| Anyways I just finished episode 46 of Eureka 7 and became aware of a problem. This problem is when the "camera" scrolls on the side, though when it scrolls upwards/downwards I don't have any problems with it. The guiltiest anime of using this (in the ones I saw) is Haikyuu!! especially when they show the team line-ups but I realized it was used a lot in other animes too. My problem with this "visual technique" (gotta improve my english vocabulary my bad) is it doesn't feel fluid and DESTROYS my immersion in the anime. Was wondering if anyone felt the same way as me or if they had another "visual technique" they disliked and just wanted to discuss it. Also I wanted to add an example of it but didn't find anything on Youtube from Haikyuu!! and I'm too lazy to search from somewhere else but I hope that you guys understand what i mean when I say the camera scrolls on the side. Mod edit: Removed all the clickbait stuff and added clearer title. |
DeadlyRavenAug 25, 2019 7:39 AM
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| expected bleeding eyes would not click again 0/10 Also I think generally camera panning and other camera techniques don't disrupted my sense of immersion, unless they feel blatant. For example, having the camera rotate around the action. I usually prefer a static camera over a turning one -- the turning one feels like it's just trying too hard for cinematographic fanciness, while a static camera is more capable of allowing me to actually study and understand the action, particularly the placement of objects and people. This can be key for fight scenes. |
GlennMagusHarveyAug 24, 2019 7:19 PM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| @GlennMagusHarvey I do agree but if it is a static camera it has to sometimes chane angles for it to be interesting, altough it is a given to expect it toto change angle, especially during fight scenes. Though I saw some clips from Kimetsu no Yaiba and their use of the dynamic camera is pretty good I believe. What do you think about the camera scrolling on the sides in a totally horizontal way? |
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| ... I hope bad panning shots are not the only thing that bothered you with Eureka Seven. |
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BiDiGiN said: I don't agree that it has to change angles to be interesting. A static camera or just a linearly panning camera in a fight scene can be pretty effective, especially if it gives a good perspective of everything that's happening. Imagine watching a sports match -- particularly one in close quarters such as a boxing match -- if you're in the live audience. Or, how the camera might show the action in a video game, such as a 2.5-D or 2D-top-down view. Essentially, the perspective doesn't change while your own attention follows the movement and action. I wouldn't mind an animated or live-action production that does that.if it is a static camera it has to sometimes chane angles for it to be interesting BiDiGiN said: I don't have a problem with it.What do you think about the camera scrolling on the sides in a totally horizontal way? Deathko said: The only thing that really bothered me with Eureka Seven was the soccer episode. Otherwise, I didn't really have problems with it, and that includes the panning shots. What bothered you about it?... I hope bad panning shots are not the only thing that bothered you with Eureka Seven. |
GlennMagusHarveyAug 24, 2019 7:45 PM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| @Deathko I do have other problems with it, specially the story which is a bit nonsensical but still enoying it nonetheless. (+ great music) Though if you took the time to respond to this thread please input your opinion on side-scrolling cameras in anime and if you have any other camera panning techniques you find unpleasing to the eyes, do share it, I'd be glad to discuss! |
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| @GlennMagusHarvey 99% of the fights being light dots and trails over a cloudy background? Massive plot armor that culminates in a 1v500 fight were 1 protagonist gets lightly scratched? Sudden drama about "le war is bad, it kills people" that gets instantly forgotten the next ep? Actually, all the bullshit that gets forgotten at every ep? Seven swell thingie power? Appears in ep1, the plot tells us it's super important, it gets forgotten as soon as ep 2 starts. There's something like that in every other ep. The main girl being introduced as some badass pilot, with a badass mech that requires two pilots? Oh she just takes the second seat wich isn't a pilot seat but a passenger seat, and takes care of le children for the next 49 eps because that's what wiminz do. The hilarious lack of character growth that leads to MC-kun trying to mutilate his arm to please his waifu? Eureka Seven deserves a seven... out of 20. at most. About panning shots... Well, when you're a good director, you use panning shots for something relevant. When you're a bad anime director dealing with massive time constraints, you put a panning shot over a still image to "create the illusion of movement" (actually everybody sees the tricks and whines about it) Honestly 95% of anime I saw didn't give a shit about camera techniques. I'm pretty sure good camera angles and using camera techniques to support the story is the last preoccupation of most of the industry. Mod Edit: Merged duplicated posts; please use the edit button. |
