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Oct 17, 12:37 PM

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This might seem kind of random, but wouldn't be more appropriate for them to be called interns and not volunteers? Specially when mentions of resume building, potential recommendation letters, and actual degrees as a requirement. I'm not trying to be an ass, just honestly wondering why volunteer instead of intern.
 
Oct 17, 12:39 PM
Brother In Narms

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Kineta said:
Standards are created because the existing team of volunteers has standards created by their own experience and passion. Not everyone can add Manga to the Manga DB because some people are unable to find accurate information. And unless I spend 6 months holding their hand, teaching them how to—which I, and no one else in the team, has time for—they will add incorrect information to the databases which benefits no one: not them, not me, not the users of MAL.

If you think volunteer associations have 0 standards, you've never volunteered for any reasonable length of time.


These standards you've laid out seem to not have all that much to do with your requirements. You certainly don't need to be in uni to do the task you've mentioned, and being in uni doesn't mean you'd be any better at it.

And I have, in fact, done voluntary radio hosting, journalism, photography, and direction for the University of Houston's college radio station and their website for 2 and a half years. When I started, all I needed was the desire to do it.
TEN COMMANDMENTS:
1) If Evangelion and Psycho-Pass are his only 10s, he probably also worships Tool and smells like cheesy puffs 2) Freudian psychosis =/= good writing 3) Moe blob art style is only ok in pure slice-of-life comedy 4) It's ok to enjoy shounen. Having fun is allowed 5) It is not ok to enjoy isekai (jk, it is, I just fucking hate it) 6) Creator breakdown =/= good writing 7) A story does not have to be wrapped up with a bow. Life is messy, why would a good story need to be tidy? 8) InuYasha is proto-Twilight 9) Ecchi CAN be good, but is almost always an abomination 10) If God is real, They allowed Super Kid to happen, so fuck Them
 
Oct 17, 12:43 PM
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Mayuka said:
Are you guys seeking graphic designers? Interested in increasing my portfolio.
Hi Mayuka. I think you're recalling the graphic designer position I bundled with this posting last time? Unfortunately, that recruitment never really went anywhere due to various factors. I didn't advertise for it again because I need to focus on Database Guideline updates and didn't want to bite off more than I can chew.

However, if you are interested, you could message me (do you use Discord?) I always have things coming up, like site announcements or community events, that images could be created for. We could try one or two, if you like :)



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Oct 17, 12:44 PM
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this thread is getting interesting reminds me of the anime industrys overwork and underpaid situation with that abuse of passion bit lol
 
Oct 17, 12:44 PM
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Souji said:
This might seem kind of random, but wouldn't be more appropriate for them to be called interns and not volunteers? Specially when mentions of resume building, potential recommendation letters, and actual degrees as a requirement. I'm not trying to be an ass, just honestly wondering why volunteer instead of intern.


I think then legal issues become a problem like that (which is bad for the unpaid part). Certainly in the UK it is illegal to not pay an intern unless they are on work experience for school, student internship as a requirement for a uni qualification or if they are a volunteer. That could be a problem.

deg said:
this thread is getting interesting reminds me of the anime industrys overwork and underpaid situation with that abuse of passion bit lol


Or the video games industry.


Mod Edit: Merged double post; please use the edit feature.
Modified by Kineta, Oct 17, 12:49 PM
 
Oct 17, 12:46 PM
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LiquidMikerrs said:
deg said:
this thread is getting interesting reminds me of the anime industrys overwork and underpaid situation with that abuse of passion bit lol


Or the video games industry.


or just capitalism in general lol thats why social capitalism is better XD
 
Oct 17, 2:23 PM

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LiquidMikerrs said:
Souji said:
This might seem kind of random, but wouldn't be more appropriate for them to be called interns and not volunteers? Specially when mentions of resume building, potential recommendation letters, and actual degrees as a requirement. I'm not trying to be an ass, just honestly wondering why volunteer instead of intern.


I think then legal issues become a problem like that (which is bad for the unpaid part). Certainly in the UK it is illegal to not pay an intern unless they are on work experience for school, student internship as a requirement for a uni qualification or if they are a volunteer. That could be a problem.


I guess that makes sense, I don't think there's any limitation in the US but honestly I have never looked into it.
 
