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What do gay people think about BL/Yaoi anime and manga and the portrayal of gay people and homosexual relationships in them?

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#1
Jul 10, 1:44 PM
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How do gay people feel about these series that are, I am guessing, targeted at a female audience? For eg. Sekaiichi Hatskoi and Junjou Romantica? Do they like them, dislike them, find them entertaining or cringeworthy? What aspects are right and wrong, realistic or misrepresented, etc.

 
#2
Jul 10, 1:58 PM
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Speaking for myself. I don't like Yaoi. Yaoi is not a realistic depiction of male homosexual relationships and indirectly reinforces sterotypes and preconceived ideas about homosexual men. Also, it objectifies homosexual men. Yaoi portrays ideal heterosexual love relationships with all its cliches. You have a masculine partner called "Seme" who is almost like a superhero always saving its partner. Then you have the "Uke" character who is typically extremely girly and defenseless who needs a strong Seme and that's it. There's nothing more attached to it.
 
#3
Jul 10, 2:12 PM

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Ryougine said:
Speaking for myself. I don't like Yaoi. Yaoi is not a realistic depiction of male homosexual relationships and indirectly reinforces sterotypes and preconceived ideas about homosexual men. Also, it objectifies homosexual men. Yaoi portrays ideal heterosexual love relationships with all its cliches. You have a masculine partner called "Seme" who is almost like a superhero always saving its partner. Then you have the "Uke" character who is typically extremely girly and defenseless who needs a strong Seme and that's it. There's nothing more attached to it.


Your description is not limited to yaoi and can be applied to other genres as well. This objectification of people and idealistic relationships you speak of have always existed in the romance genre.
 
#4
Jul 10, 2:20 PM
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Tohsaka_Rukia said:
Ryougine said:
Speaking for myself. I don't like Yaoi. Yaoi is not a realistic depiction of male homosexual relationships and indirectly reinforces sterotypes and preconceived ideas about homosexual men. Also, it objectifies homosexual men. Yaoi portrays ideal heterosexual love relationships with all its cliches. You have a masculine partner called "Seme" who is almost like a superhero always saving its partner. Then you have the "Uke" character who is typically extremely girly and defenseless who needs a strong Seme and that's it. There's nothing more attached to it.
Your description is not limited to yaoi and can be applied to other genres as well. This objectification of people and idealistic relationships you speak of have always existed in the romance genre.
I know, but the topic is related to yaoi only. I could have written more or less the same thing even if it were another genre.

#Reposted
 
#5
Jul 10, 2:21 PM
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Ryougine said:
Speaking for myself. I don't like Yaoi. Yaoi is not a realistic depiction of male homosexual relationships and indirectly reinforces sterotypes and preconceived ideas about homosexual men. Also, it objectifies homosexual men. Yaoi portrays ideal heterosexual love relationships with all its cliches. You have a masculine partner called "Seme" who is almost like a superhero always saving its partner. Then you have the "Uke" character who is typically extremely girly and defenseless who needs a strong Seme and that's it. There's nothing more attached to it.
I see. Are there any anime or manga that portray them realistically and respectably, that you are aware of?
 
#6
Jul 10, 2:27 PM

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I think they tend to be hyper-idealized for a niche audience who finds that idealization compelling or attractive or whatever. If people tried arguing them as realistic or even favorable portrayals of homosexual relationships on a general level, I'd think they're a bit delusional and that should probably be swatted back a bit.

But the concept in of itself and functioning in that capacity is fine, in of itself. They're not required to aim for realism or anything of the sort, nor should they be obligated to. I kind of feel like that tends to be a prominent-but-underlying feature in these kinds of complaints and I don't think very much of it.
 
#7
Jul 10, 2:37 PM

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Well I can tell what I think of Girls Love: It suffers from other problems. I looked it through the manga database here and I saw how many of these girls are in moe style and how "pure and fluffy" it is represented. Some others suffer from the same abuse-syndrome as Boys Love, but okay heterosexual relationships also do. Older Boys Love manga were the worst at fetishizing / romantizing abuse.
Another weird tropes and old cliches about GL are:
- It's often a girl's school, just to avoid boys geting in their way. I personally don't like the trope. I was in a girl's class and our whole school was like 70 % girls, but everyone had male friends. It feels so unnatural.
- The tomboyish and more feminine couple are popular, although some couples just are like that. If they have enough personality, I don't care.
- Unfortunately there are too many covers, where one woman looks like in her 30s and the other girl looks like she's 12? I don't know about them, since I didn't look into these manga / anime.

For Boys Love:
I watched some really bad anime as teenager, because I thought I was bisexual and felt attracted / had the wish to see bi or gay characters in anime. Doesn't matter if male or female.
At first I realized that I seriously hate the art style from Junjou Romantica for example and I didn't like the dynamics of the couples either.
Then I read some manga (I have to look for them tho, think I didn't add most of the yaoi manga I read back then) and their relationship disgusted me.

I can't say anything bad about more feminine guys, tho. A friend of mine explained to me that he is theoretically happy that more feminine guys are portrayed, but they are unforunately not written as people, they are written as mere stereotypes, like the typical uke.
I also don't like the idea that having these couple dynamics is inherently bad and everyone should be more "masculine", because people like that actually exist and could make good couples. Western media is enough making fun of more "camp gay" guys - and the LGBT commumity is part of that, since "they make me look bad" and all.
It's just the fact many are heavily fetishized for heterosexual girls and not fleshed out characters at all.
They should take the place of the typical Shoujo heroine, who should be a self insert for the girls.

