but she was suffering from postpartum depression, which happens a few weeks after pregnancy. It happens because of chemical changes in the brain after going through childbirth, and while the mother can go through different experiences like joy or excitement, going through this depression is pretty common.

The depression in Itsuki's mom was triggered when Itsuki cried, and this brought her into a trance. In this trance, she did things she would normally NEVER do her entire life. Her expression during that episode also implied that she was in a trance. So I think that Itsuki's mom wasn't abusive, but she problems after her pregnancy. I'm not saying that it isn't bad or anything, I'm just saying that it isn't exactly his mom's fault.
 
Nov 29, 6:06 PM

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Yay finally focus on Yuta and Mitsue!!!

I really like their characters!

Also maki why are you so gooooood!!!!!
 
Nov 29, 6:28 PM
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Hatsuyuki said:
Pknoctis said:
That non-binary discussion felt kinda out of place.


It took me out of my immersion and made me think to myself "damn this anime is taking on identity politics huh"

I watch anime as a form of escapism, I am constantly reminded on a daily basis of these issues IRL, I watch anime precisely to avoid them.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing though, just that I didn't really expect it to plunge into these social and sexual issues like this. Also I'm usually very okay with drama, but I have to say the fact that each one of these kids have some sort of fucked up family circumstances is just ridiculous, give it a break, if you're aiming at realism when you're tackling sensitive topics like identity issues then at least try to make the drama a bit more believable.
Identiy Politics are you serious they actually had a name for those people "OKAMA" it also answers the question of who took care of him when he was little when his mom had to work 2-3 jobs just to make ends meet. but, if you felt out of umcortable about it then we shouln't talk about domestic abuse or Single parenting, any other issues presented in anime at all. lastime i checked Japan the Shinning Beacon has been Rightwing for decades. Just drop the anime write an angry review and just stop watching no one is holding a gun to your head to watch.
 
Nov 29, 6:55 PM

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A pretty powerful episode for this series so far. Enjoyed it from start to end - no moment of boredom. My only gripe for this episode is that it did a lot of telling which could have been better shown. The series has done a good job of that so far but we don't need the subtext explained to us like dummies. Despite this complaint, still a 5/5 for me.
 
Nov 29, 7:30 PM
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People kinda wig me out when they argue that a supportive conversation between kids about gender identity is a Problem because it's maybe a little verbose for 13 year olds, but a 10 minute soliloquy about the power of friendship while a bomb has 30 seconds to go is standard fare.

Feel your feelings, but stop lying that you're concerned about realistic dialog.
 
Nov 29, 8:29 PM

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Uh... isn't Maki a bit too perfect? I mean, because he looks like the son I always wanted.

Now seriously, this was a fantastic episode. The talk between Maki and Yuuta was easily my favorite moment since I simply loved how natural and heartfelt it was. Really liked the message it left too.

So, we will have another match next week, uh? Not that I'm complaining but I wonder when Toma's issue will be addressed.
 
Nov 30, 4:56 AM

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The show:


Fish queens:
 
Nov 30, 7:41 AM

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I feel like I get this anime and then I think I don't lol. Also damn this episode was pretty heavy with the FTM stuff.
Gray, Rave, Crave, Deprave.
Grave me,
Grave for you.

 
Nov 30, 7:58 AM
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I rly liked this episode it warmed my heart. <3 & like wow a lot of them have horrible mothers.... for some reason almost none of their fathers are even shown like maki is the only one with a horrible father what’s up with that. in real life I know way more people with horrible fathers than mothers lmfao but I do think the mothers are believable in their horribleness
 
Nov 30, 8:28 AM
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Ventus_S said:
SAMe19 said:
So Japanese parents are fucked beyond belief huh?


Well, this is how you get a society with very low crime rate compare to U.S.
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Japan/United-States/Crime

Freedom has its cost too. Those "messed up" parents are what produce the more controlled and discipline children.

Like seriously it all depend on how you look at things.
Nothing in this world is perfect, and there's no right or wrong answer.


Thats a logical way to look at it. Totally agree.
 
Nov 30, 10:23 AM

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Did anyone notice that while Yuuta was finally able to (openly) discuss his gender identity, Maki pretty much ended up talking the whole time..