DeadlyRavenAug 25, 2019 7:40 AM
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Deathko said: Well, I'm not sure if this was the right place for me to ask, or if this is the right place for me to discuss this, but...@GlennMagusHarvey 99% of the fights being light dots and trails over a cloudy background? Massive plot armor that culminates in a 1v500 fight were 1 protagonist gets lightly scratched? Sudden drama about "le war is bad, it kills people" that gets instantly forgotten the next ep? Actually, all the bullshit that gets forgotten at every ep? Seven swell thingie power? Appears in ep1, the plot tells us it's super important, it gets forgotten as soon as ep 2 starts. There's something like that in every other ep. The main girl being introduced as some badass pilot, with a badass mech that requires two pilots? Oh she just takes the second seat wich isn't a pilot seat but a passenger seat, and takes care of le children for the next 49 eps because that's what wiminz do. The hilarious lack of character growth that leads to MC-kun trying to mutilate his arm to please his waifu? Eureka Seven deserves a seven... out of 20. at most. 1. I distinctly remember a lot of fight scenes involving quite clearly animated mechs. 2. Dun remember this "1v500" thing but I don't remember anything being that poorly justified. Except the sorta outta-nowhere soccer episode. 3. I don't think it was "war is bad" but more so that "those bad people have been doing bad things", which is also a more consistent interpretation. 4. The Seven Swell effect is meant to not show up until a while later. It's not meant to be some sort of ultimate attack technique that just happens anytime Renton wants it to happen. It can only be activated under certain conditions, and early on, he doesn't yet understand what they are and how to achieve them. 5. Eureka isn't portrayed as a badass at all, until maybe late in the series, and that's still debatable. 6. Eureka takes care of the children because she's nice to them. Renton learns to build a relationship with them later on, as he matures. 7. Renton does dumb things as part of his process of growing up. The first half of the show can be rather slow at times, but IMO it's all worth the payoff that happens around the middle of the show. Deathko said: This I agree with.Honestly 95% of anime I saw didn't give a shit about camera techniques. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| @GlennMagusHarvey Taking box for example, the one you watch on tv not in the live audience, they will sometimes change the camera that is streaming to keep your attention to the match. It can be effective during a fight to use a single angle but it really depends on the length of the fight. Actually using soccer would be a better example as the camera always hovers over the stage looking at the ball, it does move but the angle is the same. I think it is just a preference i have for multiple angles. So if you have time go to episode 46 of Eureka 7 and go to 5:05, 10:54, 15:00, 15;28. Those are the most blatant examples I found less fluid, I don't know if it's my eyes or something but I feel like the scrolling staggers on the images if that makes sense and I immediatly realize and lose immersion. I did find the soccer episode to be totally out of place and the same problem applies with some of the early episode. |
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| 2. Literally the last fight. 1 ship against an army. 3. Please, you see renton crushing a mecha and blood comes out (probably the only gory kill in the whole show) and suddenly he starts the whole ep crying. Everything's back to normal the next ep and hundreds of no-names are slaughtered without a second thought 4. I don't remember a quarter of these boring plot devices being reused ever. I'm not rewatching it to confirm tho. 6 She's nice to them because she's a wimin who needs a knight in mecha armor in her life 7 That scene is like, in the 47th or 48th ep? If Renton doesn't change over the course of 48 episodes, Imma call it a lack of character progression. It's not even a case of "hey Shinji is going better today, lets give him a shitty episode to make him quit piloting again", it's just Renton being written by someone who thinks that scene of him trying to cut his arm was super cool and mature and a proof of love. |
