| or y'know...the same idea is getting rehashed a bajillion times. Like the master servent thing worked wonders in Zero/Stay Night, but when you have cases like Apocrypha with like more master-servants than you can count, it gets a tad bit repetitive Also Lord El-Melloi I feel like it's one of those series where it would be much more enjoyable to watch if you have knowledge on the lore of the universe |
 'On-Hold' is another way for a completionist to say 'Dropped' |
| To the core, Fate is an action fantasy. A very good one. I think most of the people watching anime here will check out ubw zero and then heaven feel. For the spin-off, of course the target audience will be those who have seen the original. I enjoy emiya-san anime and will do so with Lord El-Melloi too |
| The world is not beautiful. Therefore, it is. |
| >The problem with the fate franchise >doesn't have target audience bruh FGOfags are true to their waifu. Even will not eat for a week to get dem thicc thighs waifu... btw another (((Alter Saber))) ez profit... |
HopefulNihilist said: johnbradshaw said: To the core, Fate is an action fantasy. A very good one. I think most of the people watching anime here will check out ubw zero and then heaven feel. For the spin-off, of course the target audience will be those who have seen the original. I enjoy emiya-san anime and will do so with Lord El-Melloi too But that's the thing with the spin offs: they won't necessarily appeal to those who watched Stay Night and Zero, because those series are action, while Emiya-san anime is a slice of life. That's not necessarily a problem because that how spin-off works. Not like it's canon or anything. Spin-off take your characters and put them in different settings. Its target is to those who loves Fate characters and want to see them again. Not to those who love action fantasy alone |
| The world is not beautiful. Therefore, it is. |
| That's probably what Type-Moon is going for, they don't wanna box themselves into any one genre and will therefore try to spread their influence as far as possible for maximum exposure. |
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
| You might be onto something. Anything besides Fate/Zero is pretty much trash. (UBW is passable though). fate apocrypha made me give up on anything further entries in the series. |
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JFuji said: Try the Heaven's Feel movies, Urobuchi based most of Fate/Zero on that route of the visual novelYou might be onto something. Anything besides Fate/Zero is pretty much trash. (UBW is passable though). fate apocrypha made me give up on anything further entries in the series. |
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
| I like the mainline Fate series, the minor stuff can go to hell. |
| Life Is Short But Intense. |
| I think other than mainline Fate series, others just for promote their games and merchandise. Some still cater to mainline series fans ( like the ubw,heaven feel movies and lord el-melloi) or to introduce the main storyline to the new audience. It's not that they don't have clear target audience. They clearly know what they are doing. It's more like they wanna expand it to more people for obvious reason.. to sell their stuffs .. that sweet money.. |
| You realize fate is one of most popular franchises out there? I don't think they ever have to worry about the target audience, since generally anything fate/nasu verse related sells like hotcakes and gets a good reception. Zero fags and the like are just the vocal minority from the west, their opinions on other works mean very little in the grand scheme of things. |
My Queens  |
When Fate Zero elitists don't understand everything in Zero comes from Fate Stay Night: Heaven's Feel On-topic: I don't agree Fate has a problem of audience. If anything, having so many different facets probably increases it's appeal. It may have a possible problem of becoming too big for its own good at some point, causing a loss of interest (looking at you, FGO). I personally prefer deep world building and that's something Nasu excels at while other anime, especially those so called isekai that are literally set in entirely fictional worlds, utterly fail to do. As a result, I'm engrossed in the Nasuverse and I seek out Fate anime like EL-Melloi because they continually flesh out and give shape to that world. By incorporating various mage characters who are tangential to the original Fate story, fanservice anime like Fate Zero and El-Melloi II create an "expanded universe" to Fate Stay Night's original trilogy. HopefulNihilist said: Many (key word many) fans of Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Zero, probably won't be interested in Lord El-Melloi II Case Files, because to my knowledge, it's a mystery series. What do you guys think? Do you agree? Or disagree? If so, why? I would think offhand Fate Zero fans would have a strong reason to watch El-Melloi, since it extensively focuses on Waver and his hardon for Iskander , which tbf were the only good parts of Zero. |
