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#1
Nov 18, 11:22 AM

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Lolicon, truly the most high class of anime fetishism. Alas; I present a conundrum. What qualifies as a loli?

Is a loli a child by western definition? Like say a character under the age of 18? Or does loli transcend age and it merely an aesthetic. Truly a confusion that has plagued many a casual anime viewer.

Take Pochaco from the Sonico franchise. Even though she is under 18 she does not share the trademark qualities of a loli.

Now take Mina from Dance in the Vampire Bund. She is a pure vampire loli but her age is beyond our own lifespans.

Now I pose to you this question. What is a loli to you? To me loli is a aesthetic of a younger anime character regardless of their age.

Also how to do you feel about really old lolis? To you lesser being who care about fictional morality, does it make lolicon more acceptable?




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#2
Nov 18, 11:22 AM

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If she looks like a pre-pubescent little girl, she's a loli.
 
#3
Nov 18, 11:27 AM

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Valyrian1124 said:
If she looks like a pre-pubescent little girl, she's a loli.

Spoken well by a lalafell player. A man of culture.




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#4
Nov 18, 11:33 AM

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Well AFAIK " loli" as a word does not come directly from lolita, but from lolita complex -> lolicon(subject to having lolita complex) -> loli (target to the liking of lolicons).
The major difference is that it swapped on the way from describing the girl and her behaviour to describing the external appearance perceived by the person who look at her.

As such, "lolita" is age related, but "loli" is appearance related. That 1,000 year old goddess that look like a child will never be a lolita no matter how she dresses and behave, but she is a loli.
Mina is a Loli (except in her true form), but definitely not a lolita.

 
#5
Nov 18, 11:43 AM
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If you need to look up the wiki for her age, she's a loli.
 
#6
Nov 18, 11:48 AM

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Zefyris said:
Well AFAIK " loli" as a word does not come directly from lolita, but from lolita complex -> lolicon(subject to having lolita complex) -> loli (target to the liking of lolicons).
The major difference is that it swapped on the way from describing the girl and her behaviour to describing the external appearance perceived by the person who look at her.

As such, "lolita" is age related, but "loli" is appearance related. That 1,000 year old goddess that look like a child will never be a lolita no matter how she dresses and behave, but she is a loli.
Mina is a Loli (except in her true form), but definitely not a lolita.


That is semantics I never even considered before but it does make sense. Especially in context to the lolita aesthetic versus the loli aesthetic and being a big difference. As a cosplayer I should have taken that into consideration when making my thread.




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#7
Nov 18, 12:00 PM

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If she is as flat as a board=loli
If she has boobs=legal
 
#8
Nov 18, 12:07 PM

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Missaliensan said:
If she is as flat as a board=loli
If she has boobs=legal

What about really young looking anime girls with cartoony large boobers?




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#9
Nov 18, 12:15 PM

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If what i have in my pants gets excited, she's a loli.
 
Nov 18, 12:18 PM
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those that says "flat is justice" are into lolis
 
Nov 18, 12:19 PM

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deg said:
those that says "flat is justice" are into lolis

But that implies flat ladies are all lolis when some women are just flat? Where is the line drawn?




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Nov 18, 12:21 PM

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Alpha_Tranny said:
Missaliensan said:
If she is as flat as a board=loli
If she has boobs=legal

What about really young looking anime girls with cartoony large boobers?

Care to show any examples?Because the words ‘young’ and ‘big boobs’don’t quite add up for me
 
Nov 18, 12:22 PM
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Alpha_Tranny said:
deg said:
those that says "flat is justice" are into lolis

But that implies flat ladies are all lolis when some women are just flat? Where is the line drawn?


its like a rule of thumb and most anime ladies are not flat
 
Nov 18, 12:32 PM

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Missaliensan said:
Alpha_Tranny said:

What about really young looking anime girls with cartoony large boobers?

Care to show any examples?Because the words ‘young’ and ‘big boobs’don’t quite add up for me

I forget the anime but there was this ecchi anime where this boy had to help these girls win a hyper sexual school festival tournament and I remember one of the girls was a smol loli with boobs down to her knees. God I wish I remembered the name of that masterpiece.




