| Dude. I live in a third world country and almost everyone who isn't at least 30 years old knows what Naruto is at the very least. If that's not proof that anime has gone mainstream I don't know what is. |
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LordLagann said: Vorpality said: It's adorable how blissfully unaware you are that all of that has already happened. When I was a kid you couldn't walk into hot topic and buy an Evangelion t-shirt. This. When the Anime community as a whole neglects raising the bar and keeping standards low we get forum post like this. I mean the poor bastard thought this wasn't mainstream yet. Just a glance around and it's obvious half the people who watch Anime now do so because it's WAAAYYY more fashionable now then it was just a decade ago. Speaking of days gone. Anime died in 2009. Buried in 2012. Resurrection pending. You literally cannot go to any type of store and not see something anime related at this point. And OP thinks it's still a niche thing. Anime died in 2009, was buried in 2010 and has had a few zombie gems since. |
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| The whole assumption that "Western SJWs" are the ones threatening your sweet objectionable content is so cute and tastes like the tons of graphic content that is censored in regular TV, like Kodomo no Jikan being removed from two TV stations before even airing or like the overall view Japanese society has of hardcore anime fans as shut-in perverts, and we are not even in the 90s when the media specifically identified otaku with a predatory lifestyle. This debate has no reason of being. It's only a projected fantasy of how people believe anime is perceived in Japan, coming from -more often than not- alt-right trolls trying to preserve a cultural purity they don't prove to understand. |
Ryuk9428 said: OnionKnightRises said: I have a hard time taking someone seriously when they just overexaggerate and don't really acknowledge how complicated things like this actually are. Anime is big, but it's not video game levels of big, the biggest market is still Japan, and while it's not completely mainstream over there, it's still pretty damn big. Why would becoming mainstream in other countries that barely net these studios money have such a gigantic change as you anticipate? Yes certain studios will see overseas interest and will adjust their business model, but nothing nearly as abhorrent as what's going on with the video game industry. Also, very, VERY different mediums. Not only is it dumb to compare, but it also makes it hard to see certain practices in one medium roll over to another. It's not nearly as simple as you fearmongerers attempt to make it seem. When I see people attempting to "inform" others of "dangers" like this, I feel like I', seeing a college student who passed Economics 101 with a C+ attempting to persuade people he's completely knowledgeable about what caused the Great Depression. The primary market right now is Japan. Japan is a country of 125 million people. The US has 330 million people, Canada has 40 million people, the continent of Europe has a total of 750 million people. Even if anime only went mainstream in the US, Canada, and Australia, that'd be 400 million people which is over three times the size of Japan. Let's say 1/3 of the population of Japan regularly watches anime. Pretty generous number. All it would take is 40 million people from those three countries combined which would be about 10% of the population to compete with the Japanese market. The actual amount of people from outside countries doesn't matter if they don't spend nearly as much as those in-country. Anime outside of Japan is more of a niche hobby, the amount of people actually buying merchandise, DVDs, and even just being able to actually watch anime on TV to boost views still makes outside countries not as profitable. It's not impossible for that to change, we might come to a time where importing isn't expensive and inconvenient, but that won't happen anytime soon. |
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desusama said: To be fair though Naruto is garbage so it's not like that goes against OP's point.Dude. I live in a third world country and almost everyone who isn't at least 30 years old knows what Naruto is at the very least. If that's not proof that anime has gone mainstream I don't know what is. Obviously there is a high correlation between mainstream and garbage but correlation is not causation: is it mainstream because it is garbage, or is it garbage because it is mainstream? |
 It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
Sphinxter said: desusama said: To be fair though Naruto is garbage so it's not like that goes against OP's point.Dude. I live in a third world country and almost everyone who isn't at least 30 years old knows what Naruto is at the very least. If that's not proof that anime has gone mainstream I don't know what is. Obviously there is a high correlation between mainstream and garbage but correlation is not causation: is it mainstream because it is garbage, or is it garbage because it is mainstream? Whether Naruto is garbage or not is a matter of preference. The fact here is that anime has made its way into the mainstream among young people here. |
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| [quote=Sphinxter message=57784219] Orryx said: More than 90% of Ghost in the Shell's box office was outside of Japan; they'd be fools from a financial perspective to not consider and they clearly did. That was because Manga Entertainment heavily contributed to the budget which was the first time as far as I know that an anime was partly funded by a Western company. They took a huge risk and made an absolute killing which pretty much funded all their releases to date. |
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| It will only go goodbye if studios actually give a shit, which honestly they won't. Kissanime caters to a western, or more specifically non-japanese audience. This is not the intended audience for anime companies and this kind of piracy costs them very little. Selling to the non-Japanese market holds very little profit for the studios and it is done more out of charity than anything else. Say for example you buy a boxset in Japan, that will cost you around $100. You buy the same boxset in America and it will be around $50, otherwise it wouldn't sell. Already the profit is halved. Then you have to take into account the fact that it is a distributor selling outside of Japan. Using the general retail model of 100% mark up that means it will cost the distributor $25. Next there is cost of printing and advertising/selling, so that will be around $10 per product. Suddenly the studio is now being forced to sell the rights for $15 at most depending on the quality of the series and also how willing the distributor is. They are still making a profit but it is 83% less than they would be making in Japan. Once you factor in the costs of trying to shut down websites such as kissanime then that small profit has disappeared. Occasionally distributors will try and close down the piracy sites but 99% of the time they will say it is the studio's duty. |
