YossaRedMage said: It's almost like the moral authoritarian is hard to please.Japan loves their sexual tabboos. And so do I. As for the moralists people mention... I always say this: Being a fan of sexuality in fiction as a straight man is like being stuck between a rock and a hard place. To the feminists on the left you are a sexist objectifier and to the tradcons on the right you are a 'degenerate'. Can't fucking win. Apart from that those two camps are such an enormous example of the horse-shoe effect. Those two are basically like Muslims and Christians: 99% identical ideas but acting like they're enemies in opposition whilst they'd do best to rather unit to achieve their numerous common goals. Anime, for the most part, is a place where we can escape that nonsense. Anime has always been very accepting and open-minded about sexuality, be it straight, gay, lolis, shota, animal boys/girls, even trans- of both the -vestite and -sexual flavors. But even in this community the sex-negative moaners end up ruining our good time. That's mostly because it isn't Anglo-Saxon.Similar openmindedness about sexuality is not exclusive to Japan; it's just Anglo-Saxon culture that has always been notorious for its sexual morality. I can't even link the opening credits to various Dutch children cartoons on this forum because it's not "not safe for MAL"; a concept mostly rested in Anglo-Saxon nudity morality. primary schoolers being exposed to genitals on Dutch television is nothing particularly outrageous. |
 It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
| oh boy I can smell a locked thread incoming As for the actual topic, I don't mind it in anime as much as I used to, but that's only because I can easily distinguish it from reality. Irl of course I find it wrong for ethical and biological reasons (sure kissing wouldn't do much harm in that respect, but whos to say lust wouldn't eventually take over; only same-sex incest would be the "most safe" in that regard) YossaRedMage said: The discussion about moralizing is super interesting to me. All morality-based critique of art is worthless, in my opinion. There is no imperative for art to be moral. To be entertaining, to be interesting, to challenge, to make us feel emotion and to think, but... to be moral? Why restrict the range of expression? Art is the sum of human expression. By restricting what is 'OK' to express... it's just backwards. Art cannot make someone commit crime. And just because a piece of art portrays something in a positive light, and even if lots of people think of it in a positive light within the context of that work... It still isn't an endoresment of that same thing in a different, real life context. And seriously... what sort of fucking boring person do you have to be to have to morally agree with everything in a work of art? I'm reminded of a famous bar from Eminem that is quoted in the rock and roll hall of fame's greatest 200 albums of all time list: Wake up, get a sense of humor Quit tryin' to censor music: this is for your kid's amusement But don't blame me when little Eric jumps off of the terrace You shoulda been watchin' him, apparently you ain't parents -Never Knew, Eminem Tell that to the guy who murdered John Lennon |
 'On-Hold' is another way for a completionist to say 'Dropped' |
Short_Circut said: This seems really reaching to find a justification to back up morality. There are so many barriers to overcome like contraception and abortion and on top of that the dangers of inbreeding are overstated; they are in fact comparable to having children whilst having a paternal smoker which also increases the chance of mutations gametes.oh boy I can smell a locked thread incoming As for the actual topic, I don't mind it in anime as much as I used to, but that's only because I can easily distinguish it from reality. Irl of course I find it wrong for ethical and biological reasons (sure kissing wouldn't do much harm in that respect, but whos to say lust wouldn't eventually take over; only same-sex incest would be the "most safe" in that regard) That the European Royal families continued to exist relatively peacefully despite generations and generations of inbreeding shows that the risks are overstated. At the height all these niggers were related to one another in many different ways. |
It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
| Considering how popular the childhood friend trope is, incest in anime is like the advanced level. I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't say I'll consider it if the writing is good. In general I avoid it when I can, especially parent/child. Big nope. |
Sphinxter said: Short_Circut said: This seems really reaching to find a justification to back up morality. There are so many barriers to overcome like contraception and abortion and on top of that the dangers of inbreeding are overstated; they are in fact comparable to having children whilst having a paternal smoker which also increases the chance of mutations gametes.oh boy I can smell a locked thread incoming As for the actual topic, I don't mind it in anime as much as I used to, but that's only because I can easily distinguish it from reality. Irl of course I find it wrong for ethical and biological reasons (sure kissing wouldn't do much harm in that respect, but whos to say lust wouldn't eventually take over; only same-sex incest would be the "most safe" in that regard) That the European Royal families continued to exist relatively peacefully despite generations and generations of inbreeding shows that the risks are overstated. At the height all these niggers were related to one another in many different ways. But I wasn't trying to justify anything related to morality though? I simply said for biological reasons, sure there are ethics associated behind those, but I didn't even talk about that idk why you're so adamant on trying to argue about morality though. Especially after creating a thread based on arguably the most controversial topic in that regard As for the Royal families, idk what sources you used but they were definitely messed up from the constant wincest, look at my niga Charles II of Spain. Plus, inbreeding doesn't only cause physical problems, but mental ones as well |
'On-Hold' is another way for a completionist to say 'Dropped' |
CMYK said: I was actually pleasantly surprised that in Lotte's Toy (the comic, the t.v.-adaption leaves this subtext out) it was finally parent—child rather than sibling.Considering how popular the childhood friend trope is, incest in anime is like the advanced level. I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't say I'll consider it if the writing is good. In general I avoid it when I can, especially parent/child. Big nope. But hey a running gag is that because Naoya is 22 but looks 15 and Asuha is 10 that everyone assumes them to be siblings and they certainly behave like it with Naoya having next to no authority over Asuha. I guess that's one of the things one gets from a low age difference from being conceived by the most beautiful statutory sleep-rape scene at the age of 12 a pervert could possibly wish for. Never have I seen a man being raped in his sleep at the age of 12 in a more beautiful and tender way than in Lotte's Toy — can recommend for those that enjoy a good, tender, moving glorification of incest and pædophilia. Well I take that back: it wasn't rape: it would be rape were Naoya unconscious but the scene implies that Naoya gave dream consent: as in he experienced the sex as a dream but was lucid during it and clearly consented which made it so tender. |
It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
Sphinxter said: This seems really reaching to find a justification to back up morality. There are so many barriers to overcome like contraception and abortion and on top of that the dangers of inbreeding are overstated; they are in fact comparable to having children whilst having a paternal smoker which also increases the chance of mutations gametes. That the European Royal families continued to exist relatively peacefully despite generations and generations of inbreeding shows that the risks are overstated. At the height all these niggers were related to one another in many different ways. Not to mention the risk of an abnormality of the fetus or other birth complications from the pregnancy resulting from a union between first cousins is absolutely no different medically than women over 40 having a child, but no one will dare moralize against them and try to prevent or police it. It's a hypocritical double standard and a case of people having an ideology rooted in biological concerns that they themselves don't understand so they create a morality around it and hold it up as an absolute truth. It's similar to Jews and Muslims avoiding pork. Medically, it once made sense, as cooking and storage of meat was not as standardized and trichinosis risks higher, hence labeling it an unclean animal. Nowadays with modern food industry regulation it's no longer relevant but they cling to it out of tradition. Every moral or ideology dreamed up has some underlying physical-material reason and the people who espouse it often cling to it long after it's deemed irrelevant or proven moot. This is human tribalism, purposeful ignorance, and superstition at work. If you show them their biological-based arguments lack merit when exposed to modern medical science (as in the cousins' case), they will typically just put hands over ears, double down, and be content to defend their same position irrationally because it's already an ingrained belief. A lot of people are brainwashed and conditioned in this way. Good or bad, that's what ideology is. |
