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Sep 17, 8:54 PM

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Get good with art/graphic design skills and put together a team of likeminded people to make one yourself. It can happen if people are determined enough to do it.
 
Sep 17, 10:17 PM

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alshu said:
Bourmegar said:

Cel animation cannot make things like Violet Evergarden

Yes it can.
Also KyoAni could put more effort and make it indistinguishable from cel animation only with digital tools.

Bourmegar said:
or a Shinkai Movie

- Do we need more of those?
- You can trace photos with non-digital tools but such project would go beyond Shinkai Budget.


Cel animation is too expensive and time consuming. Except for some short art projects there is no practical reason to bring it back.

Well can Cell animation hold a candle against these digital tools?

Ppl just want Cells back because of style, which is a weird reason because such styles can be replicated in Digital animation. Just look at MegaloBox for a good example.
I found Megalobox to be one of the best looking shows of 2018.
 
Sep 17, 10:30 PM

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Actually, we all know how good the characters design are in the past. But there's nothing "unique" about it, they all look the same. But to say today's characters designs are ugly is a stretch. You should only watch old shows then. I'd rather watch shows from 2000s til now, the story is much better and some look much better too.
The world is not beautiful. Therefore, it is.
 
Sep 17, 10:42 PM
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BenRyan said:
mhkr said:
That image is just a 90s generic style to me and you're blaming new anime don't have unique-ness. Even MAL users are tired of this "old vs new" threads

Son go back watching sponge bob lol don't fall for the capitalist agenda.

Zehennagel said:
"
or become president of your country, attack japan.

We simply have to create conditions in which it's more profitable to do cel or #boycott.
So you plan to use capitalism to fight capitalism... just amazing LMFAOOO
 
Sep 18, 12:07 AM

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Bourmegar said:
Well can Cell animation hold a candle against these digital tools?

There are different aspects of that.
- With cell animation you can achieve better stuff than one which digital tools are used for nowadays: like better than Violet Evergarden. I think you are not giving it enough credit.
- On the other hand with said digital tools you also can make way way better stuff than we see today.
They have great potential but are not used to their full extent.
For example in Violet Evergarden the animators could make the movements of the "camera" and the characters more natural (like in their other projects), not so robotic but...I guess KyoAni didn't had the time/money.

The "cell animation" people are actually nostalgic for the projects where artists had more time to refine and put a personal touch in their work...and of course there is some cherry picking going on.

Bourmegar said:
Ppl just want Cells back because of style, which is a weird reason because such styles can be replicated in Digital animation. Just look at MegaloBox for a good example.

- Yes it can.
- MegaloBox is not a good example tho.
It didn't looked right because the "replicating tricks" were cheap: just degrading the quality of some layers. It had the "old VHS copy" washed out effect.
There are more complex (and convincing) technics to make it look hand drawn.

Yes the OP has a really bizarre way to make his point - this is only a character design.
He could put an animated gif (from Robot Carnival or Manie-Manie: Meikyuu Monogatari for example) to demonstrate the animation.
Also I would pick Iria (MC in Iria: Zeiram) from the same period instead of Gally. (No sure why there are so many fans of Gunnm/Alita OVA.)
Modified by alshu, Sep 18, 12:16 AM
 
Sep 18, 12:22 AM

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LMAO never use MAL forms for discussions, It's full of trolls. Just reading few comments made me angry idk why you haven't snapped yet
 
Sep 18, 5:40 AM

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Not gonna lie, people saying cel is ugly and boring triggers me more than anything else in this fuckin community
 
Sep 19, 7:25 AM
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OP's image literally looks like the generic art we have today, just worse.
 
Sep 19, 8:22 AM
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I like how he posts the most basic bitch of all the 90s as an example
 
Sep 20, 8:32 PM

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Pay us artists more money lol
Art and animation is so much easier to create now. I hope we never go back. There are of course ways to stylize new animation to look like old cel animation.

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Sep 21, 1:54 AM

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We don't. I don't want it back since it would be replacing a superior product with an inferior one and the amount of anime produced per season would decrease due to the increased workload which would mean less variety. I'm sure the animators also don't want to go back to working 10 times harder for the same inadequate paycheck either since they're already overloaded as is.
Modified by Kruszer, Sep 21, 1:59 AM
"I am Holo the wisewolf, I know that there are things in this world that I do not know, that is what makes me wise."
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Sep 21, 2:27 AM

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When anime is not all about business, could we get cell animation back.
 
Sep 21, 6:16 AM

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I actually kinda want anime to move forward. Away from drawing first and into 100% digital. A lot of extra effort is wasted hand drawing stuff when it could just be all done in computers.

