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Poll: Sarazanmai Episode 9 Discussion


#1
Jun 6, 9:19 AM

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THIS IS AN ANIME ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS THE MANGA BEYOND THIS EPISODE.
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Oh Tooi, this guy is such a wildcard in the show. Getting caught up in the organization's drama again...

Felt like a thrilling episode with less humor and more suspense. Tooi is a guy to keep an eye on since he now operates with his brother. Also some interesting development for Kazuki. 2 more episode left :(
 
#2
Jun 6, 1:44 PM

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I feel really REALLY REALLY bad how the scores are so low for such an awe-inspiring show :(
 
#3
Jun 6, 1:44 PM

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Yeah, I saw that coming
 
#4
Jun 6, 1:49 PM

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Ohhh my, I'm SO HAPPY Enta has high potential of being saved!

The first half really worries me, but then being Kappa is like living in between the land of death (ep1 mentioned it), so turning into Kappa actually save his ass! (pun intended)

Also poor Toi. Your brother is a freaking asshole (already proven in ep8, and revealed in ep9), but deep down he still loves his brother alot because he is the only connection he has left (after all the bad thing he has done).

But sorry to say this, I'm actually alittle happy that his brother is dead now because it means the gay trio has a high chance to be together in the end -> potential of HE unlocked! Was so worried that this may not be the case, but I have high hope after watching this episode.


Also wholesome hug <3




Cute young Kazuki and Enta :D



 
#5
Jun 6, 2:02 PM

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That last scene was a cinematic masterpiece
 
#6
Jun 6, 2:50 PM

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Very Dark analysis of what could potentially happen in the future:

Did you guys notice the ED last scene shadows are still 2 like in episode 8 when Enta got shot, despite already confirming Enta has the potential of being saved this episode?



The ep8 and ep9 shadow count may very well be referring to the betrayal/ disconnection of Toi, not Enta, because now Toi may want the dish as much as ever to revive his brother.

If Ikuhara really want the plot to be really dark, then Toi may very well become a villain and join the 3 way battle of fighting for Dishes of Hope. (And he is the only character who hasn't reveal anything bad / ugly throughout the series)

Police duo need Dish of hope to save Mabu

Toi need Dish to save his brother

Kazuki need Dish to save Enta.


This could get really ugly real soon, depending on how well Toi cope with his brother's death.
 
#7
Jun 6, 2:51 PM

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I guess I'm now allowed to mark the SUFFERING on my bingo. Jesus fucking christ, my poor heart. Reo's poor heart. Kazu's poor heart. EVERYONE'S POOR HEART.

And was it Reo also a machine? He touched his heart and there was a ticking and then the machine-heart that he took from Mabu. Also the "cheating" scene was painful. JESUS CHRIST. This episode was... fffffffff UGH.

Modified by MaahHeim, Jun 6, 2:58 PM
 
#8
Jun 6, 2:59 PM

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Can Toi's bro be count as anti heroes? (He's really evil but he still would do anything for his bro)
 
#9
Jun 6, 3:06 PM

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Watching this makes me think "they can fix it all and save everyone with the wish" but after seeing penguindrum and yurikuma I know the best I can hope for is a bittersweet ending.

FUCK YOU IKUHARA! STOP KILLING CHARACTERS TO MAKE ME CRY!
 
Jun 6, 3:53 PM

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CSM that's END!!!! I cry a lot
 
Jun 6, 4:16 PM

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This ep. destroyed my poor little heart. ;_; I just hope that at least the trio get the happy. Please. T_T
 
Jun 6, 4:21 PM

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I still have a vague guess that the boss otter in the OP will reward a gold dish so there might be two wishes in the end.

Or perhaps, Reo/Mabu will take 5 silver dishes and make theirs wish in ep 10 just to "liven" things up.

"Kuji brothers" tag made it to top trend last night after ep 5 again.
 
Jun 6, 4:22 PM

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Can we go back to the catchy songs please mom? I'm scared...


Reread number 8 of REOMABU manga for healing I guess, if that even helps me after this episode...


Don't worry about being lame now, you were always lame anyway!



 
Jun 6, 4:33 PM

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This was intense, and I wasn't ready for it. Reo and Mabu seemed fine and closer than ever. Reo had his head in the clouds after having Mabu 'back', even singing about being the ultimate couple, but then he found Mabu with that otter, which represents his desires, and now he wants that last dish Kazuki has to have his 'real' Mabu back again. Then there's Enta, who is still doomed, but thanks to Keppi, who was put back together by Sara after being shattered, still also has a chance to fight.

Toi saw in the news that Enta was in critical condition too, but Enta had Kazuki by his side, while Chikai only had him, and so he didn't go back there. But even though Kazuki was there for Enta, who was there for Kazuki? He even called Toi's name. I know Enta's family was also there, but it's not the same. But well, Kazuki and Enta made up thanks to Enta's sister, and I think that Kazuki remembered that he met Toi four years ago thanks to his talk with Haruka. What hurt the most though, despite everything, was the death of Chikai. I was kind of expecting it, but I kind of wasn't. That last scene, with Toi reminiscing about moments they shared as he looked down on his lifeless body, after finding that photo... I'm weak to those kind of sequences and it made me cry. I doubt the 'feels' are stopping here though.
 
Jun 6, 5:35 PM
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One word: M A S T E R P I E C E
 
Jun 6, 5:38 PM

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If this series wasn't ending in 2 more episodes, I would have dropped here at this episode.

The tone is all over the place. It tries to be funny with Sara & Keppi's little adventures for pretty much nothing. And when Kazuki is crying his heart out for Enta it turns the drama into just cheap comedy by bringing Enta in kappa mode.

Enta's sister couldn't be further an anime character even if she wanted to. The complete lack of grasping the situation is baffling, she's more infatuated in comforting Kazuki than losing her mind because her own little brother was shot and the dcotor already stated that he wouldn't make it thru the night. A real person would go haywire and would just think what will her life will be without her brother, or be pissed furious looking for answers from the cops. That's kinda my gripe with other side characters, like Haruka, that despite his condition he only lives in order to make Kazuki happy. None of these side characters feel real, they just live as decoration in order to make the main characters shine.

Lastly talking about anime characters, there's Toi's brother. Yeah, we get it, he's just a psychopath that has no empathy for anyone surrounding him, he pretty much proved that by killing Masa in cold blood just because he was a fanboy and he was making him a favor by stopping his future suffering. That's not enough, he has to show off the audience how much of a badass he is by pointing a gun towards his own brother. And then he gets shot by the other mobster and Chikai in his godlike gunslinger skills kills him off with one shot to the head and then we get the sobbiest most ridiculous dying scene with a flashback on how he was a regular good guy towards his brother before his life changed forever because of the mafia. Am I supposed to feel empathy for this derranged guy just because some sappy music is being played while we see flashbacks of him being a good guy and we I have to ignore all the blood that's on his hands?

Sorry Ikuhara, I just don't buy your bullshit.
Modified by Kimurah, Jun 6, 5:44 PM
 
Jun 6, 5:41 PM

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Probably my favorite episode, the piano at the end together with Chikai slow death was very painful.
this show is so underappreciated, i hope it's having some traction in Japan.

Kimurah said:
If this series wasn't ending in 2 more episodes, I would have dropped here at this episode.

The tone is all over the place. It tries to be funny with Sara & Keppi's little adventures for pretty much nothing. And when Kazuki is crying his heart out for Enta it turns the drama into just cheap comedy by bringing Enta in kappa mode.

Enta's sister couldn't be further an anime character even if she wanted to. The complete lack of grasping the situation is baffling, she's more infatuated in comforting Kazuki than losing her mind because her own little brother was shot and the dcotor already stated that he wouldn't make it thru the night. A real person would go haywire and would just think what will her life will be without her brother, or be pissed furious looking for answers from the cops. That's kinda my gripe with other side characters, like Haruka, that despite his condition he only lives in order to make Kazuki happy. None of these side characters feel real, they just live as decoration in order to make the main characters shine.

Lastly talking about anime characters, there's Toi's brother. Yeah, we get it, he's just a psychopath that has no empathy for anyone surrounding him, he pretty much proved that by killing Masa in cold blood just because he was a fanboy and he was making him a favor by stopping his future suffering. That's not enough, he has to show off the audience how much of a badass he is by poiting a gun towards his own brother. And then he gets shot by the other mobster and Chikai in his godlike gunslinger skills kills him off with one shot to the head and then we get the sobbiest most ridiculous dying scene with a flashback on how he was a regular good guy towards his brother before his life changed forever because of the mafia. Am I supposed to feel empathy for this derranged guy just because some sappy music is being played while we see flashbacks of him being a good guy and we I have to ignore all the blood that's on his hands?

Sorry Ikuhara, I just don't buy your bullshit.


Sometimes it's better to just let it go.
 
Jun 6, 6:07 PM

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lezerman said:
Probably my favorite episode, the piano at the end together with Chikai slow death was very painful.
this show is so underappreciated, i hope it's having some traction in Japan.

Kimurah said:
If this series wasn't ending in 2 more episodes, I would have dropped here at this episode.

The tone is all over the place. It tries to be funny with Sara & Keppi's little adventures for pretty much nothing. And when Kazuki is crying his heart out for Enta it turns the drama into just cheap comedy by bringing Enta in kappa mode.

Enta's sister couldn't be further an anime character even if she wanted to. The complete lack of grasping the situation is baffling, she's more infatuated in comforting Kazuki than losing her mind because her own little brother was shot and the dcotor already stated that he wouldn't make it thru the night. A real person would go haywire and would just think what will her life will be without her brother, or be pissed furious looking for answers from the cops. That's kinda my gripe with other side characters, like Haruka, that despite his condition he only lives in order to make Kazuki happy. None of these side characters feel real, they just live as decoration in order to make the main characters shine.

Lastly talking about anime characters, there's Toi's brother. Yeah, we get it, he's just a psychopath that has no empathy for anyone surrounding him, he pretty much proved that by killing Masa in cold blood just because he was a fanboy and he was making him a favor by stopping his future suffering. That's not enough, he has to show off the audience how much of a badass he is by poiting a gun towards his own brother. And then he gets shot by the other mobster and Chikai in his godlike gunslinger skills kills him off with one shot to the head and then we get the sobbiest most ridiculous dying scene with a flashback on how he was a regular good guy towards his brother before his life changed forever because of the mafia. Am I supposed to feel empathy for this derranged guy just because some sappy music is being played while we see flashbacks of him being a good guy and we I have to ignore all the blood that's on his hands?

Sorry Ikuhara, I just don't buy your bullshit.


Sometimes it's better to just let it go.


NO U

Adding more characters to comply with reply rules.
 
Jun 6, 6:08 PM

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Toi's brother was a reckless mad dog especially in shooting Masa. I would've said he got what's due to him but after the memory lane he had with his little brother I just couldn't. Toi was the only thing that mattered to him in the world and nothing else mattered including their parents. I was really touched!

Reo and Mabu creep me out for real no lie. They make my skin crawl whenever they're shown! But I like the show though!
"You know the rules, kill them all and keep moving "--- Lil Wayne- John
 
Jun 6, 6:20 PM

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For what it's worth I'm enjoying this a lot better than his last show.

I preface with "for what it's worth" because I really don't know why

but it be what it be
 
Jun 6, 6:48 PM

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In the after-credits scene, when the piano version of "Cavalleria Rusticana: Intermezzo" kicks in... flawless.

» Escapism.


 
Jun 6, 7:34 PM
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Kimurah said:
If this series wasn't ending in 2 more episodes, I would have dropped here at this episode.

