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Is there an equivalent for "Citizen Kane" in the anime world?

#1
Oct 5, 1:51 PM
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It is widely considered the greatest movie of all time. Does it have a pair?
 
#2
Oct 5, 1:53 PM
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I heard Boku No Pico was once considered a better kind of show than this movie.. called "Citizen Kane" but that was pretty much 8 years ago. Dunno about now.

Pico x Chico was an inferior sequel tho.
 
#3
Oct 5, 2:00 PM

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KarimEdward said:
It is widely considered the greatest movie of all time.


Looking at IMDB and top ten lists, no.

It's considered to be an incredibly influential movie in regards to the techniques employed, but I haven't heard anyone today proclaiming it to be the greatest movie of all time.

For anime, the show Astro Boy would probably be cited for kicking off the anime industry due to the cost cutting production processes.

Akira is often cited as "an influential anime film" but I don't see much that's influential about it. What, the cyberpunk themes? That only really transferred over into... what, Ghosts in the Shell? It sure wasn't the ludicrously expensive animation process that got passed down through the industry.
 
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Oct 5, 2:16 PM
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Valyrian1124 said:
KarimEdward said:
It is widely considered the greatest movie of all time.


Looking at IMDB and top ten lists, no.

It's considered to be an incredibly influential movie in regards to the techniques employed, but I haven't heard anyone today proclaiming it to be the greatest movie of all time.

For anime, the show Astro Boy would probably be cited for kicking off the anime industry due to the cost cutting production processes.

Akira is often cited as "an influential anime film" but I don't see much that's influential about it. What, the cyberpunk themes? That only really transferred over into... what, Ghosts in the Shell? It sure wasn't the ludicrously expensive animation process that got passed down through the industry.

No, Citizen Kane is definitely considered the best movie of all time, or at least one of them. It has consistently been topping critic's choice polls for the past century, with pretty much only Vertigo and 2001: A Space Odyssey being put in the same league as it.
As for the influence of Akira, its influence was making anime popular in the West.
Modified by Questionnaire, Oct 5, 3:45 PM
 
#5
Oct 5, 2:17 PM

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The whole purpose of this site is to find that out, here are the interim results: https://myanimelist.net/topanime.php

 
#6
Oct 5, 2:48 PM

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This question is funny, as in, every American will regard that movie so highly that it doesn't even look like a movie anymore, I wonder how many of them actually watched the whole thing, that reminds me of Shinkai's works and the whole Kimi no na wa hype train.

Now seriously, I'd consider Laputa's scene with the famous バルス to be almost as emblematic and widely recognized by every anime fan as "Rosebud" is for those who watched the movie and those who didn't but still believe that it's the best thing in the world.
 
#7
Oct 5, 2:56 PM

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I guess regarding anime movies two directors stand apart as authors, it's Miyazaki and Takahata. Miyazaki has always been more about entertainment though, so in your particular request I'd rate the works of Takahata higher.

If there's something with kind of the same aura as Citizen Kane in the anime community, it's definitely something like Grave of the Fireflies.
 
#8
Oct 5, 3:25 PM

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Isn't Akira generally considered the cream of the crop when it comes to cinematography and animation? It also defined "anime" for a generation, it was many westerner's first exposure to anime that wasn't for kids.

The original Ghost in the Shell film is also held in high esteem, and I would second many Miyazaki movies, especially Laputa for their influence and renown.

Love it or hate it, Evangelion is also one of the most influential anime that sort of shaped anime and otaku culture into what it is today, especially in Japan.

A lot of people like to say Cowboy Bebop, but I wouldn't really say it was all that influential and a lot of the love for the series comes for how not "anime-like" it is.
Modified by HeruruMeruru, Oct 5, 3:57 PM
 
#9
Oct 5, 3:34 PM

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The thing with Citizen Kane is that it's basically a "scholar's movie."
As in, it is praised, primarily, by teachers. And that's understandable because of the techniques involved, which revolutionized the industry.

