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Poll: Hoshiai no Sora Episode 8 Discussion


Dec 3, 8:48 AM

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sango868 said:
Zerity said:


facts, was like what was the need for this at that moment other than to push LGBTQ shit on us


Wow imagine being so homophobic and close minded to think a show is 'pushing LGBT shit on us' if you don't like it don't watch, there needs to be less people like you who don't seem to realize that it's very important to have LGBTQ+ rep even in anime.


imagine being so close minded that the simple saying of it was out of place makes me homophobic (which im not, gay people dont scare me), also the importance doesnt matter for the show, if it made sense to have like an 7-8 min talk right then I would be fine with it, if u read what i said later to someone else in here u would know this but u dont, its fine to have it but it was just hella out of place then and felt forced which is what i mean by pushing, the second time when the MC and him where talking after the fact I liked, it made sense and I liked what they were saying. Also im not anti-gay cause i dont like LGBTQ, (I love given, banana fish, yuri on ice, and sarazanmai)
 
Dec 3, 4:31 PM
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Zerity said:
sango868 said:


Wow imagine being so homophobic and close minded to think a show is 'pushing LGBT shit on us' if you don't like it don't watch, there needs to be less people like you who don't seem to realize that it's very important to have LGBTQ+ rep even in anime.


imagine being so close minded that the simple saying of it was out of place makes me homophobic (which im not, gay people dont scare me), also the importance doesnt matter for the show, if it made sense to have like an 7-8 min talk right then I would be fine with it, if u read what i said later to someone else in here u would know this but u dont, its fine to have it but it was just hella out of place then and felt forced which is what i mean by pushing, the second time when the MC and him where talking after the fact I liked, it made sense and I liked what they were saying. Also im not anti-gay cause i dont like LGBTQ, (I love given, banana fish, yuri on ice, and sarazanmai)


You kinda said things a lot more than just that you thought it out of place by upping it to the show pushing LGBTQ "shit" on you, so I think you can at least understand why people would interpret your words the way they have.

I'm also sort of tired of people saying "I'm not homophobic because gays don't scare me." This is really not an issue that boils down to fear alone and there's a reason why the gay panic defense is utter trash in hate crime cases. Prejudice has other forms than fear.

Also, just to clarify, I'm not trying to point a finger and yell at you and call you a homophobic liar, just annoyed with some of your logic and I am irked with how you didn't see sango's comments coming (or something similar) based on your language and attitude.

I personally don't find the show to be "pushing" LGBTQ topics or gender topics at all. We have one character who's had like a minute of screentime of people defending them from bullies across two different episodes plus maybe a 6 minute talk about gender identity in a third (this latest) episode. I think the whole dressing up to spy was slightly forced (mostly because the show assumed/set up the logic that any male spying on the new tennis guy would be a perv but any female spying wouldn't be, and to me that logic is just sort of bad), but the talk afterwards at least seemed to transition nicely and I like how it expanded upon Maki's mother's friend.

 
Dec 3, 4:46 PM
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Also, compounding on my problem with the spying thing, I do think it was sorta dumb that in the team's planning they said Mitsue couldn't do the spying because she didn't know enough about tennis to get useful information, which made it seem like the spying was just going to by eye only... and then when they actually went to spy, they just brought a camera instead and it's not like mitsue couldn't have just gone alone with a camera and they could have all just watched the footage later.

But yeah, I think the spying was forced, I don't think the gender identity talk was forced and I think it still fits in regardless of my problems with the spying.
 
Dec 3, 5:11 PM

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@Doggo_Plays I can see that but u can also understand that it did feel out of place in that point of time, I can see but calling me anti-gay is kinda idk weird.

I say that cause I know it annoys people like that XD she annoyed me so i wanted to annoy her back, i said that as a joke ik what it actually means im not dumb XD

i knew he was gay and such but at that moment i was out of place to me at least, I didnt hate what they were talking about just it didnt feel like the correct point of time, like I loved the second time they both talked about it and glad it was their.

and I never said that show was I was saying in that "moment" that "scene" not the entire anime, LGBTQ stuff is apart of youth now ig( i dont generally support this stuff but im not gonna hate on people who do like this or struggle with it as that is not right in my eyes) just want to clarify u can not support something and not hate it at the same time.
 
Dec 3, 5:37 PM

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Doggo_Plays said:
Zerity said:
imagine being so close minded that the simple saying of it was out of place makes me homophobic (which im not, gay people dont scare me), also the importance doesnt matter for the show, if it made sense to have like an 7-8 min talk right then I would be fine with it, if u read what i said later to someone else in here u would know this but u dont, its fine to have it but it was just hella out of place then and felt forced which is what i mean by pushing, the second time when the MC and him where talking after the fact I liked, it made sense and I liked what they were saying. Also im not anti-gay cause i dont like LGBTQ, (I love given, banana fish, yuri on ice, and sarazanmai)


You kinda said things a lot more than just that you thought it out of place by upping it to the show pushing LGBTQ "shit" on you, so I think you can at least understand why people would interpret your words the way they have.

I'm also sort of tired of people saying "I'm not homophobic because gays don't scare me." This is really not an issue that boils down to fear alone and there's a reason why the gay panic defense is utter trash in hate crime cases. Prejudice has other forms than fear.

Also, just to clarify, I'm not trying to point a finger and yell at you and call you a homophobic liar, just annoyed with some of your logic and I am irked with how you didn't see sango's comments coming (or something similar) based on your language and attitude.

I personally don't find the show to be "pushing" LGBTQ topics or gender topics at all. We have one character who's had like a minute of screentime of people defending them from bullies across two different episodes plus maybe a 6 minute talk about gender identity in a third (this latest) episode. I think the whole dressing up to spy was slightly forced (mostly because the show assumed/set up the logic that any male spying on the new tennis guy would be a perv but any female spying wouldn't be, and to me that logic is just sort of bad), but the talk afterwards at least seemed to transition nicely and I like how it expanded upon Maki's mother's friend.



