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Do you like weak MCs?
Nov 15, 2019 10:56 AM
#1
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Nov 15, 2019 10:59 AM
#2
pfft no, I don't really like MC's that start off weak, idgaf if they're OP or not. Unless it's a case where I don't like the MC and want them to lose then yea the weaker the better |
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Nov 15, 2019 11:07 AM
#4
No, no I do not. Action is fun when its unpredictable and there is no plot armor. When protagonist is some weakling and braindead like Luffy, you for sure know what will happen and I just do not care. Especially with its overblown drama. Katanagatari started with the strong protagonist and it has an amazing action. |
Nov 15, 2019 11:28 AM
#5
Gythia said: N1eR said: Ok sure, but I'm pretty sure all 4 MC of HxH are in the same boat as Luffy when it comes to power level in their respective series, and Gon in "braindeadness" too. And that managed to get on your favorites..Action is fun when its unpredictable and there is no plot armor. When protagonist is some weakling and braindead like Luffy, you for sure know what will happen and I just do not care. Gon was never braindead. Maybe in social interactions, at best... but even then he was tolerable. Luffy is just too over-the-top. And I thought it was a common sense, that HxH was starting with tropes and then subverting them... (thus not being predictable... Fuck Election arc tho). Also, you are not really weak in HxH (cuz none cracks fucking mountains with their heads). You can beat most of the people if you are smarter than them... So yeah, that managed to get on my favorites list. What's the problem, again? |
Nov 15, 2019 9:43 PM
#6
I do, since I like to see a character go from a nobody to a well-known somebody. |
Nov 15, 2019 9:50 PM
#7
I absolutely fucking hate weak protagonists. not because they are but because it always goes like this: does something fucking amazing as an eyecatch in the first ep the show passes without the guy doing anything like that again because he's the weak archetype loser then does something cool again to wrap up the season. so 10 out of 12 episodes I was robbed from cool stuff happening because "he's weak". |
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Nov 15, 2019 10:06 PM
#8
Meh, I care more about the MC's personality and character development. But I do like watching them get stronger over the course of the series, so yeah they're not bad. It of course all comes down to how they're executed in the end. Deku's my favorite MC of this type. |
'nom' |
Nov 15, 2019 10:58 PM
#9
I am kinda neutral but I find weak MCs annoying sometimes especially if they are mentally weak. |
Nov 15, 2019 11:25 PM
#10
I like Setsuna more than Kira. That should explain it. But personally my favourites are never wimps or babies*. I can never put Deku at the same level as Eren for instance despite of both starting off annoying. But personalities are also important. For example I liked Armin more than Bakugo. Is there anyone who likes Bakugo? Send them over to me. Needs some one on one teaching. *Simon is an exception. Usually my faves are already strong. Gintoki for one was known as the White Demon before he turned into a bumpkin. The only protagonist I know with no power ups. I mean he practically longed for Kamehame ha or Bankai. O_o |
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Nov 16, 2019 12:40 AM
#11
Gythia said: @N1eR Luffy is definitely not over-the-top braindead, he's just a bit dense when it comes to understanding complicated things like politics, wind patterns, and some other navigation and history bullshit. One Piece definitely subverted tropes, in fact a lot of the common anime tropes are birthed from One Piece (as well as other big anime like DB, Naruto, Bleach, HxH). Also, One Piece still subverts tropes regularly today and still has a lot of things that are exclusive to it and nothing else, despite being on its 22nd year and 962nd chapter. There's definitely a power gap in HxH (no one in One Piece is capable of cracking mountains with their heads too btw). You can't tell me that someone like Leorio would be able to beat Meruem/Netero if he has enough brains, it's impossible. TL;DR, there's no problem. I'm just saying that it's pretty funny how HxH got into your favorites while One Piece got a 3 despite them both being pretty similar manga/anime. show me human interactions of Luffy what tropes did it subvert? Because I clearly see how Luffy is winning his battles just by screaming louder than his enemies. giving birth to boring common tropes? hmm... do tell what interesting tropes did it give birth, I am listening As I sad, MOST of the people. And now you are bringing inhumane people, who were there for one arc... Leorio can hurt Ging, who is basically is a god-tier among humans now. Netero could not hurt Meruem, by your logic. Even post-time skip Luffy would have been obliterated by Flamingo, if not plot armor. They can't crack mountains? You sure? I think you forgot the Dresrosa arc... also https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Monkey_D._Luffy_(Post-Timeskip) "Striking Strength: At least Small City Class+, possibly Mountain Class+ in base, Mountain Class+ with Gear 2nd (Capable of destroying Doflamingo's threads without Haki), likely Large Mountain Class with Gear 3rd, At least Large Mountain Class+, likely Small Country Class with Gear 4th (Three times stronger than before) | Mountain Class+ in base, higher with Gear 2nd, likely Large Mountain level with Gear 3rd, At least Large Mountain Class+, likely Small Country Class with Gear 4th variants (One-shot Cracker with Gear 4th Tank-Man, and should be at least as strong as he was in Dressrosa) | Mountain Class+ in base, higher with Gear 2nd, likely Large Mountain level with Gear 3rd, At least Large Mountain Class+, likely Small Country Class with Gear 4th forms" Funny is that you are picking on HxH, when I clearly took Katanagatari as an example of protagonist. which means, protagonists are not a major reason of it being in my favorites list. I am not sure about them being that similar. Can you bring 5-10 substantial similarities? |
Nov 16, 2019 4:20 AM
#12
Not really, sometimes i hate MCs who starts weak and naive (just like typical shounen MCs) but i do have a tolerance for those who have a good development, like Eren i used to hate him, after he got drastic development in the manga now he is one of my favorites MC in any manga/anime i've ever known |
Nov 16, 2019 4:30 AM
#13