To find something like that from the anime industry isn't easy. It would have to be something that gets referenced repeatedly in animation classes.
In standard Film Studies I really don't see anything making the cut.
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Oct 5, 4:55 PM

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Ghibli movies, like Spirited Away or Grave of the Fireflies.
 
Oct 5, 6:10 PM
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No, for the simple reason that there isn't anything comparable to the institutions that conduct these kind of polls with critics and creators for movies when it comes to anime. There might be in Japan, but for the most part all the big 'Best anime ever' lists I see from both Japan and the west are simple popularity polls with contemporary fans, or lists of individual critics or influencers. And if you did those kind of popularity polls for movies, Citizen Kane would not make the list so I'm assuming you mean the more cinephile and critic orientated polls, which I don't think exist for anime in any capacity in the west.

This reminds me of a debate about whether there is (and should be) such a thing as an 'anime canon' in the same sense that there is for movies. It also doesn't exist for the same reason, because the critics scene for anime is too small, not organized and less professional, reflecting the size and cultural relevance of anime compared to Hollywood.

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Oct 5, 6:19 PM

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Yes. this
The greatest Masterpiece in japan history.
Not even Kurosawa can top that
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Oct 6, 1:42 AM
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inim said:
The whole purpose of this site is to find that out, here are the interim results: https://myanimelist.net/topanime.php

That's like saying that "The Shawshank Redemption" is the greatest movie of all time(which is not quite true, although the movie is excellent).
 
Oct 6, 3:03 AM

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KarimEdward said:
inim said:
The whole purpose of this site is to find that out, here are the interim results: https://myanimelist.net/topanime.php
That's like saying that "The Shawshank Redemption" is the greatest movie of all time(which is not quite true, although the movie is excellent).
Or like saying Deep Throat or Plan 9 from Outer Space is the greatest movie of all time. Any answer is equally correct. So asking for one subjective, arbitrary pick compared to another is even twice as impossible. The closest one can get is by comparing probabilities. And one good metric for that is just asking many people, which is pretty much what both imdb and MAL do for their area of coverage. Any individual's picks are fine, but don't say much - even if the individual is named Roger Ebert. My reply tried to summarize this in one slightly ironic statement.
Modified by inim, Oct 6, 4:53 AM

 
Oct 6, 3:40 AM

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I will give you only my answer for "considered greatest by critics", that is Spirited Away most probably.

You should understand that even Citizen Kane isn't really that widely considered to be the greatest, unless if you're talking about the Critics Poll which only critics are taken into consideration. I mean elitists on Letterboxd rant about this movie all the time, so audience-wise isn't very accurate.
. . .
 
Oct 8, 4:25 AM
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Preachee said:
I will give you only my answer for "considered greatest by critics", that is Spirited Away most probably.

You should understand that even Citizen Kane isn't really that widely considered to be the greatest, unless if you're talking about the Critics Poll which only critics are taken into consideration. I mean elitists on Letterboxd rant about this movie all the time, so audience-wise isn't very accurate.

Well, yeah, I was talking about Critics Poll.
 
Oct 8, 5:24 AM

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Current critical consensus tends to aim more towards Vertigo. But regardless, I think Neon Genesis Evangelion fits like a glove in cultural impact, in how it is perceived to be a game changer in the industry and an extremely influential title, in how it is not completely original but it made its borrowed elements more popular to the point they are now an integral part of the industry, and in general on the amount of talk it still gets.

The only difference is that Citizen Kane or Vertigo are not that polarizing among the fans.
 
Oct 9, 3:41 AM

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KarimEdward said:
Preachee said:
I will give you only my answer for "considered greatest by critics", that is Spirited Away most probably.

You should understand that even Citizen Kane isn't really that widely considered to be the greatest, unless if you're talking about the Critics Poll which only critics are taken into consideration. I mean elitists on Letterboxd rant about this movie all the time, so audience-wise isn't very accurate.

