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Hearing character's thoughts is bad storytelling!

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Apr 26, 11:05 AM
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Safeanew said:
The most important thing in storytelling is dialogue.
Hearing character's thoughts hinder dialogue by filling up moments of silence.


Not sure if this is a troll comment, but I'll bite I guess. I see where you might be coming from, but there are some stories that use inner thoughts really effectively. For instance, if we're talking about novels, Virginia Woolf's Mrs. Dalloway or To The Lighthouse are both great examples of stories where glimpsing characters' thoughts is the entire point. The novels are partly about what people think and don't say, and by giving snippets of characters' thoughts, Woolf is able to effectively portray the thematic ideas of the novels.

Some people in this thread are mentioning H x H, and while I have a lot of complaints about the way the Chimera Ant arc was handled, the characters' inner monologues were actually really interesting at times. Killua's whole character arc is developed through his thoughts and feelings about Gon, most of which he never verbalizes, due to being embarrassed. While there's such a thing as being lazy and overly relying on inner thoughts and monologues to get the viewer up to speed, there are also ways to show a character's thoughts that can really enhance a story. It just depends on the writer and what they're going for.
 
Apr 26, 11:06 AM

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I don't know. I think complete silence in certain scenes would make said scenes kind of boring.
 
Apr 26, 11:10 AM

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Setsuei said:
I don't know. I think complete silence in certain scenes would make said scenes kind of boring.


I claim that complete silence should be used more often, that can make a lot of scenes very intense.
"What is that character thinking?" is a question I would like seeing more shows use.
 
Apr 26, 11:10 AM

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Safeanew said:
Dialogue can't take the backseat because that would be the same as story taking the backseat.

-> Just read Fräulein Else or Mrs Dalloway and you will understand that this is wrong. There isn't necessarily an opposition between hearing the character's thoughts and the story progressing.The thoughts are part of the story, they are even its main driving force.

Safeanew said:
It still can be bad for storytelling even if most people enjoy it.

Yes, in your conception of storytelling, which is different that that of the majority, so to everyone else, it is irrelevant.

Safeanew said:
people like inner monologues because it is easy to understand.
This is not always true, Ulysses is a pretty hard book.
 
Apr 26, 11:14 AM
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Comander-07 said:
@changelog In fact I have not, I will check it out. So the planned season was changed into a movie? I was wondering what that was about when I suddenly saw something about a movie. Are the 3 recap movies before that required? I dont really want to mix my memory of CG with some inferior recap version. I guess it takes a few month before I will get a chance to watch the new movie anyway.
I am a fan of the
theory, so Im not too mad about a
scenario. I just dont want a potential third season effectively rendering what happened in CG a waste. Like, what would be the point of season 1 and 2 if nothing changes? Unless they go the trigger route and alienz invade.

I really hate to break it to you.



PS. By the forum set I mean the one I am using now lol. It is C.C.
Modified by changelog, Apr 26, 11:17 AM
 
Apr 26, 11:14 AM

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@Safeanew "Yes we think, but there is no inside of the mind, the mind is not a seperate place but part of language itself."
-> This is most likely scientifically wrong, it is just a topos of philosophy but neurosciences disprove it : https://www.cairn.info/revue-etudes-2001-3-page-345.htm#pa5 Language and thought are distinct, since aphasic people think.
Modified by thizlas, Apr 26, 11:21 AM
 
Apr 26, 11:24 AM
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I assume you don't really read too often. That's a shallow statement with little to no basis on actual literature or point of view settings.
“What are you scared of? Nothing good has ever come from fear.” – Kawabuchi Sentarou
 
Apr 26, 11:25 AM

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@changelog TBH Im not quite sure if I want this change. Like I said, for me R2 is the ultimate ending. Any installment after it kinda negates the achievement the ending was. Any kind of later conflict which doesnt consist of aliens renders the sacrifices useless. I am really conflicted about this one, if I understand the setup for Fukkatsu correctly, it actually builds upon the code theory, so that should be a plus. Im just not sure if I actually want to see what happens later on. The scores for the movies are also not that good compared to the series, which makes me wonder if the changes are worth it only to milk the franchise. But
is actually reason enough for me to watch it. Even though it was a crucial part of the story. I guess I just have to trust Sunrise with this.
Safeanew said:
Comander-07 said:
What a character thinks is as far away from lies as possible, unless he lies about himself.