Oct 17, 4:05 PM

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Kineta said:
Mayuka said:
Are you guys seeking graphic designers? Interested in increasing my portfolio.
Hi Mayuka. I think you're recalling the graphic designer position I bundled with this posting last time? Unfortunately, that recruitment never really went anywhere due to various factors. I didn't advertise for it again because I need to focus on Database Guideline updates and didn't want to bite off more than I can chew.

However, if you are interested, you could message me (do you use Discord?) I always have things coming up, like site announcements or community events, that images could be created for. We could try one or two, if you like :)
I'll PM you my Discord.

And no, I didn't see the past postings at all lol! Just wanted to hop on an opportunity to design stuff for a site I use a lot.

☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆


watch nodame cantabile

recommend me anything!
 
Oct 17, 9:42 PM
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Mayuka said:
Are you guys seeking graphic designers? Interested in increasing my portfolio.


Although there isn't any position for just graphic design, it is a skill that is looked highly upon for social media mod applicants, if you're interested in that at all. I myself regularly produce graphics for posts.

-

@bastard_of_young @LiquidMikerrs You are missing the point yourself. The university student/graduate requirement is more about maturity and simple skills (e.g. consistent competency in English) -- all mods are required to be at least 18 years old, which seems sensible to me.

It says right there in the original post that you don't have to be studying in the relevant area if you are a university student. I'm on the social media team and I run Featured Articles, but I study neither marketing nor journalism and I went into them with no qualifications, so this whole "skilled or working towards being skilled" nonsense is entirely irrelevant. This position has, however, given me valuable experience and connections in those areas if I ever seek to pursue them, and that goes for any applicant. But more than that, I get a lot of personal gratification and enjoyment out of what I do in my position.

Yet it's still just that, a position, not a charity. We can't accept everyone for everything, otherwise, we'd have super bloated teams, so there has to be some standard applied. And even charities have standards for volunteers. Would you enlist someone to collect donations that yells angrily at people passing by (or, in this case, a forum mod that berates users)? No, you wouldn't. But hey, we should let them because they want to, right? It's not as extreme in this instance, but the concept is just as relevant.

Having relevant experience is merely a plus, not a guarantee. It says so in the original post, if you read it, that you can be a university student with no social media experience and still apply, like in my case. Not having experience does not disqualify anyone; simple competence in English and motivation are far more important. Hell, we've had applicants that are actually studying social media/journalism but aren't able to create good content at all in the practical evaluation. All applicants are measured by their practical skills equally.

Besides, it's still a choice and everyone has their own motivations. The experience is not the point, it's just an enticing accessory. If it's not for you or you think it's beneath you, then that's fine. All I ask is that you stop trying to play the bullied hero when you don't accurately represent the interests of current or potential mods in any way.
Modified by Shymander, Oct 17, 10:26 PM
 
Oct 17, 10:39 PM
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@Shymander I'm not playing "bullied hero" and I think it's obnoxious to say that I am when I'm simply explaining my position. And "you can have an opinion, but shut up, don't talk about it" is not a good look. I'm not telling you to stop explaining your side.

As someone who's been to uni, the idea that it's the dividing line of maturity and basic skills is elitist and asinine in my view. And age is not mentioned with these position listings: not "you must be 18", "you must be or have been enrolled in uni or have 2 years experience plus samples".

I'm just a guy that might be interested in this if it weren't an arbitrarily exclusionary unpaid position. It's not my job to represent the interests of the mods, it's my prerogative to express why I think this arrangement, for those who don't think like you, is kinda lame. I'm not engaging in any sort of abuse and as long as that's the case, I'll say what I want until I decide to stop. I'm glad you get gratification out of what you do and you can express that. I can express how I feel about it. And no duh it's not a charity by MAL: taking on the position that allowing people who want to do work for free to do so would be charity is far from charitable.

My interest is starting to fade though, so good luck with your thing, I guess.
TEN COMMANDMENTS:
1) If Evangelion and Psycho-Pass are his only 10s, he probably also worships Tool and smells like cheesy puffs 2) Freudian psychosis =/= good writing 3) Moe blob art style is only ok in pure slice-of-life comedy 4) It's ok to enjoy shounen. Having fun is allowed 5) It is not ok to enjoy isekai (jk, it is, I just fucking hate it) 6) Creator breakdown =/= good writing 7) A story does not have to be wrapped up with a bow. Life is messy, why would a good story need to be tidy? 8) InuYasha is proto-Twilight 9) Ecchi CAN be good, but is almost always an abomination 10) If God is real, They allowed Super Kid to happen, so fuck Them
 
Oct 18, 1:02 AM
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@bastard_of_young Most of my comments were addressed more to LiquidMikkers and the general sentiment currently in this thread, so it's my bad for tagging you in all of it and creating a misunderstanding.