Well, yeah, I was talking about Critics Poll.

Well, you should probably have said "widely considered to be the greatest by critics" then. Anyway, it doesn't matter, I get your point anyway.
. . .
 
Oct 9, 3:47 AM

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Everybody knows that Di Gi Charat is the Citizen Kane of anime. Deal with it.
 
Oct 9, 9:40 AM

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Maybe EVA, both revolutionised the industry by using new visual techniques.
Both are considered style over substance by some and masterpieces in both story and visuals by others


Or go with the all time best Infernooo Cop.

 
Oct 9, 11:55 AM

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Questionnaire said:

No, Citizen Kane is definitely considered the best movie of all time, or at least one of them. It has consistently been topping critic's choice polls for the past century, with pretty much only Vertigo and 2001: A Space Odyssey being put in the same league as it.
As for the influence of Akira, its influence was making anime popular in the West.


Boy, how frustrating it is when people only talking about the US will refer to it as "the West".
No, AKIRA didn't do that, the west was already receiving anime since the, 60's? Early 70's?
And AKIRA didn't make the "boom" either, in all of latin america this film is irrelevant.

Kind of reminds me of Mother's Basement forcing that "Breaking the Habit" gave birth to AMV's.

@KarimEdward

The thing is, most people didn't watch Citizen Kane, praising it is more of a "critic's thing".
But since in anime, both critics and watchers pertain "to the same class", it's harder for something like this to happen.

So, namelly, a "Citizen Kane" of anime would have to be an anime people praise "because everyone does, right?" but few people actually watched it, so something like Ginga Eyuu Densetsu maybe?

I mean, it's kind of good we don't have such thing in anime, since such behavior encourages something like "Hey, this isn't very good, but i won't say anything to break the circlejerk".
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Oct 9, 1:48 PM

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Osamu Tezuka is one of the oldest Gs of anime.

one of his works like astro boy may take the cake..... but considering how early anime was heavily inspired by walt disney maybe the strange answer to all this is Beauty and the Beast
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Oct 9, 1:56 PM

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Not a movie, but I'd argue the work Isao Takahata did on the Anne of Green Gables adaptation for Nippon Animation's World Masterpiece Theater, Akage no Anne, should be considered in that light. Everything about the music and imagery screams it would be up for many Academy Award nominations and almost certain wins if it were:

A) In English

B) Live action

C) Trimmed to a 3 1/2 hour epic.
 
Oct 9, 2:01 PM
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thewiru said:
Questionnaire said:

No, Citizen Kane is definitely considered the best movie of all time, or at least one of them. It has consistently been topping critic's choice polls for the past century, with pretty much only Vertigo and 2001: A Space Odyssey being put in the same league as it.
As for the influence of Akira, its influence was making anime popular in the West.


No, AKIRA didn't do that, the west was already receiving anime since the, 60's? Early 70's?

Kind of reminds me of Mother's Basement forcing that "Breaking the Habit" gave birth to AMV's.

I'm not making up Akira being popular though. Yeah, anime was obviously a thing in the US, but there's a huge difference in popularity between Macross and Akira, as in most anime fans today probably don't know what Macross, much less people outside of the anime fandom, but Akira is still well known even outside of anime circles. From Wikipedia:

The film had a significant impact on popular culture worldwide, paving the way for the growth of anime and Japanese popular culture in the Western world... The film led the way for the growth in popularity of anime outside Japan as well as Japanese popular culture in the Western world. Akira is considered a forerunner of the second wave of anime fandom that began in the early 1990s and has gained a massive cult following since then. It is credited with setting the scene for anime franchises such as Pokémon, Dragon Ball and Naruto to become global cultural phenomena

From The Washington Post:

Long before the Marvel Cinematic Universe gave the clearance for niche pop culture properties to enter the mainstream, Katsuhiro Otomo’s “Akira” served as an entry point for Westerners into the world of Japanese animation. The frenetic cyberpunk anime, released in Japan on July 15, 1988, showed that cartoons across cultures could address larger social issues

From some random-ass professor:

The turning point for anime’s popularity in the West was the “dark, brutal, exciting, visceral” 1988 Katsuhiro Otomo film “Akira,” according to Napier.
“It started a whole different way of looking at Japan for the U.S., because all of a sudden people saw that [Japanese animation] had a different side to show us, an apocalyptic side, a side that explored some of our own deepest fears.”

