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TBH, we should have more of and "Anime counter-culture"

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#1
May 19, 1:10 PM

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I feel like i'm going to regret this choice of words...
(A lot of this thread is based on the videos "Elitists: Your Credibility Lies At the Vanguard" and "Anime As Counter-Culture" by Digibro, so i would recommend watching them, they're good videos)


I don't think that we as a community make a great advertisement of what we enjoy. Recently i was in a thread on /a/ that had one of those "Essential Anime" charts. As most of these charts made by westerners are simply circlejerking "anime that doens't look like anime" and, more specifically, "anime that looks" western and that was problem the 20th chart of that kind i had seen, i left a a comment of displeasement.

My view of it is that instead of being an Aristotelic Aristocracy, moving the community to a better place, elitists on the anime community, quoting myself, "Just prefer to advertise stuff that looks like normie stuff so their academic friends in cinema, literature or etc might take them seriously" instead of embrancing a counter-cultural identity.

I notice this here a lot, that the community is filled with an underdog mentality for simply liking anime, as in "Yeah, i recognize it is a lower form of art and that the simple thought of talking without shame about it is shameful".
I'm not asking for anyone to start praising bad or mediocre seasonals, but rather that the community would start celebrating some things that are unique to the medium instead of using "how western and non-anime it is" as a quality measurement.

I'm not asking much, is just that i'm asking the "should-be-aristocracy" of the community to start acting like valuing themselves like consumers of any other medium rather than subalterns.
Modified by thewiru, May 19, 1:52 PM
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#2
May 19, 1:14 PM
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supremacist thinking leads to hate and in extreme cases killings/violence, you want a mass shooter in the name of Light Yagami belief of the end justify the means for example?

on a less serious example, are you advocating for anime gatekeeping
 
#3
May 19, 1:26 PM

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deg said:
supremacist thinking leads to hate and in extreme cases killings/violence, you want a mass shooter in the name of Light Yagami belief of the end justify the means for example?

on a less serious example, are you advocating for anime gatekeeping


Wasn't there a controvery one time where a group hijacked a plane and refered to themselves as "The Joe of Tomorrow"? I remember reading about it once.

As if i'm gatekeeping... Yes, perhaps, but in the end i don't feel like i'm doing anything wrong, quite the opposite actually.
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#4
May 19, 1:29 PM

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I'm gonna be honest when I first read the title and saw your profile I thought "Wtf this guy used to make sense." Not the best choice of words indeed.

I agree with you in the sense that, yes usually more western/non-anime looking stuff will get recommended to nonfans. But I'm not convinced that it's because of some sort of inferiority complex admitting that they consume a lower form of entertainment. I think that it's because fans simply don't want to go to all the trouble of making a nonfan get accustomed to aspects that are uniquely anime but they still want to share their hobbies so they find shows that are more accessible to western fans. And that's fine really, if they desire to get into the more "anime" shows, they can do so themselves.

Also how is it even gatekeeping? I'd say it's the exact opposite. I'm confused.
Modified by Orhunaa, May 19, 1:35 PM
 
#5
May 19, 1:34 PM
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thewiru said:

As if i'm gatekeeping... Yes, perhaps, but in the end i don't feel like i'm doing anything wrong, quite the opposite actually.


can you give examples of this "supremacist" anime in your mind?

but for now im not convince with this since i see hardcore fandoms as some modern tribalism "us vs them" mentality and we got plenty of that already inside the anime fandom alone so good luck even trying to unite everyone here under your list of supreme anime

Orhunaa said:

Also how is it even gatekeeping? I'd say it's the exact opposite. I'm confused.


gatekeeping and elitism is linked thats the simple logic behind it, im sure OP has this list of supreme anime he wants normies to see
Modified by deg, May 19, 1:40 PM
 
#6
May 19, 1:41 PM

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Counter-culture is not supremacism. Make a better choice of words next time if you want to be taken seriously because this is not something to take lightly.
 
#7
May 19, 1:43 PM

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No thanks, there are already enough weebs.
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#8
May 19, 1:51 PM

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Orhunaa said:
I'm gonna be honest when I first read the title and saw your profile I thought "Wtf this guy used to make sense." Not the best choice of words indeed.

I agree with you in the sense that, yes usually more western/non-anime looking stuff will get recommended to nonfans. But I'm not convinced that it's because of some sort of inferiority complex admitting that they consume a lower form of entertainment. I think that it's because fans simply don't want to go to all the trouble of making a nonfan get accustomed to aspects that are uniquely anime but they still want to share their hobbies so they find shows that are more accessible to western fans. And that's fine really, if they desire to get into the more "anime" shows, they can do so themselves.

Also how is it even gatekeeping? I'd say it's the exact opposite. I'm confused.


I think it is more on how you "approach" anime, the odl debate of "Is it a genre or a medium?"
In that case i would never be against using anime like Psycho-pass or Shinsekai Yori to introduce people to the medium, because those have the specificalities of anime while, at the same time, not overwhelming a new viewer by them.

But that also brings me to a next point, that if you show someone anime with the mentality of "It looks like X western thing" you're essentially doing it wrong, because ultimatelly anime will always be "A lesser version of X western thing" if you treat it like this instead of treating it like anime.
Which is also why i'm a bit against "anime lists for getting into anime", because what most of them do is limit what a newcomer is watching and essentially giving them a wrong image of what anime is.
Sure, you can recommend all of the "western-like toonami shows" to your friend, but know that there are only so many of them, and after them, if your friend doesn't like the rest of what anime has to offer, he won't stick to the medium and will just go back to X western thing.
Which is why when someone asks how to get into anime, i will simply tell that person to watch seasonals, as they will probably be "a balanced diet".

And thinking more about it, perhaps it really isn't gatekeeping.


deg said:
thewiru said:

As if i'm gatekeeping... Yes, perhaps, but in the end i don't feel like i'm doing anything wrong, quite the opposite actually.


can you give examples of this "supremacist" anime in your mind?

but for now im not convince with this since i see hardcore fandoms as some modern tribalism "us vs them" mentality and we got plenty of that already inside the anime fandom alone so good luck even trying to unite everyone here under your list of supreme anime

Orhunaa said:

Also how is it even gatekeeping? I'd say it's the exact opposite. I'm confused.


gatekeeping and elitism is linked thats the simple logic behind it, im sure OP has this list of supreme anime he wants normies to see


That's not what i wanted to say with "supremacist", but yup, first phrase on my OP checks out.

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#9
May 19, 1:54 PM

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jal90 said:
Counter-culture is not supremacism. Make a better choice of words next time if you want to be taken seriously because this is not something to take lightly.


Yeah, i changed the title, i realized it would just go downhill from here.
When i made the thread i thought of it in my main language, when the word "supremacist" would have another conotation, but later i realized it would cut either.

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May 19, 2:14 PM

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deg said:

gatekeeping and elitism is linked thats the simple logic behind it, im sure OP has this list of supreme anime he wants normies to see


That's not what I got from OP's post. He's mostly criticizing people recommending western-influenced shows as gateway anime which he thinks will result in them leaving once they realize most shows aren't like that and have typical anime elements in them. I'm inclined to agree. He also doesn't like the fact that quality is measured by how much a show is devoid of typical anime elements and looks western.

