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Is anyone else bothered by the "I will not kill no matter what" main characters?

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May 14, 12:19 PM

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It bothers me when the bad guys are completely nonredeemable, but if its shounen I usually let it go, considering its mostly par for the course, so its to be expected.
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May 14, 12:26 PM

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I don't mind if it's executed well like in Rurouni Kenshin, damn you feel so much for Kenshin that even at the end of the manga when battling with that weird edgy guy, you don't want for him to kill that bad guy no matter what.
I encountered this cliche in battle shonen, stuff like naruto, op, bleach, which is kinda censored, don't know why because in Fist of the North Star everyone is dying, be it good, bad, ugly, animal. I think they should just make the main edge guy kill some enemies from time to time to look more cool and not bore us to death. (And Naruto vs Pain was ridiculous, too lazy to write paragraphs and paragraphs about it).
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May 14, 12:28 PM
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goku does that stuff too he let vegeta live
 
May 14, 12:31 PM

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Dave_Adrian said:
Tuvokfan said:
Batman makes sense though. He has special equipment that allows him to apprehend criminals without killing them. He has honed nonlethal takedown techniques for years. It's not unrealistic that he is able to apprehend them. Batman doesn't break immersion or feel weak. Also, a lot (not all) of the people he fights are small-time criminals that don't deserve to be killed anyway. He doesn't come of shoneny at all. I am mainly talking about people like Emiya, Gunter, ext.

Have you seen The Dark Knight tho? If Batman killed the Joker (in the scene where he was using his bike and had the chance to run the Joker over) I'm positive that a lot of people would still be alive...

But hey, The Dark Knight is still a really great movie 10/10

He is somehow the most annoying superhero to me, because... I don't know, his whole character seems so unnatural to appear cool. (I'm very sorry, don't hate on me. I'm going to hide somewhere.)
It didn't make sense, by letting the Joker live, he brought much more pain to the people there. But okay, I only know these movies and that cartoon movie with Harley Quinn, so I don't know the whole universe there.
Modified by Maneki-Mew, May 14, 12:35 PM
 
May 14, 12:32 PM
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Zydeph said:
Well, I get the frustration and I've certainly felt this too a few times. But I disagree with some of the things you're saying here. I don't understand how an MC killing their enemy is more realistic than a "wishy washing self-contradicting MC with childish morals". Why is not wanting to kill childish? You make it sound like a character with such morals can't be well-written, or that a real person couldn't think this way. Killing isn't the only way to get rid of an enemy, you know. Sometimes it may be, but usually there are other possibilities left, which include, for example, the bad guy changing their ways. Which, in my experience, is what these kind of MCs usually believe in. And I mean, that can make good materials for a great story.

I don't know about you, but I'd say that realistically, killing is the absolute last resort, one that most people rely on when there are really no other options left. The situation would need to be pretty freaking tight for this to happen. Which it rarely is.

Tuvokfan said:
If you don't kill an enemy that could have been killed, anyone that said enemy kills afterward is your responsibility, it's a simple truth.


Oh come on, this is bs. Refusing to kill someone in no way makes you responsible for the deeds said person does afterwards. I could understand this if the situation was something like "Choose whether you press the "Kill the villain" button or not, if you don't press it the villain will kill everyone else" but again, it's usually not that simple at all.

Tuvokfan said:
However I do think exceptions must be made for lighthearted action shows like boku no hero academia, one piece, ext. These shows seemed to be more focused on adventure and being epic and are pursuing any kind of realism whatsoever so its fine. I am talking more about action shows that have a lot of characters dying.


Is Luffy really the kind of MC you're talking about? Luffy leaves his opponents alive because that forces them to face the fact that their plans and hard work were ruined. Luffy doesn't care that much what happens to others, he's only interested in protecting the people he likes. He was recently a part of an assassination plan, you know.
I don't think not wanting to kill is childish at all. However absolutely refusing to kill no matter the circumstances is. Main characters like gunter from deadman wonderland, emiya from fate stay night and Arrow Rygart from break blade are these type of characters. There are times to show mercy and times to do what needs to be done. A lot of these characters have a terrible judgment in this regard. Also in regards to "you are responsible for the actions of people you spared" line of reasoning I am referring to losing a fight the hero could have won had he used lethal force and that causes deaths as a result. I am not talking about Doctor Tenman and Yohan in Moster or something like that.
 
May 14, 12:35 PM

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Maneki-Mew said:
Dave_Adrian said:

Have you seen The Dark Knight tho? If Batman killed the Joker (in the scene where he was using his bike and had the chance to run the Joker over) I'm positive that a lot of people would still be alive...

