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Nov 26, 2019 10:41 AM
#51
@ItsaNico here ya go: Regardless, it's unquestionable that you can be perfectly healthy as a vegan if you planned the diet correctly("Vegetarian and vegan diets can be healthy, but they can lack certain nutrients. You may have to use a little creativity to ensure you get enough protein, calcium, iron, and vitamin B12.") "The way markets work isn't just a gradual displacement, usually it's much more like sudden drops that lead to spiral downs." Keyword: "usually" In this case, people would change their diets slowly. Not everyone is going to turn vegan straight away or at all. The market isn't going to plummet in a matter of days realistically. They aren't going to be slaughtered in mass any more than they are being now. Continuing to breed cows more to meet meat demands is going to obviously cause more deaths than the last rounds of cows that are left being slaughtered. Not only that but the conditions are notoriously terrible in those farms for both the animals and the workers(https://scholar.colorado.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2157&context=honr_theses). The work would just change if this was to happen as now vegan replacements would sweep the market and offer them new jobs. The decrease of feed farmers would just switch its focus and adapt to using the crops to feed the population instead of cows. Especially going into your next argument that the land for cattle wouldn't be sold off to use for crops. This would be fine. Fewer crops would now be needed to feed the population as a lot of those crops went to the cattle, over their lifetime so people could eat meat("More than half the U.S. grain and nearly 40 percent of world grain is being fed to livestock rather than being consumed directly by humans"). We really don't need any of the cattle land for even more crops. He already said that it wasn't going to happen anytime in the future and no one in this thread claimed nut milk is going to replace animal milk. You guys are talking about a hypothetical "what if" situation here. It's a what would happen if everyone did go vegan. Wdym: "no this would never happen, you're being naive"? You've been arguing this with him. I started this a lot earlier, but since I already worked on it a good bit beforehand and it differed enough from Orhunaa's response I'm going to post it(you don't need to respond if you don't want to). |
Nov 26, 2019 10:48 AM
#52
Nov 26, 2019 11:44 AM
#53
Veneficia said: Bobby2Hands said: Veneficia said: Bobby2Hands said: Veneficia said: Bobby2Hands said: Veneficia said: Cross contamination is b.s Remind me to never eat anything from your fridge, I'm not a big fan of salmonella. Are you so poor not to afford Ziploc bags? Why would you bother with ziploc bags if cross contamination is BS? Just store your raw chicken with your vegetables, I'm sure it'll be fine, after all cross contamination is just BS. In the context of cooking it is. No, no it's not. No self respecting chef would ever cross contaminate meat. Let's say a restaurant cooks shellfish in the same pan they cook the beef in, sooner or later someone with a shellfish allergy will order the beef and get extremely sick. Honestly it's crazy that you don't think cross contamination is an issue, your momma should have taught you better. It's a burger king what do you expect? Gordan Ramsey ? Also if you're allergic to things you should simply die. Your goal post shifting now. You went from cross contamination doesn't exist to "its burger king lol." That being said unless this person has allergies to meat I dont think they should make that big of a deal from it. |
"among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus |
Nov 26, 2019 1:48 PM
#54
I already knew it was cooked on the char broiler same as where the meat goes. It says in fine print you have to request it be cooked a different way away from the meat and they will do that. I haven't tried the burger yet. The patties are made by Impossible Foods thus the name of the Impossible Whopper. |
Nov 26, 2019 4:27 PM
#55
ItsaNico said: What most people in the general population know is irrelevant. What people who commercially prepare food know or should know is what's relevant. BK chose to ignore a basic rule of veggie food prep, presumably assuming that their clientele wouldn't care. They were wrong and this fiasco is theirs to own and learn from. Josh said: Because most of the pop is non-vegan and are the ones operating the grill, most people don't realise you also can't cook on "meat contaminated" surfaces to stay vegan. And BK didn't tell people to make it a point of offering to microwave the fake burgers probably because they rightly assumed that would likely just piss off vegans anyways. This whole fiasco was bound to go up in smoke eventually. How is it possible that a large restaurant chain doesn't know or care