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#1
Aug 16, 1:43 PM

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Hundreds of extra euros per month will go to about 5,000 Holocaust survivors in Israel. More than 200,000 Holocaust survivors are still living in the country.

Germany will make extra payments to Holocaust survivors, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu announced on Thursday.

"The German government has just informed us that they will be giving a supplement to thousands of Holocaust survivors: Hundreds of euros per month. This is important. These people deserve it. I thank the German government," Netanyahu said on Twitter.

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-make-additional-payments-to-holocaust-survivors/a-50044472

Holocaust survivors are still alive?
 
#2
Aug 16, 2:10 PM

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The average life expectancy in Israel is 80.7 years for men and 84.6 years for women.

If you were born in 1935 you'd be 84 this year so it's hardly outside the realms of possibility that there would be still be holocaust survivors.
 
#3
Aug 16, 2:52 PM

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There actually has been studies in Holocaust survivers. They suspect extreme stress expanded their lifespand because they live longer than Jews that weren't part of the Holocaust if I recall right.
 
#4
Aug 16, 3:40 PM

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There will always be Holocaust survivors. Never forget the shoah.
 
#5
Aug 16, 3:42 PM

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This is ridiculous.

People need to leave the past in the past.
 
#6
Aug 17, 12:49 PM
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Seiya said:
This is ridiculous.

People need to leave the past in the past.

I agree with you. You should be able to do whatever you want to do because the second after you done it is in the past.
You must remember that in a conflict there are at least two opposing sides.
 
#7
Aug 17, 1:48 PM

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Seiya said:
This is ridiculous.

People need to leave the past in the past.
wow isn't that a suspicious post.
So voluntary payments to the people that were so horribly wronged on German soil as a way to assuage what can never be unmade.. that's somehow a bad thing?

Gotta give you credit for framing this in the least controversial way you could think of, but I don't think this is enough to fool people, Seiya.

I dare you to say that shit to the face of someone who survived. You should be ashamed of yourself, my friend. How do you even live with yourself?
Modified by Railey2, Aug 17, 2:15 PM
 
#8
Aug 17, 2:09 PM

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Yup, Holocaust survivors are still alive. I've met a few myself.

&++ good looks. he's right, these people do deserve it!
 
#9
Aug 17, 3:09 PM

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Railey2 said:
Seiya said:
This is ridiculous.

People need to leave the past in the past.
wow isn't that a suspicious post.
So voluntary payments to the people that were so horribly wronged on German soil as a way to assuage what can never be unmade.. that's somehow a bad thing?

Gotta give you credit for framing this in the least controversial way you could think of, but I don't think this is enough to fool people, Seiya.

I dare you to say that shit to the face of someone who survived. You should be ashamed of yourself, my friend. How do you even live with yourself?


WWII was ancient history. Why not put money towards a problem that still exists today?
 
Aug 17, 3:19 PM

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Starchaser said:
Yup, Holocaust survivors are still alive. I've met a few myself.

&++ good looks. he's right, these people do deserve it!


Where in Israel? anyway that's not good at all cuz we all know that money will be used to kill what is left of Palestine land.
 
Aug 17, 3:39 PM

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@BenRyan

Naw, it wasn't in Israel. I met some when I lived in Germany
 
Aug 17, 4:17 PM

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Ah, Germans. The greatest of shabbos goyim.
“Loddfafnir, listen to my counsel: You will fare well if you follow it, It will help you much if you heed it. If aware that another is wicked, say so: Make no truce or treaty with foes.” - Havamal 127
 
Aug 17, 5:03 PM

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Imagine being forced to pay for something you aren't responsible for. Soy should become illegal.
 
Aug 17, 7:11 PM

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Seriously, can't they stop already? It feels like the German government got this fetish of wanting the taxpayers to pay for some other group. For one there are those with unending preferential treatment, e.g. payments to holocaust survivors, while others, like the Polish people, get absolutely nothing (getting an about equal amount of land that Russia took from Poland in turn, suggested by a third party, can't be considered compensation for Poland since Poland's situation in terms of land size didn't change much). Then the German taxpayers are forced to pay for East Germany ("Soli") to "equalize" the West and East of Germany. Seriously, just stop it.
 
Aug 17, 7:13 PM
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thats not bad and its only 5000 people so its a small amount
 
Aug 17, 7:35 PM

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The good goyim will have no money left if they keep doing this.
 
Aug 17, 9:03 PM

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Seiya said:
This is ridiculous.

People need to leave the past in the past.


That's easy to say. However they have been scarred forever, most likely when they were still kids. A few hundred dollars per person for 5000 people are not that much for a first world country anyway.

These people deserve it plus it has a symbolic meaning.

 
Aug 17, 9:33 PM
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When is BBC making the payments 😉
 
Aug 17, 10:10 PM
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BenRyan said:
Starchaser said:
Yup, Holocaust survivors are still alive. I've met a few myself.

&++ good looks. he's right, these people do deserve it!



Where in Israel? anyway that's not good at all cuz we all know that money will be used to kill what is left of Palestine land.

Wtf.You really suggesting that the money going to Holocaust survivors is really going to (kill?) what is left of Palestine land.Not everything has to do with the Israel Palestine conflict.
Modified by MountainOfIrony, Aug 17, 10:13 PM
You must remember that in a conflict there are at least two opposing sides.
 
Aug 17, 10:14 PM

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How many ovens would have to be running to equal 6 million?
 