 
Nov 30, 10:56 AM

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youcansmileagain said:
I rly liked this episode it warmed my heart. <3 & like wow a lot of them have horrible mothers.... for some reason almost none of their fathers are even shown like maki is the only one with a horrible father what’s up with that. in real life I know way more people with horrible fathers than mothers lmfao but I do think the mothers are believable in their horribleness


In Japan, wife stays at home doing chore/ cooking/ housework while husband going out for work all day is still a pretty common trend. So it's quite normal you don't see dad around while mom often take care of their children, thus why you see a lot of mothers show up.

About Yuta being gay/ trans, I suspect the "father" will be even more harsh about it than his mother base on real life situation since male tend to be even less sympathetic than female. His mother reaction is actually perfectly normal though, she's just in a denial state right now to find out his child's being "abnormal" in her standard. She may eventually cope and accept it, given some time, or force her child to become "normal" again before her perspective change first. This is what normally happen in real life.

The sad truth is you can't "change" a person's sexuality no matter how hard you try. So if the parents don't cope with it, their relationship would just end up horribly.

It's easy for outsider to say "hey, I'm perfectly ok with LGBT, it's cool with me", but when it comes to their own children, it's a whole different story for most people, even if they don't want to admit it. (It's like when we watch news and see a guy got murdered. We're slightly shocked, but after 1 day we're like, "ok, let's move on with our life, who cares." But when a murder happened to your own child, you'd want the murderer to pay for it with severe punishment and you'd never let go.)
Modified by Ventus_S, Nov 30, 11:08 AM
 
Nov 30, 1:41 PM

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KomaDoll said:
While I appreciate LGBT+ characters and anime tackling issues related to it, it felt bit heavy handed to me in this ep and went bit too much to educational territory. Not that i hated it, but I prefer more to show not tell. And that talk kinda feltl like main point of today's ep. I preferred more the substle approach the show had in the beginning about Yuu being gay than full on terminology lesson.

In other hand the show in general is kinda preachy, someone is having some kind of issue with their parents or themselves, they talk about it to either Maki or Toma and get big speech that makes them feel better. So maybe the show could also ease about that, it's just getting bit repetitive. But i guess we will get more sport focused eps in the future as well. Not that man left to wrap this up though.


In fact, I found it even quite offensive. I mean, damn it, the show "turns" a revolutionary gay male character into a trans character, thereby erasing the representation of male homosexuality and indulging Japanese toxic stereotypes that sexuality is related to gender and trans = gay? And the trans audience completely ignores this, because their representation is more important to them than feelings of gay, but cis people? Oh lol, this is one of the most extraordinary things I've heard lately.

Talim said:
Hatsuyuki said:

I watch anime as a form of escapism, I am constantly reminded on a daily basis of these issues IRL, I watch anime precisely to avoid them.

And a lot of women watch anime as forms of escapism too from the rampant sexual harassment and assault we have to endure ourselves in real life or hear/read about every day in the news, and yet we're constantly bombarded with rape jokes or harassment/assault being played off for laughs in tons of anime genres. I gave up on expecting anime to stop being sexist ages ago. So get over it. Not every anime is gunna cater to your needs, so stop expecting it to.


Okay, then what can you say about gay boys who are probably watching this anime too and along with this episode find out that the anime refused to represent them, instead preferring the homophobic gay = trans thing?
Level of my english is still too poor, so ask not particularly angry because of my terrible grammar.
 
Nov 30, 2:05 PM

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RobertBobert said:
KomaDoll said:
While I appreciate LGBT+ characters and anime tackling issues related to it, it felt bit heavy handed to me in this ep and went bit too much to educational territory. Not that i hated it, but I prefer more to show not tell. And that talk kinda feltl like main point of today's ep. I preferred more the substle approach the show had in the beginning about Yuu being gay than full on terminology lesson.

In other hand the show in general is kinda preachy, someone is having some kind of issue with their parents or themselves, they talk about it to either Maki or Toma and get big speech that makes them feel better. So maybe the show could also ease about that, it's just getting bit repetitive. But i guess we will get more sport focused eps in the future as well. Not that man left to wrap this up though.


In fact, I found it even quite offensive. I mean, damn it, the show "turns" a revolutionary gay male character into a trans character, thereby erasing the representation of male homosexuality and indulging Japanese toxic stereotypes that sexuality is related to gender and trans = gay? And the trans audience completely ignores this, because their representation is more important to them than feelings of gay, but cis people? Oh lol, this is one of the most extraordinary things I've heard lately.