@thewiru
I agree in that shows that retain some typical anime characteristics should be recommended as a gateway anime if you want to give them an accurate representation of what most anime is. However if your concern is not making them an anime fan and you just want them to have a good time recommending whatever you like is fine. I'm not on a crusade to convince everyone that anime is a respectable medium personally. I won't bother, if they don't give it a chance it's their loss.
Modified by Orhunaa, May 19, 2:31 PM
 
May 19, 2:24 PM
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@Orhunaa
@thewiru

even if you change it to counter-culture im not convince your belief in this will be successful, anime has a lot of sexual fanservice alone especially with underage (looking) sexual characters, thats why im asking a list of this so called counter-culture anime you have in mind, because lets face it what is your endgame with this like do you want anime to become mainstream one day? or you just want to prove that anime is an example of counter-culture if so ye i can see that

 
May 19, 2:26 PM

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thewiru said:
jal90 said:
Counter-culture is not supremacism. Make a better choice of words next time if you want to be taken seriously because this is not something to take lightly.


Yeah, i changed the title, i realized it would just go downhill from here.
When i made the thread i thought of it in my main language, when the word "supremacist" would have another conotation, but later i realized it would cut either.


Nice! It just didn't seem well to talk about cultural reivindication under the negative light that the word "supremacism" offers.

Other than that, I am not sure if I agree with your point in its entirety. We could surely make more of an effort to sell the appeal of anime as a product from a different culture instead of trying to adapt it to our own... but I don't think it's something we have to force in others. It's normal that somebody from the West finds more immediate value in stuff that matches Western values. And I get that it's annoying when people who are supposed to have a wide knowledge continue to treat and filter anime not as a cultural element on its own but as something that needs to match other cultural standards. But a lot of this is just typical self-deprecating comedy, and actually, a lot of fans tend to get very defensive when the joke mode is off.
 
May 19, 2:40 PM

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I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make but...

As far as I know most of the popular gateway anime recommendations are good examples of the potential of the medium without being too different for a 'normie' to appreciate. You seem to be misinterpreting the reasoning behind these choices.

I don't think the underdog mentality problem is nearly as bad as you think it, anyone with that mindset would be quickly corrected if they interact with the community in any way.
 
May 19, 2:44 PM

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I do feel the same way to an extent. Like, that there is a large degree of kowtowing and trying to appeal to what we're perceiving as most socially acceptable in our own societies, with a sort of coy approach to elements that can be deemed weird or undesirable. "We must appear as normal as possible." A needless kind of self-shaming mentality.

And Iunno, that seems kind of sad to me, I guess. It can kind of come off like there can be a degree of self-repression sometimes and being overly concerned with the image being projected in claiming something to be good or whatnot. Y'know, taking the basic and fair game aspect of trying to be considerate towards your environment and what they might consider weird or too different, and then turning that into a crippling fear of being judged by society that fuels stupid, polemic rhetoric against whatever you want to point the finger at because somebody called you a weeb for liking anime in a YT comments section or something.

I don't want to live like that, albeit hammering nails down seems to be a big thing here sometimes >_>

Aside from that, meh. I don't think it's that big of an issue to try to present something to ease somebody into the medium with that seems to meld into western media better, but I dislike the frequency of discussion surrounding what feels like a made-up image, one conjured solely from the minds of people who aren't in those shoes, of the most general audience member possible and then using that as a practice dummy of sorts. It feels like it starts taking the basic act of making considerate and thoughtful recs based around what you think somebody you know might like, and turning it into a kind-of "HEY TRY THIS ANIME IT'S GOOD FOR PEOPLE WHO AREN'T VERY INTO ANIME YET." And fucking geez, that shit's just weird to me. Then again, last time I talked about this someone called me a gatekeeper for thinking that trying to push anime onto people on the basis that its anime and not trying to take them and what you know of their interests in media on an individual level into consideration is a stupid way to act, so make of that what you will :>
Modified by Manaban, May 19, 6:41 PM
 
May 19, 2:45 PM

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Imagine you care so much about others opinion about your hobby that you would say that you see your favorite medium, or one of your favorites, as lower form of art, to begin with.
 
May 19, 2:56 PM

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deg said:
@Orhunaa
@thewiru

even if you change it to counter-culture im not convince your belief in this will be successful, anime has a lot of sexual fanservice alone especially with underage (looking) sexual characters, thats why im asking a list of this so called counter-culture anime you have in mind, because lets face it what is your endgame with this like do you want anime to become mainstream one day? or you just want to prove that anime is an example of counter-culture if so ye i can see that



There is no "counterculture anime list", but as you said, anime's approach to things like sex do play a part in it (May i say, it approaches it in a better way than western series, that tend to overuse it a lot even in their first episodes, while anime tends to keep it to special moments, worth watching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5dgiX4fibE ). Not just that, there's a plethora of reasons that i can't just put into a list.

BUT, if you want a list of something, i would give you a list of "Anime that feels more "Anime" than most anime", where i would list:

-Most of Hiroyuki Imaishi's stuff
-Kaiba
-HisoMaso
-FlipFlappers
-Kobayashi-san
-Made in Abyss
-Endro~!
-Hakumei to Mikochi

You get the gist of it.
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May 19, 3:03 PM

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thewiru said:
TBH, we should be more of "Anime supremacists"

I feel like i'm going to regret this choice of words...
You're right that this is a bad choice of words, and not just because of the "obvious" reason (i.e. the association with the term "white supremacist" for people who are racist against non-whites). The word "supremacist" implies the opinion that something is better than other things, but your post isn't even about that; it's about garnering an equally respected status (as opposed to seeing anime as "a lower form of art"). So the term doesn't even properly reflect your position.

EDIT NEVER MIND I WAS WAY LATE WITH THE REPLY LOL

thewiru said:
(A lot of this thread is based on the videos "Elitists: Your Credibility Lies At the Vanguard" and "Anime As Counter-Culture" by Digibro, so i would recommend watching them, they're good videos)
I'll give them a watch later.

thewiru said:
I don't think that we as a community make a great advertisement of what we enjoy. Recently i was in a thread on /a/ that had one of those "Essential Anime" charts. As most of these charts made by westerners are simply circlejerking "anime that doens't look like anime" and, more specifically, "anime that looks" western and that was problem the 20th chart of that kind i had seen, i left a a comment of displeasement.

My view of it is that instead of being an Aristotelic Aristocracy, moving the community to a better place, elitists on the anime community, quoting myself, "Just prefer to advertise stuff that looks like normie stuff so their academic friends in cinema, literature or etc might take them seriously" instead of embrancing a counter-cultural identity.
But if a group of westerner anime fans feel like they enjoy certain anime more than others and enjoy that anime in certain ways, wouldn't forcing them to adopt an opinion that's not their own be improperly betraying their own opinion?

There are some people who feel that they and/or other anime fans are kowtowing improperly to some western standard, but it would be presumptuous to say that the people who make those charts are necessarily thinking this way. Perhaps they just like anime with "western" elements -- or more generally (and more accurately?) anime that's less rich in certain anime tropes) -- or perhaps (maybe in experiences introducing anime to their fellow westerners) they've found that such series are more accessible to their friends.

To be fair, it's also presumptuous on their part to say that such anime are "essential". There is no such thing as "essential anime" -- unless you're watching it to get into some sort of social group that's also watched a lot of these same shows and looks up to them and often uses them as comparisons/references when watching other things.

thewiru said:
I notice this here a lot, that the community is filled with an underdog mentality for simply liking anime, as in "Yeah, i recognize it is a lower form of art and that the simple thought of talking without shame about it is shameful".
I have not noticed this; peoiple here seem to be generally just fine with liking what they like.

