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Hearing character's thoughts is bad storytelling!

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Apr 26, 6:16 AM

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@safeanew You do know that their actions came from what theyre thinking either in long term and at the moment? But anyways, I've said my piece. Inner monologues is a perfectly reasonable storytelling tool is my main point. Farewell.
 
Apr 26, 6:17 AM

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hairu said:
Inner monologue helps us understand what the character is thinking? A characters thoughts help the tension build? Inner monologue helps us see each characters perspective?
If conversation is the only form of speech then how would we understand the characters, you want them to think out loud or something?


Can you understand what I think? If not why then do you want character's to be magically understandable?
 
Apr 26, 6:19 AM

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skipped said:
I imagined Safeanew narrating every thing they do even when completely alone and couldn't stop laughing.

"I am tired so I am now going to bed"
"I must run to catch the bus or I will be late to school and get detention. I really wish that I was able to wake up with my alarm by my phisiology prevents it. Why did no one wake me up. Are they trying to make me late?" *Concerned onlookers watch a student sprint by while babbling like a madman.*


That is funny! Do you have any opinion on the topic?
 
Apr 26, 6:25 AM

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FMmatron said:
Silent anime such as Joshikausi are objectively speaking masterpieces.


Thanks for the recommendation, I will look into it!
 
Apr 26, 6:34 AM

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Safeanew said:

Can you understand what I think? If not why then do you want character's to be magically understandable?


That's why inner monologues are good.

 
Apr 26, 6:38 AM

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CrashRHCP said:
Safeanew said:

Can you understand what I think? If not why then do you want character's to be magically understandable?


That's why inner monologues are good.



Because you want to magically understand people you can't understand? How will hearing a character's thoughts help you understand someone like me? I think it just hinders truly understanding the character.
 
Apr 26, 6:39 AM

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Safeanew said:
hairu said:
Inner monologue helps us understand what the character is thinking? A characters thoughts help the tension build? Inner monologue helps us see each characters perspective?
If conversation is the only form of speech then how would we understand the characters, you want them to think out loud or something?


Can you understand what I think? If not why then do you want character's to be magically understandable?

Anime isn't supposed to be realistic? Characters have their own thoughts. For example if they have their own opinion, but can't say it, how would we know? Inner monologue is the perfect opportunity to express a characters inner thoughts. Characters obviously have their own different opinions, inner monologue can be used to go into depth with this.
su#4790
 
Apr 26, 6:42 AM

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Safeanew said:
The most important thing in storytelling is dialogue.
Hearing character's thoughts hinder dialogue by filling up moments of silence.
You have to be the most retarded person to ever think that.
 
Apr 26, 6:43 AM

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hairu said:
Safeanew said:


Can you understand what I think? If not why then do you want character's to be magically understandable?

Anime isn't supposed to be realistic? Characters have their own thoughts. For example if they have their own opinion, but can't say it, how would we know? Inner monologue is the perfect opportunity to express a characters inner thoughts. Characters obviously have their own different opinions, inner monologue can be used to go into depth with this.


But storytelling should tell a story, I am claiming that a story is dialogue so hearing characters think is a detriment to the story, because it have nothing to do with what is happening in the story. If you want to hear what characters think to feel good I don't blame you. But it takes away from the story.
 
Apr 26, 6:45 AM

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AkihitoZero5454 said:
Safeanew said:
The most important thing in storytelling is dialogue.
Hearing character's thoughts hinder dialogue by filling up moments of silence.
You have to be the most retarded person to ever think that.


So there are less retarded people that think that? Can you recommend them to me!
 
Apr 26, 6:46 AM

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It's just a technique. It can be used right or wrong.
But it's a technique that allows you to better understand someone by seeing things from one's perspectives that you wouldn't in real life.

You say that "understanding characters" is bad for storytelling, but that's just, in my opinion, plain wrong.
There can be characters that you can't understand, for sure. If you're trying for a mysterious hero or villain. Or something that is supposed to be otherwordly or lovecraftian.
But that's not something that should be applied to everything. Sometimes it's better to understand the person, ESPECIALLY if that person is doing things that you wouldn't agree. It makes the story help YOU grow as a person and have in mind points of view that you may not understand before.