YossaRedMage said: Growing up, sometimes people would express that they wish they had a sister. The people who actually have sisters would immediately contradict that idea, and say that it's not all that great. Of course, people who don't have sisters never experience having a girl of similar age who's a family member, the lack of any attraction in that regard, and the trials that come with it. They imagine any girl projected into the convenience of proximity. The fantasy doesn't last 13-24 years. It doesn't consider the progression up to the point where sexual closeness is imagined. It's as if the situation spontaneously starts in a "play house".All morality-based critique of art is worthless, in my opinion. In my opinion, that's the genesis of the incest fetish, and the segment of frustrated teenagers that anime sometimes cater to. The shows are often exploiting these perverse fantasies for sales. It is their shtick, their moe. The morality is not the problem here, but the artistic intent. In 1917, Marcel Duchamp submitted a toilet converted into a water fountain into a museum art display. The imagery was distinctively foul, and many argued that it was immoral. No doubt, that's the foundation of your sentiment that art has no morality. I agree. Duchamp's artistic message was to call into question what art was. In those days, art was defined as anything that had subjective value and no other utility. His argument was that the Fountain satisfied those requirements to be called art. Despite the distaste, people eventually recognized the romance of these grand narratives in the modern movement. Incest in anime is similar in that it's distasteful, but different in that there's no grand objective, no message conveyed, it is merely a gimmick that distracts from the remainder of the work, pandering to a segment of fans for increased sales. "Fan service". Entire anime shows have been created to offer nothing new, but to mix and match character traits to sell DVDs and figurines. It is possible to take a postmodernist perspective and say that art doesn't even need to communicate anything. It can just be basic shit, a genuine imitation like Andy Warhol copying and pasting Campbell soups. To some extent, even that's true. There is no argument that anything can be art to some people. But there is art, and then there is art. When someone marvels at a work and proclaims, "This is art!", do they merely mean that they are observing a stick figure? Or is there a deeper message that conveys something powerful. Is incest anime closer to a stick figure, or is it art? That depends on an individual's values. But I think it is fine to say that some artworks are of low quality, are uninspiring, common, derivative, and lacks merit. The critique is not that they portray immoral content, but that the artfulness itself is immoral by having materialistic intentions. It sullies the concept of art, disrespectful to thinking audiences like smearing shit on Mona Lisa. The problem is not that shit stinks (although it does), but that it detracts from the art. Mona Lisa would be better off without the shit even if it smelled great. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
WatchTillTandava said: I concur: a lot of "traditions" have their historical reasons but they are clung to past their expiration date. I'm sure that infant foreskin removal made sense in the desert with sand potentially getting under it but then they wrote it down in a holy book as a requirement and then readers of said holy book left the desert and modern hygiene standards took over: but they still continue to do it because holy book says so.Sphinxter said: This seems really reaching to find a justification to back up morality. There are so many barriers to overcome like contraception and abortion and on top of that the dangers of inbreeding are overstated; they are in fact comparable to having children whilst having a paternal smoker which also increases the chance of mutations gametes. That the European Royal families continued to exist relatively peacefully despite generations and generations of inbreeding shows that the risks are overstated. At the height all these niggers were related to one another in many different ways. Not to mention the risk of an abnormality of the fetus or other birth complications from the pregnancy resulting from a union between first cousins is absolutely no different medically than women over 40 having a child, but no one will dare moralize against them and try to prevent or police it. It's a hypocritical double standard and a case of people having an ideology rooted in biological concerns that they themselves don't understand so they create a morality around it and hold it up as an absolute truth. It's similar to Jews and Muslims avoiding pork. Medically, it once made sense, as cooking and storage of meat was not as standardized and trichinosis risks higher, hence labeling it an unclean animal. Nowadays with modern food industry regulation it's no longer relevant but they cling to it out of tradition. Every moral or ideology dreamed up has some underlying physical-material reason and the people who espouse it often cling to it long after it's deemed irrelevant or proven moot. This is human tribalism, purposeful ignorance, and superstition at work. If you show them their biological-based arguments lack merit when exposed to modern medical science (as in the cousins' case), they will typically just put hands over ears, double down, and be content to defend their same position irrationally because it's already an ingrained belief. A lot of people are brainwashed and conditioned in this way. Good or bad, that's what ideology is. I don't believe for one moment that those that are opposed to incest are so because of the potential birth complications: a man's morality is based largely simply upon mimicking: a man sees other men get angry or disgusted by various things and copies that behavior — laughter is not the only contagious emotion. That is the only reason they have reservations about incest: they've seen others have it before them. |
It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
Short_Circut said: YossaRedMage said: Tell that to the guy who murdered John LennonArt cannot make someone commit crime. Can't tell if you're just being funny or you think you have a genuine point here. Art does not make people commit crime. It can inspire it, I'm sure. But I'm also sure there are examples of people taking inspiration from all kinds of innocuous things to do evil. You can't take the actions of one crazy person and expand that to say everyone is at risk of being turned in to criminals. That's what people who try to censor art are doing. They are treating normal people as nothing but criminals-in-waiting. It's a fundamentally misanthropic worldview. Hell, it might even be true. Most people are idiots. Or rather... most people don't think deeply about stuff. I think, given the right nurturing, most people can come to understand complex subjects, but 99% of people are just getting by and don't want to expend the mental energy. Regardless, my point is that there are people, like myself, who enjoy all sorts of morally ambiguous stuff in art and we are at no risk of becoming criminals (unless indulging in the art we enjoy becomes criminalized...). Why should we suffer because of some bad eggs? |
| “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” -Friedrich Nietzsche Aggregate scoring is bad for the anime fandom |
