| The recognition of “they” as a singular, non-gender-specific pronoun comes as its usage grows in popularity, especially among people who identify as neither male nor female. However, these adoptees frequently face critics who claim the usage is not “grammatically correct”. Merriam-Webster wrote a pre-emptive clapback on its blog. “We will note that ‘they’ has been in consistent use as a singular pronoun since the late 1300s; that the development of singular ‘they’ mirrors the development of the singular ‘you’ from the plural ‘you’, yet we don’t complain that singular ‘you’ is ungrammatical; and that regardless of what detractors say, nearly everyone uses the singular ‘they’ in casual conversation and often in formal writing.” Emily Brewster, a senior editor at the company, said: “Merriam-Webster does not try to be at the vanguard of change in the language.” But, she noted: “Over the past few decades, there has been so much evidence that this is a fully established use of ‘they’ in the English language. This is not new.” https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/sep/17/merriam-webster-they-nonbinary-pronoun a popular official dictionary finally added it eh, i thought the word they as nonbinary word is already part of the dictionary lol you learn something new everyday |
| I feel like this is more-so "Yeah, it always meant that." and people reacting like they're being progressive. Like... the first person to decide to be called 'they' didn't change the use of the word. It was always an acceptable use. No one ever doubted that. |
| They has been used as a singular pronoun since the late 1300s? What? Anyways, it's some weird stuff. |
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| I learned 'they' as a neutral pronoun in my high school english lessons. I was sure that use was already recognized by the grammars, even though there were people against it only because they associate it with some kind of 'LGBTQ agenda'. |
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| That's how it should be. Dictionaries are always supposed to reflect actual usage and noone can deny that it is being used like that more and more, whether they agree with it or not, it's happening. The first thing you learn when you study anything related to linguistics is that it's always supposed to be descriptive of how words are actually used in real life, by real people. When it becomes prescriptive, it becomes political and a dictionary should not have a political agenda. When tens or hundreds of millions people use 'they' as a singular, non-binary pronoun it would just be silly to not have that usage reflected in dictionaries. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
PsychoticDave said: Exactly! I just find it odd they post a bulletin (news release) saying it as much. It's like McDonalds having a press release to say "We're now serving chicken nugget-bits. We'll remind everyone its always been bits of chicken meat",response: Okay?..I feel like this is more-so "Yeah, it always meant that." and people reacting like they're being progressive. Like... the first person to decide to be called 'they' didn't change the use of the word. It was always an acceptable use. No one ever doubted that. |
| "In the end the World really doesn't need a Superman. Just a Brave one" |
Pullman said: I would be in favor for both prescriptive and descriptive entries: prescriptive when it comes to how words are actually supposed to be used and descriptive when it comes to how words are actually used. Prescriptive dictionaries have the advantage that they preserve the meaning and even though I've been using singular they myself, it still sounds sometimes a bit better to use generic he, "he or she" or to use "they" with plural nouns. But there is no standard authority for the English language anyway, so whateverThe first thing you learn when you study anything related to linguistics is that it's always supposed to be descriptive of how words are actually used in real life, by real people. When it becomes prescriptive, it becomes political and a dictionary should not have a political agenda. When tens or hundreds of millions people use 'they' as a singular, non-binary pronoun it would just be silly to not have that usage reflected in dictionaries. Kosmonaut said: I learnt to use "he or she" if the sex of the other person was unknown and "they" if the gender was not relevant as in "they say", "to each their own". Other than that, there's the "generic he", which however is way more prevalent in German and I think also in DutchI learned 'they' as a neutral pronoun in my high school english lessons. I was sure that use was already recognized by the grammars, even though there were people against it only because they associate it with some kind of 'LGBTQ agenda'. |
| I've used "they" when gender is nonspecific or unknown since forever, and I'm not a fan of the infinite gender ideology. It's just shorter and easier than always saying him or her,he or she etc. Though they are specifically saying it's a "nonbinary" addition. |
MasterGlythSep 18, 2019 1:56 PM
 I can see you |