Of course there's other ways to do this, like exploring someone's backstory, or with some good art/animation so you can show emotion (or lack of) with imagery. Or I guess rambling alone in a room which is just like listening to inner thoughts but somewhat less realistic.
It really just depends on what you want to do, and I'm sure there are scenarios where it would be detrimental to the story to have that, but I don't see that as an absolute truth.
 
Apr 26, 6:47 AM

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Safeanew said:
hairu said:

Anime isn't supposed to be realistic? Characters have their own thoughts. For example if they have their own opinion, but can't say it, how would we know? Inner monologue is the perfect opportunity to express a characters inner thoughts. Characters obviously have their own different opinions, inner monologue can be used to go into depth with this.


But storytelling should tell a story, I am claiming that a story is dialogue so hearing characters think is a detriment to the story, because it have nothing to do with what is happening in the story. If you want to hear what characters think to feel good I don't blame you. But it takes away from the story.


Silent manga exists.
https://myanimelist.net/manga/1470/Gon?q=Gon

Also, I guess mute characters are bad now?
 
Apr 26, 6:53 AM

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CrashRHCP said:
It's just a technique. It can be used right or wrong.
But it's a technique that allows you to better understand someone by seeing things from one's perspectives that you wouldn't in real life.

You say that "understanding characters" is bad for storytelling, but that's just, in my opinion, plain wrong.
There can be characters that you can't understand, for sure. If you're trying for a mysterious hero or villain. Or something that is supposed to be otherwordly or lovecraftian.
But that's not something that should be applied to everything. Sometimes it's better to understand the person, SPECIALLY if that person is doing things that you wouldn't agree. It makes the story help YOU grow as a person and have in mind points of view that you may not understand before.

Of course there's other ways to do this, like exploring someone's backstory, or with some good art/animation so you can show emotion (or lack of) with imagery. Or I guess rambling alone in a room which is just like listening to inner thoughts but somewhat less realistic.
It really just depends on what you want to do, and I'm sure there are scenarios where it would be detrimental to the story to have that, but I don't see that as an absolute truth.


Well I see it as an absolute truth that hearing characters thinking is bad for storytelling. On the other hand I am open for characters with mind reading abilities in the same way I am open for time traveling abilities. But hearing characters think is always a bad storytelling technique. I will ofcourse change my opinion if I agree with someones counterarguments. The main argument I hear is that things needs to be explained, I don't agree with this.
 
Apr 26, 6:54 AM

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Safeanew said:
hairu said:

Anime isn't supposed to be realistic? Characters have their own thoughts. For example if they have their own opinion, but can't say it, how would we know? Inner monologue is the perfect opportunity to express a characters inner thoughts. Characters obviously have their own different opinions, inner monologue can be used to go into depth with this.


But storytelling should tell a story, I am claiming that a story is dialogue so hearing characters think is a detriment to the story, because it have nothing to do with what is happening in the story. If you want to hear what characters think to feel good I don't blame you. But it takes away from the story.

That's the thing inner monologues is part of storytellings. It tells a story of a characters opinion. Also of course it has something to do with the story, why would creators randomly put characters thoughts if it's not in any way relevant, they're obviously including a characters opinion, if a character has a different thought this can change the way the story goes, yes they can just say it in a conversation but circumstances may prevent that, you want something to random to happened then explained through a dialogue between characters at the end of all the controversy?
Not everything can be done with dialogue, understand a situation better can also be done through a characters thoughts. Nothing is taken away from the story, it's PART of the story.
su#4790
 
Apr 26, 6:54 AM

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The most important things in a story is not always dialogue. It is ridiculous to make such a radical claim, as what matters in a story varies depending on what the artist gives the most importance to. What's more, there are a lot of obvious counter-examples to your claim :

In epics, narration is probably the most important element of the story. In novels like Mrs Dalloway or Ulysses, internal monologue is. In frescoes, tapestry and paintings, there are no dialogues, and it doesn't prevent them from telling stories. So whereas it is probably true that dialogue is the most important part of most theatrical pieces and in a lot of movies/cartoons, it is far from being the case in all of storytelling.