Aug 17, 10:15 PM

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Good like I care give them all the extra funds. You couldn't pay those guys off enough.
 
Aug 17, 11:19 PM

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Germany needs to chill out. We get it, you're really sorry about the holocaust. Nobody associates modern day Germany with Nazi Germany. WW2 happened almost a century ago and really holds no relevancy anymore. You don't need to keep whipping yourself over it.
 
Aug 17, 11:28 PM
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Gan_water said:
You couldn't pay those guys off enough.

Why not? Do you think that the Jews worship money?
You must remember that in a conflict there are at least two opposing sides.
 
Aug 17, 11:30 PM

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MountainOfIrony said:
Gan_water said:
You couldn't pay those guys off enough.

Why not?

Because sometimes, you just don't know what else to spend it on.

Do you think that the Jews worship money?


No they worship the G O D lol
 
Aug 17, 11:38 PM
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They can always save the money or spend it on themselves.
Gan_water said:

Because sometimes, you just don't know what else to spend it on.
You must remember that in a conflict there are at least two opposing sides.
 
Aug 18, 5:47 AM

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149597871 said:
Seiya said:
This is ridiculous.

People need to leave the past in the past.


That's easy to say. However they have been scarred forever, most likely when they were still kids. A few hundred dollars per person for 5000 people are not that much for a first world country anyway.

These people deserve it plus it has a symbolic meaning.



If that's the case, I guess that every British citizen who lived through Winston Churchill's rule should get paid money too.

I don't care what someone has gone through in the past. Nobody should get more than another.
 
Aug 18, 5:53 AM

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Seiya said:
Railey2 said:
wow isn't that a suspicious post.
So voluntary payments to the people that were so horribly wronged on German soil as a way to assuage what can never be unmade.. that's somehow a bad thing?

Gotta give you credit for framing this in the least controversial way you could think of, but I don't think this is enough to fool people, Seiya.

I dare you to say that shit to the face of someone who survived. You should be ashamed of yourself, my friend. How do you even live with yourself?


WWII was ancient history. Why not put money towards a problem that still exists today?


How can you possibly call it ancient history when there are literally people who survived it alive right now? Some very strange logic imo. Heres a problem that exists today: some people still have very traumatic memories of when them and all their loved ones were systematically murdered and tortured by the German government. That's their lives. Not history.
come with me empty human
 
Aug 18, 5:55 AM

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simonephone said:
Seiya said:


WWII was ancient history. Why not put money towards a problem that still exists today?


How can you possibly call it ancient history when there are literally people who survived it alive right now? Some very strange logic imo.


There's still lots of people living who survived Mao's "Great Leap Forward," Stalin and Pol Pot, all of which are in even more recent history, but you don't hear them whining about it anymore. Those countries learned to leave the past in the past.
 
Aug 18, 5:58 AM

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Seiya said:
simonephone said:


How can you possibly call it ancient history when there are literally people who survived it alive right now? Some very strange logic imo.


There's still lots of people living who survived Mao's "Great Leap Forward," Stalin and Pol Pot, all of which are in even more recent history, but you don't hear them whining about it anymore. Those countries learned to leave the past in the past.


Being upset that your loved ones were all murdered by the government is whining? What?

And also, um yes you do? If you give a shit enough to listen of course people are still upset about stalin and pol pot. The German government has just been a lot better than the Russian or Cambodian government at addressing this.
come with me empty human
 
Aug 18, 6:02 AM

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simonephone said:
Seiya said:


There's still lots of people living who survived Mao's "Great Leap Forward," Stalin and Pol Pot, all of which are in even more recent history, but you don't hear them whining about it anymore. Those countries learned to leave the past in the past.


Being upset that your loved ones were all murdered by the government is whining? What?

And also, um yes you do? If you give a shit enough to listen of course people are still upset about stalin and pol pot. The German government has just been a lot better than the Russian or Cambodian government at addressing this.


Well, that's your opinion.

This conversation is over.
 
Aug 18, 6:13 AM

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Seiya said:
simonephone said:


Being upset that your loved ones were all murdered by the government is whining? What?

And also, um yes you do? If you give a shit enough to listen of course people are still upset about stalin and pol pot. The German government has just been a lot better than the Russian or Cambodian government at addressing this.


Well, that's your opinion.

This conversation is over.


I wonder what could constitute as a "real problem" in the mind of seiya? Could it be... gasp, a problem that effects HIM? Do you give a shit about anything at all that doesn't effect you personally?

But, I'm sure you have some very serious concerns yourself that surely take precedence. Maybe the german government should send all their money to seiya since clearly hes dealing with issues far more serious than genocide, carry on brave hero.
come with me empty human
 
Aug 18, 7:39 AM

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Seiya said:
149597871 said:


That's easy to say. However they have been scarred forever, most likely when they were still kids. A few hundred dollars per person for 5000 people are not that much for a first world country anyway.

These people deserve it plus it has a symbolic meaning.



If that's the case, I guess that every British citizen who lived through Winston Churchill's rule should get paid money too.

I don't care what someone has gone through in the past. Nobody should get more than another.


What a straw man.

So someone who has been physically and mentally scarred for life when he or she was still a child shouldn't get anything because you don't care about the past and what people have gone through? Isn't that kinda similar to the situation you are in? Following your own logic nobody should care about you either and you should be left to your fate because "nobody should get more than another".