So you say the inside of the mind does not exist?

..

Do you even think? HOW.

I think (hehe) Im onto something here.


Yes we think, but there is no inside of the mind, the mind is not a seperate place but part of language itself.
Our thoughts are just lies to make our actions meaningful to ourselves.
right... but it suddenly changes when someone speaks? Because monologues are okay as long as lips move and sound comes out?
"This emotion is mine alone.
It is for Madoka alone." - Homura
or how I would descripe Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica.
 
Apr 26, 11:35 AM

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thizlas said:
Safeanew said:
Dialogue can't take the backseat because that would be the same as story taking the backseat.

-> Just read Fräulein Else or Mrs Dalloway and you will understand that this is wrong. There isn't necessarily an opposition between hearing the character's thoughts and the story progressing.The thoughts are part of the story, they are even its main driving force.

Safeanew said:
It still can be bad for storytelling even if most people enjoy it.

Yes, in your conception of storytelling, which is different that that of the majority, so to everyone else, it is irrelevant.

Safeanew said:
people like inner monologues because it is easy to understand.
This is not always true, Ulysses is a pretty hard book.


I will look up Fräulein Else or Mrs Dalloway.

Not everyone else, there can be people that agree with me even if most don't.

Is Ulysses harder because of the inner monologues?
I am not really sold in trying to read books that use inner monologue just because they use inner monologue, but I will try the other two.
I already know my taste is strange so I am looking for people that either agree or have interesting things to say or recommend.

Even if I understand what you mean, does not mean I am wrong.
We maybe don't even agree what a story is.
A story is dialogue, everything except techniques like inner monologue are dialogue.
I claim this because inner monologue itself is the avoidance of dialogue.
 
Apr 26, 11:43 AM

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Safeanew said:
Is Ulysses harder because of the inner monologues?

I don't think it is possible to tell since there is no version without inner monologue that exists.
I'm realizing you read neither Mrs Dalloway nor Ulysses and were still talking about how bad inner monologue is, which to anyone who knows anything about literature would seem completely absurd XD But to be more serious, I encourage you to try them out, there are good reasons why they are considered to be two of the most important novels of the 20th century. If you had never heard about them, you might want to study literature y a bit more before making statements about it.
 
Apr 26, 11:44 AM

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thizlas said:
@Safeanew "Yes we think, but there is no inside of the mind, the mind is not a seperate place but part of language itself."
-> This is most likely scientifically wrong, it is just a topos of philosophy but neurosciences disprove it : https://www.cairn.info/revue-etudes-2001-3-page-345.htm#pa5 Language and thought are distinct, since aphasic people think.


What is the main arguments of that link? Aphasic people seem to still understand formulaic expressions, is there any aphasic people without any language related ability and how can one prove their intelligence.
How does one prove someone can have internal monologues?
 
Apr 26, 11:46 AM

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Comander-07 said:
@changelog TBH Im not quite sure if I want this change. Like I said, for me R2 is the ultimate ending. Any installment after it kinda negates the achievement the ending was. Any kind of later conflict which doesnt consist of aliens renders the sacrifices useless. I am really conflicted about this one, if I understand the setup for Fukkatsu correctly, it actually builds upon the code theory, so that should be a plus. Im just not sure if I actually want to see what happens later on. The scores for the movies are also not that good compared to the series, which makes me wonder if the changes are worth it only to milk the franchise. But
is actually reason enough for me to watch it. Even though it was a crucial part of the story. I guess I just have to trust Sunrise with this.
Safeanew said:


Yes we think, but there is no inside of the mind, the mind is not a seperate place but part of language itself.
Our thoughts are just lies to make our actions meaningful to ourselves.
right... but it suddenly changes when someone speaks? Because monologues are okay as long as lips move and sound comes out?


Yes because speaking is an action, inner monologue is not.
 
Apr 26, 11:53 AM

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thizlas said:
Safeanew said:
Is Ulysses harder because of the inner monologues?

I don't think it is possible to tell since there is no version without inner monologue that exists.
I'm realizing you read neither Mrs Dalloway nor Ulysses and were still talking about how bad inner monologue is, which to anyone who knows anything about literature would seem completely absurd XD But to be more serious, I encourage you to try them out, there are good reasons why they are considered to be two of the most important novels of the 20th century. If you had never heard about them, you might want to study literature y a bit more before making statements about it.