I think, new Boys Love manga (or such manga that aren't labeled as BL) became so much better overall, if I compare what I read in the early 2000s or so, and I'm curious to watch Given then.
Also, I hope they will make an anime adaptation from Harukaze no Etranger in the next years.
 
#8
Jul 10, 8:36 PM

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the whole BL genre is flooded with tons a rapey crap that's passed off as romance, which overall makes it difficult to enjoy. But when I manage to find something that doesn't have a ton of that I like it

However BL and yaoi tend to perpetuate the idea that all gay relationships involve a dom and a sub (for the sake of erotica), and while there are some relationships where that is involved, its hardly representative of the whole community

I've just noticed this strange phenomenon in most of the BL manga I've read where the guy will be attracted to another guy, yet still claims he's "not gay." Typically the attraction is presented as an exception for the guy rather than a revelation of his sexuality. Its as if for the story and relationship to be acceptable, the characters have to denounce homosexuality whilst engaging in the gay
 
#9
Jul 10, 9:21 PM

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Jul 10, 9:42 PM

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mikoryn said:
the whole BL genre is flooded with tons a rapey crap that's passed off as romance, which overall makes it difficult to enjoy. But when I manage to find something that doesn't have a ton of that I like it

However BL and yaoi tend to perpetuate the idea that all gay relationships involve a dom and a sub (for the sake of erotica), and while there are some relationships where that is involved, its hardly representative of the whole community
And both of these arguments could just as easily be leveled against most male–female romance — Japanese entertainment is absolutely full of roles and gender dynamics but be the sexes opposite then it's suddenly fine to have a seme and uke (but just give it a different name though it be the same thing) but not be the sexes the same.

I've just noticed this strange phenomenon in most of the BL manga I've read where the guy will be attracted to another guy, yet still claims he's "not gay." Typically the attraction is presented as an exception for the guy rather than a revelation of his sexuality. Its as if for the story and relationship to be acceptable, the characters have to denounce homosexuality whilst engaging in the gay


>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexual_erasure

Apart from that this is exactly this is exactly the crap I talked about in my initial reply that "gay" is a bullshit western subculture that has claimed a monopoly on homoeroetica and now one can't engage in homoeroetica any more in the privacy of one's own room without first becoming a member of the gay club because apparently they have copyright on it or something and only license its use for members.


It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate".

— Bertrand Russell
 
Jul 10, 10:13 PM

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Sphinxter said:
mikoryn said:
the whole BL genre is flooded with tons a rapey crap that's passed off as romance, which overall makes it difficult to enjoy. But when I manage to find something that doesn't have a ton of that I like it

However BL and yaoi tend to perpetuate the idea that all gay relationships involve a dom and a sub (for the sake of erotica), and while there are some relationships where that is involved, its hardly representative of the whole community
And both of these arguments could just as easily be leveled against most male–female romance — Japanese entertainment is absolutely full of roles and gender dynamics but be the sexes opposite then it's suddenly fine to have a seme and uke (but just give it a different name though it be the same thing) but not be the sexes the same.

I've just noticed this strange phenomenon in most of the BL manga I've read where the guy will be attracted to another guy, yet still claims he's "not gay." Typically the attraction is presented as an exception for the guy rather than a revelation of his sexuality. Its as if for the story and relationship to be acceptable, the characters have to denounce homosexuality whilst engaging in the gay


>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexual_erasure

Apart from that this is exactly this is exactly the crap I talked about in my initial reply that "gay" is a bullshit western subculture that has claimed a monopoly on homoeroetica and now one can't engage in homoeroetica any more in the privacy of one's own room without first becoming a member of the gay club because apparently they have copyright on it or something and only license its use for members.


I agree that those stereotypes are prevalent in depictions of female-male relationships, however there are plenty of straight romance anime where that is not the case, whereas in BL, departures from the stereotypes are scarce

I would accept your argument that the characters are bisexual if that was something that was discussed or realized by the characters in the stories, but that's usually not the case. I'm not saying that they need to be straight or gay and no in between. I'm saying that the characters reject the whole idea of being attracted to the same gender while wanting to engage in gay (gay umbrella term here) activities, which is some kind of weird doublethink.

IMO it's to make BL more stomacheable for people by shaming homosexuality at the same time that they enjoy it, which is pretty homophobic

I don't think most gay people care if straight people enjoy gay anime or whatever, it's the issue that the representation of gay people typically sucks. And in sexual contexts a lot of straight people objectify gay people, and no longer view them as people but rather objects for their gratification

 
Jul 11, 5:37 AM

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mikoryn said:
Sphinxter said:
And both of these arguments could just as easily be leveled against most male–female romance — Japanese entertainment is absolutely full of roles and gender dynamics but be the sexes opposite then it's suddenly fine to have a seme and uke (but just give it a different name though it be the same thing) but not be the sexes the same.



>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexual_erasure

Apart from that this is exactly this is exactly the crap I talked about in my initial reply that "gay" is a bullshit western subculture that has claimed a monopoly on homoeroetica and now one can't engage in homoeroetica any more in the privacy of one's own room without first becoming a member of the gay club because apparently they have copyright on it or something and only license its use for members.


