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Poll: Fruits Basket (2019) Episode 7 Discussion


May 18, 2019 10:51 PM
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Why MR and orginal watchers complaining about it being conviant ... Dosnt she (kana) show up out of no where in all version ?

I looked at a Manga panel it's pretty much the same The only thing that's Missing is Tokyo isn't it ? And I don't see how it forced either


What epiosde is this scene in the original
Modified by Mattinator95, May 18, 2019 11:09 PM
 
May 18, 2019 11:21 PM
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Mattinator95 said:
Why MR and orginal watchers complaining about it being conviant ... Dosnt she (kana) show up out of no where in all version ?

I looked at a Manga panel it's pretty much the same The only thing that's Missing is Tokyo isn't it ? And I don't see how it forced either


What epiosde is this scene in the original


Kana doesn't show up at all in the (2001) but Hatori (or someone?) did mention that he had spoken to her recently.

I think people think Hatori running into her conveniently in the middle of Tokyo after she had been away for two years is more believable than him running into her at the Sohma estate with no explanation that she had been gone for 2 years so assuming it was somehow the first time in 2 years that he saw her when they were both still at the main estate. Actually, this version probably is more believable than the manga one, if you gave the additional explanation that Kana had either moved away or lives "outside" and Hatori rarely ever goes "outside" (true of most "insiders" in canon, but hasn't been explained by the anime), but now Kana was back or "inside" because of the New Years prep. But such an explanation isn't given, even in an offhand comment, so it's more confusing.

Either way, both scenarios no matter what other explanation are extremely coincidental and made that way for the sake of a storytelling device, so it's not worth nitpicking about in my opinion. Also it's the most glaring example of something "convenient" happening in all of Fruits Basket*, so I don't care ultimately.

*aside from maybe
 
May 19, 2019 3:07 AM

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wow that was emotional...what is the deal with the head though
 
May 19, 2019 3:36 AM
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Hatori's past always gives me goosebumps, especially since Akito was always one of the least likable characters I've ever seen in an anime or manga. That foreshadowing in this episode was great.

Manga spoiler ahead, only read if you know what happens later on:
Modified by Haptism93, May 19, 2019 3:48 AM




Amazing set by Taiyaki & Bunnyama <3
 
May 19, 2019 4:21 AM

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Zaugr said:

Swagernator said:

Also let me say this, i absolutely despise any form of memory erasing shenanigans in romance stories.


100% thank you. I hate this trope with a godamn passion, and not just because some NTR shit nearly always follows. They always write the characters as either completely helpless or completely useless to their situation, and neither is ever interesting because it always just feels contrived and forced for the sake of easy grand drama. Also why write romance with entirely, utterly unrelatable issues? Nothing about memory loss in a relationship is relatable to anyone under 50 or who doesn't look for dates in Alzheimer's carehomes.

The problem I see with this is that wouldn't there be people who remember that Kana had a relationship with Hatori and find it super strange that she suddenly remembers nothing? Like her parents?
"The moment one sits down to think, one becomes all nose, or all forehead, or something horrid. Look at the successful men in any of the learned professions. How perfectly hideous they are! Except, of course, in the Church. But then in the Church they don't think. A bishop keeps on saying at the age of eighty what he was told to say when he was a boy of eighteen, and as a natural consequence he always looks absolutely delightful."
 
May 19, 2019 4:28 AM
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Lain666 said:
Zaugr said:



100% thank you. I hate this trope with a godamn passion, and not just because some NTR shit nearly always follows. They always write the characters as either completely helpless or completely useless to their situation, and neither is ever interesting because it always just feels contrived and forced for the sake of easy grand drama. Also why write romance with entirely, utterly unrelatable issues? Nothing about memory loss in a relationship is relatable to anyone under 50 or who doesn't look for dates in Alzheimer's carehomes.

The problem I see with this is that wouldn't there be people who remember that Kana had a relationship with Hatori and find it super strange that she suddenly remembers nothing? Like her parents?


Well ... if they did know then they also knew that their daughters mental health fell completely apart from this relationship, so if she could forget it they might be on board.

 
May 19, 2019 4:57 AM

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Mate, the animation in this truly slaps differently. Hits all the right notes.
 
May 19, 2019 6:13 AM

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Wow I wasn't expecting that at all. Hatori ended up being such a nice guy with a really sad story. Poor guy, hope he finds happiness again.
And Momiji... I really want to adopt that boy! he's too cute!
 
May 19, 2019 6:42 AM

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Amyyw said:
Kimurah said:
Yet they hadn't crossed paths in TWO WHOLE YEARS, but they actually do cross paths right at that moment. If that can't be called convenient, I don't know what does.


I didn't said it wasn't, I said that "it's not THAT convenient" since, like I said before, they are from the clan and they were in front of their clan's house.. also, its almost New Year and Momiji said that the outside people help them prepare for it so there's that x)



That's the problem, you're just "downplaying" the convenient writing by saying "NOT THAT". It is PRETTY CONVENIENT no matter how you see it. They live in the same Sohma state, and no matter how big it is, they could have bumped at least once or twice in a period of 2 years. But no, they bump up right after Haru gets his screenntime just in time to get his wish fullfilled of her getting a new man.

Amyyw said:

Kimurah said:
So forgive me if I don't believe a bit you say that it was "exactly like that in the manga"


Here you have it.. yes the dialogue is a little bit different but the event where she appears behind him while he's sitting on a bench is exactly like in the manga...





Ok, you win on this one.

Amyyw said:

Kimurah said:
And what the fucking hell does it being old has to do with "events are going to look convenient"? There are older titles from the 70s, 80s and early 90s that aren't this atrociously convenient.


But there are SOME that are though...


Just because some of them are convenient doesn't mean that it's a trait of an era. Bad and contrived writing exists on all periods.
Modified by Kimurah, May 19, 2019 7:01 AM
 
May 19, 2019 7:14 AM

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Atavistic said:
DustyHaze said:


The Sohma curse is very much a curse. I can't go into too much detail without spoiling future events in the plot, but there's already been a few hints the curse is a lot darker then it looks.

It's not just a cute thing of "Oh look, he becomes an animal when hugged by the opposite sex! How cute!". It's an actual curse that when you stop and think about it at the end of the series, you realize just how fucked up it really is.

Well, it's hard to accept that when the only hints of it have been characters outright calling it a curse without any explanation of why, and the fact that Yuki used to not have the best health. Other than that, the show has presented it solely as changing into animals so far, so it's not exactly fair to criticise the view I've gained from what the show has actually shown so far and without any knowledge of future developments (not everyone has read the manga and/or watched the original, after all).

Basically, my argument is that, if the show was going to do an episode like this, it needed to do more prior to this point to foreshadow that this is truly a messed up curse rather than using this backstory to introduce that notion (and seriously diluting the backstory's emotional impact in the process).

My other argument is that it's not fair to dangle future developments - that I have no way of knowing about - in front of me and critiquing my questions when the show has done nothing to really address it (someone else posted that Hatori didn't blame Akito because of the curse, but that explains literally nothing at this point and if anything only confuses things more so far).


This convo made me think a bit this. I actually agree even after reading the manga that I don't think simply curse explains how Soma family works and it's members behave and accept Akito's, well abuse. Like it's not like Akito has some kind of superpower over them, at least i never got that impression, it's not like they really have to listen and they can't make choice to defend or try to defend themselves.

But actually just keeping on things we have seen in anime so far there is actually Somas that stand up against Akito and Akito's wishes. Current example is Yuki and Yuki's attitude, he went against what school Akito had ordered zodiacs to go to and he tries his best to distance himself from Soma family, he wants to reject it and even questions others like Kyo for trying to get to Soma's inner circle and graving for acceptance of the family.

I think Hatori could have fought against Akito, he could have taken Kana and left whole family even, of course he would have to deal with their disapproval though. But I think Hatori justifies what happened with him for it being the curse and that's how he accepts Akito being like Akito is-and because he just accepts what happened to him as the curse he just gives up and is unable to move on with his own life. It's not sth that should be applauded and thought as good thing to me, but it does make sense to me.

The reasons why Soma's and zodiacs put off with the "curse" and Akito's abusiveness to me is mixture of things. One of them is the actual curse, that has some effect of tying them together in some emotional level at least. Another to me is tradition, accepting that this is how it has always been and will be for them, that it's their role and duty. Then there is family relations and rules of community- you want to have good relations with ur family and if you don't follow what the people in position of authority say- like family head like Akito- you will get ostracized and could even get punished in some way. And I think the last one of them is abuse itself and psychological damage it brings.

If the anime adapts whole manga, I think u will both question why people let Akito to be like he is and understand it more, but overall I think it will make more sense definitely at least it did to me ^^ And yes I don't think it's only because of the curse, there is lot of factors in it.



 
May 19, 2019 12:30 PM

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I love this episode. I remember this one from the older Fruits Basket and I think this remake couldn't have been better. So Hatori is the doctor of the Souma's. He once loved a woman but he could not marry her because Akito didn't approve of their marriage. It is heartbreaking. I don't exactly remember everything about the Souma curse, but I hope Akito has a valid reason to have that woman's mind erased.