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desusama said: The point is that OP says that mainstream will lead to garbage so citing Naruto as a counter example is not really a counter example.Sphinxter said: To be fair though Naruto is garbage so it's not like that goes against OP's point. Obviously there is a high correlation between mainstream and garbage but correlation is not causation: is it mainstream because it is garbage, or is it garbage because it is mainstream? Whether Naruto is garbage or not is a matter of preference. The fact here is that anime has made its way into the mainstream among young people here. If it becoming mainstream means it'll all be like Naruto then I hope not. |
It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
| anime is already mainstream and getting bigger and bigger. dont take our opinions on it, you can go to an anime shop or something and ask the retailers what sells the best and how much units of x they expect to sell. obv some will be untruthful but when i went to the uk last time, the guy at the anime store showed us what was popular and explained how much of each thing was expected to sell and how many stuff was already sold out since last shipment. |
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| Anime is a medium. Just because a big studio might screw up, that doesn't mean that the other ones don't exist. Your argument seems like something a newbie would say. They're so scared of what's popular changing, because that's all the anime they know. Anime has always had a large variety of shows, both mainstream and obscure. That's not going to change even if trends come and go. For every EA, there are dozens of flourishing indie studios. |
RealMTL said: In Walmart I see Dragon ball and Attack on Titan Shirts for sale. I was seeing DB (especially DBZ) clothes (or school supplies) in most supermarkets when I was not even 10 years old in 92-97. Plus a few other names too. |
| I'd be more worried about China trying to infiltrate the industry than the West, despite the NPC infestation, companies like Netflix actually only invests in safe bets for their originals (like any old business) and that's it. I doubt we're going to get actual, truly woke anime, however, that Chinese money might change a few things eventually. If you are worried about fanservice, US and Japan pushed back against the UN about a month ago. |
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| Nothing would change about anime if it becomes mainstream in the West because pretty much all of the money anime makes is from Japan and China. Even pachinko machines make more capital for anime than the entirety of the Western world. I highly doubt anime will ever be popular enough in the West for the income here to even be seen as something worth marketing towards. |
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Sphinxter said: desusama said: The point is that OP says that mainstream will lead to garbage so citing Naruto as a counter example is not really a counter example.Whether Naruto is garbage or not is a matter of preference. The fact here is that anime has made its way into the mainstream among young people here. If it becoming mainstream means it'll all be like Naruto then I hope not. Look man, your argument doesn't even make any sense. Just because Naruto is the most well known show, in a little known foreign country might I add that doesn't mean all anime will suddenly become like Naruto. When anime became mainstream in the West did everything suddenly become like DBZ? |
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| Preaching to the choir with me. Artistic integrity just doesn't survive contact with big money mainstream entertainment. Everything becomes a money-making or political tool. Once big money is involved, the stuff that gets watched is decided by marketing and not by merit. Fact is, most people only go see the latest movie once every couple weeks and they only watch what they're told to watch by whatever has the most marketing budget. Actual quality ceased to become important long ago when these companies learned how to control the marketing space. I will repeat this because it's something I firmly believe: Artistic value and integrity simply cannot exist to the same extent in the mainstream space. Subculture is the by far the more artisticly valid space. Innovation, exploring new ideas, fringe ideas, catering to niche interests... Then there is artistic freedom of expression. I get the impression in the Otaku space there are a lot of authors simply telling exactly the story they want to tell. That level of authorial integrity - of authorial self-determination (there's a better word here but it won't come to mind) - can't exist to nearly the same extent in the mainstream space. Everything good about anime bar animation quality would drastically reduce if it were to 'go mainstream' anymore than it already has. I'm sure some will argue it's already there but that's not the point of this conversation. The debate is whether it's good or bad. The only benefit beyond quality of animation would be more pay for animators and others involved in production, or at least that's what people will say. I would argue that first of all, it isn't worth it. The best artists thorughout history have suffered for their art because it is more important than their own circumstances. But that's not to say it needs to be the case. There are ways of making sure people can at least make enough to survive which as we all know currently many animators are not paid enough to live. The answer is not, however, bastardizing the artistic integrity of the entire medium to appeal to the dribbling masses. The normie barriers are quickly being torn down. Many western anime fans are not exposed to true Otaku culture because of communities like r/anime which moderate so much of it away in their attmpts to be 'inclusive' of normies and children, which is only motivated by self-interest and Reddit admins who have them by the balls. |
| “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” -Friedrich Nietzsche Aggregate scoring is bad for the anime fandom |