Well my claim was mostly about anime, but it is also a more general philosophical claim so it have to do with novels too.
I claim the novel The Metamorphosis would be better without inner monologue.
I still really like it, but inner monologue is a flaw.
 
Apr 26, 11:56 AM

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When I want to say something I tend to have screening in my head. I tend to talk on my mind on hypothetical scenario of what my word that I want to utter will be replied and how should I proceed after that. That's how my inner mind work.

Don't mind me because this is already 2 a.m here and I just rambling.
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Apr 26, 12:04 PM

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Well,I think there is this immense use of characters monologue because of problems due to budget and animation.There are almost any monologue in movies because you can tell from the espression of the actors.If this would happen in anime then there would be a higher number of money and time spent for getting a better animation so better facial expressions
 
Apr 26, 12:09 PM

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Safeanew said:
Setsuei said:
I don't know. I think complete silence in certain scenes would make said scenes kind of boring.


I claim that complete silence should be used more often, that can make a lot of scenes very intense.
"What is that character thinking?" is a question I would like seeing more shows use.

I get what your saying, but personally I'd rather not have to play some kind of guessing game every time there's a pause in dialogue . That may be fine for some scenes but I would argue others are better with the inner thoughts.
 
Apr 26, 12:15 PM
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Safeanew said:
Yeah the Chimera Ant Arc invasion would be better if it was completely silent.
All those thoughts distract from what is actually happening.


Then turn the volume completely of while watching it
 
Apr 26, 12:32 PM

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Stream of conscioussness appeared 100 years ago in prose as a reaction to realism and conventional narrative prose. It was influenced by the breakthroughs of Psychology during that time.
It is not a matter of bad narrative but it had to do with the fact that realism and conventional prose had become stale and a change was needed.
Joyce, Proust and William James works were and still are groundbreaking

this sums it best:

https://owlcation.com/humanities/Edouard-Dujardin-James-Joyce-and-Stream-of-Consciousness-Writing

Stream of consciousness narrative isn't for everyone. Some writers are not convinced of the technique within a novel, saying it distracts from the plot and can put the reader off. There's no doubt that some of Joyce's work is perplexing to read;innovative it may be but the average reader might liken it to a form of mental torture!

Personally I think books like Ulysses and Finnegan's Wake are best approached as poetry - you have to alter your mindset before taking them on.
 
Apr 26, 12:48 PM

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Safeanew said:
What is the main arguments of that link? Aphasic people seem to still understand formulaic expressions, is there any aphasic people without any language related ability and how can one prove their intelligence.

There are several points, and some of them far exceed my knowledge, but the main one is that there is such a thing as non-verbal thought. Among the evidence they use, are the facts that people whose part of the left hemisphere that controls language was destroyed are still able to fair well in non-verbal formal tests. What's more, the study of people whose two hemispheres were isolated shows that the right hemisphere, even though it is not the one language is located in, is capable of learning, taking decisions and making logical choices in a way that doesn't seem to be simply automatic. Some animals and humans who don't yet know/haven't been taught language are also able to think very well.

Artificial neuron networks, which seem to be able to produce thought without using language, also suggest the possibility that the brain, at its core, could think in a non-symbolic manner.
Keep in mind that the article is more than 15 years old though, and that it might be outdated. It's the only article I could easily find in French, but there are probably plenty of others in English available on the Internet. This one, for instance, seems interesting : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4874898/#
 
Apr 26, 1:11 PM

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Safeanew said:
Comander-07 said:
@changelog TBH Im not quite sure if I want this change. Like I said, for me R2 is the ultimate ending. Any installment after it kinda negates the achievement the ending was. Any kind of later conflict which doesnt consist of aliens renders the sacrifices useless. I am really conflicted about this one, if I understand the setup for Fukkatsu correctly, it actually builds upon the code theory, so that should be a plus. Im just not sure if I actually want to see what happens later on. The scores for the movies are also not that good compared to the series, which makes me wonder if the changes are worth it only to milk the franchise. But
is actually reason enough for me to watch it. Even though it was a crucial part of the story. I guess I just have to trust Sunrise with this.
right... but it suddenly changes when someone speaks? Because monologues are okay as long as lips move and sound comes out?


Yes because speaking is an action, inner monologue is not.
why is speaking to yourself an action and thinking is not? Why is it suddenly relevant if its an action?
"This emotion is mine alone.
It is for Madoka alone." - Homura
or how I would descripe Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica.
 
