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#1
Sep 15, 10:40 AM

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It seem that modern anime lost all its style and unique-ness? characters look so generic these days.


 
#2
Sep 15, 10:48 AM

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We don't.

And the image you've shown is not any more captivating than stuff we see today. I'd say it's even less captivating to my eyes.
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#3
Sep 15, 10:54 AM

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cel is too much of a hassle, it takes too long, the cel deteriorates, come on! we evolved, berserk 2016 proves it.
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#4
Sep 15, 1:06 PM

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That image is just a 90s generic style to me and you're blaming new anime don't have unique-ness. Even MAL users are tired of this "old vs new" threads
 
#5
Sep 15, 1:23 PM
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That's just untrue. There's plenty of unique character designs in modern anime.

People who worked on old anime also work on modern anime too funnily enough. An example being the character designer Mikimoto Haruhiko. He did the character design for Macross and also a modern anime, Kabaneri of the iron fortress. Are those designs generic now because they're in a modern anime and not an old one?
 
#6
Sep 15, 1:33 PM
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1st thing :No. Cell animation can't comeback. Too expensive, too cubersome to be used, needs large storage, very heavy and deteriorates fast.

2nd thing: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OnlySixFaces

This has been happening for years. Stuff like this has been in anime since its inception. Reusing character design is reusing character design whether it is in the 80s or 2000s.
Modified by AbrahamOmosun, Sep 15, 1:48 PM
 
#7
Sep 15, 1:39 PM

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Animation/coloring techniques have nothing to do with character designs to begin with... they're two different things.

And cel animation won't come back. As long as capitalism rules the world, that won't be possible. It's just the way it is...
 
#8
Sep 15, 1:47 PM

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"how do we get cell animation back"
go to university, take animation as a subject, take also japanese, work hard as fuck during 3 years then go to japan and get a job. eventually, become more and more known and skilled so a studio entrusts you as director of an anime, and make it so it's cell animated.

that is how you can take it back.

or become president of your country, attack japan, beat them and force them to make cell animated animes.

now that sounds nonsensical doesn't it? well it's way more likely to happen that way than by making some threads complaining about it on an anime website. you're welcome.
no harsh feelings.
 
#9
Sep 15, 1:53 PM

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The problem isn't the animation the problem are the lazy artists who copy-paste character design from other anime instead of creating something unique.
Cel-Animation isn't going to comeback anytime soon cause M.O.N.E.Y.

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Sep 15, 2:08 PM

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mhkr said:
That image is just a 90s generic style to me and you're blaming new anime don't have unique-ness. Even MAL users are tired of this "old vs new" threads

Son go back watching sponge bob lol don't fall for the capitalist agenda.

Zehennagel said:
"
or become president of your country, attack japan.

We simply have to create conditions in which it's more profitable to do cel or #boycott.
 
Sep 15, 2:28 PM

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Don't listen to anyone who says it can't or it couldn't be done. It very much could be done, as anything physically possible by human hands in the most literal sense could be done, but the point is because of greed it very likely won't in the foreseeable future. I don't buy all the arguments about expense, because most of those are just veiled arguments for justifying maximization of profit margins at the expense of quality. Anything that could be afforded back then could be afforded now. The problem is certain industries, including animation, have gotten an ingrained mentality of auto-selecting the cheapest, fastest route.
 
Sep 15, 2:49 PM
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WatchTillTandava said:
Don't listen to anyone who says it can't or it couldn't be done. It very much could be done, as anything physically possible by human hands in the most literal sense could be done, but the point is because of greed it very likely won't in the foreseeable future. I don't buy all the arguments about expense, because most of those are just veiled arguments for justifying maximization of profit margins at the expense of quality. Anything that could be afforded back then could be afforded now. The problem is certain industries, including animation, have gotten an ingrained mentality of auto-selecting the cheapest, fastest route.


I don't think anyone saying that it couldn't be done is literally saying it's physically impossible. Of course it could be done. The technology exists. But will it be done? No. I know you disregard the reason regarding finances saying that it's this evil greedy excuse, but animation is a business like any other. A studio will not opt for a more expensive method of animation if they don't think it will provide a benefit that covers that expense. Especially when more and more newer and younger anime fans prefer the newer styles of animation. This isn't the first time in history an older animation of filming style is discarded for newer, cheaper one that also gets the job done and it won't be the last.
 