Talim said:

And a lot of women watch anime as forms of escapism too from the rampant sexual harassment and assault we have to endure ourselves in real life or hear/read about every day in the news, and yet we're constantly bombarded with rape jokes or harassment/assault being played off for laughs in tons of anime genres. I gave up on expecting anime to stop being sexist ages ago. So get over it. Not every anime is gunna cater to your needs, so stop expecting it to.


Okay, then what can you say about gay boys who are probably watching this anime too and along with this episode find out that the anime refused to represent them, instead preferring the homophobic gay = trans thing?


There was nothing revolutionary about Yuuta.
 
Nov 30, 2:14 PM

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Jin_uzuki said:
RobertBobert said:


In fact, I found it even quite offensive. I mean, damn it, the show "turns" a revolutionary gay male character into a trans character, thereby erasing the representation of male homosexuality and indulging Japanese toxic stereotypes that sexuality is related to gender and trans = gay? And the trans audience completely ignores this, because their representation is more important to them than feelings of gay, but cis people? Oh lol, this is one of the most extraordinary things I've heard lately.



Okay, then what can you say about gay boys who are probably watching this anime too and along with this episode find out that the anime refused to represent them, instead preferring the homophobic gay = trans thing?


There was nothing revolutionary about Yuuta.


Do you know any other non-shoujo all-male shows, where there would be neutrally depicted male gay characters? Not interpretations of stupid fujoshi, not explicit girl-focused homoerotic shows, namely gay male in gender-neutral or male-focused all male show?
Level of my english is still too poor, so ask not particularly angry because of my terrible grammar.
 
Nov 30, 2:21 PM

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Okay, let me stop y'all right now since there seems be some .. confusion about Yuuta.

I've read all the posts and I've seen Yuuta being identified as non-binary, trans, gay.. did I miss something? Right now Yuuta is none of those identifiers, he hasn't figured himself out yet. We call that Questioning. It's the Q in LGBTQ.

I hope this clears things up.
 
Nov 30, 2:26 PM

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RobertBobert said:
Jin_uzuki said:


There was nothing revolutionary about Yuuta.


Do you know any other non-shoujo all-male shows, where there would be neutrally depicted male gay characters? Not interpretations of stupid fujoshi, not explicit girl-focused homoerotic shows, namely gay male in gender-neutral or male-focused all male show?


What's with the restrictions lol (Also for what matters, this show isn't exactly marketed toward boys if we go by the magazines its stuff are published and the merchandise). Side characters having feelings for another male character (Often the MC) are nothing new, they are bordeline a meme at this point.



I could probably name a bunch more if I actually tried and started digging into my MAL.

It would be revolutionary if they actually got with SOMEONE at this point.

Anyway, anime do have a bit of problem with the whole "he's gay so he's actually intro crossdressing and possibly would be fine being a girl" that is true on other hand, but I'm not sure the show was actually saying that. They just set up a character in the second (third?) episode and this was the episode in which they actually made use of him. They did the same thing with Mitsue, though she just felt like an extra.

Mostly the "problem" I suppose is that the show never properly established his interest in female stuff while it definitely established his interest in boys (which hilariously enough I've seen some people deny lol because it just came form Maki's assumption).

Modified by Jin_uzuki, Nov 30, 2:33 PM
 
Nov 30, 2:39 PM

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Jin_uzuki said:
RobertBobert said:


Do you know any other non-shoujo all-male shows, where there would be neutrally depicted male gay characters? Not interpretations of stupid fujoshi, not explicit girl-focused homoerotic shows, namely gay male in gender-neutral or male-focused all male show?


What's with the restrictions lol (Also for what matters, this show isn't exactly marketed toward boys if we go by the magazines its stuff are published and the merchandise). Side characters having feelings for another male character (Often the MC) are nothing new, they are bordeline a meme at this point.



I could probably name a bunch more if I actually tried and started digging into my MAL.

It would be revolutionary if they actually got with SOMEONE at this point.

Anyway, anime do have a bit of problem with the whole "he's gay so he's actually intro crossdressing and possibly would be fine being a girl" that is true on other hand, but I'm not sure the show was actually saying that. They just set up a character in the second (third?) episode and this was the episode in which they actually made use of him. They did the same thing with Mitsue, though she just felt like an extra.

Mostly the "problem" I suppose is that the show never properly established his interest in female stuff while it definitely established his interest in boys (which hilariously enough I've seen some people deny lol because it just came form Maki's assumption).