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Deathko said: @GlennMagusHarvey 99% of the fights being light dots and trails over a cloudy background? Massive plot armor that culminates in a 1v500 fight were 1 protagonist gets lightly scratched? Sudden drama about "le war is bad, it kills people" that gets instantly forgotten the next ep? Actually, all the bullshit that gets forgotten at every ep? Seven swell thingie power? Appears in ep1, the plot tells us it's super important, it gets forgotten as soon as ep 2 starts. There's something like that in every other ep. The main girl being introduced as some badass pilot, with a badass mech that requires two pilots? Oh she just takes the second seat wich isn't a pilot seat but a passenger seat, and takes care of le children for the next 49 eps because that's what wiminz do. The hilarious lack of character growth that leads to MC-kun trying to mutilate his arm to please his waifu? Eureka Seven deserves a seven... out of 20. at most. I feel like you're being a bit unfair to the show. 1. The fights are actually well animated for most part, I think you don't remember it very well. 2.Totally true, but I suppose that's how it when Chad MC fights Virgin soldier, though a lot of mech shows fall under that inconsistency, in the end it is true it's pretty ridiculous. 3. Actually that's because of the weird execution of the story going from point to point, and instead of depicting it as war is bad, it is more like Renton realizes that not everything is happy and easy in life and hardships are necessary blablabla the usual shitpost. 4. Same thing as Glenn. 5. Actually she's more depicted in the beginning as someone weird and mysterious which we don't know much about and have some things to reveal. 6. She takes care of the children because she realizes that humans are life and have intelligence and emotions blablabla protect and take care blablabla the usual shitpost. 7.Same thing as Glenn but it's true that the arm mutilating was kind of weird. I'd probably give it a 7/10, though I still have 4 episodes to watch and the conclusion is important in my rating scale (the reminiscent factor) so it might change. |
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BiDiGiN said: I happened to have my archives on hand so I went and checked.So if you have time go to episode 46 of Eureka 7 and go to 5:05, 10:54, 15:00, 15;28. At 5:05 it's panning to show the expressions of the various people. I think it makes sense. If you don't like it I dunno how it would be made less jarring for you, aside from maybe changing to two still shots or something. 10:54 is a similar case, it's panning over a horizontally-wide scene, and the same applies to 15:00 and 15:28. I really don't see how it's all that different from the camera panning vertically. BiDiGiN said: Maybe you have a weirdly-encoded version of the video that causes horizontal scrolling to stagger? I'm suspecting that because the animation definitely should not stagger like you seem to be implying.Those are the most blatant examples I found less fluid, I don't know if it's my eyes or something but I feel like the scrolling staggers on the images if that makes sense and I immediatly realize and lose immersion. Deathko said: War is weird and inconsistent like that.3. Please, you see renton crushing a mecha and blood comes out (probably the only gory kill in the whole show) and suddenly he starts the whole ep crying. Everything's back to normal the next ep and hundreds of no-names are slaughtered without a second thought Deathko said: There's a number of terms that aren't fully explained, but the Seven Swell is pretty dramatic when it happens and it's pretty obviously tied to 4. I don't remember a quarter of these boring plot devices being reused ever. I'm not rewatching it to confirm tho. . If that's not really your cup of tea, fair enough. Deathko said: Being nice to the orphans really has very little to do with "wanting a knight in shining mecha armor". As for the latter, she actually doesn't want him early on, and kinda treats him coldly, in stark contrast to his obvious infatuation. It's only after a long period of time where he stops being just infatuated and starts showing he actually cares for her, and after she also grows more fond of him (particularly in contrast to some of her interactions with the other crewmates), that she ends up falling for him.6 She's nice to them because she's a wimin who needs a knight in mecha armor in her life Deathko said: (Actually it's episode 45.) Character progression doesn't mean someone magically only ever does all the right things; besides, adults are also known to do stupid things for love.7 That scene is like, in the 47th or 48th ep? If Renton doesn't change over the course of 48 episodes, Imma call it a lack of character progression. It's not even a case of "hey Shinji is going better today, lets give him a shitty episode to make him quit piloting again", it's just Renton being written by someone who thinks that scene of him trying to cut his arm was super cool and mature and a proof of love. Anyhow, this is probably just another case of YMMV. For example I cried during that scene and I'm still tearing up rewatching it in bits, because I can really feel Renton's emotions in that scene. |
GlennMagusHarveyAug 24, 2019 8:30 PM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Deathko said: 6 She's nice to them because she's a wimin who needs a knight in mecha armor in her life Didn’t know taking care of children is a thing women can’t do 🙄Seriously you’re thinking way too deep about the subcontext of this |