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adams215 said:
WatchTillTandava said:
Don't listen to anyone who says it can't or it couldn't be done. It very much could be done, as anything physically possible by human hands in the most literal sense could be done, but the point is because of greed it very likely won't in the foreseeable future. I don't buy all the arguments about expense, because most of those are just veiled arguments for justifying maximization of profit margins at the expense of quality. Anything that could be afforded back then could be afforded now. The problem is certain industries, including animation, have gotten an ingrained mentality of auto-selecting the cheapest, fastest route.


I don't think anyone saying that it couldn't be done is literally saying it's physically impossible. Of course it could be done. The technology exists. But will it be done? No. I know you disregard the reason regarding finances saying that it's this evil greedy excuse, but animation is a business like any other. A studio will not opt for a more expensive method of animation if they don't think it will provide a benefit that covers that expense. Especially when more and more newer and younger anime fans prefer the newer styles of animation. This isn't the first time in history an older animation of filming style is discarded for newer, cheaper one that also gets the job done and it won't be the last.


Nothing either of us has said is really mutually exclusive. I acknowledged the reason why it very likely wouldn't be done (versus couldn't). Whether the rationale behind it is couched in language to make it sound nicer and more reasonable or demonized, it ultimately amounts to the same thing: The greed of businesses. Animation is no exception and there's nothing uniquely nefarious about it. I'm just pointing out the fact and stating I definitely wish it wasn't this way. It's a problem with most private industry constantly decreasing quality and raising prices and then justifying it by claiming to need to make a profit, when a profit could very well still be made the other way; just not as gratuitous of one.
 
Sep 15, 3:04 PM

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We should bring back zoetropes.

Also OP, what is this fuss about not having watched the OVA you use as an example? I wanted to take you seriously :(
 
Sep 15, 3:07 PM

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Why bring back something that is inherently inferior and more of a burden on those animating? Talk about being selfish!

Let's go back to carving letters into stone tablets while we're at it.
 
Sep 15, 3:07 PM

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inb4 this thread devolves into another "old" vs "new" anime again as OP intended.

Stay Strong, KyoAni.
 
 
Sep 15, 3:16 PM
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err computers unlimited undo button that saves a lot of resources alone will not bring it back

but computer effects can copy the look of cel animation if they wanted to just look at Megalo Box anime its not perfect copy of cel colors but its a start
 
Sep 15, 3:17 PM

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BenRyan said:

Son go back watching sponge bob lol don't fall for the capitalist agenda.
OK daddy I assume Gunnm hasn't a generic 90s style
 
Sep 15, 3:17 PM

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As far as I can tel, cel animation is based on technology that just doesn't exist anymore in terms of anyone working with it in the industry. (Not to say that there aren't plenty of people still in the industry who've worked extensively in it. )

I don't think it's necessarily about bringing it back, but why don't studios try to mimic the aesthetic in other ways which seems like it should be possible. And maybe some have.

I think the look goes beyond character design to be honest.

mhkr said:
That image is just a 90s generic style to me and you're blaming new anime don't have unique-ness.

The irony.
Modified by syncrogazer, Sep 15, 4:06 PM
 
Sep 15, 3:26 PM

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can't believe you honestly think gunm didn't have the same style as every other scifi flavor of the decade
 
Sep 15, 3:32 PM

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I wonder if it's possible to make digital animation that looks EXACTLY like cels? All the attempts thus far have been kinda shitty... In fact I think the closest I've seen to digital animation looking like cels is actually some stuff from the early 2000s or even late 90s...
Modified by HeruruMeruru, Sep 15, 3:51 PM
 
Sep 15, 3:40 PM

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We don't cuz people have found more cost and resource-effective methods, ones that can't get lost or destroyed as easily. Sure, I love a good cel aesthetic, and modern anime often isn't as detailed as ones drawn on paper and pencil or on cels, but it's quicker, less intensive, and not as easy to irreversibly tamper with.
"Anti-elitists" are the true elitists of this community. They're the kind of people that remind me that the elitist stereotype they perpetuate basically doesn't exist, and those who use it to scapegoat embody practically every trait they put into the stereotype, as they sit in their ivory tower looking down at and attacking people they disagree with because they're being negative on a show they like, and their favorites list is comprised of at least one non-mainstream classic, all the while cowering at the idea of those people giving them a taste of their own medicine. Also, objectivity in art is relative, therefore arguable, not nonexistent.
 