Apr 26, 1:14 PM
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This has always confused me. Are we hearing them narrating their thoughts inside their head or are these their unfiltered thoughts? I feel like they're supposed to be the latter, but most people would probably be unreliable narrators.
I mean, some characters literally open their mouths and talk to themselves, wtf? If it's an inside voice, sure, but when the character is walking out in public and reacting to everything, it's weird.
 
Apr 26, 1:15 PM

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EfiChan said:

Discussion is not forcing your ideas on others. It feels like the only point of this discussion is to prove yourself right and make all the other change their thoughts. In disscussion you listen to the other not just dismiss it just because it's oposing your thought.


Welcome to the average @Safeanew discussion thread. First time?
 
Apr 26, 1:19 PM

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Breaking news: my point of view is correct, your point of view is wrong, and the only arguments I can make are illogical and unsupported blanket statements.

Back to you at the studio, Jim.
 
Apr 26, 1:19 PM

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I don't agree. I think monologues are a great way to understand how a character's mind works, and what they truly think about the situation and other characters around them.
 
Apr 26, 1:21 PM

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In that case, how would you ever have a good storytelling if the MC is supposed to be someone introverted. Without the inner dialogue, it's not possible to understand the character's thoughts and beliefs.
WHEN IT RAINS, IT POURS.
 
Apr 26, 1:27 PM
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NbQuil said:
In that case, how would you ever have a good storytelling if the MC is supposed to be someone introverted. Without the inner dialogue, it's not possible to understand the character's thoughts and beliefs.

It's not like extroverts share their innermost thoughts and beliefs either. The only reason we hear the character's thoughts it's because it's adapted from a manga.
 
Apr 26, 2:57 PM

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CallMeHoot said:

Seriously man, I gotta stop replying to you soon because the more you talk, the more it is becoming obvious that you have no fucking idea what you're talking about or what actually makes a good story and I'm getting a little pissed off banging my head against this brick wall. I mean your rhetoric is bordering on delusion at this point.

You're not debating. You're provoking. Whether what you're doing here is intentional or not I don't know, but I'ma stick with the idea that you're very, very young and very, very naive.


Like i said to someone else in this thread:
"Welcome to the average Safeanew discussion thread. First time?"

Seriously, this isn't the first time this pretentious fucker puts out a pointless, idiotic garbage thread like this one. Just look up his "escapism" thread on his profile; it's even worse than this one, if you can believe it.
Contributing any reasonable argument to them is a massive waste of your time, trust me. Don't bother.
Modified by Stygian_Prisoner, Apr 26, 3:03 PM
 
Apr 26, 3:14 PM

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IpreferEcchi said:
Safeanew said:


This apply to novels too, hearing what the character thinks is bad for the novel

This is why I prefer the Harry Potter movies to the novels. Anything not in the movies is unnecessary.


It is not necessary but it's still enjoyable if one likes the series a lot
 
Apr 26, 3:16 PM

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Stygian_Prisoner said:
CallMeHoot said:

Seriously man, I gotta stop replying to you soon because the more you talk, the more it is becoming obvious that you have no fucking idea what you're talking about or what actually makes a good story and I'm getting a little pissed off banging my head against this brick wall. I mean your rhetoric is bordering on delusion at this point.

You're not debating. You're provoking. Whether what you're doing here is intentional or not I don't know, but I'ma stick with the idea that you're very, very young and very, very naive.


Like i said to someone else in this thread:
"Welcome to the average Safeanew discussion thread. First time?"

Seriously, this isn't the first time this pretentious fucker puts out a pointless, idiotic garbage thread like this one. Just look up his "escapism" thread on his profile; it's even worse than this one, if you can believe it.
Contributing any reasonable argument to them is a massive waste of your time, trust me. Don't bother.


Yeah. Shame you came in late to this particular exercise in self congratulatory delusion that this guy has vomited up from somewhere.

Guy hasn't provided a single example, or shown once HOW what he keeps stating as fact is actually proven. I mean we all know he can't, because his argument is ludicrous and entirely unfounded in logic, we know that, but I would have at least respected an honest effort to construct an example.

He just wasn't capable of it, only of spouting garbage rhetoric that had no basis in actual reality. I'm fairly sure he hasn't read a single novel. In fact, I'm not fairly sure, I am ENTIRELY sure.