about the absolute basics of preparing vegetarian/vegan food? I guess they just assumed that no "serious" veggie would eat there anyways? Weird. (Also, the ongoing legalization of life is ridiculous.) All it would've taken is one mad vegan moaning how they wouldn't stop all production to clean the broiler off for their one singular burger to get everyone in that community riled up about it because lets be real, no BK is gonna stop making beef burgers to appease a single customer. That would wreak the entire day's operation and the people who'd pay for it are the poor staff that are already beat up on by management. Medical dietary restrictions are one thing, personal dietary restrictions are another. BK should have just stayed out of the fake burger game, the cash grab was never worth it. That said, I doubt the CA is gonna make it far precisely because it's ridiculous. I don't see how they'll argue false advertising on the merit of the broiler when the only advertisement was that the burger did not contain meat. Consumers also have a responsibility of due diligence, so they should have asked about prep or checked the fine print. 149597871 said: This is an interesting thought experiment, but it bears little resemblance to the real diets of typical vegetarians, vegans and omnivores. Not trying to fan any flames here (I eat meat, lol), but typical vegetarian and vegan diets definitely have significantly lower environmental impacts than typical omnivorous diets. There are exceptions (e.g. the omnivore that only eats roadkill and the vegan who scarfs down avocados while chugging almond milk), but they prove the rule.As for the environment, it heavily disregards the improvements that can be made in the industry, the cost of raising and transporting the vegetables as well as many other factors. Technically speaking I might be able to raise, kill and eat an animal in a way that is more eco-friendly than the avocado you ate yesterday. |
JoshNov 26, 2019 4:42 PM
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
Nov 26, 2019 5:29 PM
#56
@Peaceful_Critic I largely don't consider the ethics of the animals as above the effects changes will have on human populations. I understand and respect the concerns about ethical consumption, but I weight it differently. Thus why I support such things as lab meat (and vertical farming too, as a way to give more food agency to urban areas, but that's a different thread) though I don't support mass veganism, lab meat would largely maintain the meat industry and reduce the economic effects of any sudden market shifts. I was using the farmers and ranchers as an example of taking a narrow view of the outer ripples, though I also believe that milk is good so ranchers and feed farmers would still have something to produce. Systemic stability almost always is of higher importance than anything else. (On milk, our science folks are trying to figure out how to engineer cows to produce milk that is fortified like a certain insect can produce, therefore I'd like milk to stick around because that would be of great benefit to fighting malnourishment the world over. Magic science cows is a phrase I want to keep.) @Bayek don't knock em till you try em fam. Fry them in fat, nice and crispy. I'd also recommend frogs, they're better than chicken. @Josh you maybe got me on the prep thing but my point was that the people who work at BK are obviously from the general pop and not usually highly trained cook staff like in an actual restaurant. I doubt any of them even need ServSafe certs, I've certainly never seen any on the walls of any BK I've been to. And as I've mentioned, BK Corporate mentions on the webpage that it can be prepared in a microwave to avoid meat products. Each individual BK location is usually owned privately, and most of knowing the veggie prep stuff is down to that location to deal with. They aren't gonna have separate gear for a single menu item, and at the top of things if you don't request separate prep you won't get it. I'd figure most vegans would be well aware they are in foreign territory and thinking about if the burgers and fake meat-replaced burgers are cooked together. The burden lies more on the consumer, being a lazy idiot doesn't mean you get to sue someone over hurt feelings which is what the CA amounts to. |
Nico nico ni~eed a siggy like the all the cool kids Really wish we had a rep system so I could farm it and spam rep+ |
Nov 26, 2019 5:37 PM
#57
Nov 26, 2019 7:28 PM
#58
traed said: I already knew it was cooked on the char broiler same as where the meat goes. It says in fine print you have to request it be cooked a different way away from the meat and they will do that. I haven't tried the burger yet. The patties are made by Impossible Foods thus the name of the Impossible Whopper. Impossible Burgers are pretty lit. Only criticism I have is they feel a little less juicy than a real well cooked burger. Better than Beyond Meat burgers at least. |