Sep 15, 3:42 PM

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Not going to happen. From what I've heard it's a much more costly process than what's currently being used.

You're only choice is to stick to older anime if you miss cel animation so much. Not trying to be a dick or anything,just saying.

I get the same way with western animation and music sometimes, so I get the feeling .
 
Sep 15, 3:43 PM
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BenRyan said:


It seem that modern anime lost all its style and unique-ness? characters look so generic these days.


What do you mean generic? There are a lot of different character design styles. For example: Mob Psycho, Ping Pong, Mushishi, Vinland Saga, etc.
 
Sep 15, 4:07 PM
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HeruruMeruru said:
I wonder if it's possible to make digital animation that looks EXACTLY like cels? All the attempts thus far have been kinda shitty... In fact I think the closest I've seen to digital animation looking like cels is actually some stuff from the early 2000s or even late 90s...


baby steps to fully achieve that exactness look

in the broader scale there is a motivation to merge 2D and 3D like with the recent grease pencil tool by Blender https://www.cartoonbrew.com/tech/blenders-amazing-2d-3d-grease-pencil-tool-is-now-available-and-completely-free-167266.html

and i bet you heard the 2D/3D hybrid short film "Paperman" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paperman#Animation
 
Sep 15, 4:21 PM

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Oh look another thread complaining about how old anime is superior to modern one.

And then the modern anime fans are the ones who are "wrong" despite the fact that this kind of BS is usually started for old anime fans.

It's tiresome seeing this crap over and over when the ones who start them never give a chance to new anime on first place but somehow believe they have a higher moral ground.

Look, i posted a image cherry picking too, that count as an argument somehow right?

Btw i have Joe on my favs before you want to play the card i always see old anime fans playing when are called out.

Mod edit: removed NSFM image
Modified by Brandon, Oct 10, 7:30 AM

 
Sep 16, 5:35 AM

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That's not going to happen. The studios would be perfectly capable of returning to cel animation if they still had the equipment needed for it and if they didn't have to animate more series each new year. The latter would be easy to do if they limited the amount of projects they took on but in case of the former I'm not even sure if they still make the equipment.

Ferien said:
Animation/coloring techniques have nothing to do with character designs to begin with... they're two different things.


Yes and no. It's true that character designs are not part of the animation itself but they do have influence because the simpler the design the easier it is to design. The designs CLAMP use for their manga often get simplified a lot because they are way too intricate to animate without going crushing their budget or not meeting their deadlines.
 
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When Japanese start animating their anime again, not use Koreans.

Also many newer animators in the industry lack the ability and talent needed to go back. Cels are dead forever, and it's better this way.

yastin said:
BenRyan said:


It seem that modern anime lost all its style and unique-ness? characters look so generic these days.


What do you mean generic? There are a lot of different character design styles. For example: Mob Psycho, Ping Pong, Mushishi, Vinland Saga, etc.

But they all look ugly to my eyes. Just because unique doesn't mean it is good.

Btw next stop is gonna be full CGI bby!!!!

Heimur said:


Oh look another thread complaining about how old anime is superior to modern one.

And then the modern anime fans are the ones who are "wrong" despite the fact that this kind of BS is usually started for old anime fans.

It's tiresome seeing this crap over and over when the ones who start them never give a chance to new anime on first place but somehow believe they have a higher moral ground.

Look, i posted a image cherry picking too, that count as an argument somehow right?

Btw i have Joe on my favs before you want to play the card i always see old anime fans playing when are called out.

However you look at it, I prefer anime then. Anime now looks very boring, lifeless, and edgy, wow.
Modified by Ranpyone, Sep 16, 7:17 AM
 
Sep 16, 8:02 AM
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WatchTillTandava said:

Nothing either of us has said is really mutually exclusive. I acknowledged the reason why it very likely wouldn't be done (versus couldn't). Whether the rationale behind it is couched in language to make it sound nicer and more reasonable or demonized, it ultimately amounts to the same thing: The greed of businesses. Animation is no exception and there's nothing uniquely nefarious about it. I'm just pointing out the fact and stating I definitely wish it wasn't this way. It's a problem with most private industry constantly decreasing quality and raising prices and then justifying it by claiming to need to make a profit, when a profit could very well still be made the other way; just not as gratuitous of one.


