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Jun 13, 2019 5:34 PM
#1

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Jul 2016
13
Why?

I genuinely don't understand.

Isn't it better for us viewers/readers to not be prepared for a character's death?

It will come off as much more impactful if we aren't able to spot it from a mile away.

Why do we always have to know that tomorrow they will finally reunite with their daughter or tomorrow they will finally confess their feelings for their beloved one?

Instead we always get spoiled by lines like this, which ruins it for me personally.

I'm curious about your thoughts on this, I will of course read all of the replies :)

Jun 13, 2019 5:37 PM
#2

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Nov 2008
10508
Honestly, I agree and I don't really know why they try to make it SUPER obvious....

......unless it's to prepare you. xD I take death better when I'm prepared for it than when it's SPRUNG on me out of nowhere. :(

....still sucks butt either way.



Jun 13, 2019 5:44 PM
#3

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Jul 2016
13
I also take death better when I am prepared for it (most of us do lol), but when I watch anime I prefer when it's sprung on me out of nowhere :)
Unko-Jun 13, 2019 5:49 PM
Jun 13, 2019 5:56 PM
#4
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Jul 2018
564612
If you don't foreshadow every single event that takes place, someone will cry and call it bad writing.
Jun 13, 2019 6:32 PM
#5

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Jul 2016
13
RogertheShrubber said:

Also it's odd to call this a "spoiler" since after all it was clearly intentional, you were meant to suspect or know of the coming demise of a character, there is likely an artistic reason this was done.


Why is it odd to call it a spoiler? Sure it may be intentional but it's still a spoiler nonetheless.

If you have watched an entire series not knowing the fate of a certain character until a random death flag pops up, counts as a spoiler for me.
RogertheShrubber said:


And finally perhaps they are simply not interested in the impact a sudden unexpected death would create in the audience. Since after all such a thing is extremely common and frankly overdone in my opinion.


How is this common and overdone? You and I clearly don't read/watch the same manga/anime recommend me some lol.


RogertheShrubber said:
I definitely wouldn't say this accounts for all circumstances of death flagging but it occurs to me that they might be done by the creator in order to direct the viewers attention as they would have it. For example in American Beauty or Sunset Boulevard, it begins by clearly stating that the main character does not survive the story. There are many other examples of "En Media Res" where character deaths are stated at the outset. This is done often times to call the viewers attention to the sequence of events which led up to this inevitable end rather than construct events chronologically only seeing causality once they have passed. This can build tension as well as cast otherwise mundane or uninteresting events in a far more captivating light and change ones interpretation of events through its specific context.


I thought it was obvious but sorry for not being clear enough.

I wasn't talking about works like those that you mentioned here, where death is stated from the get go.

Those type of stories usually has the death of a certain character revealed at the very start and that usually serves as the main plot point of the story. Which is not a death flag in my opinion.
Unko-Jun 13, 2019 6:55 PM
Jun 13, 2019 6:34 PM
#6

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Jul 2016
13
Nicholaevich said:
If you don't foreshadow every single event that takes place, someone will cry and call it bad writing.


Yeah there are certainly people who feel that way, I am not one of them at least.
Jun 13, 2019 7:32 PM
#7

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Feb 2012
3769
Nicholaevich said:
If you don't foreshadow every single event that takes place, someone will cry and call it bad writing.


Based Tomino, the master of death writing.
Jun 13, 2019 7:37 PM
#8

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Jun 2012
6488
Do death flags even happen anymore? I see flags getting mocked a lot in some self-aware kind of jokes in anime all the time. I don't even want to get into the whole self-aware as a joke thing, but haven't anime in the past few years completely strayed from the typical death flag kind of predicaments and developments? Have I missed something when I was playing solitaire on my phone while watching a boring show?
I'm also filled with pure-hearted ulterior motives.

Jun 13, 2019 7:39 PM
#9
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Jul 2018
564612
Unko- said:
Nicholaevich said:
If you don't foreshadow every single event that takes place, someone will cry and call it bad writing.


Yeah there are certainly people who feel that way, I am not one of them at least.


I used to feel that way until I got my head out of my ass. Sometimes lack of foreshadowing allows for better immersion with the character(s) since you're on the same level of knowledge as them. Also, everything being known beforehand can be boring.
Jun 13, 2019 9:03 PM

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Oct 2017
280
i wouldn't say a necessity but some series need those kind of stakes and tension to drive the story forward and to keep the watcher engaged
Jun 14, 2019 12:08 AM

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May 2018
10494
Two different issues here.
- Badly executed foreshadowing. The technique is a bit hard to pull but this doesn't stop people trying to use it again and again. I am under the impression that it fails 90% of the time.
- Actually the most frequent case is bad/cliche writing. You can see what is coming from miles not because the author want you to but because you recognise the pattern.
And this is for all the types of flags - they are mostly not intended.
alshuJun 14, 2019 4:53 AM
Jun 14, 2019 4:23 AM

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Jul 2016
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RogertheShrubber said:
Unko- said:


Why is it odd to call it a spoiler? Sure it may be intentional but it's still a spoiler nonetheless.