Noboru said: There are some neopronouns being thrown around in some dutch circles, but it's not catching on, specially because most gender differences in grammar are not observed nowadays, aside from neuter, that's still followed. I'd say most dutch people don't know the gender of most nouns, since we use the traditional masculine form for most things. When it comes to pronouns, it isn't that strange to use a type of 'generic he'. Also, some nouns are still gendered, mainly professions, (like, between female and male students, like Student and Studentin, which would be student and studente in dutch), but most people wouldn't bat an eye if a girl said 'Ich bin ein Student'/'Ik ben student'.Kosmonaut said: I learnt to use "he or she" if the sex of the other person was unknown and "they" if the gender was not relevant as in "they say", "to each their own". Other than that, there's the "generic he", which however is way more prevalent in German and I think also in DutchI learned 'they' as a neutral pronoun in my high school english lessons. I was sure that use was already recognized by the grammars, even though there were people against it only because they associate it with some kind of 'LGBTQ agenda'. |
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| but they, them theey're, it, have always been non gender specific so what's new? |
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus  |
| Meh, I'm alright with that I guess. I obviously don't support the infinite, "nonbinary" gender crap but "they" can be useful in a situation where you literally don't know the person's gender. |
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Kosmonaut said: "neuter" isn't used as a gender-neutral pronoun neither in German nor in English. Swedish has "hen". So people have also tried with gender-neutral pronouns in Dutch?There are some neopronouns being thrown around in some dutch circles, but it's not catching on, specially because most gender differences in grammar are not observed nowadays, aside from neuter, that's still followed. Also, some nouns are still gendered, mainly professions, (like, between female and male students, like Student and Studentin, which would be student and studente in dutch), but most people wouldn't bat an eye if a girl said 'Ich bin ein Student'/'Ik ben student'. If we go by profession, then the generic he is also used for the description of a profession, for example: "Bäcker" (m/w/d) (baker; abbreviations stand for "male", "female" and "diverse"). However, a female person would have said "ich bin eine Stundentin"/"ik ben studente". Though this example is very bad, because people would rather say: "I am studying" rather than "I am a student". So let's just use "baker" or "actor" vs "actress". Females would use the feminine form when talking about themselves and the male form when talking about the job in general.Also, if I'm not mistaken, then Dutch is slowly losing gendered-language. |
Noboru said: Yeah, neuter is used only for objects, not people, as far as I know. Some people were coming up with some gender-neutral pronouns in more progressive circles, like some tumblr users invented zhey or what-not, but it failed and never got out of afore-mentioned circles.Kosmonaut said: "neuter" isn't used as a gender-neutral pronoun neither in German nor in English. Swedish has "hen". So people have also tried with gender-neutral pronouns in Dutch?There are some neopronouns being thrown around in some dutch circles, but it's not catching on, specially because most gender differences in grammar are not observed nowadays, aside from neuter, that's still followed. If we go by profession, then the generic he is also used for the description of a profession, for example: "Bäcker" (m/w/d) (baker; abbreviations stand for "male", "female" and "diverse"). However, a female person would have said "ich bin eine Stundentin"/"ik ben studente". Though this example is very bad, because people would rather say: "I am studying" rather than "I am a student". So let's just use "baker" or "actor" vs "actress". Females would use the feminine form when talking about themselves and the male form when talking about the job in general. My example was just language teaching textbook example lol, but I think you got the gist of it. There are female and male versions for professions, but it wouldn't be strange for a female to use the male one when talking about herself. It would be something like a boku-girl in anime.Also, if I'm not mistaken, then Dutch is slowly losing gendered-language. Yes, I'd describe it as such. We are getting closer to english and further away from german in that regard. There are some dialects though, mainly southern ones, from where I come from, that still maintain most gendered language and still use the feminine pronouns and articles for nouns. In the bigger cities like Amsterdam and Rotterdam, it's a sign you're not local if you still make such distinctions. |
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Kosmonaut said: I have never heard of any attempts like that in German. At most, it's about using the "gender star" in official documents (like "student*e" indicating both females and males)Some people were coming up with some gender-neutral pronouns in more progressive circles, like some tumblr users invented zhey or what-not, but it failed and never got out of afore-mentioned circles. There are female and male versions for professions, but it wouldn't be strange for a female to use the male one when talking about herself. It would be something like a boku-girl in anime. We have that, too, but it's become more rare ever since we got a female chancellor. So girls/women have been more encouraged to use the specific feminine version when talking about themselvesThere are some dialects though, mainly southern ones, from where I come from, that still maintain most gendered language and still use the feminine pronouns and articles for nouns. In the bigger cities like Amsterdam and Rotterdam, it's a sign you're not local if you still make such distinctions. The feel when language preservation happens in some smaller regions and not in the big cities... well, German is probably not that much safer. It's possible that Icelandic will be the only Germanic language with 3 genders in wide usage within the next few centuries |