Nov 26, 2019 9:13 PM
#59
Orhunaa said: @149597871 Trace element is defined as 10^-6 grams per gram as I checked just now. Which is 0.2 miligrams in 200 grams. It more than suffices if there's a few little parts in the size of bread crumbs or even smaller. Yes, I already said I agree with you on that one. There's no need to prove me that you are wrong. Orhunaa said: Here you go for sustainability and starvation. A meat-eater’s diet requires 17 times more land, 14 times more water and 10 times more energy than a vegetarian’s, according to research published by The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. This is principally because we use a large proportion of the world’s land for growing crops to feed livestock, rather than humans. (Of the world’s approximately five billion hectares of agricultural land, 68% is used for livestock.) That seems rather accurately calculated but it's not the case as thousands of factors are most likely neglected, just as my criticism towards towards both industries in my previous post. Apparently it is from more than 15 years ago where many of these factors might not have been present in the first place. I sense pseudoscience and ignorance in order to push an irrational belief system. As I said I can raise a cow in a less harmful for the environment way than the average vegans salad but we'll get to that later on. Orhunaa said: Funnily enough I used the word bad so you guys wouldn't accuse me of equating it with rape again. I was thinking moreso horrendous or abhorrent. No, "bad" is just a word that kids and infantile adults use and should never be used to prove a logical point. "The lion is bad for eating other animals.", "X is bad for starting a war.", "You are bad.". You can do better than that. This isn't the kindergarten. Orhunaa said: My logical argument is that if you want to be consistent, you should establish a logical ground for justifying the different treatment we have for humans and non-human animals. If this ground doesn't exist, it means it's arbitrary. Then just as someone decides to eat non-human animals and not humans, others could do the opposite and we couldn't argue against it. To summarize it, there is no logical argument or whatsoever and my "logical ground" was firmly established in my previous post. Orhunaa said: In simpler terms, give me a property that non-human animals possess which, if a human possessed, it would be fine to do the same thing to them as we do to non-human animals. Edgy :)) We should do all in our power in order to preserve and advance our civilization before thinking about inferior species and their feelings. The property is being a human. But just for the record if other species advance to the point where they can prey on us, I will be completely fine with that despite being a retarded comparison as humans are significantly more advanced and intelligent than any other species we are aware of not to mention that unlike the rest we have an actual civilization. Orhunaa said: It is linked with lower rates of cancer, diabetes and coronary heart diseases. This last study also seems to find relatively higher risk of strokes (3 for every 1000 people more) but is a lot smaller than the decrease in cardiovascular diseases (10 for every 1000 people less) Are you trolling at this point? These sources aren't even remotely close to being factual or scientific. The only exception is theguardian but the title is literally "Being vegetarian 'lowers heart disease risk but increases chance of stroke'". Okay. Anyway, this isn't even true technically: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/142427.php#1 (a source that is actually reputable) "UK researchers found that vegetarians had a lower overall cancer rate than meat eaters, but contrary to suggestions from other studies, they found a higher rate of colorectal cancer among the vegetarians than among the meat eaters." I mean if you want to die from a very specific cancer then perhaps going vegan is a good choice but the thing is that neither of these researches is very accurate. The reason for that is that they are comparing the average vegan diet that has to be very well balanced in order to work to the average meat eater diet that isn't even close to being balanced. Besides the main factors for diabetes is the sugar intake (not an animal products) and the way the meat is cooked which is often unhealthy because of the use of certain plant-based oils (not an animal product). However meat eaters usually get away even with a bad diet because of the fact that meat is simply a very nutritious superfood. A balanced normal diet is superior to a balanced vegan diet in almost every aspect assuming that it contains the right ingredients and the food is prepared in the right way. Orhunaa said: The only thing I do different now for my health is consuming some fortified