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Are there any Shounen series that you think would've been much better had they been more mature?

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#1
Aug 18, 2:52 AM

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For me, I think I would've like Hunter x Hunter and FMA Brotherhood much more if they were seinen. Don't get me wrong, these two shows tackle many mature themes that most shounen don't even touch upon, but I personally think the authors could've done much more with those themes if the shows were aimed at adults.

I am not saying that those two shows are childish or that they cannot be enjoyed by adults. There were many cliches and shounen tropes present in them. Hunter x Hunter deviates from much of the tropes, but FMA is plagued by them.

For example, Dr. Stone airing this season is pretty much crap. It tries to please its audience with fights and feats that never would've been possible, but since there needs to be some sort of battle in a shounen series, be it mental or physical, there are these strong af high school kids performing physics defying feats. It has a great premise and would've been much better if it took itself seriously.
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#2
Aug 18, 2:53 AM

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All of them would be better if they were more mature.

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#3
Aug 18, 2:55 AM

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They would literally be the same series but published in a different magazine. Shounen and Seinen at best have minor differences with the only noteworthy cases being seinen can get away with more graphic content (gore, nudity, etc.). None of which really add anything to narrative tropes or cliches and even using those two examples would not have any distinct place in the narrative.
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#4
Aug 18, 3:08 AM

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Shonen and seinen have nothing to do with the content, in fact I find most seinen to be as "immature" as your average shonen TV show/book. Now regarding FMA and HxH, I think that they balanced shonen tropes and mature themes fairly well.
I really enjoy those "helicopter ride" memes
 
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Aug 18, 3:18 AM

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GamerDLM said:
They would literally be the same series but published in a different magazine. Shounen and Seinen at best have minor differences with the only noteworthy cases being seinen can get away with more graphic content (gore, nudity, etc.). None of which really add anything to narrative tropes or cliches and even using those two examples would not have any distinct place in the narrative.


Uh huh. You need to do more research, there's a substantial gap in presentation and the way many things are handled (from characters to the writing). If the differences between the two were as superficial as you make them out to be, then how come i want to scratch my eyes out any time i try a Shounen?
 
#6
Aug 18, 3:20 AM
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Attack on Titan and Death Note are shonen btw so isnt that mature enough?

K-On is seinen btw lol
 
#7
Aug 18, 3:20 AM

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Basicially every single one of them.

 
#8
Aug 18, 3:24 AM

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ugmon said:
Attack on Titan and Death Note are shonen btw so isnt that mature enough?


Death Note is leaning towards Seinen in my honest opinion. And quite possibly one of the best Shounens i ever seen. Personally. a lot of it has to do with it being darker toned though. So i cannot be absolutely sure. I like animes that are not too battle focused and retain some level of down to earthness.

 
#9
Aug 18, 3:26 AM

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I'd say Bungou Stray Dogs. It would be better if hadn't that classic shounen comic scene on it.
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Aug 18, 3:27 AM
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@GatesOfOblivion

MAL is really making a lot of disinformation with the labels shonen and seinen as though they are genres or a indicator of maturity
 
Aug 18, 3:32 AM

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I thnk JoJo shoud have been a seinen, woud have made the show alot cooler and not as childish as it is.
 
Aug 18, 3:33 AM
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Nillwas said:
I thnk JoJo shoud have been a seinen, woud have made the show alot cooler and not as childish as it is.
it becomes seinen after part 6

also jojo isn't childish, but if you're talking about first few part not being completely serious then yes but part 5 was really serious and later parts will be really complex in terms of story but death note is a shonen too so a label doesn't change things much.
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Aug 18, 3:34 AM
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Nillwas said:
I thnk JoJo shoud have been a seinen, woud have made the show alot cooler and not as childish as it is.


It was originally serialized in Weekly Shōnen Jump from 1987 to 2004 before being transferred to the monthly seinen magazine Ultra Jump in 2005.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JoJo%27s_Bizarre_Adventure

this labels do not mean shit to be honest aside from battle shonen
 
Aug 18, 3:34 AM

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ugmon said:
@GatesOfOblivion

MAL is really making a lot of disinformation with the labels shonen and seinen as though they are genres or a indicator of maturity


I agree with you, they are not genres. But, they are still somewhat of an indicator of maturity.

