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Poll: Lord El-Melloi II Sei no Jikenbo: Rail Zeppelin Grace Note Episode 12 Discussion


#1
Sep 21, 8:21 AM

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THIS IS AN ANIME ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS THE MANGA BEYOND THIS EPISODE.
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So we got the reveal of the actual criminal at the auction...

I must say, this episode felt thrilling with the standoff on the train. For a penultimate episode, it's reaching the apex of the arc with all the suspense. Interesting choice of music as well. One more episode left!
 
#2
Sep 21, 8:24 AM
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OK I dig this. Definitely not a traditional honkaku mystery type deal....and the character drama! mh!
Officially introducing the series' main antagonist (whose design and personality rocks btw) alongside some really great directing (that's been commonplace for this), we get the kick-off point to the story's overarching conflict coupled with a few knots from past episodes being tied.
I'm not going to start geeking out over the brilliant execution of ideas introduced during the course of this this anime's run with the magic system . Just oh my
Also feeling dumb over the Caules thing cause on certain occassions he was pretty suspicious in retrospect. Lesson in paying attention I guess
This is only the beginning. Season 2 please!!!
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#3
Sep 21, 9:33 AM
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This is the episode where I get to see who actually understood what this anime is and who hasn't assimilated to the idea of an attention span. I expect more of the latter based on previous episode discussion threads.
Also is anyone going to talk about that directing?
Modified by AcelyK, Sep 21, 9:41 AM
 
#4
Sep 21, 10:04 AM

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Thats right bitch get blasted by the power of the holy lance, you have no place in the brotherhood, squadW. They finally revealed master of faker, the doctor and at the same time the main boss of the story, like i would really like this to be a preparation for the second season now that they showed this much. Next week will be the last episode and also probably will be some kind of a epilogue to the current arc.

Finger crossed for second season announcement.

Also one thing.

I get that some people may be mad that all this mystery was built on one character we basically never even saw or knew existed (like yeah there were mentions about a murderer years ago but still), but that is becasue this arc is kind of his introduction and "big reveal", and that is why it would be great if the continuation came right after the season ends.
Modified by Swagernator, Sep 21, 10:14 AM
 
#5
Sep 21, 10:12 AM

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Doctor Heartless... that an interesting name lol.
They finally revealed who the bad guy was in this episode.

That lance attack by Gray... that sure was powerful.

One more episode to go.

 
#6
Sep 21, 10:22 AM
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this week probably is the best episode
waver words, gray 3rd state holy spear and magic eye train is awesome
 
#7
Sep 21, 11:03 AM
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This was the best episode so far... the build-up, the thrill, the music and the animation... It was pure eye-candy! Also that last attack of Gray, oof...


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#8
Sep 21, 11:08 AM

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I seriously thought no Fate adaptation could be worse than Apocrypha.
Extra proved me wrong. I then, naively, thought Extra would be the absolute rock bottom. Once again, I was wrong. This anime deserves the title of the worst Fate anime.
 
#9
Sep 21, 11:12 AM

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The music and animation was awesome this ep.
The one behind everything was Dr Heartless, well never heard of him before. The truth about the servant is revealed and we catch a glimpse of Gray's past. Got to hear Altria's voice and the noble phantasm in the end was lit.

Just one more episode left. Hoping for a season 2 announcement
"Just because I’ve gotten weaker, it doesn’t mean that you got stronger, right?"
 
Sep 21, 11:47 AM

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Very strong episode that was well orchestrated. Though, I would have loved to see Waver to be more active but that is outside of his abilities as a strategist.
 
Sep 21, 11:48 AM
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I started watching all the episodes a few days ago, and I caught up today. Maybe I watched them too fast, because I have forgotten why various things matter.

I like the historical setting and the magic, and I don't mind crime mysteries based on a magic premise. But it seems new magical premises are made up several times over this show. That makes things easy for the writer, but it makes me feel detached from the mysteries.

Still, it's entertaining to watch the duels and to see more of the Fate world.
 