@Zerity When I first read the LGBTQ "shit" comment, I honestly also thought you was homophobic. Some of the people I know who say stuff like that are usually homophobic, or don't support LGBT at the very least. The way I understood it, you didn't like how there's another LGBT moment in anime, and the LGBT keeps shoving their moments in the straights' throats. I thought it was like this because there was a tweet that became viral that said something similar to that. In regards to this, I think my reply was something like "You say that it's bad that the gays keep pushing what we want, which is to be normalized, even if we've done it for only a few years, but you straights have been pushing your "being not like us is abnormal" shit basically since the beginning on time, so I think there's something wrong with that." (this is not about you btw, just something that brought me to my misunderstanding of what you said.) But then I read your reply of how it was out of place, and I realized I misunderstood what you wanted to say. Sorry.

But also, straights being scared of gays? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Including myself, I've seen so many people being afraid of expressing themselves for who they are because the straights around us tell us it's abnormal, they judge us for it, and in the worst case scenario, they kill us for it.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying you're homophobic at all, but I'm just trying to explain my (and probably some of us) perspective on this part. But like Maki said, don't force yourself to understand, but at least try to put yourself in our shoes.

Quick Edit: I started writing this before I saw your reply to the Doggo dude, so my bad if I said something you already mentioned then.

Doggo_Plays said:
Also, compounding on my problem with the spying thing, I do think it was sorta dumb that in the team's planning they said Mitsue couldn't do the spying because she didn't know enough about tennis to get useful information, which made it seem like the spying was just going to by eye only... and then when they actually went to spy, they just brought a camera instead and it's not like mitsue couldn't have just gone alone with a camera and they could have all just watched the footage later.

But yeah, I think the spying was forced, I don't think the gender identity talk was forced and I think it still fits in regardless of my problems with the spying.


They probably couldn't let even Mitsue record it because she wouldn't know what and how to record him. They probably needed the perfect angle or something so that they can properly analyze his moments and his actions so that they can try to beat him in the match, and I don't think Mitsue would have known whether the recording was good enough for them.
Modified by jd2001z, Dec 3, 5:40 PM
 
Dec 3, 6:50 PM

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@jd2001z its all fine, i see how it can be seen this way and by by no means meant for it to be like that XD i see where u r coming from though
 
Dec 3, 8:49 PM
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I'm seriously loving the real LGBT+ discussions in this episode, it's refreshing and feels natural. I also really enjoyed Mitsue in this episode, it's nice to see her character beginning to express herself more.

The parents in this show though... it hurts my heart. Even so, I'm interested to learn more about them. I'm glad the friendship in the soft tennis club is so cute though, I love them all, they're so accepting and it makes me smile!!
 
Dec 4, 4:35 PM

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Doggo_Plays said:

Right now I feel that the narrative around Toma is still in pieces, and trying to figure it out is one of the things that I find compelling about the show.

Me too.

Doggo_Plays said:

In episode one, we have Maki having a two second flashback showing Toma as a young kid with a four leaf clover; in this scene I sort of get a vibe that Maki has good memories of Toma. However, later on Maki seems pretty cold to Toma. This might just be because Toma is being very severe/intense in his attempts to make sure Maki absolutely joins the club at all costs, but there also might be more to this.

Maki just settled in a new place. He was closed off and kept to himself. The soft tennis club was pretty much the last thing on his mind. And besides, his life was pretty busy with having to do all the household chores and groceries. That's.. I think was why he was giving Toma the cold shoulder. Back then, he was like Mitsue in some respects. Is that why she was initially drawn to him?

But like you said, Toma was very .. persistent.



Doggo_Plays said:

Later still, we get a flashback of young Maki with a bandaged cheek talking to Toma's brother. Of course, the book that Toma gave to Maki at the beginning of the first day of class is from Toma's brother, so we get a pretty clear sense that Toma's brother helped out Maki before when he was younger. It might be safe to assume that Maki's bandaged cheek in the flashback is an injury from his father, much like how Maki's father slaps him again at the very end of the episode. What exactly Toma's brother did to help Maki is a bit unknown though.

I get the sense that Ryouma as a character is there to help his brother. The show hasn't really delved in to their past, just small bits of flashback.

And like how did Ryouma know about Maki being back before Toma..



Doggo_Plays said:

Starting in I think episode 2, we get signs of other students being scared of Toma's anger or actions, hinting that Toma might have done something pretty notable in the past (the scene where the guys picking on Yuu run away after seeing Toma come to his defense is the clearest example of this).

Homophobic bullies are terrified of him..



Doggo_Plays said:

However, Toma is also the class president, and something about being a class president while having done something particularly violent seems a bit off to me? Maybe it's his status or his family's money that got him into the position, I'm really not sure...

Itsuki almost cracked a boy's skull open and didn't even get suspended..



Doggo_Plays said:

Of course, throughout the show we also see other small moments of Toma getting angry while playing tennis...

Toma is the captain of the boy's soft tennis team, so he's pretty 'involved'. He is under immense pressure, not just from the school but also at home, to succeed. I think that's driving alot of his anxiety. Whether his (short) temper during play is just part of his personality or caused by aforementioned, I'm not sure..

Doggo_Plays said:

The scene where Toma confronts Maki's father is still to me the most powerful moment in the show so far, and here I really felt both Toma's genuine desire to help his friends

Well, he is his precious doubles partner..



Doggo_Plays said:

and the quick temper and anger were combined together in a single moment,

This.. again? Like you wouldn't feel that shit when your precious doubles partner was being tormented..



Also, Maki was yelling at his father too..



..The second he sensed Toma was being threatened.

..And the first time he ever stood up to his father.

Probably just a coincidence..

Doggo_Plays said:

whereas elsewhere in the show we have these sides of Toma much more divided and shown separately I feel.

He usually only gets angry during club activities / games..

Doggo_Plays said:

In another episode, Toma's brother places a pendant with a four leaf clover on Toma's desk, presumably the same clover in the episode one flashback. Clearly the pendant means a lot, but we still have no idea what was done/said between Toma and Maki in the time surrounding that few second flashblack with the clover.

Like.. I'm pretty sure that pendant is a Memento MacGuffin so they'll probably bring it up at some point..

Also, why does Maki have Ryouma's mobile phone number..



Doggo_Plays said:

In episode seven with the barbecue we have the scene with Toma sitting alone, unsure of how to interact with anyone else when they are all having fun. And in general, other than that smiling two second flashback with the clover, I'm not sure we've actually seen any time where Toma is actually having fun. He's certainly dedicated about tennis and as an audience we can presume that he's having fun playing tennis, but at the same time I don't think we've seen him be truly happy about it and he seems to be more about protecting the club that his older brother is an alumni of and/or giving himself a distraction so he doesn't have to be around his mother so much. During the barbecue, Maki is obviously able to get on and have fun with everyone and he's overall shown as the character most able to make friends.