But hey, The Dark Knight is still a really great movie 10/10

He is somehow the most annoying superhero to me, because... I don't know, his whole character seems so unnatural to appear cool. (I'm very sorry, don't hate on me. I'm going to hide somewhere.)

BLASPHEMY!! I'LL FUCKINGG KILL YO-

Well, opinions are subjective anyway.. I don't..see anything.... wrong with it

Seriously, the reason why I love Batman is because of this quote:
"In fighting monsters, you need to be careful not to become a monster yourself.."

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May 14, 12:40 PM

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I actually find this character trope interesting. It can be genuinely fun and engaging to see characters trying to stop villains or whatever without resorting to killing, it can lead to more creative resolutions for issues. I also love seeing characters question and struggle with their own morality,and that's very common among pacifist heroes. In response to your fourth point, it's very common that non-killing characters find themselves challenged in this way, since they have to decide whether or not to break their own moral code. Also, characters who don't kill can still be very morally complex and interesting. Take someone like Batman, for instance. They make it clear in numerous comics that Batman's refusal to kill is one of the only things that seperates him from his villains, and that can lead to some great character dynamics .
Modified by Coach_Koro, May 14, 12:44 PM
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May 14, 12:44 PM

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MeisterDM said:
I only find it frustrating when they forgive the enemy (cough cough naruto).


now I'm not sure if I want to continue this series if it's this cringey
 
May 14, 12:49 PM

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I find the "no kill" type characters extremely unrealistic and incredibly grating, especially when the character is defending his life and thing/people he loves. When your life is actually on the line instincts kick in and your body/mind concentrates solely on neutralizing the threat to it's existence. (by either fighting or running away) A character refuses to kill it seems completely un-relatable and inhuman since they simply ignore the instincts that are ingrained into everyone.

I understand that in Shonen shows I can't expect a slaughter fest and nor do I want one, but almost any anime that takes itself seriously can't have a character pulling punches when his life is in danger for the sake of his/her morals.
"They say people don't believe in heroes anymore. Well, damn them! You and me, we're gonna give them back their heroes."


 
May 14, 12:52 PM

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Not that much, only when they have already killed footsoldiers and refuse to kill the "boss". This happened a lot in TWD and made no sense at all
 
May 14, 12:56 PM
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DiscoDespot said:

I find the "no kill" type characters extremely unrealistic and incredibly grating, especially when the character is defending his life and thing/people he loves. When your life is actually on the line instincts kick in and your body/mind concentrates solely on neutralizing the threat to it's existence. (by either fighting or running away) A character refuses to kill it seems completely un-relatable and inhuman since they simply ignore the instincts that are ingrained into everyone.

I understand that in Shonen shows I can't expect a slaughter fest and nor do I want one, but almost any anime that takes itself seriously can't have a character pulling punches when his life is in danger for the sake of his/her morals.
I totally agree. Honestly, I am less repulsed by the morals of refusing to kill than how unrealistic these no kill MCs tend to be.I am pretty sure most of the audience would kill someone trying to kill them or their family its in our insticts, fight of flight. Also like others have said, watching a MC just up and forgive an unredeemable villain is extremely unsatisfying and downright enraging.
 
May 14, 12:56 PM

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I don't mind them. I think the problem is how the story deals with the whole "killing" stuff itself, because I find myself constantly bothered with both sides of the spectrum.

For instance, in Star Wars, the Jedi are shown as paragons of virtue, yet they never even flinch when killing other creatures. Ever. Iirc Luke shows some concern when Obi-Wan severed some guy arm at the beginning of A New Hope, but at the end of the movie he's blasting off a moon-sized station with probably thousands of people inside. Yeah, I know it's a children's movie with simple morals and the Empire is baaaad, but it's still kinda ludicrous in retrospect. And that's not a problem only in Star Wars, there are so many movies and books and etc like that it's unbelievable.

And again, the "no killing" rule can be cheesy most times, especially because it has been hammered into pop culture in the form of idealist characters like Superman and Batman, but that doesn't mean it can't be done well. Mushishi is a grand example of that. Ginko is a Mushishi that makes his living always trying to attain balance and not killing Mushi just for the sake of it (which is the norm in his trade), but that attitude of his is not just a statement of righteousness: it perfectly fits the overall theme of the anime. It's also not something that we are constantly reminded of, but it's a trait that's always consistent and Ginko always act accordingly, even if sometimes he does have to extinguish the Mushis because human lives comes first. Just think about it, did you ever see anyone complain about that? Of course not.