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Nov 18, 12:36 PM

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A loli is a short girl that has a flat or almost flat chest.
(Mostly) MBTI blog coming before 2020!



Expect a Girls of the Wild's set soon motherfucker.~


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Nov 18, 1:00 PM

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The question of what constitutes a loli anime character is difficult for most viewers to categorise in their minds, and tends to have subjective elements. The usual aspects that accompany the tag of a loli can vary from person to person, but personally I find that I know a "loli" character when I see one (and Shinobu being a 900 year old vampire doesn't mean she can't be seen as a loli by some people).

The definition is supposed to be "pre-pubescent girls" but does that mean pre-pubescent looks (flat chest, petite, big eyes) or pre-pubescent personality (immature or childish personality traits, emotionally and/or sexually inexperienced, particularly in terms of relationships) as you don't always get one with the other. Whatever definition is nominally agreed upon, there will always be exceptions to this rule that can be found.

Even some anime tend to not be sure what defines a loli. Look at Hensuki last season, an older high school girl (a rather busty cute girl) borrowed the uniform of a younger girl and down played her age to appeal to someone with a lolicon fetish!

I was just watching Gosick and thought about this thread. Victorique is most definitely a loli looking character (small petite body with large eyes), however she has the most mature and knowledgeable attitudes, which completely contrast to her childish looks. She is someone who I would love to be with as she has the awesome mind and would be an amazing partner, but not for her looks. Her childish looks are somewhat off-putting to me. This is the kind of interesting contradictions you often get in a lot of loli's.
Modified by 23feanor, Nov 19, 4:19 AM
 
Nov 18, 1:04 PM

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Lolis are simply characters, regardless of age, that have the physical elements of a child.They can also be real children, practically, they're pedo-bait.
 
Nov 18, 1:09 PM
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True lolis in the original sense are prepubescent in:
1. age
2. appearance
3. personality
and arguably sexualized as well, making them different from regular kid characters.

Any other usage is simply a secondary usage, derived from that original meaning and usually just watering it down and using it for cases where other, pre-existing terms like 'petite' or 'flat' already do the job.

Etymologically that's where the word comes from and that's what it means and people who use loli for old characters or teenagers are either misusing it entirely or simply applying it in a metaphorical kind of sense. Characters that are not prepubescent can never truly be lolis, they can only resemble lolis, they can possess one trait of them (appearance) and be referred to as 'lolis' because of that resemblance, but they never fit the complete definition and certainly don't have the same appeal. If you call Shinobu a loli you are basically only talking about her appearance, you are saying she 'looks' like a loli, but she definitely isn't a loli. Her personality is way too mature and 'old' to have anything in common with the appeal of lolis. I'm a lolicon so I should know. As much as I like Shinobu, her loli appeal is close to zero.

But if you don't believe in the etymology and original meaning, just think about it logically. Why would you use the same term to refer to very different types of characters that appeal to different people? It makes no sense to equate actual lolis with look-alikes, because they are not the same, far from it. There should be different terms to refer to a prepubescent character, a teenager and an adult or ageless character that just looks young but has a completely adult personality and mentality. And there are, people just insist of using one and the same term for the sake of confusion because god knows why.

Alpha_Tranny said:


Is a loli a child by western definition? Like say a character under the age of 18? Or does loli transcend age and it merely an aesthetic.


Setting aside what I already said about appearance only being part of the definition and characters who only fit that part being pseudo-lolis at best, where does the obsession with the number 18 or the age of consent come when it comes to these questions? I see this all the time, not just in this thread. It's completely arbitrary and has nothing to do with anything. First of all there is a clearly defined difference between the terms 'child' and 'teenager' already, and treating everything under a random age like 18 as children as if there were no distinctions to be made between actual kids and teenagers/young adults baffles me. Did you think of yourself as a child when you were 17? I sure didn't, and noone I know did either. That's what the term teenager is for. Why not make use of it?

Being legal in one random country on this planet is completely relative, and there is not a single aspect of the definition of loli or lolicon that refers to legality. It's about age, yes, but in absolute terms, defined by biological factors like the onset of puberty, not by relative legal terms that vary around the globe. A 17 year old hasn't been a loli for at least 4-5 years, no matter whether you live in a country where 18 is the age of consent or in a country where 14 is the age of consent.