The tone is all over the place. It tries to be funny with Sara & Keppi's little adventures for pretty much nothing. And when Kazuki is crying his heart out for Enta it turns the drama into just cheap comedy by bringing Enta in kappa mode.

Enta's sister couldn't be further an anime character even if she wanted to. The complete lack of grasping the situation is baffling, she's more infatuated in comforting Kazuki than losing her mind because her own little brother was shot and the dcotor already stated that he wouldn't make it thru the night. A real person would go haywire and would just think what will her life will be without her brother, or be pissed furious looking for answers from the cops. That's kinda my gripe with other side characters, like Haruka, that despite his condition he only lives in order to make Kazuki happy. None of these side characters feel real, they just live as decoration in order to make the main characters shine.

Lastly talking about anime characters, there's Toi's brother. Yeah, we get it, he's just a psychopath that has no empathy for anyone surrounding him, he pretty much proved that by killing Masa in cold blood just because he was a fanboy and he was making him a favor by stopping his future suffering. That's not enough, he has to show off the audience how much of a badass he is by pointing a gun towards his own brother. And then he gets shot by the other mobster and Chikai in his godlike gunslinger skills kills him off with one shot to the head and then we get the sobbiest most ridiculous dying scene with a flashback on how he was a regular good guy towards his brother before his life changed forever because of the mafia. Am I supposed to feel empathy for this derranged guy just because some sappy music is being played while we see flashbacks of him being a good guy and we I have to ignore all the blood that's on his hands?

Sorry Ikuhara, I just don't buy your bullshit.

tone is a really bullshit thing to complain about because being able to blur the line is requires a lot of skill and affects depth. shows that keep a "consistent tone" tend to be one-dimensional and uninteresting.

comparing an anime character to what a "real person would do" is some serious rookie critic shit. trying to guess how a real person reacts in a fictional situation is a fool's errand because 1) everyone reacts differently, there is no "correct way"; 2) oftentimes fictional situations cannot be replicated in real life, ergo it's impossible to guess how accurate a character's reaction is (this isn't really the case here, but it should be mentioned nonetheless). what matters most is how believable the character's reaction in dramatic context, which i would say it's pretty reasonable in this case. some people cope by transferring the loss on someone else and by attempting to help that person. that's just how it is. furthermore, how do you know she wasn't grieving off-camera? or a more pertinent way to phrase it, why would they waste screentime depicting some side character that doesn't actually matter grieving? should the grandma have her own scene too? you would just complain about the show being too bloated by focusing on shit that doesn't matter then.

also you completely misread toi's brother's final scenes, which makes sense since you think the "tone was all over the place" bullshit. he's not being depicted as a psychopath, more as someone that really struggles to "connect" so he does the complete opposite by burning his bridges in the most extreme way. the whole episode is supposed to put the viewer in toi's shoes of questioning whether or not his brother cares about him, and toi (and thus the viewer) finds out the answer by the end, which is unfortunately too late. pointing the gun towards his brother was a mislead to set up the post-credits scene which you clearly didn't comprehend. he was pointing it at the guy on the boat the whole time because he always was looking out for toi (toi is on the ground having been pushed to safety out of the way by his brother, an action that led him defenseless). the brother saying "you ruined it" refers to the fact that toi was in the way as a result of him confronting his brother. if he hadn't doubted his brother, he wouldn't have been in the way, the bigger picture being that toi was always in the way of his brother's complete freedom and disconnection because toi was the one thing he cared about (signaled by the picture in his pocket of everyone except toi crossed out).
Modified by bitchassdarius, Jun 6, 7:53 PM
 
Jun 6, 7:39 PM
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Sara broke Keppi terribly. lol. Truck-kun has joined the Otters, it seems.

After the news said one out of the two victims died, I paused and tried to recover myself from the shock. But, then I saw the picture Sara was showing, and got so relieved cuz that wasn't Enta.

Kazuki, once again, felt like he was helpless because no one listened to him. The two policemen were even being controlled by Mabu.

Reo finally accepted Mabu as real, and we also got quite the confirmation that they are lovers. Then, he gets a reminder that Mabu isn't real. Now, Reo is trying to get all of the dishes.

We finally saw the time Kazuki and Enta became friends. They also explained about Enta's imaginations where Kazuki says "kankei oo-ari da!"

We got the origin of their saratto pose. Didn't think we would.

Enta came back as a kappa, but he has a timer on him. Now, Kazuki needs all five of the silver Dishes of Hope.

Tooi's brother died. Doesn't that mean Tooi also needs to have all the five dishes?

There are three people, all of whom probably need all five of the dishes.

I don't want Tooi and Kazuki to fight. Tooi has been in quite a vulnerable position lately, and I hope he tries to protect the connection he already has with his friends.
 
Jun 6, 8:20 PM

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^lmao that was some Pimp My Ride tackiness level truck-kun. Bland truck-kun from your equally bland isekai harem? nah this is a New Era.

Reo and Mabu fuck me up because word is that all their iterations in other properties are the same characters that we see here.

So going from a very domestic scenario (depicted in the spin-off manga) to this, puts me in a complex head space.

Then when you pair it off with very bold imagery like what we've seen here. It takes me to this constant oh shit i'm reeling.
This is the kind of stuff I look for in anime.

It was mentioned that characters simply act like characters but Sara is still a wild card because of her connection to both Keppi and Reo/Mabu. I hope there's further elaboration here.

Enta, Toi, and Kazuki i'm waiting for the end of this to form more of my thoughts on them.
I can relate to Toi's brother saying something like "connections are a pain in the ass" but I don't have sympathy for him.
Rather my sympathy goes to Toi himself because he should be out there playing the sport he loves with kids his age and not well... this.
 
Jun 6, 8:41 PM
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Oh no! Don't say either Toi or Kazuki will die for Enta, prolly Toi maybe. Since he has no family anymore and there is no connection around him, i think he becomes fatal boy who will do anything for his brother sake. And then maybe after Kazuki says that he remembers about their 1st meeting, suddenly Toi dies because of his distractions from their dangers around or maybe because someone tries to kill Kazuki but then Toi takes the bullet to save him (just like Enta did for Kazuki).

It's so frustating me so much.
 
Jun 6, 8:51 PM
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bitchassdarius said:

also you completely misread toi's brother's final scenes, which makes sense since you think the "tone was all over the place" bullshit. he's not being depicted as a psychopath, more as someone that really struggles to "connect" so he does the complete opposite by burning his bridges in the most extreme way. the whole episode is supposed to put the viewer in toi's shoes of questioning whether or not his brother cares about him, and toi (and thus the viewer) finds out the answer by the end, which is unfortunately too late. pointing the gun towards his brother was a mislead to set up the post-credits scene which you clearly didn't comprehend. he was pointing it at the guy on the boat the whole time because he always was looking out for toi (toi is on the ground having been pushed to safety out of the way by his brother, an action that led him defenseless). the brother saying "you ruined it" refers to the fact that toi was in the way as a result of him confronting his brother. if he hadn't doubted his brother, he wouldn't have been in the way, the bigger picture being that toi was always in the way of his brother's complete freedom and disconnection because toi was the one thing he cared about (signaled by the picture in his pocket of everyone except toi crossed out).

I'm glad someone else noticed this, especially the part about putting the viewer in Toi's shoes and making it ambiguous until the right time. Anyone who has watched Utena's seventh episode knows exactly how well Ikuhara deals with ambiguity in anything he directs by putting the viewer in a character's shoes but only actually giving crucial information when it's the right time in order to bring out the pathos from the audience. Utena's seventh episode (or at least the part that's relevant to what I'm talking about) basically consists of


This is quite literally the same device being used here, but replacing the ambiguity about
with Chikai's feelings about Toi; how he treats the "good" people in the episode; and pretty much everything in the final minutes - especially the picture - respectively. I'd argue that Utena's execution of the concept is probably better overall since unfulfilled love is a theme that's much easier for people to sympathize than Toi's problematic relationship with his brother, but Sarazanmai still did it very well and in a very "Ikuhara-esque" manner.
Modified by SStrikerV3, Jun 6, 8:58 PM
 
Jun 6, 9:46 PM

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bitchassdarius said:
tone is a really bullshit thing to complain about because being able to blur the line is requires a lot of skill and affects depth. shows that keep a "consistent tone" tend to be one-dimensional and uninteresting.


This is some of the most weeb bullshit response I've read in a very long time. Tone is a very important asset of a story in order to make it believeable to a large audience with a wide array of cultural knowledge, rather than impress the most gullible weebs that take everything as credible and granted just because "it's anime" and you have to either roll with it or just get out of it. Lets take off the gloves and agree that Ikuhara works are just cult works worshipped by the same sheepheerd of brainwashed followers.

"Consistent Tone tends to be one dimensional" you're confusing tone with depth. A work of fiction or based in real life can have multiple layers based in it's characters and how elaborate the story is. You mentioned it depends on the skill to blur the line, and that's exactly how badly it was crafted in that scene that goes from emotional to a complete 3 ring circus act in less than a second. It's all about time and place, and neither of the two were met in that scene with kazuki and Enta.

Take as an example the recently finished HBO mini-series Chernobyl. It's always grim and devastating, but it managed to fit in some visual dick jokes in episode 3 with the miners buttnaked digging a tunnel to access the underbelly of the reactor. If that kind of joke was presented in the most grim moments when Legasov & Scherbina are assesing the damages and how many men would be required to contain the current situation. But hey, don't take my word up, I'm sure that a series with a consistant tone like Chernobyl will go unoticed by a lot of people, and great pieces of writing with tonal whiplash like Sarazanmai will be remebered forever by that huge 50K number of user who are watching it and rating it here on MAL.

bitchassdarius said:

comparing an anime character to what a "real person would do" is some serious rookie critic shit. trying to guess how a real person reacts in a fictional situation is a fool's errand because 1) everyone reacts differently, there is no "correct way"; 2) oftentimes fictional situations cannot be replicated in real life, ergo it's impossible to guess how accurate a character's reaction is (this isn't really the case here, but it should be mentioned nonetheless). what matters most is how believable the character's reaction in dramatic context, which i would say it's pretty reasonable in this case. some people cope by transferring the loss on someone else and by attempting to help that person. that's just how it is.


"Trying to guess" is indeed a rookie mistake. But a good critic knows how real people react because he or she has lived long enough with different people and has the grasp of how "real" people react to life and death situations and has lived them on his/her own. "Everybody reacts different" is the most retarded weeb response to everything as a defense to bad writing depicting human nature. If everyone reacted in such a different way, writing good beliveable characters would be like a coin toss because every single person would have their own parameters on how to react. There are indeed variations from people to people and cultures, but they aren't that huge that a character that is about to lose her closest relative should remain this passive and caring to someone else who is not next of kin.

bitchassdarius said:

furthermore, how do you know she wasn't grieving off-camera? or a more pertinent way to phrase it, why would they waste screentime depicting some side character that doesn't actually matter grieving? should the grandma have her own scene too? you would just complain about the show being too bloated by focusing on shit that doesn't matter then.


Oh the irony. You're calling my criticism rookie level, but you're pulling out of your ass the lamest excuses to defend bad writing with hypotethic outcomes. If Ikuhara would have wanted to depict her sorrow, it would have been on camera rather than being vague. That's 101 of storytelling, show don't tell, and in this case it isn't even a tell or implicit, it's a blatant omision in order to give more time to other scenes. Should the grandmother have her own scene too? of course she should, but based on what I already pointed out how tunnel vision this story is being told by making the main characters the only ones that matter, why would Ikuhara bother making the story with more layers? See, this show is pretty one dimensional because none of the side characters matter, they live only to make the main characters shine, their chara design are a waste of good effort, might as well have been drawn like blank cardboard cutouts in the same way the blank cutouts fill up the streets.

bitchassdarius said:

also you completely misread toi's brother's final scenes, which makes sense since you think the "tone was all over the place" bullshit. he's not being depicted as a psychopath, more as someone that really struggles to "connect" so he does the complete opposite by burning his bridges in the most extreme way.