Anyway, appreciate the effort to warn me off. I'll stay away from the guys threads in future for sure. He doesn't even know how to debate, let alone engage.

I think his idea of a debate is just to keep saying the same basic sentence over and over again no matter the examples people provide, however logical they may be, whilst throwing in the occasional "Oh, I will look that up! But inner monologue is still a flaw in whatever medium it is in! I can't say why that is or give an example of a work of literature where inner monologue detracts from the story but it is because I say it is so there! Ha!".

Fuck it. I'm gonna give myself a hernia if I keep thinking about how completely delusional this guy is. I'm not a violent man, but I used to be. If I was in the same room as this goon he would have lost teeth 2 pages ago.

I'm outtie. Peace, my dude :)
Like I told my last wife, I said "Honey, I never drive faster than I can see. Besides that, it's all in the reflexes." - Jack Burton
 
Apr 26, 3:19 PM

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But...but... up to 80% of my conversations in life are in my head.
 
Apr 26, 3:24 PM
*sips coffee*

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I 100%, wholeheartedly disagree. I think that inner monologues are part of what makes anime unique as a medium, as most live-action (with some exceptions) never dabble in such things. Now excessive inner monologues can be a bad thing, especially when it gets to the point of spoon-feeding the audience information, but as a matter of developing the perspective of a protagonist, that's rarely an issue.
 
Apr 26, 3:24 PM

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Sayakadark said:
But...but... up to 80% of my conversations in life are in my head.


When I read this, the "sad theme" from WataMote was playing in my head.



For anyone not familiar with WataMote, don't get the wrong idea. It's a very endearing comedy with surprising emotional heft. It's also very funny.
Like I told my last wife, I said "Honey, I never drive faster than I can see. Besides that, it's all in the reflexes." - Jack Burton
 
Apr 26, 3:24 PM

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Yay, I love when Safeanew makes a thread, like everyone is there having a discussion with OP, It's beautiful! I don't care what anyone says aout your thread, in my opinion, your shocking topics is what makes it the best. Often it would be just a simple question, like what's your favorite character from a show you don't like with most people replaying something with a title and a character. However, you put opinions out there that are interesting and unagreeable, so people actually have a conversation. Anyway, I see where you are coming from, and I partly agree.

I get if it was a different medium like books when it's necessary, but monologues are lazy most of the time. I mean, it's not inherently bad, but I don't think it's as needed as others say. Most western cartoons rarely use it, being more of a visual medium. How do they get away with that? They have the characters just do the action. You can then infer the reason. Why did Kitty Cheshire play that prank? Obviously, because that's her character she enjoys messing with people. Most shows don't need inner monologues, actions can be inferred in most cases. Stuff like tactical anime would need it(like Death Note), but that's it. Character's personalities are shown through their actions, presentation, diction, and dialogue. Monologues are unnecessary, having characters be self-aware and tell you why is worse. The reason is self-evident in their characters. They did something reckless because the character has a reckless mindset. I was watching Amagi Brilliant Park and like Measume-kun Revenge the character monologued how amazing they are when you could literally see him checking himself out. Monologues are often used as a lazy device to tell you the obvious.

Thinking back to it, I didn't notice this before, but most DR(a visual) characters don't have any if they aren't the main. The characters either infer the reason(Proof), a character tells you in a unique way to preserves your view of them(
) or it's a mystery. The end result was that characters were amazingly written for it. As an example of mystery in cases like Ouma where part of his appeal is figuring out if he's telling the truth or lying and that aspect of his character simply wouldn't be as strong if you knew the character's thought process. The characters are written with who they are in mind throuoghly, so even the most cliche' characters are enetertaining 7/10s due to the exceucation being 100% about them. It's a unique writing technique that's way most interesting than those monologues. I actually freaked out when I relieazed how that appllied here. before this thread, I didn't appericate how the characters confessions oozed their personality as well.

 
Apr 26, 3:28 PM

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I mean... why? Idk if you don't like it ok but there isn't a right storytelling or a wrong storytelling. Why hearing characters' thoughts should be bad?

I mean is just another type to tell something to the reader/listener.. I don't get your point tbh...
 