First off businesses objective isn't just to make profit, it is also to maximize said profit. And unlike what most people like to say it's not inherently more evil or greedier than anything else. Nobody likes to put more effort than needed into something especially when it would end up causing them more time and ressources regardless of the subject. And as for the quality subject, that is nothing more than a subjective stance on your part since like any other thread on this subject has proven there is another actually larger crowd out there that would argue the opposite.
And lastly I myself quite love cel animation but everytime we hear news on how fewer and fewer animators enter the industry and how worked to the bone those in it are, why impose on them an outdated method that will just put even more pressure on them?
 
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BenRyan said:
mhkr said:
That image is just a 90s generic style to me and you're blaming new anime don't have unique-ness. Even MAL users are tired of this "old vs new" threads

Son go back watching sponge bob lol don't fall for the capitalist agenda.

Zehennagel said:
"
or become president of your country, attack japan.

We simply have to create conditions in which it's more profitable to do cel or #boycott.
boycott won't get you anywhere. and it wouldn't be enough people anyway. also don't say "we" not everybody has your desires to bring it back.
 
Sep 16, 10:18 AM

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JoyBoy_316 said:
First off businesses objective isn't just to make profit, it is also to maximize said profit.


Right, and that is the very essence of the problem in the first place, as I pointed out above in the quoted post. Just because something is the objective of someone doesn't mean anyone else has to agree with it or consider it a good thing.

JoyBoy_316 said:
And unlike what most people like to say it's not inherently more evil or greedier than anything else.


No one said anything about "evil". I don't believe in evil, which is a whole other philosophical debate for another thread. It is greedy though, pretty much by definition.

JoyBoy_316 said:
Nobody likes to put more effort than needed into something especially when it would end up causing them more time and ressources regardless of the subject.


Some people certainly do, but clearly not enough to make a difference where it counts in the respective industries at present.

JoyBoy_316 said:
And as for the quality subject, that is nothing more than a subjective stance on your part since like any other thread on this subject has proven there is another actually larger crowd out there that would argue the opposite.


Of course it's a subjective stance. Practically everything outside of mathematical equations is a "subjective stance". I never stated anything to the contrary. I'm not sure why people feel the need to point this out? It's an opinion like anything else, and in my view, quite a valid one.

JoyBoy_316 said:
And lastly I myself quite love cel animation but everytime we hear news on how fewer and fewer animators enter the industry and how worked to the bone those in it are, why impose on them an outdated method that will just put even more pressure on them?


Because I'd rather have much fewer animes of much higher quality, which to me equates in a part to a return to form in the form of cel animation. I don't recognize the legitimacy whatsoever of the term "outdated". "Outdated" is a false mentality. Nothing about something being older makes it worse and anything that was done in the past can be done again, so it would be "current dated". Languages have been revived after thousands of years. Anything old can simply be made new again. The only area where the term outdated may even begin to apply is when there is a clearly worse method of doing something that effectively is universally despised and not a single person sees the value in. Nothing in subjective art meets any such standard.
 
Sep 16, 10:28 AM

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I don't mind, but I totally won't mind. Okay, I will mind if it's something I've already seen in the newer style. I don't love the animation changing all of a sudden. Yeah, not even from cel animation to whatever it's called today, I'm horrible at this (Needed to use google to understand what is a cel-animation, though I had my guess).


 
Sep 16, 10:53 AM

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Simple: it won't.
An alternative? Produce one yourself (and by produce, I mean "make").


@BenRyan Unless you also include the paints colour, I'm guessing from this example that what you are actually rtalking about is charadesign, nothing to do with drawing on cellulo or not.
Also, I would like to point out the fact that, no matter what certain misinformed people here have written, Nobuteru Yuki's style is absolutely not representative of the 90s (or 80s or whatever). Plus, the guy is notorious for going against his duty as a charadesigner: for Gunnm here, for the Lodoss OAVs, etc he actually made his designs more complex than the original ones, thus limiting the ability to simulate smooth movement and making it harder for the animators to reproduce his characters.

