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TBH, we should have more of and "Anime counter-culture"

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May 24, 3:38 AM

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I'm beginning to feel like it is one of those college freshman's complains about that the English department is all about James Joyce and T. S. Elliot and paying no attention to their favourite YA novels like Hunger Game, or Art school doesn't teach you how to draw sexy anime girls but instead they try to convince you to learn from Picasso and Henri Matisse.
 
May 24, 3:53 AM

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Really the only press these days that publishes anything related to anime is the University of Minnesota. The Anime Machine/Ecology, Beautiful Fighting Girl, and Database Animals were all published there. Makes sense since Minnesota's thing is to just publish weird social/cultural theory and this slots in nicely, but at the end of the day, it really is a small subset of the university system that does this, and calling it small is almost an overstatement.
Modified by Yudina, May 24, 4:15 AM
 
May 24, 4:11 AM

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thewiru said:
operationvalkyri said:

I've been plodding through this thread in hopes of getting an answer to this question but no luck. Can anyone enlighten us, please?


Looking 'american'.
You know the kind of thing that used to go to Toonami? Yeah, that thing.


I think I get what you mean by American-looking, and correct me if I'm getting it wrong, but you refer to shows whose character designs are ambiguous enough to pass for western shows, like Cowboy Bebop? There are lots of Toonami shows with a distinctively Japanese art style (e.g. Rurouni Kenshin) so I had look up some American shows to see what you meant. However, is it really fair to assume that the 'American-looking' shows are being recommended for being American-looking or might they be being recommended for their quality? (I man I'd recommend Bebop to anyone no matter what it looked like.)
 
May 24, 1:26 PM

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@operationvalkyri

My theory is that, because of the disproportional number of such show that there are, and the number of them that get recommended, i would say yes, even if non-directly, it would be because they are "american-looking".

@Yudina
@CHC
I'm not even asking for universities to publish anime related stuff or "anything that i like" stuff, where did you get that?
Also, i'm not even from the US


There is a word for it. It's called subculture. I don't think contemporary society is stopping you from participating in any form of subcultural identity at all. If anything, all the echo chambers of the age of social media is actually encouraging you to have a strong subcultural identity. But then of course, being subcultural and niche by definition means you're not striving for wider mainstream influence or anything kind of high cultural status.


So far i'm agreeing with you.

So I don't understand why you're so obsessed with academic recognition. If you do want anime subculture to take a revolutionary role in changing the climate of the society, then you would need a strong reason to justify why you think people should care about your subculture.


Quite simple: I'm not.
The purpose of this thread was not to be "we need recognition from outside", but "we need recognition from inside, from ourselves, NOT from outside".

In your case, you seems to be dissatisfied by the market (Hollywood) on one hand, critical discourse on the other, but then you are also not satisfied with staying in the confine of a subculture, so what exactly do you want?


I identify myself as a libertarian-conservative, so i presume you know my instances on the ideologies you've mentioned.
I never said i'm not satified in being a subculture, the whole point of this thread is "We can't depend on whatever it is on the outside, so we as a community should find a way to be self-sufficient".

it is the lack of stylistic variety in the trope-heavy, otaku-targetting anime that is conservative and ossified.


Which is, perhaps, the reason i didn't defend it on this thread? If something, the only anime i've mentioned and defended here were the ones i recognize as "different looking, bt still anime".

There isn't even a sizable anime academic community to begin with.


Maybe because i was always referring to people in the anime community, not on universities.

Just give us the names of the specific scholar you disagree with, not some random posts on reddit or 4chan.


That's the problem with us: I AM talking about people on the internet, because i believe that knowledge IS and SHOULD BE decentralized.
There is no reason for me to advocate for changes in universities because i don't believe matters like these should be solved by the academy to begin with. I don't think the anime community as a whole is influenced by it by any relevant enough margin.

I honestly couldn't care less for what the academy does or doesn't, the "front" in which this thread fights isn't this one.
I don't know in english, but in my main language "academicism" refers to a way of thinking.
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May 24, 1:32 PM

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CHC said:
I'm beginning to feel like it is one of those college freshman's complains about that the English department is all about James Joyce and T. S. Elliot and paying no attention to their favourite YA novels like Hunger Game, or Art school doesn't teach you how to draw sexy anime girls but instead they try to convince you to learn from Picasso and Henri Matisse.
There's a video somewhere on youtube that says that the anime style is "banned" in some art classes, particularly serious ones, and it's not because it's some disrespect for self-expression but it's because the point of the class is to teach a skill and that isn't the skill it's trying to teach (but rather is often just a cop-out).
 
May 24, 2:57 PM

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(A lot of this thread is based on the videos "Elitists: Your Credibility Lies At the Vanguard" and "Anime As Counter-Culture" by Digibro, so i would recommend watching them, they're good videos)


What Pullman said about not heralding the views of a shitty youtuber and start more thinking by yourself.
What counter culture? Do you even know what counter culture encompasses? The animation medium champions no definite unified vision, going counter current against a socio-cultural paradigm. It is purely entertainment, with nothing ideological pertaining to it unlike, for instance, the Hippie movement during the 60s.

Elitists? I only think there are people who think ignorance is bliss, so they escape any form of discussion or self questioning for the sake of some mindless enjoyment.
By certain regard, people may tell that I fit the definition of the memeish word. However, the thing is, I am more than disposed to share my vision to anyone receptive. I crave discussion, mostly when it helps me to improve on my knowledge. To exist, an elitist maintains the divide between the seasoned and the neophyte and casual watchers out of self importance.


I don't think that we as a community make a great advertisement of what we enjoy. Recently i was in a thread on /a/ that had one of those "Essential Anime" charts. As most of these charts made by westerners are simply circlejerking "anime that doens't look like anime" and, more specifically, "anime that looks" western and that was problem the 20th chart of that kind i had seen, i left a a comment of displeasement.


I do my best to advertise what I think is great, but if people don't wanna give a fuck, they will not. We can only plant the seed. That said apart, nobody need your brand of weeabctivism.

What particular far-eastern art vision are you talking about? You mean, weeabshit about cute girls doing cute things and fetish shows? As much as I abhor these types of shows myself, I think they must have their niche place in the medium. Indeed, I am in favor of a more balanced demand where everyone could be happy, including these "westerners" you talk about -whatever the fuck this term stands for-
Your views sound as if you want to indoctrinate them.


My view of it is that instead of being an Aristotelic Aristocracy, moving the community to a better place, elitists on the anime community, quoting myself, "Just prefer to advertise stuff that looks like normie stuff so their academic friends in cinema, literature or etc might take them seriously" instead of embrancing a counter-cultural identity.


This takes the cake as the most pretentious piece of reading I have ever read today. What even has Aristotle to do with it all? Digibro sure bled unto you with his pseudo intellectual hogwash.

I notice this here a lot, that the community is filled with an underdog mentality for simply liking anime, as in "Yeah, i recognize it is a lower form of art and that the simple thought of talking without shame about it is shameful".


Sequential art is sequential art. Nothing will ever make it less noble. The problem arises more from the dubious messages conveyed by a plethora of controversial titles, which make the public opinion frown upon your watching choices. What are you advocating for, OP? Unabashed waifuisation? Because cute/moe/titillation is what sells most, nowadays. Makes for an overwhelming proportion of seasonal composition.

I'm not asking for anyone to start praising bad or mediocre seasonals, but rather that the community would start celebrating some things that are unique to the medium instead of using "how western and non-anime it is" as a quality measurement.


Celebrating how? We parade in the streets with cosplayers to tell normies to watch Rise of the Shield Hero? Lmao
I can hardly talk for others, but I pretty much prides in my watching choices. And mostly, I don't try to pass off my guilty pleasures or shlock as enlightening masterpieces
Modified by sorcery, May 24, 3:02 PM
 
May 24, 3:30 PM

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@sorcery

What Pullman said about not heralding the views of a shitty youtuber and start more thinking by yourself.


I agree with someone.
Therefore i'm somehow not thinking by myself.
Nice logic.

What counter culture? Do you even know what counter culture encompasses?


You care too much about words.
The original title was "anime supremacism", i just changed it later because people told me "counter-culture" would be a better word.
Care more about the ideas i'm talking about than the words i'm using.

This takes the cake as the most pretentious piece of reading I have ever read today. What even has Aristotle to do with it all? Digibro sure bled unto you with his pseudo intellectual hogwash.


He doesn't even quote Aristotle.
This has to do with the Aristotelic definition of an aristocracy: A government of "the best", who would lead society to a better place.
A lot of authors had similar concepts later, my post, for instance, leans more towards an Ortega y Gasster line of thinking that, if aristocracies are natural, we should look to make the most out of them.

What i meant to say in what you quoted was that elitists, ideally, should be one of the moving forces to improve the community (As it is said in the video), but what i was perceiving was that most of them prefered a "lapdog" position in what they perceived as "superior", than a "elite" position in this community.

What are you advocating for, OP? Unabashed waifuisation? Because cute/moe/titillation is what sells most, nowadays. Makes for an overwhelming proportion of seasonal composition.


Good that you mentioned moe, a thing that was shunned by the western community years ago, but because of the efforts of part of the community, now it is, luckily, seen with good eyes.

So yes, i am.

Celebrating how?


It was not meant to be something literal.
I was just saying that we should just act like we are any subculture, not a lesser subculture.

guilty pleasures


The simple fact that you believe in the concept of "guilty pleasure" already means you're wrong and that you fall under the kind of people i'm criticizing with the line of thought i'm criticizing.
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May 24, 3:55 PM

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I agree with someone.
Therefore i'm somehow not thinking by myself.
Nice logic.


I simply spared myself to write what couldn't have been worded better. It's a whole different level than your senseless doctrine made around the ramblings of a pretentious anituber, which by the way, would be better inspired to tits sucks the bottle and masturbate to loli porn less.

Anime supremacism, LMAO. Who do you think you are, the Malcom X of anime?


He doesn't even quote Aristotle.
This has to do with the Aristotelic definition of an aristocracy: A government of "the best", who would lead society to a better place.


Which is still as much pretentious as an inappropriate use of a concept as you seem to think that watching Chinese Cartoons is some sort of political activist stance one takes within the society. Very funny.

The simple fact that you believe in the concept of "guilty pleasure" already means you're wrong and that you fall under the kind of people i'm criticizing with the line of thought i'm criticizing.


Absolutely not, as I am completely aware about the trash tier quality of what I watch. Beside, I watch garbage mostly retroactively, which means that I am not even the most casual seasonal supporter. Me being part of the Garbage Connoisseur Club absolutely holds no influence in anime production.

Besides, I wouldn't ever say shit like "Mayoiga is an intentionally unintentional masterpiece of a comedy", unlike what many idiots claimed when this anime was airing.
Good try, though. But you failed to win a set, here.


So yes, i am.


So, you completely take upon yourself that anime should be made for creepos who obsess over more or less underage girls, in all the aspects of this medium.
I certainly wouldn't join your party if I were a "normie", Malcom X.
Modified by sorcery, May 24, 4:11 PM
 
May 24, 10:55 PM

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@sorcery

Anime supremacism, LMAO. Who do you think you are, the Malcom X of anime


Again, too fixed on the words, while ignoring the messages.
Convince me that i shouldn't treat you like a dumb iguana after the last post you've made acting like a total asshat towards me.
Then, perhaps, i might see you as a person.

GlennMagusHarvey said:
CHC said:
I'm beginning to feel like it is one of those college freshman's complains about that the English department is all about James Joyce and T. S. Elliot and paying no attention to their favourite YA novels like Hunger Game, or Art school doesn't teach you how to draw sexy anime girls but instead they try to convince you to learn from Picasso and Henri Matisse.
There's a video somewhere on youtube that says that the anime style is "banned" in some art classes, particularly serious ones, and it's not because it's some disrespect for self-expression but it's because the point of the class is to teach a skill and that isn't the skill it's trying to teach (but rather is often just a cop-out).


I remember that one, it's a nice video and one that i agree very much with.
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May 25, 1:46 AM

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thewiru said:
@operationvalkyri

My theory is that, because of the disproportional number of such show that there are, and the number of them that get recommended, i would say yes, even if non-directly, it would be because they are "american-looking".

@Yudina
@CHC
I'm not even asking for universities to publish anime related stuff or "anything that i like" stuff, where did you get that?
Also, i'm not even from the US


There is a word for it. It's called subculture. I don't think contemporary society is stopping you from participating in any form of subcultural identity at all. If anything, all the echo chambers of the age of social media is actually encouraging you to have a strong subcultural identity. But then of course, being subcultural and niche by definition means you're not striving for wider mainstream influence or anything kind of high cultural status.


So far i'm agreeing with you.

So I don't understand why you're so obsessed with academic recognition. If you do want anime subculture to take a revolutionary role in changing the climate of the society, then you would need a strong reason to justify why you think people should care about your subculture.


Quite simple: I'm not.
The purpose of this thread was not to be "we need recognition from outside", but "we need recognition from inside, from ourselves, NOT from outside".

In your case, you seems to be dissatisfied by the market (Hollywood) on one hand, critical discourse on the other, but then you are also not satisfied with staying in the confine of a subculture, so what exactly do you want?


I identify myself as a libertarian-conservative, so i presume you know my instances on the ideologies you've mentioned.
I never said i'm not satified in being a subculture, the whole point of this thread is "We can't depend on whatever it is on the outside, so we as a community should find a way to be self-sufficient".

it is the lack of stylistic variety in the trope-heavy, otaku-targetting anime that is conservative and ossified.


Which is, perhaps, the reason i didn't defend it on this thread? If something, the only anime i've mentioned and defended here were the ones i recognize as "different looking, bt still anime".

There isn't even a sizable anime academic community to begin with.


Maybe because i was always referring to people in the anime community, not on universities.

Just give us the names of the specific scholar you disagree with, not some random posts on reddit or 4chan.


That's the problem with us: I AM talking about people on the internet, because i believe that knowledge IS and SHOULD BE decentralized.
There is no reason for me to advocate for changes in universities because i don't believe matters like these should be solved by the academy to begin with. I don't think the anime community as a whole is influenced by it by any relevant enough margin.

I honestly couldn't care less for what the academy does or doesn't, the "front" in which this thread fights isn't this one.
I don't know in english, but in my main language "academicism" refers to a way of thinking.