Apr 26, 3:29 PM

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Peaceful_Critic said:
Yay, I love when Safeanew makes a thread, like everyone is there having a discussion with OP, It's beautiful! I don't care what anyone says aout your thread, in my opinion, your shocking topics is what makes it the best. Often it would be just a simple question, like what's your favorite character from a show you don't like with most people replaying something with a title and a character. However, you put opinions out there that are interesting and unagreeable, so people actually have a conversation. Anyway, I see where you are coming from, and I partly agree.


Dude, don't encourage him.

Guy is 100% delusional. It would be different if he actually engaged in discourse and was capable of re-evaluating his opinion in light of concrete examples, incontrovertible counter-evidence and compelling counter-arguments...but...he isn't. He's at that pre-undergrad stage of only being able to parrot opinions he has read without applying the critical thought and analysis required to reach his own conclusion, meaning of course that every argument he makes lacks any substance at all.

I can quote Jean-Paul Sartre all day, but can I defend his ideas or views? No. Because they aren't mine and I haven't taken the time necessary to go through his larger body of work, think about it, form my own opinion, contrast it to other similar and contrasting ideas and come back with a conclusion.

This OP, he's just a parrot, man. He just repeats the same shit. Over. And over. And over. The guy suffers from the biggest case of cognitive dissonance I've ever seen, and if I'm brutally honest, shows a lot of traits seen in high functioning autism. I mean this as a clinical fact. I'm a medical scientist by trade and while my discipline is mainly molecular/cellular I've done enough background reading (and have friends with autistic children) to be fairly confident about it. I can't say for a fact, obviously, but the abstract, left field viewpoint and non-adherence to simple logic...well...I guess people can make their own mind up.

And when someone states categorically that removing the inner monologue from Fight Club would improve rather than completely destroy the movie and the story...well...at that point there isn't really anything left to say on the topic.
Modified by CallMeHoot, Apr 26, 3:42 PM
Like I told my last wife, I said "Honey, I never drive faster than I can see. Besides that, it's all in the reflexes." - Jack Burton
 
Apr 26, 3:37 PM

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Aren't you the dude that had his first philosophy class a month ago?
Yeah, I think i'm skipping this one.
The beauty of humans is that they say one thing then do another, but at the same time that can also be their ugliest side.
 
Apr 26, 3:39 PM

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Peaceful_Critic said:
Yay, I love when Safeanew makes a thread, like everyone is there having a discussion with OP, It's beautiful! I don't care what anyone says aout your thread, in my opinion, your shocking topics is what makes it the best. Often it would be just a simple question, like what's your favorite character from a show you don't like with most people replaying something with a title and a character. However, you put opinions out there that are interesting and unagreeable, so people actually have a conversation. Anyway, I see where you are coming from, and I partly agree.


Hard disagree. Being a contrarian just for the sake of being one is stupid.
The beauty of humans is that they say one thing then do another, but at the same time that can also be their ugliest side.
 
Apr 26, 3:45 PM

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CallMeHoot said:
Peaceful_Critic said:
Yay, I love when Safeanew makes a thread, like everyone is there having a discussion with OP, It's beautiful! I don't care what anyone says aout your thread, in my opinion, your shocking topics is what makes it the best. Often it would be just a simple question, like what's your favorite character from a show you don't like with most people replaying something with a title and a character. However, you put opinions out there that are interesting and unagreeable, so people actually have a conversation. Anyway, I see where you are coming from, and I partly agree.


Dude, don't encourage him.

Guy is 100% delusional. It would be different if he actually engaged in discourse and was capable of re-evaluating his opinion in light of concrete examples, incontrovertible counter-evidence and compelling counter-arguments...but...he isn't.

He just repeats the same shit. Over. And over. And over. The guy suffers from the biggest case of cognitive dissonance I've ever seen, and if I'm brutally honest, shows a lot of traits seen in high functioning autism. I mean this as a clinical fact. I'm a medical scientist by trade and while my discipline is mainly molecular/cellular I've done enough background reading (and have friends with autistic children) to be fairly confident about it. I can't say for a fact, obviously, but the abstract, left field viewpoint and non-adherence to simple logic...well...I guess people can make their own mind up.

And when someone states categorically that removing the inner monologue from Fight Club would improve rather than completely destroy the movie and the story...well...at that point there isn't really anything left to say on the topic.
"I can't say for a fact, obviously, but the abstract, left field viewpoint and non-adherence to simple logic...well...I guess people can make their own mind up." why is non-adherence to simple logic a symptom of autism? I get the widely different viewpoint, as the brain works differently as to make someone obsessive or not understand social cues, but memory and other intelligence aren't part of it. Also, please back up your claims.