There's a million different articles citing Akira as a pop-culture landmark way beyond the scope of what animation in general was considered before. Even iMDB points out that the film is accredited with breaking anime into the mainstream in the US.
As for referring to the US as "The West", sorry, but a lot of texts do it (including my sources!) so I do it too.


 
Oct 9, 3:17 PM

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Within anime I think there are probably a few titles one could point to as being the best but the reality is that because anime is still nowhere near as widely recognized as film the greatest anime still cannot compare to the greatest films in terms of their recognition and acclaim.

Also I feel obligated to mention that the critics who tend to list Citizen Kane as the greatest film are often psuedo-pop-critics and so tend to straddle the line between critical and popular tastes (essentially pandering to both). The other title cited quite often by these types is Vertigo.

There are also critics whom are full blown sycophants to popular taste. Often these types will cite films like The Godfather and Shawshank Redemption as the greatest (the notion of the latter being the greatest film is almost repugnant)

In general more orthodox (and often more discerning) critics will list a title by the likes of Renoir, Fellinni or Ozu as the greatest.

You can often get a feel for a critics sensibilities (or more often their willingness to obsequies to the masses in order to be better received) by the relative proportions of the films from these categories which find themselves in their lists.
 
Oct 10, 3:21 AM

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RogertheShrubber said:
Within anime I think there are probably a few titles one could point to as being the best but the reality is that because anime is still nowhere near as widely recognized as film the greatest anime still cannot compare to the greatest films in terms of their recognition and acclaim.

I think another side issue is that people tend to judge this acclaim through Western critics, anime as a cultural product from Japan is still not that much of a norm outside. And if these people are actually film critics it's even more of an issue. That's why I disagree quite a lot with people mentioning Ghibli movies here. No doubt they are very relevant, but even Spirited away's position (the most popular of the bunch I think) is fundamentally sustained by film critics, not by an equivalent that is devoted to analyze anime. That's why I mentioned Neon Genesis Evangelion.

RogertheShrubber said:
Also I feel obligated to mention that the critics who tend to list Citizen Kane as the greatest film are often psuedo-pop-critics and so tend to straddle the line between critical and popular tastes (essentially pandering to both). The other title cited quite often by these types is Vertigo.

No, they are not. Citizen Kane and Vertigo are just the voice of the majority. Of course every single critic has their own criterion and preference and you don't get the same top from an Ebert than a Rosenbaum.

We are talking about consensus here, and consensus is much more prone to name a The searchers than a The long gray line.

RogertheShrubber said:
In general more orthodox (and often more discerning) critics will list a title by the likes of Renoir, Fellinni or Ozu as the greatest.

Yeah, pick Tokyo story, The rules of the game and and it looks like your typical Sight & Sound top10 list. The problem is that you can find Vertigo and Citizen Kane in the first two spots of that same top10.
 
Oct 10, 4:36 AM

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Satoshi Kon movies perhaps


Questionnaire said:



I'm not making up Akira being popular though. Yeah, anime was obviously a thing in the US, but there's a huge difference in popularity between Macross and Akira, as in most anime fans today probably don't know what Macross, much less people outside of the anime fandom, but Akira is still well known even outside of anime circles. From Wikipedia:




In the USA I agree about Akira, but other countries in Europe, Asia and Latin America had prime time anime on their TV and video years before,including scifi, so transition to second wave fandom was smoother.
Akira and Harmageddon few years before it, paved the way for innovative animation techniques, but anime was already popular even in scifi. Eg Leijiverse and Dirty Pair were popular.
 