I really don't understand what's so difficult to get about this basic principle, but somehow 95% of the anime community don't understand how relative and irrelevant the age of consent is for any of these definitions. It's a purely legal term, nothing more. If I seem annoyed it's because I've had to point this out every time there is a thread about anything like this for 10 years now with seemingly noone ever understanding it.


Even setting aside the many cognitive and behavioural differences of these age groups, the appeal of a lolis and that of a teenage character are completely different as well, with adults having a yet different appeal. If you pretend they have the same appeal by using one and the same term just based on appearance, that's very reductive and only makes sense if you pay no attention to anything they say or do and only look at their designs. But characters are generally more than their designs so that position makes no sense to me.

If you tackle the question from the angle of whether being below or above 18 makes the difference, you already don't understand the topic and that loli refers to prepubescent children and not teenagers in the late stages of puberty. The age of consent or the age of adulthood is utterly irrelevant for the definition of loli, because if age is a defining factor (like I'm saying) it only goes up to 12, maybe 13, the transition period of early puberty. A 16 year old girl is as little of a loli as an 80 year old women.

Terms like loli aesthetic or loli designs or oppai loli or legal loli have their place, but they need a specification ('aesthetic' 'design' 'oppai' 'legal') precisely because they aren't referring to REAL lolis, just to one or more aspects of them (like their aesthetic). A character can have 'loli appeal' by looking young, but that doesn't make the character an actual loli. It needs to fit the whole definition for that to be the case. All the attributes need to be present. Otherwise it's like calling airplanes 'birds' just because both have wings. It makes no sense.

Like, I get that in the anime community the whole thing is close to a meme and noone gives a shit about using terms in meaningful ways, but I still don't get it. Why would people who simply like petite or flat characters willingly associate themselves with the term 'lolicon' that gets frequently treated as a synonym for 'pedophile'? Why not just stick to 'petite'? Why conflate the whole definition with a bunch of different stuff so that someone like me always has to triplecheck whether a character that is called a 'loli' would actually appeal to me or if it's just some big-boobed teenager or 1000 year old hag with none of the appeal of an actual loli? It's not like they gain anything by associating themselves with the term 'lolicon' and the related pedophilia debates and a lot of semantic accuracy is lost in the process.

I gotta say, as much as I'm annoyed by those pedophilia debates when it comes to lolis and lolicons, those people still make more sense to me than the people who use loli for teenagers and adult characters. People who think lolicon = pedophilia at least understand that they refer to the same age group, they know what the term means, unlike the other group who just uses it almost completely randomly without any understanding of what it actually means. The pedophilia crowd just can't comprehend the difference between reality and fiction, between reality and idealizations that inherently couldn't exist irl, which is a big issue in itself, but at least I feel like we're talking about the same basic concepts while people who call Hestia or any random teen or adult a 'loli' just feel like they're memeing without knowing what they're talking about. Loli as a synonym for 'underage' or 'flat' is just unnecessarily confusing.

Funnily enough in hentai and doujin circles these confusions seem to happen much less. If I ask for a loli hentai or doujin, noone will mention ones with teens or adults and the tagging on sites like Nhentai is also for the most part reliable and only applied to doujins that feature actual characters that are 13 or younger.

I will add that in the end there is no 100% exactly defined age threshold. Just like actual puberty, there is no consistent rule as to when a character stops being a loli and starts being a teenager. It's a process and there is a transitioning period where you can usually make both arguments. But that transition period is usually middle school (12-14) and not highschool or beyond. As far as I'm concerned anyone using the term to refer to characters older than 13/14 is misusing the term and making communication harder for the rest of us because if you use is like that the term 'lolis' contains almost no semantic information aside from maybe appearance (tho someone like hestia isn't even flat and still gets called a loli a lot for some reason so not even that is for sure) and is therefore turning into an 'empty' term that means absolutely nothing.

I guess it is a kind of hobby of the anime community to make terms who used to have a purpose utterly useless by turning them into meaningless buzzwords so it's no surprise that 'loli' should go down the same route. But I'll always fight it, both on principle because I believe that words should have actual meaning that distinguishes them from other words that already exist, and because of personal interest because as a lolicon it's just annoying to see the term continuously used to refer to characters that have zero loli appeal.