Also, Hatori zodiac animal is adorable. He is the dragon and to see him transform into a seahorse was cute. It was nice to see that Tooru had the same reaction as his beloved. This episode ended on a warm and cozy note. I cannot wait for next week!
 
May 19, 2019 12:43 PM
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Crystal_Star07 said:
thebond_thecurse said:


Spoilers, my dude? Maybe don't.

I dont really think that was a spoiler. Yuki literally said in an earlier episode that he cant go against Akito's wishes even if he wanted to. All I did was make it more clear. I didnt spoil anything major.

Yeah what you said was an extreme spoiler. What Yuki said can be interpreted in many different ways. But what newer viewers can gather from it is most likely that Yuki cant defy Akito because he is head of the family. Its like how a child cant go against their parent because the parents raised them and they rely on their parents.
 
May 19, 2019 1:49 PM
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Congrats you had my tears

I'm level on mal-badges. View my badges.

 
May 19, 2019 1:52 PM

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I have several questions about the "seadragon" thing but most importantly I have several more tears and pain in my heart for Hatori's backstoryyyyyyy ;________;

Just when I thought this couldn't get any sadder they just

woah there can u hear that is the sound of my heart breaking in the distance

This anime is getting more and more emotional every episode and I'm living for it
 
May 19, 2019 2:59 PM

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Lain666 said:
The problem I see with this is that wouldn't there be people who remember that Kana had a relationship with Hatori and find it super strange that she suddenly remembers nothing? Like her parents?

That's a good point. I guess she just had no close friends whatsoever lol, and even though they were very close to marriage and had been together for long time and were really in enamored with each other,, they never even spoke about it to anyone, not even her parents.... Or the guy did a whole bunch of investigative memory wiping, though that leads to even more questions doesn't it...
Hmm, I think maybe the writing for this just isn't that solid. :P

thebond_thecurse said:

Hey, all I can say is the story is doing its job if it's making you wonder how and why the hell characters are letting such outrageous abuse just slide.
I do think there is ... hmm, some cultural nuance non-Japanese viewers might not pick up on. I mean, the story is understandable without it but it might make it richer and easier to understand more quickly with it ... I think a lot of non-Japanese fans take some aspects of the Sohma for granted, like yes they know they're a bit odd and out of place but not the true extent to which they are. Maybe they think, "oh, there are just big and wealthy families like that in Japan". But no, a family having a Head of the Family like that in modern day Japan is really odd. Family members having to ask the Head of the Family if they are allowed to marry (not just getting their blessing but explicitly getting permission and not being allowed to if they say no, which is what was happening) is odd. A family being that huge is odd. It's all very odd, so it's supposed to make you wonder why and how this family exists and wonder, as you did, why no one fights back.
In my heart, I would like to believe that viewers who are more resistant to this and wondering how this makes sense or how any of this is justified are going to enjoy the story more in the long run than viewers who are just immediately going "oh yeah, that was tragic" - at least, as long as they stick with it.

You make some good points, thanks for the well-written reply. :) Personally though I have to disagree with you on one bit - that the show is doing "its job". This episode was clearly meant to have emotional weight and enamor us to Hatori and his ex and their story, it was set-up in such a way that we were meant to "dislike" him in the lead up to this episode (what with that threatening call, the warnings that were given about him and his general attitude to the characters we like), NOT continuing past this episode. This episode had the intentions of pulling the curtain and making him sympathetic in the usual twist, and it failed at those things just because of how much it's left me questioning and bewildered. I don't see many ways, at least for me, where such a complete lack of response would be justified and the way they went about things believable--especially in how quickly they changed and completely gave up, or how the girl was suddenly completely and utterly "broken" (though I'll be very happy if I'm proven wrong!).
On the bit about certain parts of Japanese culture not coming through, you make a good point I guess (though I'd argue that's the case with most anime--culture and custom nearly always play a role in the series and films, and they will always confuse some of the foreign audience), though if it were in reference to me here I can say that it doesn't apply, so don't worry.

fiza_imran said:

Well yes tohru is really positive almost to the point that it's annoying but i can assure you that is exactly the reason why she can help the sohmas. If it was anyone else she would've ended up like kana. I don't mind the philosophical elements, i think it's nice change of pace from the usual animes with tournament arcs and fighting. Slice of life anime usually have these elements.
Not to mention we barely spend any time with kana and her character who knows what could've happened in the past to make her so broken. We basically just got the gist of it. And about hatori without spoiling there's a valid reason for it.

I know you may be confused with all of this But if you can be patient i assure you the show is worth. Everything will be revealed about the curse and the anime will become darker in the latter half. So as a manga reader if you're interested in the story i would recommend you to continue but it's up to you.

It's not impossible to write a super positive character well and have them be believable mate. And you don't need constant, awful, out-of-place, contrived moral monologuing to do it. You can actually rely to some degree on showing/illustrating these attitudes and ideas instead of just constantly relying on telling through dialogue w/o any degree of subtlety or nuance. I have no problem with her character being as positive as she is--I've seen plenty in anime--I have a problem with how that's written and portrayed.
"If it was anyone else she would've ended up like kana." damn if only someone had told Kana that all she needed to do was be really annoying and constantly talk as if some god awful author were constantly jamming all of her personal philosophies and beliefs out of her throat every possible chance that arises, and act as a contrived, badly written mouthpiece instead of like an actual, believable character. ;P
And we've spent literally over half a cour with her now... How is that "barely any time"? Is your experience with anime limited to One Piece haha?
"But if you can be patient i assure you the show is worth" Don't worry, I plan on sticking with it. And I hope it is. :) Apparently there's probably going to be like 3 whole, 24ep seasons of this so it definitely has plenty of time.

Alex82829290 said:

the fact that he didn't fight back it's because of the curse, it's not that he doesn't want to protect her, he can't even if he tried. But you'll know more soon enough so you won't have complains like this and memory loss is an actual problem that can happen like amnesia via an incident or something like that so yeah

Read up if you want - that holds little bearing on my actual criticism even if it ends up being the case. And it's not like my complaints were limited to just that anyway... And did I really have to include a disclaimer about freak accidents and conditions for you? Yeah okay, the 0.whatever% of people that applies to really invalidates my point.
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May 19, 2019 3:17 PM
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Zaugr said:
Lain666 said:
The problem I see with this is that wouldn't there be people who remember that Kana had a relationship with Hatori and find it super strange that she suddenly remembers nothing? Like her parents?

That's a good point. I guess she just had no close friends whatsoever lol, and even though they were very close to marriage and had been together for long time and were really in enamored with each other,, they never even spoke about it to anyone, not even her parents.... Or the guy did a whole bunch of investigative memory wiping, though that leads to even more questions doesn't it...
Hmm, I think maybe the writing for this just isn't that solid. :P

thebond_thecurse said:

Hey, all I can say is the story is doing its job if it's making you wonder how and why the hell characters are letting such outrageous abuse just slide.
I do think there is ... hmm, some cultural nuance non-Japanese viewers might not pick up on. I mean, the story is understandable without it but it might make it richer and easier to understand more quickly with it ... I think a lot of non-Japanese fans take some aspects of the Sohma for granted, like yes they know they're a bit odd and out of place but not the true extent to which they are. Maybe they think, "oh, there are just big and wealthy families like that in Japan". But no, a family having a Head of the Family like that in modern day Japan is really odd. Family members having to ask the Head of the Family if they are allowed to marry (not just getting their blessing but explicitly getting permission and not being allowed to if they say no, which is what was happening) is odd. A family being that huge is odd. It's all very odd, so it's supposed to make you wonder why and how this family exists and wonder, as you did, why no one fights back.
In my heart, I would like to believe that viewers who are more resistant to this and wondering how this makes sense or how any of this is justified are going to enjoy the story more in the long run than viewers who are just immediately going "oh yeah, that was tragic" - at least, as long as they stick with it.

You make some good points, thanks for the well-written reply. :) Personally though I have to disagree with you on one bit - that the show is doing "its job". This episode was clearly meant to have emotional weight and enamor us to Hatori and his ex and their story, it was set-up in such a way that we were meant to "dislike" him in the lead up to this episode (what with that threatening call, the warnings that were given about him and his general attitude to the characters we like), NOT continuing past this episode. This episode had the intentions of pulling the curtain and making him sympathetic in the usual twist, and it failed at those things just because of how much it's left me questioning and bewildered. I don't see many ways, at least for me, where such a complete lack of response would be justified and the way they went about things believable--especially in how quickly they changed and completely gave up, or how the girl was suddenly completely and utterly "broken" (though I'll be very happy if I'm proven wrong!).
On the bit about certain parts of Japanese culture not coming through, you make a good point I guess (though I'd argue that's the case with most anime--culture and custom nearly always play a role in the series and films, and they will always confuse some of the foreign audience), though if it were in reference to me here I can say that it doesn't apply, so don't worry.

fiza_imran said:

Well yes tohru is really positive almost to the point that it's annoying but i can assure you that is exactly the reason why she can help the sohmas. If it was anyone else she would've ended up like kana. I don't mind the philosophical elements, i think it's nice change of pace from the usual animes with tournament arcs and fighting. Slice of life anime usually have these elements.
Not to mention we barely spend any time with kana and her character who knows what could've happened in the past to make her so broken. We basically just got the gist of it. And about hatori without spoiling there's a valid reason for it.