Some people like to wank about how much they hate this or that, but you get anti-casual wanking, anti-elitist wanking, anti-normie wanking, anti-fanservice wanking, anti-tropeyness wanking, anti-{the mental image of an overweight dude in a basement wanking creepily to 2D girls} wanking, and so on. Sometimes people just need a dumping ground for ideas they haven't thought through, and I totally understand that because sometimes I feel a need for a dumping ground for poorly-thought-out ideas too.

thewiru said:
I'm not asking for anyone to start praising bad or mediocre seasonals, but rather that the community would start celebrating some things that are unique to the medium instead of using "how western and non-anime it is" as a quality measurement.
I don't think people usually use this as a quality measurement or a measurement of how much they are willing to say they like something. I certainly don't; I don't mind saying I (dis)like something if that's what my opinion is.

We've already had people talk about all sorts of weird fetishes in all sorts of stupid ways here. The filters came off a long time ago.

Maybe you could argue that there is some sort of implicit bias in which westerners have tastes in anime that are different from Japanese tastes in anime. But in that case that'd be genuinely what each group prefers, rather than something done in fear of "embracing a counter-cultural identity".
 
May 19, 3:14 PM
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@thewiru

im just gonna point out that Imaishi is actually a fan of western media, and i think it shows since his anime are like those classic Looney Toons with its wacky animation and fast pace presentation just more mature/adult due to sexual stuff for example

and i did not hear your answer as to what your endgame is with this?
 
May 19, 3:22 PM

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thewiru said:
Orhunaa said:
I'm gonna be honest when I first read the title and saw your profile I thought "Wtf this guy used to make sense." Not the best choice of words indeed.

I agree with you in the sense that, yes usually more western/non-anime looking stuff will get recommended to nonfans. But I'm not convinced that it's because of some sort of inferiority complex admitting that they consume a lower form of entertainment. I think that it's because fans simply don't want to go to all the trouble of making a nonfan get accustomed to aspects that are uniquely anime but they still want to share their hobbies so they find shows that are more accessible to western fans. And that's fine really, if they desire to get into the more "anime" shows, they can do so themselves.

Also how is it even gatekeeping? I'd say it's the exact opposite. I'm confused.


I think it is more on how you "approach" anime, the odl debate of "Is it a genre or a medium?"
In that case i would never be against using anime like Psycho-pass or Shinsekai Yori to introduce people to the medium, because those have the specificalities of anime while, at the same time, not overwhelming a new viewer by them.

But that also brings me to a next point, that if you show someone anime with the mentality of "It looks like X western thing" you're essentially doing it wrong, because ultimatelly anime will always be "A lesser version of X western thing" if you treat it like this instead of treating it like anime.
Which is also why i'm a bit against "anime lists for getting into anime", because what most of them do is limit what a newcomer is watching and essentially giving them a wrong image of what anime is.
Sure, you can recommend all of the "western-like toonami shows" to your friend, but know that there are only so many of them, and after them, if your friend doesn't like the rest of what anime has to offer, he won't stick to the medium and will just go back to X western thing.
Which is why when someone asks how to get into anime, i will simply tell that person to watch seasonals, as they will probably be "a balanced diet".

And thinking more about it, perhaps it really isn't gatekeeping.
But (and @Orhunaa for reference)
> ultimatelly anime will always be "A lesser version of X western thing" if you treat it like this instead of treating it like anime.

Funny thing is that that's kinda how I approached anime and yet I certainly don't think it is "a lesser version" of any corresponding western thing.

For example, I've been wondering, why don't I bother watching Game of Thrones, since I like medieval-European-high-fantasy anime but don't really care for any noteworthy anime-specific tropes like face faults or fanservice? But then it occurred to me that Game of Thrones just doesn't have the fancy colorful pretty visuals that I can get in anime.

Well I guess you could say the colorful visuals are anime-specific tropes. But I'd hardly say use of more saturated color is specific to anime. And I guess there's also the character art. Though I do have occasional beef with anime art. And I can see pretty people in the form of live-action actors too. So that's also questionable whether it's anime-specific. Maybe it's the background music; anime BGMs use more melody than western TV show BGMs do. Maybe. (FWIW I haven't actually checked out GoT's soundtrack; I've pretty much completely ignored it. Also, girl with light blond hair and dark eyebrows looks a little weird for that mismatch.)

Anyhow my point is, I approach anime the same way I approach western entertainment, and yet I don't find anime to be a lesser version of some analogous western entertainment.

FWIW, I don't think that "anime lists for getting into anime" make sense either, but nor do other ways of trying to control the "right image" or "wrong image". People who like anime already are a varied bunch and no one likes all anime genres equally. Unless you're going to say that some mecha fan isn't "into anime" (or alternatively, isn't a "real anime fan") if they haven't watched some Minami-ke or other comedy SOL along with their Gundam (in which case you'd be sorta obnoxious), then there actually is no need to try to manage someone else's dabbling with anime.

Best approach for someone who is unfamiliar with the medium and wants recommendations, is to ask them what kind of stuff they want to watch, and then tailor suggestions accordingly, rather than impose one's own views on them (unless that's what they're asking for, of course).
 
May 19, 3:23 PM

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thewiru said:
deg said:
@Orhunaa
@thewiru

even if you change it to counter-culture im not convince your belief in this will be successful, anime has a lot of sexual fanservice alone especially with underage (looking) sexual characters, thats why im asking a list of this so called counter-culture anime you have in mind, because lets face it what is your endgame with this like do you want anime to become mainstream one day? or you just want to prove that anime is an example of counter-culture if so ye i can see that



There is no "counterculture anime list", but as you said, anime's approach to things like sex do play a part in it (May i say, it approaches it in a better way than western series, that tend to overuse it a lot even in their first episodes, while anime tends to keep it to special moments, worth watching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5dgiX4fibE ). Not just that, there's a plethora of reasons that i can't just put into a list.

BUT, if you want a list of something, i would give you a list of "Anime that feels more "Anime" than most anime", where i would list:

-Most of Hiroyuki Imaishi's stuff
-Kaiba
-HisoMaso
-FlipFlappers
-Kobayashi-san
-Made in Abyss
-Endro~!
-Hakumei to Mikochi

You get the gist of it.
The problem with any such list is that the way something "feels more 'anime'" to a person is different from person to person, and also varies from era to era.

There are some commonalities, such as the big-eyes-small-mouth style, as well as certain tropes appearing more than others, but clearly you're trying to go much further out on a limb than that, and likely based on your own tastes/experiences.
 
May 19, 3:32 PM

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I don't really see anime as "counter-culture", but I get where you're coming from. The times before I tried to get into the medium, people would try to recommend me what they thought were "safe bets", things that had a more western feel to them. If I had to guess, people are extremely conscious about what they watch and things that are not as acceptable in their own cultures. At times, fans seem like they are trying hard to prove people's pre-conceptions about the medium wrong, prove to others that their taste is not "inferior". But in doing so, they are reinforcing that, putting anime down, when they present as "general population-worthy" only more western-like shows.

Even so, I think that happens to anyone who has a somewhat-niche interest, they'll try to find some middle ground to not turn off people with their interest's pecularities and common tropes. For now, anime still is a niche medium in the west, so that's where that comes from, imo.



"If you throw your life away, you won’t even have the capacity to feel regret."
 
May 19, 3:37 PM
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GlennMagusHarvey said:
thewiru said:


There is no "counterculture anime list", but as you said, anime's approach to things like sex do play a part in it (May i say, it approaches it in a better way than western series, that tend to overuse it a lot even in their first episodes, while anime tends to keep it to special moments, worth watching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5dgiX4fibE ). Not just that, there's a plethora of reasons that i can't just put into a list.