@mhkr If Yuki's style was the basis for the 90s, the production would have sink very fast.

@ fancyjasper Mikimoto was not the charadesigner on Kabaneri, it's easy to see his base designs weres "reworked" by someone else. Of course, its style has evolved over time, but "Do you remember Love?" features drawings of characters far closer to his art in this period than Kabaneri's episodes are to the sheets he made for it.

@HyperL I am sorry for your eyes.
HyperL said:

And I'm sorry for your attitude, sir.

Nice one ! (I was joking because it's rather funny to respond so negatively to something made with details when companies were throwing lots of money at studios, like in the OAVs golden era, while supporting some current TV shows that don't look any better made than TV shows from back then).
Modified by Rei_III, Sep 17, 2:41 AM
 
Sep 16, 10:54 AM
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WatchTillTandava said:

No one said anything about "evil". I don't believe in evil, which is a whole other philosophical debate for another thread. It is greedy though, pretty much by definition.


Well I guess we won't agree on this one since as someone who studies business and economics in general as long as there isn't a fall in the product's quality (which you can't prove there is) I cannot just call that entire process something as simple as greed. Reducing costs and times of production might help maximize profit but just summarizing it at that when it makes the employees job easier and allow the custumers to enjoy a larger amount and range of the product.



WatchTillTandava said:
Of course it's a subjective stance. Practically everything outside of mathematical equations is a "subjective stance". I never stated anything to the contrary. I'm not sure why people feel the need to point this out? It's an opinion like anything else, and in my view, quite a valid one.


Well next time just avoid adding phrase like "industries constantly decrease quality and raise prices" to your statement then there won't be any confusion

WatchTillTandava said:

Because I'd rather have much fewer animes of much higher quality, which to me equates in a part to a return to form in the form of cel animation. I don't recognize the legitimacy whatsoever of the term "outdated". "Outdated" is a false mentality. Nothing about something being older makes it worse and anything that was done in the past can be done again, so it would be "current dated". Languages have been revived after thousands of years. Anything old can simply be made new again. The only area where the term outdated may even begin to apply is when there is a clearly worse method of doing something that effectively is universally despised and not a single person sees the value in. Nothing in subjective art meets any such standard.


Of course it being outdated has nothing to do with it being old. It's outdated because there is a new way that's cheaper, easier and much faster to do. VHS and first gen celllphone aren't outdated because they're old but because there are better versions of these products.
Modified by JoyBoy_316, Sep 16, 10:59 AM
 
Sep 16, 11:00 AM

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is this a male gender issure...human issue...mental illness perhaps?
 
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Rei_III said:


@HyperL I am sorry for your eyes.


And I'm sorry for your attitude, sir.
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Sep 16, 12:41 PM

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I like cel animation but we have to wait until we can overthrow capitalism.
 
Sep 16, 2:13 PM

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WatchTillTandava said:
Don't listen to anyone who says it can't or it couldn't be done. It very much could be done, as anything physically possible by human hands in the most literal sense could be done, but the point is because of greed it very likely won't in the foreseeable future. I don't buy all the arguments about expense, because most of those are just veiled arguments for justifying maximization of profit margins at the expense of quality. Anything that could be afforded back then could be afforded now. The problem is certain industries, including animation, have gotten an ingrained mentality of auto-selecting the cheapest, fastest route.

Well said there also i don't dislike digital animation but I prefer cel animation.
 
Sep 16, 9:39 PM

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Raising funds seems like the solution, but it's hardly enough with cel already fading into scarcity. Ghibli can't raise enough money to make more cel-animated movies anymore, even if Disney willingly became their sponsor, partner, whatever.

I can only hope that a really good anime with serious plot and quality animation like Mobile Suit Gundam: The Origin and Vinland Saga will be made. But even good modern anime like those, which aren't battle shounen or based on light novels, are hard to come by. Investors run the show now and so far, they only want to lots of spend money on the production of Saturday morning cartoons with mediocre frame rates even though studios are able to object to making the same anime over and over again for kids in mind like Naruto or Pokemon: Sun and Moon.