vegan products. I'm not carrying a list of all the vitamins and minerals I must get and choose my meal based on them or something. It really isn't that hard. Yes, the idiots guide to having an online debate "I do Y and I'm perfectly okay so doing Y is fine". There are people drinking MMS who are still healthy, good way to prove a point. Also you are relatively young. Come back when you are 40 along with a few thousand of your vegan friends and we may talk. Orhunaa said: As for transportation of food, there's vertical farming which aims to eliminate this problem and grow plants in unsuitable environments and where arable farmland is scarce. I'm pretty sure that growing plants in an environment that isn't optimal for that particular plant is a recipe for disaster as the sheer amount of resources, care and sometimes land it requires increases drastically but my opinion is heavily based on science and common sense which have been around for hundreds of years so it might be a bit outdated. But yes, if you want to destroy the local environment for the sake of pleasing your own needs while pretending you've ascended on a whole new moral level it's fine. Vertical farming or not this isn't the brightest of ideas. Culture shouldn't dictate morality. Taste shouldn't either. Neither should you. A bit of inconvenience doesn't kill anyone Then come visit me using nothing but a bicycle and a rowboat. I've offered this to many vegans but for some reason nobody showed up. Weird, I thought inconvenience isn't a problem. |
149597871Nov 27, 2019 7:40 AM
Nov 26, 2019 9:16 PM
#60
deg said: lol it's because this is the US that I think they will win the case.lol thats ridiculous this has zero chance of winning but if it does win then lol the justice system there in USA is not as good as i thought it is |
Nov 26, 2019 11:46 PM
#61
This is so ridiculous I don't even know what to say... |
Nov 26, 2019 11:56 PM
#62
BK actually does have the best veggie burgers. But actually they closed down the only one near me so I won't be having them any more xD WHO SUES ANY MORE, REALLY?!?!? |
I CELEBRATE myself, And what I assume you shall assume, For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you. |
Nov 27, 2019 8:54 AM
#63
@ItsaNico Well, that's part of my point. If the world did switch to being vegan, it would be fine as the market would naturally adapt to new products and that the previous work in the slaughterhouse put them in terrible conditions(which is what I linked before, though it was quite long). As was specified here: " Despite OSHA specifications, work conditions of slaughterhouses are very demanding, high risk, and can take a physiological as well as a psychological toll on the worker. Human Rights Watch reports slaughterhouse jobs as having “extraordinarily high rates of injury” as employees have to cut meat at the conveyor line at a specific, constant speed (New York Times, 2005). Labeled one of the most dangerous jobs in America, meatpacking has an injury risk rate three times higher than the injury risk rate of a typical American factory (Schlosser, 2002)."-pg 23 This is a repeat you seem as though you, so you don't need to argue on this if you don't want to. Anyway, I understand where you are coming from and it's justified putting humans above animals, but where I disagree is that they would be a big loss for humans in that situation. "therefore I'd like milk to stick around because that would be of great benefit to fighting malnourishment the world over." It would be? How? As I said before a lot of the crops are fed to livestock, so the population, on the whole, would have more food if we weren't feeding it to cattle. |
removed-userNov 27, 2019 8:57 AM
Nov 27, 2019 9:43 AM
#64
@Peaceful_Critic the reason they even work those jobs is it's the job they could get. It isn't guaranteed they can find another so the risk of joblessness is greater than the gain of not having slaughterhouse workers in harsh conditions. Even more so when the problem isn't the job itself but employers refusing to follow OSHA standards that would improve hazardous conditions tremendously in order to gain higher output. As for my milk comment, an engineered bug-cow milk hybrid would be far more useful than mere crops that are likely to be a grain or cereal because of it's caloric density. Malnourishment is one part nutrient deficit and one part caloric deficit. The pecking order is absolute calories, then macros, then nutritional sufficiency. These hybrid milks or even just the crystals used as supplement can hit the first and last, alleviating caloric deserts while providing the best source of protein we've identified yet. Toss in a vitamin and you're good to go. |
Nico nico ni~eed a siggy like the all the cool kids Really wish we had a rep system so I could farm it and spam rep+ |
Nov 27, 2019 10:56 AM
#65
