Peaceful_Critic said: Sad said: This is a response to my post, correct? Alright, gonna assume it is as you judging how you said it like it was obviously stupid(you probably aren't gonna respond to me). As a side note, this isn't for you, moreso me or others reading the thread as you made an interesting pointhonest to god - returning to this thread i hoped for reason and resolution, instead i'm reading about turning the volume down of media and using games that restrict exposure to literary devices for gameplay as supporting statements for OP. i can confirm this exemplary discussion has truly hit rock bottom and all participants should face the mountain in single combat. The fact that the game could do that stands as proof that you don't need it(which was my main point:" I mean, it's not inherently bad, but I don't think it's as needed as others say.") I explained why I liked the characters for the lack of monologue and how missing that element could make them stronger("As an example of mystery in cases like Ouma where part of his appeal is figuring out if he's telling the truth or lying and that aspect of his character simply wouldn't be as strong if you knew the character's thought process."). hi, i've played DR, and i'm in total agreement that the lack of light shed on the thought processes makes the entire experience thrilling - and is indeed proof that internal monologue is not neccessary. but, going back to the thesis of OP - you're driving down a different track but think you're in their passenger seat on this topic. They're outright stating that it's an aspect of storytelling which is bad. i am not here to dispute whether it's an element of storytelling which can be successfully excluded or not, as your game example entails, i'm here to say that anyone who believes that it's a method of storytelling that is shit - has to answer to centuries of literature and now modern media using internal monologue in various creative ways for storytelling to great success. |
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Peaceful_Critic said: You are really mature on that, I wasn't expecting you to take it so well(most people, including me, don't). Nah, you didn't come off as a tool(this definition anyway: "A tool is someone who lacks the capacity to realize they're being used by someone else. "-preply). Well, good night. Lol, where I come from "tool" is more or less the same as "dickhead". If I was comparing the two sentences for a different reason maybe, but as I said, the examples illustrated my point perfectly. I'm glad you at least understood that. I'm really done now :) Nighty night. |
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Safeanew said: Daphi said: i have to disagree yakusoku no neverland is a perfect example why the anime should have implemented the inner monologues, that was the reason its inferior to the manga I can't comment on the yakusoku no neverland but I will look it up. Why does the inner monologues need to be included? The show is garbage af without them. The manga is infinitely superior because they weren't included in The Promised Neverland anime. Like its not even close. I read the manga and I was so hyped for the anime but it was missing what I loved about it. The psychotic warfare that only the inner monologues could give it. |
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Peaceful_Critic said: Sad said: Nice analogy, it put a smile on my face when I read it. Weren't you referring to me though when you said this: "using games that restrict exposure to literary devices for gameplay as supporting statements for OP"?hi, i've played DR, and i'm in total agreement that the lack of light shed on the thought processes makes the entire experience thrilling - and is indeed proof that internal monologue is not neccessary. but, going back to the thesis of OP - you're driving down a different track but think you're in their passenger seat on this topic. They're outright stating that it's an aspect of storytelling which is bad. i am not here to dispute whether it's an element of storytelling which can be successfully excluded or not, as your game example entails, i'm here to say that anyone who believes that it's a method of storytelling that is shit - has to answer to centuries of literature and now modern media using internal monologue in various creative ways for storytelling to great success. of course - i highlighted it because your example didn't actually support the OP, even though it appears that was your intention. you listed a good example in which internal monologue can be positively excluded for storytelling, but that doesn't actually support the statement that the use of internal monologue is outright bad storytelling, just that it's one of the many interchangable elements of storytelling that can be used, or not used. |