NthDegree said: Anime is a medium. Just because a big studio might screw up, that doesn't mean that the other ones don't exist. Your argument seems like something a newbie would say. They're so scared of what's popular changing, because that's all the anime they know. Anime has always had a large variety of shows, both mainstream and obscure. That's not going to change even if trends come and go. For every EA, there are dozens of flourishing indie studios. Your comparison with gaming is way off. The culture of gaming was far more diverse in the 90s and 00s. PS2 era was the best because the money was split more evenly. The 'flourishing' indie studios you speak of today are kind of a myth. There are lots of indie stdudios but most of them fail. All the money and marketing space goes to the AAA publishers now. Investment back in the PS2 era wasn't so focused on a few big companies and the money made wasn't as big so there was still a lot of people earnestly trying to make good games instead of trying to be money machines. Gaming is in a far worse state today. That will be the fate of the anime industry should western popularity - and therefore influence - continue to increase. Right now anime is in a pretty healthy place artistically. There are many studios with similar budgets making lots of diverse content. The argument you present is just saying "oh it's ok because there will still be small companies making interesting content" but they will be much smaller because the big companies will be so much bigger. The middle ground, where money and artisitc integrity find a happy medium, will be gone. It's kind like losing the 'middle class' of entertainment. That's whats happened to gaming and could happen to anime. In fact I've read stuff about this a while ago regarding gaming. People were complaining that there was no longer a middle ground. It's all either AAA or indie games. I agree there is a lot of artistic merit to the indie scene but a certain amount of money is needed to really take the time and produce something with care that presents that artistic vision effectively. |
| “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” -Friedrich Nietzsche Aggregate scoring is bad for the anime fandom |
YossaRedMage said: NthDegree said: Anime is a medium. Just because a big studio might screw up, that doesn't mean that the other ones don't exist. Your argument seems like something a newbie would say. They're so scared of what's popular changing, because that's all the anime they know. Anime has always had a large variety of shows, both mainstream and obscure. That's not going to change even if trends come and go. For every EA, there are dozens of flourishing indie studios. Your comparison with gaming is way off. The culture of gaming was far more diverse in the 90s and 00s. PS2 era was the best because the money was split more evenly. The 'flourishing' indie studios you speak of today are kind of a myth. There are lots of indie stdudios but most of them fail. All the money and marketing space goes to the AAA publishers now. Investment back in the PS2 era wasn't so focused on a few big companies and the money made wasn't as big so there was still a lot of people earnestly trying to make good games instead of trying to be money machines. Gaming is in a far worse state today. That will be the fate of the anime industry should western popularity - and therefore influence - continue to increase. Right now anime is in a pretty healthy place artistically. There are many studios with similar budgets making lots of diverse content. The argument you present is just saying "oh it's ok because there will still be small companies making interesting content" but they will be much smaller because the big companies will be so much bigger. The middle ground, where money and artisitc integrity find a happy medium, will be gone. It's kind like losing the 'middle class' of entertainment. That's whats happened to gaming and could happen to anime. In fact I've read stuff about this a while ago regarding gaming. People were complaining that there was no longer a middle ground. It's all either AAA or indie games. I agree there is a lot of artistic merit to the indie scene but a certain amount of money is needed to really take the time and produce something with care that presents that artistic vision effectively. My gaming comparison was a reply to the OP who used it themselves. If you wanna talk about it, perhaps tagging the OP would be more accurate. As for the OP's other arguments, anime already has a ton of Western influence. A good example in this season is Carole and Tuesday which both has very obvious Western influence and is also the best show of the season. |
| wait so anime isn't mainstream? lol wtf. |
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| I was so confused when I read the title. I thought you meant kissAnime goodbye if it goes main stream. LMAO |
| Don't be a self pretentious that is the most gayest thing ever English Dubs are better than subs You all have anime profile pic so you opinion doesn't count Your Waifu is trash Cory in the house is the best anime https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFQQALduhzA Japanese are one of the most xenophobic nations My Anime List looks like a website from 1990s |
| I hope more stuff like Goblin Slayer and Shield Hero come in the future. |
| There are always going to be the handful of mainstream animes each season, and those big name titles might try and cater to the west to capture more of the market, but for every "mainstream" show that airs each season there are twice as many that go largely ignored by the western market. Nobody paid any attention to Spec-Ops Asuka that came out this year, but it was a damn fine show that reminded me of 90's OVA's with tons of blood, violence and busty girls. Japan is still cranking out anime that is violent and fan service infested, you just have to look outside the top 10 lists all the anitubers and bloggers churn out. |
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| Maybe anime characters will finally have sex, the West can't come soon enough I'm tired of bad fanservice @Only_Brad Praising anime for triggering some random ppl on Twitter is just as lame as SJWs who praise inclusion of gay/les/trans characters imo |
EsquirtitJun 12, 2019 11:04 AM
| poop |
| wait... You're telling me anime HASN'T been mainstream for years already??? Huh... |
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xaow said: wait... You're telling me anime HASN'T been mainstream for years already??? Huh... What he's afraid it's anime becoming woke |
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BlancaXLobo said: xaow said: wait... You're telling me anime HASN'T been mainstream for years already??? Huh... What he's afraid it's anime becoming woke to be fair, something being mainstream and something becoming woke are two different issues, especially if the thing in question is from a non-western culture. I think that while anime has been mainstream for years for the most part it won't get "woke" because it's generally been accepted that culturally it's created by people with different standards then us. For example, the wierdness of hentai is usually embraced by normals, instead of shunned. But it's still well known, or mainstream. |
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BlancaXLobo said: I see, the good ol so called "wokeness"xaow said: wait... You're telling me anime HASN'T been mainstream for years already??? Huh... What he's afraid it's anime becoming woke They're barely a blimp in the radar lmao. |
Please learn about cel animation and its technical process. Learn how special effects and backlighting were done without computers. |
| @Cabron right now some people think wokoness will be push in all their favourite media. But like you said, @xaow, anime cames from a different country, with a very different histoircal background. so the circumstances will be different. There's a reason Christianity is used so freely in shows like D. Gray-Man, Angel Sanctuary and Blue Exorcist, managing to barely have any real religious baggage, unlike in the West. |