YossaRedMage said: To me it's a really nightmarish scenario one in which people are punished because they have the possibility of commiting a crime, as some claim it to be, which it definitely is not. Even if it were, it's complete bullshit. People would be punished not because they are commiting a crime, mind you, but because someone said they might. It's truly distopian.Short_Circut said: Tell that to the guy who murdered John Lennon Can't tell if you're just being funny or you think you have a genuine point here. Art does not make people commit crime. It can inspire it, I'm sure. But I'm also sure there are examples of people taking inspiration from all kinds of innocuous things to do evil. You can't take the actions of one crazy person and expand that to say everyone is at risk of being turned in to criminals. That's what people who try to censor art are doing. They are treating normal people as nothing but criminals-in-waiting. It's a fundamentally misanthropic worldview. Hell, it might even be true. Most people are idiots. Or rather... most people don't think deeply about stuff. I think, given the right nurturing, most people can come to understand complex subjects, but 99% of people are just getting by and don't want to expend the mental energy. Regardless, my point is that there are people, like myself, who enjoy all sorts of morally ambiguous stuff in art and we are at no risk of becoming criminals (unless indulging in the art we enjoy becomes criminalized...). Why should we suffer because of some bad eggs? |
 Leading biologist Scott Pitnick said: The bigger your 'nads, the smaller your brains |
| @Sphinxter if you expand horizons and dabble into BL, you'll come across more dads, step-dads and uncles, so the degeneracy isn't only limited to hetero content. What is surprising is I don't see the same thing happen with yuri. I'm sure they must exist, but maybe it's a good thing I haven't come across it. Other than sisters, I mean. |
CMYK said: I like how the default assumption is apparently that one does not like b.l. and that one must expand one's horizon to like it. The Lotte's Toy I mentioned also features a decent amount of b.l.@Sphinxter if you expand horizons and dabble into BL, you'll come across more dads, step-dads and uncles, so the degeneracy isn't only limited to hetero content. What is surprising is I don't see the same thing happen with yuri. I'm sure they must exist, but maybe it's a good thing I haven't come across it. Other than sisters, I mean. But yes now that you mentioned I noticed as much at least in the explicit porn department that male–female incest themes are far more often about siblings and male–male incest themes more often about parent–child. |
It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
CMYK said: Yeah, I haven't encountered any vertical incest in yuri, even if the genre does seem to have a fixation for (step)sisters. I'm not knowledgeable enough about BL to give my two cents about it though.What is surprising is I don't see the same thing happen with yuri. I'm sure they must exist, but maybe it's a good thing I haven't come across it. Other than sisters, I mean. |
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YossaRedMage said: Short_Circut said: Tell that to the guy who murdered John Lennon Can't tell if you're just being funny or you think you have a genuine point here. Art does not make people commit crime. It can inspire it, I'm sure. But I'm also sure there are examples of people taking inspiration from all kinds of innocuous things to do evil. You can't take the actions of one crazy person and expand that to say everyone is at risk of being turned in to criminals. That's what people who try to censor art are doing. They are treating normal people as nothing but criminals-in-waiting. It's a fundamentally misanthropic worldview. Hell, it might even be true. Most people are idiots. Or rather... most people don't think deeply about stuff. I think, given the right nurturing, most people can come to understand complex subjects, but 99% of people are just getting by and don't want to expend the mental energy. Regardless, my point is that there are people, like myself, who enjoy all sorts of morally ambiguous stuff in art and we are at no risk of becoming criminals (unless indulging in the art we enjoy becomes criminalized...). Why should we suffer because of some bad eggs? If only more people shared this sentiment, then the world would have a lot less hate lel But to answer your first 'question,' it was half-half, more leaning towards the joke side of things. In the case of JL though, it was indeed more of actually making him commit the crime rather than entirely inspiring it. Somewhere in the dudes crazy delusions, he believed that the author actually indirectly told him to go out and commit the murder. But yeah I don't really buy the whole idea of classifying entire groups based on the actions of few (provided the few in question act differently than the group itself) The thing is though, it's not really so much as treating people as criminals for the need to censor, but more so as to deal with the mentally unstable minority, that are more likely to become criminals themselves. Problem is those select few ends up doing things that impact the entire viewer base. Unfortunately, some people tend to take fiction/art too seriously and use it as a basis to commit malicious deeds. Hell look at Darling in the Franxx fans literally sent death threats to the director over some stupid ship that pretty much got resolved the next ep, guarantee it could've gone farther had the show not taken the direction it did. |
'On-Hold' is another way for a completionist to say 'Dropped' |
Aastra343 said: Vertical - vs. horizontal incest?CMYK said: Yeah, I haven't encountered any vertical incest in yuri, even if the genre does seem to have a fixation for (step)sisters. I'm not knowledgeable enough about BL to give my two cents about it though.What is surprising is I don't see the same thing happen with yuri. I'm sure they must exist, but maybe it's a good thing I haven't come across it. Other than sisters, I mean. I like this terminology. |
It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
Sphinxter said: Yeah, I didn't know how to call it, so I came up with these terms. However, I don't know if they are brand new.Aastra343 said: Vertical - vs. horizontal incest?Yeah, I haven't encountered any vertical incest in yuri, even if the genre does seem to have a fixation for (step)sisters. I'm not knowledgeable enough about BL to give my two cents about it though. I like this terminology. |
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Aastra343 said: I looked it up. Apparently only around 800 hits on Google ere your fine creation.Yeah, I didn't know how to call it, so I came up with these terms. However, I don't know if they are brand new. |
It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
| gonna separate fiction from reality yo - like i usually say and also its a cutural thing i heard since incest is much more accepted there in japan EDIT: quick google Why Is Incest Such A Common Topic In Anime? https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/answerman/2017-03-01/.112826 |
deg said: Also known as "Kirino's defence mechanism".gonna separate fiction from reality yo - like i usually say |
It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
| @Sphinxter lol well i added an article on my last reply explaining in an elaborate manner about this topic |
katsucats said: Dumb stuff. There was way too much to unpack there at this time of night (EU here). Ultimately, I like thinking of art in the way you do, I really do. I like reading long analysis of thematic depth and philosophical meaning. But the problem with so many of those who value that way of thinking is the snobbish, self-righteous distinction between art and 'real' art. A distinction that always involves the cold, emotionless, inhuman dismissal of the emotional side of the human condition. Clannad: After Story is a masterpiece, not because it conveys deep meaning or has anything to say which can be put in to an essay, but because it has touched so many people in a deep emotional place. It's the same with sexuality and - I hate this phrase - 'fan service'. Your snobbish, sanctimonious shaming of the sexual within art is a disease of the mind, and I really do mean that in the most offensive way possible. That worldview comes from a place of cold, envious, sexless, joyless misery which you spread to others everytime you preach your gospel, which is an apt word to use for a value system popularized by organized religion. Also you repeat a line I get so incredibly tired of hearing. The whole notion of the big bad guy in a suit who is just putting sexy girls in anime to take adavantage of poor horny teenagers. I don't know where to start with that line of thinking, I really don't. First of all, all art that brings about strong emotion is by manipulating the consumer. Now, I have no doubt you will say that art which just does that isn't as valuable as art which has deep themes or philosophical messages. That's a very childish way of thinking. Which is ironic because it is away of thinking taken up by young people to make them feel more like an intellectual, mature, adult. I imagine there are plenty of people reading this forum in their 30s like myself who went through a phase of thinking like that. Look, there is value in those things, sure, but when you grow up you will start to see that there is also value in art that just makes you feel things and not everything need to be intellectual. There is art which doesn't need essays written about it to be valuable. Second of all, a fan of sexual themes within anime aren't being taken advantage of when they buy figures anymore than a fan of rap music is being taken advantage of when they buy rap music. That is so fucking insulting. I own a ton of figures of cute girls. It's because I like cute girls. It's just more of the same judging, snobbish, "I'm better than you", pretentious crap. You're being so demeaning to people it's honestly sickening that a community like this has to put up with people like you. I wish anime fans could be better than that, I really do. People like you deserve to be called out for your anti-otaku assholery. Last of all, almost every single piece of art ever made has had a guy in a suit looking to make money somewhere behind the scenes. It's so ignorant to think otherwise. If you're worried about being taken advatnage of by people looking to make money then just don't go outside, don't watch anime or listen to music, fuck man don't do anything. Seriously consider that last piece of advise. |