I would even say that the most important thing about a work can vary between the individuals who consume it. For some people, the most important thing about Serial Experiments Lain is its dialogues, but for some others, it is its atmosphere.
Modified by thizlas, Apr 26, 6:58 AM
 
Apr 26, 6:55 AM

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It's all about doses. If your character talks to himself half of the story, it isn't good. Just like a monologue for half a story can be bad.

Inner talk is very used in stories told by first point of view teller (a teller who talks from "I" perspective"), though thought can be also found in third point of view tellers (he\she\they perspective).

Also, sometimes actions and thoughts don't go hand in hand.

And let's be real... you live your life like this way. I see you say it distracts you. Having inner thought distracts from your everyday life? Cause everyone has them. You have a hard time with a more complex story. You can't blame anyone for this, like I can't say anime with difficult to understand inner logic is bad just because I don't get it.



 
Apr 26, 6:55 AM

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CrashRHCP said:
Safeanew said:


But storytelling should tell a story, I am claiming that a story is dialogue so hearing characters think is a detriment to the story, because it have nothing to do with what is happening in the story. If you want to hear what characters think to feel good I don't blame you. But it takes away from the story.


Silent manga exists.
https://myanimelist.net/manga/1470/Gon?q=Gon

Also, I guess mute characters are bad now?


No mute characters are fine, I am against quite a specific thing. I am agaisnt hearing characters stream of thought.
 
Apr 26, 6:56 AM

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Safeanew said:

Well I see it as an absolute truth that hearing characters thinking is bad for storytelling. On the other hand I am open for characters with mind reading abilities in the same way I am open for time traveling abilities. But hearing characters think is always a bad storytelling technique. I will ofcourse change my opinion if I agree with someones counterarguments. The main argument I hear is that things needs to be explained, I don't agree with this.


Well, that is because you see dialogue as 100% the most important thing in storytelling, which is I see as a absolutely wrong.
 
Apr 26, 6:58 AM

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hairu said:
Safeanew said:


But storytelling should tell a story, I am claiming that a story is dialogue so hearing characters think is a detriment to the story, because it have nothing to do with what is happening in the story. If you want to hear what characters think to feel good I don't blame you. But it takes away from the story.

That's the thing inner monologues is part of storytellings. It tells a story of a characters opinion. Also of course it has something to do with the story, why would creators randomly put characters thoughts if it's not in any way relevant, they're obviously including a characters opinion, if a character has a different thought this can change the way the story goes, yes they can just say it in a conversation but circumstances may prevent that, you want something to random to happened then explained through a dialogue between characters at the end of all the controversy?
Not everything can be done with dialogue, understand a situation better can also be done through a characters thoughts. Nothing is taken away from the story, it's PART of the story.


Why should the story explain what the character's thinking, feelings and motivations are? Can the characters be allowed to have secrets?
 
Apr 26, 7:00 AM
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Hearing the character's thoughts can be important. But they aren't a waste nor does it mean the show has a bad storytelling. But if you think it does, then so be it. I can't help with that.
 
Apr 26, 7:03 AM

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thizlas said:
The most important things in a story is not always dialogue. It is ridiculous to make such a radical claim, as what matters in a story varies depending on what the artist gives the most importance to. What's more, there are a lot of obvious counter-examples to your claim :

In epics, narration is probably the most important element of the story. In novels like Mrs Dalloway or Ulysses, internal monologue is. In frescoes, tapestry and paintings, there are no dialogues, and it doesn't prevent them from telling stories. So whereas it is probably true that dialogue is the most important part of most theatrical pieces and in a lot of movies/cartoons, it is far from being the case in all of storytelling.

I would even say that the most important thing about a work can vary between the individuals who consume it. For some people, the most important thing about Serial Experiments Lain is its dialogues, but for some others, it is its atmosphere.


In novels the internal monologues is it's own self destruction, the most important thing in novels is dialogue. What the audience want does not matter, I am claiming that the essence of a story is dialogue. The rest is nothing else then poetry.
 
Apr 26, 7:04 AM

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Counterpoint, that bit in the Tekken OVA where Lee says "Good to see you made it, brother" only to immediately show him thinking, "SHIT!"
 
Apr 26, 7:06 AM

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EfiChan said:
It's all about doses. If your character talks to himself half of the story, it isn't good. Just like a monologue for half a story can be bad.