| Sounds like The Guardian fucked up calling it non-binary. It's a gender neutral pronoun that has been used for at least hundreds of years. This is different from non-binary. The article contents of Webster's representatives don't make it sound like if they will also ad it as a non-binary pronoun. I'm not sure how common it is as a non-binary but probably more than xer and xe and ze and whatnot. |
traedSep 18, 2019 3:08 PM
DateYutaka said: traed said: Sounds like The Guardian fucked up calling it non-binary. It's a gender neutral pronoun that has been used for at least hundreds of years. This is different from non-binary. The article contents of Webster's representatives don't make it sound like if they will also ad it as a non-binary pronoun. in the modern paradigm Non-Binary and gender Natural mena the same ot alot people Non-binary basically means "other than male or female" a third gender etc...it isn't used to mean same thing |
| I use "they" as a singular pronoun when referring to cisgender people whose gender is not mentioned. "He or she" and so on all feel super unnatural to me to be honest. Maybe it has something to do with my native language. |
| @149597871 Same but I'm not sure if it's the rules governing social manners or the language. Same thing happens with a woman and I'm unsure if they are married or not (maybe not similar to "they" moment)--I use ma'am. Growing up, rings on finger didn't always establish the status so waited with that neutral word until told which they prefer. Onii-chan said: That's a rabbit hole too deep to traverse down in this thread loltraed said: Third gender? I thought people were joking about it.Non-binary basically means "other than male or female" a third gender etc...it isn't used to mean same thing |
| "In the end the World really doesn't need a Superman. Just a Brave one" |
| so we're in an age where everything needs to revolve around the lgbt huh |
| An admin's dickhead Soul banned me from MAL t('v't) |
DateYutaka said: I'm wondering how purist Japanese is. Like do you have trouble reading century-old texts?all Languages change over this is why there is Purism movements these days 149597871 said: You can get used to proverbs and other constructions that would make no sense if translated literally. Hence why even at first "off-sounding" grammar like "[...]for they are..." might eventually sound and look right to you if you hear and read it enough.I use "they" as a singular pronoun when referring to cisgender people whose gender is not mentioned. "He or she" and so on all feel super unnatural to me to be honest. Maybe it has something to do with my native language. |
| I identify as the number 69. |
SpamuraiSensei said: Too bad 1488 isn't in the dictionary as it's very much a noun, adjective AND verb.I identify as the number 69. |
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DateYutaka said: Gotta summon @StudyingEnglish for help, because I'm too tired to decipher the code myselfof you Kenken I youe should have to b e bale ot read evryting |
| We should burn all Merriam Webster dictionaries. Not because of the pronoun thing, just because it has a bunch of big words that I don't understand and that makes me uncomfortable. |
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Noboru said: I'd wager it's something along the lines of: 'Of course you can, you should be able to read everything' or 'if you can, you should be able to read everything' or even 'If you Kenken (a japanese puzzle) I (maybe it's a level thingy? or just a void letter), you should be able to read everything', which could mean, 'if you're not dumb, you should be able to read everything'. Maybe I'm reading too much into the code? lolDateYutaka said: Gotta summon @StudyingEnglish for help, because I'm too tired to decipher the code myselfof you Kenken I youe should have to b e bale ot read evryting |
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Kosmonaut said: 39 m4te 4 z3 3xpl3n4t10n :DNoboru said: I'd wager it's something along the lines of: 'Of course you can, you should be able to read everything' or 'if you can, you should be able to read everything' or even 'If you Kenken (a japanese puzzle) I (maybe it's a level thingy? or just a void letter), you should be able to read everything', which could mean, 'if you're not dumb, you should be able to read everything'. Maybe I'm reading too much into the code? lolGotta summon @StudyingEnglish for help, because I'm too tired to decipher the code myself |
| I was taught in high school "they" can also be used in gender neutral way. I never got that "non-binary/third gender" aspect when using they or never thought it's silly or wrongly used, but my mother tongue can have affected that view. Swedish word "hen" was just off hand mentioned during class that it exist and was never mentioned again. Noboru said: Pullman said: I would be in favor for both prescriptive and descriptive entries: prescriptive when it comes to how words are actually supposed to be used and descriptive when it comes to how words are actually used. Prescriptive dictionaries have the advantage that they preserve the meaning and even though I've been using singular they myself, it still sounds sometimes a bit better to use generic he, "he or she" or to use "they" with plural nouns. But there is no standard authority for the English language anyway, so whateverThe first thing you learn when you study anything related to linguistics is that it's always supposed to be descriptive of how words are actually used in real life, by real people. When it becomes prescriptive, it becomes political and a dictionary should not have a political agenda. When tens or hundreds of millions people use 'they' as a singular, non-binary pronoun it would just be silly to not have that usage reflected in dictionaries. Wouldn't that though lead to favoring one dialect over other? I can't think of English word to compare expect fag and spaz used in USA vs UK, but Finnish word itikka can mean either a cow, a pig, a wild animal, mosquito or any insect depending what dialect you speak. |