YossaRedMageJun 28, 2019 4:39 PM
| “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” -Friedrich Nietzsche Aggregate scoring is bad for the anime fandom |
deg said: Most of that deals with the shows that are explicitly about incest from the start though.@Sphinxter lol well i added an article on my last reply explaining in an elaborate manner about this topic What I find far more curious is the sheer number of stories that don't have it as a central theme but at the very least have an incest subtext going around here and there. Obviously Ore.Imo. is meant to appeal to a certain demographic but it's more curious that it also ends up in things like Sword Art Online. |
It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
Sphinxter said: Now I can finally say I contributed something to the world, make good use of this newfound knowledge.Aastra343 said: I looked it up. Apparently only around 800 hits on Google ere your fine creation.Yeah, I didn't know how to call it, so I came up with these terms. However, I don't know if they are brand new. |
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Sphinxter said: WatchTillTandava said: I concur: a lot of "traditions" have their historical reasons but they are clung to past their expiration date. I'm sure that infant foreskin removal made sense in the desert with sand potentially getting under it but then they wrote it down in a holy book as a requirement and then readers of said holy book left the desert and modern hygiene standards took over: but they still continue to do it because holy book says so.Not to mention the risk of an abnormality of the fetus or other birth complications from the pregnancy resulting from a union between first cousins is absolutely no different medically than women over 40 having a child, but no one will dare moralize against them and try to prevent or police it. It's a hypocritical double standard and a case of people having an ideology rooted in biological concerns that they themselves don't understand so they create a morality around it and hold it up as an absolute truth. It's similar to Jews and Muslims avoiding pork. Medically, it once made sense, as cooking and storage of meat was not as standardized and trichinosis risks higher, hence labeling it an unclean animal. Nowadays with modern food industry regulation it's no longer relevant but they cling to it out of tradition. Every moral or ideology dreamed up has some underlying physical-material reason and the people who espouse it often cling to it long after it's deemed irrelevant or proven moot. This is human tribalism, purposeful ignorance, and superstition at work. If you show them their biological-based arguments lack merit when exposed to modern medical science (as in the cousins' case), they will typically just put hands over ears, double down, and be content to defend their same position irrationally because it's already an ingrained belief. A lot of people are brainwashed and conditioned in this way. Good or bad, that's what ideology is. I don't believe for one moment that those that are opposed to incest are so because of the potential birth complications: a man's morality is based largely simply upon mimicking: a man sees other men get angry or disgusted by various things and copies that behavior — laughter is not the only contagious emotion. That is the only reason they have reservations about incest: they've seen others have it before them. That's actually quite interesting thing to say and definitely true, at least to an extent. I mean, the very idea seems to be so taboo, that I probably wouldn't even dare to mention the topic IRL to almost anyone. You're bound to be considered a creep by trying to argue for it. Hell, not even by that, just questioning whether it's really something bad would be enough to give you nasty looks. Yet, I'm pretty sure, most if not all wouldn't be able to come with any defense besides the kids issue (which by the way is heavily exaggerated, and the risk is not limited just to incestous pregnancy, not to mention easily worked around), or even agree if they actually gave the matter the thought it deserves and actually challenged their indoctrinated morallity. I consider the thing little different than people from heavily religious upbringing (or even from the culture of their country) being so against homosexuality and considering it 'wrong' by principle. So yeah, I definitely agree that it can often be the reason, but another matter is not necessarily related to the cultural taboo, but just the way you most often hear about incest - in cases of sexual abuse in family. People raping their children and all that. And this is definitely a very disgusting thing, even if what makes it bad is the pedophilia and rape/abuse itself, rather than them being related. You very rarely hear stories of consenting adults engaging in incest, so I believe people subconsciously link the matter with sexual abuse and it might make them feel the disgust and discomfort before they even actually consider the incest itself, in vacuum, without the issues that are bad regardless if they happen to come together with incest. They won't stop to think that incest is not always these things, and should be considered by itself. |
ImaishiJun 28, 2019 4:50 PM
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Sphinxter said: deg said: Most of that deals with the shows that are explicitly about incest from the start though.@Sphinxter lol well i added an article on my last reply explaining in an elaborate manner about this topic What I find far more curious is the sheer number of stories that don't have it as a central theme but at the very least have an incest subtext going around here and there. Obviously Ore.Imo. is meant to appeal to a certain demographic but it's more curious that it also ends up in things like Sword Art Online. its applicable to it too but if you want to be strict with the topic then i rest my case |
| Incest is the best, put your sis- Seriously though, it's not my place to attempt to regulate or criticize freedom of expression in anime. There should be titles for everyone. |
| "No, son, you may not have your body pillow at the dinner table!" |
katsucats said: YossaRedMage said: Growing up, sometimes people would express that they wish they had a sister. The people who actually have sisters would immediately contradict that idea, and say that it's not all that great. Of course, people who don't have sisters never experience having a girl of similar age who's a family member, the lack of any attraction in that regard, and the trials that come with it. They imagine any girl projected into the convenience of proximity. The fantasy doesn't last 13-24 years. It doesn't consider the progression up to the point where sexual closeness is imagined. It's as if the situation spontaneously starts in a "play house".All morality-based critique of art is worthless, in my opinion. In my opinion, that's the genesis of the incest fetish, and the segment of frustrated teenagers that anime sometimes cater to. The shows are often exploiting these perverse fantasies for sales. It is their shtick, their moe. The morality is not the problem here, but the artistic intent. In 1917, Marcel Duchamp submitted a toilet converted into a water fountain into a museum art display. The imagery was distinctively foul, and many argued that it was immoral. No doubt, that's the foundation of your sentiment that art has no morality. I agree. Duchamp's artistic message was to call into question what art was. In those days, art was defined as anything that had subjective value and no other utility. His argument was that the Fountain satisfied those requirements to be