The problem isn't whether a character kills or not, but how the show portrays that. If it's just a personality trait that makes no difference in the show's overarching and themes, of course it's gonna look lazy and boring. But as always, it just depends on how the show decides to go with it.
 
May 14, 12:56 PM

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Esquirtit said:
Not that much, only when they have already killed footsoldiers and refuse to kill the "boss". This happened a lot in TWD and made no sense at all

Now that you mention this, I do find that kind of annoying. At that point, the writers are just superficially trying to make the main character look more 'heroic' instead of actually giving them a developed set of morals. It also annoys me when there's a massive amount of collateral damage/innocent lives lost in a fight, but the main character refuses to kill the villain.
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May 14, 1:00 PM

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Dave_Adrian said:
Maneki-Mew said:

He is somehow the most annoying superhero to me, because... I don't know, his whole character seems so unnatural to appear cool. (I'm very sorry, don't hate on me. I'm going to hide somewhere.)

BLASPHEMY!! I'LL FUCKINGG KILL YO-

Well, opinions are subjective anyway.. I don't..see anything.... wrong with it

Seriously, the reason why I love Batman is because of this quote:
"In fighting monsters, you need to be careful not to become a monster yourself.."

That's absolutely right, but I never have seen that he never risked to become a monster, although I really like characters, who kinda battle inner demons and all. About these characters, I think, Op is right.
Also, I don't know if I remember the movie right, but nobody called him out for not killing the Joker or Batman himself didn't really overthink his ideals, even if it caused death and pain to more people.

But some "no killing"-characters feel very understandable imo, for example Edward from FMA or Allen from DGM refused to attack humans too. And Emma from TPN is also kind-hearted and feels very natural that way, imo.
 
May 14, 1:01 PM
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Esquirtit said:
Not that much, only when they have already killed footsoldiers and refuse to kill the "boss". This happened a lot in TWD and made no sense at all
I forgot about those types of shows. Ugh! that's even worse. If you're going to have a naive moral code at least make it consistent lol.
 
May 14, 1:03 PM

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I completely agree with you. Similar to dc and marvel comics, if people like joker, lex luthor are still alive then innocent people will never be save. Killing mass murders is a good thing, only lazy, naive writing is telling you that you should spare them. Movie Superman vs Eilte is a good example how rule "Im not gonna kill you because Im better than you!" is ridiculus and stupid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knCOTgghbhU
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May 14, 1:27 PM
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mohrip said:
That must be shonen cliche character, and yeah I hate it. Maybe it's not similar, but I hate deku too from boku no hero acadamia when Bakugou got arrested by the villain, and he want to save him and go with todoroki and the others.

But when deku has a chance to save Bakugou, he didn't save him because "you're not allowed to use quirk or you will considered as villain" such a thing.

Like dude, the real hero won't care what people think about it. That's the thing too with "I won't kill no matter what" kind of thing.
you must despise batman considering he's basically everything you listed down
 
May 14, 1:33 PM

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If the work they're in is good, then it's good. If the work is bad, then it's bad. It all depends on how it's executed.

For example Dr. Tenma is a great character, while Relena Peacecraft is kinda obnoxious.



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May 14, 1:36 PM

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NthDegree said:
If the work they're in is good, then it's good. If the work is bad, then it's bad. It all depends on how it's executed.

For example Dr. Tenma is a great character, while Relena Peacecraft is kinda obnoxious.


I was just about to mention Dr. Tenma! He's a great character and I love Monster, but he made some scenes just so frustrating to watch, because he wasn't capable of shooting anybody.
 
May 14, 1:36 PM

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It only bothers me when the mc did it for no reason other than "lol nope it's morally wrong".

I'm especially annoyed by the cliche "I won't kill you because I would be worse than you" quote though.
 
May 14, 1:43 PM
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I'm not bothered by it. I see it as a fundemantal moral point.

I guess I'm just hopeful and moral that way.
 
May 14, 1:46 PM
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Black_Sheep97 said:
mohrip said:
That must be shonen cliche character, and yeah I hate it. Maybe it's not similar, but I hate deku too from boku no hero acadamia when Bakugou got arrested by the villain, and he want to save him and go with todoroki and the others.

But when deku has a chance to save Bakugou, he didn't save him because "you're not allowed to use quirk or you will considered as villain" such a thing.

Like dude, the real hero won't care what people think about it. That's the thing too with "I won't kill no matter what" kind of thing.
you must despise batman considering he's basically everything you listed down


Lol, yeah it seems I just said that batman is right, but I didn't even think about him. I thought about lelouch when I wrote the post, since they're kinda similar when it comes to be a real hero
 
May 14, 1:47 PM

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JustMonaka said:
I'm especially annoyed by the cliche "I won't kill you because I would be worse than you" quote though.