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konkelo said: Isn't that the whole point if you want to standardize language? There is Oxford/"Queen's English" for the UK and "General American (English)" for the USA.Wouldn't that though lead to favoring one dialect over other? I can't think of English word to compare expect fag and spaz used in USA vs UK, but Finnish word itikka can mean either a cow, a pig, a wild animal, mosquito or any insect depending what dialect you speak. lol, what does it mean in your dialect? xD |
Noboru said: konkelo said: Isn't that the whole point if you want to standardize language? There is Oxford/"Queen's English" for the UK and "General American (English)" for the USA.Wouldn't that though lead to favoring one dialect over other? I can't think of English word to compare expect fag and spaz used in USA vs UK, but Finnish word itikka can mean either a cow, a pig, a wild animal, mosquito or any insect depending what dialect you speak. lol, what does it mean in your dialect? xD Idk idea that one dialect is seen as more "correct" bugs me. Ideally when one is standardizing language they'd pick up something from every dialect, or they just accept all dialects as correct way I think Karelian language chose that one. For me it means insect in non-formal way similar to ötökkä and öttiäinen, but with a bit more annoying tone latched on it and öttiäinen being cutesy word instead. |
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konkelo said: Well, languages like French and English work with "prestige dialects" and others like German include characteristics in pronunciation and vocabulary from different regions with different (informal) standards.Idk idea that one dialect is seen as more "correct" bugs me. Ideally when one is standardizing language they'd pick up something from every dialect, or they just accept all dialects as correct way I think Karelian language chose that one. For me it means insect in non-formal way similar to ötökkä and öttiäinen, but with a bit more annoying tone latched on it and öttiäinen being cutesy word instead. I've never heard of Karelian language. Also, based on the usages for the word, it sounds like a word for (playful) verbal abuse. Like using "cockroach", "pig", "cow" etc. DateYutaka said: Ah, I see now. For a moment, I also thought that you've meant "Kenken", the numbers riddle game xDkanken is Kanji literacy test and if get to grade one you should be able to read anything from the very oldest stuff to today's stuff How old is the very oldest stuff and is that also the level you can read? Also, do you have trouble with the grammar/vocabulary of older texts? |
NoboruSep 21, 2019 5:39 AM
| "Gender binary" is nonsense, this change proves that even dictionaries can fall victim to political propaganda. |
| For me, its he or she. No more options except for rare cases as hermaphroditism. |
| All weebs creatures of the galaxy, hear this message. Those of you who listen will not be struck by western animation. You will no longer know hunger, nor pain. Your Anime have come to lead you now. Our strength shall serve as a luminous sun toward which all intelligence may blossom. And the impervious shelter beneath which you will prosper. However, for those who refuse our offer and cling to their western animation ways… For you, there will be great wrath. |
red-tomato said: so we're in an age where everything needs to revolve around the lgbt huh i mean they has been used as a neutral pronoun long before the non-binary gender movement came into fruition. now actual non-binary "pronouns" and words? probably won't make it into the dictionary. especially since you know, the infinite gender thing was invented in like, 2013 on tumblr or something. non-binary gender is just the emo phase of the 2010s. |
DateYutaka said: I see; so Japanese has more or less stayed quite conservative in the language itself. Japanese Kanji already feel like simplified simplified Chinese characters, lolthe oldest written Japanese is around I around 800 ce but spoken Japanese has never t reely change mius new words added as the world has evolved its just kanji has changed the words have and justr like Chinese but not the same exent was simpfied |
Noboru said: DateYutaka said: I see; so Japanese has more or less stayed quite conservative in the language itself. Japanese Kanji already feel like simplified simplified Chinese characters, lolthe oldest written Japanese is around I around 800 ce but spoken Japanese has never t reely change mius new words added as the world has evolved its just kanji has changed the words have and justr like Chinese but not the same exent was simpfied https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_language |
carseatheadrest said: please let this be truenon-binary gender is just the emo phase of the 2010s. |
| An admin's dickhead Soul banned me from MAL t('v't) |
Thanks for the link, mate, but the social manner is to ask and have others tell things from their point of view. DateYutaka said: Do you mean Old Japanese vs Modern Japanese compared to Traditional Chinese vs Simplified Chinese or do you mean Old/Modern Japanese vs Simplified Chinese?yes but modern Japanese is not as simplified Modern Chinese |
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