I agree that those stereotypes are prevalent in depictions of female-male relationships, however there are plenty of straight romance anime where that is not the case, whereas in BL, departures from the stereotypes are scarce
I beg to differ. The existence of such roled dynamics are much more common place in male–female romance; viewers just don't mind or notice when it is because they're completely used to these gender roles but I daresay there's not a single male–female romance story that is not filled with gender dynamics unless it's really obscure and avoids them as a manner of principle.

I would accept your argument that the characters are bisexual if that was something that was discussed or realized by the characters in the stories
Yes — that's typically the thing with heteronormfags; they will accept a character is "heterosexual" without the dialogue stating it, nay even assume it, nay even assume it despite homoeroetic behavior shown on screen but no character can be anything else without it explicitly being stated.

I'm not saying that they need to be straight or gay and no in between. I'm saying that the characters reject the whole idea of being attracted to the same gender while wanting to engage in gay (gay umbrella term here) activities, which is some kind of weird doublethink.
Yet no one complains about the Saito–Louise pairing despite Saito's repeated voicing of that he does not like small breasts.

The reason for this is of course that sexual-orientationfags have constantly spread this idea of "sexual orientations" and that one can only be attracted because of a gender and not despite of it. Similar stuff is super common that characters admit that they are attracted to another character despite of a quality — this is the practically the standard setup in Japanese romantic media that two characters find each other despite various qualities of each other they admit they don't like about each other.

Why would gender be different? — because the sexual-orientationfag said it is?

IMO it's to make BL more stomacheable for people by shaming homosexuality at the same time that they enjoy it, which is pretty homophobic
Yet heterosexuality is treated like that all the time with no complaint.

No — it's to make it stomachable by those that aren't labelfags and roll their eyes every time one of those faggy sexual orientation labels is dropped. And most viewers have the same standard for heterosexuals, mind you. Most viewers roll their eyes need a heterosexual character emphasize his heterosexuality with labels left and right even half as often as has come to be expected of anything else — fuck that shit.

I don't think most gay people care if straight people enjoy gay anime or whatever, it's the issue that the representation of gay people typically sucks.
Again — you assume that this a "repræsentation of gay people" — fuck gay people.

"gay people" are a labelfag western subculture that has appropriated homoerotica which existed for thousands of years ere said subculture and claimed a monopoly on it insisting that one cannot practice homoerotica without "being gay"; they gatekeep it like a mofo and insist that all that practice it should get a membership card issued from them or something.

Furthermore they're a bunch of sexual-orientationfags that continue to spread this absurd idea of "sexual orientations" which are nothing more than faggy labels that labelfags need to put onto themselves. Fuck "gay people" so hard.

b.l. rarely depicts "gay people" and thank god for that because in a lot of western entertainment one can't find any homoeroeticism that does not involve "gay people" because they've been completely successful there it seems and this wasn't always the case. Consider that in the 1990s Star Trek: Deep Space Nine displayed homoereoticism without a need for "gay people". Cut to 2018 and Star Trek: Discovery needs to add "gay people" and "pansexual people" and all that shit to appeal to the labelfag.


And in sexual contexts a lot of straight people objectify gay people, and no longer view them as people but rather objects for their gratification
Like every character ever in fan-service themed entertainment?


It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate".

— Bertrand Russell
 
Jul 11, 6:53 AM

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I've never watched a yaoi so I couldn't tell
(mostly because gay characters portrayed in yaois are really not my type or not really interesting)



I didn't watch many animes where gay characters can be seen, and the few ones I saw handled it pretty badly, only showing those cliché and effeminate characters

Not complaning or anything though, I'm absolutely not bothered by this, but it sure make me happy to finally see a gay (and important) character portrayed right

(tbh I certainly already saw some good gay characters in some animes, but I can't remember them right now)
And then, God missed a step of his stairs
 
Jul 11, 6:56 AM
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Erm. I find the whole seme/uke dynamic odd. It's like watching a hetero relationship.


Bölvat es okkr, bróðir,
bani em ek þinn orðinn;
þat mun æ uppi;
illr er dómr norna.
-Hlöðskviða
(The Battle of the Goths and Huns)
 
Jul 11, 7:01 AM

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Sphinxter said:

Fuck gay people; fuck straight people; fuck all subcultures and the tribalfag. Thankfully most b.l. leaves that crap alone and realizes that love and erotica needn't have this "sexual orientation" crap to succeed.
Indeed. I agree with u. Is there really a need to find or realise this 'sexual orientation' thing? Just enjoy what u want to LOL. There is no need to term urself gay or bi if u enjoy something different. Everyone can learn a thing or two from Kristen Stewart.

Best Couple ---> Senjougahara x Araragi
 
Jul 11, 7:13 AM

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vulturs said:
Erm. I find the whole seme/uke dynamic odd. It's like watching a hetero relationship.
And yet you find it not odd when essentially the same thing is indeed featured in an opposite-sex relationship.


It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate".

— Bertrand Russell
 
Jul 11, 7:16 AM

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All real-life guys look like shit, so BL is the only thing I like. I have no idea what "Real-life gay relationships" are like, because I've never experienced one, and I likely never will.