BUT, if you want a list of something, i would give you a list of "Anime that feels more "Anime" than most anime", where i would list:

-Most of Hiroyuki Imaishi's stuff
-Kaiba
-HisoMaso
-FlipFlappers
-Kobayashi-san
-Made in Abyss
-Endro~!
-Hakumei to Mikochi

You get the gist of it.
The problem with any such list is that the way something "feels more 'anime'" to a person is different from person to person, and also varies from era to era.

There are some commonalities, such as the big-eyes-small-mouth style, as well as certain tropes appearing more than others, but clearly you're trying to go much further out on a limb than that, and likely based on your own tastes/experiences.


ye it seems to me like he wants to recommend this counter-culture anime to normies (thats why i asked him about his list of this) when he said this "I don't think that we as a community make a great advertisement of what we enjoy." or he just simply want to prove to the normies that anime is counter-culture

so if he intend to make a recommendation of this so called counter-culture anime to the normies or mainstream then inside the anime fandom alone there will be a bloodbath lol (i use hyperbole there)
 
May 19, 3:41 PM

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deg said:
GlennMagusHarvey said:
The problem with any such list is that the way something "feels more 'anime'" to a person is different from person to person, and also varies from era to era.

There are some commonalities, such as the big-eyes-small-mouth style, as well as certain tropes appearing more than others, but clearly you're trying to go much further out on a limb than that, and likely based on your own tastes/experiences.


ye it seems to me like he wants to recommend this counter-culture anime to normies (thats why i asked him about his list of this) when he said this "I don't think that we as a community make a great advertisement of what we enjoy." or he just simply want to prove to the normies that anime is counter-culture

so if he intend to make a recommendation of this so called counter-culture anime to the normies or mainstream then inside the anime fandom alone there will be a bloodbath lol (i use hyperbole there)
Well it's not a problem for him to say "hey these are weird anime series check them out because they're like nothing else you've seen before" or something vaguely along those lines.

Just that it doesn't make sense to ask everyone else to do things like this.

Besides, as I noted, the proper way to do recs isn't to say "oh here's 'western-ish' anime" or "oh here's very 'anime' anime" but rather to start by figuring out what the person wants.

So genre-specific recommendations actually make the most sense, as they are a preliminary step to allowing someone to customize their content without using some sort of arbitrarily-large culture-group filter.
Modified by GlennMagusHarvey, May 19, 3:45 PM
 
May 19, 3:44 PM
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GlennMagusHarvey said:
deg said:


ye it seems to me like he wants to recommend this counter-culture anime to normies (thats why i asked him about his list of this) when he said this "I don't think that we as a community make a great advertisement of what we enjoy." or he just simply want to prove to the normies that anime is counter-culture

so if he intend to make a recommendation of this so called counter-culture anime to the normies or mainstream then inside the anime fandom alone there will be a bloodbath lol (i use hyperbole there)
Well it's not a problem for him to say "hey these are weird anime series check them out because they're like nothing else you've seen before" or something vaguely along those lines.

Just that it doesn't make sense to ask everyone else to do things like this.

Besides, as I noted, the proper way to do recs isn't to say "oh here's 'western-ish' anime" or "oh here's very 'anime' anime" but rather to start by figuring out what the person wants.

So genre-specific recommendations actually make the most sense.


ye thats the status quo or that is what most fans are doing already too as far as i know

but when he says that everyone in the fandom should do this its inevitable that there will be an eventual fight for the list of this counter-culture anime stuff, like his example of those 4chan /a/ anime recommendations charts
 
May 19, 3:45 PM

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deg said:
GlennMagusHarvey said:
Well it's not a problem for him to say "hey these are weird anime series check them out because they're like nothing else you've seen before" or something vaguely along those lines.

Just that it doesn't make sense to ask everyone else to do things like this.

Besides, as I noted, the proper way to do recs isn't to say "oh here's 'western-ish' anime" or "oh here's very 'anime' anime" but rather to start by figuring out what the person wants.

So genre-specific recommendations actually make the most sense.


ye thats the status quo or that is what most fans are doing already too as far as i know

but when he says that everyone in the fandom should do this its inevitable that there will be an eventual fight for the list of this counter-culture anime stuff, like his example of those 4chan /a/ anime recommendations charts
Well if people are gonna argue on 4chan over their pet tastes then I'm grabbing popcorn.
 
May 19, 3:58 PM

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deg said:
@thewiru

im just gonna point out that Imaishi is actually a fan of western media, and i think it shows since his anime are like those classic Looney Toons with its wacky animation and fast pace presentation just more mature/adult due to sexual stuff for example

and i did not hear your answer as to what your endgame is with this?


Well, he's merely following Miyazaki's tips to incorporate non-anime influence into anime in order to enrich the medium.
Though anime in it's origins was based a lot on western animation of the time, Tezuka quickly became "the framework" for anime, for certain things that stretch to this day.
Knowing how much Miyazaki despised Tezuka i wouldn't doubt Miyazaki's tip had also the objective of making anime "less Tezuka".

As for an endgame: There's no endgame, this isn't Avengers.
I just published my thoughs of the current situation and what we could do in order to make a healthier and more functional community, which, in my view, is a change of mentality.

@GlennMagusHarvey

For example, I've been wondering, why don't I bother watching Game of Thrones, since I like medieval-European-high-fantasy anime but don't really care for any noteworthy anime-specific tropes like face faults or fanservice? But then it occurred to me that Game of Thrones just doesn't have the fancy colorful pretty visuals that I can get in anime.


Quite simple: It appears you did it backwards, expecting "anime" from "X western thing"(In this case, GoT).

I do not shame people liking things with western influences in anime, anime itself has a unique way of doing "western stuff".
What i do condone is treating "western stuff" as the "only correct way" of being anime since it is the most similar thing to western media. I just think that, if the onyl way a critic can perceive quality in anime is by being less anime and more any-other-medium, there's a problem in his approach.

The problem with any such list is that the way something "feels more 'anime'" to a person is different from person to person, and also varies from era to era.

There are some commonalities, such as the big-eyes-small-mouth style, as well as certain tropes appearing more than others, but clearly you're trying to go much further out on a limb than that, and likely based on your own tastes/experiences.


This was a personal opinion based on my own experiences, yes. But i didn't want to prove any point of it, is just that since the post i was answering misinterpreted me, i thought "Well, might as well post any anime list about any thing".

@deg

There are no utter motives on this list, i leterally just listed some anime that i like that i also like for "feeling more anime", i don't intend to do anything with that list because, as i said, i'm partially against the sole idea of "lists of anime to get into anime".

What are the things that make anime different from other mediums or are unique to it? I don't know all of them, which is one of the reasons i made this thread, it would be good if many content creators made positive content telling their own experiences about this.
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May 19, 5:40 PM

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thewiru said:
@GlennMagusHarvey

For example, I've been wondering, why don't I bother watching Game of Thrones, since I like medieval-European-high-fantasy anime but don't really care for any noteworthy anime-specific tropes like face faults or fanservice? But then it occurred to me that Game of Thrones just doesn't have the fancy colorful pretty visuals that I can get in anime.


Quite simple: It appears you did it backwards, expecting "anime" from "X western thing"(In this case, GoT).
Hm, I guess you have a fair point with that.
 
May 19, 6:32 PM

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I thin the anime community in Western countries is already a bit of a counter culture. I suppose I agree with you that I wouldn't mind if more of the community learned to be a bit more shameless about it though. Even in the anime community, it seems a lot of people really don't want to be thought of as a "weeb."
 