I know you may be confused with all of this But if you can be patient i assure you the show is worth. Everything will be revealed about the curse and the anime will become darker in the latter half. So as a manga reader if you're interested in the story i would recommend you to continue but it's up to you.

It's not impossible to write a super positive character well and have them be believable mate. And you don't need constant, awful, out-of-place, contrived moral monologuing to do it. I have no problem with her character being as positive as she is--I've seen plenty in anime--I have a problem with how that's written and portrayed.
"If it was anyone else she would've ended up like kana." damn if only someone had told Kana that all she needed to do was be really annoying and constantly talk as if some god awful author were constantly jamming all of her personal philosophies and beliefs out of her throat every possible chance that arises, and act as a contrived, badly written mouthpiece instead of like an actual, believable character. ;P
And we've spent literally over half a cour with her now... How is that "barely any time"? Is your experience with anime limited to One Piece haha?
"But if you can be patient i assure you the show is worth" Don't worry, I plan on sticking with it. And I hope it is. :) Apparently there's probably going to be like 3 whole, 24ep seasons of this so it definitely has plenty of time.

Alex82829290 said:

the fact that he didn't fight back it's because of the curse, it's not that he doesn't want to protect her, he can't even if he tried. But you'll know more soon enough so you won't have complains like this and memory loss is an actual problem that can happen like amnesia via an incident or something like that so yeah

Read up if you want - that holds little bearing on my actual criticism even if it ends up being the case. And it's not like my complaints were limited to just that anyway... And did I really have to include a disclaimer about freak accidents and conditions for you? Yeah okay, the 0.whatever% of people that applies to really invalidates my point.


The point about barely spending anytime with her is about kana and i haven't even watched one piece nor have any plans of picking it up anytime soon.

Second of all you can always just drop the anime if you can't even bear tohru i mean what's the point of it if you don't like the protagonist, you'll just keep finding problems till the end and then you'll be dissapointed. Also this is a shoujo they usually have females like this. Since i'm a girl i've watched enough to get used to the "all perfect protagonist" trope so i doesn't really bother me.
 
May 19, 2019 3:59 PM

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fiza_imran said:



On the Kana part - my bad. It's late for me right now and I think I got confused in replying to all the different people with different points lol, I should have made sure I'd fully read your response, sorry. You make a good point there then, but not really one I hadn't already acknowledged in my original comment... To reiterate, I know I haven't got the full picture yet, my problems are largely with what the show has given me now, and how it's delivered it and how that's working for me. The show had been setting up Kana as an emotionally strong character, and for her to break so completely over what it showed us? Sure, you could argue then that there's an obvious implication of there being more than meets the eye, but the show and Hatori literally said that's what broke her character--him getting punched in the eye and her blaming herself for him ending up losing some of his eyesight. That's what caused her to completely break, become mentally ill, and abandon the whole relationship - that end result. And I don't buy that at all, and it certainly didn't end up very compelling for me as a result.
You can talk all you want about future events and how this ties into them, but that changes nothing for how this current episode has failed for me right now in writing. There's a lot of different ways it could have still gone about this regardless of plot points.

"Second of all you can always just drop the anime if you can't even bear tohru i mean what's the point of it if you don't like the protagonist, you'll just keep finding problems till the end and then you'll be dissapointed. "
Thanks that's very helpful, I had no idea I had the option to drop it, wow...
As for what's the "point" in continuing if I'm not currently enjoying the protagonist - there's A WHOLE LOT of other things one can love and grow to love about a show other than just the protagonist... What kind of dumb point is this? Why try and define and limit what another can appreciate about a show? I've watched and liked plenty of shows where I didn't like the protagonist. Because there's antagonists, there's side characters, there's production values, the music, the plot, how it executes on it's themes, genres... This is just about the worse point you could have made here.
And in me saying I've seen a lot of the protag already, I didn't mean to imply I'm not open to the possibility of her still improving and growing on me. I did take note of the fact that there's probably going to be over 50 more episodes of this... Chill.

" Also this is a shoujo they usually have females like this. Since i'm a girl i've watched enough to get used to the "all perfect protagonist" trope so i doesn't really bother me."
Actually I take that last bit back, this is the worst point you could tried to make... I don't know why you think experience with shojo material is limited to just girls, or why you think the fact that you're a girl suddenly implies you have said experience by default, but no. You're absolutely wrong. Even if that were the case and the "perfect protag" trope were especially common in the shojo genre (which I don't believe it is - that is a common bad writing trope in every genre), it still fails completely as a justification for said bad writing. You can't point to other things and say "hey! look! they do it too!" as an excuse. That's a rather obvious fallacy with no actual points.

And the One Piece thing was a joke by the way. I could obviously have checked your list in one click if I were trying to make a serious point.. And please, please, sort your quotes out. You don't need to quote absolutely everything, that makes it an ugly wall of text, shorten it a bit. You can cut bits out (like other people's messages...) and change it and it'll still act as a quote, and it'll still notify the other person. You could also put it into spoilers, like I've done here.
Modified by Zaugr, May 19, 2019 4:06 PM
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May 19, 2019 4:58 PM
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[quote=Zaugr]
fiza_imran said:



"Second of all you can always just drop the anime if you can't even bear tohru i mean what's the point of it if you don't like the protagonist, you'll just keep finding problems till the end and then you'll be dissapointed. "
Thanks that's very helpful, I had no idea I had the option to drop it, wow...
As for what's the "point" in continuing if I'm not currently enjoying the protagonist - there's A WHOLE LOT of other things one can love and grow to love about a show other than just the protagonist... What kind of dumb point is this?
Zaugr said:
fiza_imran said:




"Second of all you can always just drop the anime if you can't even bear tohru i mean what's the point of it if you don't like the protagonist, you'll just keep finding problems till the end and then you'll be dissapointed. "
Thanks that's very helpful, I had no idea I had the option to drop it, wow...
As for what's the "point" in continuing if I'm not currently enjoying the protagonist - there's A WHOLE LOT of other things one can love and grow to love about a show other than just the protagonist... What kind of dumb point is this? Why try and define and limit what another can appreciate about a show? I've watched and liked plenty of shows where I didn't like the protagonist. Because there's antagonists, there's side characters, there's production values, the music, the plot, how it executes on it's themes, genres... This is just about the worse point you could have made here.
And in me saying I've seen a lot of the protag already, I didn't mean to imply I'm not open to the possibility of her still improving and growing on me.

" Also this is a shoujo they usually have females like this. Since i'm a girl i've watched enough to get used to the "all perfect protagonist" trope so i doesn't really bother me."
Actually I take that last bit back, this is the worst point you could tried to make... I don't know why you think experience with shojo material is limited to just girls, or why you think the fact that you're a girl suddenly implies you have said experience by default, but no. You're absolutely wrong. Even if that were the case and the "perfect protag" trope were especially common in the shojo genre (which I don't believe it is - that is a common bad writing trope in every genre), it still fails completely as a justification for said bad writing. You can't point to other things and say "hey! look! they do it too!" as an excuse. That's a rather obvious fallacy with no actual points.


" Also this is a shoujo they usually have females like this. Since i'm a girl i've watched enough to get used to the "all perfect protagonist" trope so i doesn't really bother me."
Actually I take that last bit back, this is the worst point you could tried to make... I don't know why you think experience with shojo material is limited to just girls, or why you think the fact that you're a girl suddenly implies you have said experience by default, but no. You're absolutely wrong. Even if that were the case and the "perfect protag" trope were especially common in the shojo genre (which I don't believe it is - that is a common bad writing trope in every genre), it still fails completely as a justification for said bad writing. You can't point to other things and say "hey! look! they do it too!" as an excuse. That's a rather obvious fallacy with no actual points.

And please, please, sort your quotes out. You don't need to quote absolutely everything, that makes it an ugly wall of text, shorten it a bit. You can cut bits out (like other people's messages...) and change it and it'll still act as a quote



Oh my bad i'm really new to this site so i didn't know about the quote thing, idk if i'm doing it right?
And the dropping thing was a genuine suggestion i know quite a few anime that got ruined (for me atleast) because of the protagonist but we all have different preferences i guess it was wrong of me to force that point on you.

Lastly ofcourse i don't know you as a person nor your taste so the first thing i assumed was that maybe you're reluctant because it's shoujo a lot of people who watch shoujo have the same complain of the protagonist being too perfect so i assumed you had the same problem. You would be surprised to see how often that happens.
With fruits basket it's the same, new watchers are coming in with different expectations some expect full on romance and some expect this epic show because of the hype.