The difference is that you were lucky enough to be born in a country like Canada in the best time to be alive in history while others happened to be born in Europe in the first half of the 20th century... in a Jewish family.
Modified by 149597871, Aug 18, 7:43 AM
 
Aug 18, 7:54 AM

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Imagine being angry that the German government is giving a little bit of extra help to a small number of people who lived through one of the worst tragedies of all time (at the hands of the German government). It says a lot about your politics and morals, or lack thereof...
LoneWolf said:
@Josh - Makes me sad to call myself Canadian.
 
Aug 18, 7:57 AM

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German-Israeli relations were at its lowest since German politicans hate Beni's conservative government and Germany funds some 'not so friendly' Pro-Palestinian organisations. Here they just throw some money at the problem to increase diplomatic relationships. I guess they hope to deal some more weapons to Israel since they already account for almost one third of of their military imports.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-named-worlds-8th-largest-arms-exporter/
 
Aug 18, 1:39 PM

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Pretty soon there will be Holocaust survivors born in 1946 who will be saying that 40 million Jews died.
 
Aug 18, 3:08 PM
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Seygneur said:
German-Israeli relations were at its lowest since German politicans hate Beni's conservative government and Germany funds some 'not so friendly' Pro-Palestinian organisations. Here they just throw some money at the problem to increase diplomatic relationships. I guess they hope to deal some more weapons to Israel since they already account for almost one third of of their military imports.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-named-worlds-8th-largest-arms-exporter/
Damn german weapons are so shitty these days. They're honestly fucking Isreal lol
 
Aug 18, 3:33 PM

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It's rubbish. It reminds me of prosecuting 95 year-old former SS officers and camp guards, the spectacle of hauling them into courtrooms with their wheeelchairs and oxygen tanks.

The cold hard facts are that the German government and armed forces did brutalize civilians with the ethnic killings in Germany and across Europe, but people get mad and are turned off by this because it's very selective. Are Jews the only class of victims? Today they have an ethnostate on formerly Arab territory that is at the cutting-edge economically GDP-wise for its size, with a high-tech air force and military technology, and connected to the diaspora in New York City, London, Paris, and internationally all over with billions of dollars in lobbying influence and diplomatic capital. So, if you're going to think their former persecuted are the only victim class, then you may as well start shelling out payments to all the people in the global-south and developing world who've had their whole countries wrecked and overturned in the past century, starting with Palestine on down.

Every country in human history has oppressed others and been oppressed itself at some point. Compile a list of every successor state (or in some countries, that same state is still in power actually) and what they owe and figure out the balance sheet. Prospective reparations for descendants of black African slaves in the U.S. are another controversy. Alright, then the Turks and descendants of all those Jewish merchant families who helped them should start injecting aid packages into the annual budget of the destitute southeastern European countries for trafficking Ukrainian and Bulgarian sex slave girls across the Barbary coast (North Africa) for centuries. It will never be fair and always selective and politicized as to who's allowed to remain a victim and who's told to suck it up and be ignored, who's made a scapegoat and who's silently exonerated.

And no one should deny the German military atrocities, but the only reason they're still made the big bad is because they did to people who were perceived as white enough Europeans what those same Europeans did to brown people for 500 years without a second thought.
Modified by WatchTillTandava, Aug 18, 3:40 PM
 
Aug 18, 5:46 PM

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How much apologizing is too much?
"If you died, would anyone care? Would they really care? Maybe, they'd cry for a day. But, let's be honest no one would give a shit. They wouldn't. The few people that would feel obligated to go to your funeral would probably be annoyed and leave as early as possible. That's who you are. That's what you are. You are nothing to anyone. To everyone."
-Mr. Robot

"I can take another name, and build a new life.. But on the inside I'll always have that instinct, no matter how much I hate it. I'm yakuza through and through. Guile only gets you so far in this game. Remember that. You won't get another chance."
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Aug 18, 6:00 PM

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Josh said:
Imagine being angry that the German government is giving a little bit of extra help to a small number of people who lived through one of the worst tragedies of all time (at the hands of the German government). It says a lot about your politics and morals, or lack thereof...

You mean like how the current German taxpayers have to not only pay for these sins that they didn't commit themselves, but ALSO for the pensions of the actual guilty parties? Bonus points if the taxpayer in question is an immigrant from Poland.
 
Aug 18, 6:22 PM

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simonephone said:
Seiya said:


WWII was ancient history. Why not put money towards a problem that still exists today?


How can you possibly call it ancient history when there are literally people who survived it alive right now? Some very strange logic imo. Heres a problem that exists today: some people still have very traumatic memories of when them and all their loved ones were systematically murdered and tortured by the German government. That's their lives. Not history.


Because the world is changing extremely rapidly these days. Its almost like we're passing through a completely different era every two decades now. Think about it this way.

In 1999, there were no smartphones, the internet barely existed, robots and virtual reality were only a sci-fi concept, Dubai was basically a desert with a few buildings scattered around, China was technologically living in the 1960s, hardly anyone knew what Al-Qaeda was, marijuana (including medical marijuana) was illegal everywhere except the Netherlands, the issue of gay marriage was still very controversial and politicians considered it political suicide to support it whereas now its political suicide not to support it.

The world has changed extremely dramatically from just twenty years ago. However, the world in 1945? It was like a completely different world. In 1945...