May 19, 6:42 PM

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Women can start talking an octave higher like 2D girls.
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Filter my anime list by fetish:
Ass - Boxing - Bunny - Catfight - S&M - Wrestling
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May 19, 6:52 PM

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I honestly don't believe in the elitist myth that this community has propagated for the sake of scapegoating people and immaturely dividing itself out of defensiveness, so I fundamentally disagree with those videos on that level despite most of the points in said videos being ones I agree with. But yea, I do think that an anime being more "western" shouldn't be praised for it as it seems more observational like "hey, this is more familiar to what my culture's content is like" and that if the anime is just really fucking good or "respectable", it should be praised for that. Being more "western" shouldn't be so intertwined with that. I tend to see all sides of the spectrum, where either that's part of the point of the praise, where some people dislike it for being western, and people sorta using that as extra appeal to sell something they found amazing regardless.
"Anti-elitists" are the true elitists of this community. They're the kind of people that remind me that the elitist stereotype they perpetuate basically doesn't exist, and those who use it to scapegoat embody practically every trait they put into the stereotype, as they sit in their ivory tower looking down at and attacking people they disagree with because they're being negative on a show they like, and their favorites list is comprised of at least one non-mainstream classic, all the while cowering at the idea of those people giving them a taste of their own medicine. Also, objectivity in art is relative, therefore arguable, not nonexistent.
 
May 19, 6:59 PM

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IpreferEcchi said:
Women can start talking an octave higher like 2D girls.


I second this...

But unfortunately that doesn't solve the problem of my character count being too fucking low.
 
May 21, 8:29 AM

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thewiru said:
deg said:
@Orhunaa
@thewiru

even if you change it to counter-culture im not convince your belief in this will be successful, anime has a lot of sexual fanservice alone especially with underage (looking) sexual characters, thats why im asking a list of this so called counter-culture anime you have in mind, because lets face it what is your endgame with this like do you want anime to become mainstream one day? or you just want to prove that anime is an example of counter-culture if so ye i can see that



There is no "counterculture anime list", but as you said, anime's approach to things like sex do play a part in it (May i say, it approaches it in a better way than western series, that tend to overuse it a lot even in their first episodes, while anime tends to keep it to special moments, worth watching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5dgiX4fibE ). Not just that, there's a plethora of reasons that i can't just put into a list.

BUT, if you want a list of something, i would give you a list of "Anime that feels more "Anime" than most anime", where i would list:

-Most of Hiroyuki Imaishi's stuff
-Kaiba
-HisoMaso
-FlipFlappers
-Kobayashi-san
-Made in Abyss
-Endro~!
-Hakumei to Mikochi

You get the gist of it.

I get what you're pointing at. Anime has its origin in a kid-targeted aesthetics that is different than Western cartoon. Many anime still retain and celebrate this kind of "kiddy" aesthetics even when they are now targeting an older audience. While many Western fans who want to appear decent would choose more "mature" looking shows like Cowboy Bebop or LoGH as the representative of this subculture.

But you kinda confuse my with your choice of Kaiba. Even the aesthetics of Kaiba does feel kiddy and cartoonish, it actually looks more like one of those East European psychedelic arthouse animation like Fantastic Planet (1973) (in fact this was where Yuasa took the influence.) I think Kaiba actually has a very "presentable" look because of how arthouse it looks.

In general I agree with your point and I think anime fans should be more confident about anime subculture and they shouldn't try too hard justifying the artistic merit of anime by how much they look like classic movies or live-action TV shows. They should focus more on what's unique in anime. Though I don't think it is "counter-culture" is a good description of those anime you've mentioned. I don't think they express values or attitudes to life substantially different than the mainstream society. Nor are they really trying to challenge the norms. Anime is a subculture, but to say it is a counter-culture is to attribute to it too much rebellious spirit it doesn't have.
 
May 21, 8:53 AM
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stopped reading when it said I need to watch Digibro videos with cringey titles to partake in the discussion. Does he pay you to advertise like that? In any case it's not gonna happen.

Randomly bringing in the elitist meme just further discredits the OP tbh.

It's a shame, if the point had been phrased normally and without trying to make me watch shitty Digibro vids I would probably have agreed, after all I regularly complain about how anime fans are the first ones to shittalk anime and that we can't expect our hobby to be respected as long as we don't respect it ourselves and stop with all the delf-deprecating 'anime is trash and so I am' memery bullshit.

But giving the topic this Digibro and 'western elitism' angle is just bullshit and makes me cringe. It really feels like the opposite is going on, and everything that is critically acclaimed will just be seen as 'western-ish' and 'boring taste' by people who force themselves to always be against everything because they like having that kind of image, because they like the idea of counter-culture and just overlay it over reality because they like seeing themselvs in that light, while also thinking they set the standard for what counts and what doesn't.

I'm not gonna stop calling fantastic shows fantastic just because some shitty youtuber somewhere thinks it's too western to deserve being praised without spouting some elitism bullshit about the people who appreciate it. I hate the self-deprecating mentality that is briefly mentioned in the OP, but I hate that Digibro-esque attitude of shitting on fans who appreciate certain works just because those works don't fit some fictional standard of 'anime-esque' or 'counterculture' that they made up to feel better about themselves and their own 'unique' taste even more.
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May 21, 9:30 AM

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the moment you gave attention to anime yt's and digibro etc it's the moment you have ruined yourself in this particular form of entertainment. Please you are in time. Stop watching and believing to those beings anymore. have your own thoughts an your own point of view. Stop!
 
May 21, 9:48 AM

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/a/ seems to me to be the place least concerned with trying to present an aesthetically and culturally 'safe' image of anime to outsiders. This is true on a lot of boards that have been around for many years, but I definitely see more genuine and sincere enjoyment on /a/ than I do ironic weeb shit or whatever (shitposting aside).

I don't think this is is a problem with the community 'as a whole' but is just something the most vocal people ('critics', list compilers, memers) tend to do. This is true for every community where insincere people with suspicious motivations become the 'face' of the hobby for whatever reason. I think in the case of anime, the younger average age of the fans helps this along.
 
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@Pullman

"I hate that Digibro-esque attitude of shitting on fans who appreciate certain works just because those works don't fit some fictional standard of 'anime-esque' or 'counterculture' that they made up to feel better about themselves and their own 'unique' taste even more."

Digibro doesn't do either of those things. If you actually watched his videos you'll know his taste is more western compared to most anime fans(preferring the new pokemon character designs over the old ones and generally advocating for anime to have a broader appeal (i.e "We Have Accepted Mediocrity)). In fact, Digi was a huge my little pony fan, and I used to watch him when he had this as his avatar:


Oh, and he doesn't believe in objectivity:
https://youtu.be/dQWc4oTpcNk?t=165

He only does that attitude jokingly
Modified by Peaceful_Critic, May 21, 9:55 AM

 
May 21, 10:10 AM
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Peaceful_Critic said:
@Pullman

"I hate that Digibro-esque attitude of shitting on fans who appreciate certain works just because those works don't fit some fictional standard of 'anime-esque' or 'counterculture' that they made up to feel better about themselves and their own 'unique' taste even more."

Digibro doesn't do either of those things. If you actually watched his videos you'll know his taste is more western compared to most anime fans(preferring the new pokemon character designs over the old ones and generally advocating for anime to have a broader appeal (i.e "We Have Accepted Mediocrity)). In fact, Digi was a huge my little pony fan, and I used to watch him when he had this as his avatar:


All I know is that he once made a 30 minute rant video about people having 'boring taste' for liking good and acclaimed shows because, idk, he doesn't approve of that taste, I guess. He accused everyone who likes certain shows of being a sheep and only liking them because it's 'cool to like them' and just generally made a whole video full of wrongful assumptions about people based on their favorites that was designed to put them down and undermine their credibility while of course excluding himself because his own taste is unique and great and if he likes something he does it for valid reasons, while everyone else are just sheep. It was the perfect example of toxic elitism in action. "Only I know what's really good and valid to like, if you like something else I'm gonna look down upon you one way or the other."