I saw a few people dropping it because it's "girly" or whatever idk what they were expecting and the comments are all the same so i thought you were the same which i apologize for.

About the gender thing maybe i said it wrong but i meant that i've read and watched too many shoujo that the things that tohru does don't really bother me in fact i hardly notice until an outsider points it. And i'm not saying it's a flaw, this trope is really common in shoujo specially (atleast from what i've seen) so it was fair of me to bring up that point. like i said before i hardly know you so i'm not really aware of your preferences or such. So i just made the most common point.

Forgive me for not making an strong points obviously i was never on the debate team if i was maybe i could've convinced you.

Lol commenting was a mistake idk what i'm trying to do when i mess up all my words.
Have a good day or night.
 
May 19, 2019 7:41 PM
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KomaDoll said:

This convo made me think a bit this. I actually agree even after reading the manga that I don't think simply curse explains how Soma family works and it's members behave and accept Akito's, well abuse. Like it's not like Akito has some kind of superpower over them, at least i never got that impression, it's not like they really have to listen and they can't make choice to defend or try to defend themselves.


Actually,


KomaDoll said:
But actually just keeping on things we have seen in anime so far there is actually Somas that stand up against Akito and Akito's wishes.


And that's why


KomaDoll said:

The reasons why Soma's and zodiacs put off with the "curse" and Akito's abusiveness to me is mixture of things. One of them is the actual curse,
. Another to me is tradition, accepting that this is how it has always been and will be for them, that it's their role and duty. Then there is family relations and rules of community- you want to have good relations with ur family and if you don't follow what the people in position of authority say- like family head like Akito- you will get ostracized and could even get punished in some way. And I think the last one of them is abuse itself and psychological damage it brings.


Well, yeah, the
 
May 19, 2019 8:08 PM
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Zaugr said:
Lain666 said:
The problem I see with this is that wouldn't there be people who remember that Kana had a relationship with Hatori and find it super strange that she suddenly remembers nothing? Like her parents?

That's a good point. I guess she just had no close friends whatsoever lol, and even though they were very close to marriage and had been together for long time and were really in enamored with each other,, they never even spoke about it to anyone, not even her parents.... Or the guy did a whole bunch of investigative memory wiping, though that leads to even more questions doesn't it...
Hmm, I think maybe the writing for this just isn't that solid. :P


Well, the writing is solid, cause that's going to be explained :P

Okay, I completely understand your point that it is kind of weak writing that the story expects you to have a strong emotional pull to Hatori and Kana's story when so much of it is confusing and we haven't known Hatori's character for too long. I never had a strong emotional connection to this story even as an avid manga fan, and have felt like a black sheep among so many other fans who cry over this storyline. I think part of that is a fault of the anime - I don't think the manga presents it as emotionally as either anime adaptation does (most fans I know who cry so terribly over it saw the 2001 anime before reading the manga - I read the manga first). I think Takaya (the mangaka) introduced the story mainly for the point of furthering plot intrigue, and not so much for the emotionality itself. In fact, I think I remember Takaya saying in a side column or interview that she was surprised by how popular Hatori's character was after that. Hell, I do definitely know she said she was surprised by how immediately popular Kyo's character was because she didn't expect people to empathize with him until she'd revealed more about him.

I also think part of it is simply that the writing IS "weaker" at this early point in the story. I'm sorry but I truly don't understand the other people in this thread who have been saying "if you don't like the story now you won't like it ever, so might as well drop it cause the story doesn't change". It does change. The story was being written for nearly a decade, is 23 volumes long total, of course the writer got better (and her art got better, too!) - the story only two volumes in is still finding its feet, its tone, its overall writing skill. I will admit, there are moral monologues in the early volumes of Furuba that can be kind of annoying - but they completely disappear after a certain point in the story! Takaya ends up writing really, really (imho) brilliant inner dialogues about people's feelings and traumas and resolves that don't involve a moral platitude at the end, and that is when the strength and depth of her writing and storytelling and character development really starts to show.

So, yeah, I think you're right - emotionally the writing is not at its strong point. I think the anime is adapting it straight because of a degree of respect for the work as a whole and where it comes from and the author's original vision (bumps along the way and all included). I think some of us manga fans get defensive when this is pointed out because we know how brilliant the writing is going to become (and how even when the writing itself wasn't so strong early on, the overall character & plot threads were still being laid rather flawlessly ... + the art/paneling is simply amazing, but that doesn't translate to an adaptation of course). So people being dismissive (including some manga fans, which I don't understand) that the writing is weaker now, so it won't get better and they won't like this story can be quite frustrating. I don't think you're necessarily doing that though.

Now, the thing I don't understand is saying the writing is weak solely because of things that haven't been explained yet. The expectation of high level emotional investment, yes, but stuff like that the memory suppression doesn't make sense because people around her wouldn't know she got her memory suppressed and would think it was strange - well, you don't know exactly how things like memory suppression in this family works just yet and you're not supposed to. Or that you don't know what the curse is and you don't understand why Hatori didn't blame Akito - you're not supposed to yet. So yeah, go ahead and say that the lack of explanation makes it hard to have emotional investment or empathy for Hatori's story, but don't say that the lack of explanation in of itself is bad writing.
Modified by thebond_thecurse, May 19, 2019 8:14 PM
 
May 20, 2019 1:12 AM
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As someone who's only watched the original anime before this adaptation, I can't really say which one did Hatori and Kana's beautifully tragic love story better.
I don't exactly like how Tooru started crying and told Momiji how kind Hatori was before we, the viewers got the full picture. Idk it felt...awkward. In the original, the backstory between them felt like Tooru was getting the same picture we were as Momiji was telling her (I could be totally wrong, I haven't watched Furuba in so long. Please correct me if so!) BUT this version seems better fitting. It makes sense as to why Momiji's telling was rushed, and why Hatori's was more fleshed out. I loved it.

For all those who thinks it's convenient for Kana to show up right there:
In the anime, it clearly shows that who she was talking to, they were catching up, like as if she hasn't been home in awhile; so yeah them walking around chatting isn't all that ridiculous. Plus, to me, Hatori always seemed like someone who stays where he's at and leaves if necessary. He doesn't seem like the person to be walking all around the estate whenever, especially if he's at the clinic full-time.

Also, during the scene where their begging for Akito's permission to be married, I saw that a lot of people where glossing over the fact that Akito was yelling "It's your fault! It's all your fault!" to her, after being assaulted and while seeing the man she loved bloody. That would be traumatizing(for me at least..) and I don't think Kana was supposed to be portrayed as someone who's super emotionally strong... Yes, she accepted Hatori being in the zodiac, but where are any other examples? She just seemed very understanding/empathetic, is all.

I've more points but I think I'm done rambling about this episode..I liked it a lot. I can't wait for the next member of the zodiac to be shown! He's my favorite..I fucking love him.
Two more things...



 
May 20, 2019 2:34 AM
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thebond_thecurse said:
FuMomo-kun said:
Is there a seahorse in Chinese zodiac?


He's the Dragon. In Japanese a seahorse is sometimes called "the dragon's bastard offspring". There's actually an in-story explanation for why he turns into a seahorse and not a dragon, but it's spoilers territory.
In the description it says that the seahorse is a curse!
 
May 20, 2019 2:54 AM

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Loved this episode, it was probably the first manga chapter that really got me hooked into the series.


 
May 20, 2019 4:58 AM
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SleepySenpaiSama said:



It's a big spoiler for an intentional twist in the manga, so proceed with caution, but if you really want to know
 
May 20, 2019 6:02 AM

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I feel so bad for Hatori! I hope he can find happiness somehow
 
May 20, 2019 6:27 AM

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fiza_imran said:


Not quite, but thanks for the effort. :) Try putting "[(removethisbitandthespaces)spoiler]" after the very first "[quote =user message]" bit in your message, and put "[ /spoiler]" right before the final "[ /quote]", though if you don't want to do that you can just delete everything inconsequential in the quote and shorten it that way. And I get your point, and I agree in part--some people definitely do come to stuff like this with the wrong expectations, and shojo stuff just won't work for everyone, exactly like how shonen doesn't work for everyone either. And there definitely is genre-specific tropes of course. But these are obvious things that you shouldn't really make generalizations with, they don't apply to me or even the majority of those with issues here I think. No need to apologize by the way, I get why you might have thought those things now.
"And i'm not saying it's a flaw, this trope is really common in shoujo specially" - so you don't think the "perfect protagonist" trope is a flaw? Why? You gotta give reasons other than it just being a common trope, as I said that's no justification.
" Forgive me for not making an strong points obviously i was never on the debate team if i was maybe i could've convinced you. " haha, my bad. I'm always way too quick in taking up a very defensive position in these things (too used to bad/childish internet arguments), and as such I tend to structure and go about them as debates.
Have a good day too, and thanks for surprisingly nice response. :)

thebond_thecurse said:


Thanks for the well written response, you've made me a bit more hopeful in this improving, and you make a good point in this only having adapted 2~ volumes, and those 2 volumes not necessarily being representative of the author's skill throughout the (in this case long running) series as a whole. A lot of people always tend to miss that concept in these discussions. To be honest I think we see eye to eye on just about everything lol, including that last part. On "but don't say that the lack of explanation in of itself is bad writing. " - I don't think I ever did say that? And if I did, I certainly didn't mean to. I thought I had made it pretty clear that my complaint here was more that the way it was illustrated and has been set up makes it hard to have emotional investment and empathy for the characters--and that I find how the author chose to go about it all to be badly written. I never once said I had issues specifically with the lack of explanation itself.
Modified by Zaugr, May 20, 2019 6:49 AM
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May 20, 2019 7:27 AM
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Kimurah said:
Amyyw said:


I didn't said it wasn't, I said that "it's not THAT convenient" since, like I said before, they are from the clan and they were in front of their clan's house.. also, its almost New Year and Momiji said that the outside people help them prepare for it so there's that x)



That's the problem, you're just "downplaying" the convenient writing by saying "NOT THAT". It is PRETTY CONVENIENT no matter how you see it. They live in the same Sohma state, and no matter how big it is, they could have bumped at least once or twice in a period of 2 years. But no, they bump up right after Haru gets his screenntime just in time to get his wish fullfilled of her getting a new man.