Inner talk is very used in stories told by first point of view teller (a teller who talks from "I" perspective"), though thought can be also found in third point of view tellers (he\she\they perspective).

Also, sometimes actions and thoughts don't go hand in hand.

And let's be real... you live your life like this way. I see you say it distracts you. Having inner thought distracts from your everyday life? Cause everyone has them. You have a hard time with a more complex story. You can't blame anyone for this, like I can't say anime with difficult to understand inner logic is bad just because I don't get it.



It is bad because it is less complex to hear characters think. I don't mind first person narration, just avoid stream of thought.
 
Apr 26, 7:07 AM

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ReaperCreeper said:
Counterpoint, that bit in the Tekken OVA where Lee says "Good to see you made it, brother" only to immediately show him thinking, "SHIT!"


A "tch!" or some body reaction would be better.
 
Apr 26, 7:13 AM

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Safeanew said:
EfiChan said:
It's all about doses. If your character talks to himself half of the story, it isn't good. Just like a monologue for half a story can be bad.

Inner talk is very used in stories told by first point of view teller (a teller who talks from "I" perspective"), though thought can be also found in third point of view tellers (he\she\they perspective).

Also, sometimes actions and thoughts don't go hand in hand.

And let's be real... you live your life like this way. I see you say it distracts you. Having inner thought distracts from your everyday life? Cause everyone has them. You have a hard time with a more complex story. You can't blame anyone for this, like I can't say anime with difficult to understand inner logic is bad just because I don't get it.



It is bad because it is less complex to hear characters think. I don't mind first person narration, just avoid stream of thought.

Okay, you have your opinion. Whatever, as you see, most don't agree with you. And there's no point to make all the other think like you.


 
Apr 26, 7:16 AM

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EfiChan said:
Safeanew said:


It is bad because it is less complex to hear characters think. I don't mind first person narration, just avoid stream of thought.

Okay, you have your opinion. Whatever, as you see, most don't agree with you. And there's no point to make all the other think like you.


There is no point in discussion, that is the point of discussion, that is how people learn new things.
 
Apr 26, 7:16 AM

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Safeanew said:
Tannhauser said:
I presume you have never read a novel.


This apply to novels too, hearing what the character thinks is bad for the novel.


Not always. In excess, then yes, more or less always, but as an avid reader there have been many great novels I've read where peoples thoughts were handled very well. Have you ever read Dune? That handles inner thoughts very, very well and is in fact essential to the plot.

In anime though, a visual medium, I agree that too much inner monologue is a massive detriment. Don't get me started on Death Note!

(I know it's not a popular opinion but I personally found that show to be barely a step above garbage and nowhere near "average", largely because of the continuous inner monologue and massive logical leaps/deus ex machina moments required to move the plot forward).

Also it's incredibly naive to believe that only dialogue makes a good story. Sure, in most cases, written or visual, dialogue is an essential part, but there are some great stories with very little dialogue that is all based on a characters thoughts and perspectives, off the top of my head some of the classic Poe stories (Fall of the House of Usher, for one) and some of the more introspective sci-fi novels.
Modified by CallMeHoot, Apr 26, 7:30 AM
Like I told my last wife, I said "Honey, I never drive faster than I can see. Besides that, it's all in the reflexes." - Jack Burton
 
Apr 26, 7:17 AM

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Inner monologues are called good writing.
Life has no meaning.
 
Apr 26, 7:17 AM
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I think that hearing character's thoughts helps understanding them, and by understanding them you can relate to them and feel more empathy and this also helps by making you feel more involved by the story.
And btw I don't think that hearing character's thoughts is like letting the author say what your opinion should be, he is just presenting his point of view, then it's up to you to share it or not.
 
Apr 26, 7:18 AM

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Nurguburu said:
Inner monologues are called good writing.


You win the award for the most incorrect statement in this thread :)
Like I told my last wife, I said "Honey, I never drive faster than I can see. Besides that, it's all in the reflexes." - Jack Burton
 
Apr 26, 7:20 AM

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CallMeHoot said:
Safeanew said:


This apply to novels too, hearing what the character thinks is bad for the novel.