For me it depends on how they get stronger rather than how they start. I hate when their developments are painfully slow. Both Eren and Deku starts with nothing but while Eren had some solid development in 3 seasons of airing, Deku's still struggling not to break his bones, geez he realised his legs existed in 3rd season! I also hate random sudden power-ups. |
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Nov 16, 2019 4:34 AM
#14
Nov 16, 2019 4:47 AM
#15
In Katanagatari execution was key. Don't wanna talk about the protagonist in case I ruin the story for someone else. Gon was disgustingly childish. Last episodes in particular. Ew. Luffy is childish but in a different manner, a lot more tolerable than the other piece of G*n. I guess you see Luffy as a "scream to win" kind of character. I don't. Sujective topics end in "let's agree to disagree". PS! What the hell do you mean by "Show me human interactions of Luffy" because I'm interpreting it as a stupid question so before I assume I want to hear you elaborate your question further, with less ambiguous details. (Unless it really was just too stupid of a question) |
Nov 16, 2019 4:51 AM
#16
If they start out weak but as the series goes on, the progressively gets stronger and is able to hold his own against the more powerful enemies, of course. If they start out weak and stays weak......no. Can't list any examples off the top of my head though. |
Nov 16, 2019 4:56 AM
#17
cHowaito said: In Katanagatari execution was key. Don't wanna talk about the protagonist in case I ruin the story for someone else. Gon was disgustingly childish. Last episodes in particular. Ew. Luffy is childish but in a different manner, a lot more tolerable than the other piece of G*n. I guess you see Luffy as a "scream to win" kind of character. I don't. Sujective topics end in "let's agree to disagree". PS! What the hell do you mean by "Show me human interactions of Luffy" because I'm interpreting it as a stupid question so before I assume I want to hear you elaborate your question further, with less ambiguous details. (Unless it really was just too stupid of a question) Just because you say so, of course. Here, I will elaborate I do not really care what you want |
Nov 16, 2019 4:57 AM
#18
no i prefer op mcs not weaklings who cry all the time and somehow manages to get strong while annoying me during most of the series bleh |
Nov 16, 2019 6:25 AM
#19
I like to see growth usually, especially with younger characters. Rurouni Kenshin well... was quite the best all along, and there wasn't growing as much emotional conflict if I remember right. Someone can be a good fighter or whatever, but still get to new realizations about him\herself, which also can be interesting. But those who have life of pancakes... nah. |
Nov 16, 2019 6:57 AM
#20
Gythia said: N1eR said: idk why you're asking me to do this when you can just search it up yourself, but whatevershow me human interactions of Luffy N1eR said: Luffy doesn't even scream that much, he really only screams in the anime because Toei likes to pad time, especially during character clashes.what tropes did it subvert? Because I clearly see how Luffy is winning his battles just by screaming louder than his enemies. - The story travels along a single path (the Grand Line) instead of going to different places in unknown lands each arc. - Power of friendship actually done well, instead of the usual "My best friend is waiting for me, so I can't lose here" sort of thing. - Like the one above, One Piece doesn't use flashbacks to make a character power up either. - Hints about the world as well as the future of the story are sprinkled all throughout the panels, cover pages, backgrounds, dialogues, etc. - The author already has an ending planned out before writing the story - Info dumps are actually a good thing in this series - Characters while rare, actually die, instead of the thing like in Naruto, Bleach, DB, etc. where they're able to talk to the spirits and souls/revive them etc. N1eR said: -MC being in the gray area between good and evilgiving birth to boring common tropes? hmm... do tell what interesting tropes did it give birth, I am listening -Amazonesses -MC being stronger than most people at the start of the story -Large scale Adventure series with heavy amounts of world building -Magical powers that come from an outside source (DFs) and not from the body (Ki, Nen, Chakra, etc) -Real world themes being present in an anime/manga -MC actually committing villainous acts etc. N1eR said: I guess Netero is not human anymore. Also, Leorio only hurt Ging because he was caught off guard. Happened in One Piece too, also with another "God-tier" character.As I sad, MOST of the people. And now you are bringing inhumane people, who were there for one arc... Leorio can hurt Ging, who is basically is a god-tier among humans now. Netero could not hurt Meruem, by your logic. N1eR said: If you're talking about G4, then jokes on you, Doflamingo got the biggest power up the series has ever seen so far, in the same arc (DF Awakening).Even post-time skip Luffy would have been obliterated by Flamingo, if not plot armor. N1eR said: No I didn't forget, Luffy's strongest attack in Dressrosa, as well his strongest in the series so far (King Kong Gun), split a CITY in half. And if you're talking about Zoro, he didn't cut/crack a mountain either because you can clearly see the Flower HILL behind him. Plus, Pica is way weaker in terms of defense and durability when compared to an actual mountain.They can't crack mountains? You sure? I think you forgot the Dresrosa arc... also https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Monkey_D._Luffy_(Post-Timeskip) "Striking Strength: At least Small City Class+, possibly Mountain Class+ in base, Mountain Class+ with Gear 2nd (Capable of destroying Doflamingo's threads without Haki), likely Large Mountain Class with Gear 3rd, At least Large Mountain Class+, likely Small Country Class with Gear 4th (Three times stronger than before) | Mountain Class+ in base, higher with Gear 2nd, likely Large Mountain level with Gear 3rd, At least Large Mountain Class+, likely Small Country Class with Gear 4th variants (One-shot Cracker with Gear 4th Tank-Man, and should be at least as strong as he was in Dressrosa) | Mountain Class+ in base, higher with Gear 2nd, likely Large Mountain level with Gear 3rd, At least Large Mountain Class+, likely Small Country Class with Gear 4th forms" Also, that Striking Strength is definitely wrong. The most damage Luffy's done with a single move in base form is when he destroyed Arlong Park (a fairly small structure) inside-out using Stamp. Using