Oh man, that is so annoying. No, MC, killing space Hitler does not make you as bad as him, he's the space Hitler!
 
May 14, 1:50 PM

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zaiga said:
NthDegree said:
If the work they're in is good, then it's good. If the work is bad, then it's bad. It all depends on how it's executed.

For example Dr. Tenma is a great character, while Relena Peacecraft is kinda obnoxious.


I was just about to mention Dr. Tenma! He's a great character and I love Monster, but he made some scenes just so frustrating to watch, because he wasn't capable of shooting anybody.

Really? Personally I was internally yelling 'DON'T SHOOT' the entire time... because if he had, Johan would have won on a symbolic level.




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May 14, 1:54 PM
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Tuvokfan said:
I truly despise these main characters and nearly always insta-drop shows that have these types of MC's. Here are my reasons.

1. It means the main character is always holding back. No matter how intense the fight you always know that the main character is trying not to kill his enemy and this really kills the tension.

2. It breaks the immersion. There is no way it is possible to realistically "knock out" enemies reliably enough without seriously injuring or killing them. If someone is hell-bent on killing you, killing them is basically the only way to deal with it.

3. The moral logic of "I will not kill no matter what." is fundamentally flawed. By refusing to kill you are putting yourself at a massive disadvantage and endangering those you are protecting. For example
by refusing to kill an obvious villain you are dooming many innocent people to their death. If you don't kill an enemy that could have been killed, anyone that said enemy kills afterward is your responsibility, it's a simple truth.

4. The main reason I hate main characters like this is that it is just so boring to watch. In a good anime or piece of media in general, whether or not to kill someone is a HUGE choice and sets up moral dilemmas that add a lot of complexity to the story. It feels like when an author writes a main character that refuses to kill no matter what, it is completely cops out of this conflict. In American political terms it’s like someone voting either just democrat or just republican without even looking at who is running. It’s not good storytelling. In addition to this it slows down the pace of the story and a lot of times, because the final blow is never driven home the villains build up and clog up the narrative. I personally prefer a main character that gets the job done and does what he has to do in order to protect those he loves to some wishy washing self-contradicting MC with childish morals.

However I do think exceptions must be made for lighthearted action shows like boku no hero academia, one piece, ext. These shows seemed to be more focused on adventure and being epic and are pursuing any kind of realism whatsoever so its fine. I am talking more about action shows that have a lot of characters dying.

Do you agree with my frustrations or do you think I am being overly harsh?
i think you're being overly harsh for these:
1. This isn't true in a majority of these kind of fights the villain is usually always stronger so simply trying to survive against him is a task and takes everything he has to simply knock him out. Since alot of these shounen are usually fist fights. Look at Gon he didn't want to kill genthru but do you think he was holding back and same for Edward elric in most of his fights.
When you look at a boxing match they're going at each other with everything do you think they are trying to kill each other?
2. Not necessarily realistic sure but doesn't necessarily mean it implausible it comes down to how a it's executed and for the most part in my hero academia and one piece and fmab they do a pretty solid job.
3. This is a very narrow minded way of looking at things cause you're dismissing the potential of human life to be good and bad, imagine if Goku had killed Vegeta instead of letting him go. And also blaming someone for the actions of others is unreasonable cause they don't know how things can turn out and that's something they don't have control over.
4.i agree with you that it wouldn't make for interesting story telling but you kinda contradicted yourself a bit you say the moral dilemma creates for good storytelling but that can only exist if the character has that rule as opposed to not having it at all. Furthermore you can't equate the act of killing someone to the act of voting for presidents. That's simply ridiculous the mental effects for the two acts are not comparable. I'll let you decide which one is worse.

You need to give an example of this we're it led to bad storytelling like the one you gave for vinland saga is an example of good storytelling.

After reading this post you must hate Edward elric as a character.
 
May 14, 2:01 PM
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mohrip said:
Black_Sheep97 said:
you must despise batman considering he's basically everything you listed down


Lol, yeah it seems I just said that batman is right, but I didn't even think about him. I thought about lelouch when I wrote the post, since they're kinda similar when it comes to be a real hero
when deku went to save him he did use his quirk so what are you talking about?
He was hesitant because of the risks in that particular situation.
There is a rule that people in that society aren't allowed to use quirks in public because of the danger they impose on themselves and others if they aren't trained properly, it's a law that exists and people who break the law are in the same category of villains.
A hero probably wouldn't care what people thinks of him but a person does that makes for interesting character writings
 
May 14, 2:11 PM

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NthDegree said:
zaiga said:


I was just about to mention Dr. Tenma! He's a great character and I love Monster, but he made some scenes just so frustrating to watch, because he wasn't capable of shooting anybody.