Toma is happiest when he's winning.

..

Or you know.. when he's (alone) with Maki.



Doggo_Plays said:

And now, finally, up to episode eight, at the end when Maki is talking to Mitsue, it is noted to Toma by a teammate that Maki is sort of just able to sense when things are bad and is able to tend to them and help out. At at first Toma agrees, but he then second guesses himself with a delayed "probably" that shows for that sliver in time Toma is thinking about something else. And I definitely wonder what that something else is...

He's holding out hope..?

Doggo_Plays said:

While Maki has been shown trying to help Yuu and Mitsue, it's also very clear that Toma has been trying to help out a number of people too, especially Maki when he confronted his father but also Yuu from the bullies.

True, true.

Doggo_Plays said:

I'd argue he was trying to help out Rintaro too after he shared he was adopted, though his words were pretty intense and heavy handed.

I think it hit a little close to home for him..

Doggo_Plays said:

In that respect, I'm not sure if Toma is maybe a bit jealous that Maki is sort of doing what he does, just better / with a more level head... OR... if Toma is jealous that Maki is able to "telepathically" read other people's problems and yet he hasn't been able to figure out the problems Toma has with his mother...

I'm not getting jealousy out of Toma..

Doggo_Plays said:

It's clear that Toma and his brother have some past history with Maki, but how much Maki knows about Toma's situation right now isn't apparent at all, and he might not know anything if we assume that Maki talked more to Toma's brother than to Toma himself when they were younger.

I think Toma just hides it well..

Doggo_Plays said:

Overall, I'm still not fully clear exactly why Toma's mom is afraid of him, and it sort of feels that we know more about their relationship through the dialogue his mother gives moreso than anything Toma himself has said.

She's not afraid of him, she sees him as a dissapointment.


Doggo_Plays said:

Sorry if this rant seems out of place, I've been lurking for a while and decided to take the plunge with my first post here. I've been really enjoying this anime and it's been giving me a lot of feels... definitely not all good feels but I think just having the feels has been able to help me work out some stuff with my own childhood experiences with domestic violence.

It's fine, although a little long..

Doggo_Plays said:

While a ton of people have commented on Maki's mary sueness and I can definitely agree to this on a number of levels, I do think Maki has some notable flaws too. He was a total prick / almost even a bully to the other players in the early episodes before he took this more compassionate turn (which was after Toma helped him).

That was calculated behaviour. He's in complete control of his emotions..



Well, except when it comes to his father.

Doggo_Plays said:

And I also think that it's very possible that Maki is completely missing / is oblivious to all of the struggles that Toma is having, even if he's good at spotting other people's struggles. More as a sidenote than anything though, I do want to also say that Maki being able to eloquently talk about gender identity like he did in this episode I don't really see as being THAT unbelievable, and I think younger kids these days (at least in the US) are educated or at least introduced to these concepts a lot more than in the past... I'm really not sure the age group of people replying here, but I definitely know of middle and high schoolers these days who are loads more aware than I was half a decade ago. And at the end of the day, I think we WANT more kids who are talking about this the way Maki does, and kids need to see it done right to even know what to do themselves. Maybe it is a tad unrealistic even despite my defense here, but I think it's doing more good than harm. And I personally at least don't view any of it as being overly "preachy." (I definitely do think some other mary sue critiques of Maki are warranted, and for me the biggest of these is just how insanely good he is at tennis as soon as he picks up a racket despite never playing any other sports).

Between Gen Z and for example Boomers, I'd put my money on Gen Z knowing more and being more accepting of people struggling with their gender identity. Even in a conservative country like Japan.
Modified by this_shit_again, Dec 4, 4:43 PM
 
Dec 4, 8:05 PM
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this_shit_again said:
Doggo_Plays said:

Right now I feel that the narrative around Toma is still in pieces, and trying to figure it out is one of the things that I find compelling about the show.

Me too.

Doggo_Plays said:

In episode one, we have Maki having a two second flashback showing Toma as a young kid with a four leaf clover; in this scene I sort of get a vibe that Maki has good memories of Toma. However, later on Maki seems pretty cold to Toma. This might just be because Toma is being very severe/intense in his attempts to make sure Maki absolutely joins the club at all costs, but there also might be more to this.

Maki just settled in a new place. He was closed off and kept to himself. The soft tennis club was pretty much the last thing on his mind. And besides, his life was pretty busy with having to do all the household chores and groceries. That's.. I think was why he was giving Toma the cold shoulder. Back then, he was like Mitsue in some respects. Is that why she was initially drawn to him?

But like you said, Toma was very .. persistent.



Doggo_Plays said:

Later still, we get a flashback of young Maki with a bandaged cheek talking to Toma's brother. Of course, the book that Toma gave to Maki at the beginning of the first day of class is from Toma's brother, so we get a pretty clear sense that Toma's brother helped out Maki before when he was younger. It might be safe to assume that Maki's bandaged cheek in the flashback is an injury from his father, much like how Maki's father slaps him again at the very end of the episode. What exactly Toma's brother did to help Maki is a bit unknown though.

I get the sense that Ryouma as a character is there to help his brother. The show hasn't really delved in to their past, just small bits of flashback.

And like how did Ryouma know about Maki being back before Toma..



Doggo_Plays said:

Starting in I think episode 2, we get signs of other students being scared of Toma's anger or actions, hinting that Toma might have done something pretty notable in the past (the scene where the guys picking on Yuu run away after seeing Toma come to his defense is the clearest example of this).

Homophobic bullies are terrified of him..



Doggo_Plays said:

However, Toma is also the class president, and something about being a class president while having done something particularly violent seems a bit off to me? Maybe it's his status or his family's money that got him into the position, I'm really not sure...

Itsuki almost cracked a boy's skull open and didn't even get suspended..



Doggo_Plays said:

Of course, throughout the show we also see other small moments of Toma getting angry while playing tennis...

Toma is the captain of the boy's soft tennis team, so he's pretty 'involved'. He is under immense pressure, not just from the school but also at home, to succeed. I think that's driving alot of his anxiety. Whether his (short) temper during play is just part of his personality or caused by aforementioned, I'm not sure..