the Wikia criterion, I'd say base Luffy is about 9-A: Small Building Level in power. The most damage Luffy's done with a single move in Gear 2nd is when he destroyed Doflamingo's string clone with a Haki-infused Red Hawk (his strongest G2 Attack). As for structures, Luffy's not used G2 on any structures but I'd say it's only slightly more destructive than base form because of his speed and adrenaline rush. Using the Wikia criterion, I'd say G2 Luffy is about 8-C: Building Level in power. The most damage Luffy's done with a single move in Gear 3rd is when he slowed (not destroyed) the Noah (a massive structure half the size of Fishman Island) by punching it repeatedly with Haki-infused Elephant Gatling. Using the Wikia criterion, I'd say G3 Luffy is about 8-A: Multi-City Block Level in power. The most damage Luffy's done with a single move in Gear 4th is as I said, when he split a city in half. Using the Wikia criterion, I'd say G4 Luffy is about 7-B: Small City/City Level in power. N1eR said: I mean it clearly is since you said that one of the major reason you hated and dropped One Piece was because of the MC, and HxH is a series that's very much character driven.Funny is that you are picking on HxH, when I clearly took Katanagatari as an example of protagonist. which means, protagonists are not a major reason of it being in my favorites list. N1eR said: Obviously what I meant was when talking about both series in general. "Critically acclaimed Weekly Shounen Jump adventure/battle series that started in the late 90s."I am not sure about them being that similar. Can you bring 5-10 substantial similarities? Humans around you may be really weird. By human interactions I meant the scenes that are grounded instead of being over-the-top. There is nothing human in threatening Yonkou there. That's just way to reckless. Who the hell repeats "I refuse" several times for no reason? And there are tons of comic relief in a supposedly serious scene. So obnoxious... No human would care about such aDvEnTuRe. What kind of argument was that, lol. It still wound have been an adventure, even if he knew some more info. And anyone would have been able to come up with random excuses to have an adventure. "But noooooo, lets refuse to get new information like a braindead monkey I am." Thanks for providing stuff anyway. Not like certain thing who quoted me previously. But did not you see "bottom of the food chain"? Meaning that you were talking about the INTRODUCTION arcs. Cuz these videos are from the second half. Well, it would not have been a discussion if I searched it by myself. Not to mention that I have already read big chunk of OP. -WHAT?! There is a single path in ONE PIECE?! the hell... and there are no random disconnected unknown places?! How is it an adventure then? why plot is not moving then? Why do we have close to zero information about politics then?! Oh, right, cuz story has no path and its just bunch of random nonsense. -Done well?! Like, random boat randomly having a brain and moving on his own?! -There was a flashback of power up in the middle of a fight vs. Flamingo. Are you really talking about OP, or just trolling? -900 chapters of hints... amazing... what did it subvert, anyway? -Every author has planned ending and they always tweak it mid-way. Whats so special about Oda? -Info dumps are good there? why?! I dropped series because of how awful the artwork and info dumps were. It was like he was putting in chapters as much things as much he could and they were just mishmashed -die? I don't recall such things. Maybe only in flashbacks. -Luffy? gray? how?! also, OP is far from being innovative in this case. -whats amazoness is supposed to mean? -how did OP give birth to it? -booooring... who cares... also, Haki. Also, powers in JoJo came from the arrow... there will be other cases as well, I am pretty sure. So no innovation for OP. -what world building? He is just dropping random islands and hardly ever connects them. Also, Saint Seiya, DB, Nausicaa and probably bunch of other stuff were earlier. -Every story has such themes, they just do not explore them. OP is not exploring themes. -??? Netero is human and there are other such humans. Maha, for example. "Caught off guard" lol, really? Adds to my point of having a brain. Also, Ging DID expect it and even reacted to it, but did not do anything, cuz of manga spoilers. Point was - hurting itself. You literally can't catch whitebeard off-guard. He has haki and thus expects movements of yours. Heck, he probably expects movements while being asleep. Why he did not block that attack? And even with that cut, he did shit on whole Marinford. Sure it hurt. and did that power up do anything important, lol? idk whats your point. Law was being cut and thrown around for around 50 chapters there and nothing happened to him. Flamingo was just walking towards luffy for minutes, before he woke up or something. Bullshit action. I meant the guy who went for Luffy, on that arena. He did have flashback of cutting island in half or something. "I would say" is not an argument". Have this one https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:KobsterHope07/Enel%27s_Island_Busting_Raigou_(Redux) "you said that one of the major reason you hated and dropped One Piece was because of the MC" where did I say that? I don't really recall a single thing that I like about One Piece NOW. Why only MC? "Obviously what I meant was when talking about both series in general. "Critically acclaimed Weekly Shounen Jump adventure/battle series that started in the late 90s." " That's very superficial. I like some adventure"battle series and dislike some. |
MitakaFamiNov 16, 2019 7:00 AM
Nov 16, 2019 7:27 AM
#21
cHowaito said: In Katanagatari execution was key. Don't wanna talk about the protagonist in case I ruin the story for someone else. Gon was disgustingly childish. Last episodes in particular. Ew. Luffy is childish but in a different manner, a lot more tolerable than the other piece of G*n. I guess you see Luffy as a "scream to win" kind of character. I don't. Sujective topics end in "let's agree to disagree". PS! What the hell do you mean by "Show me human interactions of Luffy" because I'm interpreting it as a stupid question so before I assume I want to hear you elaborate your question further, with less ambiguous details. (Unless it really was just too stupid of a question) Sooo your saying Gon a child was acting childish.. wow. I agree Luffy has human interactions. But the only difference in their childish actions is that Gon is a child and Luffy is not. Also while Gon acts that way there are alot of moments where he's the total opposite such as when showing genius in learning nen and winning the last quiz at Greed Island as well as his dedication and focus on training. |