called art. Despite the distaste, people eventually recognized the romance of these grand narratives in the modern movement. Incest in anime is similar in that it's distasteful, but different in that there's no grand objective, no message conveyed, it is merely a gimmick that distracts from the remainder of the work, pandering to a segment of fans for increased sales. "Fan service". Entire anime shows have been created to offer nothing new, but to mix and match character traits to sell DVDs and figurines. It is possible to take a postmodernist perspective and say that art doesn't even need to communicate anything. It can just be basic shit, a genuine imitation like Andy Warhol copying and pasting Campbell soups. To some extent, even that's true. There is no argument that anything can be art to some people. But there is art, and then there is art. When someone marvels at a work and proclaims, "This is art!", do they merely mean that they are observing a stick figure? Or is there a deeper message that conveys something powerful. Is incest anime closer to a stick figure, or is it art? That depends on an individual's values. But I think it is fine to say that some artworks are of low quality, are uninspiring, common, derivative, and lacks merit. The critique is not that they portray immoral content, but that the artfulness itself is immoral by having materialistic intentions. It sullies the concept of art, disrespectful to thinking audiences like smearing shit on Mona Lisa. The problem is not that shit stinks (although it does), but that it detracts from the art. Mona Lisa would be better off without the shit even if it smelled great. Comparing pre-capitalism art to post-capitalism art is going to get you nowhere without accounting for the new state art finds itself in this new economic system. After the industrial revolution, art found itself without meaning. Before, it was a product of intelectual exercise, something that could be learnt from others knowlegeable enough in the field, something you have a master and a alumnus (ars, craft). More importantly, those who consumed art were the ones who also had expertise to understand all intertext between different works and the references risen thereof. For capitalism, art has no value if it cannot be sold. With the possible consumer of art being broaden to the whole middle class, no longer did all intertext and references accumulated throughout the centuries matter. Initially, the middle class started reading journey books instead of the canon literature, because reading about places they never went to didn't require much artistic knowledge to be enjoyed. Therefore, art, to be valued as a product, had to appeal to its public, otherwise it wouldn't sell and if it didn't sell, it had no value inside capitalism. That's why artists had to become brands themselves and their art, the product to be sold. What I mean by all this? Saying there are different values to different types of art because some try to appeal to the consumer instead of to the artistic craft is prepotent. Of course art will try to sell, everything will try to sell under capitalism. Without that prior meaning (the one of intelectual exercise), art has been seeking its new purpose for over a century. The russian formalists believed in art for the sake of art, ignoring all the consensus of the time that art should be political, given the social conflicts of soviet Russia. Malarmé on the other hand wanted to defy the boundaries of poetry and explore the entirety of the paper. Beatniks thought that if art wasn't political it had no purpose. There's no consensus on if art should have deeper meaning and convey impactful messages. The only consensus, it seems, is that it lost the meaning it had before. Saying art is meaningless if it has materialistic intentions is so idealistic that it seems almost naive to me. Obviously all art nowadays has materialistic intentions. No artist produces art they think won't sell. Even those artists who mostly don't do "popular" art have buyers and want to appeal to those buyers, otherwise they won't be able to pay the bills. If you enter the debate whether art is more valuable when it appeals to an intelectual elite or when it appeals to the public, you'll be missing the point. Art is still seeking its new place in this new order of things, but certainly art aims to stay alive despite its lack of purpose. |
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My bad, I skimmed your list pretty quickly and didn't see any recognizable bl titles. I brought it up since you mentioned being surprised at finding something (Lotte's Toy) with a parent. Hence the dabbling :p |
As someone having a sister, totally not a fan of incest. Most of the time, when people talk about incest, they think of sister. Now that this anime is coming, I wonder if incest image will change in MAL. |
YossaRedMage said: On the other hand, it's the embrace of emotion that causes one to appreciate art. You sound like someone that turns your brain off when you watch anime so you could feel good watching anime like a ketamine hit.katsucats said: There was way too much to unpack there at this time of night (EU here). Ultimately, I like thinking of art in the way you do, I really do. I like reading long analysis of thematic depth and philosophical meaning. But the problem with so many of those who value that way of thinking is the snobbish, self-righteous distinction between art and 'real' art. A distinction that always involves the cold, emotionless, inhuman dismissal of the emotional side of the human condition. Dumb stuff. YossaRedMage said: Something that emotionally reaches people must convey some deep meaning. People do not derive value from the meaningless.Clannad: After Story is a masterpiece, not because it conveys deep meaning or has anything to say which can be put in to an essay, but because it has touched so many people in a deep emotional place. YossaRedMage said: The problem is not sex in itself, but unexamined, shallow sex. Fanservice does not embrace sexuality unless your definition of sexuality is desperately trying to cum through masturbation. Unfortunately, your black and white hyperbolic rant renders you blind to nuance. That's why it seems in your mind there's a kind of epic showdown between any trite delivery of sex against a religious prude. It's hard to deliver a point to someone who watched 50 Shades of Grey in literally black and white, so I'm not going to even try.It's the same with sexuality and - I hate this phrase - 'fan service'. Your snobbish, sanctimonious shaming of the sexual within art is a disease of the mind, and I really do mean that in the most offensive way possible. That worldview comes from a place of cold, envious, sexless, joyless misery which you spread to others everytime you preach your gospel, which is an apt word to use for a value system popularized by organized religion. YossaRedMage said: You can start by analysis, but you have deliberately turned that off as you admitted early up in this post.Also you repeat a line I get so incredibly tired of hearing. The whole notion of the big bad guy in a suit who is just putting sexy girls in anime to take adavantage of poor horny teenagers. I don't know where to start with that line of thinking, I really don't. YossaRedMage said: Yes, because every artist that ever sought to empower someone through them, including all manga authors and anime artists, are mere children. What a worthless sentiment.First of all, all art that brings about strong emotion is by manipulating the consumer. Now, I have no doubt you will say that art which just does that isn't as valuable as art which has deep themes or philosophical messages. That's a very childish way of thinking. Which is ironic because it is away of thinking taken up by young people to make them feel more like an intellectual, mature, adult. YossaRedMage said: An appeal to age. You sound like someone in your 50s, a cranky old fart. You have no idea how old I am either.I imagine there are plenty of people reading this forum in their 30s like myself who went through a phase of thinking like that. Look, there is value in those things, sure, but when you grow up you will start to see that there is also value in art that just makes you feel things and not everything need to be intellectual. There is art which doesn't need essays written about it to be valuable. YossaRedMage said: I never said the fans are being taken advantage of. I said the art is being taken advantage of.Second of all, a fan of sexual themes within anime aren't being taken advantage of when they buy figures anymore than a fan of rap music is being taken advantage of when they buy rap music. That is so fucking insulting. YossaRedMage said: The cats out of the bag. I think I must have unwittingly struck a nerve against this 30 year old man with figurines of cute girls. I didn't mean to