Aesthetic value can be recognized or experienced, but it cannot be conveyed to those who are incapable of grasping its sensations and perceptions. To quarrel on its behalf is always a blunder.
 
Nov 18, 1:12 PM
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Treuherzig said:
Lolis are simply characters, regardless of age, that have the physical elements of a child.They can also be real children, practically, they're pedo-bait.


How can they be pedo-bait but at the same time not be defined by age? You obviously don't know what pedophilia is, because it is entirely defined by age. So pick one or the other. Ignoring both the age-component of the definition and the reality/fiction distinction in such a short post is an impressive feat of ignorance, not to mention inherently contradictory because you need the age component to even try to justify any pedo-comparisons.

Aesthetic value can be recognized or experienced, but it cannot be conveyed to those who are incapable of grasping its sensations and perceptions. To quarrel on its behalf is always a blunder.
 
Nov 18, 1:16 PM

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Technically a loli would be a girl between the age of 12-15 and/or in middle school. simple as that
 
Nov 18, 1:21 PM

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Alpha_Tranny said:
Missaliensan said:

Care to show any examples?Because the words ‘young’ and ‘big boobs’don’t quite add up for me

I forget the anime but there was this ecchi anime where this boy had to help these girls win a hyper sexual school festival tournament and I remember one of the girls was a smol loli with boobs down to her knees. God I wish I remembered the name of that masterpiece.


Is it this?The anime is named Eiken,and every girl in it has breasts the size of a watermelon,the back pain must be insane.
 
Nov 18, 1:22 PM

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Missaliensan said:
Alpha_Tranny said:

I forget the anime but there was this ecchi anime where this boy had to help these girls win a hyper sexual school festival tournament and I remember one of the girls was a smol loli with boobs down to her knees. God I wish I remembered the name of that masterpiece.

is it this?The anime is named Eiken,and every girl in it has breasts the size of a watermelon,the back pain must be insane.

It is, thanks mah dude. Now I can use this anime more in conversations with friends, lol.




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Nov 18, 1:26 PM

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Alpha_Tranny said:
Missaliensan said:

is it this?The anime is named Eiken,and every girl in it has breasts the size of a watermelon,the back pain must be insane.

It is, thanks mah dude. Now I can use this anime more in conversations with friends, lol.

Good luck introducing that as a conversation.
 
Nov 18, 1:28 PM

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Missaliensan said:
Alpha_Tranny said:

It is, thanks mah dude. Now I can use this anime more in conversations with friends, lol.

Good luck introducing that as a conversation.

I'm already known as the sexual deviant in my friend groups. This won't be too out of the ordinary.




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Nov 18, 1:41 PM

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Valyrian1124 said:
If she looks like a pre-pubescent little girl, she's a loli.
What if he have long legs?

https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1795598


It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate".

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Nov 18, 1:42 PM

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Nov 18, 2:21 PM

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It depends. Eg if a production takes place in the middle ages, 12-14 year old girls would be fit for marriage age and would look as old as grandmothers at 30, they should not be labelled as loli. Though due to political correctness very few would dare touch such a sensitive topic.

I think loli qualifies anything where the girls in question don't have an Erotic or sexual agency of their own but only exist to please the viewer. Because even underage boys and girls feel sexual urges and fall in love, yet society is overprotective and considers it a taboo, burying it in ignorance and making things worse, especially for girls.
 
Nov 18, 2:23 PM

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Alpha_Tranny said:


Now I pose to you this question. What is a loli to you? To me loli is a aesthetic of a younger anime character regardless of their age.


That's what the term means to me...and they don't have to be sexualized either to be lolis...but some people think they do?

What if he have long legs?


"He"?

Um long legs don't matter as long as the character is short as a 12-year-old. Shana and all of her clones are still loli heroines.
Modified by Chiibi, Nov 18, 2:26 PM



 
Nov 18, 2:26 PM

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Pullman said:
Treuherzig said:
Lolis are simply characters, regardless of age, that have the physical elements of a child.They can also be real children, practically, they're pedo-bait.