| all i can say is Fate/Saber route anime adaptation by ufotable when? just to complete the original Fate series done by ufotable |
| UBW fanboys continue to meltdown over their high school drama being inferior to F/Z... Seems the spin-offs and other stories just appeal to trap fetishes or whatever else.. |
JFujiAug 28, 2019 12:35 AM
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| I think you're right about Fate/Zero fans being disappointed by stay night or UBW, because that's exactly what happened to me. I loved Zero's seriousness and philosophy talk and to this day I still refuse to watch Heaven's Feel or (the rest of) Apocrypha because I know I won't get that again. I didn't like what felt to me like combining a waifu dating simulator with a horrifying death game. It also feels kinda disrespectful to waifu-ize a lot of these mythological/historical figures. I loved Zero partially because it did away with all the horny teenage boy bullshit. But that is just my personal experience. I know there are other people who love all of it unconditionally and I'm kinda jealous of those people. I want to like the rest of the franchise but I can't, because Zero ruined me!, by being just too good. |
ChilliePeppersAug 28, 2019 1:14 AM
| I don't think that Fate franchise has any problem, it's doing just fine... It's a franchise that was build around an erotic visual novels and developed in a pretty rare anime Universe with dozens of iterations, spin offs and games. The fact that after all those years, there are still anime produced, and they find success is poof that it's working. The franchise has a bunch of series, of varied genres, which makes it appeal to a larger audience. But that is in anyway a problem. Peoples who enjoyed the original Fate + Zero, may or may not be attracted to Prisma Illya, but if they chose to watch it or not does not matter as we talk about stand alone shows. |
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Rowan_F said: I don't remember a single thing that happened in saber route of the VN, and a lot of content should definitely be cut out of UBW (it's not even centered around Rin, and Medea/Gilgamesh are ultimately side antagonists compared to Shirou fighting his own hypocrisy). However, I would mention that Heaven's Feel is far darker in terms of atmosphere than the rest of the fate adaptations (including Zero), and owes far more likeness to the KnK movies. Part of this is just the fact that Sakura is an inherently tragic character, which Zero sets up for HF. I think you're right about Fate/Zero fans being disappointed by stay night or UBW, because that's exactly what happened to me. I loved Zero's seriousness and philosophy talk and to this day I still refuse to watch Heaven's Feel or (the rest of) Apocrypha because I know I won't get that again. I didn't like what felt to me like combining a waifu dating simulator with a horrifying death game. It also feels kinda disrespectful to waifu-ize a lot of these historical figures. I loved Zero partially because it did away with all the horny teenage boy bullshit. But that is just my personal experience. I know there are other people who love all of it unconditionally and I'm kinda jealous of those people. I want to like the rest of the franchise but I can't, because Zero ruined me!, by being just too good. Certainly helps that HF is segmented into movies rather than a drawn out 26 episode series. |
HopefulNihilist said: I think the biggest problem with the Fate franchise, is how it doesn't have a clear audience You can look at Gundam which produces different titles for even more varied audience: from kids, through teens to adults and makes money from all of them. I think Fate is actually doing fine because the japanses are well informed which product is for whom. HopefulNihilist said: the same audience that got into Fate through Fate/Zero won't care for Fate/Stay Night because of it's light-hearted tone But F/SN is dark enough, just the treatment of the themes is not very good. It switches from F/Z's mature writing to your regular dumb battle shounen tropes, with long long redundant "I must protect them!" speeches and needless fanservice. Even Heaven's Feel is pretty superficial (at least the two movies are). Thus many fans recommend to start with F/SN because F/Z which is written later actually takes its ideas and develops them...but on the other hand many watchers could be disappointed by F/SN and skip F/Z (almost happened to me) which would be pity. So you start with F/Z and that try to endure many of F/SN blunders. HopefulNihilist said: But that's the thing with the spin offs: they won't necessarily appeal to those who watched Stay Night and Zero, because those series are action, while Emiya-san anime is a slice of life. For me Emiya-san Chi no Kyou no Gohan was actually entertaining by the contrast how in this timeline mortal enemies are living as happy neighbours...which is kind close (or at least some people say that) of the idea of Fate/hollow ataraxia game . Other big franchises do similar stuff with spin offs with different style/atmosphere...like what it's Zero no Tea Time to the Detective Conan manga. More classic example - Archie and all of its spin offs. |