Really? Personally I was internally yelling 'DON'T SHOOT' the entire time... because if he had, Johan would have won on a symbolic level.



Oh yeah, that's true, didn't think about it that way. At the end I was relieved though that he didn't shoot after all.
 
May 14, 2:11 PM

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Esquirtit said:
Not that much, only when they have already killed footsoldiers and refuse to kill the "boss". This happened a lot in TWD and made no sense at all

I'm having 'Governor' flashbacks right now..

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May 14, 2:29 PM
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Black_Sheep97 said:
Tuvokfan said:
I truly despise these main characters and nearly always insta-drop shows that have these types of MC's. Here are my reasons.

1. It means the main character is always holding back. No matter how intense the fight you always know that the main character is trying not to kill his enemy and this really kills the tension.

2. It breaks the immersion. There is no way it is possible to realistically "knock out" enemies reliably enough without seriously injuring or killing them. If someone is hell-bent on killing you, killing them is basically the only way to deal with it.

3. The moral logic of "I will not kill no matter what." is fundamentally flawed. By refusing to kill you are putting yourself at a massive disadvantage and endangering those you are protecting. For example
by refusing to kill an obvious villain you are dooming many innocent people to their death. If you don't kill an enemy that could have been killed, anyone that said enemy kills afterward is your responsibility, it's a simple truth.

4. The main reason I hate main characters like this is that it is just so boring to watch. In a good anime or piece of media in general, whether or not to kill someone is a HUGE choice and sets up moral dilemmas that add a lot of complexity to the story. It feels like when an author writes a main character that refuses to kill no matter what, it is completely cops out of this conflict. In American political terms it’s like someone voting either just democrat or just republican without even looking at who is running. It’s not good storytelling. In addition to this it slows down the pace of the story and a lot of times, because the final blow is never driven home the villains build up and clog up the narrative. I personally prefer a main character that gets the job done and does what he has to do in order to protect those he loves to some wishy washing self-contradicting MC with childish morals.

However I do think exceptions must be made for lighthearted action shows like boku no hero academia, one piece, ext. These shows seemed to be more focused on adventure and being epic and are pursuing any kind of realism whatsoever so its fine. I am talking more about action shows that have a lot of characters dying.

Do you agree with my frustrations or do you think I am being overly harsh?
i think you're being overly harsh for these:
1. This isn't true in a majority of these kind of fights the villain is usually always stronger so simply trying to survive against him is a task and takes everything he has to simply knock him out. Since alot of these shounen are usually fist fights. Look at Gon he didn't want to kill genthru but do you think he was holding back and same for Edward elric in most of his fights.
When you look at a boxing match they're going at each other with everything do you think they are trying to kill each other?
2. Not necessarily realistic sure but doesn't necessarily mean it implausible it comes down to how a it's executed and for the most part in my hero academia and one piece and fmab they do a pretty solid job.
3. This is a very narrow minded way of looking at things cause you're dismissing the potential of human life to be good and bad, imagine if Goku had killed Vegeta instead of letting him go. And also blaming someone for the actions of others is unreasonable cause they don't know how things can turn out and that's something they don't have control over.
4.i agree with you that it wouldn't make for interesting story telling but you kinda contradicted yourself a bit you say the moral dilemma creates for good storytelling but that can only exist if the character has that rule as opposed to not having it at all. Furthermore you can't equate the act of killing someone to the act of voting for presidents. That's simply ridiculous the mental effects for the two acts are not comparable. I'll let you decide which one is worse.

You need to give an example of this we're it led to bad storytelling like the one you gave for vinland saga is an example of good storytelling.

After reading this post you must hate Edward elric as a character.
How is my example in Vinland Saga good story telling? I felt like it was a cop out.
In break blade
Also in magi
Honestly in the story a lot of times the main character gets away with not killing because at the end of the day it is fiction but it personally breaks my immersion.
 