Nov 16, 2019 8:24 AM
#23
I'm fine as long as it's executed well. I have no particular fancies or aversions to a weak protagonist in an action series, it depends where the story takes it. |
Nov 16, 2019 8:56 AM
#24
Gythia said: N1eR said: Ok sure, but I'm pretty sure all 4 MC of HxH are in the same boat as Luffy when it comes to power level in their respective series, and Gon in "braindeadness" too. And that managed to get on your favorites..Action is fun when its unpredictable and there is no plot armor. When protagonist is some weakling and braindead like Luffy, you for sure know what will happen and I just do not care. Outside of his fight against pitou all of gon's fight involve him trying to beat a stronger opponent throught tricks and quick thinking great examples of that are him against hisoka in heaven's arena, versus genthru and the volley ball match in greed island. I don't know if you were watching a different show or what but in term of fighting gon is the opposite of braindead. On the same note I wouldn't call luffy braindead either but it's clear oda and togashi have complete different methods at approaching a fight. |
Nov 16, 2019 10:20 AM
#25
You've answered pretty much as I would have. I like those MC's that have room to grow, because it's watching them improve over time that is satisfying as the audience. Those MC's that start off strong don't have as much room for growth, whereas those MC's that start off weaker have much greater capacity to grow and improve. A really good comparative example would be Asta & Yuno from Black Clover. The story centres around Asta because he starts off from a weak position, whereas Yuno appears to be a prodigy from the start & is treated as such. If the story followed only Yuno I don't think it would be anywhere near as good & the audience wouldn't empathise with him as much as they with Asta now after watching him go through hell to get where he is now. |
Nov 16, 2019 11:15 AM
#26
Gythia said: N1eR said: idk why you're asking me to do this when you can just search it up yourself, but whatevershow me human interactions of Luffy N1eR said: Luffy doesn't even scream that much, he really only screams in the anime because Toei likes to pad time, especially during character clashes.what tropes did it subvert? Because I clearly see how Luffy is winning his battles just by screaming louder than his enemies. - The story travels along a single path (the Grand Line) instead of going to different places in unknown lands each arc. - Power of friendship actually done well, instead of the usual "My best friend is waiting for me, so I can't lose here" sort of thing. - Like the one above, One Piece doesn't use flashbacks to make a character power up either. - Hints about the world as well as the future of the story are sprinkled all throughout the panels, cover pages, backgrounds, dialogues, etc. - The author already has an ending planned out before writing the story - Info dumps are actually a good thing in this series - Characters while rare, actually die, instead of the thing like in Naruto, Bleach, DB, etc. where they're able to talk to the spirits and souls/revive them etc. N1eR said: -MC being in the gray area between good and evilgiving birth to boring common tropes? hmm... do tell what interesting tropes did it give birth, I am listening -Amazonesses -MC being stronger than most people at the start of the story -Large scale Adventure series with heavy amounts of world building -Magical powers that come from an outside source (DFs) and not from the body (Ki, Nen, Chakra, etc) -Real world themes being present in an anime/manga -MC actually committing villainous acts etc. N1eR said: I guess Netero is not human anymore. Also, Leorio only hurt Ging because he was caught off guard. Happened in One Piece too, also with another "God-tier" character.As I sad, MOST of the people. And now you are bringing inhumane people, who were there for one arc... Leorio can hurt Ging, who is basically is a god-tier among humans now. Netero could not hurt Meruem, by your logic. N1eR said: If you're talking about G4, then jokes on you, Doflamingo got the biggest power up the series has ever seen so far, in the same arc (DF Awakening).Even post-time skip Luffy would have been obliterated by Flamingo, if not plot armor. N1eR said: No I didn't forget, Luffy's strongest attack in Dressrosa, as well his strongest in the series so far (King Kong Gun), split a CITY in half. And if you're talking about Zoro, he didn't cut/crack a mountain either because you can clearly see the Flower HILL behind him. Plus, Pica is way weaker in terms of defense and durability when compared to an actual mountain.They can't crack mountains? You sure? I think you forgot the Dresrosa arc... also https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Monkey_D._Luffy_(Post-Timeskip) "Striking Strength: At least Small City Class+, possibly Mountain Class+ in base, Mountain Class+ with Gear 2nd (Capable of destroying Doflamingo's threads without Haki), likely Large Mountain Class with Gear 3rd, At least Large Mountain Class+, likely Small Country Class with Gear 4th (Three times stronger than before) | Mountain Class+ in base, higher with Gear 2nd, likely Large Mountain level with Gear 3rd, At least Large Mountain Class+, likely Small Country Class with Gear 4th variants (One-shot Cracker with Gear 4th Tank-Man, and should be at least as strong as he was in Dressrosa) | Mountain Class+ in base, higher with Gear 2nd, likely Large Mountain level with Gear 3rd, At least Large Mountain Class+, likely Small Country Class with Gear 4th forms" Also, that Striking Strength is definitely wrong. The most damage Luffy's done with a single move in base form is when he destroyed Arlong Park (a fairly small structure) inside-out using Stamp. Using the Wikia criterion, I'd say base Luffy is about 9-A: Small Building Level in power. The most damage Luffy's done with a single move in Gear 2nd is when he destroyed Doflamingo's string clone with a Haki-infused Red Hawk (his strongest G2 Attack). As for structures, Luffy's not used G2 on any structures but I'd say it's only slightly more destructive than base form because of his speed and adrenaline rush. Using the Wikia criterion, I'd say G2 Luffy is about 8-C: Building Level in power. The most damage Luffy's done with a single move in Gear 3rd is when he slowed (not destroyed) the Noah (a massive