You still see older methods of animation in student projects. ^^; So it is still around.

Just. why do it that way when it is so much more expensive and so much more effort?Computers are here to help. Not the enemy.
The anime community in a nutshell.
 
Sep 21, 6:23 AM

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Iyya said:
When anime is not all about business, could we get cell animation back.

In the meanwhile, you can check indie authors, they exist. Expecting a main industry in entertainment to not be about business is futile.
 
Sep 21, 6:46 AM
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new animation looks way better in my opinion
 
Sep 21, 6:58 AM

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jal90 said:
Iyya said:
When anime is not all about business, could we get cell animation back.

In the meanwhile, you can check indie authors, they exist. Expecting a main industry in entertainment to not be about business is futile.


Yes. I actually am interested in indie animators than nowadays anime, so.

I am not expecting anime isn't all about business. OP asks and I answer his question. Simple as that.
 
Sep 21, 7:58 AM

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Iyya said:
When anime is not all about business, could we get cell animation back.


Anime Industry sucks this time
> this news is from today

JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5 Animation Director Claims He Hasn't Been Paid
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2019-09-19/jojo-bizarre-adventure-part-5-animation-director-claims-he-hasnt-been-paid/.151323
 
Sep 21, 8:26 AM

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like it or hate it, the industry moves forward and certain styles come and go

also saying how all modern animes look generic is just untrue, i would agree if you said there are more generic animes nowadays because there are simply more anime shows coming out, but it sure doesnt mean we get generic looking shows all the time, cause saying that probably means you havent done jack shit to see the good stuff.

I sometimes feel like people like older stuff they grew up watching purely for nostalgic reasons

it just seems like a classic rant of "modern anime looks worse than older anime" which at this point makes no sense cause literally any time period had bad and good looking stuff
Modified by yotamdin, Sep 21, 8:29 AM
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↑ Probably a shitpost ↑
 
Sep 21, 8:30 AM

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I dont think we should, old anime are known for their character designs so let them remain special, if cel animation was brought back I would probably not get that feel from old anime
 
Sep 21, 8:32 AM

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Catalano said:
cel is too much of a hassle, it takes too long, the cel deteriorates, come on! we evolved, berserk 2016 proves it.


Berserk 2016 is the epitome of animation.
 
Sep 21, 9:35 AM

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BenRyan said:
Iyya said:
When anime is not all about business, could we get cell animation back.


Anime Industry sucks this time
> this news is from today

JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5 Animation Director Claims He Hasn't Been Paid
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2019-09-19/jojo-bizarre-adventure-part-5-animation-director-claims-he-hasnt-been-paid/.151323


Yeah poor wages and abuses like this have always been this way. Things need to change and the Japanese government needs to step in.
 
Sep 23, 3:10 PM

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Heimur said:


Oh look another thread complaining about how old anime is superior to modern one.

And then the modern anime fans are the ones who are "wrong" despite the fact that this kind of BS is usually started for old anime fans.

It's tiresome seeing this crap over and over when the ones who start them never give a chance to new anime on first place but somehow believe they have a higher moral ground.

Look, i posted a image cherry picking too, that count as an argument somehow right?

Btw i have Joe on my favs before you want to play the card i always see old anime fans playing when are called out.


this would be more appropriate for the thread.


We should appreciate M.Yuasa really
Cel shading is good too when combined with traditional animation, unfortunately not many animated features use it. Eg here




 
Sep 23, 10:41 PM

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how about don't bring it back cuz it can be expensive and time-consuming?
i'm sure you can just replicate the cel-shading style with digital animation anyway
 
Sep 23, 10:46 PM

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Fario-P said:
how about don't bring it back cuz it can be expensive and time-consuming?
i'm sure you can just replicate the cel-shading style with digital animation anyway

Then why hasn't anyone replicated the style successfully?

Don't get me wrong, I do think bringing back cels is not practical unless it's for a personal passion project, but you'd think they'd have figured out how to make digital animation look and move exactly like cels by now. The attempts I've seen like Megalobox and the 2017 Mahoujin Guru Guru were not very convincing. I want to see it but it still hasn't happened.
Modified by HeruruMeruru, Sep 24, 4:15 AM
 
Sep 24, 4:08 AM

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petran79 said:
Heimur said:


Oh look another thread complaining about how old anime is superior to modern one.

And then the modern anime fans are the ones who are "wrong" despite the fact that this kind of BS is usually started for old anime fans.