Oct 10, 4:52 AM

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Something that fundamentally shaped the sensibilities on the art form?
I'd say the original Astroboy. Tezuka invented most cost saving techniques that inform modern anime.
 
Oct 10, 4:59 PM

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jal90 said:
RogertheShrubber said:
Within anime I think there are probably a few titles one could point to as being the best but the reality is that because anime is still nowhere near as widely recognized as film the greatest anime still cannot compare to the greatest films in terms of their recognition and acclaim.

I think another side issue is that people tend to judge this acclaim through Western critics, anime as a cultural product from Japan is still not that much of a norm outside. And if these people are actually film critics it's even more of an issue. That's why I disagree quite a lot with people mentioning Ghibli movies here. No doubt they are very relevant, but even Spirited away's position (the most popular of the bunch I think) is fundamentally sustained by film critics, not by an equivalent that is devoted to analyze anime. That's why I mentioned Neon Genesis Evangelion.

RogertheShrubber said:
Also I feel obligated to mention that the critics who tend to list Citizen Kane as the greatest film are often psuedo-pop-critics and so tend to straddle the line between critical and popular tastes (essentially pandering to both). The other title cited quite often by these types is Vertigo.

No, they are not. Citizen Kane and Vertigo are just the voice of the majority. Of course every single critic has their own criterion and preference and you don't get the same top from an Ebert than a Rosenbaum.

We are talking about consensus here, and consensus is much more prone to name a The searchers than a The long gray line.

RogertheShrubber said:
In general more orthodox (and often more discerning) critics will list a title by the likes of Renoir, Fellinni or Ozu as the greatest.

Yeah, pick Tokyo story, The rules of the game and and it looks like your typical Sight & Sound top10 list. The problem is that you can find Vertigo and Citizen Kane in the first two spots of that same top10.


The voice of the majority is literally what I'm talking about. They are naming what are considered consensus classics among the masses. That is called pandering. But rather than pander completely by choosing something like star wars they choose the films are loved both critically and generally and therefore they are attempting to tow the line between the two worlds.

That is not the list I'm talking about, it a coincidence that those three found their way in sight and sound. Also floating weeds is far more common among true critics than is tokyo story.

I would recommend searching a bit deeper for other critics because it doesn't sound like you have any experience with the type that I'm talking about. Sight and sound are what I am calling a psuedo-pop-critic or a list which is clearly trying to please everyone.
 
Oct 10, 5:07 PM

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RogertheShrubber said:
jal90 said:

I think another side issue is that people tend to judge this acclaim through Western critics, anime as a cultural product from Japan is still not that much of a norm outside. And if these people are actually film critics it's even more of an issue. That's why I disagree quite a lot with people mentioning Ghibli movies here. No doubt they are very relevant, but even Spirited away's position (the most popular of the bunch I think) is fundamentally sustained by film critics, not by an equivalent that is devoted to analyze anime. That's why I mentioned Neon Genesis Evangelion.


No, they are not. Citizen Kane and Vertigo are just the voice of the majority. Of course every single critic has their own criterion and preference and you don't get the same top from an Ebert than a Rosenbaum.

We are talking about consensus here, and consensus is much more prone to name a The searchers than a The long gray line.


Yeah, pick Tokyo story, The rules of the game and and it looks like your typical Sight & Sound top10 list. The problem is that you can find Vertigo and Citizen Kane in the first two spots of that same top10.


The voice of the majority is literally what I'm talking about. They are naming what are considered consensus classics among the masses. That is called pandering. But rather than pander completely by choosing something like star wars they choose the films are loved both critically and generally and therefore they are attempting to tow the line between the two worlds.

That is not the list I'm talking about, it a coincidence that those three found their way in sight and sound. Also floating weeds is far more common among true critics than is tokyo story.