Some BL are not my cup of tea, but that's why MangaUpdates exists, so you can read the genres, tags and reviews, so that you won't accidentally read something disturbing. Also, if you stay away from Yaoi, and just read Shounen-ai, you'll encounter much better works.

 
Jul 11, 7:27 AM
wolf brigadier

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Sphinxter said:
vulturs said:
Erm. I find the whole seme/uke dynamic odd. It's like watching a hetero relationship.
And yet you find it not odd when essentially the same thing is indeed featured in an opposite-sex relationship.


I didn't say I didn't find it odd the way heteros are represented. This thread isn't about them.


Bölvat es okkr, bróðir,
bani em ek þinn orðinn;
þat mun æ uppi;
illr er dómr norna.
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Jul 11, 7:46 AM

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From what I know, yaoi mostly have that cliché relationship of seme/uke, a dominant and a dominated, so it may pleases the fanboys and the fangirls of the genre but it disturbs me since that's not how gay relationships work IRL
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Jul 11, 7:47 AM

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Themousen said:
From what I know, yaoi mostly have that cliché relationship of seme/uke, a dominant and a dominated, so it may pleases the fanboys and the fangirls of the genre but it disturbs me since that's not how gay relationships work IRL


Would you mind explaining exactly "how" gay relationships in real life work?

 
Jul 11, 7:50 AM

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They probably know it's far from what it actually is in reality.
 
Jul 11, 7:59 AM
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Seiya said:
All real-life guys look like shit



Truth hurts. This comment made me laugh so hard.


Bölvat es okkr, bróðir,
bani em ek þinn orðinn;
þat mun æ uppi;
illr er dómr norna.
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Jul 11, 7:59 AM

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Seiya said:
Themousen said:
From what I know, yaoi mostly have that cliché relationship of seme/uke, a dominant and a dominated, so it may pleases the fanboys and the fangirls of the genre but it disturbs me since that's not how gay relationships work IRL


Would you mind explaining exactly "how" gay relationships in real life work?


Just like an heterosexual relationship ?
Men aren't different from women, it depends of everyone's personality

In yaoi, you must have that frozen relationship where a guy is confined to one role (being the dominant or being dominated, that's what disturbs me the most), where in reality there's way more versatile persons
For some reasons, it's always a seme/uke couple, hardly never seen a seme/seme or uke/uke couple
And their characters clichés too, a "dominant" has to act manly and strong (while barely looking like it, by the way), while the "dominated" is more of an effeminate and fragile man in the worst cases, and just the average shy guy in most of the cases


also

"All real-life guys look like shit"

yikes
And then, God missed a step of his stairs
 
Jul 11, 8:06 AM

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Themousen said:
Seiya said:


Would you mind explaining exactly "how" gay relationships in real life work?


Just like an heterosexual relationship ?
Men aren't different from women, it depends of everyone's personality

In yaoi, you must have that frozen relationship where a guy is confined to one role (being the dominant or being dominated, that's what disturbs me the most), where in reality there's way more versatile persons
For some reasons, it's always a seme/uke couple, hardly never seen a seme/seme or uke/uke couple
And their characters clichés too, a "dominant" has to act manly and strong (while barely looking like it, by the way), while the "dominated" is more of an effeminate and fragile man in the worst cases, and just the average shy guy in most of the cases


also

"All real-life guys look like shit"

yikes


I hate masculinity. I'm only attracted to guys who have clean shaven faces, shaved bodies, and have their bangs brushed forward, but due to current trends, all guys have their hair slicked back, and the sides of their heads shaved, and that grosses me out. I hate visible foreheads.

 
Jul 11, 8:09 AM
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Themousen said:
Seiya said:


Would you mind explaining exactly "how" gay relationships in real life work?


Just like an heterosexual relationship ?
Men aren't different from women, it depends of everyone's personality

In yaoi, you must have that frozen relationship where a guy is confined to one role (being the dominant or being dominated, that's what disturbs me the most), where in reality there's way more versatile persons
For some reasons, it's always a seme/uke couple, hardly never seen a seme/seme or uke/uke couple
And their characters clichés too, a "dominant" has to act manly and strong (while barely looking like it, by the way), while the "dominated" is more of an effeminate and fragile man in the worst cases, and just the average shy guy in most of the cases



What's with the attack on supposedly not looking the part as a seme? and the uke being effeminate and 'fragile' in the worst cases? Nothing necessarily wrong with that, is there?

edit- attack probably isn't the right word. i got salty.


Bölvat es okkr, bróðir,
bani em ek þinn orðinn;
þat mun æ uppi;
illr er dómr norna.
-Hlöðskviða
(The Battle of the Goths and Huns)
 
Jul 11, 8:16 AM

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vulturs said:
Themousen said:


Just like an heterosexual relationship ?
Men aren't different from women, it depends of everyone's personality

In yaoi, you must have that frozen relationship where a guy is confined to one role (being the dominant or being dominated, that's what disturbs me the most), where in reality there's way more versatile persons
For some reasons, it's always a seme/uke couple, hardly never seen a seme/seme or uke/uke couple
And their characters clichés too, a "dominant" has to act manly and strong (while barely looking like it, by the way), while the "dominated" is more of an effeminate and fragile man in the worst cases, and just the average shy guy in most of the cases



What's with the attack on supposedly not looking the part as a seme? and the uke being effeminate and 'fragile' in the worst cases? Nothing necessarily wrong with that, is there?

edit- attack probably isn't the right word. i got salty.