I understand your position and I would actually agree with you, but I think it comes from a misinterpretation at the fault of the recruitment being advertised as an experience-giving opportunity. It's meant to be something you do on the side as a hobby for your hobby, and CV material is just something that you could use it for. "Pay", whether it be money or experience, isn't and shouldn't be the main feature. It's a little frustrating that it has been made such since it paints an incorrect image of what the positions are.

I agree with Maffy's statement that "either you should be acquainted with writing essays in post-secondary school or you have a semi-serious hobby of it." Both are valid methods for assessing, at least initially, an applicant's current level of compatibility with the position. However, mod recruitment is a multi-stage process that assesses many different elements, and the experience part of it is relatively minor. Applicants who pass simple checks (like writing skills and clear motivation) in the first stage get to demonstrate their ability at the position in the next, and that's what matters.

You mentioned "When I started, all I needed was the desire to do it" and "But you can't write for free unless you meet our standard?" which certainly reads like you're standing up for anyone should be allowed as long as they want to do it, but like I said, that'd create bloated teams and a lot of trouble. So it's only fair that the better candidates are selected and a simple level quality is assured.

And yes, you can obviously speak your mind about it and I encourage you to, but it's probably not necessary to say it over and over.
Modified by Shymander, Oct 18, 1:07 AM
 
Oct 18, 6:12 AM
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@Shymander
Firstly some quotes from the application itself
"ForumVolunteer for MAL & Build Your CV/Portfolio!"

"Within our staff volunteer positions, we have a few openings which (depending on your field) can be used to build experience for your CV/portfolio. I am happy to write character references for any staff members I have known for a decent length of time, and additionally, you'd be collecting experience contributing to a website with millions of viewers."

"College or university student or graduate; journalism major is a plus but not required.
Two or more years of writing experience can replace the post-secondary requirement.
Japanese-language knowledge is recommended but not required. Fluency itself is not required."

Let us reference these as quotes 1 2 and 3.

Now let us quote you:
Shymander said:

I understand your position and I would actually agree with you, but I think it comes from a misinterpretation at the fault of the recruitment being advertised as an experience-giving opportunity. It's meant to be something you do on the side as a hobby for your hobby, and CV material is just something that you could use it for. "Pay", whether it be money or experience, isn't and shouldn't be the main feature. It's a little frustrating that it has been made such since it paints an incorrect image of what the positions are.


This does not matter. I agree that the hobby aspect should have been mentioned more as opposed to the purely experience way it has been written as by above quotes 1 and 2.

My issue is purely related to quote 3. My issue with this is quote 3 is demanding as a requirement EITHER a university degree/working towards a degree OR two years of the relevant experience. Most would class the people you are looking for as skilled for the position. Let me quote you some more times here:

Shymander said:

I agree with Maffy's statement that "either you should be acquainted with writing essays in post-secondary school or you have a semi-serious hobby of it." Both are valid methods for assessing, at least initially, an applicant's current level of compatibility with the position. However, mod recruitment is a multi-stage process that assesses many different elements, and the experience part of it is relatively minor. Applicants who pass simple checks (like writing skills and clear motivation) in the first stage get to demonstrate their ability at the position in the next, and that's what matters.


Let's now focus in now on the above quote:
"I agree with Maffy's statement that "either you should be acquainted with writing essays in post-secondary school or you have a semi-serious hobby of it." Both are valid methods for assessing, at least initially, an applicant's current level of compatibility with the position"

I also agree with this as a quantifier for application. But this disagrees with quote 3. Which specifies explicitly that you need to have or be working towards a degree. That is fundamentally different than asking people who would be passionate about it to just send in examples of writing.

Another quote from yourself.
Shymander said:

You mentioned "When I started, all I needed was the desire to do it" and "But you can't write for free unless you meet our standard?" which certainly reads like you're standing up for anyone should be allowed as long as they want to do it, but like I said, that'd create bloated teams and a lot of trouble. So it's only fair that the better candidates are selected and a simple level quality is assured.