So who are the people you have problems with? Random fans on the internet who has what seems to you an "academic" or "Hollywood" taste?

What does it even mean to decentralise anime knowledge? What is anime knowledge? What is the institution that you think anime knowledge is currently being centralised in? If you're just referring to the few people who write anime reviews and make youtube videos etc., then I beg you to explain how could those random guys is capable to "centralise" anime knowledge (whatever it is).

I mean, there is virtually no institutional barrier to stop you from starting your own blog or your own channel.

The only way I can make sense of your complain is that you seem to have inferiority complex to those people who have a different taste than yours, but you can't challenge them on their own ground because they know more about anime than you, you haven't seen the shows they praise so you can't provide argument as to why their taste sucks, so instead you accuse them for putting up the face of an authority, when they're just random people on the internet and have no position in any powerful institution.
 
May 25, 2:12 AM

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I mean, I gave 5/10 to LotGH and Monster as opposed to 8/10 to Kill la Kill. But if I want to make the case that LotGH or Monster are overrated, I will give my arguments directly criticising the content of the shows. It means nothing just to accuse people who like those show for having an "academic" or "Hollywood" taste when you never define what you mean by those terms. It doesn't help just to post a few example of random "essential lists" especially when you clearly haven't even seen half of the shows mentioned by those lists. (Other people have already pointed out - what does it mean to say Astro Boy, Space Battleship Yamato, Gundam, Galaxy Express 999, Akira, Ghibli classics, NGE, Utena, Perfect Blue, Shin-chan are "Western", "academic", "Hollywood", or "do not look like anime"? Have you seen them?)

Confused language is a result of a confused thought.
 
May 25, 4:07 AM

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sorcery said:
So, you completely take upon yourself that anime should be made for creepos who obsess over more or less underage girls, in all the aspects of this medium.
I certainly wouldn't join your party if I were a "normie", Malcom X.

Please go back to the 00s where you belong.

Anyway and on topic, I said it before and other people have articulated it better @thewiru but your fight is super unfocused. You are not explaining well exactly what kind of paradigm you are fighting against and why is it worth to fight it. Why should I care that Westerners appreciate Cowboy Bebop or Ghibli more than K-On! or Madoka Magica. Why is it a problem, and if it is, what is an appropriate solution. There's a limit to how agreeable can a vague idea be. I'd like anime to be given more of a chance in certain aspects, for instance I cherish iyashikei a damn lot and it's a kind of fiction I'd love to see more people around me getting into, but I understand there's a huge cultural divide in the very concept of the subgenre. So what should I do? How do I promote Flying witch or Konohana Kitan to an audience that is clearly not used to their narrative approaches? Is it even something I should worry about? And that last question is key, and you haven't answered it properly.

On the other hand, on the term "counter-culture". While "supremacism" was an absolutely terrible word to use (and I called you out and I'm glad you changed it) in this context, I'm not sure how "counter-culture" applies here. Anime is not a counter-culture of the West. It's a culture and counter-culture of Japan, which is the environment it relates to. And there's a lot to say about how manga and anime challenge paradigms in their own cultural environment (Tezuka's Western influences, Go Nagai's sex and ultraviolence focused stories at the time, magical girl and lolita fashion...), which people more knowledgeable than me could further expand. But what anime can never be is a counter-culture of a foreign culture. It doesn't make sense to observe it like that. In case you are referring to the fans, I'm not... really sure how liking and promoting certain shows outside of the perceived comfort zone can be considered counter-cultural. It's even a bit pretentious to say that, specially in a world where people are not that against them, they are just not into them.

As for how "Western appeal" shows can be described... I think looking for a single, all-encompassing definition is a failure. There is not such a clear divide. However, and also as a response to @CHC, you can trace this "Western appeal" to certain moments and circumstances of the anime fandom. For instance there's a bigger fandom of Sailor Moon than any other MG show in the West because it was a very popular show at the time on TV. A lot of the classics mainstream titles can be equally traced to circumstantial popularity. Or take into account age. If your typical critic or academic is, say, a 40-60-year old, it makes far more sense that their talk on the medium and culture of anime is confined to what was big during their youth. To be able to permeate the cultural background and become essential in these circles, you need time.

On the other hand, of course there is stuff with clearer and less circumstantial Western appeal. Think of Watanabe's Cowboy Bebop and currently airing Carole & Tuesday and compare them to [insert show about Japanese mythology]. It's evident that one side is more accessible through pop culture references and environment than the other to a Western audience, and there's a reason why Carole & Tuesday is on Netflix and Sarazanmai isn't while both come from respected and revered directors. But that only explains a portion of the cases and is only useful to trace and explain why certain platforms choose to highlight some shows instead of others. For instance, there is really no discernible reason why Spirited away has such a Western appeal when it's a very Japanese film about Japanese mythology and spirituality. It just happened like that.
Modified by jal90, May 25, 4:19 AM
 
May 25, 4:35 AM

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thewiru said:
@GlennMagusHarvey

A lot of people in this thread understood what i'm talking about, so you don't need to believe in me, you can believe in them.

Also, a quick google search:
https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0062/93/1426872074934.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CDiZB2J.jpg

Such "bias" is but my theory that try to explain what i have perceived: The overpraising of anything that looks western or non-anime in opposition to anime that looks like anime.

If you have another theory that explains such phenomenon in such dept, feel free to tell me.
I see two different motivations in those lists, but certainly not an underdog mentality towards western media of any sort. With a minimally informed view you could tell most are indistinguishably Japanese, if you're used to other art styles from previous decades or not is a different story, but they're as much anime-like. Also I'd even argue it's almost "counter-culture" to go back and explore those earlier works of the industry from the perspective of what most anime fans focus their attention on, which are basically seasonals and whatever is being simulcasted in their streaming platform of choice.

Some (mostly new?) people might see it like that, after all there's an annoying self-deprecating attitude in many anime fans, but at the same time most of that people don't go out of their way to watch anime from those lists. The huge majority barely have a list of 20-50 completed with some of the most popular shows from recent years and already start complaining about not having new interesting anime to watch for instance. Many people being too vocal in their own ignorance I'd say. Which is why I don't think it's fair to generalize in the direction you're doing so with this thread when there's also a big trend in here of people calling out western-looking elements in anime and discrediting them right away.

Also several creators have expressed their concern about anime's isolation when it comes to inspiration and criticised the fact it's constantly being based in previous anime. Most notoriously Miyazaki did some years ago, but you can even go as back as mid 80s when Tezuka himself called out the lack of experimentation in Japanese animation when compared to European one for instance.
Modified by Unowen, May 25, 4:51 AM
 
May 25, 4:56 AM

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Unowen said:
Also several creators have expressed their concern about anime's isolation when it comes to inspiration and criticised the fact it's constantly being based in previous anime. Most notoriously Miyazaki did some years ago, but you can even go as back as mid 80s when Tezuka himself called out the lack of experimentation in Japanese animation when compared to European one for instance.

I mean, that is super unfair because it's not like experimental animation ever dominated European productions either, and there's been a consistent bunch of experimental animators in Japan since at the very least the 50s.

What Miyazaki said is also worth being taken with a grain of salt, though for other reasons. Most cultural products in a medium/cultural environment are mainly influenced by previous works in the same medium/cultural environment. I think Miyazaki has a point, but I also think that what Miyazaki says is not that outrageous and the tendency to overemphasize his words and reflections on the matter has a bit of confirmation bias tone by people who more often than not just don't like that anime reflects Japanese sensibilities and appears confined on its own culture, when this happens everywhere. Hollywood also borrows mainly from productions and formulas of past Hollywood, for instance.
 
May 25, 4:59 AM

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@jal90

OK, the major thing here is the OP is giving counter-example to his own claim with these "essential lists":

thewiru said:
@GlennMagusHarvey

A lot of people in this thread understood what i'm talking about, so you don't need to believe in me, you can believe in them.

Also, a quick google search:
https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0062/93/1426872074934.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CDiZB2J.jpg

Such "bias" is but my theory that try to explain what i have perceived: The overpraising of anything that looks western or non-anime in opposition to anime that looks like anime.

If you have another theory that explains such phenomenon in such dept, feel free to tell me.


For example, the majority of the kid shows listed above like The Arcadia of My Youth, Kemono no Souja Erin, World Masterpiece Theatre, Aim of the Ace, Space Battleship Yamoto, Gundam, Galaxy Express 999, Crayon Shin-chan, etc. have never been popular in the West, now or back then. Those "elitist" lists are not recommending shows that has already proven to be successful in the West. On the contrary, those are shows that have been very successful in Japan while little known in the West. Shows like Crayon Shin-chan was insanely popular in the 90s throughout Japan and the rest of East Asia - it was one of the most popular kid shows together with Doraemon and Sailor Moon, but I have rarely even seen it being mentioned by Western media. How does that even represent a "Western appeal"? How does anyone of them "look Western"? If anything, those lists only have proven the contrary: whoever made them are actually familiar with anime in its Japanese historical context. They go out of their way to find those old titles they couldn't have seen on TV when they were kids. They are not people who have a bias for shows that represent their own childhood nostalgia.

And all these only prove that when OP talks about "the Western taste in anime" he doesn't really know what he is talking about. What I think is happening here is OP couldn't recognise most of the shows in those lists, and since they do not look like recent anime, they do not look like anime for him.

I don't disagree fans in the West and fans in Japan may react differently to a show (the recent example being Gridman), though I would never characterise such phenomena by the term "Western appeal" because of how reductive such concept is. What I have problem with is OP has been being so vague and confused as to who even is the target of his criticism. He bundles his criticism against "Western bias" with the so-called "academics" when what those "academics" do seem to be recommending a huge variety of shows including those popular in Japan and ignored in the West. He just keeps undermining his own position.
Modified by CHC, May 25, 5:06 AM
 
May 25, 5:06 AM

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@CHC Yep, I agree with that, the examples are terrible. For instance the chart from /lit/ is more of a result of a personal attitude towards the medium than the result of Western influence. I don't think Shigurui for instance will ever be an interesting anime for a mainstream Western audience, but it absolutely tells you what idea of the medium do the kind of people who made this chart have.

Also, to nitpick a little (but not really), Crayon Shin-Chan for instance is very popular in Spain, due to the circumstance of airing on TV and having a mainstream audience.
 
May 25, 5:13 AM
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its also a generational thing, mecha was big both in japan and USA during the 90s with the likes of Gundam Wing but this new generation of fans both in japan and USA like cute girls doing cute things more

Gridman being a big hit in japan is mostly because of nostalgia and its added the mix of cute girls with Rikka and Akane, but the west today usually hates mecha although Darling in the FranXX was a big hit in the west too

so ye this is vague as shit lol

EDIT:

my mistake Darling in the FranXX did what Gridman did too making cute girls or waifus plus nostalgia for mecha but still i do not get why Gridman is not as close to the popularity of Darling in the FranXX in the west
Modified by deg, May 25, 5:21 AM
 
May 25, 5:29 AM

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jal90 said:
Unowen said:
Also several creators have expressed their concern about anime's isolation when it comes to inspiration and criticised the fact it's constantly being based in previous anime. Most notoriously Miyazaki did some years ago, but you can even go as back as mid 80s when Tezuka himself called out the lack of experimentation in Japanese animation when compared to European one for instance.

I mean, that is super unfair because it's not like experimental animation ever dominated European productions either, and there's been a consistent bunch of experimental animators in Japan since at the very least the 50s.

What Miyazaki said is also worth being taken with a grain of salt, though for other reasons. Most cultural products in a medium/cultural environment are mainly influenced by previous works in the same medium/cultural environment. I think Miyazaki has a point, but I also think that what Miyazaki says is not that outrageous and the tendency to overemphasize his words and reflections on the matter has a bit of confirmation bias tone by people who more often than not just don't like that anime reflects Japanese sensibilities and appears confined on its own culture, when this happens everywhere. Hollywood also borrows mainly from productions and formulas of past Hollywood, for instance.
Yeah you can argue against those statements but I meant them as examples because in general terms the industry gives you more hints to think in the opposite direction of what this thread is going. If it's a matter of exclusively criticising the western anime fans then he's basing his criticism in a not very representative sample.

deg said:
its also a generational thing, mecha was big both in japan and USA during the 90s with the likes of Gundam Wing but this new generation of fans both in japan and USA like cute girls doing cute things more
It's a matter of current popularity and the means people use to watch it. Most mecha fans I've encountered (or old anime fans if you want to be even more specific) didn't really grow up with them. I don't think age makes your taste, just your previous experience.
Modified by Unowen, May 25, 5:33 AM
 
May 25, 5:34 AM

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jal90 said:
@CHC Yep, I agree with that, the examples are terrible. For instance the chart from /lit/ is more of a result of a personal attitude towards the medium than the result of Western influence. I don't think Shigurui for instance will ever be an interesting anime for a mainstream Western audience, but it absolutely tells you what idea of the medium do the kind of people who made this chart have.

Also, to nitpick a little (but not really), Crayon Shin-Chan for instance is very popular in Spain, due to the circumstance of airing on TV and having a mainstream audience.

Thanks for pointing out about Shin-chan in Spain. I've seen people who tried to explain why Shin-chan and Doraemon have never been as successful in the West, referring to things like "oh they are very Japanese show... characters in those shows live in a completely Japanese setting". But your example of Spain actually shows that it has probably more things to do with the contingent broadcasting circumstances than the shows being too "non-Western".

Perhaps OP is just specifically going after the "Western" bias against moe (which is not really that much a specifically Western bias), but somehow he manages to call all those shows that doesn't follow the moe aesthetics of 2000s and 2010s "Western looking", "academic", "non-anime looking", "Hollywood"...
 
May 25, 5:43 AM
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@Unowen

can you explain more since for me age and experience are highly related
 
May 25, 6:35 AM

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sorcery said:
(A lot of this thread is based on the videos "Elitists: Your Credibility Lies At the Vanguard" and "Anime As Counter-Culture" by Digibro, so i would recommend watching them, they're good videos)
What Pullman said about not heralding the views of a shitty youtuber and start more thinking by yourself.
What counter culture? Do you even know what counter culture encompasses? The animation medium champions no definite unified vision, going counter current against a socio-cultural paradigm. It is purely entertainment, with nothing ideological pertaining to it unlike, for instance, the Hippie movement during the 60s.