How can they be pedo-bait but at the same time not be defined by age? You obviously don't know what pedophilia is, because it is entirely defined by age. So pick one or the other. Ignoring both the age-component of the definition and the reality/fiction distinction in such a short post is an impressive feat of ignorance, not to mention inherently contradictory because you need the age component to even try to justify any pedo-comparisons.


Regardless of age, if you're attracted into children looking people, fictional in this context, you're obviously pedophilic.Just because you look like a retard doesn't mean you are one, right?That goes with lolis too.Just because they look like a child doesn't mean they are one, and being attracted to a child IS pedophilia.I doubt any pedo will go up to a loli and ask them "Ayy shawty are you over 18?" and then just decide if they're into them sexually.Its not age that matters, its what your brain detects.It detects a child if it sees someone with strong, almost identical features as a child has.Therefore if you look like a retard and actually seem like one, people will naturall assume something else.
I think that just by thinking about what my post meant for a tiny amount of time you would have figured out what I meant by calling them "Pedo-bait".Or I'm bad at wording myself, in that case ignore my reply.
 
Nov 18, 2:38 PM

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Treuherzig said:


Regardless of age, if you're attracted into children looking people, fictional in this context, you're obviously pedophilic.


I think it's best you DON'T throw around such serious accusations of criminal behavior on an anime forum. :/

MAL really needs to ban the word "pedophile" from the forum; people abuse it too much and to apply it to animated characters is ridiculous in itself.



 
Nov 18, 4:22 PM

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Chiibi said:
Treuherzig said:


Regardless of age, if you're attracted into children looking people, fictional in this context, you're obviously pedophilic.


I think it's best you DON'T throw around such serious accusations of criminal behavior on an anime forum. :/
being "obviously pædophilic" is no crime anywhere.

MAL really needs to ban the word "pedophile" from the forum; people abuse it too much and to apply it to animated characters is ridiculous in itself.
If you think that it's a crime to "be pædophlic" then it is you who abuses it.

It is rarely a crime to be anything, only do to do certain things.


It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate".

— Bertrand Russell
 
Nov 18, 4:32 PM

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..............................

Sphinxter, shut up. :|



 
Nov 18, 4:34 PM

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Age is irrelevant, its all about the appearance. If she looks incredibly young than she is a loli.
Some puritans would say that young age and their loli fetish go hand in hand, but I think they shouldn't sweat the details and go for it even if its an older loli.

My lover/mistress is "Nemesis" (To love-ru).
My number one loli, which I will protect with tooth and nail is "Kaijuu Shoujo Anosillus (2-daime)" from SSSS Gridman.
 
Nov 18, 4:38 PM

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Loli is a purely height thing and the cut off is 4'10", they can be over 18 and even have large tits (Minori from Senran Kagura)


 
Nov 18, 4:40 PM

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The term is a bit ambiguous. I think it's more about body type than age. It's a petite youthful appearing girl regardless of age.
 
Nov 18, 4:48 PM

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My general understanding is that a "loli" is a female that at the very least has the features of an underage girl. Someone who's on the shorter side and is at least close to being completely flat chested.

I think back to a scene in Steins;Gate 0 where Daru refers to Maho Hiyajou, someone in their 20s, as a "legal loli"
Modified by Setsuei, Nov 18, 4:52 PM
 
Nov 18, 5:11 PM
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Age I don't care about
I just use my eyes in most cases and say if a character is a loli or not and get annoyed when people can't see what Im seeing
Loli


not loli


loli


not loli


Its not that hard people
 
Nov 18, 5:13 PM

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pre pubescent child, rlly smol and short
 
Nov 18, 5:25 PM

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@Deknijff

Lol they look the same to me. xD Hard to tell with twin-tails because she's all curled up. But I definitely feel like any tsundere voiced by Rie *is* indeed a loli.



 
Nov 18, 5:32 PM
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Chiibi said:
@Deknijff

Lol they look the same to me. xD Hard to tell with twin-tails because she's all curled up. But I definitely feel like any tsundere voiced by Rie *is* indeed a loli.
My dude how can't you see the difference when I specifically post pics of characters in loli and non loli form
 
Nov 18, 5:36 PM

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Pullman said:
I'm a lolicon so I should know. As much as I like Shinobu, her loli appeal is close to zero.
Now that's an interesting text by somebody who obviously invested a thought or two plus some passion. And this is the money quote.