Psychopath:

noun
a person suffering from chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behavior. Informal: an unstable and aggressive person.

Psychopathy can be thought of as a more severe form of sociopathy with more symptoms. Therefore, all psychopaths are sociopaths but sociopaths are not necessarily psychopaths.

According to the Society for the Study of Psychopathy, psychopath traits include:

Lack of guilt/remorse
Lack of empathy
Lack of deep emotional attachments
Narcissism
Superficial charm
Dishonesty
Manipulativeness
Reckless risk-taking

Yeah, that sounds a lot like Toi's brother, and your depiction of him by "burning bridges in the most extreme way" is just an embelishment of the same traits of a psychopath with no remorse, manipulative, lack of empathy & reckless behaviour. The whole flashback sequence is just cheap emotional manipulation run by the book


bitchassdarius said:
the whole episode is supposed to put the viewer in toi's shoes of questioning whether or not his brother cares about him, and toi (and thus the viewer) finds out the answer by the end, which is unfortunately too late. pointing the gun towards his brother was a mislead to set up the post-credits scene which you clearly didn't comprehend. he was pointing it at the guy on the boat the whole time because he always was looking out for toi (toi is on the ground having been pushed to safety out of the way by his brother, an action that led him defenseless). the brother saying "you ruined it" refers to the fact that toi was in the way as a result of him confronting his brother. if he hadn't doubted his brother, he wouldn't have been in the way, the bigger picture being that toi was always in the way of his brother's complete freedom and disconnection because toi was the one thing he cared about (signaled by the picture in his pocket of everyone except toi crossed out).


The whole setup is a typical bait & switch, cut to scene and make an asspull explanation. But thing is you're completely ignoring key elements.

Chikai is pointing his gun in a lower angle in order to put it on Toi's head level (wich btw is standing and is changed to the aftercredits as being on the ground). It's completely impossible to land a shot on the mobster who is in a far place that's also quite elevated, he would have needed to raise his arm in an elevated angle in order to land a hit, wich he does after he's being shot and he has full vision and trayectory of the mobster wich he hadn't seen before. He wasn't "aiming" at the mobster the whole time as you falsely claim.

Sure, Chikai cares for Toi, that has never been doubted. But the way it's portrayed with "fuck everyone else" but my brother, is still manipulative from the writers perspectvie in order to make a psychopath a loveable character who sacrifices for the one he loves as his "redeeming" act. This is nothing new, in fact Happy Sugar Life did the exact same thing but at least Satou had more characterization in order to explain her psychosis.

 
Jun 6, 11:03 PM

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Kimurah said:
If this series wasn't ending in 2 more episodes, I would have dropped here at this episode.

The tone is all over the place. It tries to be funny with Sara & Keppi's little adventures for pretty much nothing. And when Kazuki is crying his heart out for Enta it turns the drama into just cheap comedy by bringing Enta in kappa mode.

Enta's sister couldn't be further an anime character even if she wanted to. The complete lack of grasping the situation is baffling, she's more infatuated in comforting Kazuki than losing her mind because her own little brother was shot and the dcotor already stated that he wouldn't make it thru the night. A real person would go haywire and would just think what will her life will be without her brother, or be pissed furious looking for answers from the cops. That's kinda my gripe with other side characters, like Haruka, that despite his condition he only lives in order to make Kazuki happy. None of these side characters feel real, they just live as decoration in order to make the main characters shine.

Lastly talking about anime characters, there's Toi's brother. Yeah, we get it, he's just a psychopath that has no empathy for anyone surrounding him, he pretty much proved that by killing Masa in cold blood just because he was a fanboy and he was making him a favor by stopping his future suffering. That's not enough, he has to show off the audience how much of a badass he is by pointing a gun towards his own brother. And then he gets shot by the other mobster and Chikai in his godlike gunslinger skills kills him off with one shot to the head and then we get the sobbiest most ridiculous dying scene with a flashback on how he was a regular good guy towards his brother before his life changed forever because of the mafia. Am I supposed to feel empathy for this derranged guy just because some sappy music is being played while we see flashbacks of him being a good guy and we I have to ignore all the blood that's on his hands?

Sorry Ikuhara, I just don't buy your bullshit.


I think that's the whole point?
The author don't want the episode tone to be completely dark and edgy like some other edgy shows, they don't want to make it overdramatic for the whole episode too.

I think the tone is perfect, because then you can get the contradiction of light happy tone contrast to the darker theme . This is how Made in Abyss succeed too.
Before Riku broke his arm, the whole tone of exploration is kinda light/ adventurous, but in that same episode everything went to hell.

You have full right to not like this type of method, and have full right to drop it as you like, but your criticism may not be as objective as you thought you are.

Conclusion: you do you, like it or not.

PS: The sister part complaint is ridiculous. So you put your OWN assumption and what YOU would do in that scenario and assume everyone should act like that?
Maybe the sister knew Enta care more about Kazuki than her? That's why knowing all this he wants Kazuki to be by his side at last moment? Maybe she can't bare to see Enta like that?
Have you consider all the possibility? Or you just assume your own action into it and think everyone should act the same way base on your own perception?

Conclusion: glad you're not the story writer. Just drop it I guess?
I bet this series is 1/10 for you already so why bother continue?
Modified by Ventus_S, Jun 6, 11:12 PM
 
Jun 6, 11:23 PM

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Considering Otone should have some qualities/background knowledge for being a teacher, and the fact that you are dealing with a kid grieving for his friend and currently blaming himself, I don't think Otone making a fuss over her brother's case would do anything good. That would just make things worse for Kazuki.

Plus, she is shown to care enough about Enta to even know how important Kazuki is to him. That was reasonable to suppress her own grief for the better. I don't even understand why there should be more screentime to depict her sorrow which is pretty obvious.
 
Jun 6, 11:32 PM

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I’ve been on the edge of my seat all week over this episode and it didn’t disappoint me.
The scene with Kazuki and kappa!Enta is legitimately one of my favorites now. It’s just so sweet!!

Also in relation to Enta’s sister, she really seemed like she was trying to hold it together to be the strong one. She actually broke down for a second after Kazuki ran away and while she was explaining stuff to him, she sounded close to tears at some points.

Man that ending though, I went into the ED prepared for the worst and somehow with the addition of the flashback on events in brother’s life before everything went wrong really hurt lmao
 
Jun 7, 12:32 AM

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Best episode, Chikais death was really well done even if it was expected to happen.

Kinda amazing to see that even Nyantaro had a connection in the past with Chikai and Toi in that flashback as a stray cat? Wonder if Nyantaro's mansion was the "Dish Mansion" of Keppi & Sara, the style kinda fits and there arent other rich people who fit the bill to make another link between the characters.

Sara continues to throw my expections off, wonder when we finally get to see her side and if she did meet Reo? His parallel with the "The ultimate couple" like Keppi & Sara feels a bit too much, to be just him being happy about Mabu in that moment even if it could be just that. Not to mention how the Otter Tribe truck-kun seemed very convenient lol
Modified by sanlei, Jun 7, 12:39 AM
 
Jun 7, 12:53 AM

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Yeah, we get it, he's just a psychopath that has no empathy for anyone surrounding him, he pretty much proved that by killing Masa in cold blood just because he was a fanboy and he was making him a favor by stopping his future suffering. That's not enough, he has to show off the audience how much of a badass he is by pointing a gun towards his own brother.


There was another reason to kill him : he was a chatterbox and he was blathering about Toi's secret.

And he don't really try to kill Toi, I think it's was just a bluff to scare him and convince him to come back where his friends are.


(1st post in english, I hope there are not too many mistakes)
 
Jun 7, 5:31 AM
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Kimurah said:

This is some of the most weeb bullshit response I've read in a very long time. Tone is a very important asset of a story in order to make it believeable to a large audience with a wide array of cultural knowledge, rather than impress the most gullible weebs that take everything as credible and granted just because "it's anime" and you have to either roll with it or just get out of it. Lets take off the gloves and agree that Ikuhara works are just cult works worshipped by the same sheepheerd of brainwashed followers.

Imagine calling people "weebs" when you're literally watching anime, and the worst of all, calling them weebs over defending a series made by a director that absolutely DOES NOT follow any of the current industry's tropes and standards and that does not do what would otherwise be called "anime for weebs" by the same person who made this comment. Ikuhara haters are an absolute joke like always, and the actual brainwashed people when they call others that.

We also really see your thing in that bolded part: you actually don't like Ikuhara's methods of storytelling, you're just watching his shows to hate on them (probably having no idea of what actually defines him and why people actually like him just like that papsoshea guy who insisted that "all his anime are the same" as well), you absolutely miss the point severely on why he does everything he does, and also calls literally everyone "brainwashed" for actually understanding and liking it, when you'd have the exactly opposite opinion if you actually went somewhere like the In The Rose Garden forums and saw the countless discussions people do about his work, especially Utena (however, do all of them a favor and actually do NOT go there, because they don't need someone as conceited as you in their middle).

Not liking Ikuhara is fine, trying to paint your prejudiced opinion as objective is absolutely something I hate, and that's why I'm going to take time to point out what's wrong in each of your arguments.

Kimurah said:
"Consistent Tone tends to be one dimensional" you're confusing tone with depth. A work of fiction or based in real life can have multiple layers based in it's characters and how elaborate the story is. You mentioned it depends on the skill to blur the line, and that's exactly how badly it was crafted in that scene that goes from emotional to a complete 3 ring circus act in less than a second. It's all about time and place, and neither of the two were met in that scene with kazuki and Enta.

Take as an example the recently finished HBO mini-series Chernobyl. It's always grim and devastating, but it managed to fit in some visual dick jokes in episode 3 with the miners buttnaked digging a tunnel to access the underbelly of the reactor. If that kind of joke was presented in the most grim moments when Legasov & Scherbina are assesing the damages and how many men would be required to contain the current situation. But hey, don't take my word up, I'm sure that a series with a consistant tone like Chernobyl will go unoticed by a lot of people, and great pieces of writing with tonal whiplash like Sarazanmai will be remebered forever by that huge 50K number of user who are watching it and rating it here on MAL.


Have you actually watched the episode? The tone and and its progression are actually consistent and natural, it's just that you're expecting the episode to be pure drama and wanting to force the director to take your intent for the anime as what he should follow and is trying to paint what you think to be better as objectively better when it isn't (there isn't even "objectively better" when we're talking about art anyway, unless you can prove through pure logic that A is better than B, it's all your taste and trying to paint it as anything else is cringeworthy).

The thing about this episode specifically but which is true for a lot of Sarazanmai is that you have around four stories going at the same time. In this episode we have:

1) Kazuki's and Enta's drama.
2) Toi's and Chikai's drama.
3) Reo and Mabu's drama.
4) Sara and Keppi's stuff.