How about discussing the ideas and not where they come from? In your first sentence, all I got was that you don't like Digibro and you think the person you are responding to is just a robot regurgitating knowledge from elsewhere. Maybe he has his own opinions as an individual and he just happened to find a YT video that echoes his thoughts succinctly so he shared that instead of risking wording himself poorly?

Honestly I can't stand these kinds of statements. Discuss the issues. Your other statements come off as overly verbose ways of saying nothing concrete but I'll try and tackle them regardless.

"The animation medium champions no definite unified vision"
First of all, we aren't talking about animation as a whole, we are talking about anime, which is more than a medium, it is also a style defined by certain visual and storytelling characterisitcs unique to Japanese culture. This isn't up for debate. Ask the average anime fan, google the word anime, check the rules on here and r/anime for what content counts as anime. I won't entertain debate on that subject. Anime may mean one thing to the Japanese but it has come to mean another thing to the west in general and specifically to your average non-casual, heavily invested anime fan.

"...going counter current against a socio-cultural paradigm. It's purely entertainment, with nothing ideological..."
Honestly your way communicating could be much more plain and direct, and less vague. You make broad generalizations like the previous quote and then claim there is no ideology at work in anime. There are always places to find ideology in everything. This isn't always good, depending on the ideology. But in any case where there is counter-ideology, there is ideology. Anime receives a lot of hate from the ideology of feminism, even though anime has a rich history of strong, empowered women. It's just that anime likes to present young girls as attractive and feminine at the same time. There is an ideology at work there where anime is saying media can do both these things. I'm not looking for a debate on this subject, just pointing out that ideology is everywhere. How much we recognize it is another thing entirely and I honestly believe ignoring ideology and enjoying life is better for all of us but that is impossible when an ideology wants to shut down something one enjoys.

sorcery said:
I do my best to advertise what I think is great, but if people don't wanna give a fuck, they will not. We can only plant the seed. That said apart, nobody need your brand of weeabctivism.

What particular far-eastern art vision are you talking about? You mean, weeabshit about cute girls doing cute things and fetish shows? As much as I abhor these types of shows myself, I think they must have their niche place in the medium. Indeed, I am in favor of a more balanced demand where everyone could be happy, including these "westerners" you talk about -whatever the fuck this term stands for-
Your views sound as if you want to indoctrinate them.


Alright here we go. This is where the hateful "fan" that throws around nonsense terms like "weebshit" and "fetish shows" rears his ugly head. I knew this was hiding beneath the previous pseudo-intellectual drivel. It must suck to be so miserable you have to put down and get mad at people who find happiness in something so ghastly as cute girls. And it must really suck to not be able to appreciate shows because of judgmental attitudes that put up a wall as soon as you see asthetic choices which you have decided are "weebshit".

"As much as I abhor these types of shows myself..." Give me a fucking break. Does it strain your neck looking down at all of us degenerates from all the way up there? People like you are the problem in this community. Fortunately you're a very small and irrelevent part of it. I've been to Akihabara. I've seen the culture up close. The culture that you hate so much is anime. Deal with it.

sorcery said:

I notice this here a lot, that the community is filled with an underdog mentality for simply liking anime, as in "Yeah, i recognize it is a lower form of art and that the simple thought of talking without shame about it is shameful".


Nothing will ever make it less noble. The problem arises more from the dubious messages conveyed by a plethora of controversial titles, which make the public opinion frown upon your watching choices.

I'm not asking for anyone to start praising bad or mediocre seasonals, but rather that the community would start celebrating some things that are unique to the medium instead of using "how western and non-anime it is" as a quality measurement.


Celebrating how? We parade in the streets with cosplayers to tell normies to watch Rise of the Shield Hero? Lmao
I can hardly talk for others, but I pretty much prides in my watching choices. And mostly, I don't try to pass off my guilty pleasures or shlock as enlightening masterpieces


You are so completely in the mindset of viewing everything with regards to wider society. Jesus Christ... "Parade in the streets"?? How many times do we have to tell you, this entire conversation is about perspectives within the community. We don't give a single fuck about people or culture or society outside of the anime community. And don't get me started on nonsense phrase like "guilty pleasures". This is further indicative of the self-loathing and helplessly single-minded obsession with societal norms and popular perspectives that plagues this community. There is no love for anime as a subculture in this mindset. No reverence for it, or for us, the fans. For fucks sake man. Do something, whatever it takes to get away from the idea of feeling guilt for your hobbies. Maybe then you might stop speading this toxic, negative, anti-community attitudes.

At the very least stop putting entire paragraphs in bold. And mix up the colors if you want color. All that orange is an eyesore.

@thewiru
Keep it up bro. Lots of us on your side. People need to realize the ideas you're advocating come from a palce of love for anime and the anime community and a desire to see it retain it's distinctiveness.
Current: Shield Hero, Midara na Ao-chan, Shoumetsu Toshi.
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May 25, 7:05 AM

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deg said:
@Unowen

can you explain more since for me age and experience are highly related
You might be 40 and have started watching anime only a few years ago, or 20 and have a preference for 80s anime aesthetics. Your age doesn't determine your decision-making in what media you want to consume as much as other more important factors such as availability. By experience I meant that succession of decisions, as I believe watching certain shows sooner or later might have an impact on what you end up liking.
Modified by Unowen, May 25, 7:11 AM
 
May 25, 7:12 AM
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Unowen said:
deg said:
@Unowen

can you explain more since for me age and experience are highly related
You might be 40 and have started watching anime only a few years ago, or 20 and have a preference for 80s anime aesthetics. Your age doesn't determine your decision-making in what media you want to consume as much as other more important factors such as availability.


oh ok you mean literal age there then

but what determines the current trend or popular genre though?
 
May 25, 7:37 AM

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jal90 said:
Please go back to the 00s where you belong.


Here here. I just wrote a long reply to a post from that guy only find he just gets worse. Not a waste of time because other people will read my ideas but it's a shame I had to give him a brief sojourn in my head.

jal90 said:

Anyway and on topic, I said it before and other people have articulated it better @thewiru but your fight is super unfocused. You are not explaining well exactly what kind of paradigm you are fighting against and why is it worth to fight it. Why should I care that Westerners appreciate Cowboy Bebop or Ghibli more than K-On! or Madoka Magica. Why is it a problem, and if it is, what is an appropriate solution. There's a limit to how agreeable can a vague idea be.


Fair point. I don't claim to speak on behalf on thewiru but I tend to agree wholeheartedly with every single thing he says so I'm sure we have an extremely similar perspective. With that in mind I'll try and clear up what you find to be unclear.

This whole thing is focused on attitudes within the community. We want the community to embrace all aspects of anime whereas there is a push from certain people against the things that make anime distinct from western media. There many many people that, as soon as they see a cute girl or fan service, will immediately discount any merit for that show. Which is fine, they can have their preferences, even if it is judgmental and limits what they can appreciate, it's their problem. It becomes a problem for the community though when they bring these ideas in to the open spaces of discussion. These are the spaces that define the community and end up defining the perception of anime.

Now, you might argue, why is it a problem if there are people that have these negative attitudes? There will always be assholes that say stupid shit and we can always find other people with similar interests in the community. We shouldn't care what other people think, right?

Well... In genreal, no, we shouldn't. But this is our fellow anime fans we're talking about. Just like I care what my family thinks, I care about what the people I view as my people - those who are supposed to be similar to me - think. And if there is a prevalent attitude of hate towards something I love in the space where I come to enjoy the company of like-minded people, that is a problem for me. This ties in to the very notion of what it means to be part of a community. But I won't get in to that too much because it's a reaaally long conversation. There is a perception shared by many, myself included, that these attitudes (call it what you like, genre-snobbery, mainstreamification, appeals to western social norms...) are becoming more prevelent an it is alienating and pushing out those of us that love anime for what it is, not what other people want it to be. The thing about western-style shows (Bebop, C&T) isn't that they're bad, it's that they weaponized against more traditionally anime shows to put them down. Would shows like Lucky Star or Haruhi find so much success in todays r/anime influenced climate? Or would many of the newer fans see them as "just another trashy cute girls" show?

Ultimately, when it comes to what we can do about it, I am in two minds. I try to push for more accepting, open-mindedness in the community. I have a blog which I haven't done a new article for in ages even though I write enough on this board and on Reddit to cover about five a week. I like to think I can make a difference by influencing others, but... I know that anime has already changed over the years and will likely continue to do so. I only hope that the change won't condemn classics like Lucky Star, Haruhi, Clannad etc. to the trash heap in favour of more "normal", western stuff. But I don't have much hope. I honestly see a split in the anime community at some point. I saw a YouTube comment with hundreds of likes that used the phrase "Japanese anime" the other day... That kind of scares me tbh. But I think a time will come when people like me will have to call myself a J-anime fan or some such phrase. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But it will hurt to hear the word that represented something I love so dearly appropriated by people with whom I feel no kinship.


jal90 said:
On the other hand, on the term "counter-culture". While "supremacism" was an absolutely terrible word to use (and I called you out and I'm glad you changed it) in this context, I'm not sure how "counter-culture" applies here. Anime is not a counter-culture of the West. It's a culture and counter-culture of Japan, which is the environment it relates to. And there's a lot to say about how manga and anime challenge paradigms in their own cultural environment (Tezuka's Western influences, Go Nagai's sex and ultraviolence focused stories at the time, magical girl and lolita fashion...), which people more knowledgeable than me could further expand. But what anime can never be is a counter-culture of a foreign culture. It doesn't make sense to observe it like that. In case you are referring to the fans, I'm not... really sure how liking and promoting certain shows outside of the perceived comfort zone can be considered counter-cultural. It's even a bit pretentious to say that, specially in a world where people are not that against them, they are just not into them.


I think you're getting hung up on semantics instead of focusing on the meaning that is trying to be conveyed. Perhpas "sub-culture" would have been a better term. "Counter-culture" as defined by something which exists specifically as a counter to popular culture, is not the right term for anime within the western fandom, true. But it remains the case that anime is very much opposite to western mainstream sensibilities / popular culture in many ways. And I don't just mean in terms of cute girls and fan service. I always bring up NGE here. NGE is a show with long stretches of slow-paced character development, with themes of depression and isolation. Very mature, adult themes. But it's told from the persepective of a teenage boy. A virgin too, with all the insecurities that come from that on full display. Oh and it has giant robots fighting weird divine aliens and there's cloning and all kinds of other craziness (to put it lightly). Look me in the eyes and tell me mainstreamification and reduction of anime to western norms will produce another NGE. I dare you. it's not that these shows won't exist in such a space. But they won't be considered classics of anime in the same way some of the most amazing creative but low-budget films of the last couple decades don't get talked about classics of film.

jal90 said:
As for how "Western appeal" shows can be described... I think looking for a single, all-encompassing definition is a failure.


I don't believe a such a definition is necessary with regards to this conversation.

jal90 said:
For instance, there is really no discernible reason why Spirited away has such a Western appeal when it's a very Japanese film about Japanese mythology and spirituality. It just happened like that.


The presentation of all Ghibli films are heavily inspired by Disney and as such are much more palettable for the average western normie. Your Name and A Slient Voice are both ranked higher on MAL than Spirited Away. Yet the average western person is much more likely to have heard of Spirited Away. There is definitely a discernable reason.
Current: Shield Hero, Midara na Ao-chan, Shoumetsu Toshi.
Weekly: Sounan Desu ka, Tejina-senpai, Dumbbell Nan Kilo Moteru, Miru Tights, Kawaikereba, Takagi-san 2.
Recently finished: HitoriBocchi (6), Nobunaga's Young Bride (5), Amazing Stranger (7), Dororo (7), Senko-san (6), Gunjou no Magmel (4), Senryuu Shoujo (6).

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May 25, 7:50 AM

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@YossaRedMage

First of all, we aren't talking about animation as a whole, we are talking about anime, which is more than a medium, it is also a style defined by certain visual and storytelling characterisitcs unique to Japanese culture. This isn't up for debate. Ask the average anime fan, google the word anime, check the rules on here and r/anime for what content counts as anime. I won't entertain debate on that subject. Anime may mean one thing to the Japanese but it has come to mean another thing to the west in general and specifically to your average non-casual, heavily invested anime fan.


OMG. I thought I have seen enough stupidity on MAL forum. It's a dumb thing to say anime is a specific style, an even dumber thing to try to support yourself with MAL rules. Read what the database admin said:

Anime is, by definition of our guidelines, animated works that originate from Japan. If we changed the guidelines to a definition of style rather than origin, many series currently in the database - that are legitimately Japanese anime - would be removed. Furthermore, it would become difficult to define guidelines on what to keep out and what to allow in. In the end, it would be chaos.


https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=635001&show=80#msg24064451

It's pretty clear why you could have so mistaken about what MAL takes as an anime: you have seen only a tiny amount of anime, so you've never encountered things like this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this or this on MAL.
Well, since you insist on "this isn't up for debate", all I can say is that fans who have seen too few anime tend to believe anime can be defined in terms of style. It's curable through watching more shows from different eras and learn about the internal diversity of the medium.
 
May 25, 7:57 AM

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YossaRedMage said:
I always bring up NGE here. NGE is a show with long stretches of slow-paced character development, with themes of depression and isolation. Very mature, adult themes. But it's told from the persepective of a teenage boy. A virgin too, with all the insecurities that come from that on full display. Oh and it has giant robots fighting weird divine aliens and there's cloning and all kinds of other craziness (to put it lightly). Look me in the eyes and tell me mainstreamification and reduction of anime to western norms will produce another NGE. I dare you. it's not that these shows won't exist in such a space. But they won't be considered classics of anime in the same way some of the most amazing creative but low-budget films of the last couple decades don't get talked about classics of film.
I don't really get what you're trying to say here. You make it sound like there's something meaningfully non-Western about Evangelion when the reality is quite the opposite. Most of Evangelion's iconic images, terminology, and verbiage are influenced by Christian theology and the Jewish Kabbalah. The Angels, crosses, the Magi infrastructure, Adam, Lilith, the Dead Sea Scrolls. Even the name is a religious title and essentially translates to a Gospel for the New Century.