Doggo_Plays said:

The scene where Toma confronts Maki's father is still to me the most powerful moment in the show so far, and here I really felt both Toma's genuine desire to help his friends

Well, he is his precious doubles partner..



Doggo_Plays said:

and the quick temper and anger were combined together in a single moment,

This.. again? Like you wouldn't feel that shit when your precious doubles partner was being tormented..



Also, Maki was yelling at his father too..



..The second he sensed Toma was being threatened.

..And the first time he ever stood up to his father.

Probably just a coincidence..

Doggo_Plays said:

whereas elsewhere in the show we have these sides of Toma much more divided and shown separately I feel.

He usually only gets angry during club activities / games..

Doggo_Plays said:

In another episode, Toma's brother places a pendant with a four leaf clover on Toma's desk, presumably the same clover in the episode one flashback. Clearly the pendant means a lot, but we still have no idea what was done/said between Toma and Maki in the time surrounding that few second flashblack with the clover.

Like.. I'm pretty sure that pendant is a Memento MacGuffin so they'll probably bring it up at some point..

Also, why does Maki have Ryouma's mobile phone number..



Doggo_Plays said:

In episode seven with the barbecue we have the scene with Toma sitting alone, unsure of how to interact with anyone else when they are all having fun. And in general, other than that smiling two second flashback with the clover, I'm not sure we've actually seen any time where Toma is actually having fun. He's certainly dedicated about tennis and as an audience we can presume that he's having fun playing tennis, but at the same time I don't think we've seen him be truly happy about it and he seems to be more about protecting the club that his older brother is an alumni of and/or giving himself a distraction so he doesn't have to be around his mother so much. During the barbecue, Maki is obviously able to get on and have fun with everyone and he's overall shown as the character most able to make friends.

Toma is happiest when he's winning.

..

Or you know.. when he's (alone) with Maki.



Doggo_Plays said:

And now, finally, up to episode eight, at the end when Maki is talking to Mitsue, it is noted to Toma by a teammate that Maki is sort of just able to sense when things are bad and is able to tend to them and help out. At at first Toma agrees, but he then second guesses himself with a delayed "probably" that shows for that sliver in time Toma is thinking about something else. And I definitely wonder what that something else is...

He's holding out hope..?

Doggo_Plays said:

While Maki has been shown trying to help Yuu and Mitsue, it's also very clear that Toma has been trying to help out a number of people too, especially Maki when he confronted his father but also Yuu from the bullies.

True, true.

Doggo_Plays said:

I'd argue he was trying to help out Rintaro too after he shared he was adopted, though his words were pretty intense and heavy handed.

I think it hit a little close to home for him..

Doggo_Plays said:

In that respect, I'm not sure if Toma is maybe a bit jealous that Maki is sort of doing what he does, just better / with a more level head... OR... if Toma is jealous that Maki is able to "telepathically" read other people's problems and yet he hasn't been able to figure out the problems Toma has with his mother...

I'm not getting jealousy out of Toma..

Doggo_Plays said:

It's clear that Toma and his brother have some past history with Maki, but how much Maki knows about Toma's situation right now isn't apparent at all, and he might not know anything if we assume that Maki talked more to Toma's brother than to Toma himself when they were younger.

I think Toma just hides it well..

Doggo_Plays said:

Overall, I'm still not fully clear exactly why Toma's mom is afraid of him, and it sort of feels that we know more about their relationship through the dialogue his mother gives moreso than anything Toma himself has said.

She's not afraid of him, she sees him as a dissapointment.


Doggo_Plays said:

Sorry if this rant seems out of place, I've been lurking for a while and decided to take the plunge with my first post here. I've been really enjoying this anime and it's been giving me a lot of feels... definitely not all good feels but I think just having the feels has been able to help me work out some stuff with my own childhood experiences with domestic violence.

It's fine, although a little long..

Doggo_Plays said:

While a ton of people have commented on Maki's mary sueness and I can definitely agree to this on a number of levels, I do think Maki has some notable flaws too. He was a total prick / almost even a bully to the other players in the early episodes before he took this more compassionate turn (which was after Toma helped him).

That was calculated behaviour. He's in complete control of his emotions..



Well, except when it comes to his father.

Doggo_Plays said:

And I also think that it's very possible that Maki is completely missing / is oblivious to all of the struggles that Toma is having, even if he's good at spotting other people's struggles. More as a sidenote than anything though, I do want to also say that Maki being able to eloquently talk about gender identity like he did in this episode I don't really see as being THAT unbelievable, and I think younger kids these days (at least in the US) are educated or at least introduced to these concepts a lot more than in the past... I'm really not sure the age group of people replying here, but I definitely know of middle and high schoolers these days who are loads more aware than I was half a decade ago. And at the end of the day, I think we WANT more kids who are talking about this the way Maki does, and kids need to see it done right to even know what to do themselves. Maybe it is a tad unrealistic even despite my defense here, but I think it's doing more good than harm. And I personally at least don't view any of it as being overly "preachy." (I definitely do think some other mary sue critiques of Maki are warranted, and for me the biggest of these is just how insanely good he is at tennis as soon as he picks up a racket despite never playing any other sports).

Between Gen Z and for example Boomers, I'd put my money on Gen Z knowing more and being more accepting of people struggling with their gender identity. Even in a conservative country like Japan.


So while I have enjoyed reading your posts in several weeks of these threads now, it seems like you're just making fun of me here.

:shrug:

Some of your points seem smug like you know more than I do, which is fine and eh whatever, some I want to disagree with, and others seem to be just comedic hyperbole. But I guess I don't really need to respond to things individually when the collective vibe is you just making fun of me.

Whatever, I still like the show and you seem to like it too so all g. Will be seeing you in a new one in half a day or so, take care mate.
 
Dec 5, 4:49 PM

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This episode made me tear up. It made me so happy. For everyone complaining about how the LGBT discussion was handled, shut the ever living fuck up. As a trans person who loves anime, this was the first anime to ever handle trans discussion the best. Before this episode, it was Lily from Zombieland Saga but even in that anime, they avoided terms and were extremely subtle so that there were still people who denied her being transgender. There is no question about what was being discussed in Stars Align. It's fucking fantastic. It feels good to have such great representation like this -- Maki's trans man friend is literally the first confirmed trans man in anime and he's not even a main character but you all want to act like it's "too much". I hope whatever Yu does or doesn't choose, they're at least happy. You're all just as bad as Yu's trash mother.
Modified by Jotakak, Dec 5, 4:52 PM
 
Dec 5, 4:57 PM

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Zerity said:
@Doggo_Plays I can see that but u can also understand that it did feel out of place in that point of time, I can see but calling me anti-gay is kinda idk weird.