 
Apr 26, 3:51 PM

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Peaceful_Critic said:
CallMeHoot said:


Dude, don't encourage him.

Guy is 100% delusional. It would be different if he actually engaged in discourse and was capable of re-evaluating his opinion in light of concrete examples, incontrovertible counter-evidence and compelling counter-arguments...but...he isn't.

He just repeats the same shit. Over. And over. And over. The guy suffers from the biggest case of cognitive dissonance I've ever seen, and if I'm brutally honest, shows a lot of traits seen in high functioning autism. I mean this as a clinical fact. I'm a medical scientist by trade and while my discipline is mainly molecular/cellular I've done enough background reading (and have friends with autistic children) to be fairly confident about it. I can't say for a fact, obviously, but the abstract, left field viewpoint and non-adherence to simple logic...well...I guess people can make their own mind up.

And when someone states categorically that removing the inner monologue from Fight Club would improve rather than completely destroy the movie and the story...well...at that point there isn't really anything left to say on the topic.
"I can't say for a fact, obviously, but the abstract, left field viewpoint and non-adherence to simple logic...well...I guess people can make their own mind up." why is non-adherence to simple logic a symptom of autism? I get the widely different viewpoint, as the brain works differently as to make someone obsessive or not understand social cues, but memory and other intelligence aren't part of it. Also, please back up your claims.


I never mentioned memory or basic intelligence. I said simple logic but maybe I was wrong and should have said "simple reasoning". Allow me to re-phrase. His obsessive, immovable viewpoint is an autistic trait.

Like I said, I didn't state anything as fact, I just said he showed traits, which he does.

What claims do you want me to back up? That the guy has spent 5 pages talking nonsense while blithely ignoring every counterpoint and argument directly disproving the trash he was spouting? Go read my post history in this thread (and the rest of the thread while you're at it), it's all there.

Modified by CallMeHoot, Apr 26, 4:01 PM
Like I told my last wife, I said "Honey, I never drive faster than I can see. Besides that, it's all in the reflexes." - Jack Burton
 
Apr 26, 3:51 PM

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AstZero said:
Peaceful_Critic said:
Yay, I love when Safeanew makes a thread, like everyone is there having a discussion with OP, It's beautiful! I don't care what anyone says aout your thread, in my opinion, your shocking topics is what makes it the best. Often it would be just a simple question, like what's your favorite character from a show you don't like with most people replaying something with a title and a character. However, you put opinions out there that are interesting and unagreeable, so people actually have a conversation. Anyway, I see where you are coming from, and I partly agree.


Hard disagree. Being a contrarian just for the sake of being one is stupid.
Ah, we disagree, get in line. #the30characterlimitisusefuluntilyouspamorhastagit

 
Apr 26, 4:14 PM

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Wow, this is honestly one of the most stupid things i've ever read.



"At least I... wasn't boring, right?" – Kokichi Ouma
 
Apr 26, 4:16 PM

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Oh, as an aside, for anyone keeping up with this debacle, the OP seems to have conflated "stream of consciousness" writing with "inner monologue" and thinks the two are essentially the same thing.

You don't even need to be widely read or to have studied literature to know that's not the case. If you have a brain and Google, you can figure it out.
Like I told my last wife, I said "Honey, I never drive faster than I can see. Besides that, it's all in the reflexes." - Jack Burton
 
Apr 26, 4:24 PM

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First of all, to imply a tool in storytelling itself is bad is wrongheaded. It is only as good or bad as the author/screenwriter/director utilizes it.

Second of all, inner monologues are different from straight exposition. While straight exposition is just dumping info about the world or story, inner monologues have a special conditions that makes them useful storytelling tools. One, that they can convey or emphasize ideas that otherwise would not be able to merely be shown, and two, the narrator of an inner monologue is not omnipresent of a situation i.e. they have their own voice that may not reliably reflect the reality of their world. Also known as unreliable narrators. By saying inner monologues are bad, you are also saying unreliable narrators are bad, which is wrong and stupid because they often make for really engaging stories.
 