Not always. In excess, then yes, more or less always, but as an avid reader there have been many great novels I've read where peoples thoughts were handled very well. Have you ever read Dune? That handles inner thoughts very, very well and is in fact essential to the plot.

In anime though, a visual medium, I agree that too much inner monologue is a massive detriment. Don't get me started on Death Note!

(I know it's not a popular opinion but I personally found that show to be barely a step above garbage and nowhere near "average", largely because of the continuous inner monologue and massive logical leaps/deus ex machina moments required to move the plot forward).


I will look into Dune. Is it possible to describe how Dune uses inner monologue and in what way it is essential to the story?
 
Apr 26, 7:21 AM

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Safeanew said:
EfiChan said:

Okay, you have your opinion. Whatever, as you see, most don't agree with you. And there's no point to make all the other think like you.


There is no point in discussion, that is the point of discussion, that is how people learn new things.

Discussion is not forcing your ideas on others. It feels like the only point of this discussion is to prove yourself right and make all the other change their thoughts. In disscussion you listen to the other not just dismiss it just because it's oposing your thought.


 
Apr 26, 7:22 AM

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Safeanew said:

Why should the story explain what the character's thinking, feelings and motivations are? Can the characters be allowed to have secrets?

You're not being serious right? You want the story to have no character opinions at all? How boring would that be. You obviously do not see how important a character feelings are.
su#4790
 
Apr 26, 7:23 AM

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Safeanew said:
CallMeHoot said:


Not always. In excess, then yes, more or less always, but as an avid reader there have been many great novels I've read where peoples thoughts were handled very well. Have you ever read Dune? That handles inner thoughts very, very well and is in fact essential to the plot.

In anime though, a visual medium, I agree that too much inner monologue is a massive detriment. Don't get me started on Death Note!

(I know it's not a popular opinion but I personally found that show to be barely a step above garbage and nowhere near "average", largely because of the continuous inner monologue and massive logical leaps/deus ex machina moments required to move the plot forward).


I will look into Dune. Is it possible to describe how Dune uses inner monologue and in what way it is essential to the story?


Glad you asked ;) It's a sci-fi novel and prescience is a big theme in it. Later, omniscience comes in as well. It's also very machiavellian in that the whole thing is basically one big web of intrigue and betrayal and hearing the thoughts on occasion of the main characters is critical to give you an understanding as to why a character acts a certain way despite thinking or knowing very differently.

It's a complicated novel, all I'd say is give it a try :) It's not for everyone, but if you can get past the fact it has it's own glossary of terms section and get into it, it's a brilliant novel.
Like I told my last wife, I said "Honey, I never drive faster than I can see. Besides that, it's all in the reflexes." - Jack Burton
 
Apr 26, 7:24 AM

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Wolowizard said:
I think that hearing character's thoughts helps understanding them, and by understanding them you can relate to them and feel more empathy and this also helps by making you feel more involved by the story.
And btw I don't think that hearing character's thoughts is like letting the author say what your opinion should be, he is just presenting his point of view, then it's up to you to share it or not.


My problem with inner monologue is partly because it often is based on the myth that we can understand ourselves. By showing stream of thought, characters become magically relatable because we enter this myth of a person. That is also why I am against empathy.
 
Apr 26, 7:25 AM
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Making the audience hear the characters' thoughts is a form of storytelling. Whether you like it or not does not define it to be bad or good. If your argument for it is that it hinders dialogue, I could also say that it adds to the dialogue by letting us understand what the characters are thinking when they're speaking. It's not like time flows normally when the characters' thoughts are being shown so it isn't used to fill up empty space.
 
Apr 26, 7:26 AM

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EfiChan said:
Safeanew said:


There is no point in discussion, that is the point of discussion, that is how people learn new things.

Discussion is not forcing your ideas on others. It feels like the only point of this discussion is to prove yourself right and make all the other change their thoughts. In disscussion you listen to the other not just dismiss it just because it's oposing your thought.


That is actually what you are doing, you don't want to discuss the topic, you just don't want to leave until I am proven wrong.
 
Apr 26, 7:28 AM

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hairu said:
Safeanew said:

Why should the story explain what the character's thinking, feelings and motivations are? Can the characters be allowed to have secrets?