alshuAug 28, 2019 2:25 AM
| I don't see why would it at all be the problem, for a franchise to try and appeal to different audiences. But anyway, I really don't feel that way about it at all. F/Z and SN are not that different, they can easily appeal to the same people and do a lot of the same things. Unless you're like completely against any sort of fluff then I can't understand labeling UBW or HF as 'not serious'. Ehhh, whatever, I don't care, but while I do like Zero the most as well, it's baffling to me when people can love it and at the same time call UBW trash. I mean sure, there comes the additional stuff like fate/kaleid and that is definitely completely different, and personally I wasn't into it at all, but I don't see it as a problem, lol. It's fine, hey, I would say it's excellent that the franchise tries to do so many things. People who say FGO ruined Type Moon? (seen quite a bunch of them on reddit) FUCK THEM. Don't like it, don't play it, it has no impact whatsoever on your muhh serious Zero or whatever else they like... |
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| I'm not sure if it's a problem, they fact that they keep making them shows that they don't have that many problems in finding an audience. But I gotta say it might be kind of annoying if ur interested in just a specific part of the franchise but u have to watch it all just to get to the part u want to watch. Like, I'd like to watch Prisma Illya, but I can't be bothered to watch Fate/zero, UBW and Heaven's feel just to watch a Spin-off |
| I mean is that really a problem though, it's not like you have to like every single entry in the franchise. Hell I'd say having all kinds of different things in a franchise makes it even better, have something for everyone. Sure you might not like everything, but in that case just don't watch it lol |
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| Agree with many posters above. I don't think it's a problem too. In fact I prefer they do it this way to milk as much money as they want from a successful franchise. (as most studios and authors do, by this I meant Nasu, I guess) Rather than making an unnecessarily long story (yes, I am one of those people who can't stand long-running animes, Naruto, Bleach, Fairy Tail, One Piece) just to keep chugging that gravy train. If it works as a parallel universe with a different focus, or it talks about different timelines, then it allows the original story and characters to conclude their story at the sweet spot. Just my two cents. |
| That's not a problem to be honest. You should watch Railgun and you can see it has everything in it and that's make it great |
Thread moved from Anime Discussion |
Take care of yourself |
| I like/don't mind a lot if not all generas of anime so I don't see it as a big issue for Fate to jump back and forth between a lot of generas even if they don't really work well with each other tho my 2 issue with the series is 1-the confusion that comes with trying to watch the darn thing! Like some say to start with zero-->UBW--> heavens feel others say UBW-->zero--> heavens feel and so on, and 2-the huge number of character to keep track of. Other than that tho everything is fine for me so far. (And yes I sarted with zero please have mercy) |
| What I get from this thread is that dumb adult characters that fail in everything they do make a series seinen and mature while teenagers that start their journey believing the same shit those adults did but actually develop to something else are shounen and not serious. Yeah Fate/ has an audience problem.The shallow people that look at the surface and completely fail at understating what the authors tried to do. |
| @AbsurdistOtaku >Fate/Zero is darker than Stay Night Only because a random killer that contributes nothing to the story or narrative does stuff while the other characters except Waver willingly ignore him for no reason. Other than that it isnt darker than any FSN anime series, including the 2006 anime.Betrayals, human sacrifices, sinister goals.Yeah FSN has them all in all routes.The difference is that FSN doesnt include edgy stuff for the sake of having them.Tell me what exactly do Caster and his Master contribute to the story other than being a reason for a big mid series fight? Do their ideals clash with the rest of the cast?Do they threaten the life of any of the main characters?Nope. >and the characters take themselves more seriously. -Kiritsugu doesnt talk to Saber because she is a little girl that took a big responsibility.