That video inspired a whole generation of 'anti-elitist' elitists into shitting on everyone who dares to like Yuasa or LOGH or NGE or any of the other popular, critically acclaimed shows, and feeling like they're being the good guys while doing so, because that's what Digi told them in that video, basically.

I barely made it through that video back then (which was also posted in a thread like this and framed as something intelligent and insightful, when it was really just retarded ego-stroking) and I have never watched another video of his since, and I never will. I don't like cringe compilations. Back then it was about not liking critically acclaimed shows because doing so is boring and people allegedly only liked them because everyone else did (except Digi of course) so that seemd to fit right in with this topic, which seems to say that all these critically acclaimed shows that the western fandom celebrates are only critically acclaimed because they're 'westernized', whatever that even means.

But even setting that aside I was just talking about the general method of applying your own standards unilaterally to anime and then mocking or looking down upon and undermining the credibility of people who have different standards, different tastes, just to feel better about yourself. Because standards and tastes can't just be different, your own has to be framed as being superior in some way.

Whether that is by being strictly 'superior' or just 'more interesting/less boring' than everyone else's taste (like in that older Digibro video) is a barely relevant detail since it's all the same egomaniac attitude. Their standard being based on westernization, critical acclaim, being 'typically anime' or whatever else is secondary for my point, and it isn't even rare to see people with that kind of logic switch their standards depending on who they want to bash at any given day, which is why I just assumed that this was Digi's new thing since OP mentioned him in that context and in my experience he likes bashing people based on their favorites by inventing reasons why they like them, because he thinks he knows better why they like something than they themselves do.
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May 21, 10:55 AM

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@Pullman

"All I know is that he once made a 30 minute rant video about people having 'boring taste' for liking good and acclaimed shows because, idk, he doesn't approve of that taste, I guess."

You don't even know the length of the video, it was 14 minutes. How long since you watched it? First of all, it wasn't directed at everyone only people who just had the safe, acclaimed shows on their list and when asked had little to no reasons to like it("no one can ever explain to me why they love it...every time I see a review of Ergo Proxy it's always like 'it's so different and it's intellectual'. And I'm like well 'how, why' and that's the thing about all these shows"). Even then, he didn't assume he said "I feel like" pretty much the whole video and wasn't meant to reflect on anyone badly("Maybe he legitimately loves all those shows"). The whole video was him talking on how he feels when he sees those kinds of lists and you were supposed to take it with a grain of salt. It was based on the fact is when he sees other lists, not like that, he can get a sense on what they like.

"retarded ego-stroking"

He only talked about himself in comparison to make a point. It was "When you see my list you can see that I like shows with a bunch of stuff going on" and how he gets hate for liking shows such as K-On. It wasn't him bragging on how great his taste is.

 
May 21, 11:05 AM

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thewiru said:
My view of it is that instead of being an Aristotelic Aristocracy, moving the community to a better place, elitists on the anime community, quoting myself, "Just prefer to advertise stuff that looks like normie stuff so their academic friends in cinema, literature or etc might take them seriously" instead of embrancing a counter-cultural identity.


Academic friends? Yeah right.....

https://www.cartoonbrew.com/award-season-focus/proof-that-oscar-voters-are-clueless-about-animation-109456.html


I only watch the ones that my kid wants to see, so I didn’t see [The] Boxtrolls but I saw Big Hero 6 and I saw [How to Train Your] Dragon [2]. We both connected to Big Hero 6 — I just found it to be more satisfying. The biggest snub for me was Chris Miller and Phil Lord not getting in for [The] Lego [Movie]. When a movie is that successful and culturally hits all the right chords and does that kind of box-office — for that movie not to be in over these two obscure freakin’ Chinese fuckin’ things that nobody ever freakin’ saw [an apparent reference to the Japanese film The Tale of the Princess Kaguya, as well as the Irish film Song of the Sea]? That is my biggest bitch. Most people didn’t even know what they were! How does that happen? That, to me, is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever seen.
MY VOTE: Big Hero 6




 
May 21, 11:15 AM

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thewiru said:
I feel like i'm going to regret this choice of words...
(A lot of this thread is based on the videos "Elitists: Your Credibility Lies At the Vanguard" and "Anime As Counter-Culture" by Digibro, so i would recommend watching them, they're good videos)


I don't think that we as a community make a great advertisement of what we enjoy. Recently i was in a thread on /a/ that had one of those "Essential Anime" charts. As most of these charts made by westerners are simply circlejerking "anime that doens't look like anime" and, more specifically, "anime that looks" western and that was problem the 20th chart of that kind i had seen, i left a a comment of displeasement.

My view of it is that instead of being an Aristotelic Aristocracy, moving the community to a better place, elitists on the anime community, quoting myself, "Just prefer to advertise stuff that looks like normie stuff so their academic friends in cinema, literature or etc might take them seriously" instead of embrancing a counter-cultural identity.

I notice this here a lot, that the community is filled with an underdog mentality for simply liking anime, as in "Yeah, i recognize it is a lower form of art and that the simple thought of talking without shame about it is shameful".
I'm not asking for anyone to start praising bad or mediocre seasonals, but rather that the community would start celebrating some things that are unique to the medium instead of using "how western and non-anime it is" as a quality measurement.

I'm not asking much, is just that i'm asking the "should-be-aristocracy" of the community to start acting like valuing themselves like consumers of any other medium rather than subalterns.

That's why I treat anime the same way as I treat western movies/tv series. Anime is just another form of entertainment.


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May 21, 11:50 AM

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@CHC

It was a line of thought of mine i've never thought much about it, but you gave me some nice hints.
When i mentioned Kaiba i was not that much thinking about it's aesthethics (As good as they are), but on the part of anime that is able to approach darker themes with subtlety, without being edgy and etc, like in Konaka Chiaki's works.

Hamazura said:
the moment you gave attention to anime yt's and digibro etc it's the moment you have ruined yourself in this particular form of entertainment. Please you are in time. Stop watching and believing to those beings anymore. have your own thoughts an your own point of view. Stop!


Why?

syncrogazer said:
/a/ seems to me to be the place least concerned with trying to present an aesthetically and culturally 'safe' image of anime to outsiders. This is true on a lot of boards that have been around for many years, but I definitely see more genuine and sincere enjoyment on /a/ than I do ironic weeb shit or whatever (shitposting aside).

I don't think this is is a problem with the community 'as a whole' but is just something the most vocal people ('critics', list compilers, memers) tend to do. This is true for every community where insincere people with suspicious motivations become the 'face' of the hobby for whatever reason. I think in the case of anime, the younger average age of the fans helps this along.


Threads like the one i mentioned are more like the exception than the rule nowadays, i noticed that when i noticed that the "pre-2000 anime threads" are usually just by the same 10 people.
So yeah, i agree with you.

@petran79

>my post talks about how academics shit on animation, so anime fans who want to try being academic will praise anime that looks like oscar bait rather than anime
>proceeds to link a post that says that academics shit on animation, proving my point

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May 21, 12:13 PM
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Peaceful_Critic said:
@Pullman

"All I know is that he once made a 30 minute rant video about people having 'boring taste' for liking good and acclaimed shows because, idk, he doesn't approve of that taste, I guess."