You're not being serious right? You want the story to have no character opinions at all? How boring would that be. You obviously do not see how important a character feelings are.


It depends how the writer is crafting a plot or a character arc. For example, sometimes the writer wants the reader/viewer to know something the character himself does not, as in the typical betrayal plot. So we'll hear the inner thoughts of someone opposed to the character in question and we'll know he's a shifty bastard but the character himself will still see him as a friend.

Or, the writer might want whats going on to be a secret to both the viewer/reader and the character and so in that case there's no need to hear the inner thoughts of the shifty bastard, and we'll go on believing its all jake until it all goes pear shaped.

(Apologies for the roughness of this analogy, I'm eating :P)
Like I told my last wife, I said "Honey, I never drive faster than I can see. Besides that, it's all in the reflexes." - Jack Burton
 
Apr 26, 7:28 AM

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hairu said:
Safeanew said:

Why should the story explain what the character's thinking, feelings and motivations are? Can the characters be allowed to have secrets?

You're not being serious right? You want the story to have no character opinions at all? How boring would that be. You obviously do not see how important a character feelings are.


No telling character's feelings are not important, if anything feelings are important because they can't be stated.
 
Apr 26, 7:33 AM

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CallMeHoot said:
Safeanew said:


I will look into Dune. Is it possible to describe how Dune uses inner monologue and in what way it is essential to the story?


Glad you asked ;) It's a sci-fi novel and prescience is a big theme in it. Later, omniscience comes in as well. It's also very machiavellian in that the whole thing is basically one big web of intrigue and betrayal and hearing the thoughts on occasion of the main characters is critical to give you an understanding as to why a character acts a certain way despite thinking or knowing very differently.

It's a complicated novel, all I'd say is give it a try :) It's not for everyone, but if you can get past the fact it has it's own glossary of terms section and get into it, it's a brilliant novel.


It sounds interesting, I may not agree fully that it is needed but if the subject is omniscience I can see it being used artistically. If stream of thought is used to show inconsistencies then I like it more.
 
Apr 26, 7:34 AM

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Safeanew said:
thizlas said:
The most important things in a story is not always dialogue. It is ridiculous to make such a radical claim, as what matters in a story varies depending on what the artist gives the most importance to. What's more, there are a lot of obvious counter-examples to your claim :

In epics, narration is probably the most important element of the story. In novels like Mrs Dalloway or Ulysses, internal monologue is. In frescoes, tapestry and paintings, there are no dialogues, and it doesn't prevent them from telling stories. So whereas it is probably true that dialogue is the most important part of most theatrical pieces and in a lot of movies/cartoons, it is far from being the case in all of storytelling.

I would even say that the most important thing about a work can vary between the individuals who consume it. For some people, the most important thing about Serial Experiments Lain is its dialogues, but for some others, it is its atmosphere.


In novels the internal monologues is it's own self destruction, the most important thing in novels is dialogue. What the audience want does not matter, I am claiming that the essence of a story is dialogue. The rest is nothing else then poetry.


1. You didn't answer most of my arguments, and you didn't use any.
2. Who are you to decide what storytelling is ? It's fine if you make up new definitions for yourself, but don't force them on others.
3. No, the most important thing about novels isn't always dialogues. The balzacian narrator, for instance, is a hundred times more important than dialogues.

Edit : Sad said enough to definitively close this discussion, I fully agree with them
Modified by thizlas, Apr 26, 7:41 AM
 
Apr 26, 7:35 AM

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Safeanew said:
hairu said:

You're not being serious right? You want the story to have no character opinions at all? How boring would that be. You obviously do not see how important a character feelings are.


No telling character's feelings are not important, if anything feelings are important because they can't be stated.


Well, they can and again, I go back to writing, because it all depends on the writer and how it's written.

For example, take these two sentences :-

"She stormed across the room and slammed the door on her way out."

"She felt anger rise in her, like black bile in her throat. The door slammed as she stormed out."

Now, both essentially say the same thing. You can infer in the first case that the character is angry, or at least pissed off, but you're not entirely sure. She could also be in a rush? Context is important here. In the second case though, there can be no mistake, and it also reads a little more colourfully which is nice as when you're reading if the prose is consistently flat it just makes for a boring read.