I say that cause I know it annoys people like that XD she annoyed me so i wanted to annoy her back, i said that as a joke ik what it actually means im not dumb XD

i knew he was gay and such but at that moment i was out of place to me at least, I didnt hate what they were talking about just it didnt feel like the correct point of time, like I loved the second time they both talked about it and glad it was their.

and I never said that show was I was saying in that "moment" that "scene" not the entire anime, LGBTQ stuff is apart of youth now ig( i dont generally support this stuff but im not gonna hate on people who do like this or struggle with it as that is not right in my eyes) just want to clarify u can not support something and not hate it at the same time.

"I don't support that you exist but I don't hate you."
 
Dec 5, 5:45 PM

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@Jotakak thats not how it works
 
Dec 5, 6:01 PM

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Zerity said:
@Jotakak thats not how it works

Lol what you said is definitely not how it works.
 
Dec 5, 6:07 PM

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@Jotakak I said I dont support LGBTQ, meaning im not gonna be like yeah become trans and stuff like that, i dont generally care if someone is gay or not, im not agasint that but im not gonna say oh ya, thats the best shit ever.
 
Dec 5, 6:15 PM

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Zerity said:
@Jotakak I said I dont support LGBTQ, meaning im not gonna be like yeah become trans and stuff like that, i dont generally care if someone is gay or not, im not agasint that but im not gonna say oh ya, thats the best shit ever.

People don't become LGBT, they're born LGBT. LGBT people just want to exist and be treated like everyone else. No one is expecting you to feel like another gender or to be attracted to the same-sex but to just respect people enough to live authentically and not act as if it's a dirty life-style choice that you just want to look the other way on, y'know?
 
Dec 5, 6:22 PM

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@Jotakak i have a few LGBTQ ppl and know 1 person who is trans, and I dont say mean shit or treat them differently, im just not gonna like support it in generally. like its male, female, anything else is a mental disorder, but im not gonna hate on them
 
Dec 5, 6:31 PM

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Zerity said:
@Jotakak i have a few LGBTQ ppl and know 1 person who is trans, and I dont say mean shit or treat them differently, im just not gonna like support it in generally. like its male, female, anything else is a mental disorder, but im not gonna hate on them

Except, it's not a mental disorder? Doctors have already explained this? You might not actively abuse LGBT people but if you're close with some, not believing they exist is a way worse feeling. And I mean in the sense that they're identity is valid. One of my brothers insisted he supported me but he also believes it's a mental disorder. I didn't need his fake support. Please, especially since you have LGBT people in your life, educate yourself. Just do some more research. I'm not trying to be patronizing. I used to think just like you.
 
Dec 5, 6:43 PM

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@Jotakak makes sense, i have seen a video of a 60 year old man with 7 kids and a wife of 20 years and he was like oh, im a 6 year old now. stuff like that I dont support, but if my friend says hes gay (which some have told me) im like oh okay i respect u told me man, i support that and i dont hate that but the thing i mentioned i do not support, if u wanna say ur a girl but u were born a male, well im iffy on that, ik people who thought they were and the LGTB people were all supporting him and being like yeah join us, but after thought he realized he wasnt and the friends he thought he had just was like f u and left, granted i do know others that r happy now that they did that and I kinda support that, but im not gonna tell them to hop on that, cause some times its not the best choice. idk its a weird.
 
Dec 5, 7:10 PM

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Zerity said:
@Jotakak makes sense, i have seen a video of a 60 year old man with 7 kids and a wife of 20 years and he was like oh, im a 6 year old now. stuff like that I dont support, but if my friend says hes gay (which some have told me) im like oh okay i respect u told me man, i support that and i dont hate that but the thing i mentioned i do not support, if u wanna say ur a girl but u were born a male, well im iffy on that, ik people who thought they were and the LGTB people were all supporting him and being like yeah join us, but after thought he realized he wasnt and the friends he thought he had just was like f u and left, granted i do know others that r happy now that they did that and I kinda support that, but im not gonna tell them to hop on that, cause some times its not the best choice. idk its a weird.

People who claim to identify as a different age are not transgender. Don't associate them with us. They just make it harder for cis people to support trans people who are a scientifically proven thing that doctors support. Transgender is no longer labeled a mental disorder just like being gay isn't after more research was done. Sure, there will be people who are unsure about their gender and/or sexuality and might explore it a little and decide later whether they are or not but if they decide they're not, that shouldn't make others who decide they are any less valid.
 
Dec 5, 7:25 PM

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@Jotakak WHOOPS, i ddint say it fully he said hes a 6 year old girl, im not saying ima decided for them, let me put it this way, idc for LGBT ig, i dont support or not support, i sorta just like huh alright, im not gonna hate on people nor am i going to praise people for it. unless there crazy like that dude was, its more like that.
 
Dec 5, 7:50 PM

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Zerity said:
@Jotakak WHOOPS, i ddint say it fully he said hes a 6 year old girl, im not saying ima decided for them, let me put it this way, idc for LGBT ig, i dont support or not support, i sorta just like huh alright, im not gonna hate on people nor am i going to praise people for it. unless there crazy like that dude was, its more like that.

Yeah, that still isn't transgender. Maybe if they feel like a girl but certainly not age. They probably are dealing with something. If you don't not support LGBT then I don't suggest claiming it's a mental disorder. I really do recommend doing some research though to help you better understand.
 
Dec 6, 6:31 AM

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Kind of weird that homophobic/transphobic straight boys keep coming back to this show when there are at least 5 shounens with the big tiddies, the lolis, the assorted clothing fetishes and what have you running right now. I guess they don't keep them .. busy, like they used to.

 
Dec 6, 9:02 AM

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Good episode overall, and I'm pretty sure that a lot of japanese people who are more closed to the new era are like Yu's mother, probably watching this they'll see that it is bad to force into your kids what you think.
 