A Seinen tailors to an older demographic and has more room to experiment. Take risks and so on. It isn't bound by the limitations of media that is aimed towards younger people (kids).

You can see that reflected in a variety of Seinen animes thematically almost right away.

I suppose it really depends on the perspective and how you come to understand said demographics. As for me i think i gotten a fair grasp on it all and don't require further input.
 
Aug 18, 3:34 AM

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GatesOfOblivion said:
GamerDLM said:
They would literally be the same series but published in a different magazine. Shounen and Seinen at best have minor differences with the only noteworthy cases being seinen can get away with more graphic content (gore, nudity, etc.). None of which really add anything to narrative tropes or cliches and even using those two examples would not have any distinct place in the narrative.


Uh huh. You need to do more research, there's a substantial gap in presentation and the way many things are handled (from characters to the writing). If the differences between the two were as superficial as you make them out to be, then how come i want to scratch my eyes out any time i try a Shounen?

Because you put way too much emphasis on a demographic tag that generally has no meaning except when referencing a publisher.

Edit: To add extra emphasis using an example you took notice of, Death Note literally published the entirety of the series in Weekly Shounen Jump. Meaning it was targeted at the exact same demographic as One Piece, Bleach, Naruto, Gintama, Katekyo Hitman Reborn, D. Gray man and To Love Ru to name just a few examples of series published at least in part during the same time period. But you went out of your way to claim it's closer to seinen based on presentation when it is unequivocally a shounen series.

But just for an added point this is also why it's extremely rare to see demographic tags on original series or light novel adaptations, because publishers for light novels rarely focus on single demographics and original series obviously have no publisher. As a result it's extremely uncommon to see series with those as a source also include a demographic tag.
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Aug 18, 3:38 AM
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@GatesOfOblivion

ye people like you make shonen and seinen labels as though they are age ratings which is kinda wrong most of the times anyway since shonen and seinen have not much difference in the grand scheme of things
 
Aug 18, 3:44 AM

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ugmon said:
@GatesOfOblivion

ye people like you make shonen and seinen labels as though they are age ratings which is kinda wrong most of the times anyway since shonen and seinen have not much difference in the grand scheme of things


I am sorry, but we are going to have to agree to disagree. If you're able to appreciate all anime regardless of the targeted age group more power to you.

I never could, and believe me i have tried to see it beyond the labels. Giving it a fair chance to prove me wrong. Quite a bit of time has passed and my feelings haven't changed. Seinens seem to genuinely work better for me. Josei too.

Have doubts you would be interested in this, but it is one of multiple sources on the internet that supports my suspicions. Screenshot: http://prntscr.com/ou5wlq
 
Aug 18, 3:49 AM
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err ok

just gonna add Gundam as another shonen
 
Aug 18, 4:41 AM

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Definitely Dr. Stone. I think it really misses more seriousness to it. Its plot would work much better as Seinen imo.
 
Aug 18, 6:22 AM

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Zatch Bell would have been ruined if it was seinen.
 
Aug 18, 7:04 AM

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I agree on FMA, not so much on HxH.

In FMA the plot and development of everything had room for a more serious tone.

HxH wasn't that funny nor laid back, having some kids going trough some pretty dark shit gave the show the perfect gap and it improved my enjoyment.

And I would like to add Fairy tail, the plot and setting actually could have been serious... or it could have been funnier. That show is the perfect example of doing both in a mediocre way while having a couple of shinning moments.

MrZawa said:
Definitely Dr. Stone. I think it really misses more seriousness to it. Its plot would work much better as Seinen imo.
I disagree, being to serious would be bad for the show imo.
 
Aug 18, 8:20 AM

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GatesOfOblivion said:
ugmon said:
@GatesOfOblivion

MAL is really making a lot of disinformation with the labels shonen and seinen as though they are genres or a indicator of maturity


I agree with you, they are not genres. But, they are still somewhat of an indicator of maturity.

A Seinen tailors to an older demographic and has more room to experiment. Take risks and so on. It isn't bound by the limitations of media that is aimed towards younger people (kids).

You can see that reflected in a variety of Seinen animes thematically almost right away.

I suppose it really depends on the perspective and how you come to understand said demographics. As for me i think i gotten a fair grasp on it all and don't require further input.