Again, these are communicated entirely without dialogue. I mean this in the nicest possible way, but I think it's very naive of you (and perhaps you aren't as well read as you might think) if you are under the false assumption that "dialogue is everything", because it simply isn't.
Like I told my last wife, I said "Honey, I never drive faster than I can see. Besides that, it's all in the reflexes." - Jack Burton
 
Apr 26, 7:35 AM

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Safeanew said:
The most important thing in storytelling is dialogue.
Hearing character's thoughts hinder dialogue by filling up moments of silence.

not only is this culturally ignorant - but the lions share of communication is non verbal. if dialogue is the most important component, how was storytelling in the silent film era so coherent?

this is a basic rundown of how we communicate;

stimulus>detection>co-ordination>response

this is basic biology.

before there's any dialogue, your brain needs to process the stimuli to produce a response that is appropriate. but not all forms of communication need a physical response, like dialogue. if a character is at the start of the race - and they see the green go sign, is it appropriate that they yell out "GO!" as a response? if they're approaching an apex, do they need speak what their intentions are for us to know what they're gonna do?

dialogue isn't the most important component of communication, and certainly not storytelling. if someone speaks to us in another language, we'll run through all identifiable words, ethnicity, accent, our environent and try and link them all into a response that is appropriate - in the case of a foreign tourist asking for directions, the ideal response would be to answer them in the way they asked - verbally. if our brain processes this in a way that leads to a negative response attempting this - it will explore other avenues. google translate. attempt at amateur signing. ignorance. asking someone else for help. attempting a middle ground of english or related language. all of this has occured before 'dialogue'

have you considered a situation where a character cannot speak - but has a multitude of thoughts that they can't take action on physically, or that dialogue may actually be too emotionally heavy to bear?

there's lots of reasons why saying goodbye can be so hard for someone, it's not for the lack of words, or situation for 'dialogue' - but because we as humans can create an appropriate reponse that fully encompasses what we think.

have you never said goodbye to someone but thought to yourself 'don't go'? hearing the thoughts of characters can be just as powerful as dialogue, if not more.

quite simply - i think you need to experience a wider variety of media and come back to this thread in a years time.
 
Apr 26, 7:36 AM

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CallMeHoot said:
Nurguburu said:
Inner monologues are called good writing.


You win the award for the most incorrect statement in this thread :)


No, you have to explain.

I prefer inner monologues instead of characters being dumb.
Life has no meaning.
 
Apr 26, 7:36 AM

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trenchantbaka said:
Making the audience hear the characters' thoughts is a form of storytelling. Whether you like it or not does not define it to be bad or good. If your argument for it is that it hinders dialogue, I could also say that it adds to the dialogue by letting us understand what the characters are thinking when they're speaking. It's not like time flows normally when the characters' thoughts are being shown so it isn't used to fill up empty space.


I disagree completely with this. Dialogue is the clash of words, if you fill up space with thoughts that is a detriment to the clash of words.
 
Apr 26, 7:39 AM

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Nurguburu said:
CallMeHoot said:


You win the award for the most incorrect statement in this thread :)


No, you have to explain.

I prefer inner monologues instead of characters being dumb.


Well, what you said was "Inner monologues are called good writing." That's a blanket statement. On top of that, it just isn't true.

The inner monologues in Death Note were trash and a poor veil for a thin plot and lack of character action. That's just one example.

Your second statement "I prefer inner monologues instead of characters being dumb." is one I have no issue with. That's a fair statement, it's your preference so hey, that's great.

And I do agree that inner monologues can be good, great even, it all depends on the handling.
Like I told my last wife, I said "Honey, I never drive faster than I can see. Besides that, it's all in the reflexes." - Jack Burton
 
Apr 26, 7:43 AM
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Safeanew said:
trenchantbaka said:
Making the audience hear the characters' thoughts is a form of storytelling. Whether you like it or not does not define it to be bad or good. If your argument for it is that it hinders dialogue, I could also say that it adds to the dialogue by letting us understand what the characters are thinking when they're speaking. It's not like time flows normally when the characters' thoughts are being shown so it isn't used to fill up empty space.