Apr 26, 4:35 PM

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CallMeHoot said:
Peaceful_Critic said:
"I can't say for a fact, obviously, but the abstract, left field viewpoint and non-adherence to simple logic...well...I guess people can make their own mind up." why is non-adherence to simple logic a symptom of autism? I get the widely different viewpoint, as the brain works differently as to make someone obsessive or not understand social cues, but memory and other intelligence aren't part of it. Also, please back up your claims.


I never mentioned memory or basic intelligence. I said simple logic but maybe I was wrong and should have said "simple reasoning". Allow me to re-phrase. His obsessive, immovable viewpoint is an autistic trait.

Like I said, I didn't state anything as fact, I just said he showed traits, which he does.

What claims do you want me to back up? That the guy has spent 5 pages talking nonsense while blithely ignoring every counterpoint and argument directly disproving the trash he was spouting? Go read my post history in this thread (and the rest of the thread while you're at it), it's all there.

Are you sure? it wasn't listed: https://www.medicinenet.com/autism_symptoms_and_signs/symptoms.htm

What an unfair comparison:

"She stormed across the room and slammed the door on her way out."

"She felt anger rise in her, like black bile in her throat. The door slammed as she stormed out.".
You put extra more expressive words there like "black bile in her throat" with wording that flowed better.

" About to murder them Eliza red-faced with steam flowing out of her head slammed the door as she stormed out."
There you go, a better example =).

Okay, sorry, we weren't talking about that. Yeah, I see what you mean as when you asked for a more solid example they didn't give you one instead stating why they thought that: "This is a philosophical stance inspired by a philosopher and literary critic named Mikhail Bakhtin that is specialised on novels. He claims that everything is dialogues and that the novels main task is to depict dialogue based on ones own experience with dialogue. He is agaisnt what he calls poetic language that is unambigous language. Language should always be portrayed in an ambigous form."

However, to criticize you a little, you were mean("I think it's very naive of you (and perhaps you aren't as well read as you might think) if you are under the false assumption that "dialogue is everything", because it simply isn't.") What they said is an opinion, why attack their character already? "The nicest way possible thing", just highlights how this is an insult.

 
Apr 26, 4:36 PM

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*sigh* Whelp! Enough MAL for me today.
 
Apr 26, 4:38 PM

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AyumiVk said:
Wow, this is honestly one of the most stupid things i've ever read.
I agree with it, read my post on this page, and fight me on it.

 
Apr 26, 4:39 PM

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honest to god - returning to this thread i hoped for reason and resolution, instead i'm reading about turning the volume down of media and using games that restrict exposure to literary devices for gameplay as supporting statements for OP.

i can confirm this exemplary discussion has truly hit rock bottom and all participants should face the mountain in single combat.
 
Apr 26, 4:43 PM

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Peaceful_Critic said:
AstZero said:


Hard disagree. Being a contrarian just for the sake of being one is stupid.
Ah, we disagree, get in line. #the30characterlimitisusefuluntilyouspamorhastagit


Aight, have fun engaging in pointless discourse but i'm peacing out.
Modified by AstZero, Apr 26, 5:04 PM
The beauty of humans is that they say one thing then do another, but at the same time that can also be their ugliest side.
 
Apr 26, 4:49 PM

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I disagree. Some of the brightest minds have the loudest minds, but are quiet most of the time.

Speaking is silver, while silence is gold.
That 30+ year old boomer that teaches paleontology during a hentai review on MAL. *sips*
Anime was indeed a mistake, since we prefer 2D waifu's over 3D wamen.
 
Apr 26, 4:49 PM

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Sad said:
honest to god - returning to this thread i hoped for reason and resolution, instead i'm reading about turning the volume down of media and using games that restrict exposure to literary devices for gameplay as supporting statements for OP.

i can confirm this exemplary discussion has truly hit rock bottom and all participants should face the mountain in single combat.
This is a response to my post, correct? Alright, gonna assume it is as you judging how you said it like it was obviously stupid(you probably aren't gonna respond to me). As a side note, this isn't for you, moreso me or others reading the thread as you made an interesting point

The fact that the game could do that stands as proof that you don't need it(which was my main point:" I mean, it's not inherently bad, but I don't think it's as needed as others say.") I explained why I liked the characters for the lack of monologue and how missing that element could make them stronger("As an example of mystery in cases like Ouma where part of his appeal is figuring out if he's telling the truth or lying and that aspect of his character simply wouldn't be as strong if you knew the character's thought process.").
Modified by Peaceful_Critic, Apr 26, 5:08 PM

 
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