Sep 21, 12:35 PM

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We Wave Motion Gun now





SEAL THIRTEEN, DECISION STARTO! The whole setup + Kajiura OST was really amazing

I like how they explain about relation between Iskandar physical appearance and Faker

And Fran Blasted Tree used by Caules T_T

Modified by JuuzouXIII, Sep 21, 12:40 PM
 
Sep 21, 12:47 PM

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Didn't think the culprit would be a new character, a bit of a shocker!

Liked how waver was able to provoke Faker from escaping with her master, jealousy is logic's enemy for real! Cannot wait for that face off between her and Gray.

The visuals on this episode were top notch!
¡Ay, caramba! --- Bart Simpson

 
Sep 21, 12:51 PM
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Eh, this seemed really contrived and out of nowhere. This anime always manages to lose me when explaining things.
Doctor Heartless we've never really known. He was only mentioned a few times while everything was unfolding. They've been building up to something pretty big (seemingly) and then it's someone we've never seen before and barely know anything about. That's a pretty big anti-climax.
Him mimicking Caules seemed really out of nowhere with very few (if any) clues as to him mimicking Caules.
I guess I'm going to rewatch most of it to see if I'm missing something or if this anime really fucked up in properly putting in clues (and I don't mean really obvious ones, but ones you can at least spot by paying attention that are not incredibly vague and unspecific). There just seem to be a lot of jumps in logic everywhere.
 
Sep 21, 12:55 PM

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JakkoFourEyes said:
Eh, this seemed really contrived and out of nowhere. This anime always manages to lose me when explaining things.
Doctor Heartless we've never really known. He was only mentioned a few times while everything was unfolding. They've been building up to something pretty big (seemingly) and then it's someone we've never seen before and barely know anything about. That's a pretty big anti-climax.
Him mimicking Caules seemed really out of nowhere with very few (if any) clues as to him mimicking Caules.
I guess I'm going to rewatch most of it to see if I'm missing something or if this anime really fucked up in properly putting in clues (and I don't mean really obvious ones, but ones you can at least spot by paying attention that are not incredibly vague and unspecific). There just seem to be a lot of jumps in logic everywhere.

That pretty much encapsulates the biggest problem with this anime: ever answer is some contrived bullshit no one could figure out without the explanation.
 
Sep 21, 1:00 PM
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CondemneDio said:
JakkoFourEyes said:
Eh, this seemed really contrived and out of nowhere. This anime always manages to lose me when explaining things.
Doctor Heartless we've never really known. He was only mentioned a few times while everything was unfolding. They've been building up to something pretty big (seemingly) and then it's someone we've never seen before and barely know anything about. That's a pretty big anti-climax.
Him mimicking Caules seemed really out of nowhere with very few (if any) clues as to him mimicking Caules.
I guess I'm going to rewatch most of it to see if I'm missing something or if this anime really fucked up in properly putting in clues (and I don't mean really obvious ones, but ones you can at least spot by paying attention that are not incredibly vague and unspecific). There just seem to be a lot of jumps in logic everywhere.

That pretty much encapsulates the biggest problem with this anime: ever answer is some contrived bullshit no one could figure out without the explanation.

Even with explanation I'm struggling to see what's going on tbh. Or rather, it still doesnt make sense to me
 
Sep 21, 1:23 PM

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Well that was an epic episode.
lihle808 said:
Didn't think the culprit would be a new character, a bit of a shocker!
Same! I was expecting one of the known characters.


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Sep 21, 2:19 PM

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Overall a pretty dope episode. Definitely didn't expect the outcome of the case to be a "new" character. I think it's a pity that I wasn't really able to solve the case myself, cause that's what I like the most about this kind of pemise for a show. Maybe I am just too used to how shows in the west are dealt with when it comes to crime solving.

Really loved the final scene with Gray and Rhongomyniad, great to see it in action again. Loved the OST that was used as well.
 
Sep 21, 2:23 PM

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I actually knew that chant holy shit, I know i've been watching or playing fate for a while but for some reason I was surprised when proto type arthur's chant was used for this. hahaha.

That was cool!

I don't really know how to judge the anime though, I've been enjoying it the whole way through, but I admit that i'm not really impressed by anything in the end. its just fun fate stuff. Felt like a grand order event with a bit more seriousness if I'm being honest. Which I'll eat that shit up but yknow.
 