Many of the characters are racial mixes or come from different countries. The soundtrack and musical influence for NGE is notoriously Western with Shinji's preference for Bach, his playing of the cello, and Anno's love of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. And who can forget how every episode ends with "Fly Me to the Moon?" Almost all of the tracks of the soundtracks are English titles with choruses echoing religious chants. Even the climax of End of Evangelion, where Third Impact occurs and humanity is transfigured into a sea of LCL, is heavily influenced by both the Tree of Life/World Unity of Kabbalah theology and the idea of a Collective Unconscious, first brought forth by the Swiss psychologist Carl Jung.

If anything, NGE represents what an anime meshed with tons of foreign concepts could potentially look like, and to suggest NGE is not mainstream and does not cater to "western norms" is ridiculous.

Finally, to suggest that giant robots fighting divine aliens is weird or uniquely an anime or Japanese aesthetic comes off as a little bit overzealous. This kind of technology vs. the divine has been a thing for centuries. Milton's Paradise Lost features a famous battle where Satan unveils a legion of cannons that he uses to fire upon the divine angels, and the old Englishman certainly isn't Japanese and likely had never heard of them.

Modified by Yudina, May 25, 8:16 AM
 
May 25, 8:08 AM

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As a disclaimer, I don't necessarily believe that "Western norms" as a totalizing idea is a real thing, but granting that "the West" exists, the issue I'm mostly seeing is that there's a lot of railing against Western norms, values, and social ideas, but not a lot of real understanding or engaging with their actual ideas, and we get to a point where a lot of anime that are being thrown out to prove a kind of point are not uniquely non-Western.

Sure, I'd grant that Haruhi is much more "anime" (whatever that means) or at least centered on otaku culture than perhaps a Cowboy Bebop, but Haruhi's absolutely in love with Western science fiction. One of the main characters is literally always reading Dan Simmon's Hyperion Cantos (one of my favorite works of sci-fi) and in Disappearance, she's seen reading all sorts of other shit.
Modified by Yudina, May 25, 8:12 AM
 
May 25, 8:19 AM

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CHC said:

It's pretty clear why you could have so mistaken about what MAL takes as an anime: you have seen only a tiny amount of anime, so you've never encountered things like this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this or this on MAL.
Well, since you insist on "this isn't up for debate", all I can say is that fans who have seen too few anime tend to believe anime can be defined in terms of style. It's curable through watching more shows from different eras and learn about the internal diversity of the medium.
Wait what the fuck Dir En Grey has an anime music video lmfao
 
May 25, 8:57 AM

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Yudina said:
As a disclaimer, I don't necessarily believe that "Western norms" as a totalizing idea is a real thing, but granting that "the West" exists, the issue I'm mostly seeing is that there's a lot of railing against Western norms, values, and social ideas, but not a lot of real understanding or engaging with their actual ideas, and we get to a point where a lot of anime that are being thrown out to prove a kind of point are not uniquely non-Western.

Sure, I'd grant that Haruhi is much more "anime" (whatever that means) or at least centered on otaku culture than perhaps a Cowboy Bebop, but Haruhi's absolutely in love with Western science fiction. One of the main characters is literally always reading Dan Simmon's Hyperion Cantos (one of my favorite works of sci-fi) and in Disappearance, she's seen reading all sorts of other shit.

I begin to understand all those confused polemics against the Western taste as a veiled struggle for recognition by moe fans: since moe has a more established status in Japanese otaku fandom, while it is less so in the West, so "more anime" becomes for them a coded term for "moe", and "Western" a coded term for "non-moe". It is so formulated to push the idea that "what we're watching is more authentically anime".

I mean, I would defend moe aesthetics (but not necessarily how every single moe fan consumes it), but I don't see why we must see them as more "authentic" in any essentialising fashion, nor do I see why we should care about authenticity at all. Anime fads come and go. Throughout the 60s to 80s it was sci-fi and mecha which dominated the fandom, and now they are seen as "non-anime looking"? That's way too dumb.
 
May 25, 9:00 AM

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CHC said:
@

For example, the majority of the kid shows listed above like The Arcadia of My Youth, Kemono no Souja Erin, World Masterpiece Theatre, Aim of the Ace, Space Battleship Yamoto, Gundam, Galaxy Express 999, Crayon Shin-chan, etc. have never been popular in the West, now or back then..


This is not true. Those series were popular and used to have high domestic TV ratings.

Space Battleship Yamato was broadcast in the USA in the late 70s and the English dub version was exported to Europe. Galaxy Express was dubbed in some European languages and Captain Harlock was very popular too. I watched Harlock and Arcadia of my Youth in the 80s. World Masterpiece Theater were some of the most popular series in the West too and almost all were broadcast abroad, some even in the USA. Aim for the Ace was dubbed in Western Europe too in French, Italian, Spanish, Arabic etc. Same for Latin America. European dubs were full of magical girl series long before Sailor Moon was a thing. Eg Lalabel, Minky momo, Megu-chan. Even classic series like , Seine no Hoshi, Attack no 1, Sandybell, Step-jun, Maple Town

While boys had series like Dash Kaippei, Plawress Sanshiro and countless mecha like Mazinger, Grendizer, Getter Robo, Voltes V etc
Future Boy Conan was also very popular in Italy, long before the name Hayao Miyazaki became known.
I'd say there was more anime variety back then on European TV than today.

In the case of Candy Candy manga that was 8 volumes, Italians officially continued the story to 12 volumes, drawing their own version! This has not happened in any other manga since.

I think it is rather a generational gap. Unlike Japan, European broadcasters could not afford to re-run old series, because they had bought the license only for a short time. Many series were not available for video rent either. There were even vinyl discs with OST.

Newer generations got to experience different series without having the chance to watch the old ones, with very few exceptions.

@Yudina

I read also that French speaking Canada used to import anime from France that werent available in the US, eg Dirty Pair. There was even a dubbed 70s anime taking place in Quebec called Wakakusa no Charlotte. Popular in Europe, yet a flop in Japan, was cancelled due to low ratings. WMT series Bushbabies was broadcast in English too, based on a Canadian novel, though it takes place in East Africa
Modified by petran79, May 25, 3:09 PM
 
May 25, 9:10 AM

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petran79 said:
CHC said:
@

For example, the majority of the kid shows listed above like The Arcadia of My Youth, Kemono no Souja Erin, World Masterpiece Theatre, Aim of the Ace, Space Battleship Yamoto, Gundam, Galaxy Express 999, Crayon Shin-chan, etc. have never been popular in the West, now or back then..


This is not true. Those series were popular and used to have high domestic TV ratings.

Space Battleship Yamato was broadcast in the USA in the late 70s and the English dub version was exported to Europe. Galaxy Express was dubbed in some European languages and Captain Harlock was very popular too. I watched Harlock and Arcadia of my Youth in the 80s. World Masterpiece Theater were some of the most popular series in the West too and almost all were broadcast abroad, some even in the USA. Aim for the Ace was dubbed in Western Europe too in French, Italian, Spanish, Arabic etc. Same for Latin America. European dubs were full of magical girl series long before Sailor Moon was a thing. Eg Lalabel, Minky momo, Megu-chan. Even classic series like , Seine no Hoshi, Attack no 1, Sandybell, Step-jun, Maple Town

While boys had series like Dash Kaippei, Plawress Sanshiro and countless mecha like Mazinger, Grendizer, Getter Robo, Voltes V etc
Future Boy Conan was also very popular in Italy, long before the name Hayao Miyazaki became known.
I'd say there was more anime variety back then on European TV than today.

In the case of Candy Candy manga that was 8 volumes, Italians officially continued the story to 12 volumes, drawing their own version! This has not happened in any other manga since.

I think it is rather a generational gap. Unlike Japan, European broadcasters could not afford to re-run old series, because they had bought the license only for a short time. Many series were not available for video rent either. There were even vinyl discs with OST.

Newer generations got to experience different series without having the chance to watch the old ones, with very few exceptions.

Oh thanks for pointing out my mistake. I'm not familiar with Western broadcasting history. I just have never seen a lot of people in the West mentioning those shows, despite many of them are regarded as the milestones in anime history in Japan.

But I think my point still stands: those shows were very popular in Japan and it means nothing to say they somehow "doesn't look like anime" or they're of a specifically Western appeal.
 
May 25, 9:17 AM

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There's a lot of weird blips where shows you normally think only had their time in Japan actually ended up being popular elsewhere. I have a friend who grew up with a lot of obscure shoujo titles from the 80s because where she grow up in Bolivia, there was a Japanese enclave so there was some Japanese broadcasting on television to cater to the local population.
 
May 25, 11:28 AM

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CHC said:
I don't disagree fans in the West and fans in Japan may react differently to a show (the recent example being Gridman), though I would never characterise such phenomena by the term "Western appeal" because of how reductive such concept is. What I have problem with is OP has been being so vague and confused as to who even is the target of his criticism. He bundles his criticism against "Western bias" with the so-called "academics" when what those "academics" do seem to be recommending a huge variety of shows including those popular in Japan and ignored in the West. He just keeps undermining his own position.
OP strikes me as having a certain feeling about the anime fandom and then trying to bend over backwards to justify why that feeling is something that other people should be feeling.

----

@YossaRedMage

Let's start with your comment at the end:

YossaRedMage said:
@thewiru
Keep it up bro. Lots of us on your side. People need to realize the ideas you're advocating come from a palce of love for anime and the anime community and a desire to see it retain it's distinctiveness.
This isn't some sort of struggle between sides. Unless you make it one by drawing battle lines in the community like this.



YossaRedMage said:
There are always places to find ideology in everything. This isn't always good, depending on the ideology. But in any case where there is counter-ideology, there is ideology. Anime receives a lot of hate from the ideology of feminism, even though anime has a rich history of strong, empowered women. It's just that anime likes to present young girls as attractive and feminine at the same time. There is an ideology at work there where anime is saying media can do both these things. I'm not looking for a debate on this subject, just pointing out that ideology is everywhere. How much we recognize it is another thing entirely and I honestly believe ignoring ideology and enjoying life is better for all of us but that is impossible when an ideology wants to shut down something one enjoys.
1. It's possible to *read* ideology into everything, rather than *find*.

2. Looking at feminist criticism of anime and concluding "feminism [as a whole] hates anime" is quite a broad and inaccurate stroke, considering that anime has been criticized in similarly strong ways by various others who are not said to "hate" anime. Elitists are an example, and have probably spewed far more bile about far more anime series than any feminist who isn't a longtime fan ever has.

3. Therefore, the ideology of feminism does not "want to shut down" anime, and your suggestion to the contrary is at best supported by poorly thought out flamebait statements on the internet, of which there are a dime a gross from pretty much everyone of every opinion. Let's remind ourselves that "anime was a mistake" is a meme right here on AD.

YossaRedMage said:
it is also a style defined by certain visual and storytelling characterisitcs unique to Japanese culture.
While they originated in Japan and may be associated with elements of Japanese culture, they're certainly not "unique" to Japanese culture in the sense that no one else can understand and use them.

@sorcery too because this is sort of a combo reply. (also good gosh that yellow text from sorcery; thanks for stripping it out in your reply YossaRedMage)

I have friends who use the term "weeb shit" and they don't do it out of "hate", unless you think that they actually "hate" all the other things that they flame in their rough-and-tumble attitude toward life. If you asked them whether they actually think it's bad shit that people should feel guilty about enjoying, they'll tell you that, honestly, they don't give a fuck, you and everyone else can enjoy what you and everyone else wants.

And in this regard, I agree with @sorcery's position that shows I'm personally not interested in or dislike are shows whose existence I'm perfectly fine with, as long as no one forces me to watch them.

@sorcery talks about a "balanced demand where everyone could be happy", and while that's never gonna happen perfectly, there is (1) ALREADY a HUGE variety of anime series (and an even bigger variety if you count manga and LNs and VNs) in existence, which is accessible to a variety of tastes and interests, and (2) naturally the market is going to result in there continuing to be a variety because having a diversified customer base simply makes business sense.

But at the same time, there's money to be made in niches, so the niches will continue to be served. As long as they're big enough obviously -- some super-niche stuff isn't well-served even by the huge variety of existing anime.

YossaRedMage said:
"As much as I abhor these types of shows myself..." Give me a fucking break. Does it strain your neck looking down at all of us degenerates from all the way up there? People like you are the problem in this community. Fortunately you're a very small and irrelevent part of it. I've been to Akihabara. I've seen the culture up close. The culture that you hate so much is anime. Deal with it.
Stop being so easily offended, and then coming up with presumptions based on that feeling of offense.

anime = a set of TV shows and movies

anime =/= a culture

Good for you, you've been to Akihabara. They have certain cultural elements there, yes. Does that mean all the rest of us have to try to emulate it? No.

And it's not like the western fandom ever did a good job of it anyway. (How much has the western fandom paid attention to Langrisser or Popful Mail?)

Besides, it's a collection of niche interests. Not all niche interests are everyone's interests, pretty much by definition. If you plopped me down in Akihabara I'd gladly visit the old game shops, and I'd completely ignore the maid cafes.


YossaRedMage said:
This whole thing is focused on attitudes within the community. We want the community to embrace all aspects of anime whereas there is a push from certain people against the things that make anime distinct from western media. There many many people that, as soon as they see a cute girl or fan service, will immediately discount any merit for that show. Which is fine, they can have their preferences, even if it is judgmental and limits what they can appreciate, it's their problem. It becomes a problem for the community though when they bring these ideas in to the open spaces of discussion. These are the spaces that define the community and end up defining the perception of anime.
So you're trying to control what opinions others express about anime? Like, you disapprove of these opinions so they shouldn't be expressed?

You disagree with them, that's fine, but that's no reason to shut them up. You can express your disagreement and why you disagree. And I thank you for doing so, even if I disagree with you. After all, that makes sense.

As for the subject of this disagreement:

> there is a push from certain people against the things that make anime distinct from western media. There many many people that, as soon as they see a cute girl or fan service, will immediately discount any merit for that show.

And people will be uninterested in a show for all sorts of reasons -- it isn't artsy enough, it's isekai, it's from a studio they don't like, it's a genre they don't like, it's got no cute girls, it's got no fanservice, etc. etc. etc..

This isn't an "anti-anime agenda". This is just people having preferences. Is people complaining about a certain studio "anti-anime"? Is people complaining about isekai "anti-anime"? Is people complaining that a show doesn't have cute girls and fanservice "anti-anime"?

Or are you just picking and choosing a few things to represent what being distinctively "anime" means to you, and then suggesting to enforce these tastes on others?