I don't mind it as a character, but since our discussion if about how it ressembles to RL relationships, it's really cliché because the way an effeminate uke is portrayed in an anime isn't really representative of a RL person (it's all really exaggerated), since most of gay people aren't like that

Seiya said:
Themousen said:


Just like an heterosexual relationship ?
Men aren't different from women, it depends of everyone's personality

In yaoi, you must have that frozen relationship where a guy is confined to one role (being the dominant or being dominated, that's what disturbs me the most), where in reality there's way more versatile persons
For some reasons, it's always a seme/uke couple, hardly never seen a seme/seme or uke/uke couple
And their characters clichés too, a "dominant" has to act manly and strong (while barely looking like it, by the way), while the "dominated" is more of an effeminate and fragile man in the worst cases, and just the average shy guy in most of the cases


also

"All real-life guys look like shit"

yikes


I hate masculinity. I'm only attracted to guys who have clean shaven faces, shaved bodies, and have their bangs brushed forward, but due to current trends, all guys have their hair slicked back, and the sides of their heads shaved, and that grosses me out. I hate visible foreheads.

You're kinda generalizing, I hope you know that
Saying "all men look the same" doesn't work, there's literally every type and every genre in the world, you just have to look and search for someone that you like
Modified by Themousen, Jul 11, 8:20 AM
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Jul 11, 8:44 AM

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Themousen said:
vulturs said:


What's with the attack on supposedly not looking the part as a seme? and the uke being effeminate and 'fragile' in the worst cases? Nothing necessarily wrong with that, is there?

edit- attack probably isn't the right word. i got salty.


I don't mind it as a character, but since our discussion if about how it ressembles to RL relationships, it's really cliché because the way an effeminate uke is portrayed in an anime isn't really representative of a RL person (it's all really exaggerated), since most of gay people aren't like that

Seiya said:


I hate masculinity. I'm only attracted to guys who have clean shaven faces, shaved bodies, and have their bangs brushed forward, but due to current trends, all guys have their hair slicked back, and the sides of their heads shaved, and that grosses me out. I hate visible foreheads.

You're kinda generalizing, I hope you know that
Saying "all men look the same" doesn't work, there's literally every type and every genre in the world, you just have to look and search for someone that you like


I live in a small town in eastern Canada, and all guys here are a bunch of dumb, manly, short-haired blue-collar tradespeople, and I hate it.

I'm disabled due to chronic pain, and I can never work or drive a car, so I can't move to another place in the country. I've never seen a guy in real life that I found sexually attractive.

 
Jul 11, 8:48 AM

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Seiya said:
Themousen said:


I don't mind it as a character, but since our discussion if about how it ressembles to RL relationships, it's really cliché because the way an effeminate uke is portrayed in an anime isn't really representative of a RL person (it's all really exaggerated), since most of gay people aren't like that


You're kinda generalizing, I hope you know that
Saying "all men look the same" doesn't work, there's literally every type and every genre in the world, you just have to look and search for someone that you like


I live in a small town in eastern Canada, and all guys here are a bunch of dumb, manly, short-haired blue-collar tradespeople, and I hate it.

I'm disabled due to chronic pain, and I can never work or drive a car, so I can't move to another place in the country. I've never seen a guy in real life that I found sexually attractive.


I assume you're still young, so don't despair, you'll surely be able to go to a bigger town where people match your expectations sooner or later !
Modified by Themousen, Jul 11, 8:54 AM
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Jul 11, 8:51 AM

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Themousen said:
Seiya said:


I live in a small town in eastern Canada, and all guys here are a bunch of dumb, manly, short-haired blue-collar tradespeople, and I hate it.

I'm disabled due to chronic pain, and I can never work or drive a car, so I can't move to another place in the country. I've never seen a guy in real life that I found sexually attractive.


I assume you're still young, so don't desperate, you'll surely be able to go to a bigger town where people match your expectations sooner or later !


I'm in my early 30s. I'll never be able to work, and I'll never be able to go to a bigger town. I live in a nice apartment, and I'll just have to stay a single virgin for the rest of my life.

 
Jul 11, 9:17 AM
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It’s mostly smut trash written by disgusting fujos. I despise the genre in it’s entirety.
 
Jul 11, 9:18 AM

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vulturs said:
Sphinxter said:
And yet you find it not odd when essentially the same thing is indeed featured in an opposite-sex relationship.


I didn't say I didn't find it odd the way heteros are represented. This thread isn't about them.
Yeah this neverending excuse for a dual standard; first a dual standard is præsented and when pointed out it's washed away with "this isn't about them"; that absolves not the dual standard.

And you may have not explicitly said it but your wording of "it's like watching a hetero relationship" definitely implies that you mind it not when the exact same dynamic is præsent in that context. Your complaint heavily implies that it's wrong for same-sex relationships to essentially be the same as opposite-sex.


It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate".

— Bertrand Russell
 
Jul 11, 9:22 AM
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Oh, and the fact that such a high % of it is literal rape bait or the most cliché garbage imaginable? Yeah that’s a no for me. It’s written by creepy fujos and weird guys, for creepy fujos and weird guys.
 