Amyyw said:



Here you have it.. yes the dialogue is a little bit different but the event where she appears behind him while he's sitting on a bench is exactly like in the manga...





Ok, you win on this one.

Amyyw said:



But there are SOME that are though...


Just because some of them are convenient doesn't mean that it's a trait of an era. Bad and contrived writing exists on all periods.



Wonder why they didn't bother to include that she was living in Tokyo for past 2 or so years and left it so it seems like she's been living there without bumping Into each other Epically since they helps out at the festival 🤔 .( I read the chapter for this a few mins ago)

For the remake wouldn't it have been better if they changed it so that hotori was watching over her from a distance if they are implying that she stayed in the estate insted of not seeing her after x amount of time without seeing her or bumping into her



Was going to watch the original but someone said kana wasn't in the original ?
Modified by Mattinator95, May 20, 2019 10:33 AM
 
May 20, 2019 8:20 AM
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Mattinator95 said:
Kimurah said:


That's the problem, you're just "downplaying" the convenient writing by saying "NOT THAT". It is PRETTY CONVENIENT no matter how you see it. They live in the same Sohma state, and no matter how big it is, they could have bumped at least once or twice in a period of 2 years. But no, they bump up right after Haru gets his screenntime just in time to get his wish fullfilled of her getting a new man.



Ok, you win on this one.



Just because some of them are convenient doesn't mean that it's a trait of an era. Bad and contrived writing exists on all periods.



Wonder why they didn't bother to include that she was living in Tokyo for past 2 or so years and left it so it seems like she's been living there without bumping Into each other Epically since they helps out at the festival 🤔 .( I read the chapter for this a few mins ago)

Was going to watch the original but someone said kana wasn't in the original ?

Kana is in the original, there's an episode dedicated to them as well.
 
May 20, 2019 12:19 PM

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fiza_imran said:

Second of all you can always just drop the anime if you can't even bear tohru i mean what's the point of it if you don't like the protagonist, you'll just keep finding problems till the end and then you'll be dissapointed. Also this is a shoujo they usually have females like this. Since i'm a girl i've watched enough to get used to the "all perfect protagonist" trope so i doesn't really bother me.

I read this manga years ago despite Tohru annoying me to no end with her speeches, so I can confirm that getting through this story is totally possible even if you don't like the protagonist. I was just reading it for other characters like Shigure and Akito.

thebond_thecurse said:
I also think part of it is simply that the writing IS "weaker" at this early point in the story.

I wonder about it, I know there are people like me who never bought that a certain plot twist was planned from the beginning and some developments left me roll my eyes.

thebond_thecurse said:
Well, the writing is solid, cause that's going to be explained :P

Manga spoiler
Modified by Lain666, May 20, 2019 12:23 PM
"The moment one sits down to think, one becomes all nose, or all forehead, or something horrid. Look at the successful men in any of the learned professions. How perfectly hideous they are! Except, of course, in the Church. But then in the Church they don't think. A bishop keeps on saying at the age of eighty what he was told to say when he was a boy of eighteen, and as a natural consequence he always looks absolutely delightful."
 
May 20, 2019 1:08 PM

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thebond_thecurse said:
KomaDoll said:

This convo made me think a bit this. I actually agree even after reading the manga that I don't think simply curse explains how Soma family works and it's members behave and accept Akito's, well abuse. Like it's not like Akito has some kind of superpower over them, at least i never got that impression, it's not like they really have to listen and they can't make choice to defend or try to defend themselves.


Actually,


KomaDoll said:
But actually just keeping on things we have seen in anime so far there is actually Somas that stand up against Akito and Akito's wishes.


And that's why


KomaDoll said:

The reasons why Soma's and zodiacs put off with the "curse" and Akito's abusiveness to me is mixture of things. One of them is the actual curse,
. Another to me is tradition, accepting that this is how it has always been and will be for them, that it's their role and duty. Then there is family relations and rules of community- you want to have good relations with ur family and if you don't follow what the people in position of authority say- like family head like Akito- you will get ostracized and could even get punished in some way. And I think the last one of them is abuse itself and psychological damage it brings.


Well, yeah, the


I'm not trying to say that the curse isn't factor at all, but i think it's simply one of the factors and it's not sth the zodiac couldn't fight against. Like there is some fantasy elements in Furuba sure, but it's not exactly mind-control or sth like that you would see in more of fantasy anime. I think it's good to think of other factors as well that add to the drama part of the show and make it more deep anyways than things being explained by sth supernatural like curse. That's my take on it at least, to me curse or not- the behavior of the characters is understable and despite curse there is different ways Somas try to deal with Akito from accepting the status Akito's authority to fighting it.

 
May 20, 2019 3:24 PM

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Another episode that failed to touch my emotions like the old series did. I'm sad, I was looking forward to this one because it was one of my favourites. Hatori is my favourite character. The new VA isn't doing him justice, sadly, he's too monotone, and lacks gentleness.
90s J-rock is the peak of human culture.
 
May 20, 2019 4:46 PM

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Hatori backstory is always so sad. It was cute that now he's in the ending too
 
May 20, 2019 5:35 PM

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OMG!!!!! This is so sad!!! :(
I really don't like tragic ending, it breaks my heart :( Akito is so bad! :(
 
May 20, 2019 7:27 PM

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Another thing that hasn't aged well at all is the whole I hope he didn't sexually harass you~! and similar "comedy gag" one-liners.

I know it's still a thing that is said in across the board in series but it's one of those things you hope would cease to exist.

»mrc
 
May 21, 2019 2:33 AM
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This version is better than the old one since it's adapting the manga more faithfully and accurately than the original one which had a lot of adds and fillers. The 2001 version was full of fillers content and made the story way more childish and peaceful than it actually is. While this version is not exaggerating the funny-happy side of the story, so it's better. As a fan of the MANGA, I prefer this version because I feel like I'm really watching an adaptation of it, while the first version made me more upset and frustrated than anymore, with all these stupid adds.
 
May 21, 2019 6:10 AM

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Daeny-Nini said:
This version is better than the old one since it's adapting the manga more faithfully and accurately than the original one which had a lot of adds and fillers. The 2001 version was full of fillers content and made the story way more childish and peaceful than it actually is. While this version is not exaggerating the funny-happy side of the story, so it's better. As a fan of the MANGA


Seriously, fanboys should stop putting mangoes in a pedestal and claim that adaptations are better if they are 100% faithful. This episode along with episode 5 are proof that contrived and rushed writing can be fixed with a well thought adaptation, wich is what the 2001 was, it fixed Takaya's bad writing passages.

Takaya's humor is also pretty stale, she's obviously not a comedic writer. And what's the point of adding funny scenes if most of them are just misses or childish jokes that will provide a few snorts and/or giggles. The 2001 adaptation enhanced the punchlines and the comedic timming, having these tunned in properly is what created peaks and valleys in a wide spectrum of emotions, wich very few series can actually pull off (I'm looking at you Kono Otomare and your jarring mood shifts).

Also, seriously, how can you claim that this new adaptation is being more faithful to the mango, if it's also changing plenty of stuff from the source? like Kyo's fanservice shower scene, Kagura's trip to the convenience store, Yuki less androgynous design, the second point of view of Kyo & Yuki when they were looking out for Tohru's Gramps house, Hatori erasing Kana's memory in the middle of a street, and so on.

Daeny-Nini said:
I prefer this version because I feel like I'm really watching an adaptation of it, while the first version made me more upset and frustrated than anymore, with all these stupid adds.