One character from the rare LGBT shonen, one gay option from straight romance and token gay from Ikuhara's work. Are you seriously? Yuu is definitely not the best character, but he is revolutionary in that his existence appeals to a male audience in shows that are not trying to be fujoshi-bait and are not dedicated to LGBTQ.

In this regard, the intentional or unintentional attachment of his sexuality to gender looks very problematic. It sounds like the authors are trying to apologize for the existence of the queer boy in the show, saying "hey guys, don't take it seriously, it's just a trap. You like anime traps, right?". It's like if at one point Michiru said "I'm not a lesbian, I just want to fuck Haruka because she looks like a hot guy".
Level of my english is still too poor, so ask not particularly angry because of my terrible grammar.
 
Nov 30, 3:02 PM

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RobertBobert said:

One character from the rare LGBT shonen,

Who, Touma?

one gay option from straight romance

I can tell you don't read Koi to Uso because the manga spent like 30 chapters dedicated to him and LGBT issues. There is a literal whole arc dedicated to it in a *straight* harem manga.

and token gay from Ikuhara's work.

There are like 3 gay characters in Sarazanami, what token, wtf.

Are you seriously?

Wait what about about the other 2. Anyway

*Can you show me characters like this one*
*Here you go*
*Not like this*

This type of character go back to like 20 years ago, by the way.

Yuu is definitely not the best character, but he is revolutionary in that his existence appeals to a male audience in shows that are not trying to be fujoshi-bait and are not dedicated to LGBTQ.

What the heck does this even mean? "Appeal to a male audience"? How do you even know this show's audience? The cast is 99% cute boys, the official merchandise includes stuff like (https://i.imgur.com/ktZMwlC.jpg) and it's published on magazines like Pash. Sounds like the show is exactly trying to court the audience you hate so much. I'm not even sure why it's a problem if it's "aimed at girls" anyway.

In this regard, the intentional or unintentional attachment of his sexuality to gender looks very problematic. It sounds like the authors are trying to apologize for the existence of the queer boy in the show, saying "hey guys, don't take it seriously, it's just a trap. You like anime traps, right?". It's like if at one point Michiru said "I'm not a lesbian, I just want to fuck Haruka because she looks like a hot guy".

lol, you don't know what you are talking about. Genuinely transgender characters trigger people way more than gay characters. Just take a peek at /a/ after the episode was release. And a trap, really? They actually legitimately discussed stuff like transitioning and what comes with it. On the top of it, did you actually watch the episode and understood what the character decided? Because it sounds like you are talking about Astolfo, not Yuuta.
Modified by Jin_uzuki, Nov 30, 3:06 PM
 
Nov 30, 3:18 PM

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Jin_uzuki said:
RobertBobert said:

One character from the rare LGBT shonen,

Who, Touma?

one gay option from straight romance

I can tell you don't read Koi to Uso because the manga spent like 30 chapters dedicated to him and LGBT issues. There is a literal whole arc dedicated to it in a *straight* harem manga.

and token gay from Ikuhara's work.

There are like 3 gay characters in Sarazanami, what token, wtf.

Are you seriously?

Wait what about about the other 2. Anyway

*Can you show me characters like this one*
*Here you go*
*Not like this*

This type of character go back to like 20 years ago, by the way.

Yuu is definitely not the best character, but he is revolutionary in that his existence appeals to a male audience in shows that are not trying to be fujoshi-bait and are not dedicated to LGBTQ.

What the heck does this even mean? "Appeal to a male audience"? How do you even know this show's audience? The cast is 99% cute boys, the official merchandise includes stuff like (https://i.imgur.com/ktZMwlC.jpg) and it's published on magazines like Pash. Sounds like the show is exactly trying to court the audience you hate so much. I'm not even sure why it's a problem if it's "aimed at girls" anyway.

In this regard, the intentional or unintentional attachment of his sexuality to gender looks very problematic. It sounds like the authors are trying to apologize for the existence of the queer boy in the show, saying "hey guys, don't take it seriously, it's just a trap. You like anime traps, right?". It's like if at one point Michiru said "I'm not a lesbian, I just want to fuck Haruka because she looks like a hot guy".

lol, you don't know what you are talking about. Genuinely transgender characters trigger people way more than gay characters. Just take a peek at /a/ after the episode was release. And a trap, really? They actually legitimately discussed stuff like transitioning and what comes with it. On the top of it, did you actually watch the episode and understood what the character decided? Because it sounds like you are talking about Astolfo, not Yuuta.