Isayama the author for Attack on Titan said his magazine gave him the room to do whatever he wants, maybe because his series was the first in the magazine and the most successful? But no one is holding him bk, the only thing that will be censor are full on nudity, which is censor by most magazine anyways even in seinen magazine.

Attack on Titan also has even grown in maturity as the series goes on each year, probably someone magazine like shounen jump limits author on what they can and cannot do since they are so strict, but not all shounen magazine is like that and as many as said before Shounen isn't a genre it's a demographic.

But it is true though, the chances are higher to find a more mature theme series in a seinen magazine than a shounen magazine, that doesn't mean every shounen series is immature and that every seinen series is mature.

And you can find plenty of example of that if you look around.
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Aug 18, 9:23 AM
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Dr. Stone is really the only shounen I can think of.
It's premise is nice, but it's ruined by shounen cliches
 
Aug 18, 10:35 AM
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I don’t understand why OP thinks seinen is better than shounen by default.

NicOz42 said:
I'd say Bungou Stray Dogs. It would be better if hadn't that classic shounen comic scene on it.

Its a seinen, not shonen.
 
Aug 18, 10:48 AM

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I say The Promised Neverland, felt like it held back way too many times when it had the chances. Whether that's the author's choosing or because of its shounen nature idk, but it definitely broke the immersion

MeisterDM said:
I don’t understand why OP thinks seinen is better than shounen by default.

I don't think that's what OP's trying to get at. They're just pointing out how some series' could've had more potential to do better if they were a bit more mature in their overall presentation
'On-Hold' is another way for a completionist to say 'Dropped'


 
Aug 18, 11:00 AM

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Short_Circut said:
I say The Promised Neverland, felt like it held back way too many times when it had the chances. Whether that's the author's choosing or because of its shounen nature idk, but it definitely broke the immersion

MeisterDM said:
I don’t understand why OP thinks seinen is better than shounen by default.

I don't think that's what OP's trying to get at. They're just pointing out how some series' could've had more potential to do better if they were a bit more mature in their overall presentation


It would make more sense if he didn't use "seinen" as an indication of what is "mature" if this was the author intention, it means it would be the same whether it was in shounen, seinen or shoujo for example, that is why his thread is kinda dumb, don't use these tags to try and make sense.

For example snk kuinaku sentaku was made in a shoujo magazine therefore it is a shoujo series, does it feel like one though? https://myanimelist.net/anime/25781/Shingeki_no_Kyojin__Kuinaki_Sentaku

These tags are useless or should I say, not right all the time, because there are exceptions to every magazine, and should not be use as an indication to whether a series can be mature, light hearted etc.

shadowblaster5 said:
Dr. Stone is really the only shounen I can think of.
It's premise is nice, but it's ruined by shounen cliches


If that is how the author wants to write the series, then no matter which magazine it is in, it wont make a difference, the only difference could be that the manga could be able to show nipples that is about it.
 
Aug 18, 11:17 AM

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Idk, Hunter x Hunter seemed pretty dark and mature to me.

For a show that could benefit from a more serious tone and darker themes, I'd say My Hero Academia.


What's the difference?
 
Aug 18, 11:28 AM

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I think so yes, all if not most.
The difference between shounen and seinen by definition,the former is written for young boys (typ. 7-13) the latter for young men (typ. 18-25) although there's always exceptions to the rule.
I enjoy all anime but do wish more was created for an adult audience.
 
Aug 18, 11:33 AM

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so are you saying that Dr. Stone would be mature if there's rape content?

That would be something I'd appreciate. I mean Goblin Slayer is mature and some ppl call it edgy so now I don't know what it means for a show to be mature.
 
Aug 18, 11:43 AM

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NicOz42 said:
I'd say Bungou Stray Dogs. It would be better if hadn't that classic shounen comic scene on it.


Bungou actually is listed as seinen xd


 
Aug 18, 12:28 PM

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Pretty much all of them would be better if they were seinen.
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Aug 18, 12:34 PM

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Its kind of an oxymoron to tag a shounen anime as "mature". Some are very mature like HxH and gintama, but most of the time they're not. Goku screaming at the top of his lungs for 5 episodes isn't very mature lol.

I would say maybe fairy tail. Everything was about friendship, and the power of friendship, it would be a really good shounen if it took itself more seriously. Along with seven deadly sins.
 