Racism was prevalent all over the world, black people were still getting lynched in the south, there was no air conditioning or heating in most homes, many people all over the world still slept on dirt floors (including many in Europe and America), many homes had no electricity, many homes had no television, even in the US and Europe, many homes around the world had no running water or toilets inside and people still used outhouses to go to the bathroom, the life expectancy for US men in 1940 was 62 years old which is 14 years less than the life expectancy today and that's despite the US having one of the highest life expectancy of any country during the 1940s. Graduating high school in 1940 was better than graduating college today with a Bachelors degree and you could get almost any job you wanted with a high school diploma. You could actually drop out of school in third grade if you wanted to in the 1940s. In France, execution through getting beheaded in public by a guillotine was still possible. France actually had their last public beheading in 1939 (legit with a crowd of people standing around and watching) and the last person beheaded in general was in 1977.

I'm a history major, I love studying history. One of the biggest things history has taught me, is that people who use the past to make arguments about things going on today simply have no idea what they are talking about. Most people can't even imagine the shocking amount of differences in lifestyle and values, including moral values, that people in the past had. What would particularly shock people is the level of disregard people in the past had for human life and just how recently we started actually valuing human life the way we do today. As I mentioned, the last public beheading in France was in 1939 and these days, the idea of chopping somebody's head off in front of a crowd of people in a developed, first world country would be absolutely outrageous. Not only was there a public execution but apparently the crowd was very rowdy, using handkerchiefs to take the guy's blood as souvenirs, and taking photos of the decapitated body. The officials considered the crowd's behavior so disgusting that they didn't have anymore public executions because they realized that they were doing nothing but appealing to people's sadism. That kind of thing only happens in extremely backward countries today.

How on Earth can we still hold Germany accountable for their actions, during a time when European nations were literally still beheading people in public? We live in an entirely different world now, so there's no reason to continue holding Germany accountable for what a previous government did in a completely different world and society.
Modified by Ryuk9428, Aug 18, 6:37 PM
 
Aug 18, 6:42 PM

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Ryuk9428 said:
simonephone said:


How can you possibly call it ancient history when there are literally people who survived it alive right now? Some very strange logic imo. Heres a problem that exists today: some people still have very traumatic memories of when them and all their loved ones were systematically murdered and tortured by the German government. That's their lives. Not history.


Because the world is changing extremely rapidly these days. Its almost like we're passing through a completely different era every two decades now. Think about it this way.

In 1999, there were no smartphones, the internet barely existed, robots and virtual reality were only a sci-fi concept, Dubai was basically a desert with a few buildings scattered around, China was technologically living in the 1960s, hardly anyone knew what Al-Qaeda was, marijuana (including medical marijuana) was illegal everywhere except the Netherlands, the issue of gay marriage was still very controversial and politicians considered it political suicide to support it whereas now its political suicide not to support it.

The world has changed extremely dramatically from just twenty years ago. However, the world in 1945? It was like a completely different world. In 1945...

Racism was prevalent all over the world, black people were still getting lynched in the south, there was no air conditioning or heating in most homes, many people all over the world still slept on dirt floors (including many in Europe and America), many homes had no electricity, many homes had no television, even in the US and Europe, many homes around the world had no running water or toilets inside and people still used outhouses to go to the bathroom, the life expectancy for US men in 1940 was 62 years old which is 14 years less than the life expectancy today and that's despite the US having one of the highest life expectancy of any country during the 1940s. Graduating high school in 1940 was better than graduating college today with a Bachelors degree and you could get almost any job you wanted with a high school diploma. You could actually drop out of school in third grade if you wanted to in the 1940s. In France, execution through getting beheaded in public by a guillotine was still possible. France actually had their last public beheading in 1939 (legit with a crowd of people standing around and watching) and the last person beheaded in general was in 1977.

I'm a history major, I love studying history. One of the biggest things history has taught me, is that people who use the past to make arguments about things going on today simply have no idea what they are talking about. Most people can't even imagine the shocking amount of differences in lifestyle and values, including moral values, that people in the past had. What would particularly shock people is the level of disregard people in the past had for human life and just how recently we started actually valuing human life the way we do today. As I mentioned, the last public beheading in France was in 1939 and these days, the idea of chopping somebody's head off in front of a crowd of people in a developed, first world country would be absolutely outrageous. That kind of thing only happens in extremely backward countries today.

How on Earth can we still hold Germany accountable for their actions, during a time when European nations were literally still beheading people in public? We live in an entirely different world now, so there's no reason to continue holding Germany accountable for what a previous government did in a completely different world and society.


Hmm this is probably similar to what I dislike generally about Vinland Saga though I've only seen the first four episodes. It was the age of vikings where killing was a necessity, a way of life and then there's this one high level viking though he really just feels like a samurai in a viking outfit who espouses pacifism. It's like a world leader today saying everyone should give up technology and go back to a pre-computer or pre-internet time. So much of life in the past two decades have revolved around it. Crazy. We don't really see how he got to this point besides the generic "killing breeds more killing" argument. It's immersion breaking.

But as for your point about Germany, I'm pretty sure genocide was considered wrong in the 20th century. You're acting like the 20th century was five centuries ago or something. Sure there were a lot of societal and technological developments but the average person in Europe or the US wasn't murderous or cool with murder, especially on such a wide scale. Really seems like reaching but I could be wrong.