Do I need to explain to you that a separate arc for gay option character does not turn a whole story into gay romance or that a couple of side characters and a gay character from main cast are two different things? However, judging by the way you absurdly try to accuse me of hating a girl-focused show on the basis of the fact that I consider the target audience an important element in positioning its content, explaining something to you is simply useless.

Dude, I don't give a damn about people's attitudes to these topics, you know? I do not care about it until it is speculation or trying to satisfy someone’s fantasies under the guise of social commentary. In this case, my sarcasm is caused by the fact that they first set him up as a gay boy, but then suddenly “turned” him into a gender-uncomfortable character, which is extremely problematic in the context of the Japanese love for the “trans are gay” attitude. The problem is not that Yuu is a trans person or what the show says about it, but how sharply and poorly prepared it was in the context of past episodes.

P.S Hah, considering how male-focused shows are trying to sell themselves to fujoshi these days, that still doesn't mean anything. Suffice it to recall the Bungoku Stray Dogs. Not to mention the all-female show, Eupho, for example, still makes money on KumiRei, even though this ship has been at the bottom of the ocean for several years.
Modified by RobertBobert, Nov 30, 3:24 PM
Level of my english is still too poor, so ask not particularly angry because of my terrible grammar.
 
Nov 30, 3:28 PM
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HereticHunter said:
Let alone how she has the guts to go eat at the home of a poor kid while doing nothing to earn it neither helping with it, unlike Toma who bought the food last time they were on Maki's house.


to be fair Toma is "rich", did you even saw his room? some stuff he had would cost easily over 500$ (if they are real or "his" and not from his brother).
 
Nov 30, 3:37 PM

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RobertBobert said:


Do I need to explain to you that a separate arch for gay option characters does not turn a whole story into gay romance or that a couple of side characters and a gay character from main cast are two different things?


All the characters in that pic are main characters are more important that Yuuta, with the exception of Yamagi (Who is actually the revolutionary one arguably, given how mainstream and important Gundam is in Japan. Also his love interest was the manliest man in the show.).


However, judging by the way you absurdly try to accuse me of hating a girl-focused show on the basis of the fact that I consider the target audience an important element in positioning its content, explaining something to you is simply useless.

What conclusion am I supposed to draw? "It's not a show aimed at fujoshi or LGBT, it's aimed at BOYS". It's not even aimed at boys, and 2-3 characters from that pic (which I didn't even make btw, that's how much of a meme these characters are) are actually from shows/manga aimed at guys by the way (Or everyone).

I would however agree that yes, the target audience is certainly important (hence why no one thinks BL is actually revolutionary duh), but I'm not sure why you think Stars Align's audience is so different from the other sport animes? Or similar shows were the cast is 99% boys being cute.


Dude, I don't give a damn about people's attitudes to these topics, you know?

??? But you just said the show made him "trans" to satisfy some kind of gender norm. This show was announced like two years ago anyway so it's not like they are writing the plot as I type this. But even then, Yuuta himself is not exactly transgender, he's literally just exploring his possibilities and how he feels. Which was like... the whole point of the episode...

I do not care about it until it is speculation or trying to satisfy someone’s fantasies under the guise of social commentary. In this case, my sarcasm is caused by the fact that they first set him up as a gay boy, but then suddenly “turned” him into a gender-uncomfortable character, which is extremely problematic in the context of the Japanese love for the “trans are gay” attitude. The problem is not that Yuu is a trans person or what the show says about it, but how sharply and poorly prepared it was in the context of past episodes.

The show just set him up as being interested in boys, but on other than that this is the first time it actually puts him in the spotlight and gives him significant development (We actually knew nothing about him before this). Could his (possible) interest in crossdressing have been hinted earlier? Yeah sure, it's not the end of the world, we'll get some other gay side character who is not getting with anyone next season or the one after that, don't worry.

Or maybe Maki and Touma will kiss and everyone will be happy, I dunno.
Modified by Jin_uzuki, Nov 30, 3:46 PM
 
Nov 30, 3:47 PM

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really wonder what happened to that basketball game
did they win? or lose?

Ysad_Ziwezhan said:
spicychile said:

For a 14-year old, he seems a bit too wise to be believable.