It's tiresome seeing this crap over and over when the ones who start them never give a chance to new anime on first place but somehow believe they have a higher moral ground.

Look, i posted a image cherry picking too, that count as an argument somehow right?

Btw i have Joe on my favs before you want to play the card i always see old anime fans playing when are called out.


this would be more appropriate for the thread.


We should appreciate M.Yuasa really
Cel shading is good too when combined with traditional animation, unfortunately not many animated features use it. Eg here





Sorry but even the picture you posted is wrong.

It compares 80s/90s OVAS and Movies to regular TV shows.
OVAs have a bigger Budget And more time compared to a regular tv show.
It could have been a whole different story if it compared old OVAs and Movies to newer Movies and OVAs.
Old OVAs would then still be better because most of the new OVAs are just Bonus material whereas Old ones stand on their own like Gunbuster (a case where details only make Noriko sexier, I mean that shade under her chest and the stretches you see on her shirt makes her chest look bigger).

And yh we should appreciate MASTER Yuasa and other Visionaries Like Our lord Miyazaki.
But sadly, most cannot go all out thanks to the greed of others......
 
Sep 24, 4:50 AM

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Bourmegar said:

Sorry but even the picture you posted is wrong.

It compares 80s/90s OVAS and Movies to regular TV shows.
OVAs have a bigger Budget And more time compared to a regular tv show.
It could have been a whole different story if it compared old OVAs and Movies to newer Movies and OVAs.
Old OVAs would then still be better because most of the new OVAs are just Bonus material whereas Old ones stand on their own like Gunbuster (a case where details only make Noriko sexier, I mean that shade under her chest and the stretches you see on her shirt makes her chest look bigger).

And yh we should appreciate MASTER Yuasa and other Visionaries Like Our lord Miyazaki.
But sadly, most cannot go all out thanks to the greed of others......


Yes, I dont see much difference in quality between newer ova and TV series tbh. It is almost extinct. Probably because majority of anime nowadays is released on TV too. Now only difference is between movies and TV series and only from certain studios. In the digital production and distribution era, process has been streamlined more or less
 
Sep 24, 5:51 PM

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HeruruMeruru said:
Fario-P said:
how about don't bring it back cuz it can be expensive and time-consuming?
i'm sure you can just replicate the cel-shading style with digital animation anyway

Then why hasn't anyone replicated the style successfully?

Don't get me wrong, I do think bringing back cels is not practical unless it's for a personal passion project, but you'd think they'd have figured out how to make digital animation look and move exactly like cels by now. The attempts I've seen like Megalobox and the 2017 Mahoujin Guru Guru were not very convincing. I want to see it but it still hasn't happened.

idk tbh, that is a question for the ages
maybe the anime industry thinks that people don't like that kind of style anymore
 
Oct 1, 1:53 PM
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to



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to



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to



Looks like a progress to me.
 
Oct 1, 3:17 PM

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Psajdak said:


to



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to



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to



Looks like a progress to me.
I'ma need sauce on those first two images. ;)
Don't bother if you don't know how special effects were done without computers.

 
Oct 1, 3:23 PM

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ShadowMonkey said:
Not gonna lie, people saying cel is ugly and boring triggers me more than anything else in this fuckin community
It's just new anime fans/casuals who say that tbh. To not truly appreciate cel animation otherwise there's something wrong wichu.
 
Oct 1, 3:28 PM

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@Psajdak

Hey good job purposely picking obscure cel animation pics. Why don't you bring these up instead?

 
Oct 1, 3:28 PM

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Psajdak said:


to



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to



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to



Looks like a progress to me.
How in the heck is that progress mang
 
Oct 1, 3:31 PM

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Oct 1, 3:47 PM

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Listen, I love cel animation, I prefer retro styled animation and all but realistically, it's not feasible. It comes at the cost of extra material price, takes some physical storage space and is inflammable (a concern which has grown even more stronger with the fire destroying Kyoto Animation's headquarters). If you choose it over digital animation, the price of production of final workpiece will raise, the planning time will be constraining than if you do everything with a more practical computer and it will have an impact on the benefits you must generate to stay afloat. Maybe it can work if you take high risks, and market your studio as luxury blockbuster product maker, which are taken care of with utmost attention. Even so, I doubt there is a solid enough market to sustain a niche approach like this... We, vintage style aficionados, are a dying breed.

On the other hand, I wish there was a blend of the two, digital and cel. There was interesting attempts around it in the 2000s, but the potential wasn't pushed at the maximum. And CGIs are still crap when it comes to render Background Art. While it's debatable that retro chara-design is superior, Background Art and Art Direction as a whole absolutely was. It's sad to see ugly 3D models to render things as landscape, buildings or vehicles.
Other than that, I think CGIs are great to render visual effects like sparks, dust particles, cold metal texture...
 