Ikuhara switches between all of those viewpoints at once in order to make the storytelling more dynamic. That's why you think it has constant shifts in tone: he's not telling one story, he's telling four stories at the same time (and that's actually a fucking achievement when you have 11 episodes with 20 minutes to develop everything, Yuri Kuma's main sin was not being as dynamic as this and this led many people to thinking it was tedious), and using the more lighthearted scenes as usual comedic relief. When you actually take the scenes together in their actual chronological progression to each other, instead of the order presented in the episode, however, the tone is kept consistent and natural. But then you're going to argue "the episode's scene progression is what matters!" Well, the episode's scene progression is ALSO consistent and natural. The only place where you have a drastic shift in tone with no reason to happen is before the opening even plays, which shows Enta being taken to the hospital and Kazuki standing in the dark, and then switches to Sara trying to move Keppi and him being broken by a truck (which seems to be a parody of isekai stuff), and it's hardly something to nitpick about since the episode didn't even really start yet.

As for the second time when it happens, let's check out the scene progression right before and after it:

1) Enta's sister comforting Kazuki. (dark, dramatic tone, ends with Kazuki calling for Toi).
2) Toi and Chikai meeting with Masa. Starts neutral, then becomes a bit lighthearted once Masa starts acting like a clown.
3) Reo and Mabu's antics. Basically lighthearted from the start to end, even a bit romantic depending on how you look at it.
4) Sara and Keppi's adventures. Tone is completely comedic. This is the scene you complained about being an inappropriate tone shift.
5) Toi seeing Masa talking with Chikai. Starts neutral, becomes lowkey tense by the end with Toi's reaction.
6) Back to the hospital, Enta's sister talking with Kazuki. Dark and dramatic like the first one.

The actual progression of this part of the episode is "dark/dramatic -> neutral -> lighthearted -> lighthearted/romantic -> comedic -> neutral -> tense -> dark/dramatic". It takes about six minutes for all these scenes to happen, the most serious ones generally take more time than the more comedic ones, but none of them except maybe "Sara and Keppi's adventures" take less than 30 seconds. I can't see how this is going from emotional to three circus ring acts in less than one second, nor how this progression in unnatural. Saying the the tone is "all over the place" when there's two fucking comedic relief scenes in the entire episode and one happens before the opening even plays, the other one has a natural tone progression to it as I've demonstrated by actually listing the tone progression and when none interfere in all the other plot threads going on in the episode makes absolutely no sense and there's no way you can argue the opposite other than "I didn't like what the director was going for" which is perfectly okay but just your opinion like always.

Now that "Sara and Keppi's adventures" and the tone being all over the place stuff is refuted, the only only thing left that's supposedly valid about your reasoning is: Enta's sister reaction about her brother's situation, and the shift in tone right after Kazuki discovers Enta is not dead yet.

Kimurah said:

"Trying to guess" is indeed a rookie mistake. But a good critic knows how real people react because he or she has lived long enough with different people and has the grasp of how "real" people react to life and death situations and has lived them on his/her own. "Everybody reacts different" is the most retarded weeb response to everything as a defense to bad writing depicting human nature. If everyone reacted in such a different way, writing good beliveable characters would be like a coin toss because every single person would have their own parameters on how to react. There are indeed variations from people to people and cultures, but they aren't that huge that a character that is about to lose her closest relative should remain this passive and caring to someone else who is not next of kin.

Your complaint's about Enta's sister reactions make no sense because if you actually paid attention to the animation (and Ikuhara is quite well known about his AUDIOVISUAL storytelling since his Utena days; this and his crazy use of symbolism are the things his fans generally like the most) you'd notice that she IS absolutely about to cry (her eyes are trembling, her tone of voice is that of a sad person even when she's trying to comfort Kazuki, she even actually breaks down by the end of one of the dramatic scene, so her sorrow is depicted on-screen) but she's trying to both act like an adult (especially since she is Kazuki's teacher and is supposed to set an example for him) and cope with her pain by transferring it to Kazuki and trying to comfort him since it's just as painful to him as it is to her. Her reaction is pretty much what you'd expect from a mature person, and the hints of sadness are still there (she even actually cries), in the audiovisual storytelling. I don't see how she's being "passive", you're the one who's nitpicking on things that don't exist.

By the way, since we're talking about how real people react to this kind of situation (which I do have the experience to talk about, since I lost my grandma some years ago, a situation in which, ironically, me and my parents tried to act mature in front of my little brother to comfort him even if we were actually sad and, in my case specifically, I only actually cried when I was alone), think about this: what if she had lost someone important in the past (such as say, her grandpa, since grandma's husband doesn't seem to live with them it's easy to infer that he has probably died) and were already used to this kind of situation, and therefore this reaction wasn't as strong, even if it's still there, because she's also used to it? Since there's nothing to go on about what the character's past is (after all, she's a fucking secondary character and there's absolutely no reason to focus on her grieving storywise), you can't really judge her reaction in any way other than "I wanted it to be such even if it's not supposed to be such because my personal experience says that people don't act like this", which is ironic in two ways because: 1) her reaction is absolutely expected from a mature adult person such as a parent or big brother/sister who is front of a child, especially one who has already gone through this; and 2) because it shows that you're the one who's taking your personal experience or what you think to be "human nature" and making it universal in order to criticize a non-existent problem in the episode's writing, which is exactly what you YOURSELF criticized in your own comment, so you're the only one subject to the coin toss you criticized.

And then you finish this paragraph by appealing to popularity. Talk about an actual clown act. Are you going to call yourself a certified critic next? If you do, I'm going to laugh a whole lot, because you're literally taking out the most common examples of how to not criticize a show out of whatever book you have to criticize this one.

Only thing left now is Enta's revival, but I won't even take much time with that: the entire POINT of the scene is ending the ongoing drama up to that point since Enta isn't dead yet and Kazuki can still save him, so a drastic shift from dark to lighthearted actually makes sense: the audience has just discovered Enta is alive - which leads to a surprise - then Ikuhara holds that surpriseful tone for a bit with Kazuki being confused about why he has appeared as a kappa, before transitioning into a comedic scene that ends on a hopeful tone. If all of this ends tragically or in a bittersweet way, by the way (which wouldn't be really strange, since Ikuhara has only done one ending to this day in his own works that can be categorized as completely happy, and even in that ending the future is still uncertain), things are going to hit with double the impact, because he would have given false hope to the audience.
Kimurah said:

Oh the irony. You're calling my criticism rookie level, but you're pulling out of your ass the lamest excuses to defend bad writing with hypotethic outcomes. If Ikuhara would have wanted to depict her sorrow, it would have been on camera rather than being vague. That's 101 of storytelling, show don't tell, and in this case it isn't even a tell or implicit, it's a blatant omision in order to give more time to other scenes. Should the grandmother have her own scene too? of course she should, but based on what I already pointed out how tunnel vision this story is being told by making the main characters the only ones that matter, why would Ikuhara bother making the story with more layers? See, this show is pretty one dimensional because none of the side characters matter, they live only to make the main characters shine, their chara design are a waste of good effort, might as well have been drawn like blank cardboard cutouts in the same way the blank cutouts fill up the streets.

I've already explained how Ikuhara actually depicted her sorrow and you just weren't paying attention (also, criticizing Ikuhara for not doing "show, don't tell" is fucking hilarious when he's all about his visual storytelling, when he basically never does infodumps and when this scene is no exception to the rule), but this right here is absolutely hilarious, it's almost as bad as critics wanting Godzilla to focus on human drama. How in the fucking Earth do you want a 11-episode show to have extraordinary focus on secondary characters, when there's no time to focus on secondary characters in this kind of show and especially when there's an ongoing drama with the main characters being set up for nine episodes now? You can't do that, that's losing precious screentime, no director would do that for a series of this duration. And no, focusing mainly on main characters does not make it one-dimensional or superficial, treating its themes superficially and making cardboard main characters is what does that, which Sarazanmai is absolutely far from doing. The focus on secondary characters here is the exact same level as other shows, even famous ones, of the same duration. See Madoka, for an example, there's like a handful of scenes where any secondary character has relevance to the plot, the only ones that are vaguely relevant are Kyousuke (which gets pretty much no focus outside of Sayaka's own drama itself, so it's still centred around a main character) and Madoka's mother (who also does not get any relevant focus on herself other than giving life advice to Madoka when she's troubled and trying to stop her daughter from putting herself in danger in order to save her friend, so it's also still centred around a main character's drama as well). You have absolutely no reason or time to focus on any secondary character's drama that isn't relevant to the main character's drama in anime with this duration, and Sarazanmai ACTUALLY does that with the secondary characters that are actually important, see how it dedicated an entire episode to Toi and Chikai's past. Now, do you know an anime where secondary characters actually have an entire arc dedicated to them and their personal drama? Revolutionary Girl Utena. Another Ikuhara show. Even though you insult Ikuhara so much, he's the one who has actually done that to extents that few directors do. The entire Black Rose arc is basically that, other than the two episodes focused on Mikage and the usual Nanami episodes. However, Utena has 39 episodes. Sarazanmai has 11. That's about 2/7 of Utena's duration, a little more than a 3 hour-movie duration. Of course it's going to have a focus in the fucking main characters and leave secondaries out of scene unless they're relevant to the main characters. There's absolutely no intention to portray secondary characters having problems, and that's the right way to direct anime like this, otherwise you aren't going to have enough time to wrap up the main plot itself instead.

Kimurah said:

Psychopath:

noun
a person suffering from chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behavior. Informal: an unstable and aggressive person.

Psychopathy can be thought of as a more severe form of sociopathy with more symptoms. Therefore, all psychopaths are sociopaths but sociopaths are not necessarily psychopaths.

According to the Society for the Study of Psychopathy, psychopath traits include:

Lack of guilt/remorse
Lack of empathy
Lack of deep emotional attachments
Narcissism
Superficial charm
Dishonesty
Manipulativeness
Reckless risk-taking

Yeah, that sounds a lot like Toi's brother, and your depiction of him by "burning bridges in the most extreme way" is just an embelishment of the same traits of a psychopath with no remorse, manipulative, lack of empathy & reckless behaviour. The whole flashback sequence is just cheap emotional manipulation run by the book

No, you absolutely do not know what a psychopath is, the worst part is that what you just posted refutes your own point. Psychopaths are characterized by callous and manipulative SELF-SERVING behaviors, and a LACK OF EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENTS. Psychopaths need to be absolutely selfish and not care about anyone else other than themselves. All people are there to be used by them for their own purposes for them, even if they seem to care for someone it's either an act because caring for said person is going to get them personal gain, or if they do actually care, they can simply stop caring about them when push comes to shove (like they have an emotional switch). Tell me how Chikai's actions are like that when he cares more about his brother than himself as demonstrated since episode 3 and by the very end of this episode. They aren't, and therefore he is not a psychopath.
Kimurah said:

The whole setup is a typical bait & switch, cut to scene and make an asspull explanation. But thing is you're completely ignoring key elements.

Chikai is pointing his gun in a lower angle in order to put it on Toi's head level (wich btw is standing and is changed to the aftercredits as being on the ground). It's completely impossible to land a shot on the mobster who is in a far place that's also quite elevated, he would have needed to raise his arm in an elevated angle in order to land a hit, wich he does after he's being shot and he has full vision and trayectory of the mobster wich he hadn't seen before. He wasn't "aiming" at the mobster the whole time as you falsely claim.

This is actually correct but there's no asspull explanation about this scene in the episode because there's nothing unnatural about it. Chikai was probably just joking when he said that to Toi and pointed the gun at his head, he'd quite surely retract it right after, but exactly because of this moment of unawareness he was shot. The entire point of the scene is that if Toi didn't doubt Chikai, he probably wouldn't have been shot, which ends up being a reason for him to hate himself after he discovers his brother only cared for him by the very end, and that on another hand Chikai wouldn't be suspected if he didn't doubt others so much, both themes connected to the major "I can't connect" theme.