I disagree completely with this. Dialogue is the clash of words, if you fill up space with thoughts that is a detriment to the clash of words.

You should read the post before replying. I said monologue isn't used to fill up space. If you don't agree with that then explain why. And dialogue is produced from thoughts, yet dialogues cannot fully convey entire thoughts. Monologues make the dialogue more rich and vibrant if not done terribly.
 
Apr 26, 7:47 AM

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thizlas said:
Safeanew said:


In novels the internal monologues is it's own self destruction, the most important thing in novels is dialogue. What the audience want does not matter, I am claiming that the essence of a story is dialogue. The rest is nothing else then poetry.


1. You didn't answer most of my arguments, and you didn't use any.
2. Who are you to decide what storytelling is ? It's fine if you make up new definitions for yourself, but don't force them on others.
3. No, the most important thing about novels isn't always dialogues. The balzacian narrator, for instance, is a hundred times more important than dialogues.


Can you explain The balzacian narrator? I have not criticized narration. My only problem is with stream of thought. If I should not force defintions of storytelling on others, who should? I am just stating what I believe to be true. You just claimed that different genres have different priorities, I answered the thing that had anything to do with what I was saying. The dialogue is the most important because it is what makes a character. Without dialogue in any form the character is lost. Mute characters are interesting because they become inhuman without their speech which is an interesting topic to explore.
 
Apr 26, 7:48 AM

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Safeanew said:
trenchantbaka said:
Making the audience hear the characters' thoughts is a form of storytelling. Whether you like it or not does not define it to be bad or good. If your argument for it is that it hinders dialogue, I could also say that it adds to the dialogue by letting us understand what the characters are thinking when they're speaking. It's not like time flows normally when the characters' thoughts are being shown so it isn't used to fill up empty space.


I disagree completely with this. Dialogue is the clash of words, if you fill up space with thoughts that is a detriment to the clash of words.


Again, I gotta point out man that this just isn't true. I mean I'm not a great writer or anything, I dabble in the occasional daft short story but maybe I'm missing what you're actually trying to say.

---

Another example :-

"Look, Jim, I didn't mean it. Honest to God, man."
Jim only looked at him, trying to work out if it was true. Could it really have been a mistake? He didn't think so. In fact he thought was being played. Was he really gonna let this cheap suit get one up on him? Like hell he was. Jim allowed himself a small sigh, thinking to himself that he wasn't going to let this go.

---

Ok, bad writing I agree (but I'm not a pro and rapid composition is not exactly my strong point), but at least it serves to illustrate a section of story that is based on one persons non-verbal response to some dialogue. We see here Jim's stream of thoughts. This doesn't detract from the dialogue written, as you seem to suggest, in fact it adds to the scene.

As I say man, maybe I'm missing out on what you're actually trying to convey but without specific examples I can only go off what's here :) And I have to tell you that pure dialogue works in very, very few cases and if there's nothing else but dialogue, you've likely written a bad story/show.
Like I told my last wife, I said "Honey, I never drive faster than I can see. Besides that, it's all in the reflexes." - Jack Burton
 
Apr 26, 7:51 AM

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CallMeHoot said:
Safeanew said:


No telling character's feelings are not important, if anything feelings are important because they can't be stated.


Well, they can and again, I go back to writing, because it all depends on the writer and how it's written.

For example, take these two sentences :-

"She stormed across the room and slammed the door on her way out."

"She felt anger rise in her, like black bile in her throat. The door slammed as she stormed out."

Now, both essentially say the same thing. You can infer in the first case that the character is angry, or at least pissed off, but you're not entirely sure. She could also be in a rush? Context is important here. In the second case though, there can be no mistake, and it also reads a little more colourfully which is nice as when you're reading if the prose is consistently flat it just makes for a boring read.

Again, these are communicated entirely without dialogue. I mean this in the nicest possible way, but I think it's very naive of you (and perhaps you aren't as well read as you might think) if you are under the false assumption that "dialogue is everything", because it simply isn't.


That is very poetic, it does not add anything to the story but it makes it easier for the reader, that is my point. I am fine with using it, but my point is that it does not help in telling the story, it always is a sacrifice of the flow of the story.
 
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