Jul 11, 9:29 AM

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Seiya said:
Themousen said:


Just like an heterosexual relationship ?
Men aren't different from women, it depends of everyone's personality

In yaoi, you must have that frozen relationship where a guy is confined to one role (being the dominant or being dominated, that's what disturbs me the most), where in reality there's way more versatile persons
For some reasons, it's always a seme/uke couple, hardly never seen a seme/seme or uke/uke couple
And their characters clichés too, a "dominant" has to act manly and strong (while barely looking like it, by the way), while the "dominated" is more of an effeminate and fragile man in the worst cases, and just the average shy guy in most of the cases


also

"All real-life guys look like shit"

yikes


I hate masculinity. I'm only attracted to guys who have clean shaven faces, shaved bodies, and have their bangs brushed forward, but due to current trends, all guys have their hair slicked back, and the sides of their heads shaved, and that grosses me out. I hate visible foreheads.
This in particular resonates very well with me; I really dislike the "hairline aesthetic" I don't get the appeal and don't want to see hairlines.

It's something I noticed about Oriental male hairstyle sense that they typically hide their hairlines similar to western female hairstyles opposed to exposing them.

I think it's ugly enough as it is if my fringe falls weirdly and my hairline is visible through it


It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate".

— Bertrand Russell
 
Jul 11, 9:36 AM
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Sphinxter said:
vulturs said:


I didn't say I didn't find it odd the way heteros are represented. This thread isn't about them.
Yeah this neverending excuse for a dual standard; first a dual standard is præsented and when pointed out it's washed away with "this isn't about them"; that absolves not the dual standard.

And you may have not explicitly said it but your wording of "it's like watching a hetero relationship" definitely implies that you mind it not when the exact same dynamic is præsent in that context. Your complaint heavily implies that it's wrong for same-sex relationships to essentially be the same as opposite-sex.


Okay, I see where you're coming from. The implication definitely wasn't intended.

I don't think it's wrong for resembling a hetero relationship, I think what I was trying to say (rather poorly), was that from my own personal experience in same-sex relationships, I'm not really seeing what I know to be the case in my own life in what is commonplace in BL/Yaoi.


Bölvat es okkr, bróðir,
bani em ek þinn orðinn;
þat mun æ uppi;
illr er dómr norna.
-Hlöðskviða
(The Battle of the Goths and Huns)
 
Jul 11, 9:37 AM

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Oni_Zokuchou said:
It’s mostly smut trash written by disgusting fujos. I despise the genre in it’s entirety.


Damn luv, there's so much irony in this post just by taking a glance at your profile.
 
Jul 11, 9:47 AM

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vulturs said:
Sphinxter said:
Yeah this neverending excuse for a dual standard; first a dual standard is præsented and when pointed out it's washed away with "this isn't about them"; that absolves not the dual standard.

And you may have not explicitly said it but your wording of "it's like watching a hetero relationship" definitely implies that you mind it not when the exact same dynamic is præsent in that context. Your complaint heavily implies that it's wrong for same-sex relationships to essentially be the same as opposite-sex.


Okay, I see where you're coming from. The implication definitely wasn't intended.

I don't think it's wrong for resembling a hetero relationship, I think what I was trying to say (rather poorly), was that from my own personal experience in same-sex relationships, I'm not really seeing what I know to be the case in my own life in what is commonplace in BL/Yaoi.
It isn't; because relationships in fiction are never realistic. Do opposite-sex relationships in Japanese entertainment at all mirror what you see in real life?

And I still retain that most of the criticism applies to that as well like the "rape is frequent" criticism. It's exactly the same in opposite-sex dynamics except the audience simply doesn't take nearly as much offence when a female rapes a male than when a male rapes a male.


It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate".

— Bertrand Russell
 
Jul 11, 9:58 AM
wolf brigadier

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Sphinxter said:
vulturs said:


Okay, I see where you're coming from. The implication definitely wasn't intended.

I don't think it's wrong for resembling a hetero relationship, I think what I was trying to say (rather poorly), was that from my own personal experience in same-sex relationships, I'm not really seeing what I know to be the case in my own life in what is commonplace in BL/Yaoi.
It isn't; because relationships in fiction are never realistic. Do opposite-sex relationships in Japanese entertainment at all mirror what you see in real life?

And I still retain that most of the criticism applies to that as well like the "rape is frequent" criticism. It's exactly the same in opposite-sex dynamics except the audience simply doesn't take nearly as much offence when a female rapes a male than when a male rapes a male.


Perhaps I'm expecting too much from anime/manga in this respect. I can't help but be dissatisfied with the limited offerings at hand as a result.

I think a lot of the "rape is frequent" complaints, especially from gay men, stem from the fact that they don't want to suffer from any more stigma. The 'gay pervert' stereotype is still quite prevalent.


Bölvat es okkr, bróðir,
bani em ek þinn orðinn;
þat mun æ uppi;
illr er dómr norna.
-Hlöðskviða
(The Battle of the Goths and Huns)
 
Jul 11, 10:04 AM

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vulturs said:
Sphinxter said:
It isn't; because relationships in fiction are never realistic. Do opposite-sex relationships in Japanese entertainment at all mirror what you see in real life?

And I still retain that most of the criticism applies to that as well like the "rape is frequent" criticism. It's exactly the same in opposite-sex dynamics except the audience simply doesn't take nearly as much offence when a female rapes a male than when a male rapes a male.