I would recommend searching a bit deeper for other critics because it doesn't sound like you have any experience with the type that I'm talking about. Sight and sound are what I am calling a psuedo-pop-critic or a list which is clearly trying to please everyone.

Sight and Sound is a site that aggregates votes from critics all over the world. Instead of using fancy terms that fit your own agenda, what about understanding that Sight & Sound is representative of the consensus and it's the consensus what I and everybody in this thread including the OP are talking about.

You don't know what kind of experience I have with what critics, so thanks for the offer but I'm not taking it and I don't care about this distinction between true or false critics coming from you yourself and your own. If I'm talking consensus then I'll mention consensus.

If there's good will on your part, please forgive my passive-aggressiveness. I just think it's not called for, and the ground to discern between true and pseudo critics can't be your own judgement.
Modified by jal90, Oct 10, 5:16 PM
 
Oct 10, 5:27 PM

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jal90 said:
RogertheShrubber said:


The voice of the majority is literally what I'm talking about. They are naming what are considered consensus classics among the masses. That is called pandering. But rather than pander completely by choosing something like star wars they choose the films are loved both critically and generally and therefore they are attempting to tow the line between the two worlds.

That is not the list I'm talking about, it a coincidence that those three found their way in sight and sound. Also floating weeds is far more common among true critics than is tokyo story.

I would recommend searching a bit deeper for other critics because it doesn't sound like you have any experience with the type that I'm talking about. Sight and sound are what I am calling a psuedo-pop-critic or a list which is clearly trying to please everyone.

Sight and Sound is a site that aggregates votes from critics all over the world. Instead of using fancy terms that fit your own agenda, what about understanding that Sight & Sound is representative of the consensus and it's the consensus what I and everybody in this thread including the OP are talking about.

You don't know what kind of experience I have with what critics, so thanks for the offer but I'm not taking it and I don't care about this distinction between true or false critics coming from you yourself and your own. If I'm talking consensus then I'll mention consensus.

If there's good will on your part, please forgive my passive-aggressiveness. I just think it's not called for, and the ground to discern between true and pseudo critics can't be your own judgement.


Aggregate votes will always end up creating the kind of list that i am talking about because there are far more pop-critics than there are pure-critics in the world. All I'm saying is that it is very easy to distinguish between a critics sensibilities by the types of films you find in their top lists.
 
Oct 10, 5:58 PM
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Depends.
In terms of how much it gets praised as a masterpiece by elitists probably either Legend of the Galactic Heroes or Monster.
In terms of influence on Anime probably either Mobile Suit Gundam or Neon Genesis Evangelion.
If you want a balance between the two I guess Eva's your best bet. It has its detractors but so does Citizen Kane and it's mostly from people who were just underwhelmed by it because of high expectations in both cases.
Modified by Bebop_Hakusho, Oct 10, 6:02 PM
 
Oct 10, 6:00 PM

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RogertheShrubber said:
jal90 said:

Sight and Sound is a site that aggregates votes from critics all over the world. Instead of using fancy terms that fit your own agenda, what about understanding that Sight & Sound is representative of the consensus and it's the consensus what I and everybody in this thread including the OP are talking about.

You don't know what kind of experience I have with what critics, so thanks for the offer but I'm not taking it and I don't care about this distinction between true or false critics coming from you yourself and your own. If I'm talking consensus then I'll mention consensus.

If there's good will on your part, please forgive my passive-aggressiveness. I just think it's not called for, and the ground to discern between true and pseudo critics can't be your own judgement.


Aggregate votes will always end up creating the kind of list that i am talking about because there are far more pop-critics than there are pure-critics in the world. All I'm saying is that it is very easy to distinguish between a critics sensibilities by the types of films you find in their top lists.

Ah, I don't disagree with that. But I'm not talking about individual criteria, and this thread is perhaps not fit for individual criteria since it's about wide acclaim, and that's where I'd put Citizen Kane. I'm still lost with your terminology on critics but I get your claim.
 
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