May 14, 2:34 PM
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Tuvokfan said:
Black_Sheep97 said:
i think you're being overly harsh for these:
1. This isn't true in a majority of these kind of fights the villain is usually always stronger so simply trying to survive against him is a task and takes everything he has to simply knock him out. Since alot of these shounen are usually fist fights. Look at Gon he didn't want to kill genthru but do you think he was holding back and same for Edward elric in most of his fights.
When you look at a boxing match they're going at each other with everything do you think they are trying to kill each other?
2. Not necessarily realistic sure but doesn't necessarily mean it implausible it comes down to how a it's executed and for the most part in my hero academia and one piece and fmab they do a pretty solid job.
3. This is a very narrow minded way of looking at things cause you're dismissing the potential of human life to be good and bad, imagine if Goku had killed Vegeta instead of letting him go. And also blaming someone for the actions of others is unreasonable cause they don't know how things can turn out and that's something they don't have control over.
4.i agree with you that it wouldn't make for interesting story telling but you kinda contradicted yourself a bit you say the moral dilemma creates for good storytelling but that can only exist if the character has that rule as opposed to not having it at all. Furthermore you can't equate the act of killing someone to the act of voting for presidents. That's simply ridiculous the mental effects for the two acts are not comparable. I'll let you decide which one is worse.

You need to give an example of this we're it led to bad storytelling like the one you gave for vinland saga is an example of good storytelling.

After reading this post you must hate Edward elric as a character.
How is my example in Vinland Saga good story telling? I felt like it was a cop out.
In break blade
Also in magi
Honestly in the story a lot of times the main character gets away with not killing because at the end of the day it is fiction but it personally breaks my immersion.
that was part of ideal and it got him killed this is great story telling cause it adds a layered perspective to era where killing is the norm and having a moral compass for killing is unique, not only that it also shows the ramifications for having such an ideal that's why it's great.
As for the other two examples I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt and say there is more context to it as I see you have a strong distaste for this troupe, just so you know you not liking something=\=bad storytelling
 
May 14, 2:45 PM
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Black_Sheep97 said:
Tuvokfan said:
How is my example in Vinland Saga good story telling? I felt like it was a cop out.
In break blade
Also in magi
Honestly in the story a lot of times the main character gets away with not killing because at the end of the day it is fiction but it personally breaks my immersion.
that was part of ideal and it got him killed this is great story telling cause it adds a layered perspective to era where killing is the norm and having a moral compass for killing is unique, not only that it also shows the ramifications for having such an ideal that's why it's great.
As for the other two examples I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt and say there is more context to it as I see you have a strong distaste for this troupe, just so you know you not liking something=\=bad storytelling
Well I guess if you look at from that viewpoint sure its "great storytelling". However, It seems very unrelatable and unrealistic to me. I and many others were looking for something different in a historical Viking battle manga.
 
May 14, 2:48 PM
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Tuvokfan said:
Black_Sheep97 said:
that was part of ideal and it got him killed this is great story telling cause it adds a layered perspective to era where killing is the norm and having a moral compass for killing is unique, not only that it also shows the ramifications for having such an ideal that's why it's great.
As for the other two examples I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt and say there is more context to it as I see you have a strong distaste for this troupe, just so you know you not liking something==bad storytelling
Well I guess if you look at from that viewpoint sure its "great storytelling". However, It seems very unrelatable and unrealistic to me. I and many others were looking for something different in a historical Viking battle manga.
I don't find it unrealistic cause any person with a concience and a strong sense of empathy would have that despite the era it certainly isn't implausible, as far as unrelatable , Jesus have you killed a person.
My point is I think stories that the act of killing this serious are great.
And I don't know who many others are most of the people I've talked to have said nothing but good things for vinland saga including the father stuff
Modified by Black_Sheep97, May 14, 2:53 PM
 
May 14, 2:57 PM
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Black_Sheep97 said:
Tuvokfan said:
Well I guess if you look at from that viewpoint sure its "great storytelling". However, It seems very unrelatable and unrealistic to me. I and many others were looking for something different in a historical Viking battle manga.
I don't find it unrealistic cause any person with a concience and a strong sense of empathy would have that despite the era it certainly isn't implausible, as far as unrelatable , Jesus have you killed a person.
And I don't know who many others are most of the people I've talked to have said nothing but good things for vinland saga including the father stuff
No I haven't killed anyone. However I would kill someone if they were attacking my son or my village. I am sure most people would. A lot of people hate the no killing ideology in Vinland Saga and a lot of people like / don't mind it. I made this thread to see how many people were also annoyed by main characters refusing to kill people. From what I can tell so far people seem to be pretty indifferent.
 
May 14, 3:01 PM
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Tuvokfan said:
Black_Sheep97 said:
I don't find it unrealistic cause any person with a concience and a strong sense of empathy would have that despite the era it certainly isn't implausible, as far as unrelatable , Jesus have you killed a person.
And I don't know who many others are most of the people I've talked to have said nothing but good things for vinland saga including the father stuff
No I haven't killed anyone. However I would kill someone if they were attacking my son or my village. I am sure most people would. A lot of people hate the no killing ideology in Vinland Saga and a lot of people like / don't mind it. I made this thread to see how many people were also annoyed by main characters refusing to kill people. From what I can tell so far people seem to be pretty indifferent.
maybe but if you could end the conflict without resorting to killing most people would choose that unfortunately that didn't happen here.
Like I said I don't know who alot of people it seems like you're making up for the sake of making it seem you're stance to have more merit to it.
 