structure half the size of Fishman Island) by punching it repeatedly with Haki-infused Elephant Gatling. Using the Wikia criterion, I'd say G3 Luffy is about 8-A: Multi-City Block Level in power. The most damage Luffy's done with a single move in Gear 4th is as I said, when he split a city in half. Using the Wikia criterion, I'd say G4 Luffy is about 7-B: Small City/City Level in power. N1eR said: I mean it clearly is since you said that one of the major reason you hated and dropped One Piece was because of the MC, and HxH is a series that's very much character driven.Funny is that you are picking on HxH, when I clearly took Katanagatari as an example of protagonist. which means, protagonists are not a major reason of it being in my favorites list. N1eR said: Obviously what I meant was when talking about both series in general. "Critically acclaimed Weekly Shounen Jump adventure/battle series that started in the late 90s."I am not sure about them being that similar. Can you bring 5-10 substantial similarities? Sorry to jump in again but most of the tropes you're attributing to OP here are more staff that it has done better than naruto or bleach instead of things he created or subverted since many other shounen jump titles have done the same thing before it and sometimes better Characters staying dead: jojo, city hunter, hokuto no ken Powerful MCs at the start of the story: yusuke uramishi, ryo saeba, goku and let's not even talk about kenshiro or kenshin himura Moraly gray MC: Ryo saeba, cobra, the girls in cat's eyes and even giorno giovanna can be considered morally gray Great world building: Naruto and DB actually have pretty good world building and rurouni kenshin has a great depiction of meiji era japan Goku's SS transformation was a great use of the power of friendship, was foreshadowed throughout the arc and didn't use any form of flashback As for real life themes being explored, city hunter explored post war guilt, police and government corruption, organized crime and terrorrism, and ashita no joe was forced into an early ending because of how politicaly controversial it was becoming. One piece does a lot of great things and may even seem revolutionary compared to some of its contemporaries but in the larger shounen history it isn't really that great of a pioneer |
Nov 16, 2019 11:15 AM
#27
Gythia said: N1eR said: Well it makes sense in context. Momo is the leader of the Kozuki Clan but he's asking his retainers to request for help from Luffy. It's like asking someone to do something that's supposed to be your responsibility. Luffy, realizing that, refuses to help them until Momo himself asks for help.Who the hell repeats "I refuse" several times for no reason? And there are tons of comic relief in a supposedly serious scene. So obnoxious... N1eR said: Definitely not today because there's literally nothing else we can explore on this Earth, but look at people like Marco Polo, James Cook, Columbus, they were all in it for the "aDvEnTuRe". No human would care about such aDvEnTuRe. What kind of argument was that, lol. It still wound have been an adventure, even if he knew some more info. And anyone would have been able to come up with random excuses to have an adventure. "But noooooo, lets refuse to get new information like a braindead monkey I am." Yes, it still would've been an adventure if he knew some more info I agree, but that's like knowing in detail the ending of an anime when you're halfway through the series, it wouldn't be as good of an experience. N1eR said: Aight here, from the very first episode of the series But did not you see "bottom of the food chain"? Meaning that you were talking about the INTRODUCTION arcs. Cuz these videos are from the second half. N1eR said: Because almost nothing interesting happens in the Four Blues. And when something interesting does happen in one of the Four Blues, it all leads back to the Grand Line, because that's where all the big players in the story live.-WHAT?! There is a single path in ONE PIECE?! the hell... and there are no random disconnected unknown places?! How is it an adventure then? why plot is not moving then? Why do we have close to zero information about politics then?! Oh, right, cuz story has no path and its just bunch of random nonsense. The plot definitely moves, it's slower than most other series, but it definitely moves. Because the politics does not affect anything in the main storyline, our MC is a pirate, not a royal guard/soldier of a kingdom. "Random nonsense" yeah, definitely not. N1eR said: Even if it was an asspull it was still done well. And this is a single somewhat bad nitpick out of the many good times it's been done. It proves nothing.-Done well?! Like, random boat randomly having a brain and moving on his own?! N1eR said: Yeah, Law's, who was a nonfactor in the final fight.-There was a flashback of power up in the middle of a fight vs. Flamingo. Are you really talking about OP, or just trolling? N1eR said: It really is amazing, I agree. "What did it subvert?" Well, big things randomly happening without any reason or previous plot points to back it up.-900 chapters of hints... amazing... what did it subvert, anyway? N1eR said: Yeah, and most of the time it flops at the end because they changed it from what was originally intended. "What's so special about Oda?" Well, it's his ability to foreshadow characters, plot points, places, etc. from hundreds of chapters back using hints that all connect but also fill his world with brimming amounts of detail. As an example, there was a blog post back in 2015 that predicted Sanji's whole backstory only using hints Oda's given and from the fact that his new bounty said "ONLY ALIVE" instead of "DEAD OR ALIVE".-Every author has planned ending and they always tweak it mid-way. Whats so special about Oda? N1eR said: Because it tells us more about the world that's been such a mystery to us. -Info dumps are good there? why?! I dropped series because of how awful the artwork and info dumps were. It was like he was putting in chapters as much things as much he could and they were just mishmashed Obviously if you didn't like the series in the first place you wouldn't care, but I don't think even Oda would expect someone who hates his series to read 894 chapters and watch 900 episodes. N1eR said: Yea, most of them are in flashbacks but there's quite a few in the present storyline too.-die? I don't recall such things. Maybe only in flashbacks. Pre-TS -Ace -Whitebeard -Merry Post-TS -Vergo -Monet -Pedro -Pound -Yasuie N1eR said: Because he's a good guy that's in a group that consists of 99.9% bad guys. He also doesn't care about people aside from people he knows, for example, he didn't care when Whitebeard died, he only cared about Ace.