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BlancaXLobo said: @Cabron right now some people think wokoness will be push in all their favourite media. But like you said, @xaow, anime cames from a different country, with a very different histoircal background. so the circumstances will be different. There's a reason Christianity is used so freely in shows like D. Gray-Man, Angel Sanctuary and Blue Exorcist, managing to barely have any real religious baggage, unlike in the West. Well, it doesn't help when we get bombarded by news about the UN trying to force Japan's hand, when it comes to anime and manga ("lolis" in particular). Of course that will generate at least some fear, when it's plastered on literally every anime news site that exists. It got so much exposure it became a widespread meme. |
NthDegree said: YossaRedMage said: Your comparison with gaming is way off. The culture of gaming was far more diverse in the 90s and 00s. PS2 era was the best because the money was split more evenly. The 'flourishing' indie studios you speak of today are kind of a myth. There are lots of indie stdudios but most of them fail. All the money and marketing space goes to the AAA publishers now. Investment back in the PS2 era wasn't so focused on a few big companies and the money made wasn't as big so there was still a lot of people earnestly trying to make good games instead of trying to be money machines. Gaming is in a far worse state today. That will be the fate of the anime industry should western popularity - and therefore influence - continue to increase. Right now anime is in a pretty healthy place artistically. There are many studios with similar budgets making lots of diverse content. The argument you present is just saying "oh it's ok because there will still be small companies making interesting content" but they will be much smaller because the big companies will be so much bigger. The middle ground, where money and artisitc integrity find a happy medium, will be gone. It's kind like losing the 'middle class' of entertainment. That's whats happened to gaming and could happen to anime. In fact I've read stuff about this a while ago regarding gaming. People were complaining that there was no longer a middle ground. It's all either AAA or indie games. I agree there is a lot of artistic merit to the indie scene but a certain amount of money is needed to really take the time and produce something with care that presents that artistic vision effectively. My gaming comparison was a reply to the OP who used it themselves. If you wanna talk about it, perhaps tagging the OP would be more accurate. As for the OP's other arguments, anime already has a ton of Western influence. A good example in this season is Carole and Tuesday which both has very obvious Western influence and is also the best show of the season. OK, perhaps I wasn't clear. The first line of my post was midleading. The comparison with gaming isn't wrong at all. It's a very good comparison for the reasons laid out in my post. Your interpretation of the that comparion is off. Also, 'western influence' isn't the same as mainstreamification or westernization. Every time this debate comes up there's someone that repeats the worn-out "but there's western influence"line. Anime with western influence is still Japanese. The concern I and many others share is that anime will become western with Japanese influence. Or worse 'global' and completely lacking in any kind of cultural influence, resulting in a bland inunspired pastiche. Also I'm not in the least bit surprised someone who defends the mainstreamifcation and westernization of anime would think that massively overrated, grossly pretentious westaboo trash C&T is the best show of the season. |
| “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” -Friedrich Nietzsche Aggregate scoring is bad for the anime fandom |
| Are doujins also going mainstream??? Oh right...no, they’re not. And the doujin master race lives on. Anime is not needed. |
Esquirtit said: Maybe anime characters will finally have sex, the West can't come soon enough I'm tired of bad fanservice @Only_Brad Praising anime for triggering some random ppl on Twitter is just as lame as SJWs who praise inclusion of gay/les/trans characters imo Yeah great, western-style brief token sex scenes between 30 year olds who've had sex hundreds of times before presented as a brief momentary release of energy and nothing more, all just to remind the audience that, yes, they have done it. Anime doesn't go far enough, often enough for my liking. But I much prefer the treatment of sexuality in anime to western mainstream media. Anime is happy to have sexual tension as a constant backdrop and apply it across different genres. And it's also happy to present sexuality in teenagers which is far more interesting time in life sexually as characters will finding their first love and having sex for the first time. Sexuality between teenagers in western media is hardly ever presented with the same respect and care. It's often made out to be kind of sordid like in Skins or similar sorts of teen dramas. DiscoDespot said: There are always going to be the handful of mainstream animes each season, and those big name titles might try and cater to the west to capture more of the market, but for every "mainstream" show that airs each season there are twice as many that go largely ignored by the western market. Nobody paid any attention to Spec-Ops Asuka that came out this year, but it was a damn fine show that reminded me of 90's OVA's with tons of blood, violence and busty girls. Japan is still cranking out anime that is violent and fan service infested, you just have to look outside the top 10 lists all the anitubers and bloggers churn out. I want to agree. You present the point better tha some, but the concern is that anime will go the way of gaming. To repeat what I said to someone else in this thread: "The argument you present is just saying "oh it's ok because there will still be small companies making interesting content" but they will be much smaller because the big companies will be so much bigger. The middle ground, where money and artisitc integrity find a happy medium, will be gone. It's kind like losing the 'middle class' of entertainment. That's whats happened to gaming and could happen to anime. In fact I've read stuff about this a while ago regarding gaming. People were complaining that there was no longer a middle ground. It's all either AAA or indie games. I agree there is a lot of artistic merit to the indie scene but a certain amount of money is needed to really take the time and produce something with care that presents that artistic vision effectively." Also it would be a shame from a community standpoint if anime were to split in to the mainstream AAA anime and indie anime like has happened with gaming. Though to some extent this dichotomy exists already and it's the main reason I