You don't even know the length of the video, it was 14 minutes. How long since you watched it? First of all, it wasn't directed at everyone only people who just had the safe, acclaimed shows on their list and when asked had little to no reasons to like it("no one can ever explain to me why they love it...every time I see a review of Ergo Proxy it's always like 'it's so different and it's intellectual'. And I'm like well 'how, why' and that's the thing about all these shows"). Even then, he didn't assume he said "I feel like" pretty much the whole video and wasn't meant to reflect on anyone badly("Maybe he legitimately loves all those shows"). The whole video was him talking on how he feels when he sees those kinds of lists and you were supposed to take it with a grain of salt. It was based on the fact is when he sees other lists, not like that, he can get a sense on what they like.

"retarded ego-stroking"

He only talked about himself in comparison to make a point. It was "When you see my list you can see that I like shows with a bunch of stuff going on" and how he gets hate for liking shows such as K-On. It wasn't him bragging on how great his taste is.


Well, it certainly felt like 30 minutes. And I assume I watched it shortly after it came out because that's usually when people make threads about his videos.

And I distinctly remember him talking about 3x3s he sees randomly on the internet, no way he talks to all those people to find out why they like what they like. He's just making assumptions about why they like them and how they justify it based on seeing the same shows being favorites over and over again. The natural conclusion would be to assume those shows are very good and have near-universal appeal and that's why they keep showing up in people's favorites, but the more toxic-minded people will instead conclude that their taste can't be 'real' because it's too 'boring', and make a video about that 'problem'.

And that's the whole point, the video gave great insight into how he thinks and feels and how he approaches stuff and I'm just not interested in the thought processes of someone like that, grain of salt or not. Using some rhetorics to relativize the whole thing didn't really help either, it was pretty clear that he simply couldn't understand why many people would gravitate toward the same few dozen critically acclaimed shows and desperately tried to come up with explanations that were centered around questioning the credibility of the people who have them in their favorites. A few cosmetics here and there don't really change that fact.

He doesn't have to explicitly state that he's doing it for ego-stroking, who would do that? But that's always the reason for people complaining or discrediting other people's taste. It's implied, you automatically elevate yours in comparison by putting down that of others.

Also what does it even mean, that he can only tell what people like when he sees lists 'not like that'? You can tell what they like just the same, unless you refuse to accept that they like their favorites and come up with weird conspiracy theories that they're just doing it because everyone does it, or whatever. I don't understand and will never agree on treating certain shows differently than all the others, as if having them in your favorites means 'less' than having any other show on there, just because of what? Because they're critically acclaimed? That's just arrogant bullshit, exactly the kind of shit I was talking about that makes me dislike him.

And it's not the last time I've come into contact with his videos and views, even tho I haven't watched them anymore, so I know it isn't just a one-time thing. It's just the only example I specifically remember in detail. People do regularly make threads like this after all, where they basically just summarize one of his videos and then want to discuss it. Plus I've seen older ones before I completely lost interest.

My conclusion is that his videos can be decent if he's just talking about technical stuff or specific series, but as soon as he is talking about the fandom, community, tastes, genres, about any of these meta topics, I just find him utterly disagreeable and just feeding into the more toxic parts of the community. Like that video I mentioned, no matter how he meant it it was interpreted by most people at the time as a justification to shit on everyone who has these 'elitist' and 'boring' favorites. People with that kind of attitude had a stronger presence for a while after that video was released because it gave them confidence that some big youtuber used big words to give their 'elitist bashing', purely based on what shows are in someones favorites, a theoretical background and justification.

I sincerely think the less he talks about his general worldviews and how he 'feels' about random stuff, the better for the anime community. He should stick to reviewing and analysing anime, he's at least decent at that. Even I can enjoy and appreciate videos like this:


But whenever I see him, or hear someone talking about what he said about more general topics, the content and tone and thought processes and everything just makes me angry, especially because of how many people just eat it up and adopt his often problematic takes on controversial issues. I'd ignore him if I could, but as I said people keep making topics based on the stuff he says, usually trying to drive home a point that I vehemently disagree with (like this thread) so I feel forced to at least mention my disdain for him while arguing against them, since they brought him up. It can't be a coincidence that everytime someone makes a thread based on something he said, I find those threads to be very disagreeable or problematic. I doubt they all just misunderstand him.

Anyway, that's all I'm willing to talk about the guy. I only came into this thread because I disagree with the OP, mentioning how much I dislike digi was just an obligatory sidenote since OP tries to bait readers into watching his videos. I'd happily argue about the topic of the thread and the arguments OP used because I still have a lot to say about that. Like why people are surprised that after aggressively stereotyping 'elitists' solely based on their favorites for years now everyone they put that label on has a very similar taste. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy if I've ever seen one. First you call everyone with yuasa and logh in their favorites an elitist for years, and then you wonder why everyone you call an elitist has yuasa and logh in their favorites. Sasu-fucking-ga.

But I've already invested more time and effort than I probably should have into this digibro argument, so that's it from me in that regard. I don't particularly care if my reasoning doesn't perfectly hold up to someone who can quote the whole video by heart, I'm still gonna trust the overall impression of his that I built over the years. I just don't care enough to go back and watch his videos just to find out which passages to quote to back up my points. I just know how they made me feel when I saw them, and that's enough for me even if, admittedly, it is not enough to make a convincing argument to a third party. But I wasn't trying to, at least not about digi, just about the content of this thread which allegedly summarizes two of his videos.
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May 21, 12:34 PM

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Also I decree all women shall wear these outfits.

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May 21, 12:41 PM

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OP. I am 100% with you. I get the feeling there are a lot of us that feel the same way. I have been making some noise but it's really difficult. You have to word yourself in such a careful way, especially if you really go big dick and try to discuss this stuff in the hive of normie anime fandom that is r/anime.

Keep making noise and remember there are a lot of us that feel the same way. I hope that someday soon there will be a split between anime "traditionalists" - for lack of a better word - and these "new age" fans that think the less anime something looks and the less anime tropes it has then the better it is. It is a mindset entirely wrought of self-loathing and appeals to judgment by western societal norms.
Modified by YossaRedMage, May 21, 1:01 PM
Current: Midara na Ao-chan, Shoumetsu Toshi.
Weekly: Sounan Desu ka, Tejina-senpai, Dumbbell Nan Kilo Moteru, Miru Tights, Kawaikereba, Takagi-san 2.
Recently finished: Nobunaga's Young Bride (5), Amazing Stranger (7), Dororo (7), Senko-san (6), Gunjou no Magmel (4), Senryuu Shoujo (6), Shield Hero (7).

Check out my blog at http://yossanime.com/
Lastest post: Morality-Based Artistic Critique is Bunk, Part 2
 
May 21, 1:02 PM

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Get the fuck outta here with your e-celeb crap, shill.
"If you died, would anyone care? Would they really care? Maybe, they'd cry for a day. But, let's be honest no one would give a shit. They wouldn't. The few people that would feel obligated to go to your funeral would probably be annoyed and leave as early as possible. That's who you are. That's what you are. You are nothing to anyone. To everyone."
-Mr. Robot

"I can take another name, and build a new life.. But on the inside I'll always have that instinct, no matter how much I hate it. I'm yakuza through and through. Guile only gets you so far in this game. Remember that. You won't get another chance."
-Kiryu Kazuma
 
May 21, 1:18 PM

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Rinshan-san said:
Get the fuck outta here with your e-celeb crap, shill.


I'm kind of an e-celeb myself... or atleast i was before being banned from the two places i was famous.