expose your pedophilia, I promise.I own a ton of figures of cute girls. It's because I like cute girls. It's just more of the same judging, snobbish, "I'm better than you", pretentious crap. You're being so demeaning to people it's honestly sickening that a community like this has to put up with people like you. I wish anime fans could be better than that, I really do. People like you deserve to be called out for your anti-otaku assholery. YossaRedMage said: This is such an ignorant, broad stroke that diminishes the value and motivation of anyone who ever poured countless hours into your primary consumption that I had to bold it, for posterity. I do think otherwise. As someone who studied engineering, I actually care about improving the world. I didn't just do it for the money. Common cynics such as yourself are pitiful.Last of all, almost every single piece of art ever made has had a guy in a suit looking to make money somewhere behind the scenes. It's so ignorant to think otherwise. YossaRedMage said: I'm not worried at all. I'm not even worried that online lame-o's take a piece of anime analysis, of all things, personally and explode in this rant that implicates the entire medium itself. I mean how pathetic do you have to be to hate anime so much. Maybe you claim to love something you hate because of the low self esteem.If you're worried about being taken advatnage of by people looking to make money then just don't go outside, don't watch anime or listen to music, fuck man don't do anything. Seriously consider that last piece of advise. You sound like the kind of person who calls detailed, "objective" analysis, which is ironically the ultimate inner exploration, "dumb stuff" because you feel intimidated. When 4K resolution revealed the actors' skin pores, that brought an ugly dimension you shoved under the rug in your shallow admiration of anime. The extent that you are in touch with your "emotional side of the human condition" is like mastering swimming at the kiddie pool. That's why you denigrate anyone who explores the deep side, projecting your cognitive dissonance. My original post on this topic was inspired by what you said but it wasn't a direct response. Since you're baring yourself naked on the table, I can't say I mind taking a snapshot, for the art. |
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Sphinxter said: Why is there always at the very least an incest subplot or incest subtext where one least expects it? I sure would hate to be morally uncomfortable with it because it pops up everywhere often many episodes in. The answer by the way is of course "yes" — incest is delicious. Any anime without incest in it is a failure lol. |
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| I take incest over gay and traps everyday of the week. (and yes I know traps aren't gay but my point still stands) Gorochu said: As someone having a sister, totally not a fan of incest. Most of the time, when people talk about incest, they think of sister. Now that this anime is coming, I wonder if incest image will change in MAL. There is no incest in this series |
YossaRedMage said: The discussion about moralizing is super interesting to me. All morality-based critique of art is worthless, in my opinion. There is no imperative for art to be moral. To be entertaining, to be interesting, to challenge, to make us feel emotion and to think, but... to be moral? Why restrict the range of expression? Art is the sum of human expression. By restricting what is 'OK' to express... it's just backwards. Art cannot make someone commit crime. And just because a piece of art portrays something in a positive light, and even if lots of people think of it in a positive light within the context of that work... It still isn't an endoresment of that same thing in a different, real life context. And seriously... what sort of fucking boring person do you have to be to have to morally agree with everything in a work of art? I'm reminded of a famous bar from Eminem that is quoted in the rock and roll hall of fame's greatest 200 albums of all time list: Wake up, get a sense of humor Quit tryin' to censor music: this is for your kid's amusement But don't blame me when little Eric jumps off of the terrace You shoulda been watchin' him, apparently you ain't parents -Never Knew, Eminem One of the greatest purposes of art is to challenge you and often times, to challenge your deep seated beliefs. One thing I find interesting is the dichotomy between what people often believe is normal and what becomes normal when you've watched a lot of anime. America treats the whole issue of teachers having sex with students as a predation issue. Teachers who have sex with high school students, even if its consensual, are literally considered to be sexual predators almost on the level of pedophilia. Teachers can go to prison for a long time for this. With female teachers having sex with male students, there are some guys who don't think its a big deal. But female teachers still get their lives ruined by this kind of thing. If female teachers have it bad though, almost nobody seems to debate the idea that a male teacher having sex with a 16 or 17 year old girl is not predatory somehow. Even in college nowadays, male professors having sex with female students are considered semi-predatory even if they aren't doing anything illegal. If you talk to most Americans, there's a huge taboo against even saying that high school students can probably consent most of the time. But what I find fascinating, is what happens when Americans watch anime. I've seen several animes now where teachers date and hookup with their students. Both male teachers and female teachers are shown dating and hooking up with 15, 16 and 17 year old students, and while its clear that the school officials treat it as inappropriate, its never treated as predatory, its usually treated as a kind of normal thing. Because when a male teacher in anime gets fired for dating a female student, often times the male teacher is presented sympathetically, or at the very least, he is shown as any other human being who likes somebody and wants to be with them rather than being shown as a monstrous sexual predator who raped an underage girl. The girls in anime are never shown being like "omg I was abused and taken advantage of!" Often times, they are just as sad to see these relationships end as they would be to see any other relationship end. This is in complete contrast to the American belief that teenage girls will be deeply traumatized by having sex with an older person (which, I honestly think is stupid). What I find really fascinating though, is that Americans, despite all their deep seated beliefs against anything regarding older people having sex with teenagers, suddenly start treating these relationships in anime as kind of normal too. If you look at the comments, nobody blasts the male teachers as sexual predators in the animes where this happens, they, maybe even just for the moment, treat it as normal just like the Japanese do. It really goes to show though how very few people seem capable of thinking for themselves. The very same people watching that, might argue a week later that a male teacher dating a female high school student is a pedophile despite having seen an example where it clearly was not sexual predation. Yet all it took for that programming to be broken, however temporarily, was to just see somebody treat it as normal. This is why art is fascinating, and its why controversial art is often some of the best and most powerful forms of art. Its also why I love consuming art that is distinctly foreign because learning about the cultures of foreign countries does a lot to put your own country's culture and beliefs into perspective. |
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| Necessary? No, but without anime imoutos lustfully chasing after me and calling me Onii-chan, my interest in anime might have dwindled a long time ago |
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| It's one of the best fetishes because of the forbidden love thing, but I can see why most people would avoid it. I think a lot of people take fiction too seriously though. I wonder why fetish shaming in this community usually revolves around incest and lolis, those are pretty tame actually compared to most other Japanese fetishes. |