come here instead of r/anime most of the time now. xaow said: to be fair, something being mainstream and something becoming woke are two different issues, especially if the thing in question is from a non-western culture. I think that while anime has been mainstream for years for the most part it won't get "woke" because it's generally been accepted that culturally it's created by people with different standards then us. For example, the wierdness of hentai is usually embraced by normals, instead of shunned. But it's still well known, or mainstream. I don't know if it's really that accepted when there are huge swaths of the anime community (a little on here, a lot on Reddit, and an infestation on Twitter) that complain about fan service, lolis (even school-age girls) and stuff like slaves in Shield Hero, depiction of rape in Goblin Slayer or depictions of anything resembling 20th century facism. Reddit and Twitter are so paranoid about anime girls because they are presented in a way that is exagerratedly cute that if they have small boobs those companies will think it's underage and censor. Then you have the creator of SAO who has come out repeatedly saying how he wants to change the future of the franchise to "reflect modern global standards". I don't care how much someone hates SAO they have to recognize what an important, influential part of anime it is. If it doesn become 'woke' and continues to see success you can bet other Japanese creators and authors will follow suit. I won't even start on the "modern global standards" cultural imperialism shit. Makes my blood boil, that stuff. |
| “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” -Friedrich Nietzsche Aggregate scoring is bad for the anime fandom |
YossaRedMage said: NthDegree said: My gaming comparison was a reply to the OP who used it themselves. If you wanna talk about it, perhaps tagging the OP would be more accurate. As for the OP's other arguments, anime already has a ton of Western influence. A good example in this season is Carole and Tuesday which both has very obvious Western influence and is also the best show of the season. OK, perhaps I wasn't clear. The first line of my post was midleading. The comparison with gaming isn't wrong at all. It's a very good comparison for the reasons laid out in my post. Your interpretation of the that comparion is off. Also, 'western influence' isn't the same as mainstreamification or westernization. Every time this debate comes up there's someone that repeats the worn-out "but there's western influence"line. Anime with western influence is still Japanese. The concern I and many others share is that anime will become western with Japanese influence. Or worse 'global' and completely lacking in any kind of cultural influence, resulting in a bland inunspired pastiche. Also I'm not in the least bit surprised someone who defends the mainstreamifcation and westernization of anime would think that massively overrated, grossly pretentious westaboo trash C&T is the best show of the season. I think the biggest problem in this discourse is how certain people seem to put the purity of anime and Japan in general on a ridiculous pedestal. When people project their ideals onto a real country, they will inevitably feel betrayed and post threads like this. I'm saying this as someone who has actually lived there. So how exactly are you saying anime is becoming "Western with Japanese influence"? Do you think all the creators wake up one morning to find their ethnicity changed? Or are you saying that in the future all anime is created by Westerners and Japan just mysteriously decides to stop producing any? If not, you ARE talking about Western influences, which would make your previous argument complete bull. As for Carole & Tuesday, it's great. The fact that you can't come up with any actual arguments and simply stoop to petty insults, speaks for itself. |
| Watching anime now compared to a decade ago is so different; people will literally judge you for watching asian cartoons back then. I would say anime is more mainstream than ever now. |
| As long as the west doesn't get largely involved, you shouldn't have to worry about politics getting pushed in there. Japan is not largely involved in politics and constantly talking about them like we are, or at least that's what I've heard. |
NthDegree said: For the bolded part.YossaRedMage said: OK, perhaps I wasn't clear. The first line of my post was midleading. The comparison with gaming isn't wrong at all. It's a very good comparison for the reasons laid out in my post. Your interpretation of the that comparion is off. Also, 'western influence' isn't the same as mainstreamification or westernization. Every time this debate comes up there's someone that repeats the worn-out "but there's western influence"line. Anime with western influence is still Japanese. The concern I and many others share is that anime will become western with Japanese influence. Or worse 'global' and completely lacking in any kind of cultural influence, resulting in a bland inunspired pastiche. Also I'm not in the least bit surprised someone who defends the mainstreamifcation and westernization of anime would think that massively overrated, grossly pretentious westaboo trash C&T is the best show of the season. I think the biggest problem in this discourse is how certain people seem to put the purity of anime and Japan in general on a ridiculous pedestal. When people project their ideals onto a real country, they will inevitably feel betrayed and post threads like this. I'm saying this as someone who has actually lived there. So how exactly are you saying anime is becoming "Western with Japanese influence"? Do you think all the creators wake up one morning to find their ethnicity changed? Or are you saying that in the future all anime is created by Westerners and Japan just mysteriously decides to stop producing any? If not, you ARE talking about Western influences, which would make your previous argument complete bull. As for Carole & Tuesday, it's great. The fact that you can't come up with any actual arguments and simply stoop to petty insults, speaks for itself. Don't forget that the ones who usually say that are the ones who are barely getting into the medium. |
Please learn about cel animation and its technical process. Learn how special effects and backlighting were done without computers. |
| I'll derail a bit, but I've got time to vent, so I will. People really think that in a world as globalized as ours there's such a thing as a country "untouched" by western/eastern ideas and concepts. People have the tendency to put Japan on a pedestal, as a pure country not influenced by that pesky SJW propaganda, but that's not true, specially amongst the younger japanese population, what can be seen in the youth's support of same-sex marriage, a topic usually associated with "the SJW", as opposed to their older pop in polls. What happens in the West does not contain itself to the West, it spreads worldwide, mainly through the internet and the global brands. A spike in left leaning tendencies in western media will spread itself to other countries, specially if it's profitable. Just look at the influence Hollywood, and therefore american culture, has had in filim all over the world over the last century. Those who think any work of art can be non-political are making a fool of themselves. Even when it's trying not to send a message, art is sending one. It may be to your liking or not, but it does have a stance and it shows on the work itself. Thinking otherwise would be seeing artists (actual humans) as non-political beings, what's absurd, for humans are political and social in nature. |