Sep 21, 2:55 PM

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Good episode. An interesting turn of events, the culprit is Mr Heartless. He is the master of the faker. Gray vs Hephaestion is good with that NP at the end. To the next episode.


 
Sep 21, 4:29 PM
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Nothing makes sense including the explanations you just assume something happened in your head and run along with it. Wish they leaned in to the murder on the train mystery more because the whole allure of that is having the audience make their own deductions.

No one's thinking "Mmmm the leylines have been assembled all this time and the fairy who lost his heart used the Church man to carry out the murders to extract the mystic eyes thus the targeting of Trisha and the sudden attacks by a heroic spirit (etc)." lmaoooo

That is the equivalent of those children that create an explanation of why you didn't tag them in a game of tag "you didn't tag me because i did a backflip which makes me invincible cible for two seconds and now my real body is in germany and this is a hologram".
 
Sep 21, 5:08 PM

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Wow!! They really made us wait for this... awesome end to the rail zeppelin arc... the wrap up, confrontation, music.. animation... wow!! I'll really miss this anime when it ends. Kinda wish for a second season since there is source material.

Strange tho... aren't Heartless and Adashino related? Was expecting Adashino to betray....

Concept of a prayer vs a curse to release more power from Add was poetic and the interjection of Saber's voice during Gray's activation sequence gave me the chills!!
 
Sep 21, 5:10 PM

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Always love Gray's special attack they are great for eyes and for making the show more enjoyable.
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Sep 21, 6:05 PM
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TRAIN GUNDAM

It's a pretty show if not a memorable one. Writer kinda sucks at teh whole mystery part.
 
Sep 21, 6:15 PM
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Well, the culprit finally makes his appearance and I was surprised that Caules has been replaced since the beginning of the trip in the Rail Zeppelin, but without a doubt Doctor Heartless turned out to be someone very ingenious, this man was several steps forward, but Waver knew To live up to this wizard's wit.

I laughed a lot about how Reines and Caules arrived at the Rail Zeppelin, what a most exciting way to travel and Reines looks so cute flying through the skies.
What surprise me was to see that Adashino collaborated with Waver, she always acted suspiciously, but I suppose it was to deceive the real culprit.

Callebaut was practically a puppet controlled by Doctor Heartless in the murder of Trisha and also in the murders of the mystical eye holders of 7 years ago.

I'm still surprised that Ivette collaborated with Doctor Heartless, what a greedy girl, I hope Waver punishes Ivette severely.
In simple words the goal of Doctor Heartless was to create a Heroic Spirit and have him as Servant, in this case he invoked Hephaestion, but Waver reveals her true identity and this turned out to be double of Ishkandar, since she can use the Noble Phantasm of Ishkandar.

The fight against Doctor Heartless and Faker was very good personally speaking, although it was divided by the dialogues between Waver and Faker, where he revealed several revelations that made the woman in front of him angry and this resulted in Faker disobeying Doctor Heartless and the magician decides to use an Ace under his sleeve and releases the Son of Einnashe, but Waver had a lot of support to defeat Doctor Heartless, among them was Callebaut who gave a test of his mystical eye to Faker and Olga Marie next to Melvin and the other magicians at the auction managed to suppress Einnashe's son and the Rail Zeppelin itself gave the coup de grace to Einnashe's son.
But before claiming victory, Faker uses her mystical eye and she paralyzes Gray and Callebaut, then incapacitates the old man and before she manages to attack Gray, Waver throws the amulet that belonged to Trisha and Gray manages to seriously hurt Faker, but she still has the strength to fight and she invokes her Noble Phantasm, while Gray is left alone and she releases the seal to use Rhongomyniad and now the question is, will Gray have defeated Faker?
 
Sep 21, 6:17 PM

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The other side of the King eh? One who was never named but followed the King. All those Zero vibes were incoming with Waver mentioning the words of the King of Conquerors, Iskandar. Glory lies beyond the horizon.

Also the fight between two pseudo Noble Phantasm is great. Hecatic Wheel derived from one of the King's NP, Gordius Wheel is really the true worth of the Faker.