 
Nov 18, 5:41 PM

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Deknijff said:
Chiibi said:
@Deknijff

Lol they look the same to me. xD Hard to tell with twin-tails because she's all curled up. But I definitely feel like any tsundere voiced by Rie *is* indeed a loli.
My dude how can't you see the difference when I specifically post pics of characters in loli and non loli form


I'm a lady and Louise is just as short and flat as the other grills. She's a loli character.



 
Nov 18, 5:48 PM
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Chiibi said:
Deknijff said:
My dude how can't you see the difference when I specifically post pics of characters in loli and non loli form
I'm a lady and Louise is just as short and flat as the other grills. She's a loli character.
My dudette how can you look at this sex symbol and say she a loli because slightly short and flat
 
Nov 18, 5:50 PM

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I classify loli as any female character who is short and flat in anime/manga.
 
Nov 18, 5:55 PM
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Age and looks is always the main answer.
 
Nov 18, 5:56 PM

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@Deknijff

Hmm. I see what you mean. I thought she had the same proportions as Shana and Taiga...but definitely not from that LAST pic. lol She does look older. I guess she's just petite.



 
Nov 18, 6:09 PM

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It's complicated. People give definitions that vary based on:

1. Pre-pubescent or pre-high school. Are middle schoolers lolis? I would say no.

1.5. Age or appearance? Both? For me, it depends. If a girl is explicitly said to be about 12ish or under in the show, then that's a loli regardless of appearance. However, I will consider an older character a loli if her appearance is obviously pre-pubescent. "Obviously" is key. If it's possible the character is just short and flat but could be in their teens, then not loli, for me [EDIT: Actually, this is something I think shouldn't be subjective. If one wants to accuse lolicons of being RL pedophiles then applying the term loli to a girl under 18 makes no sense. If men are pedos for finding girls under 18 attractive then 99% of guys are pedophiles. Pedophillia applies pre-pubescent girls.]

2. Sexualized or not? Some say they need to be "sexualized", some say otherwise. I think the concept of sexualization is too vague and kind of dumb so I don't consider it in my own definition.

It frustrates me no end that people call any flat-chested anime girl a loli even when their body clearly displays pubescent feminine features like wide hips. It's really stupid. It's the same mentality that says if any guy prefer petite girls they must be in to 8 yr olds. Come on bro.

Sphinxter said:
Chiibi said:


I think it's best you DON'T throw around such serious accusations of criminal behavior on an anime forum. :/
being "obviously pædophilic" is no crime anywhere.

MAL really needs to ban the word "pedophile" from the forum; people abuse it too much and to apply it to animated characters is ridiculous in itself.
If you think that it's a crime to "be pædophlic" then it is you who abuses it.

It is rarely a crime to be anything, only do to do certain things.

While agree with your general points, and I always love how your posts trigger certain types of people, I sympathize with the guy wanting that word banned from the site. It's supposed to be an anime fandom site. People complaining about perceived pedophillia have as much of a place here as people who want to talk about their opinions on the health affects of pepperoni on a pizza forum. I want to talk about pizza with my fellow pizza fans without people screaming at me and accusing me of all manner of evil for enjoying a pretty fucking popular topping.
Modified by YossaRedMage, Nov 18, 6:17 PM
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Nov 18, 6:15 PM

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When the FBI is on your lawn, then you know she's a loli.
 
Nov 18, 6:15 PM

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Alpha_Tranny said:
What, in your eyes, qualifies as a loli?
Nothing, since I don't particularly like the term and therefore I don't use it.
 
Nov 18, 6:17 PM

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YossaRedMage said:
You are quite literally the worst. Everytime I read one of your posts I regret it.

Ha, thanks for the compliment.

I feel like half the discussion threads on this site you're there complaining about something sexual that you don't like.


...that...doesn't sound like me. Are you sure you're not confusing me with someone else?

I spend most of my time defending things from more negative people (like SAO and freedom of art. I might say 'I don't like this fanservice' once in a while but I don't think people are "wrong" if they feel differently.



 
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