Aug 18, 12:37 PM

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GamerDLM said:
They would literally be the same series but published in a different magazine. Shounen and Seinen at best have minor differences with the only noteworthy cases being seinen can get away with more graphic content (gore, nudity, etc.). None of which really add anything to narrative tropes or cliches and even using those two examples would not have any distinct place in the narrative.
I mean A.o.T. is published in a syounen magazine and is pretty graphic.

Also Aki-Sora was published in a syounen which had like 1/3 of its panels devoted to nudity and rape.

I agree these terms are meaningless.


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Aug 18, 1:17 PM

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Most shounen is bad though. Even if some of them talked about darker themes, nothing can be good if it has bad writing.Middle aged men and women writing as if they were 13 year olds. We have reached amazing levels of cringe.
 
Aug 18, 1:33 PM

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Pretty much any shonen would be better if it was a seinen because seinen removes the boundaries and allows the author to be as graphic and cover as dark themes as he wants while shonen still needs to cater to younger audiences, they can try to be dark but there is a risk of editors not seeing it fit for a shonen and they would have to rewrite it
 
Aug 18, 1:37 PM

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Literally every shounen would be ten times better if it was more mature

 
Aug 18, 1:39 PM
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Fairy Tail, duh. it doesn't even manage to explore it's themes well, even compared to other shonens
 
Aug 18, 1:39 PM
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this is useless since Shonen can already be mature as Seinen

if you want tits showing for example then Darling in the FranXX manga is shonen and it has that

Claymore is shonen too btw just to add another one
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Aug 18, 1:41 PM
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Well yeah I am 22 yrs old and my Shounen meter is slowly dropping. I definitely lean towards having Dr.Stone(say) being more mature than it is right now.

But still, I have enjoyed all kinds of Shounen when i was a kid and looking back at these shows(Bakugan, Beyblade etc) which meant so much to me back then are without a doubt gonna bore the hell outta me right now.For the same reason I watched Nanatsu no Taizi recently and gave it a very low score but I think it is really a very well made shounen anime that i would have loved had i watched it 8 years ago.

And I personally feel that kids don't really dig mature series(well duh i guess). Anyways what i am trying to say is that if kids less than 15 y.o love Dr.Stone or other Shounen I won't complain.After all they are the primary demographic right?Let them have their fun while they are young.
 
Aug 18, 2:11 PM

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Kobayasan said:
Pretty much any shonen would be better if it was a seinen because seinen removes the boundaries and allows the author to be as graphic and cover as dark themes as he wants while shonen still needs to cater to younger audiences, they can try to be dark but there is a risk of editors not seeing it fit for a shonen and they would have to rewrite it


Not every magazine is like shounen jump you know, when the author for attack on titan publish his draft to shounen jump they wanted him to make various changes including making Eren a bit more happy like luffy for example, the author didn't want that plus they turn down his work for its bad art style and then he went to a new magazine and they gave him all the freedom he wants.

beminim said:
Most shounen is bad though. Even if some of them talked about darker themes, nothing can be good if it has bad writing.Middle aged men and women writing as if they were 13 year olds. We have reached amazing levels of cringe.


Not necessarily bad, you just grew out of the phase, they are aimed for mostly teenagers for a reason, so when you get older you can't relate, plus the themes most time are too childish, but again I wouldn't say they are bad.

I'm not really a fan of most shounen series myself because most of them stay in the same type of story telling and having the typical happy main character, that is why my hero felt average to me, because it doesn't have any interesting themes nor touch on anything that would make you second think things, I would have definitely enjoy series like my hero more 10 years ago.


TinyTempest said:
Literally every shounen would be ten times better if it was more mature


I'm not sure how much more mature snk can get, perhaps adding rape and full on sex scenes would be your definition of more mature?
 
Aug 18, 2:25 PM

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Pragyan1 said:
For me, I think I would've like Hunter x Hunter and FMA Brotherhood much more if they were seinen. There were many cliches and shounen tropes present in them. Hunter x Hunter deviates from much of the tropes, but FMA is plagued by them.