Kimurah said:

Sure, Chikai cares for Toi, that has never been doubted. But the way it's portrayed with "fuck everyone else" but my brother, is still manipulative from the writers perspectvie in order to make a psychopath a loveable character who sacrifices for the one he loves as his "redeeming" act. This is nothing new, in fact Happy Sugar Life did the exact same thing but at least Satou had more characterization in order to explain her psychosis.

It isn't because he is not a psychopath as I've already explained.

Done.
Modified by SStrikerV3, Jun 7, 8:41 AM
 
Jun 7, 5:53 AM
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Oh my...this episode took me everywhere! The endgame, or the sign is near. Both physically and emotionally.

Keppi struck by Truck-kun operating by the otters...only for him to be put back together in pieces, hilarious.
Toi going with Chikai to escape the capture...and obliterate his enemies. For his older brother to acknowledge him for everything that he is, and turn him back to a good leaf. Unfortunately, he got shot...
Reo figuring out the REAL Mabu...while the otters have their way with him.
Kazuki holding out his hopes for his duo Enta after he got shot last episode...only to realize that Keppi turned him into a kappa for his hope. And his lil young bro to give him the encouragement to find the strength to help Enta.

That's Ikuhara's signature trademark for you. A nonlinear story progression whilst telling the story in pieces so small that whether noticeable of not, it shows in irregularity but it makes sense somehow. Even at this late of the juncture, everything works wonders.

The endcard of Toi's desire for his brother...doesn't end well.

@SStrikerV3 a job well done to break the ongoing case of Ikuhara shows wide open.
Modified by KANLen09, Jun 7, 6:11 AM
 
Jun 7, 6:01 AM

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This show keeps getting darker and darker, was really not expecting that, but I definitively enjoy it
And then, God missed a step of his stairs
 
Jun 7, 7:15 AM
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Kimurah said:
bitchassdarius said:
tone is a really bullshit thing to complain about because being able to blur the line is requires a lot of skill and affects depth. shows that keep a "consistent tone" tend to be one-dimensional and uninteresting.


This is some of the most weeb bullshit response I've read in a very long time. Tone is a very important asset of a story in order to make it believeable to a large audience with a wide array of cultural knowledge, rather than impress the most gullible weebs that take everything as credible and granted just because "it's anime" and you have to either roll with it or just get out of it. Lets take off the gloves and agree that Ikuhara works are just cult works worshipped by the same sheepheerd of brainwashed followers.

"Consistent Tone tends to be one dimensional" you're confusing tone with depth. A work of fiction or based in real life can have multiple layers based in it's characters and how elaborate the story is. You mentioned it depends on the skill to blur the line, and that's exactly how badly it was crafted in that scene that goes from emotional to a complete 3 ring circus act in less than a second. It's all about time and place, and neither of the two were met in that scene with kazuki and Enta.

Take as an example the recently finished HBO mini-series Chernobyl. It's always grim and devastating, but it managed to fit in some visual dick jokes in episode 3 with the miners buttnaked digging a tunnel to access the underbelly of the reactor. If that kind of joke was presented in the most grim moments when Legasov & Scherbina are assesing the damages and how many men would be required to contain the current situation. But hey, don't take my word up, I'm sure that a series with a consistant tone like Chernobyl will go unoticed by a lot of people, and great pieces of writing with tonal whiplash like Sarazanmai will be remebered forever by that huge 50K number of user who are watching it and rating it here on MAL.

bitchassdarius said:

comparing an anime character to what a "real person would do" is some serious rookie critic shit. trying to guess how a real person reacts in a fictional situation is a fool's errand because 1) everyone reacts differently, there is no "correct way"; 2) oftentimes fictional situations cannot be replicated in real life, ergo it's impossible to guess how accurate a character's reaction is (this isn't really the case here, but it should be mentioned nonetheless). what matters most is how believable the character's reaction in dramatic context, which i would say it's pretty reasonable in this case. some people cope by transferring the loss on someone else and by attempting to help that person. that's just how it is.


"Trying to guess" is indeed a rookie mistake. But a good critic knows how real people react because he or she has lived long enough with different people and has the grasp of how "real" people react to life and death situations and has lived them on his/her own. "Everybody reacts different" is the most retarded weeb response to everything as a defense to bad writing depicting human nature. If everyone reacted in such a different way, writing good beliveable characters would be like a coin toss because every single person would have their own parameters on how to react. There are indeed variations from people to people and cultures, but they aren't that huge that a character that is about to lose her closest relative should remain this passive and caring to someone else who is not next of kin.

bitchassdarius said:

furthermore, how do you know she wasn't grieving off-camera? or a more pertinent way to phrase it, why would they waste screentime depicting some side character that doesn't actually matter grieving? should the grandma have her own scene too? you would just complain about the show being too bloated by focusing on shit that doesn't matter then.


Oh the irony. You're calling my criticism rookie level, but you're pulling out of your ass the lamest excuses to defend bad writing with hypotethic outcomes. If Ikuhara would have wanted to depict her sorrow, it would have been on camera rather than being vague. That's 101 of storytelling, show don't tell, and in this case it isn't even a tell or implicit, it's a blatant omision in order to give more time to other scenes. Should the grandmother have her own scene too? of course she should, but based on what I already pointed out how tunnel vision this story is being told by making the main characters the only ones that matter, why would Ikuhara bother making the story with more layers? See, this show is pretty one dimensional because none of the side characters matter, they live only to make the main characters shine, their chara design are a waste of good effort, might as well have been drawn like blank cardboard cutouts in the same way the blank cutouts fill up the streets.

bitchassdarius said:

also you completely misread toi's brother's final scenes, which makes sense since you think the "tone was all over the place" bullshit. he's not being depicted as a psychopath, more as someone that really struggles to "connect" so he does the complete opposite by burning his bridges in the most extreme way.


Psychopath:

noun
a person suffering from chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behavior. Informal: an unstable and aggressive person.

Psychopathy can be thought of as a more severe form of sociopathy with more symptoms. Therefore, all psychopaths are sociopaths but sociopaths are not necessarily psychopaths.

According to the Society for the Study of Psychopathy, psychopath traits include:

Lack of guilt/remorse
Lack of empathy
Lack of deep emotional attachments
Narcissism
Superficial charm
Dishonesty
Manipulativeness
Reckless risk-taking

Yeah, that sounds a lot like Toi's brother, and your depiction of him by "burning bridges in the most extreme way" is just an embelishment of the same traits of a psychopath with no remorse, manipulative, lack of empathy & reckless behaviour. The whole flashback sequence is just cheap emotional manipulation run by the book


bitchassdarius said:
the whole episode is supposed to put the viewer in toi's shoes of questioning whether or not his brother cares about him, and toi (and thus the viewer) finds out the answer by the end, which is unfortunately too late. pointing the gun towards his brother was a mislead to set up the post-credits scene which you clearly didn't comprehend. he was pointing it at the guy on the boat the whole time because he always was looking out for toi (toi is on the ground having been pushed to safety out of the way by his brother, an action that led him defenseless). the brother saying "you ruined it" refers to the fact that toi was in the way as a result of him confronting his brother. if he hadn't doubted his brother, he wouldn't have been in the way, the bigger picture being that toi was always in the way of his brother's complete freedom and disconnection because toi was the one thing he cared about (signaled by the picture in his pocket of everyone except toi crossed out).


The whole setup is a typical bait & switch, cut to scene and make an asspull explanation. But thing is you're completely ignoring key elements.

Chikai is pointing his gun in a lower angle in order to put it on Toi's head level (wich btw is standing and is changed to the aftercredits as being on the ground). It's completely impossible to land a shot on the mobster who is in a far place that's also quite elevated, he would have needed to raise his arm in an elevated angle in order to land a hit, wich he does after he's being shot and he has full vision and trayectory of the mobster wich he hadn't seen before. He wasn't "aiming" at the mobster the whole time as you falsely claim.

Sure, Chikai cares for Toi, that has never been doubted. But the way it's portrayed with "fuck everyone else" but my brother, is still manipulative from the writers perspectvie in order to make a psychopath a loveable character who sacrifices for the one he loves as his "redeeming" act. This is nothing new, in fact Happy Sugar Life did the exact same thing but at least Satou had more characterization in order to explain her psychosis.


lmao @ this response. really shows how misinformed you are.

look, i hate tarantino, but the one thing universally agreed on is that he knows how to make a pastiche (which is why i don't like him). i think django unchained was a shit movie for a lot of reasons, but one of them was not because "hurr durr the tone is all over the place." he's knows how to keep viewers invested in a film while consistently reminding them they are watching a film (i.e. breaking the fourth wall). this is the irony of you calling me a weeb for pointing this out. if you have actually watched good movies (i'm guessing you haven't, i mean you have watched more anime than i have going by MAL statistics which makes you even more of a weeb than i am lmao), you wouldn't be complaining about tone. it's like you've never watched a coen brothers movie, which is like entry-level imdb-tier film critic. if you haven't even reached that level, don't waste your time talking to me about anything else because i already know you're talking out of your ass. if you want people to take you seriously, stop relying on dumb generalizations about storytelling and anti-intellectual weasel words like "brainwashed" and "sheepheerd" (i'm guessing you meant to refer to herd mentality even though the closest word in spelling to "sheepheerd" is "shepherd" which doesn't even make sense contextually lmao @ your life).


tell me how sarazanmai is based in real life. tell me how kids turning into kappas is real, and how they should react, and how all such events that happened in the show thus far would actually play out in real life. this is why this line of thinking is incompetent and restrictive: it's literally impossible and it refuses to understand the story on its own terms. this is what separates good criticism from nostalgia critic/cinema sins bullshit amateur hour. if you can't point out the flaws of a work with respect to its own methods and devices, then you don't deserve to have your opinion taken seriously. you're trying to force sarazanmai into your own frame and justify your criticisms ad hoc, which is the laziest, most pseudo-intellectual nonsense typically perpetuated by weebs in an echo chamber. your criticisms don't stand on their own because they're completely subjective. if someone else claims they actually find the tone consistent, what then? you just agree to disagree because you had different experiences watching the show? why not actually work with the story and make more objective observations, such as outlining what you think is being attempted instead of completely misreading a scene and blaming the show for your own misgivings.

also, your reading comprehension is fucking abysmal.

for example, where did i say ikuhara "wanted to depict her sorrow?" i'm saying the complete opposite; i'm saying he didn't want to at all because it would be a waste of time to show some nobody character that doesn't fucking matter having an emotional reaction. showing the sister grieving advances the story in no way, so why would you even include it? the fact that you don't even realize this shows you've got a lot of learning to do. including scenes of minor characters grieving isn't adding layers, that's the most reductive and pigheaded conception of complexity i've ever heard. why the hell would adding scenes of characters, who would obviously be sad, being sad add "layers?" what the hell are you actually talking about? do you actually read what you write? you think adding obvious shit makes something complex????

you have no idea who these characters actually are besides their relation to the main characters, i.e. they're not important characters. if you think bloating the story with trivial shit and slogging the pacing is "adding layers," then it suffices to say you're an amateur lmao. i can just imagine the type of story you would write: a hundred pages of "characterization" for a million "characters" and nothing interesting. "b-b-b-but it's layered!!!" lol

another example: instead of correcting your obvious misreading of toi's brother's final scene, you googled the definition for psychopath as if that was actually relevant, but i guess this is more of a rhetorical blunder. this type of mistake is pretty telling of your entire thought process. let's do an outline!

bitchassdarius said:

also you completely misread toi's brother's final scenes, which makes sense since you think the "tone was all over the place" bullshit. he's not being depicted as a psychopath, more as someone that really struggles to "connect" so he does the complete opposite by burning his bridges in the most extreme way.