If you have watched an entire series not knowing the fate of a certain character until a random death flag pops up, counts as a spoiler for me.


How is this common and overdone? You and I clearly don't read/watch the same manga/anime recommend me some lol.




I thought it was obvious but sorry for not being clear enough.

I wasn't talking about works like those that you mentioned here, where death is stated from the get go.

Those type of stories usually has the death of a certain character revealed at the very start and that usually serves as the main plot point of the story. Which is not a death flag in my opinion.


It's not a spoiler because it was intended to be viewed as it was presented. If there were no death flag then presumably it would not be true to the creators vision. The fact that you don't appreciate it changes nothing, it is the way it was intended to be and it serves whatever purpose it was intended to serve. I would recommend seeking what that purpose might be and I think you'll find yourself appreciating death flags more (at least when they are used properly).

It's common and overdone in so many modern series, attack on titan is a great example as is game of thrones, the walking dead and so many others. It's a common writing crutch to use character deaths to carry the plot forward and frankly I find it cheap and uninspired not to mention trite. What's more They are almost always played up for shock value, something which I could not care less about if I tried.

All of the reasoning I give for what purpose overt forshadowing can serve also applies to what you are talking about I just decided to speak in terms of the simplest examples I could think of to make my points.



You and I clearly have different opinions on the matter.

I prefer how death is presented in attack on titan and game of thrones.

Death in those shows is always present because the setting in GOT and AOT is supposed to be cruel and unapologetic.

Some death are certainly only for shock value but most of them are not in my opinion.

GOT's last season is a prime example of what I hate.

GOT was a series where anyone could die due to the harsh world that the story is set in, but the last season changed that. Everyone suddenly got plot armour and it ruined it for me personally.
Unko-Jun 14, 2019 5:08 AM
Jun 14, 2019 4:26 AM

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haunted said:
You know what’s coming but not WHEN, and the creator is hoping you’ll be left in suspense, anxious and tense, until the character finally dies. Then they want you to be sad. Most of the time, death flags are just things that close out a character’s arc and give them a satisfying death. In the specific examples you gave, it’s sort of cheap emotional manipulation to build tension but also, IMO, to deliberately make the death less disruptive to the viewer’s experience. They’re easing you into it. It won’t be a satisfying death but they don’t want it to turn your view of their work upside down.

Versus the shock death that catches you entirely off guard and either destroys you or makes you laugh. Most media isn’t hardcore or cruel enough to want to do this, or to pull it off if they try.

Both kinds are good sometimes and bad sometimes.



My favourite response thus far, thanks for your insight on the matter.
Jun 14, 2019 4:26 AM

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Apr 2017
897
I don't really agree. I think DF are something good. They prepare the death of a character and for me at least, make it more impactful that the usual "Shingeki no Kyojin death" where one dies completely random.
I don't really like random deaths, they make them feel useless imho.
Jun 14, 2019 4:30 AM

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Holybaptiser said:
Do death flags even happen anymore? I see flags getting mocked a lot in some self-aware kind of jokes in anime all the time. I don't even want to get into the whole self-aware as a joke thing, but haven't anime in the past few years completely strayed from the typical death flag kind of predicaments and developments? Have I missed something when I was playing solitaire on my phone while watching a boring show?


Yes death flags are still a thing even if they have been memed to death by self aware shows.

And why are you even here if you don't watch anime anymore?

Bored? Or simply haven't anything better to do? I am genuinely curious.
Jun 14, 2019 4:49 AM

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13
HungryForQuality said:
Unko- said:


Yeah there are certainly people who feel that way, I am not one of them at least.


I used to feel that way until I got my head out of my ass. Sometimes lack of foreshadowing allows for better immersion with the character(s) since you're on the same level of knowledge as them. Also, everything being known beforehand can be boring.


I couldn't agree more, this is exactly how I feel personally.
Jun 14, 2019 4:52 AM

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Jun 2012
6488
Unko- said:
Holybaptiser said:
Do death flags even happen anymore? I see flags getting mocked a lot in some self-aware kind of jokes in anime all the time. I don't even want to get into the whole self-aware as a joke thing, but haven't anime in the past few years completely strayed from the typical death flag kind of predicaments and developments? Have I missed something when I was playing solitaire on my phone while watching a boring show?