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| Are you, like, 12 years old, OP? Because anime is already mainstream. - Anime is prominently displayed on the shelves side-by-side with big new releases at Walmart. - You can find anime collectibles out in the open on the main walkway of Barnes & Noble. - Anime film adaptations (as well as adaptations of Japanese properties in general) are being released on a regular basis, some even getting positive critical buzz, nevermind the fact that prominent film critics have always touted anime films as chief inspirations. - We have had Western cartoons airing during peak daylight/prime-time hours that have had extremely obvious anime influences. From Teen Titans back in 2003 and Avatar in 2005, to a brand-new Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles series out this year that 100% looks like a Hiroyuki Imaishi project for kids. - I just started my own Netflix account, and what do I see on the front page? Aside from an entire genre tag for anime? I see FMA: Brotherhood under the "Critically-Acclaimed TV Series" heading. I see Ghibli films all over the "Family Movies" tag. Hunter X Hunter is under the "Action" tab. Not "Action Anime"--just "Action." - Hulu, much the same story--can't go more than a page or two in the TV Series browser without hitting Bleach, Boruto, One Punch Man, Attack on Titan, and My Hero Academia. I entered nothing in the search bar, with no genre filter. Anime is readily available on the front page of streaming services that nearly every home in the US logs into, practically screaming to be seen. You wanna know what I saw as a kid? There were three anime total on TV--Sailor Moon, Dragonball Z, and Pokemon. That was it. That was literally it. And they were chopped up to hell and back, to scrub away any perceivable foreign-ness to them. Goku's punches either were cut away or had big yellow stars painted on impact. The giant mounds of Namekian corpses Frieza left behind were given digitally-added pupils and were gasping and wheezing instead. Tenshinhan (er, Tien) saw parachutes where there were none. Also, Serena and Darien were a thing. Lesbians were, instead, cousins. Hetero cousins. Also, Brock enjoys donuts--nothing beats a jelly-filled donut. Oh boy, and if you liked this stuff, good luck finding more of it. If you didn't have a local Suncoast selling a handful of licensed titles (by the 2-episode VHS, only $30 each!), you had nothing else to watch. Which is why my brother and I were drawn to Slayers--each VHS had three or four episodes, at only $40 per tape! Or we could buy the whole half-season for $110! What a bargain! And that was 1998. I had it way, waaaayyyyy better than someone who was into anime in, say, 1988. Or 1978. If they existed in the US that far back. Point being, quit being a whiny bitch, OP. Anime already is mainstream. Get the fuck used to it. |
 This glorious signature image was created by @Mayumi! I am the Arbiter of Absolute Truth, and here is my wisdom: "Anime was always influenced by the West. This is not news. Shoujo is the superior genre primarily aimed at young people. Harem/isekai are lazy genres that refuse any meaningful innovation. There is no 'Golden Age.' There will always be top-shelf anime. You should be watching Carole & Tuesday." |
YossaRedMage said: Lol huge generalization man. I was trolling, don't care about sex scenes. Didn't expect you to take the bait, happy I could be of use to you, more hatred towards the West hell yeah!Yeah great, western-style brief token sex scenes between 30 year olds who've had sex hundreds of times before presented as a brief momentary release of energy and nothing more, all just to remind the audience that, yes, they have done it. Seriously though I was really just complaining out bad fanservice. To pick something we've both seen; Goblin Slayer has 2 characters (cow girl and witch) just to show some tits from time to time. Slime isekai and SH contain my idea of having bad fanservice as well, low effort shit. Anime doesn't go far enough, often enough for my liking. But I much prefer the treatment of sexuality in anime to western mainstream media. I without a doubt don't lol, most of the time it's dealt with as comedy or just cringy fanservice. Waifu culture and cute anime girls in general never have been that interesting to me tho. Sexuality has always been the last thing I care about in stories unless it's for great comedy. Only when the romance is well written and build up does it matter to me.Anime is happy to have sexual tension as a constant backdrop and apply it across different genres. Western media does this too lol, Maniac is a decent one and came out last year. Most western series I watch are with adults and always add spicy sex. Sexual tension is something I don't see much value in anyway you're the only one I know who cares this much. Maybe you should make a thread about it and why you believe anime does it the best. I plan on watching Bakemonogatari soon perhaps it'll tell me more. And it's also happy to present sexuality in teenagers which is far more interesting time in life sexually as characters will finding their first love and having sex for the first time Really? You found Shinji being horny more interesting than the relationships of Misato, Ritsuko and Gendou? I don't agree with teenagers their sexual life being more interesting, in my experience it's simple and not something complex. Adults have more responsibilities so dealing with sex and relationships is much harder. I haven't watched any real teenage romance anime yet thoSexuality between teenagers in western media is hardly ever presented with the same respect and care. It's often made out to be kind of sordid like in Skins or similar sorts of teen dramas. Ah I'm more of a movie guy when it comes to teenagers and sex, Superbad would be the best one I've seen. I don't think I have ever watched a tv series like Skins so I can't relate to your issues with western teen dramas. Anyway, watch Prison School |
| poop |
| Anime is already mainstream. There's shounen posters at Walmart, t shirts at hot topic, and I can get blind boxes at the book store or local video game store. If OP is worried about 'mainstream' issues like . idk. more gay characters than I'd prefer more. But I don't think that's an issue of 'mainstream'ness - in general there is a movement that including gay characters isn't as much of a total financial bomb. |