- Here, I am presenting what seems to be Sarazanmai's goal in episode 9. The spirit of my argument is simply that you misunderstood this, and the episode attempts to portray Chikai as a victim of his own mistrust in everyone (hence his inability to connect.)

- Instead of responding to the spirit of my argument, you reply only to the diction used. You begin with a definition of "psychopath," as if that were the pertinent matter at hand.

- Next, you proceed to hand-wave away a bunch of details I mentioned with stereotypically pseudo-intellectual buzzwords ("cheap emotional manipulation," "typical bait & switch," "asspull explanation.") None of these are inherently bad, nor are they specific; generally these are shortcuts taken when your argument is extremely weak, the logic being "I don't have to explain these because you should have read the same TVTropes articles that I did!" If you want someone to take you seriously, you should be able to elucidate your ideas.

- Finally, you analyze the scene right before the credits, completely ignoring the fact that I said that scene was a mislead. Do you know what a mislead is? The purpose is to make you think something that's actually false, i.e. the director is lying to you. Yes, directors are allowed to "lie" to their audience, and this is done responsibly in several ways. 1) If the purpose of the story is a metacommentary on narration, which would squarely put you into works of avant-garde and post-modernism; 2) If the director lies by omission, e.g. Fight Club and The Murder of Roger Ackroyd; 3) If the director immediately corrects the misinformation. The third method is executed here in Sarazanmai; this is why the credits are needed to separate the scene. If there was no dramatic pause, this would not have worked. Now that you know what a mislead is, everything you wrote here is worthless. Knowledge is power!

- The result is a bunch of irrelevant drivel bent on expounding your misconception instead of responding to what I actually wrote.

now that i've done a cute little outline for you, let's extrapolate this to your entire criticism of sarazanmai. like my argument, you refuse to engage with what sarazanmai is actually doing and instead elect to parade down the rabbit hole of your own misunderstandings, never acknowledging the fact that you have written a bunch of useless garbage.

by the way, here's another good lesson for you. "manipulative" is not a criticism, it's an observation. in fact, all art is manipulative, because all art attempts to make its viewers feel something, otherwise it's not good art. don't try to sneak "manipulative" in as a critique, because people will laugh at how uninformed you are. you've clearly never watched a puccini melodrama (that's opera since you probably don't know who puccini is). puccini is about as manipulative as you can get, but sure if you think that's a valid critique, a century of opera will laugh at your face for how dumb you sound. you ever read hamlet? ever read macbeth? romeo & juliet? nah, dude, shakespeare is too "manipulative" LMAO kid, you're out of your depth here. don't bother responding, i've already erased your legitimacy from existence.
Modified by bitchassdarius, Jun 7, 8:02 AM
 
Jun 7, 7:29 AM

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WinterEnlighten said:
I feel really REALLY REALLY bad how the scores are so low for such an awe-inspiring show :(


This always happens when the show is too complex for the average joe.
 
Jun 7, 7:33 AM
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so 2 people in there dead bed and 1 need to be save wonder who's wish will be come to save the person they love Kuji's big brother,Kazuki's best friend,Reo am some thing? the hype is going on
 
Jun 7, 8:51 AM

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Ventus_S said:


I think that's the whole point?
The author don't want the episode tone to be completely dark and edgy like some other edgy shows, they don't want to make it overdramatic for the whole episode too.



Did you actually talk to Ikuhara and his staff in order to reach verdict that they don't specifically want it to be dark and edgy? Lemme answer that for you. YOU OBVIOUSLY DIDN'T. At best you can guess that's what they want, but you can't be sure of it

Ventus_S said:

I think the tone is perfect, because then you can get the contradiction of light happy tone contrast to the darker theme . This is how Made in Abyss succeed too.
Before Riku broke his arm, the whole tone of exploration is kinda light/ adventurous, but in that same episode everything went to hell.


Except Made in Abyss didn't have the tonal whiplash in the same episode. The first episodes were kinda lighthearted with an omnious prescene of danger. After Riku breaks her arm you don't see Riku, Reggu or Nanachi turning into chibi mode for a left fielded joke. Even after Riku's arm is "fixed" the somber tone keeps it's prescence to the climax of the series.

Ventus_S said:

You have full right to not like this type of method, and have full right to drop it as you like, but your criticism may not be as objective as you thought you are.

Conclusion: you do you, like it or not.



Same goes for you, if you like bad writing keep watching and reply back with praises, it's your prerrogative. It's mine to share my gripes about it

Ventus_S said:

PS: The sister part complaint is ridiculous. So you put your OWN assumption and what YOU would do in that scenario and assume everyone should act like that?
Maybe the sister knew Enta care more about Kazuki than her? That's why knowing all this he wants Kazuki to be by his side at last moment? Maybe she can't bare to see Enta like that?
Have you consider all the possibility? Or you just assume your own action into it and think everyone should act the same way base on your own perception?


I don't need to put my own asumption because I've lived that kind of scenario. I had an elder sister who was shot in a robbery and she didn't even make it to the hospital, she died right there on the street. I've also rushed my elder mother to the hospital along with my brother and sisters more than a few times because of her heart condition. So I know from first hand the pain of losing someone and being on the verge of losing someone of my own family. Real people grief in different ways, either feel enraged, completely hopeless or burst in despair and tears. But they don't become these emotionless puppets like the grandma and the sister that can sit there so calmly and have the strength to comfort someone who has lived less time along their siblings who are in the umbral of death.

Ventus_S said:

Conclusion: glad you're not the story writer. Just drop it I guess?
I bet this series is 1/10 for you already so why bother continue?


Sorry chief, I have a rule of not following orders from anyone else but my supervisor or close people I trust.
You don't even know how I rate this seris, but it's the classy butthurt fanboy asumption that everyone rates a series with a 1 just because someone points out the bad writing passages of a story.
And no, I already stated that there are 2 episodes left, no point in dropping it now.
 
Jun 7, 9:47 AM

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Well, that was pretty depressing... In all the ways a really engrossing, character-driven series can be.
~ sXeblues - Reviews on Youtube ~
 
Jun 7, 10:21 AM

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SStrikerV3 said:


Imagine calling people "weebs" when you're literally watching anime, and the worst of all, calling them weebs over defending a series made by a director that absolutely DOES NOT follow any of the current industry's tropes and standards and that does not do what would otherwise be called "anime for weebs" by the same person who made this comment. Ikuhara haters are an absolute joke like always, and the actual brainwashed people when they call others that.


There are different levels to audiences and final users on all kind of media. Same very same way you don't call people who watch movies a cinephile or people that enjoy music a music connoisseur I don't consider myself a weeb because I don't take the bait a writer or a director throws at me and blindly follow one sided sheepherd anime fan rants. It's also laughable how you claim Ikuhara is the most unique not following trends or tropes from the industry yet Chikai's detah was the most run by the book kind of death. Make the character look cool by protecting someone, throw off some cheap one liners and present a flashback for closure of that character. I'm not an Ikuhara hater, but fanboys like you are the worst vermin and a good reason why people call weebs in a derogatory way.

SStrikerV3 said:

We also really see your thing in that bolded part: you actually don't like Ikuhara's methods of storytelling, you're just watching his shows to hate on them (probably having no idea of what actually defines him and why people actually like him just like that papsoshea guy who insisted that "all his anime are the same" as well), you absolutely miss the point severely on why he does everything he does, and also calls literally everyone "brainwashed" for actually understanding and liking it, when you'd have the exactly opposite opinion if you actually went somewhere like the In The Rose Garden forums and saw the countless discussions people do about his work, especially Utena (however, do all of them a favor and actually do NOT go there, because they don't need someone as conceited as you in their middle).


Another bold fanboy claim jumping to wild absurd asumptions. And to keep this paragraph short, I don't go into Ikuhara forums to discuss anything because everyone will have their own definition on what Ikuhara works try to portray and it's nothing new in storytelling. Being vague and letting the fans rip each other appart is something older even than Anno's works (there was a russian filmaker in the 1930s that added an actual bear in a political scene in his movie and the audience was ripping each other appart because everyone had their own view of what the director meant with the bear in the scene, finally the director stated that he put the bear in it because he thought it was cool, and nothing more)

SStrikerV3 said:

Not liking Ikuhara is fine, trying to paint your prejudiced opinion as objective is absolutely something I hate, and that's why I'm going to take time to point out what's wrong in each of your arguments.


By all means Internet Keyboard Warrior

Kimurah said:
Have you actually watched the episode? The tone and and its progression are actually consistent and natural, it's just that you're expecting the episode to be pure drama and wanting to force the director to take your intent for the anime as what he should follow and is trying to paint what you think to be better as objectively better when it isn't (there isn't even "objectively better" when we're talking about art anyway, unless you can prove through pure logic that A is better than B, it's all your taste and trying to paint it as anything else is cringeworthy).


Ah the typical "have you seen the episode" fanboy reply. Yes I watched the episode, otherwise I wouldn't have been discussing it here on this messageboard. And yo're already giving me the reason about it, because most of art stuff is SUBJECTIVE there' no right answer. Therefore my answer how jarring and tone whiplashing it is FOR ME is as valid as you thinking it's the most brilliant writer ever in anime history. the difference is that I'm not fanboying about it and shoving it as gospel. All I did was put out an example of what I believe is good writing and good use of tone in a piece of entertainment that has a wider acceptance than a niche "very animelike" episode like this one


SStrikerV3 said:

The thing about this episode specifically but which is true for a lot of Sarazanmai is that you have around four stories going at the same time. In this episode we have:

1) Kazuki's and Enta's drama.
2) Toi's and Chikai's drama.
3) Reo and Mabu's drama.
4) Sara and Keppi's stuff.

Ikuhara switches between all of those viewpoints at once in order to make the storytelling more dynamic. That's why you think it has constant shifts in tone: he's not telling one story, he's telling four stories at the same time (and that's actually a fucking achievement when you have 11 episodes with 20 minutes to develop everything, Yuri Kuma's main sin was not being as dynamic as this and this led many people to thinking it was tedious), and using the more lighthearted scenes as usual comedic relief. When you actually take the scenes together in their actual chronological progression to each other, instead of the order presented in the episode, however, the tone is kept consistent and natural. But then you're going to argue "the episode's scene progression is what matters!" Well, the episode's scene progression is ALSO consistent and natural. The only place where you have a drastic shift in tone with no reason to happen is before the opening even plays, which shows Enta being taken to the hospital and Kazuki standing in the dark, and then switches to Sara trying to move Keppi and him being broken by a truck (which seems to be a parody of isekai stuff), and it's hardly something to nitpick about since the episode didn't even really start yet.


FACTUALLY INCORRECT. What I called shift tone was the lousy joke of Enta coming back to life in the most comical way while Kazuki was opening his heart to the audience. I never complained about 4 stories running at the same time. but since you already put it on the table lets discuss it.

Sara and Keppi's miniadventure feels completely off the rails for pure comedic value, at least in episode 8 it felt right to ease up on the cliffhanger of Enta being shot by Reo. But it just feels like padding when it's the very first scene in episode 9 to see Keppi being run over and smashed into pieces, we obviously want to know what happens with Enta and this is also something very run by the books to add a buffer scene to stall the story progression (talk about Ikuhara being original) Sara & keppi's adventures from episodes 8 & 9 could have been completely taken out and being replaced by just a short scene depicting Keppi being missing and then adding these Sara & Keppi scenes as extras like 5 minute specials, IMHO.