-Luffy? gray? how?! also, OP is far from being innovative in this case. N1eR said: A tribe of women warriors in Greek mythology, they're basically women who marry men only so they can continue their lineage. Amazon Lily is an obvious reference.-whats amazoness is supposed to mean? N1eR said: .. by having Luffy beat the shit out of the first villain (Alvida)? Also, 'birth' is a very weird term, use 'pioneer' from now on.-how did OP give birth to it? N1eR said: I mean.. you asked for it. I've not watched JoJo so I wouldn't know, and yeah, OP probably wasn't the first one to come up with it, but it was the one that popularized it and actually made in into an anime trope.-booooring... who cares... also, Haki. Also, powers in JoJo came from the arrow... there will be other cases as well, I am pretty sure. So no innovation for OP. N1eR said: You do know what world building is, right? It's not just putting random places/islands, it also includes things like history, geography, ecology, etc.-what world building? He is just dropping random islands and hardly ever connects them. Also, Saint Seiya, DB, Nausicaa and probably bunch of other stuff were earlier. N1eR said: OP definitely explores it in great detail. Racism, persecution, quarantines, corruption, monarchy, totalitarianism, etc.-Every story has such themes, they just do not explore them. OP is not exploring themes. N1eR said: Yup, we're just going to ignore how Luffy did a prison break on the most secure prison in the world, releasing thousands of the world's most dangerous criminals, and killing thousands of guards by shoving them into boiling blood in Level 4.-??? N1eR said: Because he trusted Squard, Squard was saying all these things about family and how he'll support him till the end only to backstab him in the end. And Whitebeard could've blocked it, but in the next episode it's explained that he didn't because he wanted to show Squard that he still trusted him despite Squard being swayed over by the Marines.You literally can't catch whitebeard off-guard. He has haki and thus expects movements of yours. Heck, he probably expects movements while being asleep. Why he did not block that attack? And even with that cut, he did shit on whole Marinford. Sure it hurt. N1eR said: Yes actually, it did quite a lot, it put the fight on to a stalemate for about 10 minutes, enough for Doflamingo to recover and for the birdcage to close in even more.and did that power up do anything important, lol? idk whats your point. Law was being cut and thrown around for around 50 chapters there and nothing happened to him. Flamingo was just walking towards luffy for minutes, before he woke up or something. Bullshit action. N1eR said: Don Chinjao? He didn't, he cracked a big chunk of ice, which isn't very hard, considering that it's ice.I meant the guy who went for Luffy, on that arena. He did have flashback of cutting island in half or something. "I would say" is not an argument". Have this one https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:KobsterHope07/Enel%27s_Island_Busting_Raigou_(Redux) I said "I would say" because it's not something that's concrete. Luffy will definitely power up as the story goes on and the strength of his base, G2, G3 and G4 form will most likely increase, especially since we're very near to the climax of the Wano War. As for Enel, it's not something he can throw every few second, he needs a long time to make the Raigou as big as it is, so I wouldn't really count it. Whitebeard could probably crack a mountain if he put enough force into it. N1eR said: In your very first post, "When protagonist is some weakling and braindead like Luffy, you for sure know what will happen and I just do not care.""you said that one of the major reason you hated and dropped One Piece was because of the MC" where did I say that? N1eR said: Yeah obviously, it's the same for me. But the general consensus for both One Piece and HxH is that. "Critically acclaimed Weekly Shounen Jump adventure/battle series that started in the late 90s.""Obviously what I meant was when talking about both series in general. "Critically acclaimed Weekly Shounen Jump adventure/battle series that started in the late 90s." " That's very superficial. I like some adventure"battle series and dislike some. I know that it makes sense. I was just talking about how it was handled. But it is not "our today" in their universe. If treasure is just an excuse, then it can be discarded and replaced easily. Dunno, I get more interested if I know interesting stuff about the series beforehand. (I spoiled myself almost fully about Houseki no Kuni and started reading it, because I got engaged by spoilers alone and its one of my favorite stories in fiction) IDK, being motivated without any motivation is inhumane to me D: It may be okay for a child, but I am not sure, kids usually jump from one goal to another. Coby was fine, tho. Have not moved at the time when I dropped it... New generation went to Kaido and got beaten, that's progress I guess... Politics do not affect anything?! Hmm... pretty sure Robin's arc was about politics... Marinford and these death scenes... Revolution.... etc... Random nonsense comes up ---> gives little hints ---> then you praise it for being well thought out. Count it as good if you wish. Melodramatic asspull is bad to me. But okay, I am not against it being fine in nakama-department Not law's. Luffy had flashback just right when he used (or was about to use it) his last gear, I think. My point was, that when you think about 900 chapters of it, hints are the only "plot" that comes to mind. Yeah, yeah, that's good and all, but I would rather have plot from get-go, then after 900 chapters of hinting. Sure, Sanji was hinted, but it did not lead to anything much. Ravages of Time does plot and foreshadowing way better. If it is a mystery, then it should not be telling. Why are you hinting if you want to info-dump? We will experience it just fine. I liked it 5 years ago, thus why I was reading/watching it. Pre-ts, fair enough. They were not fleshed out enough to care about them, though. Post-ts... very forgettable. Such death scenes can even be found in Fairy Tail. (FAIRY TAIL of all things) Does not care? That's very hard to believe with just one example. And even then, it was a middle of war, you can't just start crying for someone. With Ace's death war basically ended for him. Others are bad guys? Why? Comic relief is the only negative