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Peaceful_Critic said: Sad said: I mean, I do agree partly as I stated in my original post("Anyway, I see where you are coming from, and I partly agree"). One thing OP claimed, that a lot of people thought were wrong was this: "No telling character's feelings are not important"of course - i highlighted it because your example didn't actually support the OP, even though it appears that was your intention. you listed a good example in which internal monologue can be positively excluded for storytelling, but that doesn't actually support the statement that the use of internal monologue is outright bad storytelling, just that it's one of the many interchangable elements of storytelling that can be used, or not used. In this thread, a good majority of people said that you needed inner monologues. I also think most inner monologues are unnecessary and lazy where the anime would stand stronger on its own(" I was watching Amagi Brilliant Park and like Measume-kun Revenge the character monologued how amazing they are when you could literally see him checking himself out. Monologues are often used as a lazy device to tell you the obvious"). Which is something OP seems to agree with me on as well: "That is very poetic, it does not add anything to the story but it makes it easier for the reader, that is my point." I said party as it's not a bad aspect, just used poorly. I addressed your only valid example, as i thought it was partially relevant yet still not quite in line with the intentions of the OP. the rest of your post quite frankly - was absolutely atrocious. your commentary on western animation and sweeping statements regarding internal monologue usage are akin to a conversation i'd overhear in a pub, laugh at, and then finish my beer. |
| the official MAL hall of fame/cursed comments is now open for business - you are welcome to PM me any potential quotes to include |
petran79 said: Stream of conscioussness appeared 100 years ago in prose as a reaction to realism and conventional narrative prose. It was influenced by the breakthroughs of Psychology during that time. It is not a matter of bad narrative but it had to do with the fact that realism and conventional prose had become stale and a change was needed. Joyce, Proust and William James works were and still are groundbreaking this sums it best: https://owlcation.com/humanities/Edouard-Dujardin-James-Joyce-and-Stream-of-Consciousness-Writing Stream of consciousness narrative isn't for everyone. Some writers are not convinced of the technique within a novel, saying it distracts from the plot and can put the reader off. There's no doubt that some of Joyce's work is perplexing to read;innovative it may be but the average reader might liken it to a form of mental torture! Personally I think books like Ulysses and Finnegan's Wake are best approached as poetry - you have to alter your mindset before taking them on. This is very interesting comment, thanks for sharing. I think I like stream of conscioussness writing, what I claim is good narrative is a focus on dialogues between people (even silent ones). Inner monologue and stream of conscioussness is often poetic in the sense that they are made by the authors thinking process and not so much the authors dialogue with other people. In the worst case there will only be one voice in the novel, as in every character is talking in the same way. Hearing characters thoughts is a smaller step in this direction. I criticize inner monologue because I look for depictions of conflict and often inner monologues hinder or avoid them. Also many shows avoid silence by using inner monologue. |
thizlas said: Safeanew said: What is the main arguments of that link? Aphasic people seem to still understand formulaic expressions, is there any aphasic people without any language related ability and how can one prove their intelligence. There are several points, and some of them far exceed my knowledge, but the main one is that there is such a thing as non-verbal thought. Among the evidence they use, are the facts that people whose part of the left hemisphere that controls language was destroyed are still able to fair well in non-verbal formal tests. What's more, the study of people whose two hemispheres were isolated shows that the right hemisphere, even though it is not the one language is located in, is capable of learning, taking decisions and making logical choices in a way that doesn't seem to be simply automatic. Some animals and humans who don't yet know/haven't been taught language are also able to think very well. Artificial neuron networks, which seem to be able to produce thought without using language, also suggest the possibility that the brain, at its core, could think in a non-symbolic manner. Keep in mind that the article is more than 15 years old though, and that it might be outdated. It's the only article I could easily find in French, but there are probably plenty of others in English available on the Internet. This one, for instance, seems interesting : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4874898/# I will look into this! Thanks for sharing! |
Jarylo_R said: NbQuil said: In that case, how would you ever have a good storytelling if the MC is supposed to be someone introverted. Without the inner dialogue, it's not possible to understand the character's thoughts and beliefs. It's not like extroverts share their innermost thoughts and beliefs either. The only reason we hear the character's thoughts it's because it's adapted from a manga. Well, my point was that an extravert tend to say more and act more, so it's easier to infer their personality from their action. An introvert typically doesn't act out in social situation, so it's difficult to understand them. Of course you can't know someone's innermost thought, but it's easier to get an idea of what an extravert's beliefs are through their action. |