SStrikerV3 said:

The actual progression of this part of the episode is "dark/dramatic -> neutral -> lighthearted -> lighthearted/romantic -> comedic -> neutral -> tense -> dark/dramatic". It takes about six minutes for all these scenes to happen, the most serious ones generally take more time than the more comedic ones, but none of them except maybe "Sara and Keppi's adventures" take less than 30 seconds. I can't see how this is going from emotional to three circus ring acts in less than one second, nor how this progression in unnatural. Saying the the tone is "all over the place" when there's two fucking comedic relief scenes in the entire episode and one happens before the opening even plays, the other one has a natural tone progression to it as I've demonstrated by actually listing the tone progression and when none interfere in all the other plot threads going on in the episode makes absolutely no sense and there's no way you can argue the opposite other than "I didn't like what the director was going for" which is perfectly okay but just your opinion like always.

Now that "Sara and Keppi's adventures" and the tone being all over the place stuff is refuted, the only only thing left that's supposedly valid about your reasoning is: Enta's sister reaction about her brother's situation, and the shift in tone right after Kazuki discovers Enta is not dead yet.


All of this feels very rushed because it just happens in one episode. I'm pretty sure a lot of people will agree that this could have taken 2 episodes to depict the three plotlines (Sara & Keppi is completely irrelevant). That extra time could have given characterization to Enta's sister on how she really feels and make her a real character by giving her aspirations and some time under the spotlight with internal monologues about Enta and how her life will be without him, but since she's just like every other side character a crutch for the main characters to move the story forward, she's being denied of actual weight and importance to the story.

And no, you didn't refute anything, you just bullshitted your way and made a large rant paragrahp to excuse a rushed story and characterization ommision.

SStrikerV3 said:

By the way, since we're talking about how real people react to this kind of situation (which I do have the experience to talk about, since I lost my grandma some years ago, a situation in which, ironically, me and my parents tried to act mature in front of my little brother to comfort him even if we were actually sad and, in my case specifically, I only actually cried when I was alone), think about this: what if she had lost someone important in the past (such as say, her grandpa, since grandma's husband doesn't seem to live with them it's easy to infer that he has probably died) and were already used to this kind of situation, and therefore this reaction wasn't as strong, even if it's still there, because she's also used to it? Since there's nothing to go on about what the character's past is (after all, she's a fucking secondary character and there's absolutely no reason to focus on her grieving storywise), you can't really judge her reaction in any way other than "I wanted it to be such even if it's not supposed to be such because my personal experience says that people don't act like this", which is ironic in two ways because: 1) her reaction is absolutely expected from a mature adult person such as a parent or big brother/sister who is front of a child, especially one who has already gone through this; and 2) because it shows that you're the one who's taking your personal experience or what you think to be "human nature" and making it universal in order to criticize a non-existent problem in the episode's writing, which is exactly what you YOURSELF criticized in your own comment, so you're the only one subject to the coin toss you criticized.


Again, you're just pulling out theoretical scenarios to patch up lack of characterization from the writers. If Ikuhara wanted to depict a mature onseesan, she would have had an episode to tell her story. Good stroywritting fleshes out support characters and gives them motivations to stick with the main cast and in the best scenarios they get enough detail in their stories and their ambitions are show to the audience that they could even get a spinoff. With Enta's sister we got an episode, wich was pretty shallow and depicted her like a girl in the need of a boyfriend (she didn't even had a good eye to pick a good boyfridn, he was a 2 timer) and when the boyfriend vanished a reset button was pressed. You're whole rant that she could have been a caring and mature onesan went out the window with episde 7.

Also it's ridiculous that you state that since she's a secondary character she doesn't need more time before this for characterization and her emotionless griefing is just fine. Toi's brother got a bit of time on the story in order to cement his character and be relevant to Toi's story. Same with Haruka and Kazuki. But Enta's sister just got the short end of the stick.

SStrikerV3 said:

And then you finish this paragraph by appealing to popularity. Talk about an actual clown act. Are you going to call yourself a certified critic next? If you do, I'm going to laugh a whole lot, because you're literally taking out the most common examples of how to not criticize a show out of whatever book you have to criticize this one.


Popularity gives a wider spectrum in terms of quality, even if it has contrarian vocal minorities against it. Niche shows are a lot more biased and has smaller to null pool of contrarian to give off contrast. Take it however you want.

SStrikerV3 said:

Only thing left now is Enta's revival, but I won't even take much time with that: the entire POINT of the scene is ending the ongoing drama up to that point since Enta isn't dead yet and Kazuki can still save him, so a drastic shift from dark to lighthearted actually makes sense: the audience has just discovered Enta is alive - which leads to a surprise - then Ikuhara holds that surpriseful tone for a bit with Kazuki being confused about why he has appeared as a kappa, before transitioning into a comedic scene that ends on a hopeful tone. If all of this ends tragically or in a bittersweet way, by the way (which wouldn't be really strange, since Ikuhara has only done one ending to this day in his own works that can be categorized as completely happy, and even in that ending the future is still uncertain), things are going to hit with double the impact, because he would have given false hope to the audience.


I don't have a gripe on Enta being revived. I have a gripe on how cheap and comically it is presented

SStrikerV3 said:

I've already explained how Ikuhara actually depicted her sorrow and you just weren't paying attention (also, criticizing Ikuhara for not doing "show, don't tell" is fucking hilarious when he's all about his visual storytelling, when he basically never does infodumps and when this scene is no exception to the rule), but this right here is absolutely hilarious, it's almost as bad as critics wanting Godzilla to focus on human drama.
How in the fucking Earth do you want a 11-episode show to have extraordinary focus on secondary characters, when there's no time to focus on secondary characters in this kind of show and especially when there's an ongoing drama with the main characters being set up for nine episodes now? You can't do that, that's losing precious screentime, no director would do that for a series of this duration. And no, focusing mainly on main characters does not make it one-dimensional or superficial, treating its themes superficially and making cardboard main characters is what does that, which Sarazanmai is absolutely far from doing. The focus on secondary characters here is the exact same level as other shows, even famous ones, of the same duration. See Madoka, for an example, there's like a handful of scenes where any secondary character has relevance to the plot, the only ones that are vaguely relevant are Kyousuke (which gets pretty much no focus outside of Sayaka's own drama itself, so it's still centred around a main character) and Madoka's mother (who also does not get any relevant focus on herself other than giving life advice to Madoka when she's troubled and trying to stop her daughter from putting herself in danger in order to save her friend, so it's also still centred around a main character's drama as well). You have absolutely no reason or time to focus on any secondary character's drama that isn't relevant to the main character's drama in anime with this duration, and Sarazanmai ACTUALLY does that with the secondary characters that are actually important, see how it dedicated an entire episode to Toi and Chikai's past. Now, do you know an anime where secondary characters actually have an entire arc dedicated to them and their personal drama? Revolutionary Girl Utena. Another Ikuhara show. Even though you insult Ikuhara so much, he's the one who has actually done that to extents that few directors do. The entire Black Rose arc is basically that, other than the two episodes focused on Mikage and the usual Nanami episodes. However, Utena has 39 episodes. Sarazanmai has 11. That's about 2/7 of Utena's duration, a little more than a 3 hour-movie duration. Of course it's going to have a focus in the fucking main characters and leave secondaries out of scene unless they're relevant to the main characters. There's absolutely no intention to portray secondary characters having problems, and that's the right way to direct anime like this, otherwise you aren't going to have enough time to wrap up the main plot itself instead.


You explained squat about Enta's sister and just hand waved it with "she's a side character she's not important but her emotionless grief is just AOK end of story". You're just shooting yourself on the foot with such explanation and passing it as a rule fo thumb just because you pulled it out of your ass.

And precisely because this title is just 11 episodes, it feels short and rushed, with characterization being cut off in order to move the story forward and reach the end date. It's something that should have been planned for more episodes from the beginning or make it a 2 part and hope that with part one being fully fleshed out, the audience would have been interested in watching a second part

SStrikerV3 said:

No, you absolutely do not know what a psychopath is, the worst part is that what you just posted refutes your own point. Psychopaths are characterized by callous and manipulative SELF-SERVING behaviors, and a LACK OF EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENTS. Psychopaths need to be absolutely selfish and not care about anyone else other than themselves. All people are there to be used by them for their own purposes for them, even if they seem to care for someone it's either an act because caring for said person is going to get them personal gain, or if they do actually care, they can simply stop caring about them when push comes to shove (like they have an emotional switch). Tell me how Chikai's actions are like that when he cares more about his brother than himself as demonstrated since episode 3 and by the very end of this episode. They aren't, and therefore he is not a psychopath.


He's completely emotionless towards his former members and murders Masa in cold blood for pretty much nothing. He tried to ditch Toi a couple of times (like when Toi gets the news about Enta and Chikai suggest for him to go back) to get rid of his only attachment. Psychopaths don't need to fill a complete checklist in order to be considered psychopaths. Even this article expands that psychopaths can also care

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201305/despite-popular-opinion-psychopaths-can-show-they-care

 
Jun 7, 10:29 AM

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Posts: 667
MaahHeim said:
I guess I'm now allowed to mark the SUFFERING on my bingo. Jesus fucking christ, my poor heart. Reo's poor heart. Kazu's poor heart. EVERYONE'S POOR HEART.

And was it Reo also a machine? He touched his heart and there was a ticking and then the machine-heart that he took from Mabu. Also the "cheating" scene was painful. JESUS CHRIST. This episode was... fffffffff UGH.


I've been thinking this for a while and I'm just gonna put it out there.

Since this is a show primarily about male characters you should absolutley count Reo/Mabu and/or Enta for the free space.
 
Jun 7, 10:45 AM

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bitchassdarius said:

tell me how sarazanmai is based in real life. tell me how kids turning into kappas is real, and how they should react, and how all such events that happened in the show thus far would actually play out in real life. this is why this line of thinking is incompetent and restrictive: it's literally impossible and it refuses to understand the story on its own terms. this is what separates good criticism from nostalgia critic/cinema sins bullshit amateur hour. if you can't point out the flaws of a work with respect to its own methods and devices, then you don't deserve to have your opinion taken seriously. you're trying to force sarazanmai into your own frame and justify your criticisms ad hoc, which is the laziest, most pseudo-intellectual nonsense typically perpetuated by weebs in an echo chamber. your criticisms don't stand on their own because they're completely subjective. if someone else claims they actually find the tone consistent, what then? you just agree to disagree because you had different experiences watching the show? why not actually work with the story and make more objective observations, such as outlining what you think is being attempted instead of completely misreading a scene and blaming the show for your own misgivings.