YossaRedMage said:
And if there is a prevalent attitude of hate towards something I love in the space where I come to enjoy the company of like-minded people, that is a problem for me.
I agree that they shouldn't just bash things they don't like because that's impolite, but they should be allowed to express their opinions in civil, level-headed ways.

YossaRedMage said:
Would shows like Lucky Star or Haruhi find so much success in todays r/anime influenced climate? Or would many of the newer fans see them as "just another trashy cute girls" show?
You're playing victimhood and blaming r/anime for it.

I don't know Lucky Star well but Haruhi became a smash hit for its groundbreaking handling of tropes.

YossaRedMage said:
I only hope that the change won't condemn classics like Lucky Star, Haruhi, Clannad etc. to the trash heap in favour of more "normal", western stuff.
More " 'normal', western stuff" like Re:Zero, Cells at Work, That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime, Yuru Camp, Pop Team Epic,...

....yeah I don't think this works.

You're just hung up on a false dichotomy over whether stuff is somehow "for" normies/westerners, and greatly oversimplifying people's tastes. Because, while you're making hay of this supposed dichotomy...Lucky Star, Haruhi, and Clannad continue to appear in lists of generic recs circulating around the western fandom anyway.

YossaRedMage said:
jal90 said:
As for how "Western appeal" shows can be described... I think looking for a single, all-encompassing definition is a failure.


I don't believe a such a definition is necessary with regards to this conversation.

jal90 said:
For instance, there is really no discernible reason why Spirited away has such a Western appeal when it's a very Japanese film about Japanese mythology and spirituality. It just happened like that.


The presentation of all Ghibli films are heavily inspired by Disney and as such are much more palettable for the average western normie. Your Name and A Slient Voice are both ranked higher on MAL than Spirited Away. Yet the average western person is much more likely to have heard of Spirited Away. There is definitely a discernable reason.
You don't have a definition, but you're just claiming "oh it's like this because it is like this".

On the other hand, Spirited Away is years older than Your Name and A Silent Voice. This explains BOTH why Spirited Away is more well-known and why the latter two movies have higher ratings on MAL. On top of that, Spirited Away won an Oscar too, so that's fame++.

Meanwhile, given the recentness of Your Name and A Silent Voice, there's been more said by various people opining that they're "normie" anime and bashing them for that. Here on AD.

YossaRedMage said:
Look me in the eyes and tell me mainstreamification and reduction of anime to western norms will produce another NGE. I dare you.
I'm going to look you in the eye (as much as is possible over the internet) and tell you instead that these things are not happening, or at least not in the way that you think they are.



By the way, I myself am an illustration of why your oversimplification of people's tastes doesn't work.

On one hand:
* I'm arguing against your point.
* I don't like sexual fanservice.
* I don't like Lucky Star.

On the other hand:
* I like Haruhi.
* I've argued repeatedly against Digibro's flaming of Asterisk War, and I've repeatedly asserted that Asterisk War (of all things, Asterisk War!) is actually not that bad of a show.
* I am willing to explore a giant pile of obscure anime from a decade ago that no one cares about and watch that stuff and then talk about it.

Explain *me*.

Explain how various people have all sorts of combinations of taste that cut across this supposed dichotomy between Japanese and western tastes.

Alternatively, make a COMPREHENSIVE list of all the things that you value for their being not "western" or whatever. Don't just define your sense of community by being unlike something else.

(And don't just say "cute girls and fanservice" and leave it at that; I can get "cute girls and fanservice" at a strip club in Wyoming.)

----

Yudina said:
Even the name is a religious title and essentially translates to a Gospel for the New Century.
I think the Greek title is "New Beginning Gospel"; it's the Japanese title that uses "Century" I think.

Yudina said:
The soundtrack and musical influence for NGE is notoriously Western with Shinji's preference for Bach, his playing of the cello, and Anno's love of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. And who can forget how every episode ends with "Fly Me to the Moon?" Almost all of the tracks of the soundtracks are English titles with choruses echoing religious chants.
Composer Shirou Sagisu also has a thing for jazz.
 
May 25, 12:50 PM

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Posts: 728
Boy, it will take some time to answer all that.
After my last post i went to sleep and honestly thought i would be banned by the morning.

@CHC

So who are the people you have problems with? Random fans on the internet who has what seems to you an "academic" or "Hollywood" taste?


Well... Yes.

What does it even mean to decentralise anime knowledge? What is anime knowledge? What is the institution that you think anime knowledge is currently being centralised in? If you're just referring to the few people who write anime reviews and make youtube videos etc., then I beg you to explain how could those random guys is capable to "centralise" anime knowledge (whatever it is).


Because we talked about a plethora of things.
The "decentralization" part came when you mentioned things made at universities. I just said i prefered knowledge to be made "bottom-up" than "top-down", but i've never said this happens nowadays, in the end just wanted to say that i want nothing to do with universities.

I don't think people that make videos are able to centralize knowledge either, we are talking about two complete different matters here.

I mean, there is virtually no institutional barrier to stop you from starting your own blog or your own channel.


Which is why i have one... it's in my signature.
This thread was mainly aimed at content creators, because i'm also one and have made a lot of content debunking, for instance, myths in this community.

The only way I can make sense of your complain is that you seem to have inferiority complex to those people who have a different taste than yours, but you can't challenge them on their own ground because they know more about anime than you, you haven't seen the shows they praise so you can't provide argument as to why their taste sucks, so instead you accuse them for putting up the face of an authority, when they're just random people on the internet and have no position in any powerful institution.


I've challenged people with doctorates about stuff despite being only a college student IRL, so this isn't quite the problem.
I actually do challenge them on their own grounds, so when it comes to anime it isn't a problem either, and yes, i can provide arguments.

Also, i've directly criticized the contents of every show i've said to have a problem with.

It means nothing just to accuse people who like those show for having an "academic" or "Hollywood" taste when you never define what you mean by those terms.


I did define them.
The definition would be a taste that can only see quality in anime when it is trying to be "western" as opposed as "having the strenghts of it's media".

It's like saying someone can only see a cat as "a good cat" when it barks and wiggles his tail.

It doesn't help just to post a few example of random "essential lists" especially when you clearly haven't even seen half of the shows mentioned by those lists.


I counldn't find the lists i was thinking about on google images, so i just picked some random ones.
And like i've said earlier, and you would know having read my previous posts, i've never said that ALL of them in that list were like this either way.

BTW, AKIRA is like pretty much THE definition of ""Western", "academic", "Hollywood", or "do not look like anime"".

@jal90

Anyway and on topic, I said it before and other people have articulated it better @thewiru but your fight is super unfocused.


I've noticed that.
But i didn't make this thread having the theory complete, i actually wanted to discuss with people in order to improve it.
Making me realize i'm kind of unfocused was one thing that helped.

Why should I care that Westerners appreciate Cowboy Bebop or Ghibli more than K-On! or Madoka Magica. Why is it a problem, and if it is, what is an appropriate solution.


It isn't a problem on it's own.
The problem would be, as i see in many of this community, would be presenting Cowboy Bebop as THE right way to make anime as oposed to K-ON" or Madoka, presenting those as the WRONG way ('moeshit', etc).
My theory is that doing so despises anime's identity and individuality, giving a message that "The ONLY right way to do it is by being westernized and/or not having anime tropes".
In the end it begs the question "If you're trying the most to make an anime not look like one, why make an anime in the first place?"

So what should I do? How do I promote Flying witch or Konohana Kitan to an audience that is clearly not used to their narrative approaches? Is it even something I should worry about? And that last question is key, and you haven't answered it properly.


I don't have the full answer, but part of this thread is to discuss about it.
My point would be to create content (Videos, posts, infographics, images, etc) in order to introduce and sell people into it. If you really like something, it would make sense to also mae other people love ti the way you do, right?

I know at this point i'm relying on Digibro too much, but he has the perfect example from the time were the mainstream community had issues with moe and K-ON!, he made a video that changed a lot of people's minds defending it.

The point of this thread would be encouraging content creators to make content like this.

On the other hand, on the term "counter-culture". While "supremacism" was an absolutely terrible word to use (and I called you out and I'm glad you changed it) in this context, I'm not sure how "counter-culture" applies here.


Yes, probably "subculture" would be a better choice.
I just used it because in my line of thought i was thinking "anime as opposed to more mainstream mediums"

On the other hand, of course there is stuff with clearer and less circumstantial Western appeal. Think of Watanabe's Cowboy Bebop and currently airing Carole & Tuesday and compare them to [insert show about Japanese mythology]. It's evident that one side is more accessible through pop culture references and environment than the other to a Western audience, and there's a reason why Carole & Tuesday is on Netflix and Sarazanmai isn't while both come from respected and revered directors. But that only explains a portion of the cases and is only useful to trace and explain why certain platforms choose to highlight some shows instead of others. For instance, there is really no discernible reason why Spirited away has such a Western appeal when it's a very Japanese film about Japanese mythology and spirituality. It just happened like that.


Yes, i'm referring to shows like that.

@Unowen

I've addressed your other paragraphs earlir in this post (Yes, i f*cked up with the lists), so i will only comment the last one.

Also several creators have expressed their concern about anime's isolation when it comes to inspiration and criticised the fact it's constantly being based in previous anime. Most notoriously Miyazaki did some years ago, but you can even go as back as mid 80s when Tezuka himself called out the lack of experimentation in Japanese animation when compared to European one for instance.


Which is something that i agree (Though really, Miyazaki is shittalking the industry since Tezuka, so we should take him with grains of salt).
Which is why this year in specifically i've been more inclined towards watching shows that "look/feel different" in some way while still being "anime", if you look at my watching history you will see that this year i went out of my way to watch Kaiba, Kaiji, HisoMaso, Boogiepop Phantom and etc.
I'm totally in favor of people bringing foreign experiences in anime.

@CHC

Those "elitist" lists are not recommending shows that has already proven to be successful in the West.


Which i've never claimed them to be.

How does that even represent a "Western appeal"?


A show doesn't have to look western in order to be successful in the west, i have never claimed that.
I feel like our communication has been very poor.

They go out of their way to find those old titles they couldn't have seen on TV when they were kids. They are not people who have a bias for shows that represent their own childhood nostalgia.


Another thing i've never claimed.


I will also fully agree with @YossaRedMage that presented my own point better than i could.
I will also add in response to @Yudina that while, yes, NGE influences are western, NGE wouldn't be something that would be spontaneously made in the west.
And while there's no discussion NGE is mainstream in Japan, i wouldn't be 100% sure about the west. I would say that most people most likely have heard about it, but not as many have watched it, NGE is not nearly as mainstream in the west as it is in Japan.

@CHC

This will bring back the long discussion about "What defines anime".
Quoting Digibro for the fourth time this thread, his video about it is pretty good (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc0tIjw7fII).

In the end the definition of anime is "Animation that comes from japan" is used because it's the lowest common denominator we can find, yet it's a weak definition because it doesn't explain by itself why anime looks how it looks or is how it is.
If we were to give a "full meaning" to the word anime that encompasses all that, it would be too big for a dictionary entry, considering that we would have to encompass all it's history and cultural influences.

Which is why i think the best definition that may solve this problem is treating anime like it's own medium, not a style, and not a genre (Like newspapers are their own medium, and not a style of books. Or like cinema is it's own medium and not a genre of theater.)
Lusophones of the world, hear my podcast:
http://podanimecast.com.br
 
May 25, 12:52 PM

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Posts: 4858
thewiru said:
Boy, it will take some time to answer all that.
I think at some point even if the thread doesn't get locked the argument just runs itself out of gas because it takes absotively fracking forever to write up these replies.
 
May 25, 1:40 PM

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CHC said:
OMG. I thought I have seen enough stupidity on MAL forum. It's a dumb thing to say anime is a specific style, an even dumber thing to try to support yourself with MAL rules. Read what the database admin said:

Anime is, by definition of our guidelines, animated works that originate from Japan. If we changed the guidelines to a definition of style rather than origin, many series currently in the database - that are legitimately Japanese anime - would be removed. Furthermore, it would become difficult to define guidelines on what to keep out and what to allow in. In the end, it would be chaos.


Well, three things.

1. I shouldn't have said it isn't up for debate because here I am replying. Though saying that I'm not so much debating my original premise that anime is a style more than it is a medium (though it is both). Either way it was a dumb thing to say.

2. What wasn't a dumb thing to say was that anime is a style. I worded it badly though, as shown by your representation of what I said: "anime is a sepcific style". I think there is a complex middle ground here. Anime is certainly more than a medium, but not a single style. Rather, I would argue that there are certain styles that are distinctive and unique to anime and as such are important in it's identity. I largely agree with the idea that anime should be defined as "animation originating from Japan" on MAL, r/anime etc. which leads me to my third point.

3. You got me with that MAL quote. I am humble enough to admit when I goofed. r/anime rules may even be similar, though a google definition still says "style of Japanese animation". And regardless of MAL, r/anime or dictionary definitions, it is ultimately how people use words that defines them. There are many that call for western productions done in the anime style to be allowed on MAL, r/anime etc. While I don't agree with them because I think it would open the floodgates, I am sympathetic to the idea for obvious reasons.

CHC said:
It's pretty clear why you could have so mistaken about what MAL takes as an anime: you have seen only a tiny amount of anime, so you've never encountered things like [list of anime] on MAL.
Well, since you insist on "this isn't up for debate", all I can say is that fans who have seen too few anime tend to believe anime can be defined in terms of style. It's curable through watching more shows from different eras and learn about the internal diversity of the medium.


Good! Put me down for my limited list! Let the elitism flow through you!

I'm not even kidding. We may have a disagreement on some things but I have a huge amount of respect for people who have actually been around for a while and watched a large amount of stuff. And I think people in that position deserve to be listened to over and above those who are newer and have invested less of their lives.

In my defense, I'm not someone who has flippantly got in to anime. I'm in my 30s so I don't do that teenage thing of going through phrases. I'm invested. I am up to a level of conversational Japanese. I've been to Japan. Spent tons on merch. This is a massive aside but to help you understand where I'm coming from, I was big in to western media before anime. I still have a DVD collection of about 350ish movies. My favourites were always the obscure, creative, different stuff that was found from low-budget productions. Then I found anime and it was like uncovering a treasure trove of amazing stories that were all like those low-budget western productions. Though, a low budget in anime isn't a problem because amazing, beautiful, inspired, distinctive art drawn with passion and flair doesn't need money. It just needs people with a vision. Obviously I want to expand my list but I'm picky about how I experience shows in terms of time of day, setting. Everything needs to be set up perfect. Also, I started the Fate VN three weeks ago so I've been almost exclusively playing that (~75 hours in three weeks, my God it's good).