No, if you open up the applications in the way above (which I think is totally fair and would have avoiding this discussion all together) the only think that would inflate is the applications. The duty would then be on the selector to find the better candidates. The "simple" level of quality does not equate to people spending 3-4 years of their lives at university to become skilled people.


I completely agree with @bastard_of_young 's position. He is completely in the right not only about what he is saying but the way he is saying it.

Now, let's look into the first comment you made, we'll start with "All I ask is that you stop trying to play the bullied hero when you don't accurately represent the interests of current or potential mods in any way.". I resent this statement. In no way am I playing the bullied hero at all. I'm merely highlighting that the application is demanding too high for what it is, the fact you want to go somewhere like that is pointless to this discussion.

"you don't accurately represent the interests of current or potential mods in any way." - This is another pointless statement. Of course I don't represent the current moderators as I am not one. What this sentence means is "because I am not one of you then I cannot think critically about you" which is a stupid statement. Taking this statement to the extremes you cannot have an opinion on anything that you are not a part of. Seems very closed minded and would not be very useful in the real world.

Now let's look at some more quotes;

Shymander said:
Mayuka said:
Are you guys seeking graphic designers? Interested in increasing my portfolio.

@bastard_of_young @LiquidMikerrs You are missing the point yourself. The university student/graduate requirement is more about maturity and simple skills (e.g. consistent competency in English) -- all mods are required to be at least 18 years old, which seems sensible to me.


Firstly, nowhere on the application specifies an age limit. Maybe an age limit could have assisted in the "simple skills" which you are now mentioning (but is not mentioned in the application). University qualifications are MORE than simple skills. I did not get an Msc just for simple skills. The issue is asking for that level of education for an unpaid position. If quote 3 was changed to be more along the lines of:
"maturity and simple skills (e.g. consistent competency in English) -- all mods are required to be at least 18"
Then we wouldn't have an issue.

In this discussion all you have done is change the goalposts from university student/graduate to something anyone could have - which I agree with, as this is an unpaid position it is inappropriate just to ask for university students/graduates or people with 2 years experience.

I want the appropriate people to get the appropriate position, and I accept your paragraph on charities. However, charities don't DEMAND university level education or 2 years experience. The applications are open and then the selectors choose the most appropriate.

I'm repeating this over and over because you are consistently ignoring the point of the discussion to pick apart a choice of word or move the goalposts instead of responding to the actual point.

Uni students pay thousands to become proficient. And it's disgusting to classify them along the level of simple skills.

Last quote "so this whole "skilled or working towards being skilled" nonsense is entirely irrelevant". If it was irrelevant. Why are you only opening applications for those types of people?

Here's a nice report for you to read if you would like: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/797308/GLMS_2018_publication_main_text.pdf

This is from my country, the first page is enough. Graduates earn 10k more than non graduates. Why do you think that is? Do you think maybe because the graduates spent their own money to become more skilled? Do you think that maybe, just maybe, skilled people are more VALUABLE than unskilled people?

I wonder what is a good way to assign value... maybe money?
 
Oct 19, 2:25 PM

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Working for exposure bucks? Sure why not? Nice meme. Tasteless jokes aside, it's indeed a great opportunity if you don't value your time and yourself in general. You have not defined how long this unpaid internship would last in the first place nor give any incentive other than the opportunity to gain experience in a remote working environment. I think i will pass this time around but that shouldn't deter anyone from applying regardless. Maybe i've been burned too many times but on a positive note something good like a fixed paid position could still come out of this. Then again i doubt that's viable when you want teleworkers for free. Recommendations for cvs and portfolios can easily be fabricated. Oversaturation in the field of multimedia design and communication studies is quite rampant, so i doubt having a mal related work entry in our resume would give anyone a viable edge over all the competitors who are currently hunting for jobs. But that's just my 2 cents, as cynical as it may sound.
 
Oct 21, 7:00 AM
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hi what is the time commitment for the social media volunteer position? I'm definitely interested.
 
Oct 21, 7:58 AM

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Social media coordinator? Sounds really fun and I love interacting with the variety of users in here on the daily eehee.. though my teaching schedule would get in the way. :x
 
Oct 22, 3:42 AM
Fujoshit

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I sent my credentials and other info in for the volunteer position~ hope to hear from you guys soon! :D
 
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