Yes death flags are still a thing even if they have been memed to death by self aware shows.

And why are you even here if you don't watch anime anymore?

Bored? Or simply haven't anything better to do? I am genuinely curious.
I still watch anime. I just don't update my list, because that would take too much time.
I'm also filled with pure-hearted ulterior motives.

Jun 14, 2019 4:30 PM

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Sep 2017
650
They are not necessity. Usually it's just bad writing. When some side characters have to die, but they have never got enough characterisation to make their death matter, the scriptwriter would resort to some last minute character development right before they die. Those last minute developments are then identified as death flag. They were not originally designed to tell us who's going to die.
Jun 14, 2019 4:35 PM

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May 2014
2368
Unko- said:
Nicholaevich said:
If you don't foreshadow every single event that takes place, someone will cry and call it bad writing.


Yeah there are certainly people who feel that way, I am not one of them at least.


That's just stupid reasoning. Isn't it more fun to have a hypothesis about something and when finally it gets revealed it will come as a shock or something you were expecting, but the timing or setting turned a bit different than what you expected? At least for me that's more fun. Very boring to read/watch if you can foreshadow or get hints about something all the time until the thing is revealed.
Jun 14, 2019 4:39 PM
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Jul 2018
564612
I prefer things when I'm not expecting them at all. Death included. I want to feel like I was hit by an emotional train. Isn't that the point? Though sometimes you can have death flags and it still hurts like a bitch.
Jun 15, 2019 4:16 AM

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Attack on Titan does not do this (a lot) if im right and its refreshing, usually character deaths on Attack on Titan are sudden/random and if they are important characters then they will show up again on flashbacks/backstory to give them that needed character development
Jun 15, 2019 9:17 AM

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CHC said:
They are not necessity. Usually it's just bad writing. When some side characters have to die, but they have never got enough characterisation to make their death matter, the scriptwriter would resort to some last minute character development right before they die. Those last minute developments are then identified as death flag. They were not originally designed to tell us who's going to die.


Yeah, this makes a lot of sense.

Thanks for your input.
Jun 15, 2019 9:21 AM
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Jul 2015
168
what's that death flag? But for what I read what does it mean to have a death flag? Have people become so snowflaked that they can't handle a death of a fictious character? If this is what death flag is then to me it's quite absurd. My god. What next? Putting stickers on books and dvd's and such which has a death? lol snowflaked people who can't handle a fictional death HAHA
perkunos.blogspot.com
Nov 13, 2019 3:54 PM
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Jul 2018
564612
I think death flags are necessary in order to add replay-ability to the story. Of course, this is a double edged sword: if the death flag is obvious, it ruins the impact of the scene, as you've said.
Nov 20, 2019 6:40 PM

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Jan 2018
32411
if the anime is like survival or war or apocalypse, then no death flag is okay for me. I think I'm fine with any as long as death flag isn't too obvious. Coming from someone who don't dig manga for more plot points, I can say no death flag is a yes because I rarely re-watch anime and if I do, it would be for the epic battles.

It should be balanced like the uncertainty aspect of a story just like a sudden earthquake or tsunami.
Nov 20, 2019 7:22 PM

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Jul 2019
810
I think that death flags can be done very well and if there aren't, then tbh "x" character's death is probably not that well done and only relies on shock effect instead of emotional attachment.

Series that do good death flags have you already introduced you to the character and invested in them for it to be more than just shock, and even though you know it is going to happen, the events unfold and it happens in a grandiose way and leaves you in bliss.

If he was simply going to die without anything preparing you for it, he'd be dead and then yeah well... He's dead...And the story continues. Those death flags are definitively necessary for the anime to be more than just popcorn anime and leave its mark on the viewer.

I know a precise example I won't mention cuz spoilers that doesn't present any death flags and still gives a great death to a certain character because instead of only affecting the viewer it also affects largely the cast that changes a lot through his death, he still gets mentionned a lot to keep his death an important moment but personally I didn't feel anything when he died and it is more his souvenir that makes me appreciate him as a character.
Nov 21, 2019 10:07 AM

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Apr 2010
3745
I think I can watch only one death flag and didn't even grasp it much at the time (for my defense, the character didn't too. To not my defense, I missed other clues. I'm not good at it, I'm a human being...)

Of course, if someone is hurt you can try to guess he\she is about to die... but other than that... can't remember really anything. The dead flag of Babylon was so subtle you'd never guessed it. And I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with my horrible deductions ability. But it really hurt :(


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