WHEN IT RAINS, IT POURS. |
Cevoy said: Safeanew said: Yeah the Chimera Ant Arc invasion would be better if it was completely silent. All those thoughts distract from what is actually happening. Then turn the volume completely of while watching it Why? I still want to hear the narrator and sounds. |
Snot-nosed_Brat said: First of all, to imply a tool in storytelling itself is bad is wrongheaded. It is only as good or bad as the author/screenwriter/director utilizes it. Second of all, inner monologues are different from straight exposition. While straight exposition is just dumping info about the world or story, inner monologues have a special conditions that makes them useful storytelling tools. One, that they can convey or emphasize ideas that otherwise would not be able to merely be shown, and two, the narrator of an inner monologue is not omnipresent of a situation i.e. they have their own voice that may not reliably reflect the reality of their world. Also known as unreliable narrators. By saying inner monologues are bad, you are also saying unreliable narrators are bad, which is wrong and stupid because they often make for really engaging stories. A storytelling tool can be bad! If they are not very useful or hinder your goals in storytelling, then they are bad. I never said unreliable narrators are bad. It is inner monologue that is bad, not because they are unreliable, rather they are too reliable. Can you give examples on ideas that can't be shown? |
hairu said: Inner monologue helps us understand what the character is thinking? A characters thoughts help the tension build? Inner monologue helps us see each characters perspective? If conversation is the only form of speech then how would we understand the characters, you want them to think out loud or something? Exactly in real life its more or so otherwise I suppose |
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Sad said: Peaceful_Critic said: I mean, I do agree partly as I stated in my original post("Anyway, I see where you are coming from, and I partly agree"). One thing OP claimed, that a lot of people thought were wrong was this: "No telling character's feelings are not important" In this thread, a good majority of people said that you needed inner monologues. I also think most inner monologues are unnecessary and lazy where the anime would stand stronger on its own(" I was watching Amagi Brilliant Park and like Measume-kun Revenge the character monologued how amazing they are when you could literally see him checking himself out. Monologues are often used as a lazy device to tell you the obvious"). Which is something OP seems to agree with me on as well: "That is very poetic, it does not add anything to the story but it makes it easier for the reader, that is my point." I said party as it's not a bad aspect, just used poorly. I addressed your only valid example, as i thought it was partially relevant yet still not quite in line with the intentions of the OP. the rest of your post quite frankly - was absolutely atrocious. your commentary on western animation and sweeping statements regarding internal monologue usage are akin to a conversation i'd overhear in a pub, laugh at, and then finish my beer. It was mostly in line with my position, Peaceful_Critic have also made better examples than I have. I am not against using inner monologues, my claim is that it is bad for the story. It is bad because it for example takes away the mystery of characters and it is often 'more for less' in that you hear more things to understand less more clearly. I am for 'less for more' in that by taking away inner monologue the audience experience the character as they are without hearing some 'hidden truth'. This is especially useful when one wants to have intense dialogues that show the different ways people act and think. |
Ace12_ said: NO, it's not Think about the character like Hachiman Doesn't hearing his thought make it more interesting? Hachiman is funny, but it is not a big part of the story. The story is showed mostly by his actions and their dialogues. His thoughts are mostly added jokes. |
| Blame! seems like its up your alley then. The manga that is. |
Tannhauser said: I presume you have never read a novel. First thing that came to mind! Remember that people are like this because they're being raised on Netflix storytelling. |
| a vague blanket statement like this is absolutely insane it obviously depends on what the work is trying to do |
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| I don't think it is bad storytelling. But it is great storytelling if you manage without it. I love the US tv series Better Caul Saul cause it manages to use voive/intonation, facial expressin, gestures and dialogue to convey the chars feelings. There is barely (at least I don't remember at all) any inner monologue. For anime this might be harder (especially with facial expressions and stuff ... but then again for real non-anime it needs good actors as well). For reading a novel: I think it feels different. The pacing for reading is already slower. I'd prefer to read some inner monologue over having every facial expression or intonation of voice, ... described in too much detail. |