May 14, 3:16 PM
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Black_Sheep97 said:
mohrip said:


Lol, yeah it seems I just said that batman is right, but I didn't even think about him. I thought about lelouch when I wrote the post, since they're kinda similar when it comes to be a real hero
when deku went to save him he did use his quirk so what are you talking about?
He was hesitant because of the risks in that particular situation.
There is a rule that people in that society aren't allowed to use quirks in public because of the danger they impose on themselves and others if they aren't trained properly, it's a law that exists and people who break the law are in the same category of villains.
A hero probably wouldn't care what people thinks of him but a person does that makes for interesting character writings


Well, I don't really remember, but what I know deku didn't use quirk. Well, in ttaining forest, he did use quirk, but the one that where all for one appears, he didn't.
 
May 14, 3:19 PM

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Dave_Adrian said:
Esquirtit said:
Not that much, only when they have already killed footsoldiers and refuse to kill the "boss". This happened a lot in TWD and made no sense at all

I'm having 'Governor' flashbacks right now..
I was thinking about all the hundreds of Negans
 
May 14, 3:22 PM
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mohrip said:
Black_Sheep97 said:
when deku went to save him he did use his quirk so what are you talking about?
He was hesitant because of the risks in that particular situation.
There is a rule that people in that society aren't allowed to use quirks in public because of the danger they impose on themselves and others if they aren't trained properly, it's a law that exists and people who break the law are in the same category of villains.
A hero probably wouldn't care what people thinks of him but a person does that makes for interesting character writings


Well, I don't really remember, but what I know deku didn't use quirk. Well, in ttaining forest, he did use quirk, but the one that where all for one appears, he didn't.
oh yeah he did, they all used their quirks to help bakugo get out of there, the only person who didn't was kirashima
 
May 14, 3:22 PM

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Yeah, it's the main reason why i kind of dislike Trigun.

I know Vash backstory but he could have avoided a lot of shit if he did it.

 
May 14, 3:25 PM

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CHLO_JO007 said:
I have an opposite opinion. It may seem annoying, but I believe it portrays a realistic and logical decision. Killing someone isn't that black and white, and it doesn't just affect the deceased. It affects the person doing the killing as well. Those executioners who carry out the capital punishment? Yeah, they're losing their minds!! Same thing with soldiers. But the mental trauma shouldn't matter because you killed the bad guy? It's naive to truly think that killing the bad guy undos all the damage and suffering. It makes perfect sense to not want to harbor said burden, especially if that person is a kid.

Just like any other trope, it needs to be used correctly. True, a paid assassin shouldn't have a no-kill policy. But, there have been shows that use the trope quite well.


I also don't find it boring since I take entertainment in seeing if they can really hold up to their morals.

Gonna strongly disagree on that.
It's anything but logical imo, let alone realistic.
The thing is simple; if u fight a battle with that sort of mentality, u die (unless ur significantly stronger than your opponent of course). That's the only realistic scenario I see. U can't have the "glory" of being the good person and the plot armor to carry that ideal through with no drawback at all (actually u can since most anime do it, but it sucks). Kind people die in fights and wars.
And, if after the kill, u wanna show the implications of such act to the mc's psyche, that would only make him more interesting.
Or u can even have him die, that would really mean holding up to your morals and that's smth I'd respect.
 
May 14, 3:47 PM

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-Mahesvara said:
It bothers me when the bad guys are completely nonredeemable, but if its shounen I usually let it go, considering its mostly par for the course, so its to be expected.

It bothers me how every villain has to have a reason for being evil. That isn't how it always works. It makes sense that the most twisted and "evil" people cannot be redeemed. Like for example a serial killer who has shown signs of malice at a very young age and never received the proper correctional therapy during their early developmental years.

It makes more sense to me to have a mix of villains, some have redeemable reasons behind their actions while others do not.
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However, compared to the difference between
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May 14, 4:00 PM

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I dislike any kind of extreme pacifism in general. I'm all for not inciting violence and trying to find other ways to solve problems with people but there are definitely people in this world that don't deserve to live in it. As a functioning human being you have to know when to put forth an olive branch and when to bash them in the face with the sharp jagged end of it.
Modified by Kruszer, May 14, 4:18 PM
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May 14, 4:06 PM

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The concept doesn't bother me at all. It just depends how it's done.