YossaRedMage said:
OP. I am 100% with you. I get the feeling there are a lot of us that feel the same way. I have been making some noise but it's really difficult. You have to word yourself in such a careful way, especially if you really go big dick and try to discuss this stuff in the hive of normie anime fandom that is r/anime.

Keep making noise and remember there are a lot of us that feel the same way. I hope that someday soon there will be a split between anime "traditionalists" - for lack of a better word - and these "new age" fans that think the less anime something looks and the less anime tropes it has then the better it is. It is a mindset entirely wrought of self-loathing and appeals to judgment by western societal norms.


I initially thought i would have a ton of backlash against this, but it seems, fortunatelly, that a lot of people not only perceive this, but agree with me.
The only ones completely disagreeing are the kind i already knew would disagree either way, so i count this as a win.
Lusophones of the world, hear my podcast:
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May 21, 1:23 PM

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@Pullman
"But I've already invested more time and effort than I probably should have into this digibro argument, so that's it from me in that regard. I don't particularly care if my reasoning doesn't perfectly hold up to someone who can quote the whole video by heart, I'm still gonna trust the overall impression of his that I built over the years. I just don't care enough to go back and watch his videos just to find out which passages to quote to back up my points. I just know how they made me feel when I saw them, and that's enough for me even if, admittedly, it is not enough to make a convincing argument to a third party. But I wasn't trying to, at least not about digi, just about the content of this thread which allegedly summarizes two of his videos."

I probably shouldn't try replying to most of what you wrote then seeing how you are done talking about Digi. Though I do disagree with pretty much everything you wrote. It's not that it doesn't perfectly hold up, it's that what you wrote about him was gathered around assumptions and false memories about videos you haven't watched in years. I don't know why you trust past, year-long memories so much. It's fine that you don't like his videos or don't feel talking about him. However, I'm not going to respect your opinion on him, as a person, if you refuse to back up any of your claims and honestly don't think you should talk about him as a person if you haven't watched him in such a long time(not that you care). I'm putting the "as a person" because your opinion on him as a content creator isn't hurting anyone via personal attacks.

 
May 21, 2:17 PM

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thewiru said:
(A lot of this thread is based on the videos "Elitists: Your Credibility Lies At the Vanguard" and "Anime As Counter-Culture" by Digibro, so i would recommend watching them, they're good videos)
Good gosh each of those has its own reference video and now I've had to watch four videos just to respond to this. ACTUALLY IT'S ONLY JUST THREE SINCE ONE OF THOSE FOUR WAS A FOLLOW-UP RATHER THAN A PREQUEL

With regards to the first video, I feel like your post is mainly about something different though. It's not about elitism vs. casualism (unless one could make an outside chain of mental leaps to connect it to the vague complaints about the "westernization" of anime in the form of simply making curmudgeonly complaints about new people getting into the fandom).

Indeed, the video that the first Digibro video is a follow-up to (and which Digibro praises), E-Kon's "Why Are There So Many Anime Elitists?", actually mentions "art critics, film critics, book critics", describing them as "all elitsts that are widely respected, and celebrated, even, for having self-important tastes and criticizing others" (and asks why anime elitists can't be viewed the same way), and also speaks of studying "filmmaking, screenwriting, aesthetic theory", and other things, citing even a Disney illustrator's work about animation. In contrast, you're arguing that anime shouldn't align with "western" academic ideas of "cinema, literature or etc" and should "embrace" a "counter-culture".

E-Kon and Digibro seem to be talking more about "developments of the art form of anime" elitism, while you're talking about a "keep the anime fandom niche" argument. There is some overlap but they're definitely not the same thing.

As for the second video...like Digibro actually mentions, the "counter-culturality" of anime is a thing that cuts across nationality -- it's not just about "looking western" vs. "not looking western", as you suggest.

While embracing something non-western in the west might be niche, just going with something non-western for the sake of being niche feels like a cop-out as far as "being counterculture" goes.

Not to mention that I'd question how much value there is in intentionally trying to "be counter-culture"; which feels kinda chuuni; it's more a role that one ends up falling into rather than one that one can really just voluntarily choose because one is bored with life (though that's not to say that can't ever happen either).
Modified by GlennMagusHarvey, May 21, 2:50 PM
 
May 21, 2:28 PM
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Peaceful_Critic said:
@Pullman
"But I've already invested more time and effort than I probably should have into this digibro argument, so that's it from me in that regard. I don't particularly care if my reasoning doesn't perfectly hold up to someone who can quote the whole video by heart, I'm still gonna trust the overall impression of his that I built over the years. I just don't care enough to go back and watch his videos just to find out which passages to quote to back up my points. I just know how they made me feel when I saw them, and that's enough for me even if, admittedly, it is not enough to make a convincing argument to a third party. But I wasn't trying to, at least not about digi, just about the content of this thread which allegedly summarizes two of his videos."

I probably shouldn't try replying to most of what you wrote then seeing how you are done talking about Digi. Though I do disagree with pretty much everything you wrote. It's not that it doesn't perfectly hold up, it's that what you wrote about him was gathered around assumptions and false memories about videos you haven't watched in years. I don't know why you trust past, year-long memories so much. It's fine that you don't like his videos or don't feel talking about him. However, I'm not going to respect your opinion on him, as a person, if you refuse to back up any of your claims and honestly don't think you should talk about him as a person if you haven't watched him in such a long time(not that you care). I'm putting the "as a person" because your opinion on him as a content creator isn't hurting anyone via personal attacks.


Well, since this is more of an issue of how I form and store opinions, which is actually a topic that I would like to write down my thought on, I think I have one more reply in me. Feel free to ignore it tho, it might not be very interesting for you. But I wanted to formally write down my thoughts on this for a bit now so I'm taking this opportunity.



So yeah, I just like to take a stab at him whenever someone makes a thread about his threads, especially if they try to make me watch his videos before I can partake into the discussion because that goes against my plans of avoiding him when he's being shoved in my face like this. I don't need you to respect my stabs tho, they're just stabs, not argumentative essays. I didn't even expect anyone to reply in that much detail to them tbh. I simply enjoy taking stabs at anitubers in general and digi is the one that keeps popping up in threads, giving me the opportunity to do so :>

What I would like is for you to respect my arguments/opinions on the actual topic, on what OP said, but so far still noone has replied to that part. And by now I'm exhausted from this digi argument (and other threads on AD) that I'm not even sure I'd be motivated if I got a proper reply at this point -.-.

Maybe as a digi fan you could at least give your 2 cents on whether OP accurately represented what digi said in those two videos so I know if I'm just arguing against OP or against all of digi and his followers when I vehemently disagree with the stuff OP said.

e: nvm, @GlennMagusHarvey seems to have already done that. Props to him for actually being willing to sit through 4 videos just to reply to a thread. No thread should ask that of you imo and if an OP can't properly summarize a video they reference, they should just not reference videos at all if you ask me. Make your own points, referencing long-ass videos from anitubers just feels like a cop out to me.
Modified by Pullman, May 21, 2:33 PM
no more forums
 
May 21, 2:50 PM

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Pullman said:
e: nvm, @GlennMagusHarvey seems to have already done that. Props to him for actually being willing to sit through 4 videos just to reply to a thread. No thread should ask that of you imo and if an OP can't properly summarize a video they reference, they should just not reference videos at all if you ask me. Make your own points, referencing long-ass videos from anitubers just feels like a cop out to me.
To be fair I just came back to this thread to edit in the fact that I only watched 3 videos. I didn't watch "Anime as Regular Culture", which turned out to be a follow-up video rather than a reference video.
 
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