Oh and I'm sorry for that angry rant some months ago. It went overboard and was embarrassing after I re-read it with a cooler head. Please accept my apology.
Modified by HungryForQuality, Aug 18, 6:47 PM

 
Aug 18, 7:57 PM

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HungryForQuality said:
Ryuk9428 said:


Because the world is changing extremely rapidly these days. Its almost like we're passing through a completely different era every two decades now. Think about it this way.

In 1999, there were no smartphones, the internet barely existed, robots and virtual reality were only a sci-fi concept, Dubai was basically a desert with a few buildings scattered around, China was technologically living in the 1960s, hardly anyone knew what Al-Qaeda was, marijuana (including medical marijuana) was illegal everywhere except the Netherlands, the issue of gay marriage was still very controversial and politicians considered it political suicide to support it whereas now its political suicide not to support it.

The world has changed extremely dramatically from just twenty years ago. However, the world in 1945? It was like a completely different world. In 1945...

Racism was prevalent all over the world, black people were still getting lynched in the south, there was no air conditioning or heating in most homes, many people all over the world still slept on dirt floors (including many in Europe and America), many homes had no electricity, many homes had no television, even in the US and Europe, many homes around the world had no running water or toilets inside and people still used outhouses to go to the bathroom, the life expectancy for US men in 1940 was 62 years old which is 14 years less than the life expectancy today and that's despite the US having one of the highest life expectancy of any country during the 1940s. Graduating high school in 1940 was better than graduating college today with a Bachelors degree and you could get almost any job you wanted with a high school diploma. You could actually drop out of school in third grade if you wanted to in the 1940s. In France, execution through getting beheaded in public by a guillotine was still possible. France actually had their last public beheading in 1939 (legit with a crowd of people standing around and watching) and the last person beheaded in general was in 1977.

I'm a history major, I love studying history. One of the biggest things history has taught me, is that people who use the past to make arguments about things going on today simply have no idea what they are talking about. Most people can't even imagine the shocking amount of differences in lifestyle and values, including moral values, that people in the past had. What would particularly shock people is the level of disregard people in the past had for human life and just how recently we started actually valuing human life the way we do today. As I mentioned, the last public beheading in France was in 1939 and these days, the idea of chopping somebody's head off in front of a crowd of people in a developed, first world country would be absolutely outrageous. That kind of thing only happens in extremely backward countries today.

How on Earth can we still hold Germany accountable for their actions, during a time when European nations were literally still beheading people in public? We live in an entirely different world now, so there's no reason to continue holding Germany accountable for what a previous government did in a completely different world and society.


Hmm this is probably similar to what I dislike generally about Vinland Saga though I've only seen the first four episodes. It was the age of vikings where killing was a necessity, a way of life and then there's this one high level viking though he really just feels like a samurai in a viking outfit who espouses pacifism. It's like a world leader today saying everyone should give up technology and go back to a pre-computer or pre-internet time. So much of life in the past two decades have revolved around it. Crazy. We don't really see how he got to this point besides the generic "killing breeds more killing" argument. It's immersion breaking.

But as for your point about Germany, I'm pretty sure genocide was considered wrong in the 20th century. You're acting like the 20th century was five centuries ago or something. Sure there were a lot of societal and technological developments but the average person in Europe or the US wasn't murderous or cool with murder, especially on such a wide scale. Really seems like reaching but I could be wrong.

Oh and I'm sorry for that angry rant some months ago. It went overboard and was embarrassing after I re-read it with a cooler head. Please accept my apology.


That's okay, I accept your apology.

Yeah, genocide was considered very bad. No doubt about it, Nazi Germany's atrocities were heinous on an abnormal scale. And yeah, people weren't okay with you just murdering people. However, when you say I make it sound like the 1940s were five centuries ago. The 1940s weren't nearly as far from most people's conception of five centuries ago as people think. They did not have "essentially modern moral values" so to speak. The level of rapid moral progression on a global scale that occurred after WW2 was amazing. We've made about the same level of progress, in terms of ethical behavior, in the last 70 years as we had in all 5,000 years of human civilization before WW2. Before WW2, moral progress was very slow and even took steps backwards at various points.

Very little talk about this, but the leader of China during WW2 ordered his own dam to be released in order to stall the Japanese troops which resulted in hundreds of thousands of Chinese civilians getting drowned. You basically never hear about this in the list of WW2 atrocities. To be fair, this is probably because it looks very tame compared to the stuff Germany, Japan, and Russia was doing so it got overlooked but its still killing your own people on a scale that's unthinkable today.

Its also worth noting that, Medieval times may have been further in the past, but numerous different governments in the era between 1600-1950 racked up body counts that pretty much nobody except for the Mongols and Tamerlane did between the years of 1,000-1,600. I know there was more people, but we wouldn't excuse dictators slaughtering more people today under the idea that there's more people around so its more okay. Its also worth noting that previous to the year 1,000, many kings did manage to rack up body counts that were similar to or exceeded the body counts of what the worst regimes in the 1600-1950 era did. Take China in the 8th century for example. The emperors ruling China in the 8th century make Hitler look tame. Somewhere between 14-40 million Chinese civilians slaughtered in a matter of seven years (look up "An Lushan Rebellion"). This reflected nearly a sixth of the entire world's population getting killed. I mean its just astonishing that this was even possible. So before we start saying that the Medieval kings couldn't do it because of population limitations, just remember that several Ancient kings actually managed to surpass the death tolls of famous industrial age dictators with a much lower population so if kings during the high Medieval era were inclined to do so, they definitely could have done it.