Oct 1, 4:04 PM
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Klad said:
@Psajdak

Hey good job purposely picking obscure cel animation pics. Why don't you bring these up instead?

Pictures that I linked are how average anime looked at the time - well, old school Hyakkimaru being an exception - that isn't screenshot.

What you linked are movie/OVA screenshots.

Also, it's not like I meant that old looks worse by that "progress" part, just that anime visually evolves in, for most part, good direction, and there is no need to go back to old techniques, when current technology can allow for such nice visuals.
 
Oct 1, 4:09 PM

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Psajdak said:
Klad said:
@Psajdak

Hey good job purposely picking obscure cel animation pics. Why don't you bring these up instead?

Pictures that I linked are how average anime looked at the time - well, old school Hyakkimaru being an exception - that isn't screenshot.

What you linked are movie/OVA screenshots.

Also, it's not like I meant that old looks worse by that "progress" part, just that anime visually evolves in, for most part, good direction, and there is no need to go back to old techniques, when current technology can allow for such nice visuals.
No, you purposely handpicked bad animated old anime. I'm not saying that every cel animation is instant great every time. But cel at its highest budget >>>.

Hell, why don't you link how bad average anime look these days? Go watch a couple of Black Clover or One Piece episodes and you'll see lol/

Also Ashita no Joe isn't a movie or OVA bro.
 
Oct 1, 4:15 PM
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Klad said:
No, you purposely handpicked bad animated old anime.
Whatever, you are free to believe what you want.
 
Oct 1, 4:35 PM
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to everyone who say modern anime character design is generic, i'm sorry but do i need glasses?








 
Oct 2, 12:47 AM

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AlphaN00b said:
to everyone who say modern anime character design is generic, i'm sorry but do i need glasses?

Bad examples tho.

Kill la Kill - 2013 also Sushio is a veteran designer. He has older designs that look like that.
Redline - 2009 and was developed for 7 years
JoJo - the concept design is from 1986
Yojouhan Shinwa Taikei - 2010 (the screencap could be from the movie but still same design)
Haikyuu - 2014, looks like shit and it's pretty generic. Kind of counterexample.
Kaiji - the concept design is from 1996

So you got One Punch Man (the redesign of the manga), Kakegurui (which looks like shit) and Prison School (ewww).


Not the I am against your statement, modern anime is pretty diverse as styles (the opposite of generic) but your examples are not showing that.
Modified by alshu, Oct 2, 12:51 AM
 
Oct 5, 7:44 AM

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Cel animation takes too long, costs too much, and adds a great deal of work to Japanese animators who're severely underpaid as it is. (Reference) The fact is: With the rise of digital animation and 3d animation, the animators' jobs have gotten easier.

Modern animation techniques have allowed them to more content, more often. And that's win-win for everyone; we get more shows to watch with fewer recycled scenes and they generate revenue faster.

I understand that there's a certain appeal to cel animation and old school art styles, but it simply not practical anymore. Perhaps, hopefully, an anime filmmaker might come along someday with a passion project that he wants to make entirely with cel animation. But until then, it ain't happening.
Ya boy is going to Con+Alt+Delete 2019 in Chicago! See you there!


 
Oct 5, 8:59 PM
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Let's bring back the type of hand-drawn animation they used for silent cartoons!
 
Oct 5, 9:36 PM

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I don't think it's feasible to bring back cel animation except as a personal passion project, but I do think by now there should be a way to make digital animation that looks indistinguishable from cels. You can have neural networks do inbetween frames but you can't give digital drawings the same texture as ink and paint?
 
Oct 5, 10:35 PM

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Yep, I agree, newer digitally made Anime is not an "Archival/Artistic quality" "You pump You watch and dump.
 
Oct 5, 10:41 PM
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new anime is so bad, not unique and trash, bla bla bla, yeah sure, go away you 90s boomer.
 
Oct 7, 6:50 PM
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Anime production is a business, not a hobby. Cel-Animation is more expensive and time consuming than modern digital methods. No producer of anime will use a more expensive method to generate the same amount of revenue. The only way that anime producers would ever go back to cel-animation is if it would result in greater profits than digital-animation generates. In other words, the increase in revenues would have to be greater than the increase in costs to justify switching back to cels. This would only be possible if there were a dramatic spike in demand for cels. The question then becomes: how do you convince the consumers of anime to pay higher prices for anime?
 
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