| What an absolutely chock full thread of nonsense word soup and pseudo intellectualism. Let's just address a few of the points brought up here in simple terms that everyone can understand. 1. Can inner dialogue always be replaced with an action? No, in many cases what the character is thinking about conveys important information to the reader/viewer that helps them understand the story as a whole better, and this information can not always be directly influenced upon by the acting character at the time. A good example of this is in A Song of Ice and Fire when Tyrion is thinking about the many bannermen coming to King's Landing while quizzing Podric about them. We learn about the general state of the world and we learn more about a lot of characters that clues the reader in about what happens later in the story during times when other characters don't have access to the same information. 2. Is it a bad thing that people should easily understand what is going on in the story? No, stories are not games with failure states where you're meant to be overcoming some big challenge in understanding them. The easier they are to be understood, the better. And even if the story is in a mystery themed video game the ultimate goal is always for the consumer of the story to understand it in the end. Being hard to understand is not the same as withholding information from the reader to deliver stronger emotional impact later on. There is a time and place for it but not always. Oh, and poems have nothing to do with this. There are stories and poems that are open for interpretation and there are stories and poems that are not. 3. But I can't read minds, why should I be hearing the inner dialogue of the character? You're not in the story, you're the reader/viewer, not the characters around the protagonists. You have no influence or bearing upon the story other than to enjoy it. It really is as simple as that. 4. But the character needs to be allowed to have secrets. Stop, you're forgetting again that you're not in the story. You're the audience, you get to know everything, even if the characters don't. Just as long as knowing doesn't harm the suspense. 5. But it hurts the flow of the story, right? That is entirely dependant on the writer. Good writers use inner dialogue well, poor writers use it poorly. I'm honestly kind of curious what books you have read at this point that make you feel like inner dialogue is bad for the story. If you list only 30 fictional novels that you've read chances are I've read some of them and then I'll maybe be better able to understand where you are coming from, because I'm honestly expecting to see you type out some of the poorer titles out there as examples. |
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| I understand what do you say but most people want to know character's thoughts and feelings. Somethimes this is the most important thing in the story for them. (Actually most of anime from manga, you know. This is the answer for why there are inner monologues in stories) I dont think character's thoughts are ruin the story. For example, I love psychological genre so I want to know sometimes their thoughts, feelings. I'm thinking that your point is not bad but there are different stories. Not all the same. I'm sure, you'll find something good for your taste If you're gonna search. |
Stygian_Prisoner said: EfiChan said: Discussion is not forcing your ideas on others. It feels like the only point of this discussion is to prove yourself right and make all the other change their thoughts. In disscussion you listen to the other not just dismiss it just because it's oposing your thought. Welcome to the average @Safeanew discussion thread. First time? Uhh... I think so... the picture doesn't seem familiar. |
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It's always some outrageous/wrong proposition that then gets clumsily but stubbornly defended against much better arguments, just for the sake of it. It's best to stay away in my experience, nothing interesting happens in these threads. It's just exhausting to even read these 'discussions', nevermind taking part in them. I honestly see these threads as borderline spam or trolling. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| Only read the first two pages, but from the OP's responses, it's obvious that this is a troll thread. Mods, it's about time to end this farce |
 What's the difference? |
| I think you forgot to put in your /s. Some of the best storytelling is done from inner monologue. One of my favorite novels, American Psycho by Bret Easton Ellis, is almost entirely done in the mind of the main character and it's quite compelling. |
Peaceful_Critic said: AyumiVk said: I agree with it, read my post on this page, and fight me on it. Wow, this is honestly one of the most stupid things i've ever read. Monologues are great when used well, and yeah every character doesnt need them but there are some who do. Some stories are told using a lot of the characters inner thoughts because they cant really tell you how they feel using speech (light novels do this a lot) and thats not lazy writing in any way. The examples you brought up like mazamune-kun i can see your point though, and the way danganronpa only shows you the main character's monologues is just because the way the story was made, a mystery, so of course they cant have you the player know what the other character you are not controlling think because of the murders and stuff. I can totally see why they arent used and i like that they arent in situations like that, but what applies to danganronpa and etc doesnt aply to all stories like what OP made it sound like. |