@ItsaNico Eh, the slaughterhouse can fire people at will and it actually has one of the highest turnover rates: "as “at-will” employees (employee can be let go at any time) (Schlosser, 2002)"-pg 22 "Slaughterhouses have one of the highest employee turnover rates, often exceeding 100% annually due to these poor conditions (Human Rights Watch)"-pg 22 Which means it isn't a stable job at all, and the workers have hated the treatment they got so much, they left. So really it might be better if the job went altogether. "Even more so when the problem isn't the job itself but employers refusing to follow OSHA standards that would improve hazardous conditions tremendously in order to gain higher output." That's the issue, the employers don't care whatsoever about their employees, so the conditions would continue to be an issue. The fact they can be in business still despite clearly not following standards is horrifying. The OSHA makes it so employers have to comply. They are supposed to reinforce it(https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs). This obviously isn't an underground industry that wouldn't get this checked on, so why is this continuing to happen? Part of the problem might be that the physiological damage of doing the job caused inherently from killing animals for a living: "In Perpetration-Induced Traumatic Stress: The Psychological Consequences of Killing, the study by Rachel M. MacNair describes Perpetration-Induced Traumatic Stress as a form of post-traumatic stress disorder with symptoms of drug and alcohol abuse, panic, depression, paranoia, dissociation, anxiety, and depression stemming from the act of killing."-pg 26 Another part is definitely the penalty just mostly being fines(https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/oshact/section_17), so big corporations could get away relatively scot-free. Oh, I misunderstood you, sorry. Yeah, that sounds pretty ideal. |
Nov 27, 2019 4:13 PM
#66
No more beef and pork for you. |
Life Is Short But Intense. |
Nov 27, 2019 6:43 PM
#67
Something doesn't make sense about this. If someone doesn't eat meat for ethical reasons, then the contamination shouldn't be an issue. The burger isn't made out of meat. By purchasing it, you're still making a monetary statement that supports your cause. If someone is doing it for health reasons... why the fuck are they eating at a fast food restaurant? I agree that BK shouldn't be able to advertise it as meat free if there is indeed meat contamination. But at the same time a vegan who chooses to eat at a fast food restaurant... well, I'll bite my tongue there, but honestly anyone who eats fast food should know they're making a shitty life choice lol. |
“In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” -Friedrich Nietzsche Aggregate scoring is bad for the anime fandom |
Nov 28, 2019 9:38 AM
#68
Only here to read the arguments. Very entertaining, lol. I wish I have enough money to sue a restaurant for cooking my prefered diet wrong. Though even if I have enough money for it, I'd probably rather spend it on buying from a restaurant that serve my prefered diet correctly. |
OTP: KidLaw | IzuKatsu | GureShin | EruRi | AoKi | See more! » My art » My translation » Doujinshi collection » Favorite Kurobas doujinshi BISHIES X RAP |
Nov 28, 2019 9:49 AM
#69
Shicchi said: Only here to read the arguments. Very entertaining, lol. I wish I have enough money to sue a restaurant for cooking my prefered diet wrong. Though even if I have enough money for it, I'd probably rather spend it on buying from a restaurant that serve my prefered diet correctly. Actually, I don't mind vegan as long as hey don't force their diet on other people tbh (and cause inconvenience and harm to others). If they want to convince people to convert, they should stop doing something like this and actually work to make actual prove that can back up their arguments... |
OTP: KidLaw | IzuKatsu | GureShin | EruRi | AoKi | See more! » My art » My translation » Doujinshi collection » Favorite Kurobas doujinshi BISHIES X RAP |
Nov 29, 2019 7:51 AM
#70
hazarddex said: Veneficia said: Bobby2Hands said: Veneficia said: Bobby2Hands said: Veneficia said: Bobby2Hands said: Veneficia said: Cross contamination is b.s Remind me to never eat anything from your fridge, I'm not a big fan of salmonella. Are you so poor not to afford Ziploc bags? Why would you bother with ziploc bags if cross contamination is BS? Just store your raw chicken with your vegetables, I'm sure it'll be fine, after all cross contamination is just BS. In the context of cooking it is. No, no it's not. No self respecting chef would ever cross contaminate meat. Let's say a restaurant cooks shellfish in the same pan they cook the beef in, sooner or later someone with a shellfish allergy will order the beef and get extremely sick. Honestly it's crazy that you don't think cross contamination is an issue, your momma should have taught you better. It's a burger king what do you expect? Gordan Ramsey ? Also if you're allergic to things you should simply die. Your goal post shifting now. You went from cross contamination doesn't exist to "its burger king lol." That being said unless this person has allergies to meat I dont think they should make that big of a deal from it. Do you expect burger king to actually use a designated grill just for their vegan options? No they wipe down the same grills and cook on them. |