Dec 6, 4:23 PM

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@Jotakak
@this_shit_again

Hmm, research. Yes, you can find research on any topic though whether or not it is valid is an entirely different discussion. The thing about mental disorders is rarely will it be a black or white issue. The classification of certain disorders are debated to this day and it is a sensitive topic.

Anyways, I digress. I believe someone is completely justified in holding beliefs of transgenders being a mental disorder....as well as it not being one. Not everyone has to support and just because you don't support it doesn't automatically label someone as transphobic. An opinion is an opinion and as long as everyone let's everyone live their best life, respect their choices, and don't treat them any different in the end it's their own opinion so I would just drop this 'discussion'.

Don't you love it in forums when someone shares their own thoughts & opinion and then people try to shut them down, throw them out and slam some derogatory terms at them to silence them and teach them what's 'right' and 'wrong'. Ahhh, boy do I love the forums!! :'D

Modified by EarlCiel, Dec 6, 8:02 PM
 
Dec 6, 4:35 PM

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EarlCiel said:
Jotakak said:

Yeah, that still isn't transgender. Maybe if they feel like a girl but certainly not age. They probably are dealing with something. If you don't not support LGBT then I don't suggest claiming it's a mental disorder. I really do recommend doing some research though to help you better understand.


honestly, this sort of topic really is up in the air in terms of research (in other words, yes, there is research though is it a lot...? no. just like there is research on mental disorders (not saying it's correlated) but we still don't know a lot about mental disorders.

In fact, people are misdiagnosed quite frequently. A little bit off topic, but it's okay for someone to have certain opinions about subjects like this.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I personally believe many people miss the point of this lgbtq+ topic even being brought up in the first place in this episode...the message I think is that the world tries to label you and put you into categories and if you don't fit in you're treated like an outcast. Growing up is a fragile time where you are constructing your identity, doing a lot of self-discovery and you are still trying to figure out who you are...there is this pressure to fit in and to already know who you are so you can grow up quickly

This episode focused more on that topic. And yes, things that lgbtq+ individuals struggle with are part of this growing up identity struggle, but are NOT EXCLUSIVE to one group and the struggles are certainly very different...but I interpreted it as them trying to include this struggle to fit the theme of being 'outcasts' and 'labeled' by society.

Personally, I did feel at the moment it felt sort of out of place. I'm not going to lie. I am not angry they brought up issues LGBTQ+ teens struggle with, as a matter of fact, I am quite glad. It is not every day an anime will bring light to these issues and for that I am actually surprised and thankful. I am, however, not that happy about how the show seems to be reaching to far too many issues and topics, glancing over them, and using them for character development. I think at some point, when you reach for too much or bring in too much all of the themes become 'too much', mixed up, and what you are really trying to convey gets lost in a string up many different messages.

Variety, and diversity is actually realistic though...the execution is what I had a problem with in this episode. Something about how that scene was executed did feel off to me and felt more like a textbook definition rather than seeing the actual struggle of a character. That might be what sit wrong with me. There's telling someone's story and then showing it. With a show like this, you'd expect to see more of it shown though with limited episodes you really can only be told.

"Yu struggles with identifying as a boy or a girl and fits he does not fit in with either but feels pressured to conform to societal standards and is confused about who he wants to become" <--literally what that entire scene told us. Granted, they have been showing Yu's struggle throughout the series though something about it is being shoved in the audience's faces, if I had to give my personal interpretation of the scene and critique it.

Transgender is no longer classified as a mental disorder by the World Health Organization after tons of research and progress in the medical world.

Some online degenerate's opinion on the matter with absolutely no knowledge of the subject means shit.
Modified by Jotakak, Dec 6, 5:06 PM
 
Dec 6, 5:41 PM

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Jotakak said:

Transgender is no longer classified as a mental disorder by the World Health Organization after tons of research and progress in the medical world.


The reason WHO decided this classification is because they eliminated it since it was causing stigma. If you actually try to look up the research, none of it is absolutely conclusive evidence. If it is, then please do let me know why there are actual experts in the field who exist and actually disagree with WHO. I wouldn't call someone an online degenerate just because they may hold different views :)

Agencies that classify disorders or regulate guidelines are not always correct. I won't expand on that statement since it changes the topic of discussion but if you are curious to know why someone could actually refute that statement....:



Let's all just calm down + just respect the fact people might hold different views and opinions...hopefully everyone
can just be understanding of either side without having to resort to name-calling like 6 year olds :)

 
Dec 6, 5:53 PM

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EarlCiel said:
Jotakak said:

Transgender is no longer classified as a mental disorder by the World Health Organization after tons of research and progress in the medical world.


The reason WHO decided this classification is because they eliminated it since it was causing stigma. If you actually try to look up the research, none of it is absolutely conclusive evidence. If it is, then please do let me know why there are actual experts in the field who exist and actually disagree with WHO. I wouldn't call someone an online degenerate just because they may hold different views :)

Agencies that classify disorders or regulate guidelines are not always correct. I won't expand on that statement since it changes the topic of discussion but if you are curious to know why someone could actually refute that statement....:



Let's all just calm down + just respect the fact people might hold different views and opinions...hopefully everyone
can just be understanding of either side without having to resort to name-calling like 6 year olds :)


Transgender is now classified as a physical/sexual condition because there is nothing wrong with the brain itself. If you're going to equate transgender to being mentally ill as if that isn't worse than name calling then I'm going to call you a degenerate. I'll even add a smile, just for you. :) I'm not going to respect people who disrespect my community.
 
Dec 6, 5:57 PM

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Jotakak said:
EarlCiel said:


The reason WHO decided this classification is because they eliminated it since it was causing stigma. If you actually try to look up the research, none of it is absolutely conclusive evidence. If it is, then please do let me know why there are actual experts in the field who exist and actually disagree with WHO. I wouldn't call someone an online degenerate just because they may hold different views :)

Agencies that classify disorders or regulate guidelines are not always correct. I won't expand on that statement since it changes the topic of discussion but if you are curious to know why someone could actually refute that statement....:



Let's all just calm down + just respect the fact people might hold different views and opinions...hopefully everyone
can just be understanding of either side without having to resort to name-calling like 6 year olds :)


Transgender is now classified as a physical/sexual condition because there is nothing wrong with the brain itself. If you're going to equate transgender to being mentally ill as if that isn't worse than name calling then I'm going to call you a degenerate. I'll even add a smile, just for you. :) I'm not going to respect people who disrespect my community.