| It's really a double-edged knife. I certainly don't want the loons over at Crunchyroll (or Netflix, after what they did to Anne of Green Gables) to have any creative input whatsoever over anything the industry puts out, but something absolutely magical like Shelter happened thanks to western/eastern collaboration, and I definitely want to see more anime-styled cartoons like Castlevania and The Dragon Prince. Then again, it's also a double-edged knife that anime is as niche as it is, it can't get away with alienating its own fanbase like some western producers like to do nowadays, but also studios go bankrupt every other day, and animators are payed like crap. In short, intersectional wackos is why we can't have nice things. |
BatoKusanagiJun 12, 2019 10:31 PM
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YossaRedMage said: DiscoDespot said: There are always going to be the handful of mainstream animes each season, and those big name titles might try and cater to the west to capture more of the market, but for every "mainstream" show that airs each season there are twice as many that go largely ignored by the western market. Nobody paid any attention to Spec-Ops Asuka that came out this year, but it was a damn fine show that reminded me of 90's OVA's with tons of blood, violence and busty girls. Japan is still cranking out anime that is violent and fan service infested, you just have to look outside the top 10 lists all the anitubers and bloggers churn out. I want to agree. You present the point better tha some, but the concern is that anime will go the way of gaming. To repeat what I said to someone else in this thread: "The argument you present is just saying "oh it's ok because there will still be small companies making interesting content" but they will be much smaller because the big companies will be so much bigger. The middle ground, where money and artisitc integrity find a happy medium, will be gone. It's kind like losing the 'middle class' of entertainment. That's whats happened to gaming and could happen to anime. In fact I've read stuff about this a while ago regarding gaming. People were complaining that there was no longer a middle ground. It's all either AAA or indie games. I agree there is a lot of artistic merit to the indie scene but a certain amount of money is needed to really take the time and produce something with care that presents that artistic vision effectively." Also it would be a shame from a community standpoint if anime were to split in to the mainstream AAA anime and indie anime like has happened with gaming. Though to some extent this dichotomy exists already and it's the main reason I come here instead of r/anime most of the time now. You made some good points and I completely understand where you are coming from, some niche but not quite indie games I really like have been negatively affected by the changes in the industry to appeal to a wider market. With large anime studios getting an ever growing global market share with their “standardized global edition” anime it will be harder for smaller studios to survive while producing content that is both quality and unique. Anime is an industry based on capitalism so all but the most die-hard niche studios will go where the money is. The anime industry will end up in same situation with B-movies; a lot of times great ideas are presented by smaller companies but a lack of budget and time results in a half-baked production. The anime community is already split. There are a lot of newer fans that speak out against things like the portrayal of women, lack of minorities, lolis/traps, too much fanservice etc. who butt heads with more oldschool anime fans who enjoy anime for what it is and don't try and change it to suit their tastes. I definitely fall into the latter category. If we are lucky the anime bubble will burst kind of like it did in the early 2000's and it go back to being a middle ground medium. |
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YossaRedMage said: Except anime can't actually be any of these things anyway; these are just summary labels that some people use (and quite inaccurately so) to describe how they see a medium consisting of tens of thousands of shows.Also, 'western influence' isn't the same as mainstreamification or westernization. Every time this debate comes up there's someone that repeats the worn-out "but there's western influence"line. Anime with western influence is still Japanese. The concern I and many others share is that anime will become western with Japanese influence. Or worse 'global' and completely lacking in any kind of cultural influence, resulting in a bland inunspired pastiche. YossaRedMage said: So is liking Carole & Tuesday considered a bad thing now? How is this guilting people over their tastes any different from what those accursed SJWs are accused of doing?Also I'm not in the least bit surprised someone who defends the mainstreamifcation and westernization of anime would think that massively overrated, grossly pretentious westaboo trash C&T is the best show of the season. YossaRedMage said: I don't think you've paid much attention to young adult lit in the west.And it's also happy to present sexuality in teenagers which is far more interesting time in life sexually as characters will finding their first love and having sex for the first time. YossaRedMage said: Yes, the "respect and care" of instance after instance of falling-onto-boob-grabs, accidental embarrassing panty shots, boob size jealousy, bouncy boobs, faceplanting into private parts, bouncing tits, oversized tits, faceplanting into oversized tits, butt shots, accidental entry into the ladies' locker room, accidental entry into the ladies' bathroom, and accidentally knocking over hot spring soaking pool dividers. All while fans are complaining that the characters don't just go and sex already.Sexuality between teenagers in western media is hardly ever presented with the same respect and care. It's often made out to be kind of sordid like in Skins or similar sorts of teen dramas. (Sure, we can pick and choose examples from anime that treat sexuality with actual "respect and care", but we can do the same with western storytelling.) YossaRedMage said: Fanservice has been a topic of disagreement among anime fans since forever, long before this recent fad of/paranoia over "wokeness".I don't know if it's really that accepted when there are huge swaths of the anime community (a little on here, a lot on Reddit, and an infestation on Twitter) that complain about fan service, lolis (even school-age girls) and stuff like slaves in Shield Hero, depiction of rape in Goblin Slayer or depictions of anything resembling 20th century facism. Reddit and Twitter are so paranoid about anime girls because they are presented in a way that is exagerratedly cute that if they have small boobs those companies will think it's underage and censor. Then you have the creator of SAO who has come out repeatedly saying how he wants to change the future of the franchise to "reflect modern global standards". I don't care how much someone hates SAO they have to recognize what an important, influential part of anime it is. If it doesn become 'woke' and