I like villains and redemption arcs though, that's what I live for.
 
May 14, 4:24 PM

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Bad writing? Childish moral? Hate it?

Honestly, I'm completely the opposite. I very much like it, and think it is, when executed well, the epitome of story-telling. I also think in terms of morals among the most maturest of morals, albeit a idealistic one. But I'm personally big on idealistic characters. I also like my redemption arcs.
 
May 14, 4:53 PM
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I'm with you on that OP, I hate the whole "if you kill him you will become just like him" speech everyone uses. this is why I prefer Tanya from Youjo senki, she has no regard for human life & she will do anything necessary to live a cozy life even if it means sacrificing his Teammates


"𝘐𝘵'𝘴 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘣𝘢𝘥 𝘵𝘰 𝘥𝘳𝘦𝘢𝘮. 𝘉𝘶𝘵 𝘺𝘰𝘶 𝘢𝘭𝘴𝘰 𝘩𝘢𝘷𝘦 𝘵𝘰 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘴𝘪𝘥𝘦𝘳 𝘸𝘩𝘢𝘵'𝘴 𝘳𝘦𝘢𝘭𝘪𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘤."
 
May 14, 5:01 PM

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Yes, especially since I don't agree with it at all. I think some charactes should absolutely die so it bothers me when the idea of characters getting a second chance no matter what horrible things they've done is seen as "the right thing to do".

This applies to real life as well.
 
May 14, 5:30 PM

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Dave_Adrian said:
Isn't it a bit stretching to say that it's because of "a false sense of moral righteousness" that you refuse to kill?


Not really. If you're purposely holding back because you don't want to kill your opponent, you're putting yourself and your allies in danger. Sparing an unrepentant villain will also allow him or her to potentially kill again or cause harm in the future.

But more subjectively, I also don't believe there's anything wrong with killing someone who has killed, raped, or tortured other innocents. You gain absolutely nothing from leaving that person alive.


What's the difference?
 
May 14, 5:39 PM
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Thats what makes shows like Trigun and Monster so interesting though... Like without that type of morality they wouldn't be as good as they are.
 
May 14, 7:08 PM

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vhagar8 said:

Gonna strongly disagree on that.
It's anything but logical imo, let alone realistic.
The thing is simple; if u fight a battle with that sort of mentality, u die (unless ur significantly stronger than your opponent of course). That's the only realistic scenario I see. U can't have the "glory" of being the good person and the plot armor to carry that ideal through with no drawback at all (actually u can since most anime do it, but it sucks). Kind people die in fights and wars.
And, if after the kill, u wanna show the implications of such act to the mc's psyche, that would only make him more interesting.
Or u can even have him die, that would really mean holding up to your morals and that's smth I'd respect.


As I mentioned in my earlier post, just like any trope, it must be used CORRECTLY. I agree, if you're an assassin or soldier with a no-kill policy, then yes, that would be quite annoying. But the trope isn't restricted to that category. There are many anime who give scenarios beyond just "you're a soldier; now kill."

The reason why I believe it's realistic is because not every person have psychopathic characteristics where they can go homicidal without even batting an eye. To me, it's unrealistic when I see anime portray kids and teenagers going homicidal with little to no conscious.

Killing doesn't just affect the deceased, and it's not "simple". Many people, whose occupations involve killing, experience a lot of mental trauma, doesn't matter if they're killing the "bad guy". Not to mention, what if the bad guy wasn't entirely bad? Or what if they had a family that want to exact revenge? Will said person take responsibility? Not even going to touch on how killing goes against what the average Joe is raised on. With all that in mind, I think it's pretty realistic and logical for someone to second-guess the action, especially if they're not an adult.

Many people in this thread have named great examples of anime characters with no-kill policies. I think seeing the struggle to maintain one's morals in a hopeless setting is entertaining. And yes, if you actually use your head and come up with a solution that beats the bad guy and aligns with your morals then you do deserve the glory.
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May 14, 7:23 PM
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I get it a little but I think there is a fine fucking line. The killing has to be justified and so does the stance of not wanting to kill as well.

Killing is a huge deal no matter what the context of the story and for your usually MC to have the ability to easily kill means something in their character. I mean a character having no issues with it has to be rightfully characterized too or else it's just as worthless as the one who won't cross that line in the first place.

 
May 14, 7:41 PM

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Lol this shounen cliche.

I just read the latest volume of Owari No Seraph and Yuu was like " YEAH, I'D TOTALLY KILL SOMEONE TO SAVE MY LOVED ONES" and I was like "O_____O OMG FINALLY!!!

....and this kid is sixteen. So yeah, broke that trope pretty hard. xD



 
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