ayumiisApr 27, 2019 11:04 AM
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Peaceful_Critic said: No offense, but is the OP your boyfriend, or something? Why are you answering for him? I can see that you're at least reading the counter-arguments and making reasonable debate (which i respect). But i say if the OP is unwilling or unable to defend and back up his own flimsy and grossly generalized statement by himself and without repeating the same couple of sentences ad nauseam, then he should be left to wallow in his own self-delusion. |
Stygian_PrisonerApr 27, 2019 11:20 AM
| Just when you thought MAL users couldn't surprise you anymore |
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petran79 said: Peaceful_Critic said: Western Animation doesn't use inner monologues much though. I do experience that medium as well, and most rarely use it(i.e. Courage, Tom and Jerry don't talk at all in their shows). You don't need a character thinking they are great when their actions and/or indirect implications through dialogue can say the same thing in a more interesting way. How a character is executed is important, and monologues, where characters explain themselves, is less interesting than seeing the character just do the action or imply it with their dialogue. Take a character who is arrogant, wouldn't a good way to show it is through him commenting on others as worse than him or making a huge show of their appearance? My main gripe with the inner monologues of these actions is that they say the "no duh" type of things. As a 3rd example, I'm watching Shuffle right now, and the mc's "I was a jerk, I didn't think of other girls" was shown already more effectively. As the show had you watch the aloofness of the girls, the last few episodes dealing with said girl, his reactions to that aloofness and his expressions as a husband to that girl made the point in a more interesting way. The climax where he put the pieces together when he saw how much the other girls were convinced they lost was shown. The monologue was just there to make it obvious. One example of inner monologue done right in Western animation, is that masterpiece stop motion film by the Quay brothers, based on a novel by Solaris author Stanislaw Lem. I would not even call that inner monologue, that is closer to narration from first person. |
| True, lets just make every anime like Angel's Egg where we have no idea what's going on. |
| Why so many comments for an obvious troll post? |
"Doubting everything that you take on... That is very important. Open your own eyes, clear out your ears, and look and listen to the world... And think using your own brain. After you've doubted everything, there is a possibility of something real to believe in. To believe in something, doubt everything." |
pionelya said: I understand what do you say but most people want to know character's thoughts and feelings. Somethimes this is the most important thing in the story for them. (Actually most of anime from manga, you know. This is the answer for why there are inner monologues in stories) I dont think character's thoughts are ruin the story. For example, I love psychological genre so I want to know sometimes their thoughts, feelings. I'm thinking that your point is not bad but there are different stories. Not all the same. I'm sure, you'll find something good for your taste If you're gonna search. It is an argument about what a story truly is, hearing thoughts and feelings are nice for many, but I claim they are not part of the story, they distract from the story. A story is dialogue, this can mean narration, action, images and everything that is part of the world. The thought process is just added explanations or exposition from nowhere. I am talking about the difference between thinking something and saying that something. If a character thinks, it affects noone, if a character talks, it affects the people that hear it. By having characters be silent rather than hearing there thoughts shows what a person truly is, they are outside the body, not inside the body. Caligula shows this masterfully by having the characters share their experience with each other. The characters can't understand each other because they have very different experience and way they talk. |
Peaceful_Critic said: Safeanew said: Isn't that what inner monologue is? I would not even call that inner monologue, that is closer to narration from first person. The difference between what I call inner monologue and first person narration, is that the first person narrator tells a story too someone, while the inner monologue is a depiction of the inner thought process. If the first person narrator adresses the audience I am for it, that is part of dialogue, but if it is a private thinking process, I would call it poetry, because it avoids talking to someone. |
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