JuuzouXIII said:


SEAL THIRTEEN, DECISION STARTO! The whole setup + Kajiura OST was really amazing

I like how they explain about relation between Iskandar physical appearance and Faker

And Fran Blasted Tree used by Caules T_T


I really like how they reference to the Fate franchise. I was hoping to see the actual round table not just the voices when Gray released the seal.
When someone asks me why I like anime, I'd say Just Because.

 
Sep 21, 7:46 PM

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Doctor Heartless sounds like the name of a B-grade comic book villain lol

Man, if the train can use msytic eyes to make a laser beam, why didn't it do that the first time it was stuck in the Child of Einnashe?

Which work is Touko Travel from? I don't think it was in Kara no Kyoukai, unless it was a line in the books that I don't remember.
 
Sep 21, 8:59 PM

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Yea, when you reveal a villain, you're suppose to have at least of heard of his existence or have been previously introduced to him. Still doubt Adashino's "innocence". The previously introduced stuff was good, this guy supposedly being the sole villain was eh.

Anyways, in this Fate spin-off, the spells have been consistently weird and kind of stupid / nonsensical.





 
Sep 21, 9:30 PM

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I really like how they tied Gray to Saber. Usually these types of connections in other Fate related works to a famous character from another show can be quite superficial and really just put in there for the purpose of tropes or novelty, but at least for Gray it serves as room for potentially interesting character development.

Also really impressed by (Gray's VA) Ueda-san's performance during the Rhongomyniad scene.
 
Sep 21, 9:34 PM

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Luchse said:
Well that was an epic episode.
lihle808 said:
Didn't think the culprit would be a new character, a bit of a shocker!
Same! I was expecting one of the known characters.
I thought Caules was the one since he got caught on that binding spell, but hell!

Personally I wanted to to be Adashino, the bitch annoys me with her stinky attitude. So glad Faker blasted her!
¡Ay, caramba! --- Bart Simpson

 
Sep 21, 10:47 PM

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Whoa, don't lift the restraints off of Gray!! The ending was cold af. Good episode. I couldn't predict anything that happened in this episode in terms of the reveal.lol
 
Sep 22, 12:01 AM

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The mysteries finally revealed and we get to see a bad ass op Gray, nthng more to ask for. Waver himself was outstanding once again.
Gray, Rave, Crave, Deprave.
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Grave for you.

 
Sep 22, 12:38 AM
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glassknuckles said:
Doctor Heartless sounds like the name of a B-grade comic book villain lol

Man, if the train can use msytic eyes to make a laser beam, why didn't it do that the first time it was stuck in the Child of Einnashe?
Those were exactly my thoughts this episode. I'm taking a point off my rating just because of that cringeworthy name. There probably actually was a villain named Dr Heartless in some cheesy comic somewhere.

I'd like to think there's some reason, either technical or logistical in nature, other than simply for the sake of the plot, that the train couldn't do that the first time, but that didn't keep me from having the thought anyway. I've been enjoying each episode less and less as we go along, so my reaction to this one should have come as no surprise, but I still found it rather a letdown.
Google Translate is so bad at translating Japanese that it's only barely better than Funimation.
 
Sep 22, 1:10 AM

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Yautja said:
Yea, when you reveal a villain, you're suppose to have at least of heard of his existence or have been previously introduced to him. Still doubt Adashino's "innocence". The previously introduced stuff was good, this guy supposedly being the sole villain was eh.

In fairness, he was referenced a few episodes back by Sisigo and Luvia. I thought he was described also as someone's brother in law, but maybe I didn't understand that right.

kyoudai said:

I'd like to think there's some reason, either technical or logistical in nature, other than simply for the sake of the plot, that the train couldn't do that the first time, but that didn't keep me from having the thought anyway.

I might go back and look if there was some dialogue saying this particular train car, whatever, they called it, can't be used for some reason, like they were already in the child of einnashe before they knew what hit them and they don't have an area of effect spell

this episode for me was just kinda "..okay...imma just go with it"
Was a bit hard to get what was being said. Like Faker is Alexander's magical body double, I guess?
 