An adaptation isn't a 1:1 carbon copy of a source, it's called adaptation because it "adapts" or makes changes of a source from one medium to a different one fitting the assets of this other medium, like adding sound, voice, color and animation among others. If adaptations were meant to be 1:1 they wouldn't be called adaptations, but "translations"
Modified by Kimurah, May 21, 2019 6:14 AM
 
May 21, 2019 8:14 AM

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Great episode, it was sad
Hatori smile, wishing Kana happiness towards the end hit hard ;-;

I agree with some people who said Hatori's voice is monotonous
I loved his sigh tho lol


sakibear said:

FUCKING MOMIJI’S VOICE IS GOD AWFUL I THOUGHT IT WOULD GROW ON ME BUT IT STILL HASN’T. ;-; MY BABY BOY

I actually don't hate his voice but... I HATE HIS GERMAN, like PLS STOP SPEAKING GERMAN-
 
May 21, 2019 4:02 PM
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Kimurah said:
Daeny-Nini said:
This version is better than the old one since it's adapting the manga more faithfully and accurately than the original one which had a lot of adds and fillers. The 2001 version was full of fillers content and made the story way more childish and peaceful than it actually is. While this version is not exaggerating the funny-happy side of the story, so it's better. As a fan of the MANGA


Seriously, fanboys should stop putting mangoes in a pedestal and claim that adaptations are better if they are 100% faithful. This episode along with episode 5 are proof that contrived and rushed writing can be fixed with a well thought adaptation, wich is what the 2001 was, it fixed Takaya's bad writing passages.

Takaya's humor is also pretty stale, she's obviously not a comedic writer. And what's the point of adding funny scenes if most of them are just misses or childish jokes that will provide a few snorts and/or giggles. The 2001 adaptation enhanced the punchlines and the comedic timming, having these tunned in properly is what created peaks and valleys in a wide spectrum of emotions, wich very few series can actually pull off (I'm looking at you Kono Otomare and your jarring mood shifts).

Also, seriously, how can you claim that this new adaptation is being more faithful to the mango, if it's also changing plenty of stuff from the source? like Kyo's fanservice shower scene, Kagura's trip to the convenience store, Yuki less androgynous design, the second point of view of Kyo & Yuki when they were looking out for Tohru's Gramps house, Hatori erasing Kana's memory in the middle of a street, and so on.

Daeny-Nini said:
I prefer this version because I feel like I'm really watching an adaptation of it, while the first version made me more upset and frustrated than anymore, with all these stupid adds.


An adaptation isn't a 1:1 carbon copy of a source, it's called adaptation because it "adapts" or makes changes of a source from one medium to a different one fitting the assets of this other medium, like adding sound, voice, color and animation among others. If adaptations were meant to be 1:1 they wouldn't be called adaptations, but "translations"


Your message made me laugh. The first version is full of bad writings, stupid fillers and cringy adds. They made the story more childish, they made the characters more superficial and stupid, they made some plotlines ridiculous. The character of Yuki was completely ruined in the 2001 version and it was reaaally slow. The pacing was just completely bad... This version is better not just because its adapting faithfully the manga, but because the manga is better than the 2001 anime in EVERY ways, so since this version is more faithful to the manga than the 2001 version, it's obviousely better. It's not completely the same, there's some differencies, but these differencies don't ruin the story and the rhythm, unlike the first one adding funny and childish moments in every fucking episodes. So move on if you don't know shit about what you're talking about. You know nothing about what "bad writing" is if you really think the 2001 version has a better writing. :)))

Also, even the mangaka of Fruits Basket hated the first version because she thought they made some of her characters way too different and minimized tha psycologic and dramatic side of the story. The 2001 anime was just a funny show with some drama, while the manga is a drama show with some funny stuffs, that's the difference. Of course being different doesn't make it better or worse, but the execution of some things in the 2001 version is just completely messed up. This version has a better pacing, way more potential since they wnt to be closer to the manga than the previous version, which is great since the manga is better, more ambitious, and has way better graphics, but well the last one is not fair since the manga and first anime came 19-20 years ago. But still this is much more enjoyable, the graphics of the first anime were just horrible and completely absurd. The manga isn't really better in this category, but seems less unrealistic than the anime, even tho it's still kind of silly here too. The voices didn't fit the characters well in the 2001, especially Yuki, so even in this area the 2019 version is better. Also, the 2019 version will adapt the whole manga, and the last part of the story is BY FAR the best part, the most interesting and entertaining one, so after the end of the new version, it will be unbeatable. Exactly like for Fullmetal Alchemist, everybody's gonna like the new version better because it will adapt the whole story and end it, unlike the first one. Just deal with it, this version will be more famous and popular. Sorry not sorry.
No need to respond me, I won't watch it since I'm not active on MAL (I'm not english, I just come here sometimes for news).

Oh and just to let you know, the first version adapted only 20% of the manga, and these 20% represent literally the least good part of the story. LOL
Modified by Daeny-Nini, May 21, 2019 4:33 PM
 
May 21, 2019 7:04 PM

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As much as I’d love to have a good opinion of this episode, which is my ultimate favorite in the original series, it is really hard to do so. What a waste of such a good story. There is definitely a problem with how the music is used in this new version of Fruits Basket. I’d say, it was done perfectly in the original show. All the scenes are so well matched with music, which in turn intensifies the emotional response of the audience. Sadly, both in the 2019 version in general (with the exception of episode 5) and this episode in particular, so many emotionally rich moments are lessened to ordinary scenes due to lack of transition and fitting soundtrack. I am not moved the way I always am in the Hatori episode of the original series.

As a dub person, I also do not find Momiji’s voice very successful. It lacks the depth his character has.

That being said, it is always great to see Hatori and see the story from a slightly different perspective. Looking forward to upcoming episodes!
 
May 21, 2019 9:54 PM
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I can't wait til this adaptation gets past the portions of the manga that was "covered" (loosely as it may have been, cutting out all the important plot elements and changing characterization) by the 2001 anime. Then this version can be judged entirely on its own merit, rather than constantly comparing it to the 2001 version.

And for those who think they are judging it on its own merit who have only seen the 2001 anime, I don't think you truly can. Because even subconsciously, the 2001 adaptation gives you an expectation of how the scene should go, what the scene means, and how it should be portrayed. Sometimes there will be comments like, "The 2019 adaptation was weak here because it didn't convey X" - but X was a thing that was meant to be conveyed in the 2001 adaptation, but maybe not in the 2019 adaptation.

Anyway, I don't think its up to individuals' own faults, I just think it's kind of impossible to truly judge a new adaptation fully on its own legs when you have a point of comparison in your mind always, consciously or subconsciously, that influenced how you see the story overall. I'm just excited to get to the point where this anime will be judged on its own merit as an adaptation only against the original manga, rather than against multiple sources and another adaptation in the same medium. It is too crowded in here now.
 
May 22, 2019 4:57 AM

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Kimurah said:
Amyyw said:


I didn't said it wasn't, I said that "it's not THAT convenient" since, like I said before, they are from the clan and they were in front of their clan's house.. also, its almost New Year and Momiji said that the outside people help them prepare for it so there's that x)



That's the problem, you're just "downplaying" the convenient writing by saying "NOT THAT". It is PRETTY CONVENIENT no matter how you see it. They live in the same Sohma state, and no matter how big it is, they could have bumped at least once or twice in a period of 2 years. But no, they bump up right after Haru gets his screenntime just in time to get his wish fullfilled of her getting a new man.


Hm, ok yes but still.. those kind of situations can happen in real life, no? Has it never happen to you, the whole "speaking of the devil" situation? You talking or thinking about someone and that person appears near or in front of you..?
 
May 22, 2019 6:28 AM

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Posts: 241
Amyyw said:
Kimurah said:


That's the problem, you're just "downplaying" the convenient writing by saying "NOT THAT". It is PRETTY CONVENIENT no matter how you see it. They live in the same Sohma state, and no matter how big it is, they could have bumped at least once or twice in a period of 2 years. But no, they bump up right after Haru gets his screenntime just in time to get his wish fullfilled of her getting a new man.


Hm, ok yes but still.. those kind of situations can happen in real life, no? Has it never happen to you, the whole "speaking of the devil" situation? You talking or thinking about someone and that person appears near or in front of you..?


It happens with people I see on daily basis or regularly, not someone that I haven't seen in TWO FREAKING YEARS. Again, you're just downplaying it with absurd examples. Just accept it's bad contrived writing.
Modified by Kimurah, May 22, 2019 7:32 AM
 
May 22, 2019 7:29 AM

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Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 241
Daeny-Nini said:


Your message made me laugh. The first version is full of bad writings, stupid fillers and cringy adds. They made the story more childish, they made the characters more superficial and stupid, they made some plotlines ridiculous. The character of Yuki was completely ruined in the 2001 version and it was reaaally slow. The pacing was just completely bad...


Is it bad because it has bad writing? (wich you didn't point out specific chapters) or is it bad just because you say so? Let me answer that for you, it's the later, just because you say so without being specific. The 2001 adaptation became a classic, wich means hundreds of thousands of people thought it was great and memorable. If it was as bad and childish as you claim with no actual proof, it wouldn't had had such an impact, it would have been an easily forgotten title, and it wouldn't have created a remake this year.