Nobody would listen to the studios that want to dedicate themselves to make anime with serious plot plus top-notch animation that more mature viewers want to see, heck! we grown-ups even want to hear better background music in future anime. Us grown-ups have gotten real tired of seeing the same kiddy s**t over and over again in anime about a typical shounen or isekai protagonist and his exploits.
Modified by Kurt_Irving, Sep 16, 9:43 PM
 
Sep 16, 9:45 PM

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Heimur said:


Oh look another thread complaining about how old anime is superior to modern one.

And then the modern anime fans are the ones who are "wrong" despite the fact that this kind of BS is usually started for old anime fans.

It's tiresome seeing this crap over and over when the ones who start them never give a chance to new anime on first place but somehow believe they have a higher moral ground.

Look, i posted a image cherry picking too, that count as an argument somehow right?

Btw i have Joe on my favs before you want to play the card i always see old anime fans playing when are called out.


This. Old anime fan always antagonize and hostile towards modern anime but you almost never seen the other way around.
 
Sep 16, 10:07 PM

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Any errors in Digital Animation can redo much easier than Cel Animation. The current Animation Courses in Japanese School focus much more on Digital Animation.
 
Sep 17, 1:44 AM

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BenRyan said:


It seem that modern anime lost all its style and unique-ness? characters look so generic these days.



How do you bring back cel animation?

1. Import a bunch of Mexicans,Chinese and other immigrants who are desperate,mostly uneducated and don't mind sharing an apartment with a dozen other people to Japan who will work long grueling hours for extremely low pay.

or

2. Unpaid or extremely low pay internships.

or

3. Jack up the price of anime DVDs and blurays and anime merchandise enough to cover the costs of hiring Japanese people at a full wage to do cel animation.
 
Sep 17, 2:15 AM

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All you need is a large amount of money, whether from one incredibly wealthy person or a large number of ordinary people, that will buy cel animation but not digital animation. Despite cel animation not actually looking better. (Don't confuse it with changes in character design style, or the budgets of Japan's economic boom years.)
 
Sep 17, 3:18 AM

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Well it can come back really.

But just because it can doesn't mean that it should. It can in the form of passion projects and etc but not as the norm.
The thing is just that Digital has more potential than Cel Animation has.
Cel animation cannot make things like Violet Evergarden or a Shinkai Movie.

The real problem however is indeed Greed but nobody here seems to mention cynicism.
The cynical attitude of creators like "It is an adaptation/has (insert trope) so ppl will pay for it anyway" and Greed severely hampers the full potential of digital animation.
All because "time is Money" and thus teams being put in unhealthy work enviroments in order to makesure that the Anime is made quickly.
A good work enviroment allows the makers to pour all their passion into the show regardless of budget just Like S1 OPM.
This greed however was also already there before the jump towards Digital.

And then there is the fact that there are more investors, producers and etc etc etc and they want Anime thus more Animes are being made.

And this coming from someone who likes the styke of older Cel animated series.
 
Sep 17, 3:43 AM

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Bourmegar said:

Cel animation cannot make things like Violet Evergarden

Yes it can.
Also KyoAni could put more effort and make it indistinguishable from cel animation only with digital tools.

Bourmegar said:
or a Shinkai Movie

- Do we need more of those?
- You can trace photos with non-digital tools but such project would go beyond Shinkai Budget.


Cel animation is too expensive and time consuming. Except for some short art projects there is no practical reason to bring it back.
Modified by alshu, Sep 17, 3:55 AM
 
Sep 17, 4:11 AM
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We don't. You'll have to make to with the hundreds and hundreds of anime made before the year 2000.

Aesthetic value can be recognized or experienced, but it cannot be conveyed to those who are incapable of grasping its sensations and perceptions. To quarrel on its behalf is always a blunder.
 
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Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 1315
It's never coming back, I make do with a French City Hunter film I just found and I will hope the new City Hunter Manga gets an anime release, it must do sometime.

Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Sep 17, 5:05 AM

Offline
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 480
How do we bring back cel animation?

Turn all humanity into stone.
Wake up 3700 years later.
Rediscover all technology.
Reinvent cel animation.
 
Sep 17, 5:14 AM
Lazy

Offline
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3159
We didn't have Non Non Biyori back when cel animation was big so we don't need it back. Also, the example pic you used looks very generic to me, undermining your point.
 
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