Sep 22, 5:35 AM

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The explanations are still so hard to understand. What's that shadow of Iskander without a name bullshit? What does that even mean?
 
Sep 22, 7:24 AM

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Damn! That last part was overwhelmingly great! with Kajiura OST as well! really astonishing!
5/5.
 
Sep 22, 7:43 AM

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Nope, not following any of this. Fuck this whole arc, the self-contained mysteries in the beginning were so much better.
 
Sep 22, 8:35 AM

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A few clarifications. Rail Zeppelin is the arc where the main antagonist of Case Files (aka Waver's Moriarty) appears, it won't give answers, but leave more questions. Like why did Heartless need a Servant at all. There's a reason this isn't answered in Rail Zeppelin.

The investigation Luvia and co were conducting blatantly linked the "man without a heart" who was investigating for Marisbury Animusphere was connected to the murders as Trisha was looking up this. They also mentioned in early episodes the mysterious former head of Modern Magecraft. So Waver wasn't the only one allowed in. The theft of the cloak of Iskandar being performed by the killer should have rule out anyone outside Modern Magecraft faculty because nobody but a Modern Magecraft student or teacher could have had access. Obviously the anime obscure the inner thoughts and monologues of connecting dots, but the who and how aren't as important as "why" in the show. This was stated many times. Who and how are fall apart when magic and mages are involved.

Doctor Heartless isn't his real name either. He's just called like that because his heart was stolen (literally speaking, his heart is in the faery realm) and magi like to rub in. I don't remember his real name, but he's related to Adashino (iirc, the subs messed up, and isn't brother in law but actually "adopted brother").

If anyone is confused about the shadow aspect, think in episode 0 where they explain about Shadows and afterimages. Faker isn't Hephaestion, she's just his nameless twin sister who acted as a double for him and Iskandar to redirect the curses toward her. She used a fake name to introduce herself because it's not her real identity. It seems that adult Waver resembles both the real Hephaestion (temperament) and Eumenes (strategist role/appearance - last is according to Faker) from Iskandar's line to Lord El Melloi II in FGO lines.
Modified by Thess, Sep 22, 8:43 AM
 
Sep 22, 9:28 AM
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glassknuckles said:

I might go back and look if there was some dialogue saying this particular train car, whatever, they called it, can't be used for some reason, like they were already in the child of einnashe before they knew what hit them and they don't have an area of effect spell

That was my guess (but only a guess) as well — that it couldn't do anything once already tangled up within it.

Thess said:
A few clarifications.
Thanks for clarifying and explaining, Thess. I've got a lot better understanding of what was going on — and why — thanks to your explanation. I tend to forget details in seasonals because they're spread over 3 months and also because I usually watch between 30 and 45 of them each season. When I read your comment, though, it reminded me that a "man without a heart" was mentioned a bit ago. So, no, he's not just appearing out of thin air. I feel better about the series as a whole now. As for the name, knowing that it wasn't something he chose for himself does make a difference. It's more of a sarcastic, snide comment on his failure to guard his own body, I'm guessing?

I've seen most of the Fate anime and movies (dropped Extra: Last Encore), and learned all I could from FGO when I played it (which of course mostly pertains to Servants, Chaldea, and not much more), but haven't played the other games, read the books, etc, so I know that I'm not particularly informed on the Fate multiverse. Having an explanation targeted to my level helps tremendously.

I feel like the entire series would have made much more sense — and could been more enjoyable — if I had watched it better informed. That may well be the distinction between those who love Rail Zep and those who hate it.
Google Translate is so bad at translating Japanese that it's only barely better than Funimation.
 
Sep 22, 9:51 AM

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@kyoudai: All details were there but like some were wayyyy too subtle and blink you miss in the anime (Unless you know Caules character well and how he's not that talented magus so far to pull such healing feat). Olga did question that but "Caules" made up his classes were good, though yeah, suspicious. Yvette's eagerness to bid. Adashino was too purposefully suspicious to be nothing but a red herring. Plus she's the Cop rival role in a Sherlock Holmes narrative, she could mess up and intervene, but she's not the culprit (also we see Waver rule her out explicitely in the previous episode). But the who and how are less important than why. The why was the servant summon. The why of the Servant summon is answered in the last arc of Case Files.