Daeny-Nini said:

This version is better not just because its adapting faithfully the manga, but because the manga is better than the 2001 anime in EVERY ways, so since this version is more faithful to the manga than the 2001 version, it's obviousely better. It's not completely the same, there's some differencies, but these differencies don't ruin the story and the rhythm, unlike the first one adding funny and childish moments in every fucking episodes. So move on if you don't know shit about what you're talking about.


You're not proving anything, you're just saying it's better because "I say it" you don't expand on anything. You yell that the old adaptation had padding, but you completely disregard and even use your brain to see the flaws of the new added content in the new adaptation.

Yuki & Kyo's POV of the events added nothing on episode 5. The original chapter in the manga was already pretty short and rushed on Tohru's choice. She just moved from the Sohma's house a few hours earlier and now she wants to go back because she feels homesick and she thinks she'll never see the Sohma's again despite them going to the same school. She just nopes out with very little reason, it feels like a kindergarden going to school for the first time saying "I don't want to". The 2001 adpatation fixed this by adding more events, giving enough time for Tohru to think it over and even add events that would resonate and give her a reason to exist in the Sohma's house and not at grampa's like having a hard time finding the dishes or storing gramp's socks in the drawer of the high horsed son. The sequence at school where she greets the sohma's helps out to point that Tohru is still holding up despite being in a new home. Shigure pointing out how much he misses Tohru's cooking and Kyo remembering Tohru while he's on the rooftop all add up to give Yuki & Kyo a good reason to go look out for her the next day. All this is called BUILD UP that helps the cast to make a choice with a good cause. In the new one they are just sitting at the table and suddenly they fell the need to go get Tohru, that's just cheap writing.

Episode 7 is laughable in the opportunistic and terrible writing. Why the heck would Haru erase Kana's memories in the middle of the night, on a street wearing thin clothes while it's snowing? Even previously in that episode Thoru is wearing a full long coat and a muffler to point out how harsh the winter is that place. After Haru erases Kana's memories, what is he going to do with her? will he leave her there lying in the cold floor surrounded by snow in the middle of nowhere? The 2001 adaptation did it behind closed doors in a more intimate atmosphere, if Haru just leaves after he's done with Kana at least she'll wake up in a familiar place, indoors without facing the harsh winter. In the manga and the new adaptation Kana appears 2 years later out of nowhere in the most ridiculously opportunistic spot to give closure to Haru's arc. The 2001 adpatation did the right thing to just leave out that cheesy scene.

In Episode 4 in the new adaptation where Kagura goes to the grocery, she forgets her bag with all her money. Suddenly out of of nowhere Tohru pops out with a wad of a 1000 year bills on her hand a a very tiny coinpurse on the other hand. How the heck can a highschooler that cleans floors for a living carries that much money in such a ridiculously small coinpurse? and how did she know Kagura was pennyless when she was about to pay up at the gorcery? the episode showed us the viewers that Kagura left her bag, but it didn't show Tohru realizing this. That scene was pretty contrived and filled with Takaya's oportunistic signature.

Explain to me like I was five how the heck does Kyo's shower scene help out the storyline or at least it doesn't ruin the rhythm as you claim.

Daeny-Nini said:

Also, even the mangaka of Fruits Basket hated the first version because she thought they made some of her characters way too different and minimized tha psycologic and dramatic side of the story. The 2001 anime was just a funny show with some drama, while the manga is a drama show with some funny stuffs, that's the difference. Of course being different doesn't make it better or worse, but the execution of some things in the 2001 version is just completely messed up.


As I pointed out in my previous paragraphs this remake has some terrible contrived and opportunistic execution and I'm not the only one that has pointed it in these discussion episodes.
On a different subject, if Takaya didn't like chocolate icecream, would you say you hate it too or that it's bad just because she doesn't like it? Piero Manzoni a very polemic artist claimed that not all the stuff and artist creates is actually good, to wich he actually canned his own feces and put it on display.

Daeny-Nini said:

This version has a better pacing, way more potential since they wnt to be closer to the manga than the previous version, which is great since the manga is better, more ambitious, and has way better graphics, but well the last one is not fair since the manga and first anime came 19-20 years ago. But still this is much more enjoyable, the graphics of the first anime were just horrible and completely absurd.


They aren't called graphics you ignorant dumbass, this isn't a videogame. It's called arstyle and animation, and the artstyle in the first adaptation is akin to Takaya's old artstyle from the first volumes of Fruits Basket, she just changed styles later on that is the kind of art the new adaptation is aiming for. In terms of animation (more frames that give a better perception of motion) the old adaptation had more thorough handwork here and there in some scenes, like the Yuki fanclub being animated in a very cartoonish style. The new adaptaion is just average in animation terms.


Daeny-Nini said:

The manga isn't really better in this category, but seems less unrealistic than the anime, even tho it's still kind of silly here too. The voices didn't fit the characters well in the 2001, especially Yuki, so even in this area the 2019 version is better. Also, the 2019 version will adapt the whole manga, and the last part of the story is BY FAR the best part, the most interesting and entertaining one, so after the end of the new version, it will be unbeatable. Exactly like for Fullmetal Alchemist, everybody's gonna like the new version better because it will adapt the whole story and end it, unlike the first one. Just deal with it, this version will be more famous and popular. Sorry not sorry.


Yuki had a more femenine figure and manerisms, a female voice just make a lot of sense to his character in the old adaptation. Compare it to the new adaptation and the jokes of him wearing a dress and everyone calling him a girl just fall flat because he doesn't look like a girl at all. Also seems that you're counting your chickens before they hatch, there are plenty of us who point out these flaws on the new adaptaion and still prefer the old adaptation over it, so no, NOT EVERYONE as you claim will state that we like the new adaptation better. I've even seen peeps claiming that they like the first adaptation of FMA, so you're just delusional and shortsighted with your ridiculous statements.

Daeny-Nini said:

No need to respond me, I won't watch it since I'm not active on MAL (I'm not english, I just come here sometimes for news).

I don't need your permission to quote you and reply with an elaborate response. You can just go back to being a lurker and no one will care about it.

Daeny-Nini said:

Oh and just to let you know, the first version adapted only 20% of the manga, and these 20% represent literally the least good part of the story. LOL

Thank you captain obvious, a lot of us already knew that the 2001 adpatation only covered a small percent of the mango. Anything else?

Daeny-Nini said:
You know nothing about what "bad writing" is if you really think the 2001 version has a better writing. :)))

YUP, you sound like the typical salty butthurt manga fanboy that has no way to prove what bad writing is, but fingerpoints on others.
Modified by Kimurah, May 22, 2019 7:37 AM
 
May 22, 2019 7:55 AM
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I just wanna say that...

If you don't like the anime, don't harass the fans. They just want to enjoy their fun thing. Just because it isn't fun for you doesn't mean it shouldn't be fun for them. I don't understand how this is a hard concept.

Just let people enjoy things without trying to find faults in it, there's literally no need to analyze and criticize everything.
 
May 22, 2019 8:19 AM
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Posts: 84
You know, Kimurah, you're really not doing yourself any favors in trying to sound like you know what the hell you're talking about when you can't even remember the characters' names.
 
May 22, 2019 8:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 2616
Kimurah said:
Daeny-Nini said:


Your message made me laugh. The first version is full of bad writings, stupid fillers and cringy adds. They made the story more childish, they made the characters more superficial and stupid, they made some plotlines ridiculous. The character of Yuki was completely ruined in the 2001 version and it was reaaally slow. The pacing was just completely bad...


Is it bad because it has bad writing? (wich you didn't point out specific chapters) or is it bad just because you say so? Let me answer that for you, it's the later, just because you say so without being specific. The 2001 adaptation became a classic, wich means hundreds of thousands of people thought it was great and memorable. If it was as bad and childish as you claim with no actual proof, it wouldn't had had such an impact, it would have been an easily forgotten title, and it wouldn't have created a remake this year.

Daeny-Nini said:

This version is better not just because its adapting faithfully the manga, but because the manga is better than the 2001 anime in EVERY ways, so since this version is more faithful to the manga than the 2001 version, it's obviousely better. It's not completely the same, there's some differencies, but these differencies don't ruin the story and the rhythm, unlike the first one adding funny and childish moments in every fucking episodes. So move on if you don't know shit about what you're talking about.


You're not proving anything, you're just saying it's better because "I say it" you don't expand on anything. You yell that the old adaptation had padding, but you completely disregard and even use your brain to see the flaws of the new added content in the new adaptation.

Yuki & Kyo's POV of the events added nothing on episode 5. The original chapter in the manga was already pretty short and rushed on Tohru's choice. She just moved from the Sohma's house a few hours earlier and now she wants to go back because she feels homesick and she thinks she'll never see the Sohma's again despite them going to the same school. She just nopes out with very little reason, it feels like a kindergarden going to school for the first time saying "I don't want to". The 2001 adpatation fixed this by adding more events, giving enough time for Tohru to think it over and even add events that would resonate and give her a reason to exist in the Sohma's house and not at grampa's like having a hard time finding the dishes or storing gramp's socks in the drawer of the high horsed son. The sequence at school where she greets the sohma's helps out to point that Tohru is still holding up despite being in a new home. Shigure pointing out how much he misses Tohru's cooking and Kyo remembering Tohru while he's on the rooftop all add up to give Yuki & Kyo a good reason to go look out for her the next day. All this is called BUILD UP that helps the cast to make a choice with a good cause. In the new one they are just sitting at the table and suddenly they fell the need to go get Tohru, that's just cheap writing.