"I'm allowed to call you mentally ill because it's my opinion and you need to respect it BUT HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A MEAN NAME"
 
Dec 6, 6:35 PM

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Wow. Um, there seems to be a major misunderstanding on your part. First of all, there's something called gray areas in topics like mental disorders. If I were you I would google grey area topics. Learn to understand the fact they exist and maybe even for the first time in your life recognize what it is.

Secondly, there is also something called a civil discussion where name calling isn't even required to convey opinions.
I would recommend you learn how to be civil. Maybe then you can actually see what someone is trying to say to you!

Jotakak said:

"I'm allowed to call you mentally ill because it's my opinion and you need to respect it BUT HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A MEAN NAME"

^My case in point! :)

I do not know why on earth you are getting defensive. If you look closely at my responses, nowhere in my argument do I say that transgender people have a mental disorder...and nor am I supporting that belief. I personally do not believe they do have a mental disorder. What I am trying to do is help you understand why someone would have a different opinion than you and I am trying to defend someone for having their own opinion. Having a different belief doesn't label someone as transphobic. I personally think you should learn to respect whoever you are having a discussion with even if they do hold different beliefs than you.

Hopefully we can move on and this discussion can now be about the anime.
Not about you because not everything is about you (sorry to break it to you) :)

**smiley face is added maybe because maybe I'm not civil either HAHA or I'm 100% done with this it was a nice lil convo.

**Also for future references, your second post can be interpreted as stigmatizing mental illnesses.
There's nothing wrong with having one and NO...I'm not saying you have one. -_- What I am actually trying
to say is for anyone who does...it's a part of their reality and it is a struggle. Everyone has different struggles.
To be labeled mentally ill or even diagnosed with a disorder is not something that should be seen as an insult or very negative
 
Dec 6, 7:25 PM

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EarlCiel said:
Wow. Um, there seems to be a major misunderstanding on your part. First of all, there's something called gray areas in topics like mental disorders. If I were you I would google grey area topics. Learn to understand the fact they exist and maybe even for the first time in your life recognize what it is.

Secondly, there is also something called a civil discussion where name calling isn't even required to convey opinions.
I would recommend you learn how to be civil. Maybe then you can actually see what someone is trying to say to you!

Jotakak said:

"I'm allowed to call you mentally ill because it's my opinion and you need to respect it BUT HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A MEAN NAME"

^My case in point! :)

I do not know why on earth you are getting defensive. If you look closely at my responses, nowhere in my argument do I say that transgender people have a mental disorder...and nor am I supporting that belief. I personally do not believe they do have a mental disorder. What I am trying to do is help you understand why someone would have a different opinion than you and I am trying to defend someone for having their own opinion. Having a different belief doesn't label someone as transphobic. I personally think you should learn to respect whoever you are having a discussion with even if they do hold different beliefs than you.

Hopefully we can move on and this discussion can now be about the anime.
Not about you because not everything is about you (sorry to break it to you) :)

**smiley face is added maybe because maybe I'm not civil either HAHA or I'm 100% done with this it was a nice lil convo.

**Also for future references, your second post can be interpreted as stigmatizing mental illnesses.
There's nothing wrong with having one and NO...I'm not saying you have one. -_- What I am actually trying
to say is for anyone who does...it's a part of their reality and it is a struggle. Everyone has different struggles.
To be labeled mentally ill or even diagnosed with a disorder is not something that should be seen as an insult or very negative

There's nothing wrong with having a mental illness but trying to say transgender is one is basically saying 'you're not actually a girl like you feel, you're just mentally unwell' and there's a difference between that and anxiety or depression.

Also, GTFO if all you're doing is playing devil's advocate. You do more harm than good. You're no ally and there is no mutual territory.
 
Dec 6, 7:29 PM

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@Jotakak
Here's a real thought for you to take home- learn to grow up so you dont have to tell people to get out and attack others just for stating their opinion! :)

Have a good day! And I won't get out, everyone is welcome to discuss on the forum whether you like it or not! Sorry to break it to you & hurt your feelings!

Edit: Upon reflection, I do understand issues being close to heart and I am actually sorry for any hate or offense you might have interpreted. There was no intention or effort on my part to convey that and if you sensed it in any way I am really sorry. I edited my posts before maybe in an effort to clarify my points but now I am editing just so I can make it clear to you what my intention has been all along. I will not sit here and act like there aren't people who are perhaps bigots, haters, and they may even be experts in this field, but I believe the very fact that someone may hold a different opinion does not suddenly label them as these people. If you have a problem with this, well I know you do since you have made that very clear, but this is just my personal opinion. I thank you for your suggestion for me to do more research. I will do more research. I would also suggest you do research as well and recognize the fact that people can hold different beliefs without being offensive or interfering with people's decisions and lives.You seem to be confused how anyone can think differently so, if you are curious I would encourage you to do that research.

Now if you want to repeat the same things to me and have me repeat the same things to you, then fine. I'm pretty sure by now we both have gotten our points across and I thank you for letting your thoughts known as they, too, are completely valid and your concerns are real. None of what I say is to invalidate your words, but an effort for discussion. I for one am pretty much done and it was an interesting discussion. I don't want to make it seem like I am editing to 'make myself look better', since I will be the first to admit I did handle the discussion uncivilly at points and was quite immature. We must accept the fact that you probably will keep holding onto your beliefs and I with mine. I actually will be doing more research in this subject despite already feeling that being transgender is not a mental disorder, simply so I can be more informed and have more productive discussions. I am not the type of person that questions all knowledge, even medically established facts, though I would like to at least understand why a certain conclusion was established, and understand both sides so I can be more well-informed on topics, so that is why I personally will be doing more research. Have a good day!
Modified by EarlCiel, Yesterday, 10:13 AM
 
Dec 6, 7:31 PM

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EarlCiel said:

Here's a real thought for you to take home- learn to grow up so you dont have to tell people to get out and attack others just for stating their opinion! :)

Have a good day!

Don't have trash opinions that further stigmatize transgender people which does nothing but fuel hatred that leads to violence that gets my trans siblings murdered on a weekly basis :)
 
Dec 6, 7:38 PM

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EarlCiel said:
@Jotakak
Here's a real thought for you to take home- learn to grow up so you dont have to tell people to get out and attack others just for stating their opinion! :)

Have a good day! And I won't get out, everyone is welcome to discuss on the forum whether you like it or not! Sorry to break it to you & hurt your feelings!