(this is fine but Shirou is sexist because he doesnt want her to get hurt) -Kayneth knows that Kiritsugu is someone that will resort to anything to kill his enemy but still loses his cool and lose everything because of that. -Kayneth also knows about Diarmuid's story but never takes any counter measures for his fiance. Just let her get Charmed, what could go wrong.At the same time he blames his Servant for this and everything else that is happening. -Also there was no point in making the dual contract and making her be the one to supply mana. -Diarmuid on the other hand doesnt even try to warn or help Kayneth in any way regarding his love spot even tho he clearly knows that Sola is charmed by it. -Rider's arguments to whatever is told is the same bullshit Shirou throws at people before his development in Fate and UBW."What I am doing is right because I said so". -Kiritsugu has an affair with Maiya in order to deal with having to kill Iri. -Tokiomi sits in his basement and sacrifices his pawns for stupid reasons.Assassin could have killed Waver but no lets challenge Rider, that makes sense. -Gil does nothing for 80% of the story...that's actually in line with how he is written in FSN so fine by me. -Saber acts as if she never was King when Rider throws at her some bullshit arguments. -Kariya...well he is insane after ep1 so doesnt matter. -Kiritsugu had his ideal for no reason.He has 0 reasons to kill his dad, it wasnt even his fault. -Aoi is told by Kariya that he will kill her husband and she doesnt react at all.Then she goes batshit crazy when her husband is killed as if nothing foreshadowed it. -Only person to realize something is wrong with Kirei was one guy that never interacted with him(Kiritsugu). But ok lets call them serious because they are over 18. >Shirou never developed into something else, though; in UBW he's barely any different by the end than he was in the beginning. UBW Shirou has accepted where his ideals are coming from and that it doesnt matter if he will never save everyone, something Kiritsugu could never accept. Fate Shirou doesnt change but reinforces his stance on his ideals something that Kiritsugu didnt do either....then again we never had a reason why Kiritsugu wanted to be a hero of justice anyway.This Shirou has accepted that he cant save everyone but will still try to reach that. Yes the difference is very small but it is there.And unlike Kiritsugu who goes from 0 to 100 when he switches from "save everyone" to "kill the few" and again at the end goes from "kill the few" to "i am done" at the same speed, he develops over the course of the series.Kiritsugu is presented with a "truth" twice(first when he was kid,second during the grail dream )and switches mindset on the spot. > Shirou is just as flawed as the characters in Zero Being flawed isnt the issue.The problem is that the Zero cast is treated as serious and smart when it clearly isnt just because they are adults. >What subtext does Fate have? Stay Night and Zero, UBW especially, overstates the intention of the series. You tell me.At least you seem to think that all of them try to do the same thing. |
ssjokgSep 16, 2019 3:05 PM
AbsurdistOtaku said: @ssjokg I feel as though...you are attempting to change the entire course of our discussion, because you want to rant about Fate/Zero; because in one post I was talking about the tone of the Fate series, then when you replied to me you made a long post arguing why Fate/Zero sucks as far as how much the characters' actions make sense, when that wasn't even what I was talking about in the first place. I made this thread asking people how they feel about the overall tone of the Fate series, as well as how they feel the way it constantly switches genres. You said, "The shallow people that look at the surface and completely fail at understating what the authors tried to do." Which I assumed implies that the Fate series has some hidden subtext. I don't think anybody who's watched the Fate series has misunderstood the intention of the author, because both Stay Night and Zero are pretty straightforward in delivering their themes. The tone is the same, at least between Zero and FSN(yeah ok Deen night doesnt actually achieve that). But lets go back in your first post. >I think the biggest problem with the Fate franchise, is how it doesn't have a clear audience: it's at once a seinen/shounen, fantasy, dark fantasy, action, mystery, series, that bounces between being light-hearted as a typical shounen, and dark as a seinen, with waifus. Unless they're open minded, the same audience that got into Fate through Fate/Zero won't care for Fate/Stay Night because of it's light-hearted tone They are the same. Both have pretty dark events, regardless of route in FSN, both have incredibly flawed characters, both have fights with superpowers, both have an MC that is forced to win by the authors, both have lighthearted scenes and both deal with the same theme(well all Fates do but anyway). In the first place Zero was written with the FSN audience/fans as intended readers. Sorry about the previous rant, I actually do like Zero. What I dont like is how viewers treat it and FSN based on pretty dumb stuff.Stuff that make FSn bad somehow make Zero good and vice versa. |