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| stop threatening people with your misspellings |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| @GlennMagusHarvey No it's definitively not because of a weirdly encoded version of the video as it happens basically everytime there is a side-scrolling shot. And it totally makes sense it is done to show the expression of the persons presented. The more I think about it the more I think it is because I don't know where to focus my eyes on. On a vertically-scrolling shot I usually focus on what is revealed in the upper/lower zone of the screen, the easy example for it would be: character falls in front of friend/cute girl and raises his head up. I'll usually focus on what appears to see the face of the character at the end of the shot while the horizontal-scrolling shot exactly wants you to see all those characters at the same time, which is too hard for me to focus onto and makes the image stagger in my brain or something. I suppose I just answered my own question but I'm really not sure about this interpretation. EDIT: My bad damn sometimes I should reread everything before submitting, I'll have to take this habit. |
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Skeptic said: Deathko said: 6 She's nice to them because she's a wimin who needs a knight in mecha armor in her life Didn’t know taking care of children is a thing women can’t do 🙄Seriously you’re thinking way too deep about the subcontext of this C'mon it's literally all she does. She shuts up, takes care of the kids and is submissive af like every asian woman should be. I'm sorry I'm thinking about the stuff I watch instead of swallowing it absent-mindedly tho. Guess it explains the popularity of some really shallow shows. Maybe I thought too much about the cardboard characters in S;G too, it's probably enjoyable if you put your brain in the fridge before starting to watch it. |
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| @Deathko Her submissive character was modeled by the military, they compare the Coralians to white sheets of paper being writable onto and whatever. Compare it to the other coralians Anemone and Sakuya who were raised in different environments and under different conditions so have a different behavior. She helps the kids because realisations about war blablabla usual shitpost. You definitively are overthinking it or simply didn't focus when watching it. |
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Deathko said: ...she...isn't even Asian?Skeptic said: Didn’t know taking care of children is a thing women can’t do 🙄Seriously you’re thinking way too deep about the subcontext of this C'mon it's literally all she does. She shuts up, takes care of the kids and is submissive af like every asian woman should be. I'm sorry I'm thinking about the stuff I watch instead of swallowing it absent-mindedly tho. Guess it explains the popularity of some really shallow shows. Maybe I thought too much about the cardboard characters in S;G too, it's probably enjoyable if you put your brain in the fridge before starting to watch it. I'd agree with @BiDiGiN on this one; you're reading way too hard into this. It doesn't take "submissive Asian woman" to take care of kids; it just takes someone with some patience and compassion, which she has. She isn't my favorite character of all time, as her character archetype isn't my favorite archetype ever, but I can't say there's anything particularly wrong with it. If you wanted to try to bring a metacontextual interpretation into this, I guess you could try to read it the way you do, and I guess one could also make the point that both Eureka and her foil are in a similar "weird girl with ordinary boy" sort of pairing, and I guess you could argue that isn't progressive or something, but I don't think such an argument is particularly relevant, as all four characters are given a pretty good depth of characterization explaining what they do. |
GlennMagusHarveyAug 24, 2019 9:35 PM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| So for some arbitrary reason you don't like lateral camera movement, a technique almost as old as film itself that has worked for billions of people until now? Sucks to be you, since that technique is very popular as you pointed out. But why did we need to know about this again? Seems more like a blogpost that then turned into an argument about one specific show, neither of which really belong on AD. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| @Pullman very true, I shall delete. Was expecting some discussion about others people thought on this but whatever. Even the mod that edited my post didn't respond :( |
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BiDiGiN said: @Pullman very true, I shall delete. Was expecting some discussion about others people thought on this but whatever. Even the mod that edited my post didn't respond :( The mod actually changed it into an interesting question, but it's also one that 99% of anime fans won't reply to because they don't care about film or animation techniques. Personally I'm not a big fan of the camera panning over stills, or just the liberal use of stills in general. I don't care about the direction of the panning, and I don't mind it if it is combined with actual animation, but panning over still imagery for prolonged periods of time just isn't animation and way too many anime use that technique liberally, not for any intended effect on the viewer, but just because it's cheap and camera movement can create the illusion of something actually happening on screen, but without having to do any of the pesky animation work. Often stuff can feel more like a montage, when a show pans over one still after another for a minute or two. It just sucks. It's a bread and butter technique of anime, and I'm used to it so it doesn't bother me that much, but it's just lazy and cheap and almost always the inferior choice to doing the same scene or pan just with some animation. And it's literally everywhere, all the time except maybe high budget movies and OVAs. It's the main reason why anime is less fluid than western animation, on average. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| Okay, we're 22 posts into this thread and most of it has been arguing about Eureka Seven, so I'm actually gonna try and answer the question. I guess more in the realm of visual techniques than specific camera techniques, but lighting. I hate dull, flat daytime lighting, in both anime and live action. The colours would shine so much brighter if directors just let the sun hang a bit lower in the sky. Obviously the opposite is true as well, too much darkness. It's easy to give us feeling of darkness just by telling us that a place is dark and not literally making the screen as dark as possible. Just have everything be clearly visible and just tell us that it's super dark, we'll buy it. |
| Hell ye somebody read the thread and responded!(looking at you +30 profile views 10 minutes after I dropped the thread and nobody responded anything) Actually I prefer when there are dark tones and what not to say it's dark, it doesn't have to be too dark though. Like if it was as bright as it is supposed to be in daytime that'd definitively be weird. I don't really understand what you mean by the sun thingy so if you have any example where the sun hangs low to enlighten me that'd be pretty nice. Though on the subject of sun lighting:  Ashita no Joe is about boxing and the use of lighting effects coming from the hole in the roof of the stadium looked weird at first but actually is pretty slick. EDIT: forgot the mention @Rowan_F wink wink |
BiDiGiNAug 25, 2019 11:17 AM
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Pullman said: The mod changed it into a thread topic I actually would normally care about if not out of curiosity. So, thank you @DeadlyRaven.BiDiGiN said: @Pullman very true, I shall delete. Was expecting some discussion about others people thought on this but whatever. Even the mod that edited my post didn't respond :( The mod actually changed it into an interesting question, but it's also one that 99% of anime fans won't reply to because they don't care about film or animation techniques. The previous title was intentional clickbait and felt very dirty and scummy. I did not like it. I only replied in spite of my objection to the title, because I had something I felt was interesting to say about the topic. Anyhow, 99% of anime fans won't reply to this thread anyway, in a way that applies to basically all threads here. This thread as it currently stands is a pretty reasonable discussion question IMO and is something I'd reply to if I hadn't already. The only way you'd get a giant pileon is if you did some sort of super-common topic like "dubs or subs?". |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| @GlennMagusHarvey Eh I'm kinda triggered all my threads get low amounts of answer while some people just do listing threads and get 50+ replies all saying the same thing so I wanted to get some more clicks, it is pretty scummy but I don't think I'd have gotten more answers if I had a legitimate title. Your addition to the thread started it so I'm pretty thankful. Though like I still had those 30 profile views 10 minutes after submitting the thread so I feel like people just didn't want to or had anything to add to the topic which does annoy me. |
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| I don't think this is particularly common in anime as a whole but the letterboxing (black bars at the top and bottom of the screen) in Kanata no Astra bothers me. I'm not sure what it's supposed to be accomplishing but it just makes the shots feel weirdly cramped for no reason, and it seems like the anime wasn't entirely made with this effect in mind given that it often ends up cutting off parts of characters' heads. It just comes off as a misguided attempt at being artsy and different that falls flat on its face. |
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BiDiGiN said: Hell ye somebody read the thread and responded!(looking at you +30 profile views 10 minutes after I dropped the thread and nobody responded anything) Actually I prefer when there are dark tones and what not to say it's dark, it doesn't have to be too dark though. Like if it was as bright as it is supposed to be in daytime that'd definitively be weird. I don't really understand what you mean by the sun thingy so if you have any example where the sun hangs low to enlighten me that'd be pretty nice. EDIT: forgot the mention @Rowan_F wink wink Sure. It's easier to show in live action than in anime   On the left is Thor: The Dark World and the right is Captain America: Civil War. You see how the Thor shot just has much more colour to it and in a relatively quiet scene to, while the airport fight looks kinda dull and grey. A lot of that is due to the lighting. The Thor scene was done a lot later in the day, combining the low sun with the film lights they had and with colour grading in the edit to create give the colours that extra bit of exposure and brightness. The MCU just generally got uglier over time in my opinion. I'm not sure of all the technical language so I hope that made sense. |