Nov 29, 2019 7:54 AM
#71
In their defense i'd say the ingredients in the burger are technically vegan, but they never said anything about how they cook it being vegan... |
~AnimeDownUnder~ |
Nov 30, 2019 12:23 AM
#72
Freshell said: traed said: I already knew it was cooked on the char broiler same as where the meat goes. It says in fine print you have to request it be cooked a different way away from the meat and they will do that. I haven't tried the burger yet. The patties are made by Impossible Foods thus the name of the Impossible Whopper. Impossible Burgers are pretty lit. Only criticism I have is they feel a little less juicy than a real well cooked burger. Better than Beyond Meat burgers at least. Juicy would be easy to acomplish with added butter or cooking oil I imagine. |
Dec 2, 2019 1:21 AM
#73
Fucking vegans. These people should be lucky we live in a society that caters to their needs rather than making more trouble for the rest of the carnivore population. |
Dec 5, 2019 1:45 AM
#74
Huh. I expected a comeback from vegans side but I found nothing after I left this thread almost a week. Disappointing :( |
OTP: KidLaw | IzuKatsu | GureShin | EruRi | AoKi | See more! » My art » My translation » Doujinshi collection » Favorite Kurobas doujinshi BISHIES X RAP |
Dec 5, 2019 2:18 AM
#75
That's just pretty petty to be honest, these soyboys are something else to say the least. |
REVIVE MECHA |
Dec 5, 2019 3:20 AM
#76
I was so dissappointed when i found out my local chip shop cooked their chips in beef dripping, can't say I'd consider taking legal action though. As a vegetarian, who has recently cut out milk, I can't imagine ever wanting to eat at one of these places anyway. Suppose somebody just saw an oppertunity for some quick cash. |
Dec 5, 2019 6:04 AM
#77
ItsYaBoyShikari said: I was so dissappointed when i found out my local chip shop cooked their chips in beef dripping, can't say I'd consider taking legal action though. As a vegetarian, who has recently cut out milk, I can't imagine ever wanting to eat at one of these places anyway. Suppose somebody just saw an oppertunity for some quick cash. Cooked in beef dripping? I didn't even know that was a thing but after looking it up I guess that used to be more common. Cooked with peanut oil tastes good . Considing the timing of several fast food chains providing meatless meat I think it has more to do with the environment and sustaining their own business than trying to cater to vegetarians and vegams which is a small niche outside of the far east which isn't where the money is otherwise they only would regionally market it. Basically they know they have to diversify their product line to survive as a company. |
Dec 5, 2019 6:52 AM
#78
traed said: ItsYaBoyShikari said: I was so dissappointed when i found out my local chip shop cooked their chips in beef dripping, can't say I'd consider taking legal action though. As a vegetarian, who has recently cut out milk, I can't imagine ever wanting to eat at one of these places anyway. Suppose somebody just saw an oppertunity for some quick cash. Considing the timing of several fast food chains providing meatless meat I think it has more to do with the environment and sustaining their own business than trying to cater to vegetarians and vegams which is a small niche outside of the far east which isn't where the money is otherwise they only would regionally market it. Basically they know they have to diversify their product line to survive as a company. After a pretty massive boom over the last 5 years quite a few European countries sit somewhere between 7% and 15% vegetarian. They'd be crazy if they were't trying to cash in on that. Will be interesting to see the figures in another 5 years, when Extinction Rebellion becomes old news. |
Dec 5, 2019 3:25 PM
#79
Orhunaa said: heres the thing though, if the % was as significant as 20? they would already have separate stations.If let's say 20% of the consumers in a fast food chain switch to their vegan options you can bet that the amount of products for each category would be adjusted accordingly. They do in my country, we dont have vegans options, we havnt hit that reatrded shit that hard yet. But vegetarians? there a ton here, so, since those bigass chains opened up here what 15 years ago, they have had separate stations. SpamuraiSensei said: HAH WORD!Real vegans don't eat that fake meat garbage. |
Dec 5, 2019 6:54 PM
#80
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