Maybe from that you understand why I'm skeptical of normies and mainstreamification of anime; why I'm so adamant about anime retaining all the little things that make it what it is; and why I can't stand people that put down aspects of it in what appears to be an attempt to "normify" it. I like how different anime is from my movie collection and I don't want westernification of this awesome thing I discovered.

@GlennMagusHarvey

As usual you give a lot to work with but I don't want to spend too much time here. This conversation is on the verge of degenerating in to semantic drivel (from both of us, no shade). I will focus on a couple points [EDIT: LOL! So much for that...]:

"Stop being so easily offended, and then coming up with presumptions based on that feeling of offense.

anime = a set of TV shows and movies
anime =/= a culture

Besides, it's a collection of niche interests. Not all niche interests are everyone's interests, pretty much by definition. If you plopped me down in Akihabara I'd gladly visit the old game shops, and I'd completely ignore the maid cafes."


Many people on this forum count themselves as Otaku which is most certainly a culture, and one with huge overlap with the culture of the anime community. For the purposes of the arguments being made here, I and others are talking about this culture (anime community, not Otaku). Which is most certainly a thing. You can't have a cummunity without a culture. And who would want to be in such a community? Culture is an awesome thing and cultural distinctiveness should be held in high regard. That last sentence is a little beside the point but I find it worrying that you can be so dismissive of the culture of this community.

As for not being offended, well... In general I'm not. If I'm watching a YouTube video or reading an article unrelated to the anime community and they casually put down anime then I'm not bothered. I don't give a fuck what those people think. But I take the opinion of the people within the anime community much more seriously. What sort of a community are we if we allow people to spew hate for their fellow fans? We should take offense. That's not to say I want everyone to just be super happy all the time but there is a middle ground. There is a lot of value to be found in disagreement. For instance, we've had a few back and forths now and clearly disagree on some stuff but I don't see you as one of the people I'm talking about because I don't sense any of the hate I see from other people coming from you.

Also, I'm not a fan of the maid cafes either. Not anything against them in general, just think it would be weird and awkward, even if my Japanese were fluent. But I still love them and love the people go to them. I embrace all aspects of Otaku culture.

"So you're trying to control what opinions others express about anime? Like, you disapprove of these opinions so they shouldn't be expressed?"

Absolutely not. I'm extremely anti censorship of speech and expression. Having a problem with the opinions people express and wanting to control and ban things aren't the same thing. I think it would be better if people took a more accepting and chilled attitude to the things they aren't a fan of. And I would like to see a solidarity in the community against people who express genre/trope snobbery. Just like in real life where I think extremist groups should be free to say what they like, but I would encourage society to speak back against them. And don't mistake the idea I'm speaking about as just people's opinions. I read a comment on r/anime today that read:

"Any discussion over best girl/best boy/waifus is distasteful, and anime fans deserve to be looked down on as long as this is perpetuated."
https://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/bst0yw/trigger_ranime_with_one_sentence/eormdfh/?context=3

These people are a problem. There needs to be a greater sense of defending the community from them.

"I have friends who use the term "weeb shit" and they don't do it out of "hate", unless you think that they actually "hate" all the other things that they flame in their rough-and-tumble attitude toward life."

But there are plenty of people that do. Just look at the state of anime discussion on Twitter. That affects the culture. Been following the stuff with SAO?

"...naturally the market is going to result in there continuing to be a variety because having a diversified customer base simply makes business sense."

Big disagree. The most business senses is what makes the most money right? Pop music, Hollywood movies, AAA gaming. Made with a scientific, check-box, mass-appeal mindset. Back it up with giant spending on marketing and so people aren't even aware there is anything else to consume. The customer base is still pretty diverse but the content most certainly isn't.

"I agree that they shouldn't just bash things they don't like because that's impolite, but they should be allowed to express their opinions in civil, level-headed ways."

There's only so much civility and level-headedness you can express something like "the stuff you like is trash and you are trash for consuming it". I'm in total agreement with your general sentiment though. In many ways that's exactuly what I'm advocating for.

"More " 'normal', western stuff" like Re:Zero, Cells at Work, That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime, Yuru Camp, Pop Team Epic,..."

I never called any of those shows normie stuff. Pop Team Epic maybe because the humor feels very western compared with most of anime. Feels like something that you would find on adult swim. Which is fine. I like some stuff on there. But it does fit the mold of a show which would work with your average casual western fan. Unlike a comedy like Asobi Asobase which feels a lot more anime. But that isn't a knock on PTE or putting Asobi on a pedestal. Hopefully you understand the nuances of my opinion on this to see that.

The problem I (and others whose opinions I like to think giving more concreteness to) have isn't the shows themselves, it's attitudes that lead to comparisons many anime fans make where they seem to like the less 'anime' stuff merely because it's more western. These shows only get brought up because there are these people who hold them up as great anime while putting down the 'more anime' stuff merely because they contain anime tropes. And I know there is the argument to be made that these is no set stlye and anime is diverse. But there is still the fact that certain shows are most definitely anime and some less so. As such the distinction is valid, even if it is hard to draw a definite line. If you were to take a random person and show him Carole & Tuesday and Clannad side-by-side and ask them which one is more 'anime', you will only get one response. So the distinction is valid.

"By the way, I myself am an illustration of why your oversimplification of people's tastes doesn't work.

On one hand:
* I'm arguing against your point.
* I don't like sexual fanservice.
* I don't like Lucky Star.

On the other hand:
* I like Haruhi.
* I've argued repeatedly against Digibro's flaming of Asterisk War, and I've repeatedly asserted that Asterisk War (of all things, Asterisk War!) is actually not that bad of a show.
* I am willing to explore a giant pile of obscure anime from a decade ago that no one cares about and watch that stuff and then talk about it.

Explain *me*."


There isn't much to say. You have your preferences and opinions. I respect you because you express them well even if sometimes I think you could make more of effort to understand my thoughts rather than semantic interpretations of what I'm saying. But that's not so important because no one else has given me such good conversation on this site yet. Your large number of posts and sizable list shows me you're devoted to anime so I am more tolerant of your preferences. Actually... I mean, I'm really not bothered if anyone doesn't like fan service / moe / Lucky Star. But if they make a point of complaining about that stuff specifically, putting down others for liking it, or putting down the artistic merit of a show merely for having certain aspects, then I have a problem with that, especially if that person has shown no real investment in the community. Preferences are just that. The one anime genre I don't like is the Naruto/DBZ type of battle shounen but it's just my preference and I very rarely bring it up. Some people make it an identity to moan about moe/CGDCT etc.

Alternatively, make a COMPREHENSIVE list of all the things that you value for their being not "western" or whatever. Don't just define your sense of community by being unlike something else.

(And don't just say "cute girls and fanservice" and leave it at that; I can get "cute girls and fanservice" at a strip club in Wyoming.)


I think you're far to focused on trying get a definitive distinction, but it's not necessary. However, for fun, I will list everything that I think anime does in a way that is different and I prefer from western media:
1. Fan service. Let's get the elephant in the room out of the way first. I think we've had the discussion about this before. Regardless of the merits of either way of doing it, anime definitely does sexuality different from western media. (In general, of course all of this is speaking in general)
2. Moe/CGDCT. Do you know there is no English word for the emotion you get when you find something cute? I don't know if there is a Japanese word for it, but I do know a Japanese word that is relevent here (skillful segway btw), and that is...
3. Iyashikei. Show me the Non Non Biyori of the west. I'll wait.
4. Combining (the western judgemnts of-) high brow and low brow. NGE. Giant sci-fi robot fights and slow paced character-focused themes of depression and isolation in one show.
5. Young characters, adult themes. NGE agian.
6. I wasn't going to say it but fuck it. Lolis. I won't debate the merits of them but it is most certainly something that seperates anime from every other medium except literature before about the mid 20th century.

I could probably go on but you see how it is so hard to quantify this stuff. But again, I don't think it's necessary. That was fun though.

[EDIT: Putting all the quotes in bold was not a good look. Will take too long to change now but I won't be doing that again lol.]
Modified by YossaRedMage, May 25, 2:06 PM
Current: Shield Hero, Midara na Ao-chan, Shoumetsu Toshi.
Weekly: Sounan Desu ka, Tejina-senpai, Dumbbell Nan Kilo Moteru, Miru Tights, Kawaikereba, Takagi-san 2.
Recently finished: HitoriBocchi (6), Nobunaga's Young Bride (5), Amazing Stranger (7), Dororo (7), Senko-san (6), Gunjou no Magmel (4), Senryuu Shoujo (6).

Check out my blog at http://yossanime.com/
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May 25, 2:03 PM

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CHC said:
I begin to understand all those confused polemics against the Western taste as a veiled struggle for recognition by moe fans: since moe has a more established status in Japanese otaku fandom, while it is less so in the West, so "more anime" becomes for them a coded term for "moe", and "Western" a coded term for "non-moe". It is so formulated to push the idea that "what we're watching is more authentically anime".

I mean, I would defend moe aesthetics (but not necessarily how every single moe fan consumes it), but I don't see why we must see them as more "authentic" in any essentialising fashion, nor do I see why we should care about authenticity at all. Anime fads come and go. Throughout the 60s to 80s it was sci-fi and mecha which dominated the fandom, and now they are seen as "non-anime looking"? That's way too dumb.


I think there's a difference between saying something is more 'anime' vs saying it is more authentic. The use of the word authentic comes off a value judgment. I don't think any anime (Japanese originating animation) is intrinsically worth more or less based on how western it is. Others might have said differently, and it's possible some stuff I've said could lead to the conlusion that is what I thought, but it's not the case.

There are, however, people who do feel the opposite. That the less 'anime' something is, the less [EDIT: More, not less] worth it has. A good example is how many people on r/anime hate on Shield Hero for having lots of cute girl characters and that some of them are lolis. There are lots of good reasons not to like Shield Hero, don't get me wrong, but it's like these people were suddenly reminded they're watching anime and were like "wtf lolis!? in anime!?". This relates all the way back to the OP. These people usually usually spew their opinion with a certain amount of hate for fans of moe in particular. Which leads to my next point.

You're right about it being a struggle for recognition by moe fans in some sense. But it's not just moe. There are kind of two issues at play here which are connected but getting confused and muddying the waters.

One is how people in the community perceive anime that have this very 'anime' asthetic.

The other issue is this:
The people I spoke about earlier that have a distain for certain aspects of anime tend to be newer fans that bring an attitude of judgment from outside the community and then spread hate within it. These people are more likely to like the less 'anime' stuff. The worry is that, in time, the anime asthetic that a great deal of fans love will be replaced by shows which are more palletable for the western mainstream. Not only would some fans feel alienated by the community, but anime would lose it's sylistic distinctiveness.

As a footnote, I wasn't really happy with how I used the word 'moe' in this comment and not sure how to use it moving forward. Looking up the definition didn't really help. I think I'm talking about more than 'cuteness' so using 'moe' kind of seems like a simplification.
Modified by YossaRedMage, May 26, 5:28 AM
Current: Shield Hero, Midara na Ao-chan, Shoumetsu Toshi.
Weekly: Sounan Desu ka, Tejina-senpai, Dumbbell Nan Kilo Moteru, Miru Tights, Kawaikereba, Takagi-san 2.
Recently finished: HitoriBocchi (6), Nobunaga's Young Bride (5), Amazing Stranger (7), Dororo (7), Senko-san (6), Gunjou no Magmel (4), Senryuu Shoujo (6).

Check out my blog at http://yossanime.com/
Lastest post: Morality-Based Artistic Critique is Bunk, Part 2
 
May 25, 2:54 PM

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@YossaRedMage

YossaRedMage said:
Many people on this forum count themselves as Otaku which is most certainly a culture, and one with huge overlap with the culture of the anime community. For the purposes of the arguments being made here, I and others are talking about this culture (anime community, not Otaku). Which is most certainly a thing. You can't have a cummunity without a culture. And who would want to be in such a community? Culture is an awesome thing and cultural distinctiveness should be held in high regard. That last sentence is a little beside the point but I find it worrying that you can be so dismissive of the culture of this community.
1. The labels "otaku" and "anime community" (and also "anime fandom"/"anime fan" and "weeb"/"weeaboo") aren't quite distinctively separatable. Aside from "weeb"/"weeaboo" which has a negative connotation (and amusingly, not "otaku"), the others are just general terms here in the west for "people who have some interest in anime".

2. How do you find any part of the text you replied to "dismissive of the culture of this community"?

I don't dispute that there are cultural elements that anime fans tend to be more fond of, but I also recognize that these elements are often niche interests that only some people like but others don't care for. For example, I care about J-pop/anisong, and don't really care much about cosplay, while some other people feel the opposite way about these two things. Even liking anime itself is not necessarily something that a person in this (meta-)fandom enjoys; some people only enjoy manga and not anime.

What truly unites this community is a common interest in elements of Japanese pop culture, most commonly anime. Beyond that, the anime fandom is actually a bunch of smaller fandoms, which don't necessarily see eye to eye on any part of their taste in entertainment, but work together out of convenience because it's easier to make stuff happen under a larger banner, and there's a lot of people who are fans of multiple parts of this metafandom.

And the reason this has (or appears to have, at least) a "culture" is because of this unification, which often brings these niche interests together into the same space, physically and online. (But of course there are also smaller groupings that exist which only serve a subset of these niche interests -- for example, there's at least one website that caters only to fans of dubs.)

You say you "embrace all aspects of Otaku culture" but how do you "love them" when you don't go to a maid cafe because for you it's "weird and awkward"? Like you I also think they're awkward too and I don't much care for them but just like you I don't object to their existence. I don't see much of a difference between the actions we'd take in response to passing by a maid cafe; we'd both just walk past it and do something else.