I never stated that this piece of fiction was based in real life, I made a comparisson with a real life incident that was rewritten and shown in a very hollywoodesque matter but still manages to send a very clear message to a wide variety of viewers rather than derail from human nature and easy to please niche Ikuhara fanboys just based off his name. Also I did point out what I believe are flaws and for you comparing me to nostalgia critics I really can't get a bigger praise if contemporanean criticsm is carried on by a name solely. And no, I'm not posting my thoughts expecting someone to agree with me, I just do it because I can.

bitchassdarius said:

for example, where did i say ikuhara "wanted to depict her sorrow?" i'm saying the complete opposite; i'm saying he didn't want to at all because it would be a waste of time to show some nobody character that doesn't fucking matter having an emotional reaction. showing the sister grieving advances the story in no way, so why would you even include it? the fact that you don't even realize this shows you've got a lot of learning to do. including scenes of minor characters grieving isn't adding layers, that's the most reductive and pigheaded conception of complexity i've ever heard. why the hell would adding scenes of characters, who would obviously be sad, being sad add "layers?" what the hell are you actually talking about? do you actually read what you write? you think adding obvious shit makes something complex????

you have no idea who these characters actually are besides their relation to the main characters, i.e. they're not important characters. if you think bloating the story with trivial shit and slogging the pacing is "adding layers," then it suffices to say you're an amateur lmao. i can just imagine the type of story you would write: a hundred pages of "characterization" for a million "characters" and nothing interesting. "b-b-b-but it's layered!!!" lol



So you're saying that it all it matters is to move the story forward? characterization from minor roles don't matter? wow, you must be a huge fan of 4komas an other short stories with vapid storylines. Forgive me for being a Nostalgia Critic and wanting some time off to fleshen out side characters and have a more complete piece of fiction. Carry on.

bitchassdarius said:

by the way, here's another good lesson for you. "manipulative" is not a criticism, it's an observation. in fact, all art is manipulative, because all art attempts to make its viewers feel something, otherwise it's not good art. don't try to sneak "manipulative" in as a critique, because people will laugh at how uninformed you are. you've clearly never watched a puccini melodrama (that's opera since you probably don't know who puccini is). puccini is about as manipulative as you can get, but sure if you think that's a valid critique, a century of opera will laugh at your face for how dumb you sound. you ever read hamlet? ever read macbeth? romeo & juliet? nah, dude, shakespeare is too "manipulative" LMAO kid, you're out of your depth here. don't bother responding, i've already erased your legitimacy from existence.


All pieces of entertainment are manipulative it's true, but the good ones can mask their threads and the viewer feels really attached to the characters in a natural way. Their suspension of disbelif isn't challenged. Your own statement that YOU particularly find some authors easier to tell off their manipulation skills just agrees with my statement that I found this episode manipulative. So I really don't see why you're laughing off if you agree that blatant manipulation is real.
 
Jun 7, 12:13 PM
Hitagi's Pet

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Posts: 8414
Kenchiin said:
In the after-credits scene, when the piano version of "Cavalleria Rusticana: Intermezzo" kicks in... flawless.


So incredibly and absolutely this
"Perhaps there is a universal, absolute truth. Perhaps it justifies every question. But that's beyond the reach of these small hands." Mamoru Oshii

There is a cult of ignorance (...) nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” Isaac Asimov

 
Jun 7, 12:56 PM
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Kimurah said:
bitchassdarius said:

tell me how sarazanmai is based in real life. tell me how kids turning into kappas is real, and how they should react, and how all such events that happened in the show thus far would actually play out in real life. this is why this line of thinking is incompetent and restrictive: it's literally impossible and it refuses to understand the story on its own terms. this is what separates good criticism from nostalgia critic/cinema sins bullshit amateur hour. if you can't point out the flaws of a work with respect to its own methods and devices, then you don't deserve to have your opinion taken seriously. you're trying to force sarazanmai into your own frame and justify your criticisms ad hoc, which is the laziest, most pseudo-intellectual nonsense typically perpetuated by weebs in an echo chamber. your criticisms don't stand on their own because they're completely subjective. if someone else claims they actually find the tone consistent, what then? you just agree to disagree because you had different experiences watching the show? why not actually work with the story and make more objective observations, such as outlining what you think is being attempted instead of completely misreading a scene and blaming the show for your own misgivings.


I never stated that this piece of fiction was based in real life, I made a comparisson with a real life incident that was rewritten and shown in a very hollywoodesque matter but still manages to send a very clear message to a wide variety of viewers rather than derail from human nature and easy to please niche Ikuhara fanboys just based off his name. Also I did point out what I believe are flaws and for you comparing me to nostalgia critics I really can't get a bigger praise if contemporanean criticsm is carried on by a name solely. And no, I'm not posting my thoughts expecting someone to agree with me, I just do it because I can.

bitchassdarius said:

for example, where did i say ikuhara "wanted to depict her sorrow?" i'm saying the complete opposite; i'm saying he didn't want to at all because it would be a waste of time to show some nobody character that doesn't fucking matter having an emotional reaction. showing the sister grieving advances the story in no way, so why would you even include it? the fact that you don't even realize this shows you've got a lot of learning to do. including scenes of minor characters grieving isn't adding layers, that's the most reductive and pigheaded conception of complexity i've ever heard. why the hell would adding scenes of characters, who would obviously be sad, being sad add "layers?" what the hell are you actually talking about? do you actually read what you write? you think adding obvious shit makes something complex????

you have no idea who these characters actually are besides their relation to the main characters, i.e. they're not important characters. if you think bloating the story with trivial shit and slogging the pacing is "adding layers," then it suffices to say you're an amateur lmao. i can just imagine the type of story you would write: a hundred pages of "characterization" for a million "characters" and nothing interesting. "b-b-b-but it's layered!!!" lol



So you're saying that it all it matters is to move the story forward? characterization from minor roles don't matter? wow, you must be a huge fan of 4komas an other short stories with vapid storylines. Forgive me for being a Nostalgia Critic and wanting some time off to fleshen out side characters and have a more complete piece of fiction. Carry on.

bitchassdarius said:

by the way, here's another good lesson for you. "manipulative" is not a criticism, it's an observation. in fact, all art is manipulative, because all art attempts to make its viewers feel something, otherwise it's not good art. don't try to sneak "manipulative" in as a critique, because people will laugh at how uninformed you are. you've clearly never watched a puccini melodrama (that's opera since you probably don't know who puccini is). puccini is about as manipulative as you can get, but sure if you think that's a valid critique, a century of opera will laugh at your face for how dumb you sound. you ever read hamlet? ever read macbeth? romeo & juliet? nah, dude, shakespeare is too "manipulative" LMAO kid, you're out of your depth here. don't bother responding, i've already erased your legitimacy from existence.


All pieces of entertainment are manipulative it's true, but the good ones can mask their threads and the viewer feels really attached to the characters in a natural way. Their suspension of disbelif isn't challenged. Your own statement that YOU particularly find some authors easier to tell off their manipulation skills just agrees with my statement that I found this episode manipulative. So I really don't see why you're laughing off if you agree that blatant manipulation is real.

It's very funny you think Nostalgia Critic is good. I think this is a good example that you don't really know what you're talking about. Since you're not aware, Nostalgia Critic is a laughingstock representative of all armchair wannabe critics. Not responding to the other garbage you've spewed as a result of your inability to read, e.g. "So you're saying that it all it matters is to move the story forward?" (Show me where I said that. Oh that's right, you can't because I didn't. Spend less time reading TVTropes and more time working on your horrendous reading skills. "Fleshen out" isn't a phrase, Christ Almighty.)

Fuck it, here's a good contradiction you wrote lmao

Kimurah said:
All pieces of entertainment are manipulative it's true, but the good ones can mask their threads and the viewer feels really attached to the characters in a natural way.

So about these "good ones... the viewer feels really attached to the characters in a natural way." Yet you admit "All piece of entertainment are manipulative." So which is it? Is your investment in such characters manufactured or natural? You can't even write two sentences without contradicting yourself. You're a joke lmao

And let me preempt your obvious retort along the lines of "the two aren't mutually exclusive." Think, if you are so able to, about the logical conclusion here. You're suggesting that these "good ones" are manipulating viewers to feel "natural" connections, yet you are aware that these "good ones" are manipulating you, so how does that work? How can you feel a "natural" connection with a fictional character when you know the creator is manipulating you to empathize with him? In this hypothetical world, for this to make sense you either have to turn your brain off or you're just brick stupid. I'll let you decide which foot you shoot yourself in.

It's very clear you have no actual theory and you're shooting from the hip. None of your (half-baked) "criticisms" seem to be tied to any theory, just whatever you feel art should be. Sure feelings are important, but there's real discipline behind art, which is a concept that appears incomprehensible to you. That makes you a Nostalgia Critic, and if you want to take pride in that, you might as well slap on a fedora and change your name to "Mr. Euphoric."
Modified by bitchassdarius, Jun 7, 1:24 PM
 
Jun 7, 4:23 PM

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Kimurah said:


Again, you're just pulling out theoretical scenarios to patch up lack of characterization from the writers. If Ikuhara wanted to depict a mature onseesan, she would have had an episode to tell her story. Good stroywritting fleshes out support characters and gives them motivations to stick with the main cast and in the best scenarios they get enough detail in their stories and their ambitions are show to the audience that they could even get a spinoff. With Enta's sister we got an episode, wich was pretty shallow and depicted her like a girl in the need of a boyfriend (she didn't even had a good eye to pick a good boyfridn, he was a 2 timer) and when the boyfriend vanished a reset button was pressed. You're whole rant that she could have been a caring and mature onesan went out the window with episde 7.

Also it's ridiculous that you state that since she's a secondary character she doesn't need more time before this for characterization and her emotionless griefing is just fine. Toi's brother got a bit of time on the story in order to cement his character and be relevant to Toi's story. Same with Haruka and Kazuki. But Enta's sister just got the short end of the stick.


Because Enta's sister was never the subject that Enta wanted to connect to while Haruka and Chikai were both shown in the OP to be one for Kazuki and Toi respectively. Enta's problem was always Kazuki being too dense to realize that, thus Otone's not the direct cause to this.

Making more of a fuss in the presence of a grieving kid with herself being a teacher does not make anything better.
 
Jun 7, 6:37 PM

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That photo at the end... What an incredible way to summarize Chiaki's attitude both towards his little brother and for everything else in his life. It's wonderful, and I'm really happy the show made him a more complex character than your typical "gangster with a heart of gold" (even though I love those simpler characters as well, almost to a fault. looking at you, "way of the house husband").
 
Jun 7, 8:52 PM

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toi had it coming but.. i still feel a little bad for him
 
Jun 7, 9:11 PM

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Btw after deeper analysis, the real reason Chikai kill that bold dude is because he's a danger to his brother.

He talks too much, knows too much (like Toi did the shooting), so one day he may accidentally spew out the truth about Toi's crime that would put Toi r into his brother's position.
Toi might also be chased by other gangster as target if they know he's the real killer if that bold dude accidentally spill out the info. During the chat the bold dude keeps spitting out "Toi is the killer" despite Chikai told him to shut up so many times. I guess he just cannot trust that bold guy at the end because his mouth is too big.

So yeah, I guess Chikai really prioritize his brother over anything else, even if it means killing a good heart dude.
 
Jun 7, 11:27 PM
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Ventus_S said:
Can Toi's bro be count as anti heroes? (He's really evil but he still would do anything for his bro)
Eeeh, I wouldn't call him an anti-hero I would call him at the VERY MAXIMUM an antagonist. He's not an antagonist in the conventional way where he actively opposes the protagonists, he just indirectly fucks up Toi's future plans. He's an obstacle Toi must move past, even if he doesn't want to. He's an adversary. An antagonist.

In any matter I thought his death was a little less than impactful to the viewer. Sure his death was meaningful and just made sense for the narrative to carry on. However, I as a viewer didn't care about his death. The only reason we liked Toi's brother was because he protected Toi, a character we care about for other reasons, but the means he carried it out was disgusting, even to the point where he ripped on one of the most developed and empathetic characters Enta while he's in a hospital bed. It feels like Ikuhara wants me to hate him, but they dramatize his death like it's a sad tear jerking moment. Then they proceed to play a slideshow of Toi having fun with his brother, something I needed to see BEFORE his death not after, I need to see more good than the bad. It's why it killed the episode for me and dropped it to a 3 from a 5/5. I enjoy the show, but this episode doesn't do it for me.
 
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