Perhaps I'm expecting too much from anime/manga in this respect. I can't help but be dissatisfied with the limited offerings at hand as a result.

I think a lot of the "rape is frequent" complaints, especially from gay men, stem from the fact that they don't want to suffer from any more stigma. The 'gay pervert' stereotype is still quite prevalent.
Maybe it is but then they should come clean and not præsent it as that b.l. is worse than b.–g.l. and just admit that basically what they want is that it's held to a higher standard.

And I continue to stress that the characters in b.l. are rarely "gay".


It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate".

— Bertrand Russell
 
Jul 11, 11:43 AM

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I mean, if you go asking around this question you'll just get differing answers really. Some couldn't care less and some take offense, similarly how some lesbians and transwomen take offense to lesbian and shemale porn that is aimed at straight guys but some don't care or even enjoy that kind of porn exist. Just yesterday I listened a podcast where this celebrity (gay dude) commented how he loved women read gay erotica even though he himself just founds those works funny.

With yaoi and BL, the one simple thing is just it's not really aimed at gay men. Most works that get published in gay magazines include some fetish that their readers like (usually BDSM), that however doesn't mean there isn't some overlap in both yaoi/BL and gay manga/ML readers. Female sexuality is just different from male sexuality and it shows in BL how male characters are written, just like in romance story written by male how female character is portrayed. Another thing I would note is BL/yaoi isn't necessarily LGBT story thus not focusing on characters' sexuality. I categorize them simply in three groups romance, porn, LGBT. Some can fit two or all but not often, so depending of those categories I change my expectations.

Regarding rape trope, rape is honestly as commonly used in gay manga aka bara as it is in yaoi. "Rapey" and douche bag characters are present even in shoujo and redikomi (hentai for women), so I don't think it's just a yaoi thing. Difference I think is just how in shoujo and BL (being also shoujo) the rape victim is either already in love with the rapist or the rapist will be portrayed as more in positive light and not just as a dick. With gay manga rape is more like in hentai, how that rape victim is humiliated and usually gets mind break treatment and just wants to get used over and over. Rapist(s) could as well just be a floating cock in most works. But that's over simplified tbh, I have seen enough mob ugly bastard/male ikemen character doujinshis to know better but since this is about yaoi/BL that isn't as common.

That's my hot take on porn, great.
 
Jul 11, 11:50 AM

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PrudenceRay said:
What aspects are right and wrong, realistic or misrepresented, etc.


Considering we are talking about anime here, probably all of the above.

Remember everybody: Most anime is made as an escape from not-so-perfect reality, it is not created to be an accurate depiction of real world people, events or situations. There are plenty of live action movies, books, comics etc that strive for realism, if you are looking for realistic depictions of whatever the hell you identify as give those a try and don't go looking for it in a medium that thrives on it's lack of realism.
"They say people don't believe in heroes anymore. Well, damn them! You and me, we're gonna give them back their heroes."


 
Jul 17, 9:07 AM
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mikoryn said:
the whole BL genre is flooded with tons a rapey crap that's passed off as romance, which overall makes it difficult to enjoy. But when I manage to find something that doesn't have a ton of that I like it

However BL and yaoi tend to perpetuate the idea that all gay relationships involve a dom and a sub (for the sake of erotica), and while there are some relationships where that is involved, its hardly representative of the whole community

I've just noticed this strange phenomenon in most of the BL manga I've read where the guy will be attracted to another guy, yet still claims he's "not gay." Typically the attraction is presented as an exception for the guy rather than a revelation of his sexuality. Its as if for the story and relationship to be acceptable, the characters have to denounce homosexuality whilst engaging in the gay
the rapey aspect of most BL Anime and manga disturbs me too. And it is sold as romance. That is extra creepy. But when I point it out, people chew me out. Sigh.

I agree with everything you said.i feel the same way.
 
Jul 17, 9:25 AM

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I would say that my homosexual friend feels resentment towards yaoi, yuri or any romantic anime. So yeah, don't expect homosexuals to get into yaoi or romantic anime and don't insult their intelligence with that life-like, lovey-dovey stuff.
 
Jul 17, 9:29 AM
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Kurt_Irving said:
I would say that my homosexual friend feels resentment towards yaoi, yuri or any romantic anime. So yeah, don't expect homosexuals to get into yaoi or romantic anime and don't insult their intelligence with that life-like, lovey-dovey stuff.
trust me, I don't. And I feel the same way as your friend, and I am straight.
 
Jul 17, 9:50 AM
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vulturs said:
Sphinxter said:
It isn't; because relationships in fiction are never realistic. Do opposite-sex relationships in Japanese entertainment at all mirror what you see in real life?

And I still retain that most of the criticism applies to that as well like the "rape is frequent" criticism. It's exactly the same in opposite-sex dynamics except the audience simply doesn't take nearly as much offence when a female rapes a male than when a male rapes a male.


Perhaps I'm expecting too much from anime/manga in this respect. I can't help but be dissatisfied with the limited offerings at hand as a result.

I think a lot of the "rape is frequent" complaints, especially from gay men, stem from the fact that they don't want to suffer from any more stigma. The 'gay pervert' stereotype is still quite prevalent.
Is that just with gays tho? I mean, in most anime it seems more like "male pervert" is the generic stereotype, the "gay" part is just a different sexuality for someone who was already born a pervert to begin with? If that makes sense anyway.
 