continues to see success you can bet other Japanese creators and authors will follow suit. I won't even start on the "modern global standards" cultural imperialism shit. Makes my blood boil, that stuff. (Meanwhile I'm over here being annoyed that there are not more mature-looking anime girls with flat chests/small breasts.) Anyhow, you're still seeing this as a grand cultural turf war, which is a vast overblowing of what is basically just people having opinions on stuff. Saiche said: To say "Japan is not largely involved in politics" shows how little you know of Japanese politics.As long as the west doesn't get largely involved, you shouldn't have to worry about politics getting pushed in there. Japan is not largely involved in politics and constantly talking about them like we are, or at least that's what I've heard. They just aren't necessarily talking about the same issues, at the same time, in the same spaces, as we westerners are. You want Japanese politics? Here, let me dig up one topic that's vaguely similar to the recent western spat over gender issues. A topic du jour happens to be high heels. This is a pretty big thing; here's the country's health minister, eight days ago, arguing against a petition by telling people that high heels can be "necessary and appropriate" for workplaces to mandate them. You wanna argue about high heels in the office? Enjoy. |
GlennMagusHarveyJun 12, 2019 10:57 PM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| I think anime is pretty safe. Japan will continue to do its own thing thankful. Though could you imagine if that wasn't the case. We saw even recently how some folks got upset over the Cyberpunk 2077 trailer. Somehow it was "transphobic". Keep in mind these very same people got up in arms over a joke the developer said on twitter and proceeded to riot. Once they were ignored they started doxxing people. Regardless we might still stand a chance even in that scenario. People were quick to band together and shit over crunchyroll's embarrassing attempt. |
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GlennMagusHarvey said: YossaRedMage said: Except anime can't actually be any of these things anyway; these are just summary labels that some people use (and quite inaccurately so) to describe how they see a medium consisting of tens of thousands of shows.Also, 'western influence' isn't the same as mainstreamification or westernization. Every time this debate comes up there's someone that repeats the worn-out "but there's western influence"line. Anime with western influence is still Japanese. The concern I and many others share is that anime will become western with Japanese influence. Or worse 'global' and completely lacking in any kind of cultural influence, resulting in a bland inunspired pastiche. YossaRedMage said: So is liking Carole & Tuesday considered a bad thing now? How is this guilting people over their tastes any different from what those accursed SJWs are accused of doing?Also I'm not in the least bit surprised someone who defends the mainstreamifcation and westernization of anime would think that massively overrated, grossly pretentious westaboo trash C&T is the best show of the season. YossaRedMage said: I don't think you've paid much attention to young adult lit in the west.And it's also happy to present sexuality in teenagers which is far more interesting time in life sexually as characters will finding their first love and having sex for the first time. YossaRedMage said: Yes, the "respect and care" of instance after instance of falling-onto-boob-grabs, accidental embarrassing panty shots, boob size jealousy, bouncy boobs, faceplanting into private parts, bouncing tits, oversized tits, faceplanting into oversized tits, butt shots, accidental entry into the ladies' locker room, accidental entry into the ladies' bathroom, and accidentally knocking over hot spring soaking pool dividers. All while fans are complaining that the characters don't just go and sex already.Sexuality between teenagers in western media is hardly ever presented with the same respect and care. It's often made out to be kind of sordid like in Skins or similar sorts of teen dramas. (Sure, we can pick and choose examples from anime that treat sexuality with actual "respect and care", but we can do the same with western storytelling.) YossaRedMage said: Fanservice has been a topic of disagreement among anime fans since forever, long before this recent fad of/paranoia over "wokeness".I don't know if it's really that accepted when there are huge swaths of the anime community (a little on here, a lot on Reddit, and an infestation on Twitter) that complain about fan service, lolis (even school-age girls) and stuff like slaves in Shield Hero, depiction of rape in Goblin Slayer or depictions of anything resembling 20th century facism. Reddit and Twitter are so paranoid about anime girls because they are presented in a way that is exagerratedly cute that if they have small boobs those companies will think it's underage and censor. Then you have the creator of SAO who has come out repeatedly saying how he wants to change the future of the franchise to "reflect modern global standards". I don't care how much someone hates SAO they have to recognize what an important, influential part of anime it is. If it doesn become 'woke' and continues to see success you can bet other Japanese creators and authors will follow suit. I won't even start on the "modern global standards" cultural imperialism shit. Makes my blood boil, that stuff. (Meanwhile I'm over here being annoyed that there are not more mature-looking anime girls with flat chests/small breasts.) Anyhow, you're still seeing this as a grand cultural turf war, which is a vast overblowing of what is basically just people having opinions on stuff. Saiche said: To say "Japan is not largely involved in politics" shows how little you know of Japanese politics.As long as the west doesn't get largely involved, you shouldn't have to worry about politics getting pushed in there. Japan is not largely involved in politics and constantly talking about them like we are, or at least that's what I've heard. They just aren't necessarily talking about the same issues, at the same time, in the same spaces, as we westerners are. You want Japanese politics? Here, let me dig up one topic that's vaguely similar to the recent western spat over gender issues. A topic du jour happens to be high heels. This is a pretty big thing; here's the country's health minister, eight days ago, arguing against a petition by telling people that high heels can be "necessary and appropriate" for workplaces to mandate them. You wanna argue about high heels in the office? Enjoy. From what I've heard the general population is not largely involved in politics. That's what I was saying. I was pointing out it's unlikely that Japan will put politics into anime because the targeted audience doesn't care about politics. I've watched decent amount of anime and not once can I recall political issues popping up (except declining birthrates ofc). |
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