L_O_V_E_L_A_I_N said: I don't think this is particularly common in anime as a whole but the letterboxing (black bars at the top and bottom of the screen) in Kanata no Astra bothers me. I'm not sure what it's supposed to be accomplishing but it just makes the shots feel weirdly cramped for no reason, and it seems like the anime wasn't entirely made with this effect in mind given that it often ends up cutting off parts of characters' heads. It just comes off as a misguided attempt at being artsy and different that falls flat on its face. Had the same thing in Detroit Metal City, but instead of it being on top and at the bottom, it was on the sides. It didn't annoy me though, I suppose they did it to have less to draw or something and make you focus on what's happening. |
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| Panning shots are somewhat wrongly used in a lot of anime. They work best when there's a lot to see on-screen and when the scene would not benefit from multiple cuts; however, most panning shots are instead wasted on scenes where characters only move their mouths (and, at most, their eyes), and I can only assume they're being used to extend running time without actually spending time/money to animate gestures or other, more interesting, camera angles. I'll throw in Happy Sugar Life as an example of bad use of slow panning shots. I watched most of it at 1.5x speed and scenes with panning felt normal at that speed i.e. not almost-still shots but not going by too fast to see what's going on. |
| @Rowan_F Don't worry I understood (hopefully), the lighting in both shots does feel similar even though the second shot has clouds but is still very clean. In anime lighting usually does feel a bit worse than in live action series/movies but it really depends of the atmosphere that it wants to bring and can sometimes help in darker toned animes, best example I have is Monster.  The sun is rarely (actually I'm pretty sure it never is) bright in the anime and is definitively done by purpose to keep a certain dark atmoshpere. |
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BiDiGiN said: I didn't really do much and I even contributed to the Eureka Seven derail haha@GlennMagusHarvey Eh I'm kinda triggered all my threads get low amounts of answer while some people just do listing threads and get 50+ replies all saying the same thing so I wanted to get some more clicks, it is pretty scummy but I don't think I'd have gotten more answers if I had a legitimate title. Your addition to the thread started it so I'm pretty thankful. Though like I still had those 30 profile views 10 minutes after submitting the thread so I feel like people just didn't want to or had anything to add to the topic which does annoy me. Anyway, listing threads aren't even supposed to be allowed. The thing with threads is that... (0. If you're just looking for attention, don't post.) 1. Threads that are easy to reply to will get more replies. (This means easy-to-understand premise and easy to think of answers.) 2. Threads that people have strong opinions on will get more replies. But honestly you'd be surprised to the depth to which people will talk about some things. Might not be the things you're interested in. But still, look at how many people have posted example pictures of stuff to this thread. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| @GlennMagusHarvey I think that if you didn't respond the thread would just have gotten engulfed by the rest and even the E7 derail kept the thread going on until some ppl see it and respond. The two points are right but easy questions are easy, I don't need to discuss them, I want interesting threads which doesn't happen as much as I'd like to, sometimes I do decide not to respond to some threads but that's just because I don't have any useful addition to it, it can still be interesting to read. Also I'm pretty sure I'm the only one that posted pictures with Rowan after i asked him for an example. |
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BiDiGiN said: oops, i failed a spot checkAlso I'm pretty sure I'm the only one that posted pictures with Rowan after i asked him for an example. But there are still a good number of folks around who are into animation and sakuga and cinematography and stuff like that. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| It's mostly bad execution of said techniques that bothers me, but I can't stand poorly used/overused dutch angles and ugly, low res digital zoom-ins. |
| There are a couple shows from Bee Train I've watched that have had upside down shots for reasons completely beyond my comprehension. There's nothing wrong with being a bit experimental, but it only worked like once and every other time I've encountered it it's been really jarring. Bee Train's stuff in general feels like it has poor shot framing, even in their shows I like. |
Whenever the camera goes underneath the character's face. Faces from below just look strange, it's never a good look XD |
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