YossaRedMage said:
I read a comment on r/anime today that read:

"Any discussion over best girl/best boy/waifus is distasteful, and anime fans deserve to be looked down on as long as this is perpetuated."
https://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/bst0yw/trigger_ranime_with_one_sentence/eormdfh/?context=3

These people are a problem. There needs to be a greater sense of defending the community from them.
Did you even read the OP? The thread title is "Trigger /r/anime with one sentence", it's flaired "Satire", and the OP text suggests that this thread could produce some laughs.

Citing this is like citing The Onion. (In other words, citing a joke as an serious source.)

YossaRedMage said:
Been following the stuff with SAO?
SAO has an extensive hatedom because it became a meme to hate SAO, basically, and now there are people hating on SAO because they've been informed of various reasons that it's reportedly bad and just cite those same reasons. It's sorta unique in this regard, honestly.

YossaRedMage said:
Pop Team Epic maybe because the humor feels very western compared with most of anime. Feels like something that you would find on adult swim.
I'm actually pretty surprised that you'd regard Pop Team Epic as the most "western" of those shows since in my opinion it's the least "western" due to its very unusual visual style, which makes it very much not "normie stuff".

(Which also goes to show that there are different ideas of what is/isn't "western". Much less any broad categorization that is feasibly possible. Meanwhile Evangelion, which you cited repeatedly as something that the fandom is in danger of not appreciating anymore, shows up regularly on westerners' rec lists.)

YossaRedMage said:
The problem I (and others whose opinions I like to think giving more concreteness to) have isn't the shows themselves, it's attitudes that lead to comparisons many anime fans make where they seem to like the less 'anime' stuff merely because it's more western.
I've seen some anime fans putting down other anime fans for being "casuals", "noobs", or otherwise inexperienced with the medium, but the way this ends up happening is not on the lines of some arbitrary standards of "western"-ness -- rather, it's just divided up on how much stuff that's not much talked about outside of the fandom has one seen, and increasingly these days, how much one is familiar with the fandom's memes.

Ironically, me with my pile of obscure shows doesn't "get me very far" since it's actually based on knowing what to talk about. Since I don't follow seasonals, I have little to say.

YossaRedMage said:
These shows only get brought up because there are these people who hold them up as great anime while putting down the 'more anime' stuff merely because they contain anime tropes.
I've never heard people complain much about mono no aware or iyashikei, so apparently it's not about "anime tropes", but just about specific tropes, some of which just happen to be more prevalent in anime than in other mediums.

(But it's entirely possible to have a motive of hating on a trope for reasons unrelated to its association with anime.)

YossaRedMage said:
If you were to take a random person and show him Carole & Tuesday and Clannad side-by-side and ask them which one is more 'anime', you will only get one response.
Having seen neither show aside from pictures, I'd agree.

But even if I saw the shows I'd still agree but it's only because of the art style.

I think what you call "anime" as a descriptor (and not just a medium label) is actually a vague collection of tropes that I might call "stereotypically weebish" for lack of a better term, and I do in fact think it's unfortunate that there isn't a better term for it, but...okay, let's actually just look at your list:

YossaRedMage,_albeit_truncated said:
1. Fan service.
2. Moe/CGDCT.
3. Iyashikei.
4. Combining (the western judgemnts of-) high brow and low brow.
5. Young characters, adult themes.
6. Lolis.
#1, #2, #3, and frequently also #5 and #6 (since the term has multiple definitions, I'll interpret "lolis" here to mean "cute little girls with possible elements of sexualization"), are pretty specifically tied to certain genres of anime. Heck, #3 is basically an entire genre itself (though genre labels are not mutually exclusive). #2 also largely wasn't much of a thing before the mid 00s, despite the fact that a ton of anime series were made before then.

So your using the term "anime" to mean a palette composed of these things really isn't accurate at all. It's as stereotyping of anime as those people who dismiss shows based on these same factors. And it's just as inaccurate.

This might very well be what's "wrong" with your argument. You're taking these rather specific elements and basically saying that the anime fandom needs to crusade against people who trash-talk these things, so you're basically stealing a larger banner for a subset of niche interests and trying to drag everyone along with this by trying to conjure up (or hijack) a collective sense of offendedness/protectiveness.

If you want to push back against "elitists" or self-appointed guardians-of-the-highbrow putting such elements down, I think it'd make more sense to simply stress "there's nothing wrong with this" in the face of criticisms, and continue to appreciate what you like. Rather than misrepresenting them as the forces of "western" influence and misrepresenting your position as all of "anime".

YossaRedMage said:
I think you're far to focused on trying get a definitive distinction, but it's not necessary.
Actually, it IS necessary, because you had basically been just speaking about a vague feeling based on being unlike something else, which didn't really say much about what the thing that you care about is.
Modified by GlennMagusHarvey, May 25, 2:59 PM
 
May 25, 3:31 PM

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@GlennMagusHarvey

I feel you may be oversimplifying a bit, we aren't caliming that "western fans are like X", but talking about a specific group within the western fandom.
OF COURSE a big crowd of the western fandom likes genuine "anime" stuff, otherwise this website wouldn't be here.

That being said
More " 'normal', western stuff" like Re:Zero, Cells at Work, That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime, Yuru Camp, Pop Team Epic,...


I would argue otherwise.
Re:Zero is a subversion of the isekai genre while still being an isekai by itself. It's a story that could only come to be because of Narou and it's culture.

Hataraku Saibou, in a similar way, is full of anime tropes and it's straight about it.

TenSura is a Narou Isekai that directly references anime, light novels and JRPG (Mainly Dragon Quest).

Yuru Camp is a moe iyashikei, that's pretty anime for me.

Pop Team Epic, like i've discussed in my podcast, is almost fully japanese appeal, not even anime appeal, japanese appeal. The direct references it uses are anime, japanese games and obscure japanese references.

"Western", the way we're using, doesn't mean "liked by westerns", because really, which anime isn't?
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May 25, 3:36 PM

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thewiru said:
More " 'normal', western stuff" like Re:Zero, Cells at Work, That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime, Yuru Camp, Pop Team Epic,...


I would argue otherwise.
Re:Zero is a subversion of the isekai genre while still being an isekai by itself. It's a story that could only come to be because of Narou and it's culture.

Hataraku Saibou, in a similar way, is full of anime tropes and it's straight about it.

TenSura is a Narou Isekai that directly references anime, light novels and JRPG (Mainly Dragon Quest).

Yuru Camp is a moe iyashikei, that's pretty anime for me.

Pop Team Epic, like i've discussed in my podcast, is almost fully japanese appeal, not even anime appeal, japanese appeal. The direct references it uses are anime, japanese games and obscure japanese references.

"Western", the way we're using, doesn't mean "liked by westerns", because really, which anime isn't?
FYI that statement was facetious/sarcastic (which @YossaRedMage correctly picked up on). Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Incidentally, YossaRedMage said that Pop Team Epic was the most "western"-flavored of those shows, while I agree with you in thinking that it's the least "western"-flavored.
 
May 25, 3:39 PM

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I mean, at the end of the day we really aren't being normative "about the way the community should be", but yes, we are talking about "how the community shouldn't be".

If i were to boil it down to one phrase: "I would like that certain sectors of the community didn't try to sanitize parts of the community that they don't like/are controversial in order to please an outside viewer. You don't have to like them, but you should accept is as a core part of it."

If i were to be normative, i would argue that "All of the community should embrace such aspects, specially elitists. If it brings a hateful gaze from the outside viewer, so be it, it strenghtens the community identity".
But that's not nescessary, simply the community not shunning itself would already be enough.
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May 25, 6:35 PM

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thewiru said:
"I would like that certain sectors of the community didn't try to sanitize parts of the community that they don't like/are controversial in order to please an outside viewer. You don't have to like them, but you should accept is as a core part of it."
Except for the "core part" bit, I agree.

It would be misrepresenting the medium to say (for example) that anime isn't fanservicey, and misrepresenting the fandom to say that there aren't people who enjoy fanservice.

However it's also the case that one can enjoy anime without watching (to use the same example) fanservicey anime, if one doesn't want to watch them. While one will miss out some of the fandom chatter, that could be said about any aspect one doesn't like.

Perhaps we'd disagree with that there, if you feel that that would mean not getting the full anime experience, because I would call that simply not getting the full anime fandom experience, and say that that's a negligible (not necessarily in proportion, but in enhancing one's enjoyment) part of it.
 
May 25, 11:15 PM

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@YossaRedMage

OK, moe does have a lineage that can stretch back to the 80s or even to the 70s. (The familiar story that it started off from grown-up men reading shoujo manga.) So I'm supportive of the claim that moe is a significant part of anime culture and anime history, as opposed to some of the people who try to suggest "anime was good before moe came in." But that is not the same with the idea that "moe is what essentially defines the media", or "the more moe, the more it looks anime". So trying to substitute a particular subset of anime styles for the idea of anime is already an illegitimate sleight of hand. It's like saying "the more white you are, the more American you are", except it is less politically problematic because no one care about "anime supremacism".

I don't think there's any particularly "Western" about new fans not having instant crush on moe. It's not like cute girl anime in Japan has a mainstream status either. It's only mainstream within the otaku fandom. But anime and manga audienceship is a much larger thing than otaku fandom. Japanese people who love Dragonball and One Piece will not necessarily have good thing to say about Love Live.

I'm all for introducing people to good moe shows. But I'm not for reducing the vast internal diversity of anime into one particular type of aesthetics. Nor do I think the right way to defend moe is to say they are "more anime".

--

As for the discussion about defining anime in terms of style: I picked up on your limited experience with anime not because I'm smug about spending a lot of time on anime, it was because you were so confident about the issue when you probably haven't even watched any Yuasa's show, Panty & Stocking, shows from the 60s-80s, Osamu Tezuka's works (hey, he is the Father of anime), World Masterpiece Theater, etc. - some of the best counter-example to your proposition. I don't really think there can be any interesting conservation on this topic if either of the two parties are not knowledgeable about the internal diversity of the medium. I'm not interested in how deeply you engage with anime. What matters in this context is the breadth of your experience.

I'm not interested in discussing the definition of classical music with people who have only listen to a few pieces of classical works and think Bach, Mozart and Beethoven represent the entirety of classical music while knowing absolutely nothing about Schoenberg and Philip Glass. The same goes for defining anime. I don't care if it is how laymen use the terms. You can use the term however you like, but don't pretend that has any objectivity.
 
May 25, 11:50 PM

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@thewiru

The definition would be a taste that can only see quality in anime when it is trying to be "western" as opposed as "having the strenghts of it's media".

TW, AKIRA is like pretty much THE definition of ""Western", "academic", "Hollywood", or "do not look like anime"".


It's not a definition that sheds any kind of clarity on the issue. You simply feel that way about those shows and you think it is automatically clear what those predicates mean in your own usage.

I don't think Akira is "Western", "academic", "Hollywood", or "do not look like anime" at all, because I don't even know what that means to say it is "Western", "academic", "Hollywood", or "do not look like anime". It's just a bunch of arbitrary adjectives being thrown at a show without describing anything you can observe in the show itself. It's gibberish.

You're not defining those terms just because those terms feel meaningful to you.

The only reason why you insist on being so vague and confused is that you're trying to say "moe anime is more anime than non-moe anime" but subconsciously you're aware how indefensible such a proposition is because you probably know some obvious counter-examples like Gintama, Mob Psycho, Dragon Ball, Rurouni Kenshin, Slam Dunk, etc.

It's not just me nitpicking your choice of words. Your words simply convey no coherent idea. An incoherent statement isn't even true or false, it's just meaningless.

There is already 3 pages of discussion and you still couldn't come up with any sort of clarity. I don't think it is going anywhere.
 
May 26, 12:24 AM

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thewiru said:

If i were to boil it down to one phrase: "I would like that certain sectors of the community didn't try to sanitize parts of the community that they don't like/are controversial in order to please an outside viewer. You don't have to like them, but you should accept is as a core part of it."

It is something I don't have a problem with, if it's taken at its face value. But all those detours you took labelling shows as "Western", "Hollywood", "academic", "doesn't look like anime" without making sense of those terms are just pretty bad.

You're simply saying otaku should be confident about their taste. But then, many of the "elitists" you have been targeting at may not even have an "otaku taste" that's close to yours. And you're judging them based on whether they recommend moe shows.

I also don't think it is a matter of faithfully representing the fandom when it comes to recommending anime. I recommend shows that I think is good. I don't have to pick up an iconic fanservice show like To Love-Ru on my recommendation list just because it is big in the fandom while I think it is shit. Recommendation list is never about representing the fandom. Go read about film lists like the Sight & Sound. It's all about the classics and they don't give a fuck about the Lord of the Ring or Star Wars. It's about what critics and filmmakers who works in the industry for years, having seen a wide range of stuffs, deem as the best films, not the most popular or most fashionable. You can disagree with their judgment, but you'll never convince them to recommend films based on how well it represents the popular fandom. Of course you can make your own "nerd-pride" version of film list which consists indiscriminately of all the teen favourites from Avengers to Twilight, and absolutely nothing before 1970s. That's cool too. Be proud of your nerdy hobby. But I don't think you have any legitimate reason to claim Avengers is "more cinematic" or "more filmic" than Vertigo. (If any one thinks that way he is kidding himself.) Or people who love Vertigo but don't give a fuck about superhero blockbuster are trying to look respectable to their friends who read literature. Who are the people literary readers trying to impress by recommending Shakespeare and Tolstoy? Does Hunger Game look more like novel than War and Peace? Should I put 50 Shades of Grey instead of Odyssey on a book recommendation list to avoid being too "academic"?
Modified by CHC, May 26, 1:03 AM
 
May 26, 12:33 AM

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>have Killing Bites in your favorite list
>want to be an anime gatekeeper

get the hell out of here, kid
 
May 26, 6:12 AM

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thewiru said:
I will also add in response to @Yudina that while, yes, NGE influences are western, NGE wouldn't be something that would be spontaneously made in the west.
And while there's no discussion NGE is mainstream in Japan, i wouldn't be 100% sure about the west. I would say that most people most likely have heard about it, but not as many have watched it, NGE is not nearly as mainstream in the west as it is in Japan.
Except that wasn't even the point that was being made. The point was that if anime became more "mainstream" and embraced "Western norms," there wouldn't be any NGEs that were made. At all. Japan or otherwise.

NGE is both mainstream and inextricably "Western." I don't know what mainstream definition people are going by, but if it aired on Toonami in the 90s, it was about as mainstream as anime could get at the time.