I agree with you about historical animes and shows in general needing to show the brutality of the past more. Often times, they show people in the past as having slightly different but mostly modern morals when often, their morals were wildly different. During Ancient times and the Dark Ages was a time when people got tortured to death in public, burned at stake, where slaughtering fighting age males in conquered cities was pretty much standard warfare procedure, and the homicide rate of the world was terrifyingly high compared to today. But in so many historical shows, they have numerous characters who are either pacifists or have morals that are like a modern person's and it kills the immersion for me.

Portrayals of Ancient Warfare should be horrifying. War was a living nightmare, a horror story in real life. Why so many shows shy away from this, I don't know.
 
Aug 18, 8:09 PM

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Grey-Zone said:
Josh said:
Imagine being angry that the German government is giving a little bit of extra help to a small number of people who lived through one of the worst tragedies of all time (at the hands of the German government). It says a lot about your politics and morals, or lack thereof...
You mean like how the current German taxpayers have to not only pay for these sins that they didn't commit themselves, but ALSO for the pensions of the actual guilty parties? Bonus points if the taxpayer in question is an immigrant from Poland.
Nope. I completely reject the framing of citizens as "taxpayers", with all the implications about how states should be run like a business — minimizing costs, maximizing short term taxpayer/shareholder value, only taking direction from those with shares (those who pay taxes) and in proportion to the number of shares they hold, etc. I think that framing is self-serving and misanthropic in the usual libertarian way.

In Germany's case, as in most cases, the state is an all-encompassing institution (dealing with cultural, economic, legal, military and other matters) that has developed over many generations. It's very far from being like a business. The state is representative of the past and future of Germany as a nation and Germans as a people, so it's appropriate for the state to take a wider view of things and to inherit all of Germany's history — the goods, the bads, debts and debts owed.

(Obviously the liabilities shouldn't be seen as arbitrary or unlimited. Who owes what to who is always up for debate, but it's an important debate to have if we care about justice/living ethically.)
LoneWolf said:
@Josh - Makes me sad to call myself Canadian.
 
Aug 18, 8:16 PM

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Ryuk9428 said:
HungryForQuality said:


Hmm this is probably similar to what I dislike generally about Vinland Saga though I've only seen the first four episodes. It was the age of vikings where killing was a necessity, a way of life and then there's this one high level viking though he really just feels like a samurai in a viking outfit who espouses pacifism. It's like a world leader today saying everyone should give up technology and go back to a pre-computer or pre-internet time. So much of life in the past two decades have revolved around it. Crazy. We don't really see how he got to this point besides the generic "killing breeds more killing" argument. It's immersion breaking.

But as for your point about Germany, I'm pretty sure genocide was considered wrong in the 20th century. You're acting like the 20th century was five centuries ago or something. Sure there were a lot of societal and technological developments but the average person in Europe or the US wasn't murderous or cool with murder, especially on such a wide scale. Really seems like reaching but I could be wrong.

Oh and I'm sorry for that angry rant some months ago. It went overboard and was embarrassing after I re-read it with a cooler head. Please accept my apology.


That's okay, I accept your apology.

Yeah, genocide was considered very bad. No doubt about it, Nazi Germany's atrocities were heinous on an abnormal scale. And yeah, people weren't okay with you just murdering people. However, when you say I make it sound like the 1940s were five centuries ago. The 1940s weren't nearly as far from most people's conception of five centuries ago as people think. They did not have "essentially modern moral values" so to speak. The level of rapid moral progression on a global scale that occurred after WW2 was amazing. We've made about the same level of progress, in terms of ethical behavior, in the last 70 years as we had in all 5,000 years of human civilization before WW2. Before WW2, moral progress was very slow and even took steps backwards at various points.

Very little talk about this, but the leader of China during WW2 ordered his own dam to be released in order to stall the Japanese troops which resulted in hundreds of thousands of Chinese civilians getting drowned. You basically never hear about this in the list of WW2 atrocities. To be fair, this is probably because it looks very tame compared to the stuff Germany, Japan, and Russia was doing so it got overlooked but its still killing your own people on a scale that's unthinkable today.

Its also worth noting that, Medieval times may have been further in the past, but numerous different governments in the era between 1600-1950 racked up body counts that pretty much nobody except for the Mongols and Tamerlane did between the years of 1,000-1,600. I know there was more people, but we wouldn't excuse dictators slaughtering more people today under the idea that there's more people around so its more okay. Its also worth noting that previous to the year 1,000, many kings did manage to rack up body counts that were similar to or exceeded the body counts of what the worst regimes in the 1600-1950 era did. Take China in the 8th century for example. The emperors ruling China in the 8th century make Hitler look tame. Somewhere between 14-40 million Chinese civilians slaughtered in a matter of seven years (look up "An Lushan Rebellion"). This reflected nearly a sixth of the entire world's population getting killed. I mean its just astonishing that this was even possible. So before we start saying that the Medieval kings couldn't do it because of population limitations, just remember that several Ancient kings actually managed to surpass the death tolls of famous industrial age dictators with a much lower population so if kings during the high Medieval era were inclined to do so, they definitely could have done it.