Blarey said: It's one of the best fetishes because of the forbidden love thing, but I can see why most people would avoid it. I think a lot of people take fiction too seriously though. I wonder why fetish shaming in this community usually revolves around incest and lolis, those are pretty tame actually compared to most other Japanese fetishes. Okay, I'm gonna go ahead and say this. I still don't get where this "Japan and their wacky fetishes" stereotype comes from? How is Japan any weirder than we are? I mean, the city near where I live, which is not even a major city, its a completely average sized city, apparently has a BDSM fetish club where people do kinky shit out in the open. I don't know too many specifics, I only heard it from my therapist because she was mentioning how a lot of "normal people" are strange but I know its legit. And if you link to some obscure hentai somewhere, I mean, there's a whole bunch of bizarre porn out there that we created too so that really doesn't prove anything. A country with a population of 125 million people is bound to make some weird stuff. From the porn I have seen though, Japan's porn doesn't seem any more strange than any other country's porn other than the fact that they tend to look a lot more awkward when having sex but that's not a fetish. |
Ryuk9428Jun 29, 2019 12:38 AM
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| I don't understand. Why would anyone want to watch a show with incest? Am i missing something here? |
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Ryuk9428 said: Blarey said: It's one of the best fetishes because of the forbidden love thing, but I can see why most people would avoid it. I think a lot of people take fiction too seriously though. I wonder why fetish shaming in this community usually revolves around incest and lolis, those are pretty tame actually compared to most other Japanese fetishes. Okay, I'm gonna go ahead and say this. I still don't get where this "Japan and their wacky fetishes" stereotype comes from? How is Japan any weirder than we are? I mean, the city near where I live, which is not even a major city, its a completely average sized city, apparently has a BDSM fetish club where people do kinky shit out in the open. I don't know too many specifics, I only heard it from my therapist because she was mentioning how a lot of "normal people" are strange but I know its legit. And if you link to some obscure hentai somewhere, I mean, there's a whole bunch of bizarre porn out there that we created too so that really doesn't prove anything. A country with a population of 125 million people is bound to make some weird stuff. From the porn I have seen though, Japan's porn doesn't seem any more strange than any other country's porn other than the fact that they tend to look a lot more awkward when having sex but that's not a fetish. Well, considering hentai manga and videos can be bought at local convenience stores says enough about that topic. Not to mention many of the sexual taboos that have defined western society and law, are non-existent in Japan. Sure, if you delve deep enough into porn, there's some weird fetishes out there, but Japan is the only country I know of that is as open about it. There's stuff like fantasy love motels, host clubs, bondage venues, sex doll rentals, and S&M. How about "Oshouji" which is an ancient tradition and refers to the writing of degrading words in calligraphy on your partner or how BDSM is considered an art form and has a history dating all the way back to the Edo period. In regards to my post, I was mostly talking about hentai anyway. Loli and incest is more vanilla compared to stuff like guro, scat, rape, ugly bastard, tentacles, etc. All of which show up pretty often in hentai as well. Although, I guess most people who would complain about fetishes appearing in anime and manga, likely don't watch hentai anyway. |
Blarey said: Ryuk9428 said: Okay, I'm gonna go ahead and say this. I still don't get where this "Japan and their wacky fetishes" stereotype comes from? How is Japan any weirder than we are? I mean, the city near where I live, which is not even a major city, its a completely average sized city, apparently has a BDSM fetish club where people do kinky shit out in the open. I don't know too many specifics, I only heard it from my therapist because she was mentioning how a lot of "normal people" are strange but I know its legit. And if you link to some obscure hentai somewhere, I mean, there's a whole bunch of bizarre porn out there that we created too so that really doesn't prove anything. A country with a population of 125 million people is bound to make some weird stuff. From the porn I have seen though, Japan's porn doesn't seem any more strange than any other country's porn other than the fact that they tend to look a lot more awkward when having sex but that's not a fetish. Well, considering hentai manga and videos can be bought at local convenience stores says enough about that topic. Not to mention many of the sexual taboos that have defined western society and law, are non-existent in Japan. Sure, if you delve deep enough into porn, there's some weird fetishes out there, but Japan is the only country I know of that is as open about it. There's stuff like fantasy love motels, host clubs, bondage venues, sex doll rentals, and S&M. How about "Oshouji" which is an ancient tradition and refers to the writing of degrading words in calligraphy on your partner or how BDSM is considered an art form and has a history dating all the way back to the Edo period. In regards to my post, I was mostly talking about hentai anyway. Loli and incest is more vanilla compared to stuff like guro, scat, rape, ugly bastard, tentacles, etc. All of which show up pretty often in hentai as well. Although, I guess most people who would complain about fetishes appearing in anime and manga, likely don't watch hentai anyway. To me that's more to do with the fact that the Japanese tend to buy physical forms of pornography more so than it has anything to do with fetishes being more prevalent or extreme there. Certain sexual taboos aren't fetishes either. A fetish is when you eroticize something that isn't normally thought of as erotic. Meanwhile though, I searched up "Japanese fetishes" and the thigh between schoolgirls knee socks and skirt appeared to be the most popular result which is really not a fetish. Being attracted to girls' thighs is called being a heterosexual guy. The love hotels and host clubs and brothels are more related to having sex establishments. It doesn't have anything to do with fetishes. Again, fetish is when you make something erotic that isn't normally thought of as such. Love hotels are just a place for people to have sex. The sex doll thing is more related to them being lonely and socially awkward. Its not really that weird when you consider that an inanimate object is better than being forced to go without sex. Given that sex dolls are purposely made to look sexy though, its not really a fetish. America, Canada, and Britain were the ones who went nuts over 50 Shades of Grey. If that isn't being public about your fetishes I don't know what is. And the hentai I've watched really isn't any weirder than normal porn. There's a lot more evidence actually to say that rich Saudi Arabians have the most extreme fetishes. You want to read some stuff that'll actually make you want to vomit, read about what rich Saudi guys do. Even some Western women who've claimed to be liberated kinksters have been utterly shocked at what happens behind closed doors in Saudi palaces. https://metro.co.uk/2018/10/29/saudi-arabian-wild-sex-parties-leave-posh-hotel-rooms-covered-in-human-faeces-8085068/ |
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Ryuk9428 said: Blarey said: Well, considering hentai manga and videos can be bought at local convenience stores says enough about that topic. Not to mention many of the sexual taboos that have defined western society and law, are non-existent in Japan. Sure, if you delve deep enough into porn, there's some weird fetishes out there, but Japan is the only country I know of that is as open about it. There's stuff like fantasy love motels, host clubs, bondage venues, sex doll rentals, and S&M. How about "Oshouji" which is an ancient tradition and refers to the writing of degrading words in calligraphy on your partner or how BDSM is considered an art form and has a history dating all the way back to the Edo period. In regards to my post, I was mostly talking about hentai anyway. Loli and incest is more vanilla compared to stuff like guro, scat, rape, ugly bastard, tentacles, etc. All of which show up pretty often in hentai as well. Although, I guess most people who would complain about fetishes appearing in anime and manga, likely don't watch hentai anyway. To me that's more to do with the fact that the Japanese tend to buy physical forms of pornography more so than it has anything to do with fetishes being more prevalent or extreme there. Certain sexual taboos aren't fetishes either. A fetish is when you eroticize something that isn't normally thought of as erotic. Meanwhile though, I searched up "Japanese fetishes" and the thigh between schoolgirls knee socks and skirt appeared to be the most popular result which is really not a fetish. Being attracted to girls' thighs is called being a heterosexual guy. The love hotels and host clubs and brothels are more related