AbsurdistOtaku said: I recall that Stay Night had far more comedic scenes than Zero (although it's been years since I last watched Deen/Night and UBW). What always bugged me especially about Stay Night was the tonal clash between the character designs and the overall tone, Heaven's Feel especially since it's the darkest. You have this dark story, where the characters are dressed like superheroes in Stay Night: Rider looks like a dominatrix, Lancer's ridiculous jumpsuit (I know that he's covered in blue the Irish went to war naked with blue paint, so I would've preferred that), GARcher's manly-as-fuck design that looks stupidly cool, Saber's overly huge dress-armor. With Zero, the character designs looked high-fantasy too, but not exactly superhero-like. Deen 2006 for sure.UBW not really.For every joke with Shirou and Rin we have an scene for Waver and Iskandar doing their thing and some Iri with Saber. Zero Lancer is the same as FSN Lancer except the color and that he has no sleeves. People even mistake Cu for Zero LAncer.Why and how , I dont know but there are viewers who actually asked if they are the same or recognized Cu as Diarmuid arent few. Saber is the same in both. Gil is the same in both. Both Assassins of FSN definitely fit their character. Archer is from so again I dont see the issue. Caster is fine. Although yes Rider is pretty random I cant deny that. But I dont see how this makes the series less serious. |
ssjokgSep 17, 2019 2:51 AM
| When will these Zerofags realize that their "mature and edgy" cast is no different than your typical magus lmfao. |
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AbsurdistOtaku said: ssjokg said: The tone is the same, at least between Zero and FSN(yeah ok Deen night doesnt actually achieve that). But lets go back in your first post. >I think the biggest problem with the Fate franchise, is how it doesn't have a clear audience: it's at once a seinen/shounen, fantasy, dark fantasy, action, mystery, series, that bounces between being light-hearted as a typical shounen, and dark as a seinen, with waifus. Unless they're open minded, the same audience that got into Fate through Fate/Zero won't care for Fate/Stay Night because of it's light-hearted tone They are the same. Both have pretty dark events, regardless of route in FSN, both have incredibly flawed characters, both have fights with superpowers, both have an MC that is forced to win by the authors, both have lighthearted scenes and both deal with the same theme(well all Fates do but anyway). In the first place Zero was written with the FSN audience/fans as intended readers. Sorry about the previous rant, I actually do like Zero. What I dont like is how viewers treat it and FSN based on pretty dumb stuff.Stuff that make FSn bad somehow make Zero good and vice versa. I recall that Stay Night had far more comedic scenes than Zero (although it's been years since I last watched Deen/Night and UBW). What always bugged me especially about Stay Night was the tonal clash between the character designs and the overall tone, Heaven's Feel especially since it's the darkest. You have this dark story, where the characters are dressed like superheroes in Stay Night: Rider looks like a dominatrix, Lancer's ridiculous jumpsuit (I know that he's covered in blue the Irish went to war naked with blue paint, so I would've preferred that), GARcher's manly-as-fuck design that looks stupidly cool, Saber's overly huge dress-armor. With Zero, the character designs looked high-fantasy too, but not exactly superhero-like. Are you serious now? We're really gonna nitpick character designs now? There's barely any difference between FSN and FZ's servants in terms of design ffs. |
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| The main audience for Fate has always been action/fantasy fans before FGO came out/became popular. The franchise itself is very exclusive and mostly try to appeal to existing fans so I don't know where you get that notion that it tries to appeal to everyone by incorporating as many genres it can. That's why you get stuff like Emiya Cooking Show and Carnival Phantasm whose target audience is the already existing fanbase. Despite the exclusivity, the franchise still appeals to outsiders that's why it keeps growing and growing through the years so there's definitely a clear audience here. |
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| Why is it a problem that not everything is made for the same audience? You say it's a problem that it's not made for F/Z fans (i.e., complaining not everything is made for you) but you don't explain why. Why is it a problem (beyond the obvious one of shifting degrees of quality) that it branches itself out and lets various different authors explore the world of Fate in their own different ways? There's so many meaningful things to criticize Fate and Type-Moon for, but this is most definitely not one of them. |
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