Again, I'm just convinced that there's some weird animosity towards "the West," but no real understanding of what that means.
Modified by Yudina, May 26, 6:15 AM
 
May 26, 7:23 AM

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Vorpality said:
>have Killing Bites in your favorite list
>want to be an anime gatekeeper

get the hell out of here, kid


Not sure who you're talking to but Killing Bites is awesome. If it isn't high-brow enough for you well that's your problem. I enjoyed the hell out of it.

@GlennMagusHarvey
@CFC

I still think there are some big misunderstandings going on here. It's the problem with trying to convery complex ideas over a forum instead of spoken conversation. The thing is a lot of what you guys are saying is 100% accurate, but also not refuting any of what we are saying. I'll be using 'we' to represent not only my and thewiru's thoughts, which seem to be in 100% agreement (though should feel free to challenge me on anything he disagrees with of course), but also the many people that no doubt feel the same way but choose not to spend time in conversation over it.

The following quotes are all from Glenn, I'll reply to CFC's posts later this evening or tomorrow when I have the time.

Did you even read the OP? The thread title is "Trigger /r/anime with one sentence".


First, his comment was a reply to a reply. It came off as commentary on the triggering opinion rather than his actually playing along with the theme of the post. Secondly, the vast majority of people in there were just using it as an excuse to vent toxic opinions that they 100% agree with anyway. Thirdly, even if he was joking, and even if he doesn't believe what he says, the sentiment is a common one within the fandom. The example may not have been the best (though I still think it's a perfectly fine example and that he believed every word) but the mindset it represents is real and the basis for many of the prejudices within the fandom that we are trying to address.

2. How do you find any part of the text you replied to "dismissive of the culture of this community"?


You made the blanket statement, "anime =/= culture", which, regardless of the context, comes off as dismissive of the culture of anime fandom (the community). However, I'm sure what you meant had more nuance to it within the context and I probably took it more badly than I needed to. I think we could all do with being more careful about how we word ourselves and how we interpret others. As for interpreting others, about those misunderstandings... (That segway though [EDIT: Dammit! this was a good segway before I changed a few things around in this post...])

You say you "embrace all aspects of Otaku culture" but how do you "love them" when you don't go to a maid cafe because for you it's "weird and awkward"? Like you I also think they're awkward too and I don't much care for them but just like you I don't object to their existence. I don't see much of a difference between the actions we'd take in response to passing by a maid cafe; we'd both just walk past it and do something else.


Getting kind of semantic here. Maybe using the word 'love' gave the wrong impression. I have an affection for them because I feel a kinship with the people that do like them. I don't love them in the way I love the elements of Otaku culture I actually engage with, sure. But I think I hold them in higher regard than merely 'not objecting to their existence'. I would be sad if they went away because they have a place within the culture I love. Also, while I would personally find the experience weird and awkward, I see that as my problem. In the same way I wish I could enjoy battle shounen and tokusatsu more, I recognize that my inability to enjoy certain genres is down to prejudices within my mindset. It is entirely my fault that I can't enjoy certain things. I'm at peace with it, and I certainly don't berate myself for it, though I sometimes feel a little sad when I see shounen fans get really hyped for a fight scene and I can't relate.

Likewise, if someone can't enjoy moe or fan service in anime, it is their own prejudices, their problem. I wish more people would adopt this attitude instead of hating on fans. When people say they couldn't enjoy a masterpiece like Monogatari because of the fan service and loli characters, I feel sorry for them. But if they say other people shouldn't enjoy it for those reasons, that is a big deal and I have a huge problem with that mindset.

SAO has an extensive hatedom because it became a meme to hate SAO, basically, and now...


I was referring to the censoring of sexual content from future instalments of the series and upcoming games. I haven't seen SAO but it is clearly a pillar of anime. A monument in many ways. It is important. The identitiy of anime is closely tied to that series, for better or for worse (I have no opinion on the matter). I don't want a debate on the merits of how fan service is used on SAO or how - apparently - the girls only serve as reward for when the male hero does achieves stuff (because that's nothing like real life of course...). I mean it sounds like a traditional tale of a male hero who gets the girl after beating the bad guy. I will argue tenaciously in favour of that trope if you let me but lets not open that can of worms. The merits of it aren't important. What's important is that these changes to a series that has so much importance to the cultural identitiy of anime are 99% the influence of western ideals (worse than that, twitter ideology which doesn't even represent what the average person wants). It is literally westernification in action.

All that is what I was referring to when I brought up recent news about SAO.

Lost Pause did a good video about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LkQGDINV0o

I know there is mixed opinions about him and his style. I actually stopped watching his meme videos a while ago because it got annoying. But he is always on point when it comes to these subjects.

Having seen neither show aside from pictures, I'd agree.

But even if I saw the shows I'd still agree but it's only because of the art style.


It's way more than the art style. It might be better I don't get started on Carole & Tuesday too much but... I don't know. It's a really good example. I won't spoil anything but, in addition to the art style, the world of the show is filled with English text and there is a very western feel to the presentation of characters and the story (this is just a feeling, hard to explain, but it's valid, if you go on /a/ you will see the word 'westaboo' thrown around a lot with this show). But the real nail in the coffin for me is the insert songs. You have these characters that are speaking with Japanese voices and then when it comes to the characters singing songs in the show, they open their mouths and a native English speaking voice is heard singing the songs in English.

It feels like watching a western show, made in the west, with Japanese dubs. Cheap Japanese dubs that didn't even dub the songs. C&T was clearly made with the English voices in mind, and English audiences in mind. There is very little Japanese about it. It's what I imagine it would be like for a Japanese person to watch anime with English dub and Japanese subtitles. Think about that.

Now look. The show just isn't for me for many reasons. I'm sure, for the people that like it, it's a great show. But a large amount of the people holding it up as a masterpiece and creaming themselves over it are doing so purely for it's westernness and it's lack of anime tropes and art style. If it kept all the elements it has already but both the characters were moe lolis with big Clannad eyes? It wouldn't get anywhere near the level of praise it is receiving. The mentality that leads many to praise C&T is fundamentally anti-anime.

To reiterate. I don't think it is a bad show. It's just not for me. But by raising it up on a pedastal for all the elements it possesses with make it less anime-ish, people are indirectly putting down the shows which are more anime-ish. They are saying that traditional anime tropes make something less worthy. Surely, we can all agree on the notion that tropes are not inherently bad and can be done well or done badly? This is a concept which has spread around quite a lot now.

I have tons to say regarding your last couple of quote/reply pairs but limited on time right now. I want to sit down and have a good session with a VN today and still have a few things to do before that. Going to get difficult to keep up lol!
Current: Shield Hero, Midara na Ao-chan, Shoumetsu Toshi.
Weekly: Sounan Desu ka, Tejina-senpai, Dumbbell Nan Kilo Moteru, Miru Tights, Kawaikereba, Takagi-san 2.
Recently finished: HitoriBocchi (6), Nobunaga's Young Bride (5), Amazing Stranger (7), Dororo (7), Senko-san (6), Gunjou no Magmel (4), Senryuu Shoujo (6).

Check out my blog at http://yossanime.com/
Lastest post: Morality-Based Artistic Critique is Bunk, Part 2
 
May 26, 8:40 AM

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@YossaRedMage

HEADLINE

I still think there are some big misunderstandings going on here. It's the problem with trying to convery complex ideas over a forum instead of spoken conversation.
I don't think that's the problem; I think the disagreement is that you feel (what I'd think is an inordinate) fondness for a specific set of interactions involved in being an anime fan and are defensive about them in the face of potential change, while I don't feel this way.
Maybe using the word 'love' gave the wrong impression. I have an affection for them because I feel a kinship with the people that do like them. I don't love them in the way I love the elements of Otaku culture I actually engage with, sure. But I think I hold them in higher regard than merely 'not objecting to their existence'. I would be sad if they went away because they have a place within the culture I love. Also, while I would personally find the experience weird and awkward, I see that as my problem. In the same way I wish I could enjoy battle shounen and tokusatsu more, I recognize that my inability to enjoy certain genres is down to prejudices within my mindset. It is entirely my fault that I can't enjoy certain things. I'm at peace with it, and I certainly don't berate myself for it, though I sometimes feel a little sad when I see shounen fans get really hyped for a fight scene and I can't relate.


I don't think it's a misunderstanding at this point; I think we're just using repeated elaborations of our disagreement.

Fundamentally, you see the anime fandom as a cohesive whole, which you are (or aspire to be) part of, while I do not see the anime fandom as a cohesive whole (rather, I see it as a grouping of a variety of interests, out of social convenience), and have varying opinions on different aspects of it.

Building on top of this, you're sensitive to things you perceive as injurious of the fandom as a whole, and get defensive about it, while I don't see it this way so naturally I don't.

OTHER DETAILS

First, his comment was a reply to a reply. It came off as commentary on the triggering opinion rather than his actually playing along with the theme of the post. Secondly, the vast majority of people in there were just using it as an excuse to vent toxic opinions that they 100% agree with anyway. Thirdly, even if he was joking, and even if he doesn't believe what he says, the sentiment is a common one within the fandom.
How do you know the "vast majority" of the people there "100% agree with" what they posted anyway? It's a satire thread and you simply can't tell confidently either way.

Even I was considering posting there after you showed me that thread, and had I posted it would have been some sort of inflammatory opinion like "all subs are horrible" or "all dubs are great", neither of which would have accurately represented my actual opinion but would have (had the thread had fewer comments) been effective in turning heads. And the state purpose of this thread was to post inflammatory things to turn heads, NOT to accurately represent one's opinions.

The only reason you think it's true and makes you concerned is because you're more sensitive to this opinion.

You made the blanket statement, "anime =/= culture", which, regardless of the context, comes off as dismissive of the culture of anime fandom (the community).
The noun "anime" is not culture by itself.

The noun modifier (or adjective, whichever term you prefer) "anime" can be used to modify something, hence the term "anime fandom", which is a group of people with cultural elements.

It's way more than the art style.
To you it's more than the art style; to me it's not.

the world of the show is filled with English text and there is a very western feel to the presentation of characters and the story (this is just a feeling, hard to explain, but it's valid, if you go on /a/ you will see the word 'westaboo' thrown around a lot with this show).
I don't doubt the feeling and I can see how it arises, but it's a feeling that results from a certain set of traits in a show (such as what you mentioned), which may be more common for shows from a certain geographic origin but is not inseparably tied to that geographic origin.

It feels like watching a western show, made in the west, with Japanese dubs. Cheap Japanese dubs that didn't even dub the songs. C&T was clearly made with the English voices in mind, and English audiences in mind. There is very little Japanese about it. It's what I imagine it would be like for a Japanese person to watch anime with English dub and Japanese subtitles. Think about that.
Your saying this to me unfortunate probably doesn't mean much since I'm quite fond of English dubs in the first place, and even if I don't watch stuff with English dubs, I'm still half-headvoicing the characters.

But a large amount of the people holding it up as a masterpiece and creaming themselves over it are doing so purely for it's westernness and it's lack of anime tropes and art style.
So here's another little aspect where you and I differ, beyond our ideas about the anime fandom as a whole.

The first time I heard of Carole & Tuesday is when you mentioned it to me. Why? Because I largely ignore the fandom. I find that better for my enjoyment -- for helping me gain a personal relationship to the shows I watch. I try to ignore fan opinions on shows (though sometimes it's hard, but I do still intend to watch FranXX regardless), and sometimes I actually end up watching a show just because I'm sick of hearing people bash it without an opinion of my own (something I did with SAO 2, albeit not SAO 1 since I dropped it after the first episode for reasons unrelated to the usual opinions).

I prefer to form my own opinions, preferably independent of the fandom.

This isn't directly related to the topic of our discussion so far, but is basically a useful response to the feeling of "I can't control this fandom to do what I want it to do and not do what I don't want it to not do."

moe lolis with big Clannad eyes
Sidenote: Clannad's art style has problems. The mouths are too high. There are better examples of moë.

SIDENOTE

Lost Pause
Oh good gosh Lost Pause is annoying. I remember my first time watching him and that was his first Gurumin video and he was trying wayyyy too hard to be stylish by being loud and clogging the video with overdoing his expressions (which annoyed me) and then he tried some dumb sexual jokes about the main character (which also annoyed me).

Seems your video doesn't start as annoyingly as that one does, but I'll watch it later when I have the time.
 
May 26, 8:40 AM

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Posts: 496
OK, lemme state that again: I rate K-ON a 10. 9 for Madoka, Euphorium, and Little Witch Academia. I'm all for dispelling "moephobia" within some part of the anime fandom. I don't think there should any shame around adult consumption of kiddy aesthetics per se. I still love watching Sailor Moon to this date. After all, the people who created Sailor Moon with such a passion are also adults. It's ridiculous to claim they are all pedophile.

Moephobia has more thing to do with toxic masculinity - the idea that man cannot into cute things like a woman does. I don't deny that there is things like loli hentai but to say moe aesthetics is necessarily bounded up with pedophilia is just like saying liking Hello Kitty automatically means you're into bestiality.

But I don't think this issue has anything to do with "academic", "Hollywood", or whether anti-moe is anti-anime, whether more moe means more anime. If you have to frame it as a Western vs. Eastern thing, it seems to me the only sensible thing is to say Western society has more moral panic about pedophilia and Western men tend to feel more uncomfortable with their soft, feminine side.

But then it is not about more masculine shows like Cowboy bebop or GitS being more "Western"-oriented. In fact most animators don't even know or care that much about the Western fandom. Testosterone-filled shows have as much appeal in Japan as they do in the West.

What is problematic about the whole way OP deal this issue is essentially by gatekeeping. All that confused labeling about a show being "not anime-looking" only serve to hijacking the entire fandom with diverse taste and interests. If you want to justify moe anime, just show them good moe shows like K-ON and LWA and explain to people what's good about them. "It looks very anime", "it looks what every otaku likes in Japan", "it has a lot of common anime tropes in it" - things like that aren't good reasons why people should care about it, and it is absolutely not cool when you label their taste as "Western", "academic", "Hollywood" or whatever terms that purports to suggest that they are not the "real" fans. I love shows like 3-gatsu no Lion which is pretty much ignored under the shadow of all those seasonal waifu wars. I don't think 3-gatsu no Lion is any less anime than any other anime, whatever that means.
 
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