Edit: it looks like you wont grow up so I won't even bother wasting my time talking to a kid who is 100% pulling things from their butthurt ass. All because people have different opinions from them. How unfortunate. I really do sincerely hope you grow up.

Lol @ the person acting like a kid, editing a comment instead of quoting. You're the one that's pulling shit from your ass. I get paid to do educational presentations at colleges about this topic but sure, go off. Have a pleasant day. <3
 
Dec 6, 7:43 PM

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@EarlCiel

You'd just ignore it and tell me to grow up because that's all you know how to say instead of coming up with an actual geniune response :)

Also, you're the one that's not spreading love and acceptance. Instead, you're defending bigotry. You're the one that should grow up and get a life. Spend your time doing something actually worth while.

Edit: Stop editing your responses w/o saying they're edited 10x after I've already responded to make yourself sound better lmao

Like I said, I'm angry because it's your ignorance that further fuels others' ignorance that actually leads to trans people d y i n g ! Really, truly, honestly suggest educating yourself. Thanks for this wonderful, thought-provoking discussion about my existence!
Modified by Jotakak, Dec 6, 9:24 PM
 
Dec 6, 11:12 PM

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I'm going to re-post my thoughts about this episode here (slightly edited for grammar stuff) since there was a lot of off topic discussion above:

I personally believe many people miss the point of this LGBTQ+ topic even being brought up in the first place in this episode...the message I think is that the world tries to label you and put you into categories and if you don't fit in you're treated like an outcast. Growing up is a fragile time where you are constructing your identity and you are still trying to figure out who you are...there is this pressure to fit in and to already know who you are so you can grow up quickly. This episode focused more on that topic. And yes, issues that lgbtq+ individuals struggle with are part of this growing up identity struggle, but I think the message they are trying to spread is that it is not necessarily completely exclusive to one group. Undeniably, yes of course, the struggles are certainly very different...but I think they mentioned it to fit in with this overall theme of being 'outcasts' and 'labeled' by society.

I read how a lot of people feel bringing this topic is out of place. Personally, I did feel at the moment it did feel a little bit out of place. I'm not going to lie. I am not angry they brought up issues LGBTQ+ teens struggle with, as a matter of fact, I am actually quite glad. It is not every day an anime will bring light to these issues, like yes there may be homosexual characters but very rarely are their struggles explained in depth like this episode. And for that, I am actually surprised and thankful this issue is being brought to light. I am, however, not super happy about how the show seems to be reaching to far too many issues and topics, glancing over them, and using them for character development. It is just my personal opinion that I think at some point, when you reach for too much or bring in too many themes...it becomes 'too much', mixed up, and you lose what you are really trying to convey since you just have this string of so many messages.

That being said, variety, and diversity actually makes it realistic since everyone really does have different struggles. The execution is what I had a problem with in this episode. Something about how that scene was executed did feel off to me and felt more like a textbook definition rather than seeing the actual struggle of a character. That might be what sit wrong with me. There's telling someone's story and then showing it. With a show like this, you'd expect to see more of it shown though with limited episodes you really can only be told.

"Yu struggles with identifying as a boy or a girl and feels he does not fit in with either label but feels pressured to conform to societal standards and is confused about who he wants to become" <--literally what that entire scene told us. And it was interesting because Maki told us Shou's story which we were supposed to connect to Yu's though I thought the show would want to focus on the cast rather than...idk some supporting character we didn't even really know the name of (Shou). Granted, they have been showing Yu's struggle throughout the series though something about it is being shoved in the audience's faces, told by Maki of all people...idk it just feels off for someone other than Yu to be the main focus of that discussion and that felt off to me.

Overall, I am looking forward to how this anime will try to finish off and tie all these themes and drama going on...or will it?
 
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EarlCiel said:

Hmm, research. Yes, you can find research on any topic though whether or not it is valid is an entirely different discussion.

Oh, okay, so now we're questioning the scientific method and community too. There's a whole system of checks and balances within the scientific community. If you have valid criticism, there's a process.

EarlCiel said:

The thing about mental disorders is rarely will it be a black or white issue.

Being transgender is not a mental disorder, so that point is moot.

EarlCiel said:

Anyways, I digress. I believe someone is completely justified in holding beliefs of transgenders being a mental disorder....

Justified, no. Not according to transgender people and not according to experts.

EarlCiel said:

as well as it not being one.

Well, it's not, so that's an easy choice to make.

EarlCiel said:

Not everyone has to support and just because you don't support it doesn't automatically label someone as transphobic.

You don't support 'it'.. The 'it' being their right to exist. But that's exactly what a transphobe is..



EarlCiel said:

An opinion is an opinion and as long as everyone let's everyone live their best life, respect their choices, and don't treat them any different in the end it's their own opinion so I would just drop this 'discussion'.

Yes, and in a perfect world..



Like, do you automatically assume people are this naive..

As if your opinions don't shape your decision making. And it becomes a particular problem for transgender people when transphobes are in a position of power, like being in charge of the hiring decisions for a company.

Oh, and it's not a choice, it's their identity.

EarlCiel said:

Don't you love it in forums when someone shares their own thoughts & opinion and then people try to shut them down, throw them out and slam some derogatory terms at them to silence them and teach them what's 'right' and 'wrong'. Ahhh, boy do I love the forums!! :'D

Okay, I see you're trying to present yourself and others who harbor this hate as a victim, but..



You keep perpetuating this false belief that being transgender is a mental disorder even though leading bodies have already declared otherwise. One can only see this as an effort to keep the stigmatisation of transgender people alive even though the world is finally moving to be more accepting of them.
 
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based nb representation 😤
 
Yesterday, 9:59 AM

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@this_shit_again

I'm sorry that despite repeating myself several times, it seems to still not have been made clear at this point. I stick by what I have been saying and will not repeat myself. You seem to be repeating points too at this point. The sense of justice you hold silencing people's opinions, and quite honestly, any opinion that differ from yours sounds like a personal problem and so, I will be choosing to disengage from this conversation.

 
Yesterday, 12:33 PM

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This was a great episode and for a hot minute I thought that weird kid was about to murder An
I'm so glad he didn't that would've turned the whole story around
I'd give it a 8/10
 
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