thing I can recall about them. Pretty sure such tropes (amazoness, that is) can be found in older stories, as it is originated from somewhere else. And even if not, nobody cares about it. Also, subversion means criticism. What did it criticize? who has not beaten their first villains? also,popularized ? why does that matter. If anything, that means that its easy to copy... and I do not think amazoness (and maybe even other stuff you listed) are common in its genre. I asked in a sense, that whether if its interesting. HxH, for instance, criticized nakama-power itself. That has so much novelty alone... I do not care about that. Story should be about STORY. He just puts that details of geography and other irrelevant and boring stuff, but does not connect them enough (if at all) to care about it. That's most important part of world-building and story-telling in general. No, it just has that themes. You can't say that it is exploring it, while having one-dimensional opposing sides (Like, goverment, "higher race", etc...), who are just punching each other. Ignoring? Just like the manga itself? Did any of his nakamas blame him for it? Did he pay the price for it? ANYTHING?! No, because it was not treated as villanious act. Now compare it to Gon of Ant's arc. Does not matter what he was talking about, when that guy can sense danger of Ace (I mean, if he can sense someone else, he sure can have even better sense when he himself is in danger) even while being asleep. And yeah, he could block, thus having a brain is irrelevant in OP. Ging at least saw the punch with his own eyes Quite a lot? You mean, giving Luffy enough time to recover? And how can he recover so fast, when it takes DAYS to lose so much stamina in OP? (Akainu and Aokiji were fighting for 10 days). Why? Was that ice hollow inside? Point is, that Enel was one of the first villains and villains Post-TS are supposed to be way stronger than him. So, if Enel was not doing it easily, now we should have people who can easily do it. Whitebeard cracked Marinford and water/air around it, while being far from his prime years. Yes, but where is the dropping part? Because I clearly have not dropped it for a long time and if it took so much time, then I do not think it is justified to assume that I dropped it because of MC. hm... |
MitakaFamiNov 16, 2019 11:24 AM
Nov 16, 2019 11:19 AM
#28
JoyBoy_316 said: Gythia said: N1eR said: show me human interactions of Luffy N1eR said: what tropes did it subvert? Because I clearly see how Luffy is winning his battles just by screaming louder than his enemies. - The story travels along a single path (the Grand Line) instead of going to different places in unknown lands each arc. - Power of friendship actually done well, instead of the usual "My best friend is waiting for me, so I can't lose here" sort of thing. - Like the one above, One Piece doesn't use flashbacks to make a character power up either. - Hints about the world as well as the future of the story are sprinkled all throughout the panels, cover pages, backgrounds, dialogues, etc. - The author already has an ending planned out before writing the story - Info dumps are actually a good thing in this series - Characters while rare, actually die, instead of the thing like in Naruto, Bleach, DB, etc. where they're able to talk to the spirits and souls/revive them etc. N1eR said: giving birth to boring common tropes? hmm... do tell what interesting tropes did it give birth, I am listening -Amazonesses -MC being stronger than most people at the start of the story -Large scale Adventure series with heavy amounts of world building -Magical powers that come from an outside source (DFs) and not from the body (Ki, Nen, Chakra, etc) -Real world themes being present in an anime/manga -MC actually committing villainous acts etc. N1eR said: As I sad, MOST of the people. And now you are bringing inhumane people, who were there for one arc... Leorio can hurt Ging, who is basically is a god-tier among humans now. Netero could not hurt Meruem, by your logic. N1eR said: Even post-time skip Luffy would have been obliterated by Flamingo, if not plot armor. N1eR said: They can't crack mountains? You sure? I think you forgot the Dresrosa arc... also https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Monkey_D._Luffy_(Post-Timeskip) "Striking Strength: At least Small City Class+, possibly Mountain Class+ in base, Mountain Class+ with Gear 2nd (Capable of destroying Doflamingo's threads without Haki), likely Large Mountain Class with Gear 3rd, At least Large Mountain Class+, likely Small Country Class with Gear 4th (Three times stronger than before) | Mountain Class+ in base, higher with Gear 2nd, likely Large Mountain level with Gear 3rd, At least Large Mountain Class+, likely Small Country Class with Gear 4th variants (One-shot Cracker with Gear 4th Tank-Man, and should be at least as strong as he was in Dressrosa) | Mountain Class+ in base, higher with Gear 2nd, likely Large Mountain level with Gear 3rd, At least Large Mountain Class+, likely Small Country Class with Gear 4th forms" Also, that Striking Strength is definitely wrong. The most damage Luffy's done with a single move in base form is when he destroyed Arlong Park (a fairly small structure) inside-out using Stamp. Using the Wikia criterion, I'd say base Luffy is about 9-A: Small Building Level in power. The most damage Luffy's done with a single move in Gear 2nd is when he destroyed Doflamingo's string clone with a Haki-infused Red Hawk (his strongest G2 Attack). As for structures, Luffy's not used G2 on any structures but I'd say it's only slightly more destructive than base form because of his speed and adrenaline rush. Using the Wikia criterion, I'd say G2 Luffy is about 8-C: Building Level in power. The most damage Luffy's done with a single move in Gear 3rd is when he slowed (not destroyed) the Noah (a massive structure half the size of Fishman Island) by punching it repeatedly with Haki-infused Elephant Gatling. Using the Wikia criterion, I'd say G3 Luffy is about 8-A: Multi-City Block Level in power. The most damage Luffy's done with a single move in Gear 4th is as I said, when he split a city in half. Using the Wikia criterion, I'd say G4 Luffy is about 7-B: Small City/City Level in power. N1eR said: Funny is that you are picking on HxH, when I clearly took Katanagatari as an example of protagonist. which means, protagonists are not a major reason of it being in my favorites list. N1eR said: I am not sure about them being that similar. Can you bring 5-10 substantial similarities? Sorry to jump in again but most