to having sex establishments. It doesn't have anything to do with fetishes. Again, fetish is when you make something erotic that isn't normally thought of as such. Love hotels are just a place for people to have sex. The sex doll thing is more related to them being lonely and socially awkward. Its not really that weird when you consider that an inanimate object is better than being forced to go without sex. Given that sex dolls are purposely made to look sexy though, its not really a fetish. America, Canada, and Britain were the ones who went nuts over 50 Shades of Grey. If that isn't being public about your fetishes I don't know what is. And the hentai I've watched really isn't any weirder than normal porn. There's a lot more evidence actually to say that rich Saudi Arabians have the most extreme fetishes. You want to read some stuff that'll actually make you want to vomit, read about what rich Saudi guys do. Even some Western women who've claimed to be liberated kinksters have been utterly shocked at what happens behind closed doors in Saudi palaces. https://metro.co.uk/2018/10/29/saudi-arabian-wild-sex-parties-leave-posh-hotel-rooms-covered-in-human-faeces-8085068/ I'm not saying that Japan is more messed up than other countries just that they are more open about such fetishes and have more pornographic content, even such fetishes like bondage are enriched in their history. If you think hentai is not any weirder than normal porn then you have not watched very much hentai. Just a reminder here that I was never saying anything degrading about Japanese people or their fetishes, I only wanted to defend incest by bringing up some of the weirder stuff than incest that no one ever says anything about. I started mentioning bondage venues only to remind that Japan has some societal differences to the west. |
BlareyJun 29, 2019 1:33 AM
| Incest is disgusting and atrovious no matter what, but whatever they say, "Incest is Winecest." |
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| the answer is you have to have a mental problem to enjoy incest, or not have any siblings. incest in anime is shit and makes no sense and worsen the anime. such horrible subtext. terrible. |
Blarey said: Ryuk9428 said: To me that's more to do with the fact that the Japanese tend to buy physical forms of pornography more so than it has anything to do with fetishes being more prevalent or extreme there. Certain sexual taboos aren't fetishes either. A fetish is when you eroticize something that isn't normally thought of as erotic. Meanwhile though, I searched up "Japanese fetishes" and the thigh between schoolgirls knee socks and skirt appeared to be the most popular result which is really not a fetish. Being attracted to girls' thighs is called being a heterosexual guy. The love hotels and host clubs and brothels are more related to having sex establishments. It doesn't have anything to do with fetishes. Again, fetish is when you make something erotic that isn't normally thought of as such. Love hotels are just a place for people to have sex. The sex doll thing is more related to them being lonely and socially awkward. Its not really that weird when you consider that an inanimate object is better than being forced to go without sex. Given that sex dolls are purposely made to look sexy though, its not really a fetish. America, Canada, and Britain were the ones who went nuts over 50 Shades of Grey. If that isn't being public about your fetishes I don't know what is. And the hentai I've watched really isn't any weirder than normal porn. There's a lot more evidence actually to say that rich Saudi Arabians have the most extreme fetishes. You want to read some stuff that'll actually make you want to vomit, read about what rich Saudi guys do. Even some Western women who've claimed to be liberated kinksters have been utterly shocked at what happens behind closed doors in Saudi palaces. https://metro.co.uk/2018/10/29/saudi-arabian-wild-sex-parties-leave-posh-hotel-rooms-covered-in-human-faeces-8085068/ I'm not saying that Japan is more messed up than other countries just that they are more open about such fetishes and have more pornographic content, even such fetishes like bondage are enriched in their history. If you think hentai is not any weirder than normal porn then you have not watched very much hentai. Just a reminder here that I was never saying anything degrading about Japanese people or their fetishes, I only wanted to defend incest by bringing up some of the weirder fetishes than incest that no one ever says anything about. I started mentioning taboos only to remind that Japan has some societal differences to the west. My conversation style runs from being super, weirdly formal, to really blunt. Idk why I have no middle ground but I hardly ever consider anything in the way of offensive, I just question things a lot. Don't worry. Its not just from you, I've seen this stereotype mentioned in many parts of the internet and I'm trying to figure out if there's any real validity to it. A lot of stereotypes do come from reality but as far as I can tell, there doesn't seem to be any basis for this one besides some hentais being really weird. One thing worth noting is that hentai is animated, which means it could've all been created by one weirdo in his basement who uploaded it to the internet somewhere whereas real porn has to have a director, and actors/actresses willing to do whatever is being filmed. This could explain why hentai can be pretty strange sometimes. The more indie you go and the less people need to be involved to make it happen, the more you run into the bizarre. This being said, all the porn I watch, hentai or not hentai, is all very vanilla because I specifically look for vanilla stuff and don't have any interest in the really bizarre stuff so I've never looked for it. When I see genre tags on hentai websites they all look pretty standard. But I know there's probably some really underground stuff that's harder to find and is exceptionally bizarre. |
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| Nothing is necessary to be portrayed, but that's no excuse to not do that. There is no taboo topic in art to me. Expect the thing about anime is that incest is often there just to satisfy some people's fetish and is executed with some bs not actually blood related so it's okay. But same shit I have seen on TV soap operas to cause drama in relationship. So yea I don't believe they're that important influences culturally so it's not like we'd lose much tbh. Finding animanga that treats incest realistically or actually in interesting way and not be a pussy is hard af. Imaishi said: So yeah, I definitely agree that it can often be the reason, but another matter is not necessarily related to the cultural taboo, but just the way you most often hear about incest - in cases of sexual abuse in family. People raping their children and all that. And this is definitely a very disgusting thing, even if what makes it bad is the pedophilia and rape/abuse itself, rather than them being related. You very rarely hear stories of consenting adults engaging in incest, so I believe people subconsciously link the matter with sexual abuse and it might make them feel the disgust and discomfort before they even actually consider the incest itself, in vacuum, without the issues that are bad regardless if they happen to come together with incest. They won't stop to think that incest is not always these things, and should be considered by itself. I don't think people need to really ponder on if incest is a okay, when we already have psychologists who will tell us damages incest abuse causes to the victim and in what kind of situation incest often occurs. Typically it's sibling-sibling case that includes child-on-child sexual abuse (older sibling abusing younger sibling, so it could be argued there is power inequality at play), then comes parent-child abuse. "Normally" so called consensual incest happens with blood relatives who haven't known each other before adulthood and haven't develop family bond with each other, those get some times reported in media and usually their children are taken to custody. |
konkeloJun 29, 2019 2:06 AM
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| As an objective moral is literally impossible without a God, if you are an atheist, there's REALLY no argument that you can find that denies incest. That's it. |
 In most cases, the MAL Average Scores don't mean anything, here is a question: were the works made before 2000 all shit? Why are they so damn scarce in the Top 50? Think about how MAL is quite literally a filtered amount of the Anime fanbase. Here's a timeline of the Top 15 in which you can check that, almost always, the scores are affected by the freshness, popularity and other factors that have nothing to do with quality. |
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