Episode 7 is laughable in the opportunistic and terrible writing. Why the heck would Haru erase Kana's memories in the middle of the night, on a street wearing thin clothes while it's snowing? Even previously in that episode Thoru is wearing a full long coat and a muffler to point out how harsh the winter is that place. After Haru erases Kana's memories, what is he going to do with her? will he leave her there lying in the cold floor surrounded by snow in the middle of nowhere? The 2001 adaptation did it behind closed doors in a more intimate atmosphere, if Haru just leaves after he's done with Kana at least she'll wake up in a familiar place, indoors without facing the harsh winter. In the manga and the new adaptation Kana appears 2 years later out of nowhere in the most ridiculously opportunistic spot to give closure to Haru's arc. The 2001 adpatation did the right thing to just leave out that cheesy scene.

In Episode 4 in the new adaptation where Kagura goes to the grocery, she forgets her bag with all her money. Suddenly out of of nowhere Tohru pops out with a wad of a 1000 year bills on her hand a a very tiny coinpurse on the other hand. How the heck can a highschooler that cleans floors for a living carries that much money in such a ridiculously small coinpurse? and how did she know Kagura was pennyless when she was about to pay up at the gorcery? the episode showed us the viewers that Kagura left her bag, but it didn't show Tohru realizing this. That scene was pretty contrived and filled with Takaya's oportunistic signature.

Explain to me like I was five how the heck does Kyo's shower scene help out the storyline or at least it doesn't ruin the rhythm as you claim.

Daeny-Nini said:

Also, even the mangaka of Fruits Basket hated the first version because she thought they made some of her characters way too different and minimized tha psycologic and dramatic side of the story. The 2001 anime was just a funny show with some drama, while the manga is a drama show with some funny stuffs, that's the difference. Of course being different doesn't make it better or worse, but the execution of some things in the 2001 version is just completely messed up.


As I pointed out in my previous paragraphs this remake has some terrible contrived and opportunistic execution and I'm not the only one that has pointed it in these discussion episodes.
On a different subject, if Takaya didn't like chocolate icecream, would you say you hate it too or that it's bad just because she doesn't like it? Piero Manzoni a very polemic artist claimed that not all the stuff and artist creates is actually good, to wich he actually canned his own feces and put it on display.

Daeny-Nini said:

This version has a better pacing, way more potential since they wnt to be closer to the manga than the previous version, which is great since the manga is better, more ambitious, and has way better graphics, but well the last one is not fair since the manga and first anime came 19-20 years ago. But still this is much more enjoyable, the graphics of the first anime were just horrible and completely absurd.


They aren't called graphics you ignorant dumbass, this isn't a videogame. It's called arstyle and animation, and the artstyle in the first adaptation is akin to Takaya's old artstyle from the first volumes of Fruits Basket, she just changed styles later on that is the kind of art the new adaptation is aiming for. In terms of animation (more frames that give a better perception of motion) the old adaptation had more thorough handwork here and there in some scenes, like the Yuki fanclub being animated in a very cartoonish style. The new adaptaion is just average in animation terms.


Daeny-Nini said:

The manga isn't really better in this category, but seems less unrealistic than the anime, even tho it's still kind of silly here too. The voices didn't fit the characters well in the 2001, especially Yuki, so even in this area the 2019 version is better. Also, the 2019 version will adapt the whole manga, and the last part of the story is BY FAR the best part, the most interesting and entertaining one, so after the end of the new version, it will be unbeatable. Exactly like for Fullmetal Alchemist, everybody's gonna like the new version better because it will adapt the whole story and end it, unlike the first one. Just deal with it, this version will be more famous and popular. Sorry not sorry.


Yuki had a more femenine figure and manerisms, a female voice just make a lot of sense to his character in the old adaptation. Compare it to the new adaptation and the jokes of him wearing a dress and everyone calling him a girl just fall flat because he doesn't look like a girl at all. Also seems that you're counting your chickens before they hatch, there are plenty of us who point out these flaws on the new adaptaion and still prefer the old adaptation over it, so no, NOT EVERYONE as you claim will state that we like the new adaptation better. I've even seen peeps claiming that they like the first adaptation of FMA, so you're just delusional and shortsighted with your ridiculous statements.

Daeny-Nini said:

No need to respond me, I won't watch it since I'm not active on MAL (I'm not english, I just come here sometimes for news).

I don't need your permission to quote you and reply with an elaborate response. You can just go back to being a lurker and no one will care about it.

Daeny-Nini said:

Oh and just to let you know, the first version adapted only 20% of the manga, and these 20% represent literally the least good part of the story. LOL

Thank you captain obvious, a lot of us already knew that the 2001 adpatation only covered a small percent of the mango. Anything else?

Daeny-Nini said:
You know nothing about what "bad writing" is if you really think the 2001 version has a better writing. :)))

YUP, you sound like the typical salty butthurt manga fanboy that has no way to prove what bad writing is, but fingerpoints on others.





im getting mixed messages should i watch the original or not some are telling me too and some are saying not to bother due the ignoring most of the manga half way though or something
 
May 22, 2019 8:45 AM

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Posts: 241
enaj_c said:
I just wanna say that...

If you don't like the anime, don't harass the fans. They just want to enjoy their fun thing. Just because it isn't fun for you doesn't mean it shouldn't be fun for them. I don't understand how this is a hard concept.



When did I state that I don't like the anime? pointing out it's flaws it's part of any discussion. If you want to read just pure praises, just go to any facebook group where mods can delete anything that isn't a praise.

I'm not harassing anyone. If someone comes up with a bold statement with no proof of what they are talking it's fair game to question or ask for actual evidence, not just opinions passed out as statements.

enaj_c said:

Just let people enjoy things without trying to find faults in it, there's literally no need to analyze and criticize everything.


Says who? you? some random nobody. If you point me out to an specific paragraph in this site's rules that people aren't allowed to discuss, analize and criticize titles, I'll gladly oblige, but since you can't you can either suck it, or just add me to an ignore list and move on.

thebond_thecurse said:
You know, Kimurah, you're really not doing yourself any favors in trying to sound like you know what the hell you're talking about when you can't even remember the characters' names.


What character name?

You're not doing yourself any favor by jumping into a conversation without actually saying something substancial
 
May 22, 2019 8:57 AM
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Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 11
Kimurah said:
enaj_c said:
I just wanna say that...

If you don't like the anime, don't harass the fans. They just want to enjoy their fun thing. Just because it isn't fun for you doesn't mean it shouldn't be fun for them. I don't understand how this is a hard concept.



When did I state that I don't like the anime? pointing out it's flaws it's part of any discussion. If you want to read just pure praises, just go to any facebook group where mods can delete anything that isn't a praise.

I'm not harassing anyone. If someone comes up with a bold statement with no proof of what they are talking it's fair game to question or ask for actual evidence, not just opinions passed out as statements.

enaj_c said:

Just let people enjoy things without trying to find faults in it, there's literally no need to analyze and criticize everything.


Says who? you? some random nobody. If you point me out to an specific paragraph in this site's rules that people aren't allowed to discuss, analize and criticize titles, I'll gladly oblige, but since you can't you can either suck it, or just add me to an ignore list and move on.

thebond_thecurse said:
You know, Kimurah, you're really not doing yourself any favors in trying to sound like you know what the hell you're talking about when you can't even remember the characters' names.


What character name?

You're not doing yourself any favor by jumping into a conversation without actually saying something substancial


Are you done now?!? I hope your day is as pleasant as your personality and thanks from calling me "some random nobody" I appreciate it truly
 
May 22, 2019 9:00 AM

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Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 241
enaj_c said:


Are you done now?!? I hope your day is as pleasant as your personality and thanks from calling me "some random nobody" I appreciate it truly


You have nothing to add or actually discuss about the series, so yeah, I'm done with you.
 
May 22, 2019 9:17 AM

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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 208
Kimurah said:
Amyyw said:


Hm, ok yes but still.. those kind of situations can happen in real life, no? Has it never happen to you, the whole "speaking of the devil" situation? You talking or thinking about someone and that person appears near or in front of you..?


It happens with people I see on daily basis or regularly, not someone that I haven't seen in TWO FREAKING YEARS. Again, you're just downplaying it with absurd examples. Just accept it's bad contrived writing.


Well.. I believe anything can happen so i don't think it's absurd x)

Oh I've accepted it.. I just don't think it's a big deal? Some of ya'll act like it was the worst thing that they ever saw when no story is going to be perfect. Not now, not ever...

Also, I dont understand why some people that have read the manga/watched the old version are complaining about this event when you all clearly knew it was going to happen x)
 
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