About Heartless' nickname: It's been a while, but I think his heart was stolen when he was young, he's mostly feared than mocked, because of his existence as without a heart makes him closer to the Age of Gods/the Other side (for example, even Kotomine has a heart, made of mud, but a heart, he can't survive long without one), in mystery level, so surpassing modern magecraft. He was a head of a Faculty without being one of the Lords, that kind of shows he's talented.
 
Sep 22, 10:46 AM

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"Hecatic Wheel"? Dafuq is this?
Did Nasu mean "Hekate Wheel"?

Oh boy...
Modified by Kamiyan3991, Sep 22, 11:13 AM
 
Sep 22, 11:15 AM

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Kamiyan3991 said:
"Hecatic Wheel"? Dafuq is this?
Dictionary has only "hectic".

Nasu, boy, learn English please.


I don't think it's got to do with "hectic." The Hecatic (ヘカティック) is in reference to Hecate and the Ages of Gods Greek magecraft, iirc.
 
Sep 22, 11:43 AM
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After all that deduction Gray is finally unleashed to show her true power
 
Sep 22, 1:34 PM

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Thess said:
Kamiyan3991 said:
"Hecatic Wheel"? Dafuq is this?
Dictionary has only "hectic".

Nasu, boy, learn English please.


I don't think it's got to do with "hectic." The Hecatic (ヘカティック) is in reference to Hecate and the Ages of Gods Greek magecraft, iirc.

Proper term is "Hekate Wheel":
https://www.ancient-symbols.com/symbols-directory/hecate-wheel.html
 
Sep 22, 2:18 PM

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Kamiyan3991 said:
Thess said:


I don't think it's got to do with "hectic." The Hecatic (ヘカティック) is in reference to Hecate and the Ages of Gods Greek magecraft, iirc.

Proper term is "Hekate Wheel":
https://www.ancient-symbols.com/symbols-directory/hecate-wheel.html


Not for that Noble Phantasm, it's not. I'm sure they also used hekatic magecraft for the Hekate-blessed spells too but I can't be bothered to check the LN right now. It's simply Hekate name as an adjective.
 
Sep 22, 3:15 PM

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Wow talk about going off the rails. This episode made bo sense whatsoever
 
Sep 22, 6:27 PM

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owie my boi karabo got played twice feelsbadman :(

also aside from the fact Rhongomyniad is a literal death lazer, i'm pretty sure when Gray was 'charging it up' it actually had the same effects (bubbles of light floating upwards from the ground and around her) that saber had when she activated her excalibur in fate zero.
Also we see a tiny bit more of Gray's past i guess?

I'm pretty sure this anime is suppose to be the 'murder mystery crime solving detective' adaptation for fate so thats why action seems a bit low for your usual fate anime and more bigbrain ,but damn last 5ish mins was packed with action
Hopefully season 2? Please and thanks?
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Sep 22, 10:25 PM

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Fukuyama Jun just can't voice a "serious" character without sounding like Lelouch, can he? When Heartless used his Command Seal to summon Hephaestion I was like "wtf, is he going to Geass them all?". As for the rest of the episode, it was ok. I'm not well versed in Fate lore to properly comment on anything and watching this purely for entertainment has been a good ride, so I have no complaints about anything.
 
Sep 23, 12:23 AM

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I haven't mentioned this before but Karabo is the shit. Such a badass old man.

And well, that sure is a way to conclude a case. Gray's last scene activating Rhongomyniad while hearing the voice of Saber and the other knights gave me goosebumps, honestly.

Overall, it was a pretty good episode and probably, the best one in the series so far. The OST and general directing was absolutely on point. And not to mention that seeing how some events from previous cases were used to lead to this final resolution was quite satisfying to see.

One more episode to go. Really looking forward to this series' finale.
 
Sep 23, 1:00 AM

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They only had Kawasumi (Saber) and Daisuke Ono (Kay) for the seal restrictions. But some of those VAs are kind of expensive to hire for that scene (Bedivere is voiced by Mamoru Miyano for example) so is understandable.
 
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