Jul 17, 10:07 AM
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Kurgo said:
vulturs said:


Perhaps I'm expecting too much from anime/manga in this respect. I can't help but be dissatisfied with the limited offerings at hand as a result.

I think a lot of the "rape is frequent" complaints, especially from gay men, stem from the fact that they don't want to suffer from any more stigma. The 'gay pervert' stereotype is still quite prevalent.
Is that just with gays tho? I mean, in most anime it seems more like "male pervert" is the generic stereotype, the "gay" part is just a different sexuality for someone who was already born a pervert to begin with? If that makes sense anyway.


The thing is there are so many hetero males including non-perverted ones and pretty much every type of personality you can think of, throughout the anime medium. Gay men in anime are either portrayed as okamas when they are played as a joke, or as part of a rapey seme/uke relationship if they are portrayed dramatically.

So it's not really about a trend in the portrayal, it's about the exclusive use of stereotypes on the one side vs the prevalent, but far from exclusive use of stereotypes on the other side. Yes, there are male stereotypes that apply to many male characters in anime, but there's still hundreds and thousands of males characters that don't fit those stereotypes, while there are barely any non-stereotypical gay characters.

Also there is a difference between being pervy and rapey, I think that is the main thing here. You can't really compare the portrayal of a dorky but lovable pervert like it happens in a ton of shows with the creepy rape vibes you get from so many yaoi chars.

Listen, everybody wants change, don't nobody want to change though
don't nobody want to pray, till they got something to pray for
now everybody's gonna die, but don't everybody live though
 
Jul 17, 10:35 AM

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Kurgo said:
vulturs said:


Perhaps I'm expecting too much from anime/manga in this respect. I can't help but be dissatisfied with the limited offerings at hand as a result.

I think a lot of the "rape is frequent" complaints, especially from gay men, stem from the fact that they don't want to suffer from any more stigma. The 'gay pervert' stereotype is still quite prevalent.
Is that just with gays tho? I mean, in most anime it seems more like "male pervert" is the generic stereotype, the "gay" part is just a different sexuality for someone who was already born a pervert to begin with? If that makes sense anyway.


Yeah, but not all males in anime are perverts. These perverted characters tend to be represented as weird and not "normal." Many gay characters are written to be perverted, as if being gay naturally = being perverted.
 
Jul 17, 12:41 PM

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Pullman said:
Kurgo said:
Is that just with gays tho? I mean, in most anime it seems more like "male pervert" is the generic stereotype, the "gay" part is just a different sexuality for someone who was already born a pervert to begin with? If that makes sense anyway.


The thing is there are so many hetero males including non-perverted ones and pretty much every type of personality you can think of, throughout the anime medium. Gay men in anime are either portrayed as okamas when they are played as a joke, or as part of a rapey seme/uke relationship if they are portrayed dramatically.
To be honest I think this stems from your assumption that every character that has no romantic or sexual interaction is heterosexual.

The vast majority of romances in shall we call it "otaku entertainment" seem to be based on at the very least severely bending the lines of sexual harassment and rape. The reason you think "every time there's a gay character it's rapey" is because you assume that every character of which no sexual inclination is provided on-screen is heterosexual and every character of which same-sex sexual inclination is provided is homosexual.

I can obviously cite an endless list of completely chaste, non-perverted, non-rapey characters that have about 5-10% chance of "being gay"; you just assume these characters are "straight".

There are sometimes even fan-theories about this. There's considerable discussion that posits that Light Yagami is "gay"; now obviously he is a murderer but a rapist or pervert he is not. There is no real conclusive evidence that Light is gay but there is certainly more evidence for that than "straight" or "bisexual".


It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate".

— Bertrand Russell
 
Jul 18, 2:33 AM

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They are unrealistic and relationships are done poorly.
 
Jul 18, 1:39 PM
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Tohsaka_Rukia said:
Oni_Zokuchou said:
It’s mostly smut trash written by disgusting fujos. I despise the genre in it’s entirety.


Damn luv, there's so much irony in this post just by taking a glance at your profile.


Yeah, I like ecchi in my ecchi shows, who would’ve thought? I also like romance stories without the constant horny energy.

You don’t get that with Yaoi/BL. It’s mostly tropey, horny garbage to steam up some fujo’s reading glasses. With awful rapey vibes in most of them too. At least ecchi shows/manga are mostly just lewd-by-accident or the girls actively being lewd. BL and Yaoi tho? Ugh, no thanks.

You can keep that shit to yourself.
 
Jul 18, 1:46 PM

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Oni_Zokuchou said:
Tohsaka_Rukia said:


Damn luv, there's so much irony in this post just by taking a glance at your profile.


Yeah, I like ecchi in my ecchi shows, who would’ve thought? I also like romance stories without the constant horny energy.

You don’t get that with Yaoi/BL. It’s mostly tropey, horny garbage to steam up some fujo’s reading glasses. With awful rapey vibes in most of them too. At least ecchi shows/manga are mostly just lewd-by-accident or the girls actively being lewd. BL and Yaoi tho? Ugh, no thanks.

You can keep that shit to yourself.


Yikes... you should've just sat there and ate your food. You're gonna keep contradicting yourself.
 
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