Agree. Instead of having a teenager with super power we get one with super maturity and an attitude that could put to shame many many real adults.

Even if I'm wondering wether that kind of kid would really exist (it could if you have the right parents) I'm ok with it and the thing to remember is the makers of this show really and obviously (someone said "preachy") want to send an educative message (toward kids and toward adults it seems). It's not a "turn off you brain" kind of anime and I'm, again, ok with it.

he's not the first anime kid who're super mature for their age. take Echizen Ryoma (age 12) from prince of tennis for example
Modified by ttcchen, Nov 30, 3:59 PM
 
Nov 30, 3:54 PM

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@Jin_uzuki If you continue to do huge posts, casuistically responding separately to each of my phrases, then I will simply stop talking to you.

First, Love and Lie is still the story of a straight love triangle. The fact that the gay character option is formally a member of the main cast does not change anything in essence. As for the rest, it is not for me to tell you about the Gundam's fujoshi fanbase, so large that the anonymous even once created a fake interview about it.

Before making any conclusions, you must first understand what I wanted to say. In my opinion, in my message it was said quite directly that such characters are unusual for a show that is not specifically focused on the LGBTQ theme or is not oriented to gay-loved girls. Given the patriarchal nature of Japan and Japanese culture, male homosexuality is a very sensitive topic in anime and manga, while female homosexuality has almost no problems with this even in the safest shoujo magazines.

Do you even read what I'm writing? I said that it “looked as if”, and not that it was an obvious author intention for me. That is why I compared them with Haruka and Michiru, since this couple also relayed some problematic tropes, which, if desired, could be read as homophobic out of context.
Level of my english is still too poor, so ask not particularly angry because of my terrible grammar.
 
Nov 30, 4:04 PM
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this_shit_again said:
Did anyone notice that while Yuuta was finally able to (openly) discuss his gender identity, Maki pretty much ended up talking the whole time..



Well, Make just have more experience about this stuff and Yu is still confused and Maki told there is nothing wrong with that and he isn't weird (in the bad way).
 
Nov 30, 4:11 PM

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RobertBobert said:
@Jin_uzuki If you continue to do huge posts, casuistically responding separately to each of my phrases, then I will simply stop talking to you.

How is one suppose to answer? It's more clear this way.

First, Love and Lie is still the story of a straight love triangle. The fact that the gay character option is formally a member of the main cast does not change anything in essence. As for the rest, it is not for me to tell you about the Gundam's fujoshi fanbase, so large that the anonymous even once created a fake interview about it.


This is making my head hurt. Koi to Uso, a straight harem that features a prominent gay character that is given space and development (Do you actually read it?) for multiple volumes is less bold and revolutionary than... a cute boys shows about them playing tennis? And how is IBO "less" fujoshi than this? Sure, Gundam female fanbase is massive, but Gundam is a primary otaku media ̶m̶a̶d̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶s̶e̶l̶l̶ ̶k̶i̶t̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶k̶i̶d̶s̶ aimed to everyone were 99% of the characters are straight, the main character in IBO literally gets two girlfriends in the end (And the show didn't even air at midnight or anything in Japan?) What the heck are you even arguing and why do you think this show is somehow less female-oriented than the many other similar shows? Didn't the Maki/Touma shipping in the previous threads tip you off?

Before making any conclusions, you must first understand what I wanted to say. In my opinion, in my message it was said quite directly that such characters are unusual for a show that is not specifically focused on the LGBTQ theme or is not oriented to gay-loved girls. Given the patriarchal nature of Japan and Japanese culture, male homosexuality is a very sensitive topic in anime and manga, while female homosexuality has almost no problems with this even in the safest shoujo magazines.

Well, yeah. But again, it being a sensitive topic doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I mean, this is literally a page from a shounen harem manga:



You know what it would be bold or revolutionary? If Yuuta got with someone, or the shop actually set up Maki and Toma together explicitly.

Do you even read what I'm writing? I said that it “looked as if”, and not that it was an obvious author intention for me. That is why I compared them with Haruka and Michiru, since this couple also relayed some problematic tropes, which, if desired, could be read as homophobic out of context.

I did, your "what if" didn't make particularly sense. Especially when you tried to connect genuinely transgender characters to "traps". The episode itself is pretty "real" in how it actually addresses the issue, hence why a lot of people got angry.
Modified by Jin_uzuki, Nov 30, 4:16 PM
 
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