I agree with you about historical animes and shows in general needing to show the brutality of the past more. Often times, they show people in the past as having slightly different but mostly modern morals when often, their morals were wildly different. During Ancient times and the Dark Ages was a time when people got tortured to death in public, burned at stake, where slaughtering fighting age males in conquered cities was pretty much standard warfare procedure, and the homicide rate of the world was terrifyingly high compared to today. But in so many historical shows, they have numerous characters who are either pacifists or have morals that are like a modern person's and it kills the immersion for me.

Portrayals of Ancient Warfare should be horrifying. War was a living nightmare, a horror story in real life. Why so many shows shy away from this, I don't know.


Yeah I agree with you that people downplay the consistent murderous streak of various dynasties and governments especially between 1000-1500. But by comparing it to Hitler's genocide and muddying the well (essentially normalizing it because it's commonplace throughout history), are you feeding into relativism?

At what point does that end? Should every act of mass violence not have a particularly outraged response because mass violence in general was incredibly commonplace throughout history? How do you balance the line between establishing perspective and context regarding mass violence without showing disregard for human life through a detached eagle's eye statistical approach? Is there a need to balance that line? Is tact and specific empathy a must or is it missing the bigger picture? Even if it is missing the bigger picture, should humans still show said tact and empathy just because it's part of being human?

I'm wondering how people who view human history and struggles through a macroscopic lens view empathy for people in specific tragedies. Are they annoyed because the bigger picture is being missed? Are they resigned because they know that individual human life must be put on a pedestal for the human race to function despite knowing the futility of it all when looking at things from such a large scope? Weird stuff really. I know it sounds like rambling but it interests me. I never thought I would have given a single shit about any of this 5 years ago. But I guess I got a lot of time on my hands.

 
Aug 18, 8:17 PM

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Josh said:
The state is representative of the past and future of Germany as a nation and Germans as a people, so it's appropriate for the state to take a wider view of things and to inherit all of Germany's history — the goods, the bads, debts and debts owed.


This is the part that we're objecting to. I don't think that Germany is obligated anymore to "inherit their history."
 
Aug 18, 8:22 PM

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HungryForQuality said:
Ryuk9428 said:


That's okay, I accept your apology.

Yeah, genocide was considered very bad. No doubt about it, Nazi Germany's atrocities were heinous on an abnormal scale. And yeah, people weren't okay with you just murdering people. However, when you say I make it sound like the 1940s were five centuries ago. The 1940s weren't nearly as far from most people's conception of five centuries ago as people think. They did not have "essentially modern moral values" so to speak. The level of rapid moral progression on a global scale that occurred after WW2 was amazing. We've made about the same level of progress, in terms of ethical behavior, in the last 70 years as we had in all 5,000 years of human civilization before WW2. Before WW2, moral progress was very slow and even took steps backwards at various points.

Very little talk about this, but the leader of China during WW2 ordered his own dam to be released in order to stall the Japanese troops which resulted in hundreds of thousands of Chinese civilians getting drowned. You basically never hear about this in the list of WW2 atrocities. To be fair, this is probably because it looks very tame compared to the stuff Germany, Japan, and Russia was doing so it got overlooked but its still killing your own people on a scale that's unthinkable today.

Its also worth noting that, Medieval times may have been further in the past, but numerous different governments in the era between 1600-1950 racked up body counts that pretty much nobody except for the Mongols and Tamerlane did between the years of 1,000-1,600. I know there was more people, but we wouldn't excuse dictators slaughtering more people today under the idea that there's more people around so its more okay. Its also worth noting that previous to the year 1,000, many kings did manage to rack up body counts that were similar to or exceeded the body counts of what the worst regimes in the 1600-1950 era did. Take China in the 8th century for example. The emperors ruling China in the 8th century make Hitler look tame. Somewhere between 14-40 million Chinese civilians slaughtered in a matter of seven years (look up "An Lushan Rebellion"). This reflected nearly a sixth of the entire world's population getting killed. I mean its just astonishing that this was even possible. So before we start saying that the Medieval kings couldn't do it because of population limitations, just remember that several Ancient kings actually managed to surpass the death tolls of famous industrial age dictators with a much lower population so if kings during the high Medieval era were inclined to do so, they definitely could have done it.

I agree with you about historical animes and shows in general needing to show the brutality of the past more. Often times, they show people in the past as having slightly different but mostly modern morals when often, their morals were wildly different. During Ancient times and the Dark Ages was a time when people got tortured to death in public, burned at stake, where slaughtering fighting age males in conquered cities was pretty much standard warfare procedure, and the homicide rate of the world was terrifyingly high compared to today. But in so many historical shows, they have numerous characters who are either pacifists or have morals that are like a modern person's and it kills the immersion for me.

Portrayals of Ancient Warfare should be horrifying. War was a living nightmare, a horror story in real life. Why so many shows shy away from this, I don't know.


Yeah I agree with you that people downplay the consistent murderous streak of various dynasties and governments especially between 1000-1500. But by comparing it to Hitler's genocide and muddying the well (essentially normalizing it because it's commonplace throughout history), are you feeding into relativism?

At what point does that end? Should every act of mass violence not have a particularly outraged response because mass violence in general was incredibly commonplace throughout history? How do you balance the line between establishing perspective and context regarding mass violence without showing disregard for human life through a detached eagle's eye statistical approach? Is there a need to balance that line? Is tact and specific empathy a must or is it missing the bigger picture? Even if it is missing the bigger picture, should humans still show said tact and empathy just because it's part of being human?