of the tropes you're attributing to OP here are more staff that it has done better than naruto or bleach instead of things he created or subverted since many other shounen jump titles have done the same thing before it and sometimes better Characters staying dead: jojo, city hunter, hokuto no ken Powerful MCs at the start of the story: yusuke uramishi, ryo saeba, goku and let's not even talk about kenshiro or kenshin himura Moraly gray MC: Ryo saeba, cobra, the girls in cat's eyes and even giorno giovanna can be considered morally gray Great world building: Naruto and DB actually have pretty good world building and rurouni kenshin has a great depiction of meiji era japan Goku's SS transformation was a great use of the power of friendship, was foreshadowed throughout the arc and didn't use any form of flashback As for real life themes being explored, city hunter explored post war guilt, police and government corruption, organized crime and terrorrism, and ashita no joe was forced into an early ending because of how politicaly controversial it was becoming. One piece does a lot of great things and may even seem revolutionary compared to some of its contemporaries but in the larger shounen history it isn't really that great of a pioneer Bastard has gray protagonist and I think its shonen in its first volumes (as it is cracking jokes about being shonen). So here we have another. |
Nov 17, 2019 1:39 PM
#29
Jyoshiro said: cHowaito said: In Katanagatari execution was key. Don't wanna talk about the protagonist in case I ruin the story for someone else. Gon was disgustingly childish. Last episodes in particular. Ew. Luffy is childish but in a different manner, a lot more tolerable than the other piece of G*n. I guess you see Luffy as a "scream to win" kind of character. I don't. Sujective topics end in "let's agree to disagree". PS! What the hell do you mean by "Show me human interactions of Luffy" because I'm interpreting it as a stupid question so before I assume I want to hear you elaborate your question further, with less ambiguous details. (Unless it really was just too stupid of a question) Sooo your saying Gon a child was acting childish.. wow. I agree Luffy has human interactions. But the only difference in their childish actions is that Gon is a child and Luffy is not. Also while Gon acts that way there are alot of moments where he's the total opposite such as when showing genius in learning nen and winning the last quiz at Greed Island as well as his dedication and focus on training. Yea, I do understand that Gon is actually a child and Luffy isn't. That's one of the reasons why I think Gon is disgusting because I don't like child MCs. I have to bring up Killua now because he's the same age as Gon but instead, he's not disgusting because he gives of a certain "mature" vibe. You can tell me Gon had his moments but fuck me, they didn't help alleviate the bitter aftertaste that most of his screentime gave me. His character/personality is the only reason I won't ever rewatch it and Killua is the only reason I finished it. Child MC's can be hard to get right. Another example of a bad MC is in Accel World (Still can't believe he's the MC) and Magi: The Labyrinth of Magic (another "bad" child MC). ...What do you think? |
Nov 18, 2019 7:47 PM
#30
I'm gonna be honest here... I Really REALLY Love Anime characters that are so determined to reach a goal of something so let's just say i really like them. |
Nov 18, 2019 8:16 PM
#31
Nov 18, 2019 8:18 PM
#32
Definitely. Nothing can be more satisfying than seeing a weak main character, gradually become badass. Although I don't like it when the MC becomes TOO OP, to a point where they barely struggle, like Naruto once he becomes OP. I like badass characters who still struggles against much stronger enemies, and barely defeat them, like Guts. |
Nov 19, 2019 12:31 AM
#33
I generally can tolerate weak mc as a starting point, I'm also fine with OP characters. What I don't like in any main character is that when they act wishy-washy to the point I no longer enjoy the anime as a whole. I also have a threshold limit when it comes to braindead characters. Gon acts mature but he's a braindead kid, he should be acting at least closer to how goku behaves when he was a kid. Last but not least, I can't sing praises if most of the opponent have better super power that's more exciting to watch than main character like deku, ueki (law of ueki), main character in marchen awaken romance etc. |
Aguuus said: Most people confuse overrating with overpopularity, for example the poor SAO is a victim of this problem. Nor is there overrating, only people who do not know how to qualify fairly, like me. |
Nov 19, 2019 1:35 AM
#34
Gythia said: The type I dislike are those that get literally bodied by all its competitors and is at the very bottom of the food chain, for example: -Naruto (Naruto) -Deku (My Hero Academia) -Kaneki (Tokyo Ghoul) To me, they are the most endearing protagonists. The ones who try and fail, over and over again, yet muster up the courage to persevere. The Pain arc wouldn't have been so impactful if Naruto hadn't been continually bodied up until that point. |
Nov 19, 2019 2:12 AM
#35
I prefer characters who remain weak. Having the power to directly impose your will on other people is the least interesting way of solving problems. |
Nov 19, 2019 2:17 AM
#36
Nov 19, 2019 2:21 AM
#37
Nov 19, 2019 2:36 AM
#38
In physical or fighting capabilities I prefer when the protagonist has room to grow. Doesn't have to be right at the bottom, but definitely not near the top. I think, for the most battle shounen shows, the growth rate is where things get iffy. I also like if, while not being that strong physical, they can compensate that by being strong in character or mentally. Like Deku from BnHA (albeit he gets a ridiculously OP quirk), he has a very analytically approach to fighting. |
Nov 19, 2019 4:37 AM
#39
I don't care. It would be boring if I only watched one or the other. I care more about the whole story than just one character. |
Nov 19, 2019 6:33 AM
#40
I don't mind weak MCs, i find it better when they have room to grow physically because you can actually see their strungles. This doesn't mean i can't aprectiate OP ones though, specially when they're well done. But on the other side.. their personality matters more in my opinion, if i don't find them likable on that department then i don't care if they're weak or op. An example of this is Deku, he starts off weak but i find his personality traits somewhat annoying and boring. |
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