I don't see the need to make them "seinen", but they could've cut down a bit on the "shonen". But I agree, Brotherhood at the end becomes too much of a battle shonen, which is why I preferred the 2003 FMA.
Brotherhood grows too much in scale: there's a war to save humanity, dozens of characters, the powers become the focus of the story, whereas 2003 remains small, personal and centered on the boys all the way to the end. In Brotherhood the plot drags the brothers along where in 2003 the brothers move the plot forward with their actions.
 
Aug 18, 2:30 PM

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How about almost all of them.

Not being particularly harsh. There are plenty of great shounen, but the vast majority would be improved if they were more honest with their themes. Whether it be romances that ignore sex, action that avoids gore, or... well I guess that's it, really. Sex and violence are a part of life but shounen anime have to dance around the subjects or show things in a kind of obscured, distorted way and it's like... I'm pretty sure the anime fandom is mostly in their twenties, come on...

But it's the way with so much media throughout the world. This relates to how advertisers target kids even though they could reach more people - with more money too - if they catered more to adults. But kids are firstly easy to manipulate and get excited for products, and secondly, they have parents who will spend money on them. Throw in antiquated conservative values about sex and violence in media which means even many adults shy away from such content, and you have the mainstream media landscape in a nutshell.
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maybe it's not just a shounen issue, but i do hate how they always feel the need for a breather episode or some sort of comic relief. the constant slapstick comedy in brotherhood almost ruined the entire anime for me. it's one of the best shounen titles out there, but i can only imagine how great it would have been otherwise

shounen doesn't have to stick out like a sore thumb, and as some people mentioned, there are series that camouflage themselves better than others
 
Aug 18, 3:08 PM

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Only gore and nudity are determining factors? Smh. In either case we still need something to make a better distinction between adult and young shows.

Terms and labels are important for categorization purposes.
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Aug 18, 3:10 PM

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Akame ga Kill would have been a good series if it handled its mature themes in an actual mature way.
 
Aug 18, 3:15 PM

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Can someone answer as to why shounen series are in theory necessarily inherently immature?

Admittedly maybe I haven't seen many shounens, but them lacking depth and weight is definitely not something I ever noticed.
 
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Yes, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood.

But that already exists. It's FMA (2003).
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keragamming said:
Kobayasan said:
Pretty much any shonen would be better if it was a seinen because seinen removes the boundaries and allows the author to be as graphic and cover as dark themes as he wants while shonen still needs to cater to younger audiences, they can try to be dark but there is a risk of editors not seeing it fit for a shonen and they would have to rewrite it


Not every magazine is like shounen jump you know, when the author for attack on titan publish his draft to shounen jump they wanted him to make various changes including making Eren a bit more happy like luffy for example, the author didn't want that plus they turn down his work for its bad art style and then he went to a new magazine and they gave him all the freedom he wants.

beminim said:
Most shounen is bad though. Even if some of them talked about darker themes, nothing can be good if it has bad writing.Middle aged men and women writing as if they were 13 year olds. We have reached amazing levels of cringe.


Not necessarily bad, you just grew out of the phase, they are aimed for mostly teenagers for a reason, so when you get older you can't relate, plus the themes most time are too childish, but again I wouldn't say they are bad.

I'm not really a fan of most shounen series myself because most of them stay in the same type of story telling and having the typical happy main character, that is why my hero felt average to me, because it doesn't have any interesting themes nor touch on anything that would make you second think things, I would have definitely enjoy series like my hero more 10 years ago.


TinyTempest said:
Literally every shounen would be ten times better if it was more mature


I'm not sure how much more mature snk can get, perhaps adding rape and full on sex scenes would be your definition of more mature?
I still enjoy One Piece even if the main character is happy go lucky. I cannot relate to him, but I definitely enjoy the story. Never picked up My hero, have seen some stuff and I definitely don't think it is for me.

While it is true that you can dislike something because you might not be in the age for it anymore, good writing can still let you enjoy things. I still watch some cartoons because they have interesting concepts or good writing.
 
Aug 18, 3:22 PM

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WatchTillTandava said:
Can someone answer as to why shounen series are in theory necessarily inherently immature?

Admittedly maybe I haven't seen many shounens, but them lacking depth and weight is definitely not something I ever noticed.


They are not inherently immature. I guess they are just more prone to be from what i seen.. I really don't want to come off as too harsh, because i am aware of their immense popularity.
 
Aug 18, 3:25 PM

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@beminim Perfectly understandable.
 
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