I'm wondering how people who view human history and struggles through a macroscopic lens view empathy for people in specific tragedies. Are they annoyed because the bigger picture is being missed? Are they resigned because they know that individual human life must be put on a pedestal for the human race to function despite knowing the futility of it all when looking at things from such a large scope? Weird stuff really. I know it sounds like rambling but it interests me. I never thought I would have given a single shit about any of this 5 years ago. But I guess I got a lot of time on my hands.


Actually my point was that governments in the years 1,000-1,500 were milder compared to governments before and after those years. The An Lushan Rebellion occurred in 755-763 CE.

Mass murder that is currently going on should have a very outraged response. Because we can currently do something about it. If Syria's government is gassing children then we can do something to stop that. However, there's not really any point in continuing to be outraged over things that happened way in the past because there's nothing that can be done about it anymore and often those events occurred under a very different context from today. The best we can do is learn from those events and where people at the time went wrong so we can prevent them from happening in the future.
Modified by Ryuk9428, Aug 18, 8:27 PM
 
Aug 18, 8:31 PM
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Good good, now give more money to Poland!
 
Aug 18, 8:53 PM

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Ryuk9428 said:
HungryForQuality said:


Yeah I agree with you that people downplay the consistent murderous streak of various dynasties and governments especially between 1000-1500. But by comparing it to Hitler's genocide and muddying the well (essentially normalizing it because it's commonplace throughout history), are you feeding into relativism?

At what point does that end? Should every act of mass violence not have a particularly outraged response because mass violence in general was incredibly commonplace throughout history? How do you balance the line between establishing perspective and context regarding mass violence without showing disregard for human life through a detached eagle's eye statistical approach? Is there a need to balance that line? Is tact and specific empathy a must or is it missing the bigger picture? Even if it is missing the bigger picture, should humans still show said tact and empathy just because it's part of being human?

I'm wondering how people who view human history and struggles through a macroscopic lens view empathy for people in specific tragedies. Are they annoyed because the bigger picture is being missed? Are they resigned because they know that individual human life must be put on a pedestal for the human race to function despite knowing the futility of it all when looking at things from such a large scope? Weird stuff really. I know it sounds like rambling but it interests me. I never thought I would have given a single shit about any of this 5 years ago. But I guess I got a lot of time on my hands.


Actually my point was that governments in the years 1,000-1,500 were milder compared to governments before and after those years.

Mass murder that is currently going on should have a very outraged response. Because we can currently do something about it. If Syria's government is gassing children then we can do something to stop that. However, there's not really any point in continuing to be outraged over things that happened way in the past because there's nothing that can be done about it anymore and often those events occurred under a very different context from today. The best we can do is learn from those events and where people at the time went wrong so we can prevent them from happening in the future.


Oh I meant to type "except" instead of "especially". Honest error.

Oh so what you're proposing is that we evolve our views on murder and the like over time in order to better address atrocities as time goes on. Basically learn from history and prevent future deaths instead of lamenting over past ones? That makes sense but don't you have to wait until the holocaust survivors die. I mean yeah the holocaust happened 70 years ago but the ones who are still living are still in present day. They shouldn't be ignored for what happened to them because it happened 70 years ago even if the context was different.

Yeah it seems like an interesting way to view things though. Thanks for the talk.


 
Aug 18, 9:15 PM

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Learn something from Germany, Japan.
My Wife is a Demon Queen
 
Aug 18, 9:18 PM

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HungryForQuality said:
Ryuk9428 said:


Actually my point was that governments in the years 1,000-1,500 were milder compared to governments before and after those years.

Mass murder that is currently going on should have a very outraged response. Because we can currently do something about it. If Syria's government is gassing children then we can do something to stop that. However, there's not really any point in continuing to be outraged over things that happened way in the past because there's nothing that can be done about it anymore and often those events occurred under a very different context from today. The best we can do is learn from those events and where people at the time went wrong so we can prevent them from happening in the future.


Oh I meant to type "except" instead of "especially". Honest error.

Oh so what you're proposing is that we evolve our views on murder and the like over time in order to better address atrocities as time goes on. Basically learn from history and prevent future deaths instead of lamenting over past ones? That makes sense but don't you have to wait until the holocaust survivors die. I mean yeah the holocaust happened 70 years ago but the ones who are still living are still in present day. They shouldn't be ignored for what happened to them because it happened 70 years ago even if the context was different.

Yeah it seems like an interesting way to view things though. Thanks for the talk.



Pretty much that's my view. I also think that lamenting over the past too much results in a sort of nation-wide grudge against people. Korea and China for example still hold a massive grudge against Japan over what happened in WW2 and this grudge is not healthy, especially given how much Japan has changed since WW2. Its not fair to continue holding countries accountable over things that happened so long ago and that nobody today had anything to do with. Like one person mentioned, it seems silly to be rolling former, 90 something year old German guards who may or may not have dementia in their wheelchairs to face justice. If that was going to happen it should've happened right after WW2 during the Nuremberg trials. At this point though its just ridiculous to be prosecuting people in a wheelchair and reeks of people who just want to pat themselves on the back and say they "punished a war criminal" when they really did nothing to further humanity as a whole.

Survivors of the atrocities in WW2, committed by both Germany and Japan, have been compensated a lot already. They've been given money, personally apologized to by politicians from each respective country, and have received memorials from NGO organizations. Germany and Japan have done enough to show the world that they are sorry about what happened in WW2, there's no need for them to continue self-flagellating over it.
 
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